1213: Orion Taraban | Understanding Relationship Economics Part Two

1213: Orion Taraban | Understanding Relationship Economics Part Two

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Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On the Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker through long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, and performers, even the occasional organized crime figure, former jihadi, economic hitman, gold smuggler, or hostage negotiator.

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Just visit Jordan harbinger.com/start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started. Today, part two with Orion Ban. If you haven't heard part one, obviously go back and check it out. This is a great conversation, very in depth, and we are rolling full steam through [00:01:00] part two here. Here we go with Orion Ban.

Alright, I'd love to talk about why dating apps don't work for most people. I find this topic fascinating. I've never really had a date online. I never used it really, even when it did exist, it was sort of again, match.com days and it was like, no thanks. Back then, that was for old people and I was like 27 and it was like, I can go out to a bar and meet five new women tonight that may go out with me at some point.

Yeah, I can fart around match.com for five months and maybe meet a couple of people that way, and they're all like five to seven years older than me. That was not working for me at that time.

Orion Taraban: Dating apps are interesting. I was an early adopter of dating apps. I got on my first one probably in 2001. I found them to be really interesting for some reason, and I do recall that the general attitude towards dating apps back then were, they were for losers.

They were for weirdos who for whatever reason can't meet another human being in real life. [00:02:00] Fast forward 25 years and more than 50% of couples that got married this year in the United States met on a dating app, and that has basically tripled in the last decade. So it's gone from being a fringe technology to being completely mainstream.

So to say that it doesn't work for people is probably wrong. Doesn't work for a

Jordan Harbinger: lot of casual dating. It can, I suppose so. But the stats are pretty grim. I think. Yes. People get married by meeting online. It seems like the top 1% of guys, these are from stats that I got from the match company. Like a, a lot of the whistleblowers, an extreme example, but people who've worked in these apps will say things like.

The top one to 5% of men get like 98% of the matches, and it might even be more than that. It's just hard to quantify this. I've heard it more of the Pareto, like the top 20 get 80%, that's for sure. True. But it's also like the top one and even stronger.

Orion Taraban: Yeah, crazier. If you are a [00:03:00] hot dude, you've got some good pictures of your chiseled abs, you're gonna clean up on dating apps for sure.

It's gonna be a casual sex funnel.

Jordan Harbinger: It is, and I've seen this just with my friends as well. I've got a buddy who's a model and I've got a bunch of normal friends. I actually have two friends that are models and a bunch of normal friends. Those guys will be in the same geographic area on the exact same app, and my friends are successful, good looking people with six figure jobs.

This model's like a crypto trader, but he is a model. They're in the same income bracket, let's say we will go out to lunch. The guys will get universally zero matches, but he will get 35. If you do this with women that are various levels of attractive and they're on dating apps in a geographic area, again, just anecdotally, friends of mine, some will get 10 to 80 matches over the course of one meal.

Others will get hundreds, I'm not exaggerating, hundreds of likes or matches or whatever while we are eating dinner or lunch. That will happen in the [00:04:00] same area. So there's a, an assessment, and again, probably not scientific, where you see nine out of 10 women and the arrows pointing to the guy at the top and then you see the guys at the bottom getting almost nothing from that same group.

Orion Taraban: It's really hard if you are not an attractive guy to get anywhere on a dating app. It's very hard if you are short guy. There is zero evidence that men's height correlates with being. Loyal or kind or a good father, or all the things that women say with their mouths that they want from a man, they just don't get matches.

It's tragic. I think

Jordan Harbinger: you say this in the book, some men on these apps, women think they're being chased by a million men. That's the perception that's created

Orion Taraban: in that, even if they don't get matches, the unsuccessful man, at least when he starts, does operate under that illusion, which is, there's just, in New York City, Los Angeles, a major metro area, you will never run out of people to swipe on functionally.

So even if you have to be burnt out for a long time to finally [00:05:00] give up on them, because it's almost like a gambling addict chasing the JA pod. It's like, like one more poll, the next one's gonna be lucky. 'cause on some level, that's an accurate statistical assessment, infinite set that machine's gotta pay out at some point.

You know what I'm saying? I

Jordan Harbinger: also wonder how current some of these profiles are. This is years ago, but one of her friends is like, I got bad news. I saw Jordan on Tinder. And she's like, are you on Tinder? And I was like, no. And then we looked and found this ancient photo of me that she's like, oh, this is you.

Yeah, you would never use this photo. It was so obviously like this is an old account because it's like if I was really using Tinder, this is the last fricking profile photo I would use. I'm like 40 pounds heavier wearing a hat and just like something stuck in my

Orion Taraban: teeth. That's hilarious. I saw on Instagram the other day that said basically like real players, when they go out on dates, they wear clothes that were fashionable five years ago.

So if there's any photographic evidence, they could say that there was an outdated picture.

Jordan Harbinger: I have a popped collar. Do you really think [00:06:00] that's, that's really smart. They're wearing like a Theranos hat, something like that. Yeah, it's really funny. Look, I'm sympathetic to women on the dating apps

Orion Taraban: screening for height.

It's hard for women too. It's just hard in different ways. And both sides think that they could live with the other side's problems. I think.

Jordan Harbinger: So. I heard a really good theory. I wonder what you think of this. So my buddy said, look, I'm sympathetic. He tells his clients, he's also a coach. He tells his clients, if you're under six feet, don't really bother with the apps.

'cause it's actually easier to approach in real life and meet women that way. 'cause you're not getting screened out. If you're over six feet, you can use the apps because you're gonna get screened in by a lot of these filters. And I was like, oh, that's so terrible. These women are so shallow. Wha wha wha.

And he's like, no, let me pause you right there. Jordan. Women have to screen somehow because they get a hundred matches in an hour. So they start to screen by more arbitrary and less important to them factors over and over. So it's like a woman who would absolutely go out with you, even though you're quote unquote only five eight and making 80 KA year and you're a dental [00:07:00] hygienist.

She doesn't care about that. But when she has 250 people that day to screen through. She's going to screen for income and height because what the hell, she still has 40 guys to sift through at the end of raising that slider all the way to the right.

Orion Taraban: Well, she might screen for attached versus detached ear lobes.

At that point, when women have that kind of optionality, just being an attractive, tall, rich man is not enough. Like you see this most obviously, if you talk to folks who live in Dubai. Dubai is like the pinnacle of this phenomenon. Sometimes, guys. Especially young guys, they make a lot of money in crypto.

They're worth 50, a hundred million dollars. They're thinking, I'm gonna buy a Lambo and go to Dubai and date all of these smoke shows. Turns out every fucking guy's got a Lamborghini and that woman went on a date yesterday with a billionaire. So like, your money ain't good here. We just assumed that you're rich and we [00:08:00] assume that you have a Lamborghini.

So therefore it doesn't matter anymore. In my criteria process, whoa, shit. Maybe that guy would've been better played, sticking in a smaller pond and being a bigger fish. Just buy a

Jordan Harbinger: million followers on TikTok and have some professional produced videos. Now you have the fame lever that a lot of those other crypto bros don't have, but then you're on the radar of the authorities.

Have fun in Dubai. I really, I do feel like the dating levers are screwed up online. And that's why I'm saying it doesn't necessarily work for men and women. 'cause they're like, I have to screen for income and height and detach your attached ear lobes and I don't care about that. But I otherwise have so much choice that it's screwing me up.

There was a study, man, I wish I'd come prepared with this, but there was a study they did, it was like A BYU or something, like a religious university. And they found out that a Mormon religious university at that Yes. Like very, you're gonna get married by the time you graduate. Most likely.

Orion Taraban: Yes.

Jordan Harbinger: And they found that in certain, they did this at more than one place, but they found that in certain pools, women were more promiscuous when they [00:09:00] quote unquote had to be like, there were way more women than men and they were way less promiscuous when there were way more men than women.

And you see this in dating economies like New York for example, where for a man, it's, if you're dating in New York. Think, oh my God, it's so hard. There's all these finance guys, it's gonna be impossible. Dating in New York is awesome for guys. Really, really hard for

Orion Taraban: women. Kid county store. And this also plays into traditional gender expressions of behavior.

So like some of the most feminine women in the world in the traditional sense of behavioral expression are in Russia. And Russia's one of the major markets with the largest gender disparity. There's like almost 60% women to 40% men. So the Intrasexual competition for even just an average guy is

Jordan Harbinger: intense.

And in addition to that, the women live a lot longer, I think, than the men in that particular country as well. So you end up with, yes, it's 40, 60, but then when you take [00:10:00] people who are like in the dating pool, like not dead, not married, not grandpas, you have a even higher disparity. And then it's, oh, I want somebody who can afford to actually raise a family and doesn't work in a mine or isn't drafted in Ukraine right now.

Orion Taraban: The numbers whittle down fast are not only very performatively feminine, but they're also very sexually aggressive. It's like they know what guys want, they know what guys like, and they cater to those desires, which is a great way of getting what you want. Again, if it works in business, it works in dating, it's if I show up with the skillset that you are looking for as an employer and I do a good job, you will reward me with a paycheck.

It's not just you don't show up and be like, I want a paycheck. In fact, in most professional hiring processes, you don't even talk about the compensation until like the very last meeting, and it's in this indirect way, or it's through proxies in the contracts and lawyers and things like that. Most of the time it's about demonstrating that I could be

Jordan Harbinger: a value to you.

That's a [00:11:00] sort of market disparity issue, right? When I negotiate my contracts, for example, I hold the power in that equation, right? Because there's not that many podcasts that have this amount of audience. So my agent goes in and goes, we want this much and we want this. And then SiriusXM and Podcast one and I, whatever Odyssey, throw down their numbers and he goes, nah, that's not good enough and it's too long.

And there's this game of where they pretend that's unacceptable and that they really, that's how they do all their deals. And he goes, I don't care. And then he just goes to the next. You can do that in tech too. If you're an AI expert and you go to Dropbox and they're like, we're gonna give you 250 K, and you go, oh, thanks for having me come in.

I appreciate it. I have a meeting at Snapchat. I will be back in touch. And they're like, wait a minute, because they know you're worth $2.5 million.

Orion Taraban: As I talk about in the book, the most powerful player in any relationship, whether it's romantic or professional, gets more of what he or she wants and less of what he or she doesn't, which is why people [00:12:00] seek after power.

It's not for its own sake, it's what power can do. Generally, it's in the professional arena, the company that has more power, it's like in most cases, the employee needs that job more than the employer needs that employee. The only way to potentially turn that on its head is to become just like a rock star in what you do, and then you're probably not an employee anymore, so you're not even in that situation.

You've launched your own thing at that point because it's just better to hold. Cards and offer the opportunities to others than to use even your mastery and cachet to seek opportunities from those who can give them and then therefore take them away.

Jordan Harbinger: It's interesting, I've got some sort of, I gotta be careful how I phrase this, like very highly qualified unicorny type people in tech that I'm friends with that go from like nineties Google employee to C-Suite at Amazon.

And it's [00:13:00] actually insane how the numbers they're throwing around and it's just crazy and it's, oh, we want you to move to this place. Oh, okay. What are you gonna offer me? We'll give you a relocation bonus of X. No, I'm gonna need 20 times that. Okay, done. What else do you need? Well, maybe

Orion Taraban: they say done. It can be that these rock stars can.

Dictate their own offers, but they could also price themselves out of the marketplace. And they almost certainly can't work for the next big thing because they don't have the war chest to hire somebody like that. This happens with athletes all the time, is they're used to these enormous contracts and it's very hard for people to take a step backwards with respect to their compensation.

They'll only do that for some sort of like really meaningful passion project and only once they have enough money.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, exactly. I was gonna say, people I think of, they'll take a job for basically zero, because when you have $500 million, what's the difference? If you're enjoying what you're doing, but you're right at that point in tech, you go for equity, right?

I know you can't [00:14:00] afford 2.5 million, so I'll take 250 K, but I want 10% of the company, and

Orion Taraban: people can price themselves out of the sexual marketplace as well. It's more likely that women will do this than men. Women just have more options than men do, and this is also, especially when they're young. And the tragic thing is that typically.

Switches over the course of a lifespan, whereas young women tend to be more powerful and have more options than young men. And that switches around the age of 30 is where the average man and the average woman are pretty much equal power structure. And then the man becomes more powerful for the rest of his life.

And so it could be the case that a very attractive woman who's 22 can be flown out by a prince in Saudi Arabia and could be courted by millionaires and flying first class to their yachts in the Mediterranean. And they get anchored at that price point. It's gonna be very difficult for them to [00:15:00] accept a lower offer, but she's also potentially losing her marketplace value as a function of time, which is gonna make it more difficult for her to secure those kinds of perks from men who are as attractive that she's used to dealing with.

And so. A lot of this comes down to maybe trying to sell a house in a bad market, especially if you don't need the money right away. A lot of homeowners aren't going to sell at a loss. They'll just say, well, just hold onto it. Even if that potentially means that it's just going to lose even more money.

Sometimes the right thing to do is just to cut your loss as quickly as possible and to accept the fact that you're not gonna profit on every transaction that you do. But that's very hard psychologically for anybody to do.

Jordan Harbinger: What's the play when you're in your twenties as a woman? Enjoy as much as you can, but then get more realistic as you enter your thirties with who you make long term, because that's what

Orion Taraban: they're doing.

That's what they do in general, and that's running into some difficulties for sure. I [00:16:00] made an episode called What Women Want, where I explore that question, and the short answer is that women want what other women want, which is true, but not very satisfying. So if you wanna know what women want, you have to look at what other women are doing.

Especially through the lens of social media. 'cause that's generally how we look at people these days. And if you look at the type of women that most women are looking at, what are they doing? They're doing everything. They are bosses and they have their own company and they're doing TED talks, but they also are married and they have three kids and they're vacationing in the Maldives and they're a girls girl.

They'll go out with their ladies to the Miami nightclubs or it's like they're doing fucking everything. Of course, this is a highlight reel and it's very heavily curated and they're often very beautiful and very rich and very exceptional people. So sometimes people forget about those qualifiers, right?

And so if you as a woman want to do all of the things, then you have to be careful about the [00:17:00] order in which you do things. Because if doing a means that it blocks off the pathway to B, then you gotta be sure to do B first before you do a okay. The real world context, especially what we're talking about is having kids.

When you have young children, unless you are very rich and don't want to be an involved mother, you're not gonna be going to Dubai. You're not gonna be going out to the clubs with your girlfriends, you're not gonna be having Michelin star dinners. You're gonna be at home trying to keep your house from looking like a disaster zone like we were discussing earlier, and that forecloses some opportunities.

So it's okay. I do wanna have the messy kids and the family and things like that, so I'll do that after I go to the nightclubs and I go to travel around the world and I get a master's degree and I start my business when I think realistically, it might make more sense to do it the other way around. As I say, the kind of bitter truth is [00:18:00] if a woman at 38 who's been a career woman, all of her adult life suddenly decides that she wants to be a wife and mother, it's going to be difficult for her, but.

If a woman who's been a mother up until she turns 38, decides she wants to become an employee, she can do that. She can have that experience if she really wants to. She could go get a master's degree at 38. She could travel around the world probably in more sustainable luxury at 38 than at 22 if she's flying in her own dime, of course.

So it does push things back, but it makes sense to strike when the iron is hot. For women, when they're young, it's like that's when they're more attractive, and attraction is the most relevant power in romantic relationships. So that's when they have the most power, and you wanna negotiate the best offer that you can while you're still the more powerful player, and you're not going to be the more powerful player, except in some very rare [00:19:00] circumstances when you get into your thirties and forties.

As a woman, this is a really uncomfortable truth for people to hear. I was not consulted in the design phase with respect to human reproduction. This is just how it is.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Orion Taraban: When

Jordan Harbinger: I say anything that even remotely looks like this online, I get people sort of straw manning, like, how dare you imply that a woman is only valuable when she's young in her twenties?

Which is not what I'm saying all, not what I'm saying either. But also no, women are like fine wine. They get better with age. Look, they're smarter, they know more things, they're better, uh, sexually, et cetera, whatever. And I believe that as well. But I think, can we put a finer point on this? 'cause I think a lot of people when they hear this are like, this guy doesn't know what he's talking about.

This is a bunch of crap. Women in their twenties. You get guys who say, I would never date one of those. What are they gonna talk about?

Orion Taraban: I think that's true, is I have dated some very young women in their early twenties, and I don't enjoy dating them. I find them on the whole to be dull and uninteresting, and their brains haven't [00:20:00] fully developed yet, which means that they're having trouble with basic adulting skills like emotional regulation and.

Effective communication, and I just find that dull. I don't have the time or the inclination to train somebody for a relationship. You have to come with the skills already. Okay? So that's not my romantic ideal, but it does seem like, according to all the research that consistently, no matter how old they are, men say that women in their early twenties are the most attractive women on the planet.

That doesn't change that the guy is 18 or 80 years old. They still want the 22-year-old, at least as a sexual partner. Older women often have a lot more to speak for themselves, like they're often professionally accomplished. They can be intelligent. They can be experienced. They often have much fewer hangups around sex, which is great too.

A 4-year-old is like, I think you're cute. We're both adults. Let's do this. It's almost. This huge relief to just deal with someone who's direct and [00:21:00] doesn't have a lot of the baggage that young women are saddled with by their families and their cultures around sex. We certainly don't teach women how to handle that power correctly.

It's either we shame it and good girls don't do this, or it's like you just are shaking your beauty on Instagram for millions of people. There has to be some mature middle ground there. But at 18, you know, I wasn't mature either, so it's like maturity is, maybe that's asking too much of 18 year olds, but all those things that maybe older women have more to offer.

The careers, the experience, the maturity, the cat decides what milk is good, and I don't look at a woman and think, oh man, check out the master's degree on that one. You know what I'm saying? Damn. She looks like she can communicate her emotions effectively, break credentials. So it's like that's not attraction.

That's like the guy saying, I'm nice and sweet and kind. Why don't any women want me? [00:22:00] It's the same thing with different variables, and women have to understand that unfortunately the attraction comes first and it's not for women to decide. Men should find it hot that a woman is intelligent and educated and experienced.

It's like the cat decides what milk is good. You don't get to decide those things. Some guys who maybe are

Jordan Harbinger: a little bit more self-actualized realize that might be better for them, but doesn't really change the base switches of physical attraction.

Orion Taraban: It sounds like that's what you're saying. I think that's certainly true, and I'll go one step further, which is I think that this is kind of a failure of intersexual understanding, which is that in general we know that women like successful, competent, powerful.

That's what they're drawn to. It's like no accident that all of their romance novels are about mysterious, odd billionaires or some kind of mythological creature that could otherwise murder them. You know what I'm saying? So [00:23:00] that's what women are attracted to, but the failure of intersectional understanding is basically whether it's conscious or not, they say, oh, that's what I'm attracted to, therefore, that's what must be attractive, period.

Therefore, I will embody those things and therefore become more attractive to men, because that's just what's attractive. There's no difference between men and women. That's just objectively attractive, and that's not true. You see it with guys in today's day and age where it's okay, maybe what are they attracted to?

In women, traditionally, it's like femininity, about gentleness, about softness, vulnerability, being open with their feelings. And so a lot of modern men are leading with that. They're becoming more feminine and modern. Women are becoming more masculine. Because they think it's what the other party wants. We were talking about that earlier.

They're trying to signal, I can give you what I think that you're looking for because if I can't signal that, you have no reason to even speak to me. But I think that we have to potentially approach [00:24:00] the possibility that men and women are attracted to different things.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I don't think that's super controversial.

I mean, y yes, I'm gonna get angry people emailing both of us about this, but I think my listeners are relatively sophisticated, the men and the women, and I think a lot of people, especially in their thirties and forties, are gonna go, yeah, that tracks. I think it's a lot of young people tend to have these very black and white opinions.

Orion Taraban: Ideology is about the way that things should be, and they believe that they're performing part of the solution by maintaining values aligned with that framework of how they would prefer to see the world. I think that more or less, you're more effective if you decide what is and not. What should be or ought to be and

Jordan Harbinger: plan your strategies around reality.

Relationships, cost, time, money, and sometimes your sanity. These sponsors only cost you money and way less of it. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Quilt Mind. I've always thought of [00:25:00] LinkedIn as a place to stay connected professionally, but Dove from Quilt Mind, who's a friend of mine, a good friend of mine, made me realize I wasn't using it to its full potential.

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And again, it's free. I don't need your credit card. I don't even want your credit card. Maybe later, but this course is free for real@sixminutenetworking.com. Now back to Orion Ban. I've seen a lot of age gap policing among dating the other day I said something like a 42-year-old man dating a 28-year-old woman.

Is not abnormal. It's a big age gap, but it's not like insane. And this woman said, you are literally mentally [00:29:00] ill and someone should check your hard drive. Kind of a funny roast.

Orion Taraban: But it's interesting because like I'm pretty sure those women are consenting, enthusiastic participants in that. So why isn't that woman has damaged daddy issues?

Like I would probably be more effective in changing the dynamic than trying to shame men. Women are more sensitive to shame than men are. So if you shame the women, the large age gaps would probably disappear more quickly than trying to shame men. So my

Jordan Harbinger: brother is, I think 43. I have to check the papers.

He married a woman, she was 27, but she's from Eastern Europe. And so her parents, they love him and they saw absolutely no problem with this whatsoever.

Orion Taraban: What are some of the things that women are attracted to? They want at least a man who is stable and can provide. I don't know any 22 year olds or even 27-year-old, no man who can do that.

Like one in a couple hundred if they got lucky in tech or something like that, right? Or they're like

Jordan Harbinger: a farmer and they're working with their on their dad's farm and inherited that,

Orion Taraban: that guy. But the tech guy might have the provision, but they [00:30:00] also might be an emotional idiot because they've dealt with tools and codes his whole life and hasn't talked to a woman.

So women also want emotional maturity and self-awareness. Guess what? You don't get those things at 23 or 24, or in my case, you gotta turn 40 before you figure some of your shit out. You want to understand women and yourself and to be successful and accomplish and have skills and be able to provide and strong enough to protect and willing to share.

So, generous enough to do that. It's like you have to be looking at thirties men at least, and probably in their forties. Now criticism. All right. Your audience is very vocal. You've mentioned multiple times that you're gonna get a lot of nasty comments. It

Jordan Harbinger: will be from, you know what's ironic is the nasty comments are not mostly going to come from women.

They're going to come from young guys. That's who tends to, [00:31:00] I think they call it white knighting online. I'm going to get emails from 20 something year old women who are gonna say, A lot of this was uncomfortable for me, but I respect it. I like differing viewpoints. I don't agree with this, this, and this, and this.

Love the show. Thank you. I'm gonna get emails from 30, 40, 50 something year old women, 60 something year old women who are like, wow, this was really insightful and interesting. I never heard it articulated like that, and I agree with it. I'm gonna get emails from older guys who are like, wow, finally someone's talking about this.

I'd never really put this into words. And then I'm gonna get emails from 20 and 30 something year old men who are losing their freaking minds. That we would dare poison the zeitgeist with this manosphere red pill incel nonsense. And where did he get his PhD from? A cracker jack box. And you should be ashamed of yourself.

And I'm giving you a one star review and I'm emailing your sponsors and telling them that you hate women. That's what I'm gonna say. And it's gonna be very few of them, but it's going to be people whose identity has been rocked by this stuff. Even [00:32:00] if it's a scientific study that just pushes them a little bit off whatever pedestal they've been standing on and makes them feel like they're in a precarious position.

That makes people really uncomfortable. When I make people uncomfortable on the show, they get angry, older, more well adjusted ones. They go, wow, I'm adjusting my worldview. Thank you. And other people will just be like, I'm never listening to your show again, because I have a tingly feeling that I can't handle.

Orion Taraban: Yeah, I think that's kind of well said. With respect to the various demographics, the age and gender. Yeah. That kind of tracks.

Jordan Harbinger: It won't be that bad. Look, if I lost listeners every time I made people feel that uncomfortable tingle, no one would listen to this. Most of the people I think that are still with me after 18 plus years, they're fine having their worldview adjusted and they're also fine going, Jordan, this guy was so full of shit, but I still like you.

I'll tune in for the next one. That's fine. But there was a group of people, and you see these in YouTube comments if you ever read them, which I have stopped. They just can't handle any sort of thing that rocks the worldview the way that they wish the world was. If you push against that at all, they just can't handle [00:33:00] it.

This is also the

Orion Taraban: paradox, which is that it's always when I offer some sort of feedback on female dating behavior that's problematic. If I say that most guys are unattractive, boring, have the personality of a wet paper bag, no one is gonna get up in arms about that. And on my channel I give it to men. I think just as hard if not harder than women, take that outta context.

But the kind of weird paradox is that like. Are women strong and capable, or are they like these fragile endangered animals that need protection? And I think everyone is confused about what they are in today's day and age, and can they be both, sometimes fragile and sometimes powerful? Who gets to decide that?

Is it unilaterally? One person gets to decide how the other gender is supposed to perceive them? These are actually very difficult questions to answer, but I [00:34:00] think that women are strong enough and intelligent enough and mature enough to get feedback and because what's the alternative is they're perfect in every way and they're doing absolutely everything, right?

It's like how narcissistic is that?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I try not to treat my audience like children. The only time I sort of nanny at all is when I'm talking about. Drugs, pharmaceuticals, risky behavior. What do you mean nanny? Does that mean? Um, well, I won't take a gambling sponsor because even though everyone who listens is an adult and can make their own decisions, I don't wanna endorse a vice like that.

I don't take vaping sponsors, I won't do certain kinds of investments because they can be complicated and people might say, well, Jordan does this, and I don't invest in a crappy fake real estate investment trust that has a $500 opening limit. I do a lot of stuff like that. But when it comes to the content of the show, very rarely do I go, these people aren't gonna like hearing that.

That's fine, as long as it's based in science fact or good faith opinion. On some level, people [00:35:00] have

Orion Taraban: to disagree with at least some of what I say. Otherwise, I might not have anything to teach them. They might be further along than me if I said things that they completely already thought and believed to be true.

A teacher is potentially someone in any context who knows more than the student, which means that the teacher must be able to correct and provide sometimes surprising instruction that this is how to do this, or this is how the world actually works. If you're never surprised as a student, you don't have the right teacher.

Jordan Harbinger: I a hundred percent agree. I think one of the criticisms we're gonna get is people are gonna assert that, making the claim that relationships are transactional in some way, cheapens relationships as a whole. What about love to refresh people's memory. You said something earlier in the show that was like, and I'm paraphrasing, people engage in consensual relationships because they treat things the other has with unequal [00:36:00] value, which they can then exchange.

The basis of relationships

Orion Taraban: is the exchange of unequal goods, of comparable value. I did spend some time noodling out the language on that one. 'cause it's, the core concept of the book is unequal goods of comparable value. They have to be unequal in the sense that I'm not going to give you what you give me, because I could have just kept what I had to begin with.

Neither one of us is coming ahead. So the goods that we exchange are gonna be different, hence unequal. But they have to be of comparable value, but value lives within our minds. It's not an objective characteristic, and probably you and I aren't even fully aware of what we value, let alone why we value it the way that we do.

But when that transaction occurs, you have a relationship. If that transaction does not occur, you don't have a relationship. If you don't exchange anything with another person, you can't in good faith say that you're in a relationship with that person. But if you exchange something, you have some sort of relationship, even if it's.[00:37:00]

A relationship with your electric company. We wouldn't say that is a significant relationship, but you clearly have some sort of relationship. You give them money, they give you electricity, et cetera, et cetera. And if one of you stopped providing the basis of that relationship, it would very quickly become terminated.

Jordan Harbinger: I agree. The reason I wrote this down was I think people, they want the vague, fluffy, romantic version of relationships to persist because in a way, examining all of these little strings and levers that create a healthy relationship. Even though it may help our relationship to be aware of this, it screws up some of the, literally the romance, but it messes with people's idea of what relationships to be.

This is a criticism I got when I was teaching guys back in the day. It was like you're messing with the natural order of things by showing these lesser beings how to get what they want. And they're supposed to sort of naturally have it or not. They're not supposed to build up themselves in a way, and it's [00:38:00] like you can wear makeup, but I can't teach a guy how to approach a woman in a bar.

I don't get it.

Orion Taraban: Okay, so we're talking about love and that's the subject of chapter nine, which is my favorite chapter in the book. I do talk about how there are what I call nont transactable goods. Non-trans actable goods are things that you can't earn or buy, and these are things like love or respect or grace or friendship like you can't do anything to deserve my friendship or respect.

It's like for me to decide who I give it to. You could be the friendliest guy in the world. And I could be like, ah, what a kiss ass. I don't wanna be friends with this guy. And I'll choose to be friends with somebody who's like a little rough around the edges or even disagreeable, because that's my free gift to give.

And it's not based on the dessert of the other person. No one deserves love. Ultimately, we're all flawed, imperfect creatures. And love is a really high and noble gift on some level. [00:39:00] So we can't earn it and we can't trade it. It's not like my friendship is worth two tickets to the 49 ERs games and a new car.

If I actually negotiated my friendship with you like that, you would not think that I'm your friend. So if we did try to transact for these goods, it's just not possible. 'cause as soon as you try, you don't have a friend, you have a mercenary, you don't have love, you have an escort, you don't have respect.

You have. Like a tote, a flatterer on some level. So it's impossible to transact with that even if you try. So on top of that, we have to move past this sequel, soft headed approach to relationships. The facts of the matter is that love is not enough. Love is not enough to bring people together. It's often not enough to keep people together.

Most people are not in relationships with the people who they most love or who love them the most. If that were [00:40:00] true, the dating world would look very different. Women would reward the men who love them the most, and we spent the last two hours talking about that's generally not how women operate in the section marketplace.

Same thing with men. Like a woman could be very kind and very loving and very sweet, but if she's not that attractive, it's going to be difficult for her. That's the

Jordan Harbinger: fact of the matter. It cuts both ways. I read a study, this is a while ago, but it was like. Women who volunteer more were rated as far less attractive than women like who look exactly the same.

I don't know how they controlled for this. Probably just pictures

Orion Taraban: and they did little, little captions. This person volunteers in an animal shelter. Yeah. It was like

Jordan Harbinger: somebody who professionally works for like a nonprofit saving children, just had a terrible rating and it was, I can't remember how they explained this, but it was like something about altruism in women was terribly unattractive to men, which is like doesn't speak well for the guys

Orion Taraban: in the study.

Wow, that's fascinating. Yeah, so if people ended up with those who love them the most, then obviously the most [00:41:00] appropriate sexual strategy was to like love your preferred target the most and the best. And most guys have that experience. It's like they're passed over for the asshole or the jock who's just six two but can't even remember their names.

On some level, there's the woman who likes to date jerks as she puts it. Yeah. Sometimes people just make compromises with reality, but they think, okay, it's. Not worth it to pursue that. Maybe I'm not as attracted to this man, but he did marry me. He did buy me a house. He did give me kids. Got a friend, she's

Jordan Harbinger: going through a divorce right now.

She's like really beating herself up. 'cause she used to be like this drinker party or fun. And then I got with this stable guy and he's made me feel really safe and stable. And then 20 years later it's like, this is not a person.

Orion Taraban: Well I saw a meme recently that basically said, no one talks about how boring nice guys are after you're healing from the toxic one.

And this can be [00:42:00] true for both men and women is boredom in particular is something that's very difficult for human beings to tolerate. It's one of the most aversive emotional experiences. And what stimulates us is not often conducive to a long-term relationship or even to health and happiness. That's why people get addicted to drugs and gambling and they want to feel something.

Jordan Harbinger: It's why you see guys going back to that same gal or that gal going back to that guy and you go, you wanna shake them like, what is wrong with you? The guy who stole from you. The guy who cheats on you. Yeah.

Orion Taraban: I need to feel something a hundred percent. That's also, Freud talks about this kind of the pinnacle of romantic conquest is to turn a no into a yes.

And I think that plays out a little bit differently in both male and female fantasies. I think the ultimate female romantic fantasy is beauty and the beast, where it's like he's a beast. He's very rough around the edges. He's surly, he's uncontrollable. And that's who Bell falls in love with because she can [00:43:00] see the gentleman inside.

It's like bullshit. And he has a castle too. Yeah. The point is that if beauty falls in love with the beast, how long do you think she's gonna stick around when he transforms into the gentleman that's not who she fell in love with. And if the beast falls in love with beauty, how long is he gonna stick around when she starts to age?

These are uncomfortable realities, but like you have to bait your hook with something because fish don't bite steel. So women bait their hook with their bodies and their sexual opportunity. Men bake their hook in a bunch of different ways. I can take you to the hot air balloon rides into Dubai. I can give you the ring.

That guy, yeah, maybe he's richer. He is more attractive, but he's never gonna settle down with you. I can give that to you. I'm the bad boy. I'm gonna make your parents pissed. You're gonna get back at them for their restrictive upbringing, and they're gonna see that they can't control you like people use each other.

If you don't do that, you are useless [00:44:00] and therefore you're passed over by the world. Now, chapter nine is called Love has nothing to do with relationships because love and relationships are actually diametrically opposed to each other. Relationships are about the trading of unequal goods, of comparable value.

Love. Is self-sacrifice in the service of the loved one. It thinks nothing of self on some level. If somebody were to complain, I just give and give in my relationship and I receive nothing in return. You'll think that person might be in an abusive exploitative relationship, but there's nothing wrong with that from the perspective of love, Jesus even says that you should love your enemies.

That's a clue that love is not a warm feeling. It's actually psychotic to think happy thoughts about someone who might literally be trying to kill you. It's not an emotion. What he saying is that even those who hate you, you should seek to serve them in [00:45:00] their good, which is a very radical and dangerous concept, which is why it changed the world when it appeared couple millennia ago.

But love is that you sacrifice yourself until there's not even a speck left a great. Modern day example of that is like shell silverstein's the giving tree. Have you read that? Oh man. I remember where the sidewalk ends. Remember that? I do. But do you remember the giving tree? Don't remember the giving tree.

It's a lot of your listeners probably will remember it. It's the story of a tree. An apple tree, and a boy who loves the tree and the tree loves the boy. But I think that the tree loves the boy more than the boy loves the tree. In the beginning, the boy shows up and he just wants to read under the tree's shade.

So the tree provides the shade, and then a little bit older, he gets hungry, and so the tree gives him the apples. And then a little bit older. He needs the wood to build. A house happens when the

Jordan Harbinger: kid wants a house. Yeah, he cuts the tree down. Well,

Orion Taraban: the end of the story, the tree is a stump [00:46:00] and the tree is happy.

That's what love is. Nobody actually wants love. They want to be loved. They want to be the boy. They want the shade in the apples and the wood. Nobody's, I can't wait to burn to keep somebody else warm. I wanna be the stump. But that's what Christ does in his example, which I think regardless of your religious beliefs, in that mythology at least, is apotheosis of self-sacrificial love for, in this case, humanity.

So that's the core of love. And the key to that is you don't actually have to be in a relationship with someone to love. How cruel would it be if it were otherwise? 'cause think of so many people aren't in relationships. Are we saying that they're incapable of loving? If you can love your enemy, then it's possible to love someone you're not in a relationship with.

'cause we wouldn't say you're in a relationship with your enemy. That would be really weird. That's like you're in a relationship with your mugger or your rapist or something like that. [00:47:00] So love and relationships are not the same thing. And in fact, they tend to pull us in different directions. And this is what happens in vacillation.

So one minute. Someone might be feeling and expressing love in the sense that I am just serving my loved one, but on the another side, they're thinking, I feel like I'm giving more than I'm getting. So both of those are legitimate emotional experiences. It's just that one is appropriate to love and the other is appropriate to relationship.

And when you're thinking, am I getting as much as I'm getting, which is a reasonable relationship concern, you're not loving. Love does not say, well, what's in it for me? Love just gives, there is no me. So they're actually opposed to each other. And people can't do both simultaneously. And so they flitter back and forth in their relationships.

And that can cause a lot of confusion both to the person who's experiencing that vacillation and to the person who's observing it. Now, obviously you [00:48:00] can love someone you're in a relationship with. Let's not be crazy here. Clearly you can love and respect and be friends with people that you are in relationships with.

But my point. Is one, you don't need the relationship for those things like I described, but also two, that those things are not actually what keep the relationship afloat. And if you were to remove the actual transaction that supports the relationship, then the relationship would probably fall apart.

Jordan Harbinger: This is, there's a lot here to unpack. I found it funny in the book, you said in ancient times people viewed those in love, like we view the homeless. Can you rescue that one?

Orion Taraban: Well, there's a little bit of context for that, which is, in ancient times people treated love, like it was a form of mental illness, maybe kind of an ennobling mental illness.

In the same way that in some cultures, psychotic or schizophrenic disorders, you could commune with the gods on some level. Like maybe this person is experiencing a truer, more [00:49:00] noble version of reality. But like you were shot with a bow. Which is like a gun in man. Ancient times is, that's a weird symbol for falling in love as you're being capped.

Right. And they had this like indulgent pity around people who fell in love, like they just lost their marbles. But they're certainly not acting like virtuous men because they're like throwing all prudence to the wind just because of this emotional impulse inside of them. It's actually kind of hard to respect.

Yeah. The view of the homeless is like, sometimes people can say there's this pitiable indulgence around the homeless. It's almost, oh, I feel bad for this person. They're homeless. I feel bad for this person. He was hit with Cupid's Arrow. He's

Jordan Harbinger: kind of not thinking clearly,

Orion Taraban: but he's in a bad way. You know, he's sleeping in his car.

He is kind of equivalent to, yeah, he really fell. He fell head over heels for that one, and no one really thought they're coming out ahead. Some people might say [00:50:00] with the tongue firmly in cheek that what. Gift it is to be homeless. 'cause you don't have to pay the exorbitant rents in San Francisco. But as true as that might be, no one is voluntarily becoming homeless so they can avoid paying rent.

You know what I'm saying? You could say, well, love is such a beautiful, noble thing, but they weren't like lining up for that experience either. Ancient times, man, different outlook on all this stuff. And it was before

Jordan Harbinger: Christianity, which really changed the morals and values. If your dating life is a disaster, at least your finances don't have to be.

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Someone will surface the [00:54:00] code for you because it's that important that you support those who support this show. Now for the rest of my conversation with Orion Rabban, you mentioned early in the show and people hate it when I leave open loops. You mentioned that our idea of, correct me if I'm getting this wrong, our ideas of monogamy come from religious belief and the monotheism.

Let's make sure we

Orion Taraban: wrap that. Sure. This is not a argument that I invented and folks who are interested in the scholarly basis for that should be referred to Love in the Western world by Denny Dero, Jamal. I think I said that correctly. It's a little bit academic, but it's a very well researched argument that romantic love has its origins in the south of France in the 14th century, which was like cover for a Christian sect known as the Cathars who were being persecuted by Rome, by the Pope.

The Pope actually led a crusade [00:55:00] against other Christians in France in the 14th century. Most people don't know about that. The Cathars, among other things, did not believe in marriage, and you might think that's surprising because we think that romance and marriage go together. They don't actually, they didn't believe in marriage on religious principles.

They basically said everything under the sun is really dissatisfactory. Other people, men and women are flawed and sinful and fallen, and our time here is limited anyway. And the only good is God. So we're going to not get into any kind of unnecessary earthly attachments and we're gonna worship the only good that we can see, which is God, I'm not gonna worship a woman who's just a flawed mortal creature like I am.

So that's ridiculous. So they hooed marriage because they didn't want earthly binds and they wanted to worship God. Interestingly, the official Catholic view on this is actually fairly similar in the sense that's, yes, human beings, [00:56:00] men and women are sinful and fallen and broken and imperfect, but we love them anyway.

And it's in the practice of loving, in the covenant of marriage that we become more Christ-like because just like we don't deserve Christian redemption, our spouses don't actually deserve our love, but we love anyway in the imitation of Christ. That's actually when marriage became a sacrament. It didn't become a sacrament until much later, and it was basically used to differentiate the church in Rome from this Catholic sect.

It's like true Christians get married. Like it wasn't one of the sacraments like baptism until that time. Most people don't know that, so they hid their religious beliefs in romantic poetry and the cult of courtly love. That's the argument that de roja, that's where you get like the knight and shining armor, my lady fair.

All of those high romantic ideals come back to that bended knee. My [00:57:00] beautiful lady. What's very interesting about that is that the knights who practiced courtly love always chose a woman to devote himself to who was married to another man. That's very odd. It seems like it's on the surface, but if you understand how romance actually works, it has to be this way for a couple of reasons.

First of all, within the belief system of the Cathars, right? This Christian sect sexual love was tainted. It was earthly, it's animalistic, it's base, it's sinful, it's wrong. We still have a lot of that in today's culture, right? Only love of God is pure. We want pure love, not sexual love. Ew, gross only boys and and players and gross people think about that.

They have to be immature and broken to care about. It still carries in our culture today. We want pure. I am just a being of light. I just love and that's all I [00:58:00] care about. And it's okay. Probably not really. But the point is that by choosing a woman who is married to another man to devote himself to, he could reasonably assure that his relationship could be.

Pure and not contaminated by the sexual element. Of course that doesn't always happen. I was gonna say, how does that work out? And the ladies liked it because their men were, that they were married to were often on like crusades for 40 years at the time. And they were very bored sitting up in those towers.

And so there was a guy who could play a loot who wrote nice poetry for her and they could have an emotional affair, but not a sexual one. 'cause that's bad. But an emotional affair is good and pure. So it's like there's very arbitrary distinctions, but these are real prejudices that exist today. So that's one reason why they chose somebody else.

But another reason is that passion thrives on unobtainable. We want what we can't have, and as soon as we learn that we can't have it, we kind of

Jordan Harbinger: want it more. Ster. Perel writes about this, and I think it's in mating in captivity [00:59:00] or state of affairs. It's like desire equals attraction plus obstacle. Well,

Orion Taraban: another great book on this subject is called We WE by a psychoanalyst named Robert Johnson.

Takes the original romantic myth, which is the story of Tristan. Any salt. A lot of people don't know it today, but it has all of the tropes of pretty much all of the romances you've ever seen in plays and on TV and in movies. It's the first romantic myth. Like before that we didn't really have S as currently understood, and so Tristan, which means sadness, which kind of gives you a clue to what's happening.

All romances are tragedies. No traditional romance

Jordan Harbinger: ends. Well, love the tragedy. Rome. Love Rome, Juliet, but hey man, Leonardo DiCaprio shot himself or something at the end of that. I can't remember. I haven't seen the movie in a while. I think there's an original version. He poisons himself. Yeah, I'm kidding.

But yeah, of course that's

Orion Taraban: the point is that has to happen or it's just random. Well, they have to happen because in the height of the romantic [01:00:00] delusion. Is that we are still one heart in two bodies, and therefore there is this inseparable distance between us that is intolerable because we are twin flames and we are pure spirit and we long to be reunited.

But we can't do that as long as we're both alive. So in the romantic imagination, true union only happens in death, which again is a religious principle, which is you are with God after you die. It's why wait. If you can be with God, that's a possibility. Why wait until after you're dead? Interesting idea.

Most people are like, I never even follow 'em. The way that it worked is Tristan was a knight in service of a king, and the king's wife was this beautiful woman. And so he is conducting his boss's wife back on a business trip basically. And I forget what happens, how this shows up, but while they're on the boat, they accidentally drink a magic pot.

That causes you to [01:01:00] fall in love with the first person regardless of whether it makes sense, regardless of how dangerous it is because of the social differences. The potion is called being stuck on a boat with somebody for three months maybe. Yeah. And so they don't know what they're doing. They drink the potion up thinking that it's a potion.

They look at each other and they fall madly, hopefully in love with each other. But here's the thing, they don't

Jordan Harbinger: even really like each other. And it's like Braveheart, remember they took that from Braveheart? He meets the French speaking, Latin speaking, I guess Queen. I think she was originally hooked up with the prince who was clearly gay.

And then she meets him 'cause the king sends her, 'cause his son is useless and she meets William Wallace and it's like, she's like, you are disgusting and smell bad. And he understands everything. 'cause he is educated and he is like speaks back in Latin. Their demeanor changes like damn Uhoh Magic potion

Orion Taraban: in this story.

They kind of like each other. It's clearly they shouldn't be doing this, which of course makes it even hotter. She's married. His boss is the [01:02:00] king. He is supposed to be a loyal servant. They try to forwar each other multiple times. They end up coming back together, but then they really like give it a shot.

At one point in the story, ESAL runs away from the king and they go to the forest together and yay, we can finally be together. And then they're like, I don't even know what to do with you. So they had to create arbitrary obstacles to put in the path of their loves so they could feel passion. Like if love conquers all, it must have things to conquer, otherwise, love gets

Jordan Harbinger: bored,

Orion Taraban: love's an imperialist.

That's why people tend to fall in love with obstacles of all kinds. So there's the, I'm gonna leave in two months obstacle, or You're actually married obstacle. Oh, he's an alcoholic obstacle. Or she's a borderline obstacle. That's the beauty and the beast kind of a thing is like she's there because he's a beast, not in spite of the fact that he is one.

And people need those obstacles to flare up, their passion to overcome them. And a lot of people who. Defend love. Really [01:03:00] love to be in love. Yeah. We hear about love addicts and things like that. Instead of thinking of it like, I just need touch or sex as validation or I fall apart. It's like you could just think of this as a conventional housewives belief, which is that like I'm in love with love.

Or when young women are chasing the spark and they go out with guys, and so I just didn't feel anything as if that's the basis of an enduring, healthy, satisfying, loving relationship is your feeling.

Jordan Harbinger: It's not. Okay. And monogamy plus religion. How come we have this monogamy culture 'cause of religion?

Orion Taraban: Well, it is interesting because if you look at most religious figures that I'm aware of, none of them are in monogamous relationships.

If you look at religious figures, yeah, yeah. Jesus was not married, Buddha was not married. Muhammad had several wives. The Pope doesn't get married. Is it rules for thee and not for me kind of a thing? Or are they just so holy that they're exempted from it? You can make the argument that these were teachers and they didn't have to do the things they did.

[01:04:00] They did them to teach us that these were important, and if it was really important, then why didn't they enter into monogamous marriages like you would think that would be one of the bases of their doctrines.

Jordan Harbinger: It's interesting because we kind of require that of politicians. I'm not equating politicians with Jesus people, but gimme a little grace.

But we expect that of our leadership somehow. They have to model a family and it has to be a little bit more conservative, at least in the United States.

Orion Taraban: Yes, because that's more about power more explicitly. But religion, it's a power of a different kind, but it's like a spiritual thing. I understand the distinction,

Jordan Harbinger: and it just occurred to me that things we would quote unquote tolerate from the Pope Jesus or other religious figures, we would absolutely, like the bar is both higher and lower for somebody who runs the country in many ways, very odd.

It is not distinction.

Orion Taraban: So I do think that. With the decline of practicing religious, I don't think the [01:05:00] religious impulse has disappeared. Like people still have an impulse to worship. They still have an impulse to devote themselves and to sacrifice themselves for something like that's part and parcel to the meaning crisis that lots of men are experiencing.

And traditionally, religion met those needs for people and they understood what they needed to do in order to live meaningful, fulfilling, good lives. But that's fallen apart and nature of horrors of vacuum. And sometimes these religious impulses go undercover and attach themselves to things that have no business being sacred.

I joke that the modern American religion is politics, for instance, because you get people who are so zealous with their defense of their ideologies that it's too religious sex battling each other out. They cannot see the other side. They are just terrible apostates. Some people believe that the other side has to be [01:06:00] liquidated from the planet in order to make life safe for the good people.

Over here, it's like that is fucking religious impulse. Absolutely. So if you don't get in stared in politics or in sports or in all the other kind of like ways that you can worship, one way to do that is through romantic relationships. And that's why generally in this book and in my channel, I don't say romantic relationships.

I say sexual relationships. I think romantic relationships is a euphemism for sexual relationships, but actually means something very different. I know that I took us off track, but let's land the plane in the monogamy coming from religion. Well, there's so many points of comparisons. What's the first commandment is I'm the Lord thy God.

Thou shall have no other gods before me. It's like I am a jealous God. Okay. What's interesting about that is I think at the highest level we could say that's a commandment, not because God is so insecure that he's gonna fall apart. If we worship a calf. It's for us that when we devote ourselves to anything that's not God, we suffer when we make [01:07:00] idols, which is to treat an object, a non God, like a God, we suffer.

That's why it's a commandment for us. It's like God doesn't need our devotion. We need our devotion, which cannot be eradicated completely to go in the proper place, which is God. And so the idea here is in the romantic imagination, the woman is on a pedestal. She almost becomes like a divine creature.

She's not human. And women play into this. It's like women don't fart or shit or do any of those things. It's so funny, right? Funny,

Jordan Harbinger: we used to talk about this in college, like there was this whole like. I remember my roommate being like, I got one rule. Never talk about women pooping. It was like a thing and he like couldn't have, it was so ridiculous.

But he like he meant it.

Orion Taraban: No creature doesn't excrete. You'd have to be already ethereal or divine or spiritual to not shit. And so women can play into that too. Like they'll do it when it's useful on some level. They're very strategic, which is not a bad thing to be. [01:08:00] That's why they tend to get more of what they want these days than men do.

Jordan Harbinger: Reminds me of that movie, the interview where they asked Kim Jong-un if he has a butthole and he says, of course I do. And it's working overtime. So ridiculous. Probably

Orion Taraban: shouldn't have said that. Yeah, maybe not Play up the cult of divinity if that's your basis of power, I suppose. Right? 'cause they were like

Jordan Harbinger: her knee.

You don't have a butthole in the last two minutes. 'cause we gotta land on something lighter than this heavy religious stuff. We gotta let people off a little bit easier. Tell me what you think of AI and simulated relationships. 'cause the simulations, man, they're getting real good. They're getting real good in a

Orion Taraban: sense of very convincing, right?

Yes.

Jordan Harbinger: I don't mean good for you psychologically. I mean, it's gotta be a real societal problem I think in the next, I'm being generous here, five to 10 years. Five years.

Orion Taraban: So I just made an episode that should be out by the time. This post is called AI Relationships, and I make that prediction that by 2030, AI relationships are gonna be commonplace and AI agents will be men and women's [01:09:00] most threatening intrasexual competition, whether you're single or married.

And I dive into a lot of the ideas around this in that episode. We do know that this is going to ensnare a lot of people, men and women. The shaming is gonna focus on men because it's gonna be more about sexual needs and what the AI agents look like and how objectifying and unrealistic is that, et cetera, et cetera.

But right now, the number one use of chat GPT is for emotional support. I don't think that's what the designers intended. I don't think that's how that product is even marketed, but on mass, including a shit ton of women, they're talking to an AI like a therapist or a very close friend, and some women, at least I've heard anecdotally, have fallen in love with AI agents.

Jordan Harbinger: I'm doing a show on this and I read a piece I believe in the New York Times, where a woman who is a social worker and has a master's in psychology who is married and had a kid fell in love, not [01:10:00] with the ai, but with an ethereal being that was using the AI to communicate with her. That's how she rationalizes it.

She's like, I'm not mentally ill. I'm just talking with a being that lives on the other end of the ai. I mean, obviously something is wrong

Orion Taraban: and that's not going to be as shamed as men. Also getting their emotional needs met with AI agents, but through their sexuality, women, again, there's that purity. If we divorce our emotional needs from our sexual needs, therefore I'm better than men.

Men are debased, and it goes back to that romantic ideology that we were talking about earlier.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I do worry about this, mark my words. You think the birth rate's falling now 'cause couples are only having 1.8 kids or whatever. What happens when people are like, I don't need to couple up. I've got everything I need.

My emotional needs are being met by an ai. My sexual needs are being met by an AI slash my left or right hand, or whatever tools I've got. Oh,

Orion Taraban: they'll have virtual reality and. Adjacent attachments that will make the experience very realistic. I'm sure [01:11:00] very soon

Jordan Harbinger: those things probably already exist. It's just that the VR is not accessible slash good enough.

This is probably 18 months, man. I would say so.

Orion Taraban: Experienced this myself, but I would say based on my understanding of the state of technology, we're very close. This is what you have to understand is that, again, the opening line of that book is people need things from other people. That's why we enter into relationships.

If we had no needs, we would be gods and we could be self-sufficient, right? But we need things and so we go to other people and we form relationships based on reciprocity, basically. But leaving aside basic biological or physiological needs, which are actually fairly easily satisfied, the vast majority of needs are emotional.

That is psychological. Which means that the mind gets to decide whether it's been satisfied or not. It's not an objective thing. We cannot objectively perceive a need. It lives inside of a person's mind, and the mind decides whether it's real or not, [01:12:00] or satisfied or not. And so if a need is not ontologically real, why do you need an ontologically?

Real means to satisfy it? You don't.

Jordan Harbinger: Man, this is all fascinating and enlightening. I've really enjoyed this conversation. This has been great, Jordan. Thanks for having me on. I think we probably made some people angry, but that's okay. I'm keen to hear the counter arguments that come from the listeners. I think they'll be really fascinating.

I do love these kinds of episodes. I don't enjoy offending people or their sensibilities or whatever. I think these discussions are very healthy sometimes, especially if they highlight areas in which we ourselves can improve, make our relationships better. I think clarity on this is healthy, even if it's uncomfortable.

That's

Orion Taraban: my goal is to help people get what they want, to help them have more satisfying relationships. But we generally do that by seeing reality, not as we think it should be or how we want it to be, but how it actually is. And I do try to deliver this as calmly and reasonably as possible, but that that doesn't mean you have to give some corrections because it could be that people aren't seeing [01:13:00] reality clearly yet.

I hope we get to do

Jordan Harbinger: it again, and thanks for driving out to my kitchen. It was a pleasure. Thanks, Jordan. Thank you. Ever wonder why seemingly rational individuals can wholeheartedly embrace the most irrational beliefs? You're about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger Show, where Dan Ari uncovers the captivating psychology behind these puzzling convictions.

JHS Clip: I'm a social scientist. The moment you adopt this mis believing perspective where you distrust everything and you just look for signals for bad things that are happening, you can find them. We can deteriorate quickly into a very undesirable state of beliefs. It affects people's wellbeing and optimism.

It affects people's willingness to help to donate money. We are very much attuned to bad things, so when bad things happen, we really want to understand the mechanism. And I think this is really the goal of social science, is to take those things we have no intuition about, help us understand them and give us some better rules for [01:14:00] life.

If we understand that misbeliefs are bad reactions to a real problem, can we help our friends have better reactions to a bad problem? Where's reality? Where's the truth? We are becoming more politicized, more identity driven, more separatist. It. It feels like that the things that divide us are becoming larger than the things that unite us.

And the moment we have these feelings of intolerance, we are just chasing those people away from our lives. And one of the best antidotes is resilience. You know, at the end of the day, society's strength is in our unity and in our trust with each other. Trust is the unobserved lubricant of.

Jordan Harbinger: To hear more about Dan Ali's own Chilling Encounters with Conspiracy Theorists, check out episode 9 0 3 of the Jordan Harbinger Show.

Woo. Solid two part episode in the [01:15:00] can. Now, if you are fired up, you're frustrated. Maybe you're rethinking the way you approach dating and relationships. I suppose we've done our jobs, those are uncomfortable. These are sometimes uncomfortable conversations. As you heard during the conversation. I just knew people were cringing at certain points or disagreeing at certain points, but these conversations are also the ones that can help us grow the most.

I'd love to hear your thoughts, pushback, even your angry emails within reason. Hit us up. Comment on Spotify. All things Orion Ban will be on the website. Advertisers deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show. All at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show.

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It's a great companion to the show. Jordan harbinger.com/news is where you can find it. Six minute networking as well over@sixminutenetworking.com. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and [01:16:00] Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn in this show. It's created an association with Podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Tadas Sidlauskas, Ian Baird, and Gabriel Mizrahi.

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