452: Fessing Up to Security Clearance Sex Lies | Feedback Friday

Transcript for Fessing Up to Security Clearance Sex Lies | Feedback Friday (Episode 452)

Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host Jordan Harbinger. Today, I'm here with feedback Friday, producer, my FBF BFF, Gabriel Mizrahi. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. We want to help you see that Matrix when it comes to how these amazing people think and behave. And our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. So you can get a deeper understanding of how the world works and make sense of what's really happening even inside your own mind.

[00:00:37] If you're new to this show on Fridays, we give advice to you and answer listener questions. The rest of the week, we have long-form interviews and conversations with a variety of amazing folks from spies to CEOs, athletes to authors, thinkers, and performers. If you want to check out a selection of featured episodes to get you started with some of our favorite guests and popular topics, go to jordanharbinger.com and we'll hook you up.

[00:01:00] Couple of interesting guests this week, we had Frank Maderal discussing gold smuggling. So gold smuggled — I had no idea gold smuggling was such a thing, and apparently, it is happening literally by the ton from Central America, South America. It is happening from all over the world. Of course, Africa as well — harder to get the gold from Africa to the USA, but it's just a massive, massive human trafficking problem, human rights problem, environmental problem. It is just a massive, massive, disgusting mess. And I had no idea that's how far — I had no idea how far this sweater would unravel once I started pulling on the thread of gold smuggling. So check that out. 

[00:01:36] We also had one from the vault with Jason Silva. He's kind of like a — Jason is almost like a psychedelic philosopher. He hosts Brain Games on National Geographic. You've probably seen them all over TV. Super interesting guy, definitely on a different wavelength than myself. And you can tell from our discussion that we get along, even though we are two extremely, extremely different people. So check the episodes out from this week, if you haven't yet. Super interesting stuff there as usual, or at least I'd like to think.

[00:02:00] So make sure you've had a look and to listen to everything we created for you here this week, you can reach us for these advice shows friday@jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails as concise as you can. Try to include a descriptive subject line. That does make our job a whole lot easier. If there's something you're going through, any big decision that you are wrestling with, or you just want a new perspective on stuff — life love, work coping with your partner's manic rants, whatever's got you staying up at night lately. Hit us up at friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we will keep you anonymous for sure. 

[00:02:34] It's the end of the year, Gabriel. I wanna, I want to give some parting words for 2020 good riddance. For many people, good riddance. For us, you know, I don't know. It's mixed. It's a mixed bag. 

[00:02:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, we need a little tribute. 

[00:02:44] Jordan Harbinger: But here we are, here we are our final episode of 2020. So what a year? Huh? I don't even know how to sum this one up, Gabe. It was definitely one for the books. That's all I can say. I think 2020 has been an experience for everyone. For some people, it was devastating. For other people, it was inspiring in a lot of ways. It was an absolute horror show. And in other ways, it brought us some much-needed perspective. There have been highs and lows and a whole lot of middle. And I'm sure we're going to be feeling the effects of this year for decades, many of us. Between the panny-D and the election and everything else that went down this year, 2020 will probably be a defining period for our generation for better or for worse. And probably a good chunk of 2021, depending on when the vaccine arrives and we can safely get back on airplanes and all that.

[00:03:36] For me personally, 2020 was huge. It was the third year of The Jordan Harbinger Show. I know only the third year, my 14th year podcasting as well. And our biggest year by far, including any of my previous years doing a podcast of any kind. I had the honor of interviewing people like Mark Cuban and Amanda Knox, Ray Dalio, Cheryl Strayed, and H.R. McMaster, Oliver Stone to name just a few. I took 72 of you to a maximum-security prison for my 40th birthday to volunteer at an educational program. And for most of you, that was the last vacation you took in 2020. So you went to a maximum-security prison with some podcaster turd from the Internet. Yikes. Probably not how any of us thought this year would play out.

[00:04:23] I loved answering your listener questions on Feedback Friday. 250 questions this year. Is that right, Gabriel? That's got to be about, about, right? 

[00:04:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. That's exactly it. Yeah. 250. 

[00:04:34] Jordan Harbinger: That's been one of the most rewarding parts of doing this show and we just found out that The Jordan Harbinger Show now gets over 10 million downloads per month which is bananas. I think we started off the year with something like half of that. Truly incredible to me. I think it took me years to get to the first million downloads. And now we're getting 10 million downloads every single month. A lot of days, I can't believe this is my job. I love it so damn much. I get to do all of this while hanging out with my incredible wife, Jen, my amazing son, Jayden, who is growing up in the same house, where I record the show. And all in all, I just feel insanely proud and incredibly lucky. 

[00:05:13] But I got to say, none of this would be possible without you. You all have listened to this show. You've shared your stories with us. You've supported our sponsors. You've shared the show with people you love. You've shared the show with people that you don't love, and I could not be more grateful for that. I really do try to produce the show that I would want to hear. And I can't tell you how much it means that you guys want to hear it too. So thank you all for being part of our family. 

[00:05:38] Look, we talk about this all the time? I honestly feel that we have the greatest show fans in the world. You guys are smart, curious, generous, just super cool, and giving. And I want to thank you for making this very weird and challenging year, a year of growth and a year of connection. It means the world to us. It means the world to me. And I'm so happy that we found each other through this show. And I'm pumped for all of the amazing things we get to share with you in 2021. 

[00:06:04] But you didn't push play to hear me get all sappy. You came here to give thanks, that you're not one of the people writing in about something horrible in your life happening right now. And you want to see if you agree with my advice to those people that did. Am I right? So Gabe, what's the first thing out of the mailbag? 

[00:06:21] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe, I work in a large organization that requires its employees to have security clearance. This is no big deal. We just have periodic interviews every few years to make sure we're not in a position that makes us vulnerable to blackmail, such as being in debt, being involved in criminal activity, that sort of thing. The company doesn't care what its employees get up to so long as it's disclosed. Five years ago, I had a secret affair with a friend and colleague I had known for a few years. I was single, but I knew that he had been in an on-again-off-again relationship for about 10 years. This affair was really passionate and lasted six months before he concluded that it would be too much hassle to leave his long-term girlfriend. I was devastated. He was really the one, but for the sake of working together, we remained on good terms, at least on the face of it, but it seriously affected my mental health. I had never felt so worthless. Fast forward 18 months when he is now married to the girlfriend and with a baby on the way and is now my direct line manager. He asks me not to disclose our affair to the vetting agency as he could lose his clearance. I thought he was overreacting, but I was still so distressed by the events that I agreed. I had my interview and said nothing about our affair. This particular time was freaking awful, Jordan. I mean, not wanting to live anymore, but not having the willpower to end it. Five years later, I'm in a much better place. I've been thinking for a while now about coming clean to the vetting agency, as I'm sure it's not a big deal. It's not like having an affair is a slippery slope to selling secrets to Russia or something. I wouldn't want to do this behind his back. So I've been meaning to speak with him about it. However, I recently discovered from another colleague that he had slept with someone else around the time of his engagement, and initially lied about the dates to the vetting agency, which was a big deal. I don't believe that his second affair is my business, but I do believe he should have told me the full reasons why his vetting was at risk when he asked me to lie, instead of guilting me into it. Now, I still want to come clean, but I don't want them to think that this is some sort of revenge. Do you have any advice on how I should tackle the issue of cleaning my vetting slate and managing his reaction to this decision? Signed, Complicated Clearance Conundrum.

[00:08:28] Jordan Harbinger: Well, this is definitely one of the toughest workplace questions that we've gotten. And that's saying a lot for this show. I'm very sorry. That you're in this situation. I can hear how conflicted you are about this. And I'm sure it's been hard to sit with for the past few years. I'm getting a real Dostoyevsky vibe from this letter, Gabe.

[00:08:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: Totally.

[00:08:46] Jordan Harbinger: It's like Danielle Steele wrote Crime and Punishment, but it's set inside the NSA or the CIA or something. Yeah, there's a professional part of this and there's a personal part of this. So let's try and pick this apart and figure out what the right move is here. And by the way, we consulted on this with a former CIA official, a guy at the DOJ, and a high-level security official in DC who has been through the clearance process several times. So I hope we can offer you a few different angles here from people that know what they're talking about when it comes to this. 

[00:09:16] So I hear that you really want to get this off your chest, and I totally understand that. But before we get into that, let's get real clear on whether you actually lied in your clearance interview. If your interviewer asked you a bunch of questions, but none of them were directly about any romantic relationships with your colleagues. And you just decided not to bring up this affair because it wasn't within scope. Then according to the security official we consulted with, that's probably not a lie and it's not material. And there's no good reason to go confess anything because you didn't do anything wrong. It's just a personal issue that you're wrestling with and you feel guilty about the way that you handled it, but it has nothing to do with your character. And so you don't need to bring it up and you probably shouldn't.

[00:09:58] But if your interviewer asked you point-blank, "Have you had any romantic relationships with your colleagues?" or something along those lines and you looked them right in the eye and said, "Nope, never happened." Then, yeah, that's much more of a problem. You were probably under oath. You probably signed paperwork saying something like to the best of my knowledge, all these answers given are true. In which case I could see why you might feel the need to come clean because you clearly violated the law and the procedure. And that might, might eventually come to light down the road in a polygraph or an interview if you ever wanted to, I don't know, work at the DIA or the CIA or the NSA or something like that. 

[00:10:36] That said, we need to get clear on what this affair really means in context. Because these vetting folks, what they're really looking for in these clearance interviews, they're looking for patterns of behavior that lead to compromise. They're trying to figure out: Are you trustworthy? Is there anything in your character or your behavior that could make you vulnerable to compromise? And to suss that out, they usually use a framework called Micer. M-I-C-E-R, which stands for money, ideology, coercion, ego, and revenge. That's why they ask you stuff. Like, "Do you have credit card debt? Have you ever declared bankruptcy? Are you a radical white supremacist? Do you have a massive ego? Are you nursing any grudges?" Obviously, they don't phrase things like that, but that's what they're aiming at because those are the pressure points that would allow someone to exploit you. That could lead you to make some dangerous decisions. 

[00:11:27] But you, you don't seem to fit into any of those categories. You had a consensual relationship as an unmarried person with another person who was also unmarried at the time. It might be messy. It might be a little unsavory. Sure. But it's not compromising. Even if you were a promiscuous person, that's really not these people's business. And they're not really after that. Now, if you were married and you had a top-secret clearance and you were just being completely reckless and some guy named Uri from Moscow took photos of you, make it out with a guy in a Cold Stone Creamery on K Street, and then use the photos to blackmail you for a list of foreign bank accounts. That would be an issue of compromise. That would be an angle of compromise. And that's the kind of stuff that Russian and other intelligence agencies do — kompromat, right? That's what the clearance people are really worried about. And yes, I realized that example was oddly specific and I'm okay with that, but that's not what happened.

[00:12:18] Neither of you were married when the affair took place. So it doesn't really open you up to blackmail. Plus, it was quite some time ago now and nothing terrible has happened as a result. So from a security standpoint, you probably didn't do anything wrong here. Ask any security professional. They'll tell you they are not the morality police. They don't care what you get up to in your personal life. They only care if it's a risk and the security expert we spoke with. He said something really interesting. He said that he's pretty sure that there are tons of swingers. You know, people who like wife swap and all that, or husbands swap too, who have high-level security clearances, just to put things in perspective a little bit there.

[00:12:58] So given all of that, if you didn't explicitly lie in your interview, then I don't think there's a compelling reason for you to disclose this affair. If you did, you could face some pretty serious implications, hard to say what exactly. It could be anything from being reprimanded to possibly being fired. I don't know your company. I don't know your duties inside the company. So we can't say for sure what would happen. But if you did get fired for this, then you have to disclose that fact when you apply to other jobs that require a security clearance. Not a great look all for something that probably nobody cares about something that has no bearing on your integrity. And if you came clean, you might also compromise this guy's job too, but I'll get to him in a second. 

[00:13:39] Gabe, given all that, Why does she want to come clean all of a sudden here? What are you thinking? 

[00:13:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, I wonder if what might be happening here is that her personal feelings about this decision and about this guy way back when they might be getting wrapped up in the professional considerations. And I know that you said that it's not about revenge and I totally hear you. I believe you. But I do get the sense that you feel maybe a little bit ashamed and pretty angry at this guy for putting you in this position. Although I do have to say that you both put yourself in this position no matter what the circumstances, just to be totally fair here. And I wonder if coming clean to the vetting people if maybe that's a way to resolve your feelings about this. Feelings that are ultimately personal as Jordan is pointing out that are none of your company's business whatsoever. 

[00:14:23] Because these security people, they are not the morality police, correct. But they're also not your therapist, right? They're not going to help you work through your conflicts or, you know, help you resolve your shame or whatever. That's something only you can do. And you should do with a therapist if you don't already have one. And look, I'm really happy to hear that you're doing better now. That's great news, but I am picking up on a few things in the letter that do concern me a little bit. You mentioned the toll that this relationship took on your mental health, near breakdown you had at work, the low-key suicidal ideation, the feelings of worthlessness. And I'm not judging you for any of that. We've all been through breakups. They're horrible. We know what that's like, trust me, but those feelings, those are things that you need to dig into with a professional.

[00:15:03] And if you do, you might find that you don't actually need to come clean to the vetting people at all because you're unburdening yourself to someone who's trained someone who can help you work through this stuff on your own. And I'm guessing that this job probably creates all kinds of other stressors besides this affair. So having someone to talk to. Yeah, that's really important for somebody in your position. So if you're not already seeing someone, I recommend looking for a good therapist ASAP, and I don't know, maybe binge-watching the Americans on FX because something tells me that show is going to really resonate with you right about now. 

[00:15:35] As for this guy that you had the relationship with, I'm guessing this is where Jordan was going to go with us. All I can say is that that guy is a piece of work. 

[00:15:43] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, he's just scumbag for real.

[00:15:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:15:44] Jordan Harbinger: Totally.

[00:15:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm actually a lot more concerned about his integrity than I am about yours. And I know that everybody's personal life is complicated and we don't know this guy intimately. He's not the one writing in all of that but based on what you've shared. Yeah, it sounds like a bit of a scumbag — and sure, maybe he was an immature chode back then, and now he's happily married and he's straightened out, but here's a guy who has a questionable pattern of behavior because if you're being a massive dirtbag, when it comes to sex, odds are your ethics are probably relaxed in other ways, too. Enemies, hackers, foreign agents, they could easily go after someone like that in a heartbeat. And if they don't have enough material to compromise him right now, they could just buy their time spot and assess, as they say in the intelligence world, gathering kompromat for the future because this type of behavior is exactly what they're looking for.

[00:16:29] But honestly, I don't know if there's anything for you to report here. You know, you're right, his other affair. Which probably bothered you quite a bit. That's none of your business. You're correct. And if he's being a consummate professional at work now, and he is able to separate your past from your working relationship, then I would just let that go. As gross and irresponsible as this guy has been, I'm not sure that he should be crucified for something in his personal life that isn't affecting his performance. He has a wife, he has a kid, he has a good job. And if you come clean now, you could really jeopardize his life as well as your own. 

[00:17:00] So as much as possible, I would just stay away from this guy. I mean, obviously don't start up the affair again. I'm guessing you already know that. Probably don't get too close, closest friends. I would keep it profesh. And if you find yourself getting into ongoing conflicts with this guy, then just approach him directly, have a conversation, work through your stuff together privately. As far as we can tell, based on the people we've talked to and thinking about your letter pretty deeply, there's no need to air your dirty laundry on a polygraph like your, I don't know, Matt Damon's son of The Good Shepherd or something like that. 

[00:17:27] Jordan Harbinger: So that's our take. If you explicitly lied, then you might have to come clean, but you're going to have to weigh the upside of that against the considerable downside. If you did not explicitly lie, then you almost certainly do not have to come clean and you should really investigate your own reasons for wanting to do so. If you need more legal insight, book a call with a security clearance attorney, and get their advice. It will be worth the money to just have that opinion and all the rest of this — Gabe's right. That's probably between you and your therapist. And going forward — and for anyone else listening, who might find themselves in a situation like this one day, here's the takeaway: Do not lie under oath, do not sleep with your coworkers, especially if they are shacked up and or engaged to somebody else. You'll save yourself a ton of grief in your life. If you just follow these two rules, especially if you have a security clearance or you work in a high-pressure field like this. 

[00:18:22] I know life can get messy. It doesn't have to be a good question to ask yourself, is, "Will I regret doing this in a year? Will I have to lie or cover my tracks because of this?" If the answer is yes, just walk away every single time.

[00:18:41] You're listening to Feedback Friday here on The Jordan Harbinger Show. We'll be right back. 

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[00:19:29] Jen Harbinger: Taser is available without a permit in most US states. Get the Taser Pulse+ or Taser StrikeLight at taser.com, promo code JORDAN. Save 15 percent now at taser.com, promo code JORDAN. T-A-S-E-R.com, code JORDAN. Restrictions apply. See site for details. 

[00:19:48] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by Better Help. I love therapy. I love recommending therapy. I think one of the best things I've ever done for myself was to get therapy even when I thought there's no problem here. And then he'd go there and I'm like, "Actually, there's a lot of stuff that's kind of nagging at me." The problem was driving across town, parking, getting an appointment with Better Help. All of that just sort of fades away. You fill out a questionnaire to help assess your specific needs. They'll match you with a counselor and under 48 hours. You can easily secure a video or phone session. You can chat, text your therapist. It's all at your convenience. Anytime zone works. Everything you share is confidential. You can always switch counselors if you don't really click. You know, you kind of need to vibe with your therapist. So if you don't, you can always switch to a new one with Better Help. And again, I think this is a great time of year to dip your toes in the waters of therapy, regained some sanity or locked down the sanity that you still have or just make sure that you are on the right track with somebody who you can trust who has training, listening to you, helping you through some of this stuff at work or at home. I really think it's a great option. 

[00:20:50] Jen Harbinger: Better Help is an affordable option. And our listeners get 10 percent off your first month with the discount code JORDAN. Get started today at betterhelp.com/jordan. Talk to a therapist online and get help.

[00:21:01] Jordan Harbinger: And now back to Feedback Friday on The Jordan Harbinger Show. 

[00:21:07] All right, what's next? 

[00:21:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. A week ago, my 54-year-old uncle, who was one of my best friends, very suddenly and unexpectedly passed away from heart disease. It was hard for the whole family to accept the fact that he is not with us anymore, especially because in our eyes, we saw him as this man who was always happy and full of life. After the loss, we all started acknowledging something we all knew, but that none of us wanted to admit my uncle had not been fine for the last five years. We all saw the signs he had started to withdraw. He could not be as physically active as it used to be. He became depressed and negative and so on. The full of life, sarcastic, and a funny person we knew was just a mask although we felt his pain, none of us had the guts to truly confront him about what we saw. We tried to talk to him, but he could be very dismissive about his feelings and his health. We thought that what he needed was time, but time was the one thing he was running out of. I told myself so many times, "Call him. Go have a coffee with him. Just let him know that he has a friend in me. And I would like to stand by his side." Just an open talk between two dudes, no judgment. No, "this is what you have to do" type stuff, just open heartfelt communication. But I never mustered up the courage. And now he's gone. A part of me feels that talking would not have saved him, but another part of me feels that deep down. I knew something was wrong and I did nothing because I was afraid I would get on his nerves. Now, I know that this was just an excuse to avoid the unpleasant feeling of opening up and risking rejection from one of my best friends. I know I should forgive myself for this and I will, but how can I, when I felt his pain and stood idly by like nothing was wrong. What kind of friend of mine? What kind of person am I if I just let one of my best friends suffer alone? My uncle left behind two children. His daughter is 25 and strong, but his son is 15 and I can see that he's hurting although he doesn't show it — like father, like son, I want to be there for him, but I don't know how to approach him. How do I get close to him and let him know that I'm there for him? I have all this doubt and even worse the feeling that I'm now compensating for lost time with my uncle. Why am I now suddenly willing to help when, before I had no problem suppressing my feelings and acting like everything was fine. I know I'll be okay, but I don't want to repeat the same mistake with my cousin or with my dad or my sister or anyone who truly matters to me in my life. Do you guys have any hints or tips to guide me through this? You guys are the best! Greetings from Slovenia. Signed, Finding Relief from the Disbelief of My Grief. 

[00:23:30] Jordan Harbinger: Well, I'm so sorry to hear about your uncle, man. I can hear how painful this loss is for you. It really comes through in the letter. Doesn't it, Gabe? 

[00:23:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, yeah, he sounds like he's in pain.

[00:23:39] Jordan Harbinger: It sounds like he was a really cool guy, a great friend. I can just tell, you miss him a lot. And I've had to say goodbye to a few people like that in my own life. And it is never easy. You're still very early in the morning period for your uncle. And I'm sure it's bringing up a lot of stuff about him, about you, about what kind of person you want to be. In the Kübler-Ross stages of grief, you're probably somewhere in the anger/bargaining/depression phases, sort of toggling among these three, as you might imagine, another way that this could have gone, right? You're going through it right now. And that's very normal. Just know that it does get easier with time. The first few weeks are by far the most intense by all accounts.

[00:24:20] I got to say, I can't help, but feel that you're being extremely hard on yourself here. I'm hearing a lot of guilt in your letter, a lot of self-blame, and you feel responsible in some ways for your uncle's death and you regret not intervening sooner, which maybe that's true. And I can understand why you would wonder about that. But you also need to remember that your uncle, he was his own person making his own decisions. He could have spoken up, but he didn't. And when you guys tried to talk to him, he dismissed you. On some other level, he didn't want to be helped. And as painful as it is, you have to recognize that and know that it was ultimately not your job to save him. Also, he's an older Slovenian guy. This is the former Yugoslavia for people that don't know right. 

[00:25:05] Slovenia is one of the Yugoslav republics that came out of the dissolution of Yugoslavia. So after living in the former Yugoslavia Serbia, which we just did an episode about in part, about my time there, my kidnap there. I was there for like a year and a half. So I kind of get the feeling that the older generation there doesn't really make it easy to be all touchy, feely, emotional, and open up. So I understand your hesitation there. 

[00:25:30] Gabe, where do you think the sense of guilt is coming from? 

[00:25:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, what happened it does make sense that this guy is angry. Your uncle, he was a wonderful guy, it sounds like but he also struggled as Jordan is pointing out to be vulnerable, to be authentic. He made it hard for you guys to really be there for him. He even had trouble relating to himself from the sound of it. And now you're left sitting with a lot of feelings about that. And I think what might be happening here is that you might be turning all of those feelings, especially the anger inward. And my guess is that you're doing that because inward is the only place it feels like those feelings can go. You probably want to be mad at your uncle, but he's gone. And you want to be mad at your family, but you don't want to hurt them. And you want to be mad at the whole situation, but that's too abstract. So instead you're probably internalizing all of this rage and all of this sadness, and you're directing it toward yourself because that feels like the only safe way to process it. And because internalizing those feelings probably give you a sense of control in a situation where I'm imagining you feel pretty out of control having just lost somebody. 

[00:26:30] Jordan, it's almost like if he can just take all of this sadness and all the anger and turn it against himself, which he then experiences as guilt. If he can do that, then nobody else will have to bear the burden of it. And he can just work it out on his own somehow. But that's not working it out, right? That's tearing yourself down. That's taking on somebody else's problem. That's basically depression, you know, in a nutshell. That's how you go from. I'm so mad at my uncle for not being honest with me about his health too, "Am I a bad person? Am I a bad friend?" Which is what we're hearing the letter.

[00:26:59] And like you said that approach to emotions, it kind of runs in your family. Maybe it runs through the whole country. So it would make sense that that's how you learn how to deal, but you should know that there's a better way to do it. And I'm really glad to hear that you have a therapist because that's going to be very helpful. Because you can't really mourn until you acknowledge your true feelings, not just the ones that you want to have, the ones you wish you could have, or the ones that you've changed magically by turning them against yourself, but all of those feelings fully and honestly. So I think that's probably where a lot of the guilt is coming from.

[00:27:27] Jordan, how do you think you should approach his cousin? I know he was wondering about that. 

[00:27:30] Jordan Harbinger: I think it's great that you want to be there for your cousin. That's really touching, especially because the guy's a teenager, right? Did he say it was like 15 years old? 

[00:27:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: 15, yeah. 

[00:27:39] Jordan Harbinger: So he might be a tough nut to crack kind of like his dad, but I bet he could really use a friend right now, especially an older guy because he just lost his dad. 

[00:27:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. 

[00:27:50] Jordan Harbinger: And I hear you, it's hard to approach somebody who just lost his father, but you guys have a shared experience where you're connected in your grief. You could call them up. You could take them out for a walk. You could ask him how he's doing. If he won't open up, then you can go first. You can tell him how much his dad meant to you, how much you miss him. You could tell him a little bit about how you've been feeling lately. That you've been struggling, how to process the loss. If you can open up to him, I bet it'll make him feel safer, opening up to you and possibly to anyone else. Like for all we know, this is a 15-year-old kid dealing with this just by bottling it up. 

[00:28:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yep. 

[00:28:27] Jordan Harbinger: Who knows what the emotional environment is like in the family? You know, it might take some time. You might have to be patient with them, but just knowing that there's somebody there that he can talk to that huge. You can always tell him, "Listen, man, I know how hard it is to talk about stuff in our family. I know your dad never wanted to talk about this stuff, but I want you to know that there's no shame in it. I'm always here to listen. I'm here to hang out whenever you need." Maybe you check in on him every few days. Maybe you dry them out a little slowly. 

[00:28:56] The thing with grief is when someone dies everyone there for the first two weeks or even the first month. But then like three months later when they're still grieving and everyone else has moved on, that's when the loneliness kicks in.

[00:29:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:29:09] Jordan Harbinger: Because then it's like, "Oh, everyone's moved on. Am I being weird? Am I drag on people? Maybe I shouldn't talk about it. No one else is talking about it anymore. You know, everyone else has moved on." That's when people feel the most alone and the most down. So make sure you stick with him for even the next couple of years, especially if he's 15. He might not even begin to process this for like a year or two. He might just be in shock and just be kind of too young to really deal with it. And in a healthy and adult way, eventually, he'll share something and you can build on your relationship from there. 

[00:29:41] As for your conflict around reaching out to him because you feel like you're compensating for lost time with your uncle, my question for you is, is there even anything wrong with that? You've gone through a really profound experience here. You're realizing that time is the most precious thing we have as cliche as it might sound. And now you know that you don't want to squander it. So if losing your uncle makes you more proactive in your relationships, if it makes you more available and present as a person, that's only a good thing. That kind of understanding that's what gives an event like this meaning. And that's an important part of grieving to create meaning out of loss.

[00:30:19] So when you ask why you're suddenly willing to help now when before you had no problems suppressing your feelings and acting like everything was fine. The answer is because you are growing, you're growing as a person. You're learning that life is precious. That your relation, that our relationships matter, that if we're going to be there for people, we have to be there right now when it's not convenient, when you're busy, when you don't feel like dealing with their stuff because nothing is guaranteed. Like you said you don't want to repeat the same mistake with your cousin. So now is your chance to decide that you won't.

[00:30:50] Now this is not the same example. But several years ago now — when I was an exchange student in Germany, I had a host family, right? I had a brother, a host father, a host mother, and they were awesome and I was close with them. And then when I moved back to the United States. I went to college, barely kept in touch. I mean, we kept in touch, but it was like, not that strong because they didn't use the Internet much. So we'd mail stuff on Christmas or whatever I'd call like once every year or something. And then I started a business and I moved to New York and then I moved to LA and then one day my host brother, who I hadn't probably talked to at that point in like eight months or longer, he was like, "Hey, mom has cancer." And I was like, "Oh my gosh, let me book a flight." He's like, "Dude, no, she's — you can't even make it in time. You can't even send a card before she passes away. Like she has like hours left to live, maybe a couple of days and you don't want to see her like this." And she passed away. And I remember telling my host brother, his name is Florian. We're still in touch. He goes, "Yeah. I mean, that's the thing with funerals and deaths, you know, it brings everyone closer." 

[00:31:49] And so now I have these sort of standing appointments where. I talked to them, my host father, and my host brother on Zoom. I go on vacation with my host brother. I was planning on going to Europe this year, before, you know, COVID, before all panty-D, to visit bring my kid. Like I just realized, "Hey, not everyone has a large family and not everybody has a bonus family in a foreign country that still cares about them."  Right? Most exchange students never get this close. So it's just kind of a waste — it's a waste if we don't make this relationship last. There's nothing sort of selfish or weird about me doing it now, do I wish I'd visited more and developed more of a relationship when my host mother was still alive? Yeah, but I didn't. So now what I can do is learn from that and go, "Oh my gosh, life really is short. All those cliches are true. I don't want the same thing to happen with my host father and my host brother." 

[00:32:38] That's really what your uncle is teaching you right now. So take his lesson to heart. Let it bring you closer to yourself, closer to other people. I know it's hard to accept a loss like this. It's probably the hardest thing we go through in life as so many people have this year. But that's why we have to go through it so we can find out what's truly important. So don't feel bad about not learning these lessons beforehand. That's what we learned from events like this, as sad as it is, it does take this kind of experience to really hammer this stuff home for everyone. You're not the exception here. And I think if you turn this into a learning experience and you make your relationship better with your cousin as a result and help guide him that young man through the loss of his father, I think that a lot of good has come out of this tragic event.

[00:33:24] This is The Jordan Harbinger Show and this is feedback Friday. We'll be right back. 

[00:33:29] This episode is sponsored in part by Manscaped. Jingle balls to the walls — fellas, listen up, untrimmed down there is a thing of the past. It's time to gear up. Get yourself the gift of shaving this holiday season. I'm talking of course about the Manscaped Perfect Package 3.0. They've redesigned their electric trimmer, their Lawn Mower 3.0, it's got proprietary SkinSafe technology. The trimmer cuts the hair, not the other stuff around it. That sounds really sensitive and painful. Also, it's waterproof. You can use it in the shower, which is kind of let's admit — it's like the only place you should be probably doing this anyway, you clog the drain, but at least you're not going to cut your nuts. Right? I know a lot of people don't want me to say balls, so we're just going to go with nuts this year. Don't use the same trimmer on your face as you're using on your junk. That's just nasty. A lot of you've been doing that. I know it because I used to do it a long time ago before Manscaped, of course. Anyway, get 20 percent off and free shipping with the code JORDAN20 at manscaped.com, 20 percent off and free shipping with the code JORDAN20 at manscaped.com. Make Santa proud this year. 

[00:34:31] This episode is also sponsored by OxiClean. The holidays are coming up. It's inevitable. You're going to get a grease stain on your clothes. You're going to want to wash those blankets when they get pulled out for the season, you're going to want to keep those dish towels looking nice. Don't throw out shirts because you got to stay on it that you couldn't get out. Don't throw things out that your kids got messes on. OxiClean Max Force has you covered. It will tackle the toughest dried-in stains. You spray it on, you can leave it on for up to five days. Throw it right in the wash. Five types of powerful stain fighters to help you get more of those toughest stains out the first time and remove life's messes from your clothes. 

[00:35:05] Jen Harbinger: You've got to try OxiClean Max Force for yourself. To work your magic with OxiClean, go to oxiclean.com/maxforceone to get a coupon for a dollar off. 

[00:35:14] Jordan Harbinger: Thanks for listening and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers keeps us going. Who doesn't love some good products and/or services? You can always visit jordanharbinger.com/deals for all the details on everybody that helps support the show. And now for the conclusion of Feedback Friday. 

[00:35:32] All right, Gabe. What's next? 

[00:35:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe, I've been with my girlfriend for five years, three of which we lived together about two years ago. I got my dream job on the other side of the country, and we both knew that I had to follow it with the expectation that she would be moving out shortly after. I quickly learned that this was a great area of the country and knew I wanted to stay here indefinitely. After a year and a half of long distance and months of no trips due to COVID, we have ended up in very different directions. She really wants to move out here, but feels like she needs to find herself and know what she wants to do before leaving her current job, her friends, and her family behind. She also knows that it would cause a further rift in our relationship. If I moved back for her, thus giving up on my dream job. I want to say, wouldn't it be easier to find yourself and figure out your goals in a new location but I know that that's an unfair pressure to put on her. The whole finding myself thing that has been a theme in our relationship. One that she has used ironically enough to avoid some hard life decisions. I've tried to help her through that, but obviously, it's not something I can control. Ultimately, we ended up splitting up after spending a wonderful week together, talking about how there is not a path forward for us, even though we are still in love and so compatible otherwise. This feels like a wrong decision or like maybe there's an option I'm missing. Do you think I made the right move? Is this the direction I should be heading? Signed, Heading Off, But Still Looking Over My Shoulder. 

[00:36:55] Jordan Harbinger: Well, I'm sorry to hear you're going through this, man. By the way, Gabe, I feel like I start every answer with that, but it's appropriate, right? A lot of people are writing in with some heavy-duty stuff here. Breakups are always hard, but they're even harder when there's still a lot of love in the relationship. You know, breakups over things like logistics and values and not because one person has emptied your bank account or something like that. Right? 

[00:37:18] Since you're still very much in the middle of this, I'm sure that it feels pretty overwhelming, pretty confusing. You're probably sitting there in Boston or wherever drinking some Maker's Mark and listening to Drake. Wondering why the lyrics to Best I Ever Had described your relationship to a T. Trust me, bud. We've all been there. When you end a relationship, it's easy to doubt yourself and second guess. It's actually — I've never ended a relationship and not done that I think so — and I'm pretty sure everyone does that. It's easy to wonder if you miss something or you prioritize the wrong things.

[00:37:51] But I got to say, in my opinion, I think you made the right call here. You and your lady, you're just in different places right now. And I don't just mean geographically. You found your dream job. You followed it to a city that you love. You've got momentum. Your life is unfolding. It's really exciting from the sound of it. Your ex she's still figuring it out or putting off figuring it out. And it sounds like she has her own stuff going on. Maybe there's some fear around facing these big questions, some conflict around taking a chance, a need for stability and certainty. All of which sounds like it's kinda been a thing in the relationship for a while. And it's impossible for us to know the full story there.

[00:38:30] But the bottom line is you guys want different things. And I'm not talking about, you know, I want chicken Pad Thai tonight, and she wants seitan scramble. 

[00:38:38] Gabe, do people outside California, even know what seitan is? Actually, what is seitan? What is it? I don't even know what it is. 

[00:38:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh God. 

[00:38:45] Jordan Harbinger: What is it?

[00:38:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: I want to say that it's wheat gluten. It's basically a meat substitute, very popular among vegans.

[00:38:52] Jordan Harbinger: Okay.

[00:38:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: I think you're basically required by law in Santa Monica to eat at once a day. I don't know if you know about that. Oh, man. I'm glad we talked about this though. It's very, very relevant to the topic at hand.

[00:39:02] Jordan Harbinger: Indeed. Yeah. Okay. So look, we're not talking about that. We're talking major life stuff here. Things that would eventually become problems in the relationship if they hadn't come to a head now. So it's good that they did. 

[00:39:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. I totally agree with you.

[00:39:15] Jordan Harbinger: In fact, it could have happened later and just been much more of an issue. Like she moves all the way out there and you're like, "You know what? This isn't working," and she's like, "Are you kidding me? I just moved. And sold my house and sold my car." You know, all these — there could have been a lot more considerations.

[00:39:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:39:30] Jordan Harbinger: Gabe, what do you think? 

[00:39:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: I totally agree. Because as painful as it is, I think it's extremely mature of them to recognize that it's time to part ways, at least for now. Maybe down the road, there's a chance, but for now, it sounds like yes, they are two roads diverged in a yellow wood. And one of them's in Boston, listening to Drizzy, living his best life. She has work to do. You have work to do. You both have new experiences to explore, and right now it's just not possible to do those things together. And I just want to say also when you mentioned that you've tried to help her work on herself, but that it's not something you can control. That really stood out to me that tells me that you guys have a healthy boundary in your relationship that you haven't taken on too much of her stuff. That you're honoring her need to figure out her life for herself. I really admire that. A lot of couples do not know how to do that. You sound like a good dude and a good partner, and I'm sure that you're going to find a lot of great new relationships of all kinds in this new chapter. Although given the state of the world right now, you'll probably spend most of the panty-D going on hinge dates with girls posting pictures of their COVID passports. But that's actually nice, like probably putting you at ease a little bit. But that's, that is a diversion. 

[00:40:30] My point is it sounds like you're a good partner and you're probably going to meet a lot of great people. And then down the road, you guys will stay in touch. And it sounds like there's a good base of friendship there. And if it works out later, it works out later. But yeah, for now, I think this was the right move for sure. 

[00:40:42] Jordan Harbinger: Now I agree with that. I think he should just keep doing what you're doing, bud. At this stage of your life, it's important for you to be prioritizing your needs and interests. Just like it's important for your ex-girlfriend to prioritize hers. It's normal to doubt yourself after a big breakup. You've got a breakup brain right now. You love her. You miss her. You're listening to Drizzy 24/7. There's a reason that guy crushes on Spotify. But I would give yourself time to separate, you know, settle into your new life. And in a month or two, you're going to start to see this all much more clearly. And I think you're going to get excited by the prospect that you can go out and reinvent yourself kind of outside the constraints of a relationship, especially after you move, right? You can be a different person. You don't have any sort of baggage from your old life.

[00:41:26] And I think what you'll see is two people separating for good reasons. And they can become the people they're each supposed to be, not to be too woo about it, but I really think you're going to get stoked about moving forward. You just have to kind of get over the guilt and the "did I make the right decision" anxiety, and then you'll be able to move forward with a purpose.

[00:41:45] All right. Last but not least — the final question of the year. 

[00:41:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan, I can't help, but notice that you spend a lot of time helping other people, whether it's spending your 40th birthday doing a prison volunteer charity thing, or spending time replying to people's life and career questions on Feedback Friday, what would you say has made you have such a giving mindset. Signed, Grasping at Gratitude?

[00:42:07] Jordan Harbinger: Great question. And a nice one to end the year on, you know, for a long time. I never really think about being giving, but a lot of people have asked me this kind of thing. I used to think that I was giving because I got a lot of stuff. I don't really need all of it. You know, I've got sponsors sending me stuff and I make a good living. And I realize a lot of people have helped me. And I'm just going to give away sometimes because why not? I'm a nice person. But with time, I've come to realize that the reason I have a lot of stuff — that it turns out I don't need and not just including time, but just everything in general. The reason for that is that I actually give a lot of it away. And I know that sounds like an annoying Zen koan or like a paradox that somebody would post on Instagram over a photo of a sunset or something. But hear me out here. Because I've learned over the years, the real value in life is relationships and experiences. It's not in collecting things or holding onto money, especially when we restarted with The Jordan Harbinger Show to bring things full circle, my relationships are what saved my butt. 

[00:43:06] And when I look back at old memories, it's never like, "Yeah. And then I bought that car." It's always the experiences. It's never been in things it's never been in money and I've been fortunate enough to make a really good living, both on Wall Street and then doing this creative pursuit that we call The Jordan Harbinger Show, but I've never gone like, "Wow, look at that bank balance." I just don't care. It doesn't get me excited. It doesn't get me up in the morning. Those assets, they're just only meaningful when they're being invested in and with other people. And that's why I ended up investing a lot of my — the revenue that we get for the show back into the show to grow and grow and grow. Because when you invest in other people, when you invest in things that are meaningful, they have a funny way — those investments have a funny way of coming back to you, tenfold, which just creates new opportunities to give them away. So it really is a virtuous cycle in that respect but on an even more basic level. 

[00:43:59] I guess I have a giving mindset because it makes me feel good. No surprise there. I just don't like the feeling of hoarding resources or withholding value or making people jump through hoops to get stuff. I'm not reckless. I still make sure I'm taking care of myself. I'm taking care of the family and all that, but I just don't find a lot of satisfaction in hanging on to things. Whereas when I give things away freely, whether it's an introduction or a gift or a vacation or a few hours of my time, I feel the opposite. I feel connected. I feel useful. I feel fulfilled and I'm not saying I do that all just so I can feel good. It's not entirely a selfish thing. It's more like the good feeling that I get when I give stuff away. That's some sort of indication for me that I'm on the right path, that I have the right relationship to things, especially material things, but also including my own time and expertise.

[00:44:51] And on top of that, I also see a lot of older accomplished people, donating a lot of time and experience. It's almost a cliche, right, Gabriel? Like a retired executive, now mentoring young people, or like starts charity. I know that they're onto something. So I figured I just wouldn't wait until I'm 65 years old and retired and less able to relate to somebody who's in their 20s and 30s and who needs mentorship and guidance and help and whatever. I just figured I'll dive in now. Because right now I'm in a sweet spot of usefulness and relate-ability. I mean, I'm doing well on my career, but I also know how to talk to somebody who's 20, 25. But when I'm 65, I'm going to look like an alien to somebody who's 25. They're like, "Yeah. In virtual reality, we all do our work now. It's the latest remote work stuff. How do I use body language in virtual reality?" And I'm going to be like, "Yeah, is that the thing you put on your head? And it looks like you're looking inside the video game," and they're going to be like, "Yeah. You know what, nevermind, Jordan. Thanks for offering your help. I'm going to go ahead and Google it," or whatever they have then. 

[00:45:53] So if you're asking how I got this way because you want to be that way too. Well, there are basically two ways to get there. First, anytime you feel moved to be generous, be generous. Help your roommate edit their resume. By your cousin, the book that you think they would like even if it's not their birthday. Take someone out to dinner. Ask them how they're doing. These things don't have to be huge. In fact, smaller acts are often the most meaningful, the most impactful, and they're available to all of us at any time. And by the way, the ones that don't cost money. Those are usually the best ones because I know people are like, "I don't have money to take myself out to dinner. How can I take someone else out to dinner?" But if you struggle with feeling generous, which most people do, don't beat yourself up about that. By the way, a lot of people feel that way. If you struggle with that giving mindset, I recommend acting as if you have that mindset already. I know that's easier said than done, but just edit that resume, buy that book, organize that dinner. 

[00:46:46] I can almost guarantee that you'll feel like a more generous person just by acting generous, even if it feels awkward and unnatural. And that's a good principle to follow in general. Anytime you find yourself wishing you could act a certain way, just act that way, and slowly over time, that action will create the result that you want. That works with giving. It works with exercising. It works with networking. It works with being on top of your life, whatever it is to just commit to doing it even if you don't feel like you're the type of person who can. And before you know it, you're going to be that person. It's not magic. It's not overnight. It's that your actions make the person, right? You're, you're sort of the sum — what's, there's a quote by somebody. I'm sure that you're the sum total of your habits, right? It's probably some Greek philosopher, Gabriel. I used to feel so awkward and sometimes irresponsible, donating time that I should be working on donating money that I should be reinvesting or saving or spending on myself, whatever, buying things from my friends out of nowhere.

[00:47:43] And I even, I remember one of my old business partners, I bought somebody noise-canceling headphones because he said he was at work and they had an open workspace and he could never get anything done. And he's like, "Yeah, I just don't know." I'm like, "You got to get noise-canceling headphones." And he's like, "Ah, I don't know, they're expensive. And I just got the job and I got to read reviews and one of those," and I just bought him these really nice noise-canceling headphones. And we weren't even that tight and he was blown away. And I remember one of my former business partners going like, "You shouldn't have been that generous with him. Like it doesn't make any sense." And he really kind of shamed me for doing that, which I thought was kind of a crappy thing to do, but it really, it got in my head and I didn't do anything like that for a while. So I had to get over that. 

[00:48:22] But then once I got over that in the initial weirdness and the reality that a lot of people just don't understand that I just really started to enjoy that. And I realized, Hey look, maybe if other people don't like it, that's fine. But this is me which is why we're talking right now and why I do Feedback Friday every week. And the foundation for doing this show is not just, "Oh right. I got to sell ads somehow." I like doing this because it's a way to give back to people and be generous and also make a living doing it. And that's just as good a place as any, in my opinion, to put this show down for the year.

[00:48:55] My invitation for you, my wish for you is: Give more this coming year, whatever that means to you. This whole show was really born out of that mindset. Like I mentioned, and I try to embrace it in everything that I do. You guys have done the same thing for me. You've given me your time. You give me your attention. You give me your stories, your thanks, your kind emails, you've shared this show with other people. You support our sponsors to keep the lights on around here. You've reached out to us personally, and I could not be more grateful for that especially after the year we've all been through. 

[00:49:26] So thank you so much for that. Happy Holidays! And we'll be back in your feed here the first weeks of January. I'm already excited to hang out with all of you in 2021. And I really mean that. This letter, I could have written this letter at any time. I feel like it's long overdue. And not a day goes by where I don't get an email from one of you. And I'm like, I just want to hug this person right now. And you know me, I'm not that sappy if a guy but I just — I love hearing from you. I love doing the show. It is a great honor and a privilege. And I want to make sure that you all understand that.

[00:49:56] All right, that's it for 2020. Check out the guests from this week, Frank Maderal on gold smuggling and Jason Silva on — you know, if you can follow it then good on you. I'm not going to pigeon hole them into one little category here. Frank Maderal, Jason Silva. Please tell me what you think of these.

[00:50:10] If you're wondering how I got this great network of folks that help and contribute to the show and contribute to Feedback Friday, to make sure you get quality advice, it's about the network. I'm teaching you how to network, you know where that course is on the Thinkific platform, jordanharbinger.com/course. And you know what I'm going to say. Dig that well before you're thirsty. If you want relationships, you got to build them before you need them. If you try to build them when you need them, you're too late. The drills take a few minutes a day. Look, the holidays are a great time to start doing something like Six-Minute Networking. It takes six minutes a day. That's how we came up with the name. Look, jordanharbinger.com/course is where you can find it. 

[00:50:45] A link to the show notes for this episode is always at jordanharbinger.com. Transcripts in the show notes. There's a video of this Feedback Friday episode, going up on the YouTube channel at jordanharbinger.com/youtube. I'm at @JordanHarbinger on both Twitter and Instagram or just hit me on LinkedIn. You can find Gabe on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi or on Instagram at @GabrielMizrahi.

[00:51:06] This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My amazing team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, Josh Ballard. And of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. I'm your host Jordan Harbinger. It's been a hell of a year and I'll see you in the next one. Keep sending in those questions to friday@jordanharbinger.com. Our advice and opinions, and those of our guests are their own. And I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on this show. And remember, especially over the Holidays, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found this episode useful, please share it with somebody else who can use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show, so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next year. 

[00:51:50] After the show, we've got a preview trailer of our interview with Dr. James Fallon on how psychopath's brains function differently from the rest of us and why psychopaths thrive in modern society. Check out episode 28 here on The Jordan Harbinger Show.

[00:52:05] Dr. James Fallon: I'm a neuroscientist. Since about 1989, I've studied the brain imaging scans of killers, serial killers, really bad murders. And in case, you did wonder, I did one or two a year for many years. And then in 2005, 2006, I got sent a ton of them and I analyzed them. I said, "Oh my God, there's a pattern. So I saw this pattern." that nobody had ever described. But at the same time, we were doing a clinical study on the genetics of Alzheimer's disease and we had all the Alzheimer's patients we needed. So we needed normals, just normal controls. And so I asked my family — that was kind of my first mistake. I said, "Look, guys, you want it all to get in?" I got my brothers, my wife. I said, "We'll test you," and the idea being that on my side of my family, there was no Alzheimer's at all. So we did it. 

[00:52:51] And the two technicians walked into my office and on my right side, I have piled all these murders' brain scans, and they handed me a pile of my family scans and they were covered up. So I couldn't see the names. And so I went through well with one, two, three, four, five, six, seven. I was really relieved that they looked at the first pass normal. And then I got to the last scan and I looked at it. I said, "Okay guys." I said, "This is very funny. You kid around with each other, right.?" And I said, "Okay, switch to get to one of the worst psychopaths from this pile of murders and you switched it into my family. Ha-ha-ha." And they go, "No, it's part of your family." I said, "You got to be kidding." I said, "This guy shouldn't be walking around in open society. He's probably a very dangerous person." So I had to tear back the covering on the name of it. And there was my name. 

[00:53:42] Jordan Harbinger: For more with Dr. James Fallon, including how to spot a psychopath in the wild, check out episode 28 here on The Jordan Harbinger Show.

[00:53:52] Now more ways to be a team with Microsoft Teams. Bring everyone together in one space with a new virtual room, collaborate live, drawing, sharing, and building ideas with everyone on the same page. And make sure more of your team is seen and heard with up to 49 people on screen at once. Learn more about all the newest Teams features at microsoft.com/teams.