747: Would a Girlboss Wife Ruin Your Boyboss Life? | Feedback Friday

747: Would a Girlboss Wife Ruin Your Boyboss Life? | Feedback Friday

[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the noise-canceling headphones, tuning out the interference in your life conundra, Gabriel Mizrahi. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. So we want to help you see the Matrix when it comes to how these amazing people think and behave that we profile here on the show. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. So you can get a much deeper understanding of how the world works and make sense of what's really happening even inside your own mind.

[00:00:41] If you're new to the show on Fridays, we give advice to you. We answer listener questions the rest of the week. We have long-form interviews and conversations with a variety of really incredible folks, from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, and performers. This week, we had Dave Farina. We debunked a lot of junk science, pseudoscience, myths that corporations and charlatans, both online and off used to sell us things or make us do or believe in things that are just fake and not science at all. Really interesting episode where, yeah, it'll make you smarter. We also had Yass Alizadeh. Now, she is Iranian and immigrated here to the United States. This is the first installment in what might be a new segment of the show, similar to Skeptical Sunday, called Out of the Loop. We go over the Iranian protest, the reason these are happening, why they're different than before. We do a little Iran protest 101.

[00:01:28] Let me know what you think of episodes like this. I don't want to get into politics or news per se, but sometimes current events are happening and frankly, unless, you're watching the news, paying attention, talking to experts, you kind of goes in one ear and out the other. I'm trying to do episodes on these things where appropriate, where something really, really big happens and people just go, "I don't know what's going on. I hear about it in the news." I want to do explainers with experts on those subjects. So let me know what you think of those episodes from this week.

[00:01:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: So, Jordan, before we get into the conundra today, I need to talk to you about something.

[00:01:57] Jordan Harbinger: All right? What's up?

[00:01:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay, so I was at a cafe the other day and I'm at a table working, and this guy sits down at the table next to me. He's probably like, I don't know, 45, 50. He's wearing jean shorts. Just to paint a picture for you.

[00:02:10] Jordan Harbinger: Jorts.

[00:02:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, jorts. He's alone. And he props up his phone on his table and he starts playing CNN on his phone at full volume in this cafe for like 30 minutes.

[00:02:22] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, don't even get me started on this.

[00:02:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: Does this bother you?

[00:02:26] Jordan Harbinger: Oh my god. Okay, the lack of self-awareness — continue.

[00:02:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: If that weren't bad enough. Halfway through his meal, he gets up to, I guess, go refill his meter down the street or something, and he leaves it playing at his table. I was going out of my mind, like I feel like I'm a pretty chill person, but this particular thing drives me insane. This is like one of two or three things that just sends my blood pressure through the roof. And I just wanted to ask you like, "Am I crazy? Or I'm assuming this bothers you too.

[00:02:56] Jordan Harbinger: I hate this. I was at, my mom's 81st birthday was recently, I take her to Morton's Steakhouse. I don't know if it's in every state, but it's like a fancy enough steakhouse, you know, it's a—

[00:03:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: Sure

[00:03:06] Jordan Harbinger: —four or five-star, whatever you call it, restaurant. It's a four-dollar signs on Yelp, I believe. A guy did that. So he's on a date with a girl and I'm like, "Oh, there's a couple on a date over there." And she goes to the bathroom, he busts out his phone and he turns on a video at full volume. And I'm thinking—

[00:03:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: What?

[00:03:23] Jordan Harbinger: Man, this is the, whatever, the opposite of, act like you've been to a place like this before. This is it. And—

[00:03:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's next level though, like at a steakhouse on a date.

[00:03:32] Jordan Harbinger: I agree. First of all, what a classless idiot, he was super underdressed, but I try not to judge people for that because who cares? Like really, dress codes are stupid in my mind, but—

[00:03:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: Sure.

[00:03:41] Jordan Harbinger: Okay, show up in a t-shirt and jeans to a steakhouse. I don't really care about that. But then when you're blasting a YouTube video, I'm like, "Dude, you are alone for literally three minutes. You got to watch a YouTube video during that time, you, manchild."

[00:03:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't get it. Do people not realize how annoying they are? Or do they know how annoying they are and they just don't care?

[00:04:00] Jordan Harbinger: So I'd love to say it's the latter. Everyone's selfish. But I also think that self-awareness among many people is nowadays at an all-time low.

[00:04:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:04:10] Jordan Harbinger: I don't know if it's because we spend so much time on our devices, or what? I'll be on an airplane and somebody will just blast a movie. And one time, I try to be like, oh, she's older and she doesn't know her headphones aren't in. And other times I'm thinking, no, she just doesn't give a crap that literally everyone on the plane can hear her play this video. What are you doing?

[00:04:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: It drives me crazy. I think you're onto something though, with the self-awareness thing, because I was at the movies this week and it was a packed theater and halfway through the movie, the guy to my left falls asleep and like snoring. Like I've never heard somebody snore before. Now I know this happens. People fall asleep. Maybe, they don't know they're snoring, but like this is not the first time somebody has fallen asleep multiple times and snored in a movie theater recently.

[00:04:56] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:04:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: And then the guy next to me multiple times in the movie takes out his phone at full brightness and is like texting and checking his photos and like on social media during the movie.

[00:05:07] Jordan Harbinger: Wow.

[00:05:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: And it's ruining because it's in my periphery. And finally, I had to turn to him and be like, "Dude, can you not do that?" He was literally staring at the movie while he left his phone open and all. Like, I was just like, "Dude, you can't do that. Can you just enjoy this moment? This is what you came for. Watch the f*cking movie.

[00:05:23] Jordan Harbinger: You paid to be here. What's really crazy to me is that when people say social media addiction, I'm like, "Oh, I don't know. Is it an addiction?" And then I look at people like that and I go, "You paid to be here—"

[00:05:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:05:32] Jordan Harbinger: "—in a movie theater and enjoy this, and you can't get off Instagram. You can't stop on TikTok. You're watching other people in their bathroom—"

[00:05:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: No, it's a problem.

[00:05:40] Jordan Harbinger: "—doing TikTok dances during a movie that you paid to be in." The sleeping guy, I feel like, hey, whatever. You can't really help that.

[00:05:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, it happens. Yeah. Although, yeah, I have other thoughts about that, but it's a little more forgivable. There is an epidemic of selfishness and lack of self-awareness, and it is becoming worse.

[00:05:57] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:05:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: I think you're absolutely right, and it drives me absolutely insane. I just needed to talk to you about that.

[00:06:01] Jordan Harbinger: It's people watching stuff like this.

[00:06:03] Insane Clown Posse: Magnets? How do they work? [Soundbite]

[00:06:07] Jordan Harbinger: And if you know what that music video is, you know exactly the type of people we're talking about.

[00:06:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: Is that Insane Clown Posse?

[00:06:13] Jordan Harbinger: That's Insane Clown Posse.

[00:06:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, what a classic.

[00:06:15] Jordan Harbinger: With their dumb, dumb, dumb lyrics, and I'm sure they're nice guys. They're actually from my hometown of Troy, Michigan, and they've been around forever but—

[00:06:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: How do magnets work?

[00:06:25] Jordan Harbinger: Magnets? How do they work? I don't know. There's a way you can find that out. It's not—

[00:06:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:06:29] Jordan Harbinger: —really, anyway, don't get me started on that.

[00:06:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: Dude, if this guy were googling how do magnets work in the movie, I would've been less upset.

[00:06:37] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Like, oh, man, insatiable curiosity. Nope, just wants to see people doing TikTok, dances in a gym—

[00:06:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, lip-syncing to Dua Lipa. Like, what are you doing?

[00:06:48] Jordan Harbinger: God — all right, we should probably get started. I hate when podcasters banter about crap before an episode — and you're welcome, everybody. We just did that, but we rarely do this now I'm all, uh, all right.

[00:06:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm a little worked up.

[00:07:00] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:07:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Just think of it as my own personal Feedback Friday email that I had to bring to you.

[00:07:04] Jordan Harbinger: There you go. But you know what? We're going to get a lot of emails that are like, "I hate every single one of these people who do this and we should round up.

[00:07:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: Please, it would make me feel so much better if you guys sent me those stories because I feel alone in this.

[00:07:13] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Especially when people have really bad ones. Like someone doing it at a funeral. That's for sure a thing someone's done before, like, "Oh god, this eulogy—"

[00:07:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: I've never heard of that.

[00:07:20] Jordan Harbinger: —is terrible. Is there a game on."

[00:07:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: You imagine doomscrolling at Nana's funeral? Like, what are you doing?

[00:07:25] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Hey man, not enough gloom here for you. You want to go on Twitter now.

[00:07:29] All right. What's the first thing out of the mailbag?

[00:07:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I bought a ring a couple of months ago to propose to my girlfriend of two years, but I just can't seem to get there. We've had a lot of problems and while there are patches when we're happy, another argument is always around the corner. A lot of our problems stem from the fact that we have similar personalities. We both lead others, plan things out, are ambitious in our careers, and tend to see our own way as the right way. When we lead our church group, for example, she often speaks over me and there's a chance that she might make more money than me one day, which I know she'll use to be in charge.

[00:08:06] Hmm.

[00:08:06] Jordan Harbinger: Okay.

[00:08:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: Interesting.

[00:08:07] She's a girlboss and a really good one, gorgeous, smart, passionate, loved by everybody. But I often think, wouldn't life be easier if she just let me lead as a man, like all our friends do?

[00:08:20] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, man, oh my goodness. Okay.

[00:08:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: So for the past year, I've contemplated leaving, but that's really hard to think about because she's integrated into every part of my life. It would come as a shock to everyone, and I might end up with no friends afterward. I dread the idea of breaking up, but I also don't think I'll be happy having a girl-boss wife, but then I could never ask her to be less successful for me. A lot of people would say, I'm just insecure and holding her back, which might be true. Is it wrong for me to want a supportive wife rather than one who leads over me? Do I just let her lead or do I leave? Signed, Cross and at a Loss About My Girlboss.

[00:09:02] Jordan Harbinger: I know I'm oversimplifying this, but I heard, "I'm dating this amazing, talented woman. Wouldn't life be easier though if I just hammered those talents down into submission?" I mean, I'm laughing because—

[00:09:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: It is a little bit of that.

[00:09:13] Jordan Harbinger: I know he doesn't mean it that way, but I'm like—

[00:09:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: No.

[00:09:15] Jordan Harbinger: Hey man—

[00:09:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: But is that a little bit What's going on?

[00:09:18] Jordan Harbinger: A little bit.

[00:09:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: Let's get into it. There's a lot happening here. Yeah.

[00:09:20] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. This is a really interesting relationship. It sounds like you and your girlfriend are both kind of, and I hate this term, alpha dogs because it's a BS term, but you're constantly jostling for pole position. You want to lead, and she's a girlboss, which by the way, that term is so cringy, also.

[00:09:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Not great.

[00:09:37] Jordan Harbinger: Not great, ugh. I can't figure out, is it condescending? It's like his wife can't just be a boss. She has to be a girlboss, and I'm sure he didn't mean anything by it. I know it's a term people use. I think I'm also having a weird reaction to it because tons of multi-level marketing shills use it to refer to themselves, and that gets under my skin. It's like girlboss working from the pool. Yeah, you're—

[00:09:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:09:59] Jordan Harbinger: —$30,000 in debt to Herbalife. Maybe you shouldn't be bragging about this.

[00:10:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: You're the 28th in line at doTERRA. Calm down.

[00:10:06] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:10:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: But also that term has also become a bit pejorative now, right? Like it's kind of an insult after a few of the famous girlbosses hit a rough patch, right? I think I read about that.

[00:10:15] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I've read about that. In fact, a lot of the people who write books about this, it turns out it's all just smoke and mirrors. Also, it just sort of feels like a one-dimensional archetype or something. Anyway, we don't need to get into a whole discussion about power and feminism and girlboss, it's just that that phrase jumped out at me.

[00:10:29] So look, a lot of people listening to this story are probably having the reaction you anticipated, which is, "Relax, man, you're being insecure. You're holding her back. Stop telling your wife to play second fiddle to you. It doesn't make any sense." And that's one read of the situation and it might be a fair one, but we're not here to shame you for feeling this way.

[00:10:48] I'm more interested in figuring out what's happening beneath the surface here. So my question for you is, what does your wife's power or authority bring up for you? What is it about her leading that just doesn't sit well with you? I'm not telling you that you should not feel this way or that the relationship dynamic you want is wrong. That's for you guys to decide. I just think the first step to figuring this out is exploring what goes on in you when your wife takes charge of situations.

[00:11:18] Honestly, I wish we had hours for this. That would be so interesting. But since we can't, I'll just say this. I do suspect that your wife's power triggers something in you. Her authority seems to bring up some very powerful feelings in you, self-doubt, insecurity. I'm guessing there's a little bit of resentment here and maybe there's some anxiety too. Like, if you're not in charge, something bad is going to happen.

[00:11:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right, right. It's almost like the relationship, it's like a kind of zero-sum game in this department. Like her leading takes something away from him. He has to give something up if she gets to shine. That's the sense that I get. Like at church, right? Like she speaks over him. They're competing for authority, for attention. And if she makes more money than he does down the line, what did he say? He thinks she might use that to be in charge.

[00:12:04] Jordan Harbinger: Right. They can't both be bosses. They can't both have equal status. It's one person over the other, at least not at the same time.

[00:12:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:12:10] Jordan Harbinger: He has to be boyboss and she has to be boyboss's wife who knows her place or he feels kind of diminished somehow.

[00:12:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: Diminish, that's a great word. That's exactly it. By the way, when you say boyboss, you can really hear how cringe the term girlboss is.

[00:12:24] Jordan Harbinger: Oh yeah. It's pretty bad. And that's the point. We should either call all ambitious men, boybosses, and see how they like it, or we should just retire this freaking term. It's only been a few years since it got popular and it already sounds like a 1950s insult.

[00:12:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. The girlbosses are at it again. They're in the workplace.

[00:12:41] Jordan Harbinger: They're bringing home the bacon. They're speaking over you at church. Know your place, Rosie.

[00:12:46] But anyway, that's what you need to figure out. Why your girlfriend's power seems to come at your expense? Why she can't be in control without it feeling like she's dominating? And I'm sure there's a lot of play here — your values, your childhood, your culture, how you veer yourself, what unique pressure points you have that are getting activated by your girlfriend's personality.

[00:13:09] For example, if you need to be in control to feel okay watching your partner take control, it might feel very destabilizing. Or if you have a certain image of yourself as the man in charge, the breadwinner, the one who gets to be on top of the heap, then seeing your partner step up, that might feel like a threat to that identity. Maybe you feel like you're supposed to have that identity, or maybe you do have some complicated feelings about women being in charge. Again, that could be family stuff, that could be cultural stuff, church stuff, whatever. And your girlfriend is challenging those biases. Although, to be fair, it's not like you're telling her to quit her job or make less money. Like you said, you could never ask her to be less successful for you, and I'm glad that you know that. I agree with you. That is obviously not the answer, and I think that happens in a lot of relationships, whether people ask or not. It's sort of, there's just pressure there.

[00:13:59] The other possibility is that you and your girlfriend are just both pretty rigid, maybe a little bit stubborn, and the real problem here isn't who gets to lead, it's how you guys relate to each other when you have a problem. How do you guys talk? How do you listen? Are you open to changing or are you both so identified with your positions that there's just never any resolution? There's so much that could be going on here, but these are just a few ideas that come to mind.

[00:14:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: I agree. I think any of those could be the culprit. I think there's also another really powerful piece here though, and that's how this guy feels that he's perceived because this actually came up a few times in his letter. First, when he described his girlfriend, he said she was gorgeous, smart, passionate, and what I found really interesting, loved by everyone.

[00:14:43] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: Then when he said that, he often thinks, wouldn't life be easier if she just let me lead because I'm the man like all of our friends do?

[00:14:50] Jordan Harbinger: Mmm.

[00:14:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: And then he said that it's hard to contemplate leaving because their breakup would come as a shock to everyone and I might end up with no friends afterward.

[00:14:59] Jordan Harbinger: I think I see where you're going here. He seems pretty concerned with what their friends think. It sounds like there's a strong cultural pressure here.

[00:15:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, he does sound concerned with that, and that's not entirely problematic. Obviously, we all care what people think of us.

[00:15:13] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:15:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: We all care what our friends think and we should to some degree, and maybe that's what's keeping him in check here a little bit, but the fact that other people's perceptions play such a big role in his feelings about his wife potentially, that I do find interesting because I wonder if maybe when he says, "I just wish my girlfriend would let me lead." What he's really saying is, "I don't like the way I'm perceived when I don't lead. I don't like what people think about me when they see that I'm not in charge."

[00:15:36] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I could see that. I think you're at church and someone's talking over you, and people are giving you side eye like, "Oh, you put up with that. What a wimpsky?

[00:15:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's also possible though that there's a little bit of projection going on here as well. He might legitimately feel uneasy about his wife for the reasons you laid out, but then he's locating those feelings in other people like their friends or like the other people in their church group, believing that they're going to feel about him the way he already feels about himself, which is maybe like, "I'm not the top dog," or you know, maybe it's emasculating or whatever it is. And those threats to his identity or his self-image seem real because they're confirmed or they seem to be confirmed by the people they interact with. And that just reinforces all the feelings.

[00:16:19] Jordan Harbinger: Ah, okay, totally. I can see that. But you know, to be fair, something similar might be happening for his girlfriend too.

[00:16:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm. Interesting.

[00:16:26] Jordan Harbinger: When they're leading that church group, she might wonder how all these people perceive her if she stays quiet and lets him lead. And maybe that's part of the reason she jockeys for power. We don't know what she's thinking, obviously.

[00:16:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: Sure.

[00:16:38] Jordan Harbinger: But they're both ambitious.

[00:16:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:16:40] Jordan Harbinger: They both like being in charge.

[00:16:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:16:41] Jordan Harbinger: Maybe they also factor in other people's perceptions quite a bit too. You know, maybe she's like, "Oh, if I let him lead, then everyone's going to go, 'Oh look, he tamed her. She used to be such a powerful woman."

[00:16:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:16:52] Jordan Harbinger: She's like, "I can't have that."

[00:16:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. That is such a great point and I'm really glad you brought that up because we don't know what's going on for her, but she's obviously having a whole experience of this relationship.

[00:17:01] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: And this dynamic that's just as complex and legitimate as it is for him. Who knows? Maybe she has other qualities that rub him the wrong way and that's informing how he feels about her too.

[00:17:11] Jordan Harbinger: You know, that's a good point. She might be, I don't know, insensitive or domineering or a little insecure. I have no idea. I'm just giving a few examples and what he resents isn't her power, but how she acts when she uses that power, maybe even when she uses it in front of other people.

[00:17:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:17:28] Jordan Harbinger: And as you know, if that's part of what's going on here, to be fair to this guy, I could see that being challenging. I mean, we all know that powerful people, men and women, they all have the potential to be a little bit grading, annoying, right?

[00:17:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: Sure.

[00:17:41] Jordan Harbinger: Some people, they use their authority to lead and inspire to get things done, and some people use their authority to dominate or prove something or inflate themselves. We just have zero idea how your girlfriend acts. She might be a dream leader for all we know, but we have to acknowledge that there might be more to this story.

[00:17:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:17:58] Jordan Harbinger: So again, I would ask you, are you uneasy because your girlfriend is a powerful woman or are you uneasy because there are aspects of her personality or style that rub you the wrong way, that have nothing to do with her leading.

[00:18:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:18:11] Jordan Harbinger: To put this another way, would this whole thing be as much of a problem for you if this was a dude doing it, or is it a problem for you because it's a woman doing it? In which case, I would say you should probably look at that.

[00:18:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, that is a great question. That's what he needs to figure out.

[00:18:25] Jordan Harbinger: Man, we could dissect this for hours, super interesting, but we got to move on. For what it's worth though, I don't believe the answer is to break up not immediately, anyway, and definitely now for this reason. You are obviously uneasy about your partner being in charge. This is a great opportunity to figure out why.

[00:18:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: It is a great opportunity and I would do that before you get engaged.

[00:18:46] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: Because this problem, this friction you guys are having, it is not going away. It's only going to get more pronounced the closer you guys get.

[00:18:53] Jordan Harbinger: Agreed completely. And hey, the fact that you bought the ring and you haven't been able to pull the trigger, I just, I think that's a sign you guys need to do some work on this first. My advice, start talking with your girlfriend. Tell her that you don't want to hold her back, but you're struggling with this leading thing. You don't know what to make of it. Invite her to tell you about why she likes to lead, what this dynamic is bringing up for her, and most importantly, get to the heart of why you guys keep finding yourself in arguments. What are these fights really about? What's stopping you guys from resolving these issues? I would make that a big prior. Run towards the conflict. Be partners in figuring it out. See a therapist if you need help. This is what a good relationship is all about.

[00:19:34] And hey, thanks for sharing this with us. I admire you for being willing to do that. We took a couple of jabs early on. I'd take the same approach with your girlboss there. Just be a real boyboss about it. And trust that those conversations are going to lead you to a more honest place and good luck.

[00:19:50] All right, bosses of all pronouns, time for our sponsors to take the lead. We'll be right back.

[00:19:58] This episode is sponsored in part by Wrkout. After interviewing over a thousand people over the years up, which sounds crazy now that I think about it. One thing I've noticed successful people have in common is they are just, they're short on excuses. Billionaires have the same 24 hours in a day as everybody else. I've always been, you know, a little bit on the fluffy side. A couple of years ago I decided to change that. My friend, Curtis, he started an online virtual training company. He offered to give me a few free sessions. That was the beginning of absolutely this crazy life-changing process for me. I came up with reasons to cancel the first few training sessions. I just thought it was going to be really, really, really hard. I thought it was going to be, you know, puking up everywhere, sore for a week after. None of that was actually the case. I thought, all right, I'll stick with it for a month, Three months, Curtis will get off my back. Here we are. It's been two years. My physique has completely changed. I'm in great shape now, according to my trainer, Chad, who has the most trainer name ever. I'm always improving. I've got abs now. I've never had, even remotely the abs that I have now. I don't even recognize — it's like someone pasted my head on an athletic body. Wrkout actually wrote a wonderful article about that. If you want to check it out, I'll link to that in the show notes. So if you want to see what a highly vetted world-class virtual personal training session can do for you, it's all online, right? You just need your laptop, nobody's showing up at your house. Go to wrkout.com/jordan to try it out. It's actually W-R-K-O-U-T.com/jordan so it's workout without the first O. And tell them Jordan sent you. I can't recommend this highly enough.

[00:21:27] This episode is also sponsored by Progressive insurance. Most of you listening right now are probably multitasking. And so yeah, while you're listening to me talk, you're probably also driving, cleaning, exercising, maybe doing a little grocery shopping. But if you're not in some kind of moving vehicle, there's something else you can be doing right now, getting an auto quote from Progressive insurance. It's easy, and you could save money by doing it right from your phone. Drivers who save by switching to Progressive save over $700 on average and auto customers qualify for an average of seven discounts — discounts for having multiple vehicles on your policy, being a homeowner, and more. So just like your favorite podcast, Progressive will be with you 24/7, 365 days a year, so you're protected no matter what. Multitask right now. Quote your car insurance at progressive.com to join the over 27 million drivers who trust Progressive.

[00:22:13] Jen Harbinger: Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. National annual average insurance savings by new customers surveyed who saved with Progressive between June 2020 and May 2021. Potential savings will vary. Discounts vary, and are not available in all states and situations.

[00:22:26] Jordan Harbinger: Thank you so much for listening to and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers keeps us going. To learn more and get links to all of the discounts you hear on the show, you can check out our amazing sponsors for yourself, and we always appreciate that. jordanharbinger.com/deals has every code, every deal we've had on the show in recent months. You can also search for the sponsors using the search box on the website as well. Please consider supporting those who support this show.

[00:22:51] Now back to Feedback Friday.

[00:22:55] All right, what's next?

[00:22:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. My husband's ex-wife and the mother of my stepson. Let's call her Caitlin is a terrible person. Her marriage to my—

[00:23:05] I love that opening.

[00:23:06] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:23:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: Her marriage to my husband ended when she got pregnant by another man while my husband was deployed in Iraq. My husband paid her more than his required amount of child support, and we even paid her bills when she and her new husband couldn't make ends meet. She always allowed us to visit my stepson until four years ago when he told her that he wanted to live with us. After two months of no contact with my stepson, we were served with a restraining order along with a petition to increase child support. She made multiple reports to Child Protective Services and several law enforcement agencies. Eventually, all investigations cleared us and Caitlin dropped the restraining order, admitting she didn't feel we committed any abuse. Now, Caitlin constantly posts TikTok videos about surviving narcissistic abuse. She claims that my husband beat her, and she has a pretty large following. We pay Caitlin well over a mortgage payment's worth of child support every month because she claims to be unemployed. But in reality, she owns a thriving photography and birth doula service and appears to make more than we do. She also doles out highly questionable medical advice to her followers. The worst part though, is that she's now shamelessly using her aunt's cancer scare to drum up business. She had a non-cancerous tumor, removed some time back and didn't need chemotherapy. But a couple of months later, Caitlin created a fundraiser to pay for her treatment and raised several thousand dollars. Then, last week, Caitlin stated that her aunt has decided to discontinue treatment and live the best life she can with the time she has left and said they would use the funds to create family memories.

[00:24:41] Jordan Harbinger: Wait, so the aunt is fine, right?

[00:24:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's what it sounds like, yeah.

[00:24:45] Jordan Harbinger: So yes, I'm going to use the time I have left. 40 to 50 years.

[00:24:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, she's not wrong.

[00:24:51] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Yeah, technically correct. Okay, fine.

[00:24:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: So they said they would use the funds to create family members. Then they went to an amusement park.

[00:25:00] Jordan Harbinger: Oh god.

[00:25:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: We were concerned that my stepson's great-aunt had taken a turn for the worst. So we called him and were surprised when he told us that she was doing great. I'm sure no response is the best response in a situation like this.

[00:25:13] Jordan Harbinger: Especially after that trip to Six Flags though. That really was so nice.

[00:25:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: But I can't help but want to expose Caitlin for the terrible person she is. How would the two of you handle this? Do I let karma take its course or do I help it along a little? Signed, Avoid More Pollution by Being Confucian or Find Some Resolution by Becoming the Retribution.

[00:25:37] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man, freaking Caitlin, the shady birth doula/portraitist

[00:25:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: What a job title, by the way. Like, I'm trying to understand, are those two businesses related? Like, actually that would be brilliant—

[00:25:49] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:25:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: —if like, "Oh yeah, I can help you birth your baby and then—"

[00:25:51] Jordan Harbinger: Paint it.

[00:25:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: "—come in six weeks and I'll take a photo of you guys." That's kind of smart.

[00:25:56] Jordan Harbinger: Or just like use the after birth to create the painting, that's for sure a real thing.

[00:26:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh yeah. That's an amazing—

[00:26:02] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:26:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's some alternative art right there.

[00:26:04] Jordan Harbinger: Google it. I'm sure it exists. This woman, just what a piece of work.

[00:26:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:26:08] Jordan Harbinger: So I think you already know what I'm going to say here. If you listen to this show at all, you know how much I hate people like this.

[00:26:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: You do hate them, yeah.

[00:26:17] Jordan Harbinger: Caitlin is in the same class of slimy people as the PPP fraud couple and the pyramid scheme energy ladies with their little airplane game, although you could argue on a much smaller scale, but still, this is so shady. This woman—

[00:26:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:26:30] Jordan Harbinger: —starts a GoFundMe or whatever to help pay for her aunt's fake cancer treatment chemo. Then uses the cash to go to freaking Hurricane Harbor or Cedar Point or whatever. That is not cool.

[00:26:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:26:43] Jordan Harbinger: That is unfair to the people who donated. And of course, it's all her Instagram followers, right? So this is extra gross. Oh, and by the way, it's fraudulent.

[00:26:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:26:51] Jordan Harbinger: But part of the reason I'm worked up here is that this really does sound like it fits a larger pattern. This is a woman who sounds very deceptive. She's clearly self-interested and manipulative. She always has her hand out. She's retaliated against you guys by lying to the authorities when your stepson wanted to live with you, which, okay, what a shocker. He doesn't want to live with a crazy lady who cheated on his dad and spends all her free time posting pseudoscience BS on TikTok. And she lies about how much she makes to get more child support out of you guys, and then turns around and posts videos about how your husband abused her. The same guy who has gone above and beyond in supporting her and had to answer calls from the cops and CPS about abusing his son when he did not do that.

[00:27:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oomph.

[00:27:35] Jordan Harbinger: So this is infuriating. I'm getting—

[00:27:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: So infuriating.

[00:27:38] Jordan Harbinger: —psychopath vibes here, really.

[00:27:40] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, man, it sounds to me like this woman, it's weird. It sounds like on one level she knows exactly what she's doing and then on another level she has a very tenuous relationship to reality, which is, yeah, that's unsettling.

[00:27:51] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Or just pure, like malignant narcissism kind of stuff here.

[00:27:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:27:55] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, she sucks. So I'm on team you guys. I don't like Caitlin either. Sorry, Caitlin. Actually, I'm not sorry at all. I want to see you pay for your bullsh*t. But you're asking a really good question. What do you do about someone like this? Do you let Karma take its course? Or do you become the karma?

[00:28:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: Is that a Batman voice?

[00:28:14] Jordan Harbinger: That's Batman, that's the best I can do. You know, I would say it's a bad Batman voice, but whenever they do that in Batman, it sounds so dumb.

[00:28:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:21] Jordan Harbinger: Because it's just somebody doing a fake low voice and it's like, I couldn't alter that and make it better.

[00:28:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: I like it though. No, it's appropriate.

[00:28:27] Jordan Harbinger: Again, if you listen to the show, you know that when it comes to people like this, I am a big fan. A big fan of becoming the Karma.

[00:28:33] Breaking Bad - Walt: I am the one who knocks. [Soundbite]

[00:28:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: Nice. Dude, that was a perfect soundbite.

[00:28:39] Jordan Harbinger: I've been sitting on that for a minute.

[00:28:42] The challenge is it's hard to take someone like this to task just for being a sh*tty person. At best, you can call them out online. You can warn your friends and family about them, but that's more of a PR solution. It's not even a real solution, especially if this other person has a bunch of Instagram followers. Now, you're just stirring the pot. You're wasting your time feuding with some malicious kook online. But the shady fundraiser, now, that might be something you can work with because misrepresenting yourself on a crowdfunding site or a fundraising platform, first of all, that almost always violates the terms of use of the platform.

[00:29:16] GoFundMe, for example, their terms of use, say something like, all information you provide in connection to your campaign has to be accurate, complete, not likely to deceive reasonable users and so on. And also it clearly states that all donations must be used solely as you describe in your campaign post. You can't say, "I'm going to raise 10K for Aunt Girdy's chemo." And then be like, "Eh, actually me and Aunt G, we're going to use it to fly first class to Florida and hit up Walt Disney World. And then we're going to rent jet skis in Key Largo because she just wants to be happy"

[00:29:44] So at a minimum, you could report her campaign to the platform, share the evidence you have, that she's misappropriated the funds. You know, it might be too late if the funds have already been released, which it sounds like they have, but who knows? Maybe not. And also, they can ban her ass so that she can't do this again on their service in the future.

[00:30:03] The other thing you can do is report Caitlin to the authorities. There are tons of options for that. You can contact your State Consumer Protection Office. You can contact the AG, the attorney general for your state. You can report this to the FBI. I mean, this is wire fraud. It's online fraud. You can report it to the FBI's Internet Crime Complaint Center, the IC3. Or you can file a complaint with the Federal Trade Commission.

[00:30:27] We're going to link to all of those resources along with their websites in the show notes for you. If this were me, I'd be reporting Caitlin shady ass to all the websites, starting with your State Consumer Protection Office and attorney general. This is probably possibly too small for most authorities to look into, or it might batch your report along with other reports about similar cases, and investigate them as a group with certain platforms that facilitate shady fundraisers.

[00:30:52] Now, here's the thing, a lot of times a single fraud complaint is not enough. But I talk to my friend who works in cybercrime in the FBI. And a lot of times they take into consideration, is this a pattern? Like does this person have another GoFundMe every month that's supposed to be for a charity and then they just take the money?

[00:31:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:31:06] Jordan Harbinger: Because if so, they're a criminal and they will take action against people like that.

[00:31:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: Solid advice. My only caveat to that would be to really be sure that she deliberately misappropriated the funds and was being intentionally misleading. Because what if her aunt was like, "I do want to do chemo and I do need to help." And then she goes through — oh, but it's a fake cancer, it's not even real cancer.

[00:31:28] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it was non-cancer.

[00:31:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh yeah, then I take it back. That's definitely fraudulent. I was going to say just be a hundred percent sure that she's actually a criminal and she's not just being like, she didn't change her mind, but now I'm remembering the whole story.

[00:31:38] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:31:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. I take all that back. She's the worse. I got to say, I've really come around to your point of view, Jordan, on people like this. I used to be in the camp of, eh, let it go. These people are annoying. They usually just bury themselves. But over time, I'm getting angrier about shady people who lie and steal to give themselves a free trip to Knots Berry Farm or whatever. And I don't know if that's because there was a guy blasting CNN for 30 minutes at the table next to me this week, or just, I'm growing up. I'm starting to get angry.

[00:32:05] Jordan Harbinger: But yeah, you're still reeling from that.

[00:32:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm still worked up about it. I just feel like everyone sucks. But there's one other thing that doesn't sit right with me in this letter, and that's the whole child support thing, you know how Caitlin is lying about her income to get more money out of you guys. We actually ran this by Corbin Payne, defense attorney and friend of the show. Nice.

[00:32:25] And Corbin said that if you have cause to believe someone you support is lying about their income, you can file for a review. Corbin said this all depends on the court rules and your jurisdiction, but generally, someone could come in and say why they think Caitlin is in a better financial situation than she claims. Maybe she just bought herself a new car, or she's living in a nice house, or she's somehow able to afford to store all of the placenta she's using to paint a portrait of somebody's newborn baby. I don't know what she's up to. Maybe you even point to the trips that she's taken Aunt Girdy with the money and then demand some reasonable discovery of her W-2s 1099, maybe tax returns from her photography/birth doula business, stuff like that.

[00:33:08] Corbin said that this definitely happens with some frequency, so maybe hire a family attorney or go back to the one you worked with before. This is an expense, it's not a crazy expense, but Corbin said it's not overly cheap either. But if it saves you guys from handing over a ton of money to a woman who is lying about her income to get more money out of you, and who, by the way, let's remember, has a track record of using money in questionable ways, then I think it's worth it as long as it's not compromising your stepson in any way, of course, which I assume it's not.

[00:33:39] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, solid advice, Gabe. I would do all of the above. That's how you can hurry karma along a little bit without letting yourself be dragged down to her level of nonsense, hold her accountable. Then let the systems and authorities do their jobs.

[00:33:52] Beyond that though, my advice is to accept that she is a gross, crappy person who is probably living a very stressful life. That's a form of karma too.

[00:34:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:34:00] Jordan Harbinger: I think about that a lot. I mean, imagine keeping all these lies in the air.

[00:34:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oof.

[00:34:05] Jordan Harbinger: Again, that's why I say psychopath or sociopath vibes, because, for me, any little untruth like this would drive me crazy. So to have a bunch of them at the same time is just, ugh, I couldn't get a wink of sleep any night of the week.

[00:34:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:34:18] Jordan Harbinger: But if this person is existing like this, obviously she's either immune to it or she's a mess or both.

[00:34:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: Good point.

[00:34:25] Jordan Harbinger: And also, you got to stay close to your stepson. Give him a great home with you and your husband, because he really needs you guys. Imagine living with somebody like this.

[00:34:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:34:33] Jordan Harbinger: Sending you guys good thoughts. And hey, thanks for letting us be the birth doulas for this advice.

[00:34:38] You can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise, try to use a descriptive subject line that makes our job a lot easier. If there's something you're going through, a big decision that you are wrestling with, or you just want a new perspective on some life, love, work stuff. What to do if your psychopathic brother is terrorizing your family? Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous.

[00:35:05] All right, next up.

[00:35:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I recently discovered that a coworker of mine with the exact same title makes $18,000 more a year than I do. I've been a dedicated employee for four years. While he's only been here for one year, he lives in a territory that produces more sales-wise. But the fact that I produce in my desert of a territory is a testament to my ability. My territory is also complex for a variety of reasons. I've been told more than once by management that it's actually a two-person job, and they find it remarkable that I'm able to service all of these accounts so well. Additionally, for the past year, I've been tasked with handling accounts in another territory I don't own because they haven't been able to find a decent sales rep in the area. I've been happy to help, but I'm feeling taken advantage of considering my pay grade. I feel like I'm making less and saving them two incomes. Still, they've told me I do my job so well. They're considering promoting me to a traveling trainer to teach others how to do the job like I do, but I'm not getting excited. My company has a history of making promises they don't keep. It has a sorority vibe and the owner jokes that he is the HR department. They say it's a safe space and a family, but I expect retribution if I speak up.

[00:36:20] Jordan Harbinger: Okay, so big red flag. Oftentimes this is what toxic workplaces say to justify bad behavior. The family thing, we hear it all the time. Go on.

[00:36:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: The problem is there are a million reasons for me to stay with this company and I have no leverage to leave. How do I diplomatically ask for the salary I deserve without using a coworker's pay as ammunition? Signed, Getting My Bag Without Being a Drag or Raising Red Flags.

[00:36:47] Jordan Harbinger: Well, this is a very common scenario, and I'm sorry you're going through it. I know how frustrating this is but it's also a great opportunity to advocate for what you want. So to be very direct, here's how I'd handle this. First of all, I would take a moment to, A, calculate what you're worth to the company, and B, decide what you want to be paid. Now, this might not be an exact science, but it's easier in a sales role since you're responsible for revenue. Figure out how much business you bring in and how much business you keep in both of the territories that you handle. Then, I would calculate what hiring these two extra people would cost your company. After that, figure out the salary that you want to be paid, as long as that number is equal to or less than the amount they'd pay to hire two more.

[00:37:32] Well, your case is fairly solid. The only thing I would factor in though is that your territory is less lucrative. And that sucks, I know. But the reality is some territories just don't pay as much. It's annoying to find out that your colleague is making 18 grand more than you, but if he's handling a more lucrative territory, well that might be appropriate, but it's still a fair question why he got that territory and you didn't. And it's still a fair point that it's more work to service your territory than the others. So you have to decide what to do about that, whether to approach your accounts in a different way or to move to another territory to take on an extra one, or just accept that your territory won't compensate you as well and find other ways to make it up.

[00:38:12] And at the same time, I would also take this opportunity to figure out what role you really want. Do you want to stick with being a salesperson or do you want to push for that new traveling trainer role that maybe doesn't exist yet? And if you do move, what salary would you want there? Or maybe you just use that traveling trainer offer as a talking point in your negotiation? I'll get back to that in a second. Once you've built your case, then I would approach your boss or bosses and have a conversation about your comp. This could be done by email. It could be done in person, depending on what your relationship is like, and of course, how things are done in your company. But either way, the substance will be the same.

[00:38:49] I would start by telling them how much you enjoy your job and laying out all of the work you've been doing. You're handling these two territories, you're servicing these complicated accounts. You're doing a bang-up job while they take their time hiring a new rep, and haven't given you the partner that you need. Tell them you're happy to do this work, but that you'd like to be fairly compensated for it. Then, share your case with them, what you make versus what you cost, basically to show them why the number you're asking for is both fair and doable. And if you want to push for that traveling trainer role, I would bring that up too.

[00:39:22] And if they're like, "Oh yeah, that, well, we were just saying that would be a cool idea. We're not quite ready to pull the trigger on that yet." "Okay, no problem. I just want to point out that you guys obviously value my approach if you want me to teach it to everyone else, and I appreciate that. But that's one more reason that I feel my comp should be higher."

[00:39:38] The one thing I would not do in this conversation is bring up your coworker's salary. That's useful information, not a card I would play. And actually, it's not even all that relevant. What is relevant is the number that you deserve to be paid, and that's what we're calculating. It's almost like you need to view this situation as your company giving you a promotion and now you're asking for your salary to match the promotion that they kind of already gave you by giving you extra work. That's the mindset I would have.

[00:40:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I totally agree. Solid approach. Hopefully, your boss engages with you and you get the salary you want, or at least a lot closer to it. If you don't though, then I think you need to consider whether this is really the right place for you long term, because you did bring up some other concerns here — how your company makes promises that it doesn't tend to keep, how the owner says that he is the HR department, which, oof, that's the biggest red flag.

[00:40:28] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: That it's a safe space and a family, but you can't really speak up, all of that. Plus the fact that they've been throwing you a ton of new work and they're not paying you anymore.

[00:40:38] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. It all just paints a picture of a place that is not the most functional fair, in my opinion.

[00:40:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm. So, yes, push for the salary you want, and I hope you get it. But if they turn you down, then that's one more reason to consider looking for another job. Honestly, you sound like a really talented salesperson. You're great with customers, you're dedicated, you're a team player. So many companies would love to have somebody like you. So if this negotiation doesn't go your way, don't lose heart. It might just be the push from the nest that you need and that's never fun, but sometimes not getting what you want is actually a gift in a weird way because it makes you realize that there's something better out there.

[00:41:15] Jordan Harbinger: Totally, man. Man, I can relate to that. And by the way, if this person starts casually interviewing around and gets a good offer, they can go back to their boss and say, "So look, I have this other offer. It's really tempting. I want to give you a chance to beat it. Here are my stipulations. You got to hire another salesperson. Or you got to increase my salary or my commission, or you got to gimme a better territory," whatever it is. But I'm with Gabe. I do wonder if there might be a better place for a great employee like you.

[00:41:42] Man, salespeople are the elite athletes of the corporate world, right? They can go anywhere.

[00:41:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:47] Jordan Harbinger: And they're always in demand, even in the worst markets ever. There's a lot more that goes into negotiating a raise. We've covered that in a bunch of other episodes. So we're going to link to those in the show notes. And if you're negotiating in salary or you're planning on doing that, I would give them a listen as you prepare for this conversation. They will be a huge help. So good luck and go get your bag.

[00:42:08] You know it's a great use of your money once you land that raise? The products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

[00:42:17] This episode is sponsored in part by Innovation Refunds. If you own a business, it's been a bumpy ride. Pandemic inflation. I'm sure you could use a break. My friend actually owns this company. I think it's a genius idea. I'm not sure how this is not being done by a jillion of people. If your business has five or more employees and managed to survive COVID, you could be eligible to receive a payroll tax rebate of up to $26,000 per employee. It's not a loan. There's no payback. It is a refund of your taxes. This is your money that you can get back potentially. Sounds to good to be true? So what's the catch? The challenge is getting your hands on it. The government made it nice and simple — oh wait, no, they didn't. So how do you cut through all the red tape and all the back-and-forth nonsense? How do you get your business, this refund money? You go to getrefunds.com/jordan. They've got a team of tax attorneys that they've put together. They're highly trained in this sort of little known payroll tax refund program. They've already returned one billion dollars with a B to businesses, which is mind-blowing. And of course, they're going to try and help you too. They do all the work. There's no charge upfront. That was important. I made sure of that. They simply share a percentage of the cash that they get for you. So basically, If they can't get anything or you're not entitled to anything, you're not like, "Well, crap, I paid for that." You don't pay for that. Businesses of all types can qualify, including those who took PPP loans, that non-profits qualify, even those that had an increase in sales. You don't have to be getting wrecked in order to take advantage of this. So to find out if your business qualifies, just go to getrefunds.com/jordan. Click on Qualify Me and answer a few questions. This payroll tax refund is only available for a limited amount of time, again, good old government. Don't miss out. Go to getrefunds.com/jordan. That's getrefunds.com/jordan.

[00:44:02] This episode is also sponsored by Richard Syrett's Strange Planet. If you're interested in hearing about all kinds of conspiracy theories, you might like to check out a podcast called Richard Syrett's Strange Planet. Three times a week, Richard talks about everything mysterious and unknown, from UFOs to conspiracy theories to legend and lore. Come explore your curiosity with Richard by listening to his interviews about Bigfoot encounters and an episode about alleged UFO crashes in New Mexico, or the episode featuring law enforcement and other first responders who experienced paranormal encounters. So if you're ready to take a walk on the wild side Strange Planet has you covered. Find Richard Syrett's Strange Planet on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

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[00:45:02] Now back to Feedback Friday.

[00:45:05] All right, next up.

[00:45:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a video technician for live events, and earlier this year I did an event for a church in our area that raises money for relief work in the Dominican Republic in Haiti. This all seemed normal and straightforward until the people speaking at the events started mentioning things like, "Let's unite these countries. And our work to get our followers in government on both sides is progressing quickly." Turns out these people are trying to get their followers installed in local governments, hoping to unite them in a theocracy. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. The more they talked, the more nefarious it became, and they're not just doing this in two foreign countries. They're also working to get their members elected in local and federal politics here at home. What do I do? Who do I report this to? Is there even an agency in charge of something like this? Signed, The Muddled Mole.

[00:45:58] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. This is super interesting.

[00:46:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:46:01] Jordan Harbinger: If I overheard this at a private event, especially a religious event, I'd be pretty disturbed too, because it's like, what is this?

[00:46:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:46:09] Jordan Harbinger: Secret cabal vibes? Am I a character in a Brian De Palma movie right now? Like are these people actually do-gooders or is this all just a front for some huge religious conspiracy? It's like a Dan Brown novel. It's unsettling, for sure, but the truth is this sort of thing happens all the time all over the world. I mean, just look at lobbying here in the United States, it's basically a form of legalized corruption. The idea of organizations supporting candidates in the laws they like at home and abroad, just not new. Although the fact that a church is doing this possibly under the guise of relief efforts in foreign countries, that is a little suss, but it was unclear to us whether it's actually illegal. So once again, we turn to the one and only Corbin Payne, who apparently has a lot of time on his hands and we're thankful for that.

[00:46:58] And Corbin reminded us that if this church is a nonprofit designated as a 501(c)(3), then engaging in lobbying, or in any kind of political activity on behalf of a candidate for elective public office, including activity abroad, that's almost certainly a tax code violation. Now, US Tax Law does allow public charities to engage in lobbying, but only if it constitutes no more than an insubstantial part of their overall activities.

[00:47:26] So it's an interesting question whether this church can prove that this lobbying is only a tiny part of what they do, maybe they can, although it doesn't sound insubstantial to me. As Corbin pointed out, if an organization like this church wants to raise money for politicians, then they have to have a different designation, probably a 501(c)(4), which is a nonprofit that's operated exclusively to promote social welfare. A 501(c)(4) is allowed to further its exempt purposes through lobbying as its primary activity without jeopardizing its exempt status.

[00:48:00] So what I would do is go to the IRS website, look up this church's tax status. Now, if they're a 501(c)(3), they might be breaking the tax code. And if that doesn't sit well with you, you can leave a tip with the IRS on their website and tell them what you are seeing and hearing that there's a church making political donations to candidates in Haiti and in the DR in order to create theocratic governments down there.

[00:48:23] Corbin did say that the IRS seems pretty gun-shy these days about pursuing these kinds of cases, so they tend to need a decent amount of detail to be willing to look into it. But the beauty is you're a video tech. You have actual recorded evidence of these statements. And I imagine that would be, yeah, that would be pretty compelling evidence. And then hopefully, the IRS looks into this and if they find any wrongdoing they can take action. Although, frankly, I don't know how realistic this all is. It could take years knowing what we know about how the IRS even works.

[00:48:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. It could be like a decade plus before they get around to that one, the tip line is probably pretty backed up, but Corbin shared another take with us that was pretty fascinating, which is that this church might not be quite as nefarious as you think or as it seems. In his experience, a lot of churches tend to get involved in charity efforts in other countries, and sometimes they spread a lot of money around thinking that they're helping, you know, good godly people gain political influence, again, a sort of legalized bribery, loosely speaking. But at the end of the day, what they're often doing is just paying money to candidates and officials and, you know, political fixers, people like that in order to advance their agenda.

[00:49:35] So these people will meet the church officials and they'll say, "Yeah, we totally believe in what you guys are preaching and we are big supporters of your church. And sure, we'll take your money. Just hand it over to us and we will advance your interest down here." As Corbin put it to us, it's possible that the word has gotten out among officials in Haiti and the DR and who knows what other countries that there are these, you know, Yankee do-gooders who will spend a ton of money if they advance their agenda. In other words, this church might be the one that's getting taken for a ride.

[00:50:05] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that was a fascinating theory and I could, I could totally see that happening. Although I would argue that even if the church is getting fleeced by shady politicians in Haiti and the DR, they're also doing something wrong by using their money and influence in this way.

[00:50:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm, sure.

[00:50:21] Jordan Harbinger: They could be breaking the US Tax Law and also be naive and a victim.

[00:50:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: Totally. At a minimum, I think it's safe to say that this is probably a gross misuse of church funds, assuming that they're taking money that they literally raised from their followers to, you know, rebuild highways or build new homes in these countries, and then paying officials or launching candidacy or whatever they're doing down there, if that's what they're doing, yeah, this is not cool.

[00:50:46] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. So my advice, hey, do some homework. It's pretty easy. Consider reporting them if you feel moved to do so. And as you know from my take on Caitlin, the birth doula, I'm big on reporting people like this, but — I guess I'm a little bit of a Karen when it comes to people like this, but that's up to you. And we're going to link to all the laws and resources we mentioned in the show notes for you so you can read them for yourself. But also just keep in mind that what you heard at this event, it might be illegal, but it is by no means uncommon that doesn't make it right. I just think it's important to recognize all the forms of corruption, legal and illegal, that exists all around us in this country as well.

[00:51:25] All right, next up.

[00:51:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a college student with a job trying to build up my savings and pay for an upcoming wedding, and I just bought a bunch of stuff on Ali Express to sell—

[00:51:35] Jordan Harbinger: That's a Chinese marketplace, by the way.

[00:51:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: —to sell on an Amazon storefront to make some extra money. I just listened to your interview with Nury Turkel about China's Uyghur genocide—

[00:51:44] That was episode 730, by the way, if anyone wants to check it out.

[00:51:48] —and I really don't want to support these practices. In the interview, you guys talked about Americans being addicted to the cheap price tag of goods, and I don't want to be complicit in funding this form of slavery just because I can sell it back home for a big profit. Unfortunately, I have a ton of products already. Everything is set up except for the storefront, and I'm very much in the red with my investment in this business. How can I best support human rights without compromising my financial situation? Signed, The Conscientious Capitalist Concerned About Coming Up Short.

[00:52:20] Jordan Harbinger: Ooh, great question. First of all, I love that you're so ambitious and you're resourceful, especially at such a young age. You seem smart, you seem hard-working, and I admire the side hustle that you've got going. But I also admire your moral compass, especially when it comes to the Uyghur situation, which is just horrifying and it's unacceptable.

[00:52:39] So my take on this question is yes, do whatever you can to avoid supporting terrible regimes, avoid products manufactured by states that are perpetrating human rights abuses, vote with your wallet and all that. I fully support this, but at the same time, I think we all have to accept that it is virtually impossible in today's world to not support some terrible practices, even by accident, and that we can only do our best.

[00:53:07] And it really pains me to say that because that interview with Nury was so eye-opening and the thought of accidentally even supporting a genocide, it just makes me so sick to my stomach. But if it's not China and Uyghurs, it's, I don't know, countries that use slave labor to staff fishing boats or the chocolate that you're eating is farmed by kids working in slavery or regimes that persecute LGBT people are shipping your stuff or states that destroy forests or whatever. It's just really hard to not contribute directly or indirectly to something awful somewhere. And also you've already bought the product and not selling it will put you in a precarious position.

[00:53:46] So my advice is, hey, sell the product you have and then source your next batch from a different country if you can. You bought this stuff when you didn't know the full story. And now, you do, you can do better next time. And that's okay. You're learning. That's what matters. I think you're morally kind of cool here. You did it without knowing. I mean, what are you going to do? And my opinion might be different if you had, I don't know, bought sweatshirts that you knew for a fact were sewn by Uyghurs at a labor camp or something. Although part of the problem is that we often just have no idea where our goods are coming from, and you might still be indirectly supporting terrible practices, and that's what makes this whole issue so complex. So it's hard.

[00:54:27] That said, there are a couple of really easy things you can do to play your part here. First, buy domestic goods whenever you can. The more local, the better. Assuming that you live in Finland or Costa Rica and not like Eritrea or something. Obviously, if you live in a questionable country yourself, local goods are a problem too. But again, all countries are corrupt on some level. Even the US does pretty heinous stuff, I don't think that's a surprise to anybody. So you just have to do your best.

[00:54:53] Second, do your homework on your suppliers. Look for legit certifications. Confirm certain standards, study their supply chain however you can. I know that's pretty hard in the eCommerce world, especially for a small business, but you know, just do your best. And finally, there's this really cool plugin you can download for Chrome. I'm going to link to it in the show notes because the name escapes me. This plugin shows you where sellers are located, especially on Amazon. It will literally, you'll look at a product on Amazon, it'll say, "This is made in China, this other alternative." It'll show you US-based alternatives. If the sellers overseas, it'll say, "Here's three sellers that sell the same thing that are based in the United States."

[00:55:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh wow. That's really cool.

[00:55:30] Jordan Harbinger: And often the product is slightly different, and sometimes it's a few dollars more, but it might even be higher quality. Or you can see, oh, the China one was a rip-off of this US-made or this US company-generated version of the same thing. And you'll end up with a higher quality product a lot of the time. This is very, very helpful. We now have an affiliate code for this, so we're going to drop that link for that plugin in the show notes. So click on that before you buy the product. We get a little tiny cut, which I promise we're going to use ethically. We're going to buy Gabe some of his weird fair trade — is it Baozhong tea? Or we're going to get him yet another ethically sourced essential oils diffuser. Hey, you can never have too many of those, right?

[00:56:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh man. Still in the market for one and that is not a joke.

[00:56:12] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, yeah. And you don't want to slave labor created—

[00:56:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: No.

[00:56:15] Jordan Harbinger: —essential oils diffuser. The irony there is just terrible.

[00:56:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. What is that? What is that scent? Is that human rights abuses? Yeah, that's not what I want to smell enough—

[00:56:23] Jordan Harbinger: This is forced labor. Oh, it's notes of cinnamon and—

[00:56:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: Notes of sadness.

[00:56:28] Jordan Harbinger: Yes. Children's tears. If anyone has any other ways to avoid indirectly supporting awful stuff around the world, do drop us a line. We'd love to learn more and we can pass that along to the listener as well. We can even link in the show notes for the episode. Look, it's a dark world. It's incredibly hard to stop and think about, but we can all do a small part to help make things a little bit better. So focus on that. And hey, best of luck with your new storefront. I hope it's a success. And congrats on the wedding. Just make sure you ethically source the food and centerpiece too.

[00:57:00] Hope you all enjoyed that. I want to thank everyone who wrote in this week and everybody who listened. Thank you so much. Don't forget to check out Dave Farina on junk science, science myths, and pseudoscience and Yass Alizadeh on the Iran protest. That's our new Out of The Loop segment. Let me know what you think of those episodes. You all know how to reach me.

[00:57:17] If you want to know how I managed to book all the great people that you hear on the show. It's about software, systems, and tiny habits. I use these habits every day. The course is free. Six-Minute Networking is the name. Five-minute networking was taken. It's over on the Thinkific platform at jordanharbinger.com/course. There is where I'm teaching you how to dig the well before you get thirsty and build relationships before you need them. They take a few minutes a day. Ignore this stuff at your own peril. I wish I knew this stuff 20 years ago. It has helped me a ton. Again, it's free, jordanharbinger.com/course.

[00:57:48] A link to the show notes for the episode can be found at jordanharbinger.com. Transcripts are in the show notes. Advertisers, deals, and discounts are all at jordanharbinger.com/deals. Please consider supporting those who make the show possible. I'm at @JordanHarbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. You can find Gabe on Instagram at @GabrielMizrahi or on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi.

[00:58:11] This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, Josh Ballard, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. And I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer, so do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Ditto Corbin Payne. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. And hey, if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who can use the advice that we gave here today. Spread that love a little bit. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time.

[00:58:47] I wanted to give you a quick bite of the episode I did with Mark Cuban of Shark Tank and Dallas Maverick's fame. Mark gives advice to entrepreneurs and founders in these uncertain times. Tells us how he stays on top of trends in technology and how the US can compete with China.

[00:59:03] Mark Cuban: When everybody's afraid, the best way to deal with it is by coming together. It certainly seems a lot bigger than anything we've seen, you know, in my lifetime and the combination of the protests and looting and the pandemic, all these things combined together to make for really uncertain times. And when people are uncertain about their future, that's why people rebel.

[00:59:25] Martin Luther King said, "Roiting is the voice of the unheard." The only surprise is that it's taken this long.

[00:59:30] Kaepernick did even bring the focus to himself, you know, he just happened to be taking a knee and somebody caught him with a phone camera.

[00:59:37] Jordan Harbinger: What would you have done in that moment, if that time, if he were your player, would you, how would you have handled that?

[00:59:42] Mark Cuban: I'd hug him.

[00:59:42] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:59:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:59:45] Jordan Harbinger: If you were president, how would you improve race relations?

[00:59:48] Mark Cuban: I mean, I'd hug a few people.

[00:59:49] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:59:49] Mark Cuban: You know, I'd walk out there and listen, you know, I'd take advice. I wouldn't think I had all the answers.

[00:59:55] Jordan Harbinger: This piece you wrote, "Dear White People, we're the ones that need to change. This is probably controversial. I would imagine you get some blowback from something like that, for sure.

[01:00:02] Mark Cuban: A lot of people felt I was calling them out as racist, which I wasn't doing. In order, for things to change, then people need to take measures and understand, be very self-aware about what's going on with them and how people are living their lives.

[01:00:17] Jordan Harbinger: A lot of people don't seem to have much to look forward to right now. What do you think we should be looking forward to as a nation?

[01:00:22] Mark Cuban: I mean, look, there's no better time to start a business than right now because all businesses are effectively going through a reset, and so there's a lot of advantages and with the protests and the riots, that gives us just one inkling of hope that maybe we'll make progress. Maybe this time we'll listen.

[01:00:39] Jordan Harbinger: For more with Mark Cuban, including the future of the technology economy, check out episode 362 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.