1260: Vaping | Skeptical Sunday

1260: Vaping | Skeptical Sunday

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Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to Skeptical Sunday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. Today I'm here with Skeptical Sunday co-host, writer and researcher Jessica Wynn on The Jordan Harbinger Show, where we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

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Today we're talking about vaping. You've seen the clouds. Maybe you've walked through one outside a concert and thought, Hmm, cotton candy. Gas stations sell devices with flavors that sound like they came straight outta Willy Wonka. So are vapes, a sleek, healthier alternative to cigarettes, a cool way to quit smoking, or just bubblegum flavored cancer bombs.

To help clear the air, we've got writer and researcher, Jessica Wynn. Hey, Jess.

Jessica Wynn: Hey, Jordan. I'm excited to ruin a few vape clouds for people.

Jordan Harbinger: Perfect. Okay, so first things first, full disclosure. Have you ever smoked or vaped.

Jessica Wynn: I have never vaped and technically I smoked two cigarettes in my teens, but both [00:02:00] times I was on LSD, so I don't think that counts.

Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: If you did it in the fourth dimension, did it really happen? Yeah. That's not smoking. I don't know what that is.

Jessica Wynn: I think it was a good time, but let's just blow past that. I did grow up surrounded by smokers though. My parents, relatives, neighbors, and they smoked. Inside Ew, which was common in the eighties.

Ashtrays on the nightstands kind of house. It was like living inside of Philip Morris commercial. When I was a little kid, I took a nap on my parents' bed. My hand went in the ashtray and then that ashy hand went in my mouth and ugh, I can taste it as I'm telling you this. And it just turned me off for life.

Jordan Harbinger: I don't think you were raised right. That's horrifying. I can only imagine the smell in there of all the smoking indoors. Oh

Jessica Wynn: God. Uh, I absolutely was not raised right, but it worked in my favor. As far as smoking goes. I got what we call negative conditioning.

Jordan Harbinger: So your anti-smoking device was literally [00:03:00] an ashtray.

Next year bed. That is dark.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah. And thank God though, because I had every reason to be hooked. Were you ever a smoker or vaper?

Jordan Harbinger: So vaping stuff before people knew it was bad for you? Like, I mean, I'm talking like 2009. I remember somebody sent me a USB chargeable cigarette thing and they were like, there's no nicotine in here.

And I was like, oh, okay. That's the harmful stuff, so I'll just try this. And I used it kind of like in electric hookah. But then I realized that it was just keeping it in my mouth one day and I was like, I basically, throughout the day I was like using this and I was like, this is gross. Like, who knows what this is, is it's probably oil in here and stuff.

I just, I don't want it, so I got rid of it. And smoking. Smoking was one of those things where like when I was in Europe and I was three sheets to the wind or something and, and all the Serbians got out their cigarettes, which is, you know, at 8:00 AM social smoke. Yeah. I was just like, I'll do it too. And then I remember being like, this stinks.

And my wife was like, Hey, don't ever do that again. I was like, yeah. 'cause I, yeah, I just did it when I was drinking [00:04:00] and I basically stopped smoking and drinking. Which by the way, uh, highly recommend not drinking or smoking. They're both bad for you. Spoiler alert.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah, I mean, it's kind of a miracle. I never picked it up.

I mean, I remember before cigarettes were banned in restaurants and I worked in a restaurant. Part of the side work was cleaning the ashtrays, and we would just throw them in the same dishwasher as the dishes. No, I think back on that, I'm like, that is disgusting. Is

Jordan Harbinger: that legal? That's really gross. I feel like that's illegal.

That's gotta be, I don't

Jessica Wynn: know. This was Philadelphia. There's no laws there, right? I

Jordan Harbinger: don't know. Geez.

Jessica Wynn: I mean, as for vaping, that came after my time. I tried a weed pen once or twice and I hated it. It burned. I coughed my lungs, felt raw. No thanks.

Jordan Harbinger: So you got lucky with the cigs, but humans, we've always smoked something, right?

It's an ancient practice. The old peace pipe.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah. Humanity has always been inhaling something. Cigarettes. Cigars. Hookah pipes. They've been around [00:05:00] forever.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Cavemen. Were probably rolling leaves and lighten those up too.

Jessica Wynn: They really were. Anthropologists have found smoking rituals across cultures for thousands of years.

Tobacco, cannabis, all kinds of various herbs. It was social bonding like you and the Serbians. It was,

Jordan Harbinger (2): yeah,

Jessica Wynn: ritual, it was medicine. Humans love, fire, and smoke. It's just hardwired,

Jordan Harbinger: right? It's kind of unfair. Instead of addressing that urge, society just wags its finger at kids and says, don't do it. It's bad, and then makes it just readily available everywhere.

Knowing that we're kind of built. To inhale stuff.

Jessica Wynn: I know and industries know it. They've been exploiting that urge for centuries with tobacco and weed. Then just as smoking rates were declining. Suddenly this shiny new device shows up that looks like a USB stick and smells like a Jolly Rancher,

Jordan Harbinger: but vaping, it seemed like a miracle at first.

It was marketed as less harmful than cigarettes. Right. Which makes sense. Since [00:06:00] there's no combustion, there's no ashes, so like maybe it's not as bad.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah. I mean, that's one of the biggest myths about vaping is that it's harmless. It's become a global issue. Countries are scrambling to regulate it, and companies stay a step ahead of regulations.

Some places are cracking down hard, though Singapore just tightened restrictions on vapes. They're completely banned. And as of September, 2025. Fines have increased, and if you're a foreigner caught vaping there, you will most likely be deported.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Deported for vaping. That is, yeah.

Jessica Wynn: Are cigarettes banned there?

That is a great question. I know bubblegum is, and. Dorian fruit is banned on the subways. They're so strict in that society,

Jordan Harbinger: so I just looked this up. Cigarettes are not completely abandoned in Singapore, but their sailing use are heavily restricted. Smoking is prohibited in most public places, including indoor public spaces, most [00:07:00] outdoor areas like parks and beaches, and within five meters of building entrances except in designated smoking areas, and the age is 21 and over.

It's weird that they're like, no vapes. But smoking. Okay. And I think maybe I would love to get in their heads on this. I bet it has to do with how it's marketed to kids, but we'll get there soon.

Jessica Wynn: That's what I was gonna say. Yeah. It's just a whole new world with vapes and here in the US states are making their own moves.

Texas just passed SB 2024, which requires retail permits for vape sales sets, packaging restrictions, and bans, vaping near all schools, which is kind of crazy that. If they needed to pass a bill that that wasn't already being enforced,

Jordan Harbinger: but Right. Oh, Texas, the state that'll let you bring a gun to brunch, but no vapes.

Yeah,

Jessica Wynn: pretty much. And it shows how disruptive vaping has become, not just here but worldwide.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, but here's the thing, people really do believe it's harmless. Like I hear claims like it stops you from smoking cigarettes [00:08:00] or it's just water vapor.

Jessica Wynn: Which is completely false. It's not vapor, you guys, it's aerosol.

It's like a chemical soup. That's an important distinction. Vapor is just gas, like steam from a kettle. Aerosol means droplets of chemicals suspended in the air, stuff your lungs cannot filter.

Jordan Harbinger: So what's actually in those vape clouds?

Jessica Wynn: Well, a vape cloud contains all kinds of ultra fine particles and chemicals.

Studies show most aerosols contain nicotine heavy metals like lead and nickel carbon oils like formaldehyde, metal particles from the heating coils and flavoring chemicals. It's not harmless steam. It's a mix of substances that get inhaled deep into your lungs. Wait, formaldehyde, that's ugh. Yes,

Jordan Harbinger: gross.

That's the stuff they preserve. They're like frogs in there. In high school biology.

Jessica Wynn: I know. I know. And that's just one of the chemicals [00:09:00] in vapes. So

Jordan Harbinger: yeah,

Jessica Wynn: we're also talking propylene glycol, vegetable glycerin, nickel lead, volatile organic compounds like diacetyl. The flavorings are another problem. You know, vapes are like the contents of a Home Depot aisle turned into a smoothie

Jordan Harbinger: that is gross

Jessica Wynn: know.

Very, very, and the regulation is so lax that many vapes labeled, quote unquote, nicotine free are found to actually contain nicotine when tested.

Jordan Harbinger: So it sounds like cigarettes. We know cigarettes are addictive. Why does vaping feel different?

Jessica Wynn: Well, that's where nicotine salts come in. The company Juul, I think most people are familiar with.

Yeah. They pioneered using nicotine salts instead of freebase nicotine.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. That sounds intense. What's the difference there?

Jessica Wynn: Yeah, they're scary names. Uh, freebase nicotine is a natural form of nicotine that's extracted from tobacco leaves [00:10:00] providing really high nicotine levels. Then salt nicotine is the synthetic form of nicotine created by combining that free base nicotine with benzoic acid or lactic acid.

This lowers the pH level, which makes it less harsh to inhale at higher concentrations, so you cough less, which means a faster, smoother hit to the brain.

Jordan Harbinger: Damn. So Juul hacked nicotine.

Jessica Wynn: Yep. Basically. A single Juul pod is about 200 puffs of a cigarette, which is like a pack of cigarettes.

Jordan Harbinger: And it's way easier to take 200 puffs off a vape than suck down 20 cigarettes.

Jessica Wynn: Right. And that's why addiction happens so quickly. So some kids report feeling hooked after just a few hours of trying it. Oh my God. And most adults who vape don't even quit smoking. They just do both. Oh, that can't be good. No, no. It's called dual use. And you see smokers who vape at work or [00:11:00] indoors where cigarettes aren't allowed, then smoke a cigarette.

As soon as they're somewhere they can. The supposed benefit of harm reduction just gets canceled out. You know, if there was any in the first place,

Jordan Harbinger: it's like cutting back on tequila by drinking vodka sodas and the, I mean, I see people vaping indoors all the time, concerts, bars. Public transit. That's the most annoying thing.

'cause I'm like, dude, I'm next to you. Of course I smell your stupid banana berry bullshit thing. What's it doing to me when I could walk through a stranger's Strawberry Smash vape cloud?

Jessica Wynn: It seems like people don't think of vape clouds as secondhand smoke. Yeah, they're convinced it's water vapor, but you're definitely exposed.

That's secondhand aerosol and it's filled with nicotine and chemicals. And then there's something called third hand exposure.

Jordan Harbinger: Third hand, what's that?

Jessica Wynn: So firsthand is what the person vaping, inhales. Second hand is what you or I inhale if we're near them, [00:12:00] right? But third hand is the residue. Okay? So the nicotine and chemicals that clinging to walls, furniture, clothing, even car seats.

Jordan Harbinger: Yuck. Okay? So your couch is chain smo. Your car is chain smoking. I'm just imagining putting nicotine patches on my passenger seat to help ease the cravings. That's really gross. I didn't, you don't think about this.

Jessica Wynn: You don't think about it. But it's also your clothes, your curtains. Even your mattress if you vape indoors and the chemicals just don't sit there.

They break down and become microscopic toxic dust so people can absorb these microparticles through skin contact or dust inhalation. Children are especially vulnerable because they crawl around, they touch everything and they put all sorts of stuff in their mouths.

Jordan Harbinger: Not a snack. I wanna give my toddler.

Jessica Wynn: No, definitely not. And I'd even look out for kissing guys with beards who vape.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh God. Okay. I will try and [00:13:00] resist has not been an issue for me in the past.

Jessica Wynn: I mean, you never

Jordan Harbinger: know. Yeah. Sure.

Jessica Wynn: And the same goes for your pets. You know, dogs and cats groom themselves. They lick the residue off their fur, which means they ingest nicotine and toxins too.

So studies link this to respiratory illnesses in our animals.

Jordan Harbinger: Real estate listings should disclose that two bedroom, one bath, medium high nicotine saturation level. You know like when you have a meth lab in the house and they're like, you have to disclose that to the buyer. No, I

Jessica Wynn: didn't know that.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, you never saw a breaking bad Where he is got the meth lab and the basement of his parents' house, and then they try and sell it and they have to disclose that and he uses that to like.

Get the price lower. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway,

Jessica Wynn: I hope that makes the price go down.

Jordan Harbinger: I would imagine so, yeah.

Jessica Wynn: I mean that would be pretty useful to know, but experts are definitive, don't vape indoors. Same rule as smoking.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. I've seen scary stories about popcorn. Lung, there's metal, lung and vapes. Rewiring your DNA.

[00:14:00] Is any of that real?

Jessica Wynn: It's all real.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh no. So

Jessica Wynn: yeah, you're inhaling aerosolized, nicotine. Ultra fine particles and heavy metals. These irritate your lungs. They increase inflammation, they raise your heart rate and blood pressure. And as far as popcorn, lung, it's real, but it's pretty rare.

Jordan Harbinger: What is that exactly?

Jessica Wynn: So Popcorn lung is the nickname for bronchiolitis. Obl. Wow. Which is a severe disease. Yeah, it's a mouthful. Yeah. Wow. Which is a severe disease caused by diacetyl. Which is the chemical that gives processed foods a buttery flavor.

Jordan Harbinger: You know, silly me. I really thought they just used butter for that. My bad.

Yeah,

Jessica Wynn: I know. Synthetic.

Jordan Harbinger: Yep.

Jessica Wynn: It was first seen in microwave popcorn factory workers. That's why it's called popcorn lung.

Jordan Harbinger: Got it.

Jessica Wynn: So some early vape liquids contain diacetyl, though Most companies have removed it, but not all. The risk isn't widespread, but [00:15:00] it's not zero either.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh man. So people could literally be diagnosed with popcorn lung that's tragic and yet sounds ridiculous at the same time.

Or who knew? Orville Redden Baer was the

butcher. Orville Redden Baer would be so

Jessica Wynn: upset. And you mentioned metal lung, which Yeah, that one's not a formal diagnosis, but researchers have found the metals from coils in vape aerosols. So the bottom line is these clouds aren't harmless for the person vaping or the people nearby, or the people who come through after, frankly.

Jordan Harbinger: Hmm.

Jessica Wynn: You know, and studies show links between vape exposure and asthma. Cognitive deficits in children, and even a sudden infant death syndrome or sids, when exposure happens indoors around infants.

Jordan Harbinger: Holy hell, that's horrifying. I know, know this stuff is genuinely dangerous. Then this makes me wanna fumigate my furniture.

Not that there's any vape stuff on it, but still,

Jessica Wynn: but. Even. That's tough. I [00:16:00] mean, washing, vacuuming, even replacing your carpets doesn't always get rid of the residue.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Ugh. And people think it's just flavored steam basically. That's a powerful misconception. And I'm guessing it's not an accident. You know what won't explode in your pocket and take out half your face.

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It's a great companion to the show. We're taking the tips and tricks from our show, digesting those and putting 'em in a newsletter. It's a light lift. Go and sign up at Jordan harbinger.com/news. Now back to Skeptical Sunday. All right, so my house is a chemical crime scene. My couch is addicted. My dog is secretly a [00:19:00] nicotine sponge.

And at this point, wouldn't it just be better to go back to cigarettes? I don't know.

Jessica Wynn: No, not really. Okay, fine. I mean, that's not exactly how it works. Cigarettes are still really bad. Vaping just exposes you to different harms. And the thing is, however you inhale it, nicotine does give you a temporary feeling of relief.

There's this very small window where nicotine can lower stress, give you a focus boost, and a quick dopamine hit. But the crash from nicotine comes really fast, which makes you wanna take another drag or another hit, and that cycle actually increases stress overall. So the thing people think is calming them is making their anxiety worse.

It's brutal.

Jordan Harbinger: Sounds like every bad girlfriend I've ever had. All right. Yeah,

Jessica Wynn: right, right. I thought I had anxiety. Turns out I was just in a crummy relationship.

Jordan Harbinger: Right.

Jessica Wynn: But I mean, that's the reality of nicotine It, it fuels anxiety and depression and over time it worsens [00:20:00] mood disorders. So the links to this are stronger among teenagers.

You know, teen vaping is a mental health trap.

Jordan Harbinger: It seems like a step backwards. One minute everyone agrees that cigarettes are bad and smoking is on the decline. And then the next, every 16-year-old in America has a USB stick filled with mango mis. How the hell did we get here seemingly overnight.

Jessica Wynn: I know it really is a whiplash moment, but the first vape idea actually goes back almost a hundred years to 1927 when an electric vaporizer was patented, but it never went to market.

So then in the 1960s, this guy Herbert Gilbert, I just like his name. Oh my

Jordan Harbinger: gosh. Yeah. He patented Herbie. Herbie Gilbert. Herbie Gilbert.

Jessica Wynn: He patented a smokeless cigarette, but no one really cared. It wasn't until 2003 that a Chinese pharmacist finally nailed it with a product called Ruan. [00:21:00] He developed after his dad died of lung cancer.

His intentions were good. But

Jordan Harbinger: yeah, he and Herbie G didn't realize the smoky hell they had unleashed. I know.

Jessica Wynn: I don't think so. And vaping seems to have first made its way to the US around 2006. But the big explosion came with Juul in 2015. They had sleek designs, splashy social media ads and youth friendly flavors that felt like they were designed by a candy chemist.

So the marketing was everything. It was sold as a cool tech product that's safer than smoking.

Jordan Harbinger: So they just flooded the scene.

Jessica Wynn: I mean, it really did. And they made it discreet. So teachers thought JUULs were USB sticks, so kids could hide them in plain sight. Parents saw their kids charging them and just assumed it was homework.

Jordan Harbinger: Right. Okay. So yeah, 'cause you plug it into your computer. Meanwhile, little Jimmy's lungs are a chemical fruit salad.

Jessica Wynn: I know. And within months of Juul's release. Millions of [00:22:00] teens were hooked.

Jordan Harbinger: But wasn't Juul supposed to be about helping adults quit smoking? So how did it just go viral with kids?

Jessica Wynn: Yeah. Well, I mean, that was the public line.

The reality is most adults didn't quit. They just picked up a new habit. Meanwhile, Juul was advertising on Nickelodeon and the Cartoon Network.

Jordan Harbinger: Dude, I,

Jessica Wynn: yeah, I mean, it was before, you know, regulations got to them and so the teen markets skyrocketed. The company's profits, which got the attention of big tobacco and in 2018 tobacco Giant Altria.

Who are the makers of Marlboro products? They swooped in and bought a 35% stake of Juul for about $13 billion.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh my God. 13 billion. Holy crap. How did that turn out? By the way? Nickelodeon and Cartoon Network accepting that money is shamefully disgusting.

Jessica Wynn: They could have been duped too. I don't. Who knows what was happening.

It's very deceptive. I don't know. I'm just thinking like,

Jordan Harbinger: you're, you're buying ads on that So [00:23:00] Raven or something, right? And you're like, no, no, no. It's a, it's a tool for adults to quit smoking and there's adults watching this with their teenage kids and some, here's the money.

Jessica Wynn: Ask mom and dad before going into the smoke shop.

Kids. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: I just, I don't buy it. I think they didn't give a shit. That's what I think.

Jessica Wynn: But somebody did like it didn't go well for these companies. Right. And regulators did crack down. Lawsuits piled up and JUULs value tanked. By 2023, Altria traded at stake for JUULs intellectual property rights, meaning it walked away with JUULs patents making Juul independent again.

But Altria still profited from the technology.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. So let me get this straight. Big Tobacco tried to buy into Big Vape. It blew up in their face, kind of like a lava flavored volcano. A vape, like an actual vape cartridge itself. And they walked away with the patents anyway, which is a capitalistic fairytale.

Unbelievable.

Jessica Wynn: I know. Yeah. And now Altria owns multiple vape brands [00:24:00] like Njo Views, logic Plus Stakes, and others like. Plume and swic.

Jordan Harbinger: They all sound like sex toys that are only legal in Southeast Asia. All the branding is so corny,

Jessica Wynn: so they pretty much said, fine. If we can't own Juul, we'll just own everything else.

You know, they're making sure they control the nicotine market, whether you're smoking vaping or both. Or even trying to quit.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Jessica Wynn: Altria owns Zin pouch, which is supposed to help you quit.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh my gosh. So, breaking news, your healthier alternative to Marlboros is owned by Marlboro.

Jessica Wynn: Right. Which means they're raking in the profits and the vaping industry is now worth about $30 billion globally.

In the US alone, the profits are projected to be about $10 billion this year, which means they're able to put hundreds of millions into advertising on social media through influencers. They're paying people with millions of followers to just [00:25:00] casually vape in their posts. They're not even commercials.

Jordan Harbinger: They've tried to do this with me. Like, Hey, do you vape? Would you vape on your show? And then talk about the, and I'm like, no. Not only that, like, no, I use my voice for a living. You think I want to be inhaling this toxic shit? No, sir.

Jessica Wynn: We're responsible for even one person getting up. Oh

Jordan Harbinger: my gosh. Yeah. Oh, I really love banana berry.

You know, God dog fart vapes. They're so good. Mm. It's like it's not an ad, it's just there in your face that that's the thing is that they try to be sneaky with it. It's not just like, do this read for vapes. It's like, use it so that people see you using it and then think it's cool. Which by the way, not sure how that works.

Ask my kids, you know, do things daddy does. Is that cool? Uh, so. Anyway, I probably shouldn't shi on myself that hard, but like it's, they're sneaky about it deliberately, and I just hate it. I, I can't stand it.

Jessica Wynn: Right. And, and your kid's favorite talker? Who's doing some, you know, innocent room tour?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. [00:26:00] Here's my studio guys.

Oh, there's my trusty vape in the corner there, right? Yeah.

Jessica Wynn: Oh, look, there's a vape on the table, right? How organic. At the same time, the CDC estimates that youth vaping costs the US healthcare system, billions of dollars from related illnesses and ER visits.

Jordan Harbinger: So we're spending money, we taxpayers are spending money to clean up the mess that companies are making billions of dollars.

Creating. That's a pretty perfect closed loop capitalist nightmare. Again, you know, I love capitalism. Biggest engine for upward mobility in human history. Sometimes there's externalities like this that just don't, yuck. Plus the marketing. It looks like it's for a candy store. That's the other thing, right?

It's bright colors, flavors with ridiculous names that I will continue to make fun of on this episode. It just doesn't scream, Hey, this is for middle aged smokers trying to quit. If I'm a 45-year-old dude and I'm trying to quit smoking. I might go for mint, but I'm not going for fricking berry blast unicorn [00:27:00] farts.

I'm just not doing that.

Jessica Wynn: Right, right. That probably exists. I don't think you're too far off, and that's intentional. You know, Juul pioneered the look, but disposable vapes took it to a whole nother level. Now you've got brands with flavors that sound like cocktails or crayon colors and they're everywhere.

Gas stations, smoke shops, seven elevens and all over social media.

Jordan Harbinger: I was just doing some research for another episode that's coming out in a few months and it made me wonder if there's pumpkin spice latte vape. Certainly there is that flavor is special for certain reasons, which I will disclose in that episode.

The

Jessica Wynn: marketing team would be fools not to have that, right?

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. And the social media with the subliminal vaping promotions, it just like, it just makes me angry. It really does.

Jessica Wynn: Well, it's not always that subtle though. You know, kids are posting vape trick videos all the time. Oh yeah. And they're blowing rings, tornadoes, jellyfish clouds.

They're turning vaping into a performance art. So social [00:28:00] media glamorizes it as a skillful, trendy, shareable thing. It's some of the best free advertising for vape products,

Jordan Harbinger: addiction content on an addictive platform, which is, I mean, how meta is that? No pun intended. That makes me worry about my kids.

Like they're a long way off from teenage stuff, but it's going to happen in the blink of an eye. I'm very familiar with this and it's like maybe there's technical solutions so I can see what they're watching on their phones or maybe limit what they're doing online, which I hope they can't easily get around, which they probably can't.

But then like what they put in their body, it's tougher, you know? Like how am I gonna know that they've got a vape disguised as a whatever or something they keep at school. I'm not dumb enough to think that I'm smart enough to catch my kids doing stuff when I pulled the wool over my parents' eyes on many harmless, relatively harmless things up.

Of course, growing up, we all

Jessica Wynn: go through it. Maybe they'll have, yeah. You know, robots that can vape for them or something. Oh my God. But it kind of seems [00:29:00] like parents, sorry. To you, but it sort of seems like you don't stand a chance. No,

Jordan Harbinger: I agree. That's part of the reason I won't spread this crap to other people's kids.

I just, because why am I working against you? We need to be working together anyway. Yeah. Parents don't stand a chance. It's, this is easier to hide than cigarettes. Right. If you smoke a cigarette in the house anywhere, you will smell it a week later in every room. Right. But if you vape, you can kind of like blow that into your pillowcase and no one's gonna notice.

The slight residue of strawberry shortcake in the corner of a little girl's room.

Jessica Wynn: Oh gosh. That really just depressed me.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I like, how do you even know if your kid is vaping? Are there, are there, what do I look for?

Jessica Wynn: Vapes do have a smell. Okay. And so it's something I think we're becoming more familiar with, even the so-called nicotine free varieties.

But besides the smell, vapes increase your thirst. So if you notice that change in your kid, you might raise an eyebrow. They make you [00:30:00] irritable when you can't vape Uhhuh because it's so addictive. You'd see random USB chargers everywhere. You know, several schools have removed bathroom stall doors or exterior doors to cut down on vaping between classes.

Jordan Harbinger: That is dystopian. Like what if you have to poop? Just looking out for the poopers. What are you gonna do? How can we make the school bathroom even worse? Okay. I've read about students stealth vaping because again, the devices are so small, you can put it in your mouth and pretend like you're putting a gum in or like your pencil.

You pull your shirt up over your face and you just vape during class while you pretend you're reading and no one's gonna see the smoke come out. And then it's like something smells faintly of blueberry. Which one of you is it? And the answer is like half the class

Jessica Wynn: I know. And our teachers have a lot of other things to worry about.

Yeah. They shouldn't

Jordan Harbinger: even have to police this nonsense. Like, okay, your kid's on drugs. I'm not doing shit about it. 'cause I gotta teach math to a bunch of kids that don't even wanna be here.

Jessica Wynn: Right. I wonder if they figured out this stealth trick. When they're all [00:31:00] wearing masks during the pandemic, you know?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Jessica Wynn: We gave them that opportunity. But

Speaker 4: exactly,

Jessica Wynn: there are now vape detectors commonly used, especially in schools and other public buildings, so they detect particulate matter in the air.

Jordan Harbinger (2): Hmm.

Jessica Wynn: So my advice here is if your habit sets off actual alarms. Maybe think about quitting.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. It must have taken parents in schools a while to catch on.

'cause parents in schools are not exactly, especially schools, public schools, they're not exactly like on all this stuff. 'cause they have so many other things they have to do with all the money they don't have. And so like to have vape alarms installed, I mean, I just, that must have taken like forever,

Jessica Wynn: right?

Yeah. I mean, you would have to be in a. Affluent district. Yeah, probably. But

Jordan Harbinger: yes,

Jessica Wynn: there was a 2023 study in a journal called Tobacco Control and that found that media framed vaping in two extremes. So it was either presented as a [00:32:00] miracle quit tool for adults or this really horrible youth epidemic. That dual framing confused parents and policymakers.

I mean, it still does.

Jordan Harbinger: So one headline says, vaping saves lives, and the next day it says, bubblegum vape kills your child. So of course, parents are confused. Where's the FDA in all this? Does the FDA even exist still? I don't even know

Jessica Wynn: they are behind, that's for sure. The FDA has authorized only a handful of products in limited flavors like tobacco and menthol.

Thousands of unauthorized disposables flood the market. Mm-hmm. If you walk into a store, they're, most of those probably aren't supposed to be on the shelves, and many are manufactured overseas and sold illegally in the US as tech products. The FDA just can't keep up with the enforcement.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's interesting.

There are smoke shop. There's a smoke shop next to my barbershop. I never go in there, but I see like the sketchiest of characters going in and outta that [00:33:00] place, basically. And it doesn't smell like tobacco, menthol, it smells like a bunch of crazy fruits all mixed together. You know, like chemical fruits all mixed together.

So there's no way that they only have tobacco and menthol flavors. In that place.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah. And, and I mean, the FDA is pretty much playing a game of regulatory whack-a-mole. So kids are buying products designed to look like highlighters or toys, you know, even school supplies that are sold as things called tanks or pods, you know, they're not labeled as a vape or an e-cigarette.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. So the market innovating faster than regulators can act as a tale as old as time. But highlighter, vapes, I mean, that is so. Offensively obvious that the hidden highlighter thing is so kids can bring it to school undetected.

Jessica Wynn: I know. So are, are kids running these companies

Jordan Harbinger: for real?

Jessica Wynn: Um, you know, I mean, they literally look like school supplies and they're often manufactured in China, smuggled into the US and sold without approval.

They often contain [00:34:00] even higher nicotine levels than legal products.

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Check out Jordan harbinger.com/deals now for the rest of Skeptical Sunday. The telltale sign is when the class loser, slacker, whatever, has like three different highlighters and you're like, wow, it's

Jessica Wynn: really

Jordan Harbinger: buckling down. Timmy's taking algebra pretty seriously. Yeah. [00:38:00] Wow. Look at that. So your pencil case is now a nicotine cartel.

Terrific. I mean, that's gross.

Jessica Wynn: I mean that's the reality. Reports estimate illegal vaping products make up a huge chunk of the US market.

Jordan Harbinger: Is anybody even going after these illegal sales somehow? I mean, how do you even do that? There's probably a ton.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah. I mean, there have been lawsuits against e-cigarette companies, primarily JUUL, for illegal sales marketing to underage users and misleading consumers about health risks.

Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

Jessica Wynn: So significant settlements have happened, including one by JUUL for over a billion dollars to many states to fund prevention programs and address. The youth vaping crisis,

Jordan Harbinger: is it the same in other countries? You mentioned Singapore, who's, you know, they're notoriously strict that you can't make a gum there or whatever, but how else is it being handled elsewhere?

Jessica Wynn: So the UK regulates some nicotine vapes as medical quit tools, but they banned youth focused marketing and flavors similar [00:39:00] New Zealand. Canada implemented a maximum nicotine concentration. Australia requires prescriptions for nicotine vapes.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow.

Jessica Wynn: And China only allows tobacco flavored products domestically.

Jordan Harbinger: So wait. China manufactures flavored vapes for the world market, but does not sell them domestically. That says it all.

Jessica Wynn: China. I, yeah, I mean, that's right. In 2022, China banned the sale of flavored vapes. But still exports them internationally, mainly to the us.

Jordan Harbinger: So China took one look at what they were making and they were like, oh hell no, not our kids.

And then they shipped 'em all to America. That's just incredible. We're literally importing products that other countries have deemed too dangerous for their own populations.

Jessica Wynn: Right.

Jordan Harbinger: Crazy.

Jessica Wynn: And what's more incredible is that countries that have implemented strict regulations do see positive results. Vaping rates in Europe where they crack down on youth marketing are [00:40:00] significantly lower in than in the us.

Australia's prescription model keeps vaping numbers very low. It's under 2% of their teens that vape. And when New Zealand banned most flavored vapes, their youth vaping rates dropped over 25% in two years. So the playbook works, plain packaging, flavor restrictions, age verification, marketing bands. When you actually enforce these measures, fewer people will vape.

It's not rocket science, it's just regulation.

Jordan Harbinger: That's a big contrast between vaping laws here and another countries. Wow. So other countries saw the problem, came up with a solution, and here in the States we're like freedom free market. The US is one of the most chaotic markets. This is crazy.

Jessica Wynn: And America has huge loopholes.

We have weak enforcement and constant new products that. Know how to skirt any new regulation.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. But if the FDA hasn't authorized them, how are they still everywhere? Enforcement?

Jessica Wynn: [00:41:00] Yeah. Well, it's an enforcement gap, you know, the FDA doesn't have the resources to keep up and companies launch new flavors and designs faster than regulators can respond.

Jordan Harbinger: So the FDA is jogging behind all out of breath. Maybe they should quit vaping.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah, right. It pretty much sums up the marketing machine in a nutshell though. Yeah. You know, and meanwhile, the numbers tell their own story. In 2023, about six point a half percent of US adults vaped among 21 to 24 year olds, it was over 15%.

And among high schoolers, use seemed to decline in 2024 to about 6%. That's still more than 800,000 children vaping.

Jordan Harbinger: 800,000 kids. That's like every marching band in America hitting a vape cloud at halftime Gross. Oh God.

Jessica Wynn: And one in four American high school boys reported trying it at least once.

Jordan Harbinger: So the cigarette alternative just became [00:42:00] another category of nicotine delivery entirely.

Jessica Wynn: Yes. And vaping, those aerosols. Like I said, it irritates and inflames your lungs and blood vessels. It raises your heart rate, your blood pressure, and it's just delivering a very high addictive dose of nicotine. All this sets the stage for asthma, COPD, heart attack and stroke.

Jordan Harbinger: You're starting to sound like the warning voice on pharmaceutical ads, you know, may cause headaches, nausea, uncontrollable diarrhea, sudden death, like

Jessica Wynn: that's another thing America does is we advertise pharmacist.

Pharmaceuticals. Yes. Most countries don't do that. No. Almost.

Jordan Harbinger: I think the only other country that does is New Zealand and they have a ton of restrictions.

Jessica Wynn: Right. Yeah. It's bizarre. We, we are a strange place. But it's true. I mean, am I the only one who remembers when the Marlboro man died of lung cancer?

Mm-hmm.

Jen Harbinger: You know,

Jessica Wynn: and it, and it's not just cancer. When nicotine raises heart rate and blood pressure. It makes many cardiovascular problems worse.

Jordan Harbinger: So the so-called safer [00:43:00] alternative is just, it's an unregulated health crisis,

Jessica Wynn: right? And it's not just the nicotine, illegal disposables have been found containing aline, which is a chemical that damages the lungs.

And then there's other heavy metals that harm the cardiovascular system. And we don't even fully know the long-term risks yet. You know, cigarettes took decades before we had the hard cancer data. With vaping, we're less than 20 years in, but already seeing concerning signs,

Jordan Harbinger: harmful consequences really shouldn't surprise anyone here.

But what are we seeing actually, specifically?

Jessica Wynn: So animal studies show common vape ingredients, increased lung tumors and case reports have linked those tasty vape juices to aggressive stomach cancers, as well as lung cancer and severe lung injuries. Because nicotine suppresses the immune system. It may make it harder for your body to fight off cancer cells of any kind.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:44:00] So vaping is like cancer's hype, man.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah. Great.

Jordan Harbinger: But at every party I I hear it's like, Hey man, it's better than smoking. No, it isn't. Apparently. Well, maybe, I don't know.

Jessica Wynn: I mean, I guess technically you might be able to say that, but that would be a really weird hill to die on. Sure. Cigarettes contain more carcinogens because of.

Combustion and vaping has fewer of those, but it doesn't mean vaping is harmless. It's just a different kind of harm. You're just swapping out combustion for chemicals. So there's still health risks. You've just been fooled by marketing

Jordan Harbinger: and vape. Pens are machines, don't these things blow up or is that just kind of like Florida headline stuff?

Jessica Wynn: It happens In 2017, there was a famous story about a man in Idaho. He had his vape pen explode in his mouth.

Jordan Harbinger: Dang,

Jessica Wynn: he lost seven teeth. He suffered burns to his face and that's not an isolated incident. So others have had pockets catch on fire from battery [00:45:00] explosions. There are definitely different concerns than a cigarette

Jordan Harbinger: pocket pipe bombs, man.

Have vapes ever killed anyone directly from something like this?

Jessica Wynn: They have. There was a really big scare in 2019 with what was called the E valley outbreak. E valley stands for e-cigarette or vaping associated lung injury.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. It's a mouthful.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah. Or, or a lungful.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I should have thought of that.

Jessica Wynn: The CDC traces most cases of Ali to elicit THC cartridges.

That are cut with vitamin E acetate it cause severe and sometimes fatal lung damage. Dozens of people died. Thousands were hospitalized.

Jordan Harbinger: I do remember that. It was like, why are all these people dying? And they're, they've got vapes. And then it was like, oh my God. And it was like, oh, they have vapes that looks like they made or something, or someone made, it was

Jessica Wynn: a chemistry experiment and they mixed the wrong things together.

Jordan Harbinger: So it wasn't every vape, just specific weed ones,

Jessica Wynn: it seems to be, yeah. And it, it just, but it revealed how [00:46:00] dangerous this unregulated market is. So some of those cartridges also had heavy metals, even synthetic cannabinoids, which we've discussed how problematic they can be when we did the CBD episode and pesticides.

Jordan Harbinger: Pesticides in my vape. I know. Wow.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: It some

Jessica Wynn: manufacturing processes introduce harmful pesticides into the vape liquid.

Jordan Harbinger: But this doesn't happen with nicotine vapes, or

Jessica Wynn: No, it does. These toxins are in both weed and nicotine vapes. Yes.

Jordan Harbinger: So the nicotine vapes can explode too?

Jessica Wynn: Oh yeah, they definitely can.

Most commonly from faulty batteries are overcharging though it wasn't because of the chemical mixture. So typically not when using 'em, usually when they're plugged in and charging.

Jordan Harbinger: So they definitely are freak accidents. It's like Wiley Coyote designed these things. That's crazy. Acme vapes.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah. The difference between nicotine and weed vapes isn't the technology, but.

Cannabis vapes come with their [00:47:00] own additional risks.

Jordan Harbinger: I know people who say like, oh, I don't do nicotine. I just vape weed, and that's better.

Jessica Wynn: They're mistaken. It's not their fault, but they're wrong. So first, the THC concentrations are much higher than traditional pot smoking. That increases the risk of anxiety, paranoia, even psychosis, especially in young people whose brains are still developing.

Jordan Harbinger: So instead of being mellow, you get candy coated paranoia. Fun.

Jessica Wynn: That's, that's probably a vape flavor. Yeah, pretty much. Um, you know, physically cannabis vapes cause wheezing and respiratory problems more than the nicotine ones. A University of Michigan study found adolescent cannabis vapors reported more lung issues than tobacco smokers or nicotine vapers.

Jordan Harbinger: So weed vapes are actually worse for the lungs than cigarettes. That's not a good marketing pitch,

Jessica Wynn: right? But that's the risk. And better alternatives for cannabis are edibles, tinctures, or in my [00:48:00] very unpopular opinion, not using at all. There's this social perception that weed is safer to vape or smoke because it's natural, and that's just not the case.

This does not make nicotine better to vape. Nicotine alone can impair adolescent brain development until around age 25. It changes how normal circuits form, which affects memory attention, and increases addiction risk. That's why, especially for young people, there's just no amount of nicotine that's safe.

Jordan Harbinger: And you said products marketed as nicotine free often contain nicotine, but we can, can we feel better about vaping the ones that are truly nicotine free? Or, or, or No,

Jessica Wynn: no. A study this year exposed pregnant mice to vape liquids with zero nicotine and just the base chemicals of propylene glycol and vegetable glycerin.

Their offspring were born smaller with narrower [00:49:00] skulls and bone changes.

Jordan Harbinger: Wait, vaping, reshaped the skulls of baby mice. That's gross.

Jessica Wynn: Is that insane? Yeah. Yeah. And it, it shows these so-called harmless carriers are not harmless. And if you're pregnant. Vaping of any kind. It's just a hard no.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. This is such a long way from, Hey man, it's just water vapor to might literally change the skull of your baby.

God. No. The baby's head shape, geez. And yet people are still using these things literally by the millions. My man, my lungs are inflamed. Just listening to this. Let's give people something hopeful. If somebody listening right now has a vape in their pocket that hasn't exploded yet or in their mouth, how do you actually quit this stuff?

Jessica Wynn: Well, I mean, first you need a plan. These are highly addictive machines with highly addictive substances. Truth Initiative has campaigns specifically designed around this

Jordan Harbinger: Truth initiative? That's the organization that makes all the anti-smoking ads with the dead bodies and stuff, [00:50:00] right?

Jessica Wynn: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You, you, some people might remember the ad campaign where they unloaded more than a thousand body bags on the steps of Philip Morris headquarters. That was sort of what put them on the map,

Jordan Harbinger: right? But

Jessica Wynn: they have put out lots of anti-smoking campaigns with the goal of ending smoking. They're more than an ad company.

They have targeted programs to help people quit. So for adults, nicotine replacement therapy is recommended, like patches, gum, lozenges, or prescription medications. So pair that with behavioral support like. Quit lines or counseling for a combination that actually works long term. It's really hard to quit,

Jordan Harbinger: but let's be real.

Come on. Teenagers are not slapping on nicotine patches or scheduling Zoom calls with quit coaches. What about them? It's gotta, you gotta have a cool way to quit that replaces the habits somehow.

Jessica Wynn: I mean, that's where programs like Truths vaping know the truth. Come in. It's a free digital [00:51:00] curriculum that helps teens understand the risks of vaping.

Teens who enroll are 35% more likely to quit using nicotine. They also have something called the X Program, which is designed by Truth initiative with the Mayo Clinic, so anyone can text ditch it, D-I-T-C-H-I-T, to 8 8 7 0 9, and get personalized coaching and community support. Over 750,000 young people have used it, and clinical trials show it boosted quit rates by 40%.

So give them something to text and it's more successful.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. That sounds like de shit

anyway. Uh, that's, you're not supposed to laugh at your own jokes, Jordan. I approve. I approve. It's not just about shaming kids, it's about helping them. God, that was so dumb. Even for me, it's about helping them out of the trap, [00:52:00] giving them actual tools, and so that, that's actually awesome. I'm glad that that's working.

Something has to work.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah. We need to approach it differently than just being mad at these kids for succumbing to these billion dollar companies. Right? Punishment doesn't work. Demonizing kids does nothing. You suspending a teen for vaping, it's just not addressing the issue. So education, resources and compassion are more successful.

To keep kids off nicotine, you have to meet them where they are and make quitting possible. So Truth's text program, this is quitting. It's reached over 500,000 teens and. We'll link to the truth programs and their great ads in the show notes.

Jordan Harbinger: I like that because the industry has billions of dollars and armies of marketers.

You can't just yell at kids and expect them to beat an addiction to Blue RAs, icy bong, hit armpit, vape or whatever, with sheer willpower, it's not gonna happen.

Jessica Wynn: You're giving them ideas. Stop. Uh,

Jordan Harbinger: yeah. You're giving, they're [00:53:00] giving them a whole new lineup of new flavors. Hmm.

Jessica Wynn: And teens get addicted to vapes faster than adults due to their still developing brains, which are more sensitive to nicotine's reward effects, and have a less developed prefrontal cortex that controls impulses.

Jordan Harbinger: And do you think those nicotine replacement tools work for adults?

Jessica Wynn: There is a high success rate, so they release nicotine more slowly and at lower doses. The big thing is they don't reinforce the addictive inhaling behavior. They're meant to taper off. So unlike vapes, they're designed to end addiction, not maintain it.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Patches are so boring, though. Not quite the cool image as smoking or vaping at the party. So the bottom line is nicotine replacement therapy is for adults trying to quit, and for kids prevention and support are the better routes,

Jessica Wynn: right? Right. The verdict is that vaping is not safe for anyone. So for adults, it may have a role in quitting [00:54:00] cigarettes, if that's the intention, but only with a plan to quit vaping too, which that's hard, right?

And for kids it's just a hard no. Don't let a USB stick run your dopamine schedule.

Jordan Harbinger: And this isn't just about individual willpower. These devices are, come on, they're engineered by billion dollar corporations to be as addictive as possible. It's not some kind of personal failing. Right. This is corporate design.

They're using your psychology against you and they have all the resources in the world to do that.

Jessica Wynn: Right. And they're just so good at it.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Jessica Wynn: That's why regulation, policy and public health campaigns matter so much. People can't fight billion dollar marketing machines on willpower alone. Vaping's not harmless.

Don't be the Guinea pig in big tobacco's, you know, newest science experiment.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. What gets me the most man is we've been here before, we did this dance with cigarettes for 50 freaking years. The lies, the targeted marketing to kids, the bought off scientists, the lawsuits, the [00:55:00] slow ride to the truth with them fighting us at every turn, and we paid for that with millions of lives.

And somehow we're just letting it happen again with kids, just with a different delivery system and better branding.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah, I know. I mean, talk about living at growing up in a crazy house. I had a poster of Joe Camel in my fruit.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow, that's, it's like freaking crazy.

Jessica Wynn: But you know, maybe it's the optimist in me, but we know what works.

We see it in other countries like China and New Zealand. There's strong regulation, there's flavor bans, age verification, marketing restrictions. So educational campaigns that don't condescend to young people, but actually give them the tools they need. So these programs like Truth Initiative aren't just making scary ads.

They're giving people real support and real resources, and it's working. Those 40% higher quit rates. That's real. That's live saved futures not [00:56:00] derailed by addiction and medical bills.

Jordan Harbinger: These tobacco and vape corporations are predators and we are all there prey. If you're a parent like me, the best thing we can do is talk to our kids, really talk to them, make sure they know these companies are out to make them a customer for life.

Let them know the temptation has affected all of us. We're here to help them fight the pressure to vape. So no judgment toward my vaping listeners. But you can quit. Folks. There are people who want to help you. And if you need help quitting, check out the X Program Truth initiative and all the resources we've mentioned here on the show text.

Ditch it to 8 8 7 0 9. Don't let a flavored machine write your obituary. And for the love of God, keep that watermelon berry mint cloud outta my face. Thanks everyone for listening. Topic suggestions for future episodes of Skeptical Sunday can come directly to me, jordan@jordanharbinger.com. Advertisers deals, discounts, ways to support the show, searchable and clickable on the website at Jordan harbinger.com/deals.

I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me [00:57:00] on LinkedIn. You can find Jessica on her sub stacks. That's plural. One is called Between the Lines and the other one is Where Shadows Linger. We'll link to that in the show notes as well. This show is created in association with PodcastOne.

My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Tadas Sidlauskas, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Gabriel Mizrahi in there somewhere. Our advice and opinions are our own, and yeah, I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Also, we, of course, we try to get these. Episodes. We try to get 'em as right as we can. Not everything is gospel, even if it's FactCheck.

So consult a professional before applying anything you hear on the show, especially if it's about your health and wellbeing. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use a good dose of the skepticism and knowledge that we doled out today.

Maybe you know somebody who vapes, they would love this one, or maybe they wouldn't, but you can share it with 'em anyway. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. We'll see you next time. Behind the spectacle of pro sports lies a multi-billion dollar [00:58:00] shadow economy built on exploitation and corruption.

In this preview, Chris Dalby unpacks how global crime syndicates have infiltrated the games we love.

JHS Trailer: Everybody who's a hardcore sports fan has engaged with. How organized crime is moving into sports in really worrying ways and have been for a long time. Multiple sponsors of top European soccer teams, including champions of the Premier League in England, so some of the most wealthiest sports properties in the world have had shirt sponsors that are linked to organized crime.

Illegal betting is worth 1.7 trillion US dollars a year. Sports is one of the main vectors for human traffick. There are tens of thousands of kids not okay all over Europe, increasingly in the Middle East, increasingly in Asia and in the US They're either in soccer, prison camps, depending on how organized it is.

And these kids are from Kazakhstan, Costa Rica, Congo. In the US it's soccer increasingly, but it's basketball. Kids from Africa being promised NBA trials, it's baseball, Dominican Republic, Venezuelan kids being promised careers in the MLB and [00:59:00] they're being milked and no one pays attention to it because sport has this magic reputation.

But at the heart of it, why I do what I do, why we have the sports and crime thing. We've also created the first fact checking platform for sports called Free to Play. I'd just like kids who wanna play football to not be trafficked please, or to not be scammed and bankrupt their family and no one's looking out for them.

And that's what scares me when the footballing authorities, when the sports authorities say, we're about the kids. We're about helping everybody. You've proven that you're not so please up your game. This is genuinely. One of the most innovative criminal threats you've seen in years.

Jordan Harbinger: Catch the full episode on how organized crime quietly runs the business of modern sports on episode 1204 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.