1157: Kelsey Grammer | Channeling Grief into Artistic Authenticity

1157: Kelsey Grammer | Channeling Grief into Artistic Authenticity

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Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Coming up next on The Jordan Harbinger Show.

Kelsey Grammer: But to remember somebody into the grace of the good that they left you and the good that you had with them, that's more important than the grief. The grief is forever. It's just there imprinted on you, but it's only a crime if you allow the grief to overwhelm the imprint of the good.

Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On the Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker through long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks.

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That'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit Jordan harbinger.com/start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started. Today on the show, Hollywood Legend Kelsey Grammer of Cheers and Frazier renowned. We have a refreshingly real conversation about his career and struggles including substance abuse on the set and off.

We explore how he prepares for roles, handles rejection and career setbacks. We also dove in pretty deep on the tragic murder of his sister in the aftermath of that formative life experience, grief, acting, career longevity, and a whole lot more. I've really enjoyed this conversation. I think you will as well.

Now, here we go with Kelsey Grammer. I'm excited about this. I've read the whole book on the airplane. Thank you. And it's emotionally not a light read as you no know. And my seatmate was like, are you okay, man, because you're narrating this book. Right? And for those who don't know, it's about a really heavy subject that we'll get into.

But I'm laughing about some anecdote and then I'm like. Tearing up and I'm like, oh my God, [00:02:00] what if this was my life? And you think about your own kids or your own siblings, and then you're laughing again. Is he genuinely concerned about me or does he think I'm like having a mental illness event on the airplane?

Kelsey Grammer: He's uncomfortable. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: He's like, how long is this flight from SFO to New York City again? Oh, that's long enough. Seven hours. Tell me about getting kicked out, or sorry, removed from Julliard. What

Kelsey Grammer: happened there? Uh, it didn't seem to be a momentous thing for me. It was like, okay. I didn't really care for my acting teacher The second year I was going to the acting school.

Oh, I, sorry, that wasn't gonna work out. I took the news as if it were, you know, a graduation in a weird way, like a, a sign, a talisman, I guess you could call it that said, you gotta go do something else. It didn't mean I was gonna do something other than acting it just thought I wasn't gonna be at Julliard anymore.

So that's the way I always took it. My girlfriend wasn't in really good shape with after that was challenging.

Jordan Harbinger: I would imagine that's such a tenuous time in someone's life, right? Because you're with another person. And [00:03:00] for, I went to law school, right? So it's like this person that I'm with is gonna be a lawyer and this is what our life is gonna look like.

And once he graduates is gonna probably work in Manhattan or la and then it's like, oh, he's gonna work at Target over the summer. There's nothing wrong with that. Right. But when does he get back into the whole like promising career? That's gonna make me a lot of money thing.

Kelsey Grammer: I was thinking the kid that rode a motorcycle is working on a fishing boat.

Yeah. She was like, oh, this is not going well.

Jordan Harbinger: Fishing boat is very funny because the only guy know who's done that is like my second cousin and he is like. Yeah, my roommate in Alaska, we were crab catching. He slept with a gun under his pillow and I'm like on a boat, who's gonna get him on a boat? You never know.

Kelsey Grammer: You

Jordan Harbinger: never know. You know

Kelsey Grammer: that's every read Moby Dick, you know? Clearly

Jordan Harbinger: that guy had so many enemies. He was like, you never know. They might swim out here. Really? Get in the head

Kelsey Grammer: with a crab trap. Yeah,

Jordan Harbinger: exactly. There's an interesting bit where they teach you in Julliard, I think, how to connect with your emotions and they had you think of your grandfather who had passed away when you were 12 and you said you used this throughout the rest of your career.

Is that as simple as it sounds, you just think of somebody that is no [00:04:00] longer there?

Kelsey Grammer: No. Used it in the for the rest of my career because the openness is what I used. I see. It opened me up at the time and I discovered that I had this ability to just be in that moment. The exercise is just called an emotional recall, and I had picked my grandfather because I'd never really explored.

What it meant to me, except for the one time I cried when I was a young man, when I was 12, which is when he died. So in doing the emotional recall, gene actually asked me, he said, who are you dealing with? And I said, it was my grandfather. And that's when he said, tell him you love him. And I'd never told him.

It was an amazing outpouring of emotion, which just became a tool in a weird way. It was like integrated instantly. It was programmed into me. I could then loan that part of me to almost anything. In any situation, but I wouldn't have to pick another situation. It would be like that muscle was open now exercised.

Jordan Harbinger: I wonder, did you find more of that when you had kids because you have seven kids?

Kelsey Grammer: Yeah, I got seven kids. My kids are fascinating. What's funny about being a parent and [00:05:00] having been through what happened to my sister and stuff like that, without trying to mark them with it, I'm very cautious about what I project onto my kids.

But I do project sometimes a fear. A fear for their wellbeing that is semi irrational, but it is programmed based upon what I've experienced. And I find myself having these paranoid fantasies. I call 'em, but they aren't particularly constructive. And I do my best to, my wife will say, wipe them off. Just wipe that off.

And so I try to do that. But yeah, I just care for them so deeply and and hope that they are not visited with the same kind of torment and pain.

Jordan Harbinger: I may have more follow up on that later. 'cause as a parent, it's one of those things where you go, why did I do this to myself? Like I, no, get me wrong. I love my kids, but there was this part of my heart that was like bulletproof and now it's just open to the exposed air.

Good for you. It's just terrible. Yeah. But it's wonderful and terrible at the same time. It's like falling asleep with your mouth open. You wake up and you go, it's, it is not good. No. [00:06:00] Kelsey, in your memoir, you recount these just harrowing details of your sister, Karen's final moments. It's heartbreaking and it's deeply personal.

And I wonder why you chose now to revisit this painful chapter in your life.

Kelsey Grammer: It's interesting. I had, I've integrated a lot with the mediums and mediumship and spiritualists. Oh wow. Okay. And all sorts of stuff. It's like psychic kind of stuff. Yeah. I produced a show called Medium years ago. Oh, remember that?

Just very popular. But it was pretty much an outcropping of my desire to find out more stuff from that part of the. Existence, whatever you might call it. And so I've had a relationship traffic with different mediums throughout my lifetime and sometimes they would bring around Karen or they'd mention something and I was always a bit of scance with it because I thought, do they know about it?

Do they historically know about it, or are they really channeling sister a scam? Is this real? Yeah. Then there's ways to start telling when you're in a sitting if it's really a blind sitting or not, if they've done some research and it's hard if they've done research for them to really be honest. Mm-hmm.

But some [00:07:00] folks. I had a great pal that was a psychometrist. She would hold something and get things out of it, and she said once, if I'm sitting there saying, hi, there's a will here, A will, I think will. And you are sitting there saying, oh yeah, it's William in my head and you're not telling me. Then you're being a jerk.

Jordan Harbinger: That's one of those like, throw away stuff at the wall and see what sticks. Yeah,

Kelsey Grammer: but if I'm like 70% there. That's pretty high. And that's what my standard became was if somebody's about 70%, that's extraordinary. If they don't know you, that's amazing. And so I've had a few remarkable things like that, and this one woman, Esther, that I was dealing with in the middle of a reading that was constructed by a friend who said, oh, you should maybe talk with Esther.

She's really good with things. Okay. So we scheduled a meeting and there was a phone session and she says, oh, your sister's here. She wants you to tell her story. I thought, wow. 'cause she didn't know what the story was at the time. And she says, oh. And then she drifted off a bit and said, oh yeah, she says, tell her story.

So that was what [00:08:00] generated the idea.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Wow.

Kelsey Grammer: After so long. And of course I've spoken to Karen before and some of the aftermath of dealing with the tragedy and trying to live on and go on and carry her at the same time. But I never really looked at it through her story. And I thought, that's pretty interesting.

How am I gonna do that? So I sat down a couple months later finally, and I started to write some notes. I. I wrote about eight or nine pages of stuff and I thought, oh, I guess I'm writing a book. So that's what it was. Wow. Yeah. It's 50 years later and I think, you know, if what I'm selling is true and I think it is, Karen wanted me to unburden this finally to be lighter.

Jordan Harbinger: Can you tell us what happened to her, to Karen?

Kelsey Grammer: Yeah. She was, uh, abducted and then murdered. Raped and murdered, uh, on July 1st, 1975. And. I think she was with them for about four hours and then was murdered. But, uh, I, I, I was fairly graphic in the description of what I got from the police report. [00:09:00] I wanted to share some of it with people, to have them understand what it was to experience.

'cause I wanted to make sure that everything was honest, everything was true. And as I started to write the book, the relationship between me and the reader. Felt like I was taking a friend through this with me, and that sort of defined it all. I, at one point in the book, it was about maybe 60 pages in, I think I actually wrote a letter to the reader and said, thank you for being here.

I've got you now, and take this journey with me. If you like, you can stop too. I, I've always wanted people to feel free that they didn't have to continue, but it was a really emotional journey for me, and it was given more value because I started to realize there are other people who have experienced the same thing.

Those of us who share an experience that maybe I can bring some relief to in the fact that I'm finding relief as well and not to carry so much of it. We did struggle for years with guilt about it and that I wasn't there, that I couldn't stop it, and I think we all do that. [00:10:00] We've lost people tragically.

It's almost an absurdity, but there's this muscle on that says, wait a minute, you should have stopped this. You were her older brother. It was definitive relationship. Yeah. I'm supposed to take care of you.

Jordan Harbinger: But as a grown man, even still, I'm sure it is, but it's gotta be intellectually, you know? Well, of course I couldn't be with her 24 7 and protect her 24 7, but it doesn't really absolve you of the one time that, you know, I would imagine you spend 50 years going, well, I should have gone over there.

Just over and over. Every a million things. Yeah, a million things.

Kelsey Grammer: And it doesn't need rational thinking to exist. It is simply how you feel. It's to be dealt with.

Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm. What happened to the killer?

Kelsey Grammer: He's still in jail. The guy that plunged a knife into her is still in jail. One of the other fellas that was involved is gone now, and I think the other one is gone as well.

Although the, I had been told he left early. He was gone earlier. So it was really three men who were responsible for her abduction and rape and, and murder. But the one [00:11:00] I guess really wanted to kill her.

Jordan Harbinger: I mean, these guys are just monsters. I know you're a man of faith. What do you make of this evil that.

Clearly real. I mean, you'd like to think like, oh, the people have reasons, or there's like, it's so rare. Or the this is, you wanna make a reason for it 'cause it's so senseless.

Kelsey Grammer: If you go to the framework of basic Christianity, and I'm a Christian, I was raised as a Christian scientist, which is a bit more metaphysical and a bit more esoteric in some ways.

There is good and evil and you just have to recognize that you can get sucked into one or the other, or drawn to one, sucked into another. I've certainly flirted with dangerous times in my life, times that maybe I was in over my head stuff that I was better off not knowing I felt I still needed to go through.

Maybe that's when you're open to maybe going a little darker and doing some things that hurt people. I feel pretty blessed that I didn't actually get there where I really destroyed anybody else or did something as vicious or violent as that. But you can lose focus. You can lose your life. You can lose your heart.

You can lose your soul. You can actually become [00:12:00] just a dark player. I think they went there. I think that's where they were. And in fact, they even craved it. Now, whether or not that's God or Satan, or I've heard some people talk about, you know, where was God during the Holocaust? Uh, and others have rebutted saying, well, I.

That makes you think man's a better idea than God? Certainly man was the creator of that particular energy. Was he in Satan's Thra? If you want to like reduce it to that kind of sort of metaphor. Yeah, maybe that's what's going on. I recently did a man's retreat with some guys, it's a Christian based recovery for warriors, basically operation recovered warrior and they allowed me to come because my common ground is not warfare.

When you realize what they're talking about is. Your common ground is warfare. 'cause we're born into warfare here that on this plane it's God and devil. Stuff and that's battle.

Jordan Harbinger: It's kind of scary to think about it that way. It is. I know. I've never thought about

Kelsey Grammer: it that way. They encouraged this idea [00:13:00] that Christ is the greatest warrior because his weapon is love and he is not a pussy.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Which I love. That's gonna be the clip. Christ is not a pussy. It goes through. Yeah.

Kelsey Grammer: I think that's, that just makes me think of this movie called We Were Soldiers. Mel Gibson's film, it's terrific. But Sam, um, I'm afraid, repeat again his last name right now, but he's, they have a scene together where Mel Gibson's worried about turning out like Custer.

And I don't wanna end up like that there. One major difference between you and Custer is Custer was a pussy. It's a, it's a wonderful moment. Yeah. Jesus is the power. If you fall into that place, start to understand that maybe there are some things going on here that are not part of you. And I think they were in that place to get back to it.

Jordan Harbinger: I hate to ask this question, but I think it's probably on a lot of people's minds. Imagine you're haunted by what her final moments were like. But isn't this somehow unfair? Because you have this wonderful person who you love and remember so much. You remember 18 [00:14:00] ish years of how wonderful and beautiful and fun they were, and then it's punctuated and possibly overshadowed by this horrible thing that was not done by them, but was done to them.

And it just seems unfair. That's one of the main things you remember about this person. Their victimhood, overshadows their life in some way, and it's probably somewhat of a struggle to cherish their life and not linger

Kelsey Grammer: on the loss. Right. I have been guilty of letting that be the final memory of her, the definitive memory, and I think the book was meant for me to change that.

And it did. It brought grief and celebration in line with each other. 'cause the grief was so overwhelming and the celebration didn't exist really. I'd lost that. The book helped him find it again, helped me find Karen again and to remember her, which I talk about, but to remember somebody and the grace of the good that they left you and the good that you had with them, that's more important than the grief.

The grief is forever. It's just there imprinted on you, but it's [00:15:00] only a crime if you allow the grief to overwhelm the imprint of the good. That's what the book's about.

Jordan Harbinger: And that seems like such a struggle. Of course, you built a life on commanding the room, your voice presence, your name, everything. It seems like it would be tough to handle those moments where none of that works on maybe your own demons.

Kelsey Grammer: Yeah, that was hard. Success has been great. I love my job. I love acting. I love it. 'cause it's like a discovery for me at least. It's a discovery of truth. That's a character, but it's still universal truth. It's a good play. Shakespeare being one of the best. If you have that opportunity to encounter what is a universal truth, you are supernatural, and that is a drug.

That's an amazing way to live one's life and to have it be punctuated by this overwhelming grief that's always lingering. Maybe the book was meant for me to be able to let that go, to diffuse it. Finally. But it was always there and it was always hard, and sometimes [00:16:00] it would creep into my performances, but only when it was appropriate for, I mean, I talk about the performance of rehearsing it when, when, um, Gertrude tells him about his sister's death, and I just, I just overwhelmed me.

It just, it was all Karen. It was all coming in. I didn't choose to do that. It just came. And that's what I mean, I guess, about that being open. That's when you know, my dog ran up on stage and started to lick my face, kiss me. She was such a wonderful animal. But yeah, this book has helped me come to terms with the fact that the grief was overwhelming, but not so that it would overwhelm the beauty of Karen.

Jordan Harbinger: You've described years of addiction and some self-destruction as a kind of punishment. Do you think you were trying to erase the grief or maybe even preserve it in some way?

Kelsey Grammer: Yeah, I think a good question. A pal of mine once said, he said, the cause of addiction, he says is unresolved grief. Interesting kind of holds up.

If you really examine almost any situation where someone's stuck in something, it's grief or whatever was enough for them. I've had some people look at me and say, you know, you haven't been through so much, [00:17:00] and I've thought to myself, yeah, okay. That may be true. Some people have it worse. It was enough for me.

Yeah. To mess me up.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. That's a weird thing to say to someone.

Kelsey Grammer: You fall in love with people and just know how to say terrible things, they're pushing those buttons. You just go like, that's a horrible thing to say to someone. Okay, you actually said that. Wow. I know, but I got through that one. That's fine.

I think what I was really trying to do was just feel as much as I could feel, and I mean, I, I did some wonderful crazy stuff. I loved the things I was doing on a big bender or out one night with a bunch of guys doing a lot of blow. Whatever it was you were doing, we were having fun, and then it just stopped being fun.

Jordan Harbinger: So it's, there's that weird switch moment, which I guess you only see in hindsight where you go, oh, this was no longer fun. Oh, shucks.

Kelsey Grammer: Yeah. Yeah. But I would never take it away. People said, how could you do that to yourself? You know what? I was still working. I was, sometimes people were bit annoyed that I seemed so messed up, but I always showed up for work.

Maybe a little tired, maybe a little bleary eyed. Sure. But

Jordan Harbinger: since this episode is about the tragic murder of someone's family member, I'm just gonna say, [00:18:00] I'm just gonna cut to the ad break. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Dell and Nvidia. AI is everywhere now from your inbox to your car, even how your coffee gets made and businesses, they are scrambling to keep up.

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Alright, now back to Kelsey Grammer. There's a writer from, I guess it was Cheers, Dan o' Shannon. That that right? Yeah. Dan. Yeah. So he said something like, [00:21:00] and this is from Wikipedia so God knows if this is accurate, but he would ooze into the studio as life all out of sorts. Jimmy, I guess maybe a director would say action and he would snap into Frazier and expound in this very a rude dialogue and be pitch perfect.

Then Jimmy would yell, cut, and he would ooze back into Kelsey Glaze over eyes half asleep, going through whatever he was going through. It was the most amazing transformation I've ever seen, which is a weird way to end that particular paragraph, but I think that it really shows, yeah, you are on, and that probably made it harder for people to go, Hey man, I.

Maybe take it easy.

Kelsey Grammer: Yeah, there were a couple of moments like that, which were great actually. I would usually take that to heart and give it my best shot sometime in the middle of Frazier. The same kind of thing came up in the show of Frazier after Cheers. And I dedicated myself to actually staying clean for quite a while, and I've never gone back to certain things, but I do still enjoy cocktail now, but my big one was cocaine and I haven't been near that.

This

Jordan Harbinger: is a tough one. My former producer, one of the things he said was, I've smoked and I've done cocaine. Smoking's harder to quit, but cocaine is right behind it. And he is like, one is [00:22:00] decidedly more fun than the other. Not to glorify it or anything, but there's a reason people do it. Listen,

Kelsey Grammer: there's, there's a reason you do it.

It makes you feel like a God and you are having fun and you're having fun with other people. So it has its own allure and its own fascination and appeal. And maybe that's part of the dark thing, I don't know. But, uh, always I. The back of my mind was that God thing. I grew up as a kid who believed in Jesus, and it would always come in there.

I would say, Hey, calm down. Relax a little bit. You're okay. We got this. And so it helped.

Jordan Harbinger: How does fame complicate recovery? It's hard enough when you're just a lawyer working your day job, but when people are like, oh, is that Kelsey Graham over there? Get a picture, I guess back then it wasn't Get out your phone and take a picture.

So you had that going for you? Yeah.

Kelsey Grammer: At least that helped. Is it? There's a great poem by Auden's poem too. I think it's called Moon Landing. It talks about how, although these three are maybe no less brave or braver than Hector, at least Hector was spared the indignity of being covered on [00:23:00] television.

That's kind of how it is. That's like I found out my sister was raped in a International Enquirer article. Oh, that's. Horrible and that was horrible and it, I never would've been there or even have it been written about if I weren't on television.

Jordan Harbinger: That's a good point.

Kelsey Grammer: You sacrifice your privacy once you become famous, even minimally famous.

Getting on Cheers was not making me famous. It's surviving. Cheers. Made me a little famous. I would say so, but staying, getting on and continuing is what really seals that, but it really hurt. That really hurt that day when I read that.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. That's probably one of the worst ways I can think of to find other people.

Tell you that millions of people have seen this.

Kelsey Grammer: The ironic connection to, for instance, the man who murdered my dad, his name was Arthur Niles, and then people say, Niles, is your brother on Frazier? I thought, yeah, that is weird. That is weird. I never even thought about it.

Jordan Harbinger: Not exactly a common name either,

Kelsey Grammer: but even strangers.

My son, Frazier's son is called [00:24:00] Freddie. The guy that killed my sister is Freddie. These are whatever you'd call 'em, circumstances, coincidences that seem to point at something. But you know what, to me it doesn't have the same value. That name doesn't mean that to me. Niles is my brother. This idiot, Arthur Niles, he got off for being insane and about five years later he tried to kill a judge, so he went back to jail.

So he was crazy. He belongs in jail, so, but he, there was something else going on. Sure. This was so funny. I was talking about when I did the film Jesus Revolution, I was promoting it in England. I started to talk about faith and why it was still important to me and it was going really well, and somebody said, oh, we've gotta go, we've gotta cut, we've gotta go to, uh, there's some breaking news and there was no breaking news.

Jordan Harbinger: The breaking news was the machine that's supposed to record has the tape clapping around like this. Yeah. I

Kelsey Grammer: was saying something good about faith, and I think they'd freaked out about it. Oh, oh man. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. So

Jordan Harbinger: do you think that Hollywood has become more or less forgiving of personal flaws than when you started your career?

Kelsey Grammer: [00:25:00] Gosh, probably a little less forgiving. Honestly, by virtue of surviving, as long as I have, I think there's a gentler wash for me now it's, it's more of a watercolor than a specific digital photograph. But let's face it, you know, somebody, it gets accused of something that they did 30 years ago and suddenly they're written off.

It's insanity. What's been going on? I mean, what? What? Nobody's human.

Jordan Harbinger: Especially if it's just an accusation, because you find out seemingly quite often later. I'm not totally sure or this didn't happen, or the person's counter shoes. Oh, I might

Kelsey Grammer: have misstated that. Yeah. Oh, oh. And destroyed somebody. Okay.

Yeah, it's a funny time, and maybe we should take broader views of things we hear from time to time. We should believe women who are telling the truth, we should believe the possibilities of things. But innocent until proven guilty is really important.

Jordan Harbinger: I will admit that. Like most people, my gut instinct is to go, oh my God, I knew it.

This guy, wait. And then I go, no, I, I didn't know anything. First of all, I know nothing about this person. It's different [00:26:00] when it happens to somebody you know, and you go, I can't believe he would do that. And then you go, I. Wait, I can't believe he would do that. But then you're tempted to go, maybe I'm just a bad judge of character.

Who am I to know? I don't know. Everything everyone's done in their life. I must have misjudged him. And then you're in this battle. And then if you find out three months later that it was completely fabricated and he was being extorted for money, you're like, oh gosh. Now I feel like a jerk for even giving it anything.

Credit any thought.

Kelsey Grammer: Yeah. We're on difficult time

Jordan Harbinger: that

Kelsey Grammer: way. I, we

Jordan Harbinger: move through that. AI is gonna make everything worse and better at the same time. Well, great

Kelsey Grammer: pictures. You know what's great about my kids? The latest round 12, 10, and eight, they always go, oh, that's ai.

Jordan Harbinger: Isn't that amazing? And I go, how do you know?

I

Kelsey Grammer: know. And they dismiss it almost immediately, which is really smart because they understand people are gonna try to put out things that aren't true and they've already tuned into that.

Jordan Harbinger: Doesn't it make you feel old? Like I'll be online and I'll go, wow, that's impressive. And people on Reddit or whatever will go, that's ai.

And I go, okay, I'm 45. How do you know? And they go, the lighting is too perfect. Or like, look at the hands. And I go. They look like hands. No, they don't. That [00:27:00] finger is bent in a weird way that's like nobody would hold naturally. And you go, yeah, you know what? You're right. So now I'm looking at hands. But by the time you figure that out, AI is like, gotta make the hands better.

Gotta make the light better. We're fixing the hands, right? Make the lighting worse. So it's just like this rat race between the human brain, which mine is just done. Mine goes, that's a photo

Kelsey Grammer: AI so far. I know we're getting to a GI, which is self-generated I guess, but yeah, AI is programmed by people.

Crosstalk: Yeah.

Kelsey Grammer: And so what they know basically is what. People wanted it to know. And so you have to be really careful about that as well, because there's just certain, there's leanings. Whenever you program something, that person has ideas that they want engendered in other people. So you gotta be careful. But I am careful.

And what's funny is it doesn't make me feel old. It makes me just feel, I'm trying to think because I, I like being a dinosaur.

Crosstalk: Okay. I mean, I like it because

Kelsey Grammer: I know that the brain I've got was actually generated by the, the toil that I've put in. I haven't been just plugged into something and then told, this is what you need to think.

I actually arrived at a lot of this stuff by virtue of hard [00:28:00] work.

Jordan Harbinger: That's a interesting perspective. Yeah, that's a good point.

Kelsey Grammer: So I like being over here. I like that one. I have learn

Jordan Harbinger: stuff manually. I've learned, I

Kelsey Grammer: got whatever dad through the plasticine, all on my own, you

Jordan Harbinger: know, that's in the snow uphill both ways.

That's that version for your and my generation. I had to go to school, underst, learn how to do things right. Okay. Whatever man, whatever. Dad, I learned how to do this because I plugged my brain into the matrix. Whatever. I'm curious. You said that Karen's murder sent you into this spiral, but it also gave your career a structure.

I wonder when did performing become some kind of therapy, or was it a way, in some ways to avoid healing? No, I think it's

Kelsey Grammer: a devotion to healing. I got to live my healing. I've got to focus on things. Having the. Personal sort of, do you remember there's a book called Stranger in the Strange Land that as an expression, I, I think LAN's done it.

He's got the company called GROK. It's called Gring. So you would gr something, you got something in a profound way. Mm-hmm. And that was coined in [00:29:00] that book, strange In the Strange Land by Robert Hindin. Very popular in the seventies. Really positive, wrote songs about it, but we don't really remember. But I do.

But that communion with. Tragedy that I had, that familiarity with my grandfather dying young, my father getting shot, my sister being murdered in the horrible way she was. It gave me an understanding of something. That's the human journey. The human experience is what I'm good at and I have, because of what I've lived, there's a kind of almost authority to it.

So that as an actor, I would just uncover that and bring it to it, and I know that was probably helpful. That's what's the irony of it is that the suffering was helpful for making something genuine or authentic. You can't fool people as an actor. I mean, maybe AI can almost get there eventually, but really great acting is always gonna be spontaneous and connected to the human experience.

And I was [00:30:00] given this breadths and depth of experience that would come through, and I think it, and it gave me a sense of authority.

Jordan Harbinger: That's an interesting way to look at it for sure. Yeah, that makes sense. The broader your life experience, for better or for worse. Yeah. The more connected you can be to different emotions.

Yeah, that's exactly. Or whatever situations. What's a lie people told you about grief or that you thought you knew about grief that you believed for too long

Kelsey Grammer: time heals all wounds.

Jordan Harbinger: I literally wrote, I was like, I wonder if he's gonna say that because that is. Something I think a lot of people find out is not necessarily true.

Just, uh, just ain't true.

Kelsey Grammer: Yeah, it's still, you abide with it, but it's not going away.

Jordan Harbinger: They don't think, oh, my dad's such a legend, a

Kelsey Grammer: legendary screw

Jordan Harbinger: up. What percentage is it like, oh, my dad's pretty awesome, and what percentage of it is like, he won't stop quoting Shakespeare dinner? I'm not inviting any friends of.

Kelsey Grammer: I do try to spare them too much stuff. Yeah. Unless it's, it's just, it's such a poignant moment, such an ironic alignment that I say, I gotta tell you this line. So I don't do it too often, but once in a while, it all sits them down and read them from Shakespeare.

Jordan Harbinger: It's funny to [00:31:00] think about, all dads think I'm gonna be the cool dad because I have this cool life and career and da da, and then it's never, I'm so uncool.

Kelsey Grammer: I mean, it's like my older kids, I'm still trying to figure out what they actually think of me. My two older daughters, we have a pretty good relationship and then we don't have a good relationship and then we have a great relationship. It's just whatever it is. I'm not cool.

Jordan Harbinger: No. One day you'll be surrounded by family, hopefully in a joyous time, and they'll go, you're not as much of a lamo as I thought.

You know? It'll be like the happiest moment of your life, right?

Crosstalk: Yeah.

Kelsey Grammer: Uh, it's my 8-year-old James actually was talking to me by the pool two years ago in upstate and we're sitting having a nice conversation about how to do a certain thing or whatever, and he stops for saying, he says. You are all right. I like spending time with you.

God. God bless you. You're not as cool as Captain under fans. Thank you. So I was SpongeBob. You're okay. So that was actually, that was a real highlight for me.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh man. I can relate. Yeah. My son is five and he's. You're so cool and I'm like, oh, soak it up. You're not gonna believe that. [00:32:00] Bless you, because it's not happening forever.

All my friends who have older kids are like, just no. Seriously, take a mental snapshot of this because you will never hear that. Oh

Kelsey Grammer: no.

Jordan Harbinger: About three years. You spent decades as an actor from Frazier Crane to intense dramas, Broadway musicals. At what point did you feel like I'm successful? Genuinely in,

Kelsey Grammer: oh yeah, that was about two or three years ago.

Really? Yeah. Yeah. Maybe I'm slow. I mean, you know, I probably am. Okay. But I was sitting somewhere and somebody, you could tell that their regard for me was genuine and the guy just said, you're a legend. That's a really weird thing to be told, but, and when I started to think about it and I thought, I'm good at what I do, and okay, alright, it's time.

Maybe I just put away this self-effacing crap and just said, yes, I'm good at what I do and I've earned my place here. That's a pretty decent feeling. That's okay.

Jordan Harbinger: I can imagine. But do you think you would've believed or internalized that 10 years ago if somebody said it? Or would you think this guy's [00:33:00] buttering me up?

Kelsey Grammer: I probably just would've thought I, I'm not there yet. Hmm. I don't know. Maybe by virtue of the same thing that's fed that myth is it takes a lot of time. Takes a long time to finally say, yeah, okay. I did something.

Jordan Harbinger: Did that feeling match up with what you imagined being successful would feel like?

Kelsey Grammer: No. No, it still doesn't.

What's really fun, I'm gonna reprise the role of Beast, right? In the next job I do. We're going to London in June to shoot the next Avengers film.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Am Were we allowed to keep that? That's, I didn't, that's not secret. It's been announced yet. Amazing.

Kelsey Grammer: I wanted to play that part again for a long time. It was a personal, sort of like tragedy to me, like yeah, 20 years ago I played it in X-Men.

The last stand, I think it was called, and we went to Ken Film Festival. I chartered a boat and everything I felt I'm gonna celebrate this moment. Yeah. And it was really cool. And then they said to me, we've got this whole new direction. We're going in the franchise, and I'm thinking, this is great. Yeah. And they said, we're going back in time.

You're not in it. Ah, that is so could've led. Messed up. Yeah. It [00:34:00] could've led with that. Right. So. When recently they released the Marvels, the film, the Marvels? I guess it did. Okay. I mean, I don't know. You know, the response was good, but the Response to Beast, when he showed up, they called and said, come on down, let's shoot something.

Do you mind doing one of those like Easter egg things that they do at the, in the credits? Oh,

Jordan Harbinger: like a cameo, like Stanley Lee used to do? Yeah.

Kelsey Grammer: Yeah. So there I am, and the response was really good. They called me in a little while later and said. We want you to do the role again. Nice. So maybe that actually made me feel like I finally made it.

That's, it's

Jordan Harbinger: so funny. That is is a great character for you as well. 'cause it's like this sort of like super tough guy, but then his hobby is reading books. He intellectual. He he's my guy. You're right. That's dad. He's right

Kelsey Grammer: up my alley.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. Yeah. That's super cool. I am, uh, I'm excited for that. Chelsea and I are gonna take a quick cocaine break.

We'll be right back.

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Now for the rest of my conversation with Kelsey Grammer. Most actors struggle to hit any breakout role. I mean, that's the name of the game, right? You. Made a few characters, but namely one, Dr. Frazier Crane that spans generations. Again, not to put the dinosaur label back on you, but No, it's okay. What did you do differently from others in your field, do you think, to make that happen?

Or is that kind of a luck function?

Kelsey Grammer: I think there is kind of a luck function that maybe somewhat providential at the same time, it's just orden. Again, I'm going back. He always believed in luck, but his definition of luck meant that you were aligned with a spiritual energy that was. For you, meaning God, he was a Christian, but most people don't really know that about him.

He was one of that little group in um, Oxford who decided they were gonna prove that Jesus didn't exist and then they all became Christians. Interesting. Yeah. It's really, wow. Yeah, it's fascinating. But CS Lewis being one of 'em, and Tolkien and Auden, and it's fascinating. I read something, but CS Lewis just recently says, you [00:39:00] don't have a soul.

You are a soul. You have a body. That is something, yeah, those are

Jordan Harbinger: great brand ambassadors for Absolutely Christianity for

Kelsey Grammer: Faith. Yeah. It's really huge. But this idea of divine providential luck where you peg away at something and as he says, peg away at honestly every day. Perhaps by the time death pounces his stumping question, I shall just be beginning to understand the difference between daylight and moonlight

Jordan Harbinger: and these guys are like on another level.

Yeah. What's the difference between playing a character? People merely like and a character people wanna watch for literally decades?

Kelsey Grammer: The thing that Frazier did, this happened the first time I read the sides. I went by the Gulf of Western building. Which is now the Trump Tower or one of 'em or whatever.

And it has a little globe out in front on Columbus Circle.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, that,

Kelsey Grammer: yeah. That's in every movie that, that's, that's where Paramount used to have its offices. They were owned by the Gulf and Western Company at the time. So he went, it's called the Gulf and Western Building. So I went upstairs and they handed me these sides, bits of a scene, and uh, I read them and I [00:40:00] went and visited my buddy Stanley and Stan said, what do you think of this thing?

I said, the key to this character is that he loves her completely with his whole heart. That was the key to Frazier. His love for Diane was such a first for him and an intellectual guy who was completely in the thrall of love, surrender to it, complete surrender to it where his own identity was lost as a result, and that is what has defined him, that ability to love deeply, wholly in an instant, and be mistaken and make a mistake.

Watching him unravel because watching Frazier unravels what's been fun. Watching him not be in a relationship was what makes him fun. Having them not work out, but he soldiers on with this optimism, which as I described this once to my friend Brad, who's in the book, he finally said, well, Kels, that's you.

I guess this character is me in a lot of ways.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:41:00] Sure. All the best characters are just. A couple degrees to the left or the right of the actual actor, like Robert Downey Jr. And Ironman. Everyone's like, oh, he's such a good actor. And it's, if you know him in real life, like he's maybe not a billionaire engineer, but the rest of it pretty much like nails it.

Yeah. When younger actors come to you for advice, what's the thing that maybe they don't expect you to say, but that they need to hear?

Kelsey Grammer: I'm not sure. I've always tried to encourage 'em. I never say that you're on a bad path because it's the best thing in the world. It's just not necessarily gonna lead to riches or anything else like that.

But it's a beautiful way to spend one's life and one's career as an avocation and vocation at the same time. But I always tell 'em, if you wanna be an actor act, go act somewhere. I've always told him, you're not gonna get an agent till you don't need one. Yeah, that's just the truth. That's just the way it is.

Jordan Harbinger: Even in the podcasting industry. Of course now

Kelsey Grammer: once you're doing good, they're fine. Why would I give you 10% at this point? But that's really important and just, it means you've gotta get in the game. You gotta go to New York or go where you're gonna go. Any town has a a way to find somewhere to act, volunteer to play, [00:42:00] be a fireman, and go do a play at night.

Whatever you have to do, get through it. I did. Demolition works, construction work. I mean I did, that's a funny things just Kelsey

Jordan Harbinger: Grammar out there with a sledgehammer quoting Shakespeare and CS Lewis and the guys are like, turn the jackhammer up louder. I sick of listening to this guy. I'm tired

Kelsey Grammer: of this crap, this guy.

But yeah, you must immerse yourself in whatever that is. Hopefully. The universe responds. It will try to,

Jordan Harbinger: uh, yeah. One way or another. I suppose you've been very open about your political views, support for Donald Trump. I wonder how do you navigate public perception in an industry that often leans differently, but it seems like that's a minefield in Hollywood.

It's like, oh, you're the guy who's on the other side of the aisle.

Kelsey Grammer: I think people have always, I know it doesn't fit with a narrative, and I hate the word, use the word narrative way too used. There's a compulsion almost at this point to just say, anybody that thinks Trump's doing a good job is stupid or a fascist.

I don't come across as any of those things. I'm a reasoned, reasonable guy. I [00:43:00] think that the movement, the focus, the direction of what Trump is involved in, his ego aside and all the stuff that you want to just latch onto and hate is more aligned with what I believe America should be doing. It should be taken care of itself.

I'm looking after people and not taxing so much, and there's a whole bunch of stuff that comes along for the ride. But prosperity is generated by protecting the homeland. So these are things that I actually align with and uh, I don't do it in a way that's belligerent or hateful to people, I hope. Are they hateful to some of the things?

I believe maybe they are. I'm also a guy who's very cautious about abortion and stuff like that because I've had life taken from me. Destroyed right in front of me and had some difficult circumstances. Do I believe that you should outlaw abortion? No, but I do think there should be some limits and then some reasonable approach to the idea that this is a life and it's precious.

Because in my experience, the most precious things to me were the things that [00:44:00] lived and then that life was taken. And so that's where I am.

Jordan Harbinger: I cherry picked this, so forgive me, but in a 2016 interview with The Guardian, you said, the person I admire most is Vladimir Putin because he's so comfortably who he is.

So that may have aged like milk, and I'm wondering what you think. I

Kelsey Grammer: dunno. Now I remember why I said it. At the time I was actually considering trying

Jordan Harbinger: to plan. It's funny you should say that. I was just gonna say Kelsey Grammer as Vladimir Putin. I can see it. Yeah. No, it just seemed to me like that would

Kelsey Grammer: be a really interesting guy to play.

Anyway. He'd be an interesting guy to play. Fascinating guy to play 2016, that's when I started thinking maybe I would like to play Vladimir Putin. He's a fascinating guy. And what is the quotation that said that I said he's the most, it just

Jordan Harbinger: said because he's so comfortably who he is.

Kelsey Grammer: Yeah. I think he doesn't make apology for who he is, and I think that's an interesting thing to play.

I don't think he's a. Nice guy. I'm not saying, oh, I, I admire him so much. Uhhuh. But I admire someone who is so comfortably in themselves and he is one of those creatures. Interesting to play. A guy like that. I used to love [00:45:00] when I'd see him on his horseback with his shirt off.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. That's the famous, what is his thing?

Kelsey Grammer: Yeah. He doesn't look that good. I'm sorry. And I thought, but he obviously must think he does. So somewhere in that, how do you get to that place? And I admire a brain that goes there. It wasn't meant to be some shocking, alarming alignment with a lunatic. Is he a lunatic? I don't know. Is he a crafty, political, maybe fascistic mindset?

I don't know. I think he loves Russia. I think he wants it to be what it once was. Is he a zealot? Yeah, maybe. Maybe he's a zealot. Which is interesting. If, if you think about. Zealots can usually be defeated. Because they don't see clearly.

Jordan Harbinger: I definitely agree with that. That's a really good point. And I think you're onto something.

Kelsey Grammer: So anyway, but I'm still fascinated by him and I'd be interested in playing him, but what he is perpetuating in Ukraine and all that, this whole Ukraine thing is a very dodgy situation.

Jordan Harbinger: It is a giant mess that if we had three more hours, we could, we could certainly dive in. Yeah.

Kelsey Grammer: On [00:46:00] its face, it does seem there's a horrible thing going on, but there's also just the history there of being used as a bank account for deception.

It's a really bad thing that was going on there. A lot of money laundering, all kinds of people, all kinds of political people and all kinds of governments. Maybe that's all part of getting cleaned up now. Maybe that's what's really happening, but there's a human price that goes along with it is horrible.

The devastation is just insane. When Trump does talk about rubble, it gets rubble. He understands construction. He actually really does. Rebuilding that kind of stuff is really hard and yet important. He gets the value of real estate.

Jordan Harbinger: You said Every interaction, every person who we interact with and meet and talk to is working with us together on a soul level, working toward a higher intention.

Each person is a pathway to our highest good. What do you mean by that? And is this podcast perhaps the exception

Kelsey Grammer: That was actually, uh, my understanding of what this thing, radical forgiveness is a concept of radical forgiveness. To [00:47:00] see that even in the most tragic set of circumstances or even hostile.

Circumstances, that person may be guiding you to your higher good, to a better person than you are right now. And that's been hard for me. That's my description of it was basically based on how difficult it was to kind of embrace that. But now there is a kind of wisdom in hindsight that says, well, yeah, maybe that guy lifted me in some way, lifted me to another level and understanding, and then.

Fulfillment and in fight. I've been a fighter. I've fought pretty hard through a lot of these things, and actually I like the fight, so it's a weird value. But for instance, the man that came into our house, I speak about him, Bob, when we were still teenagers and my grandmother was spending time with him.

He was a real challenge and he was a real jerk, but maybe he made me strong. I mean, I ended up throwing him out of the house one day. I was 16 years old. I'm lifting a grown man and I ejected him from my own. [00:48:00]

Jordan Harbinger: That must have been, it was badass feeling at the time, especially, it was

Kelsey Grammer: surreal, but it was also like, I had to do that.

Would I have done it if he was a great guy?

Jordan Harbinger: No, maybe not. What do you want most people to remember? You for both as an actor and as a person?

Kelsey Grammer: I'll tell you what I, I usually answer to this question. It's borrowed from Gregory Pec. I heard him once accept an award and I loved him. So he said, my ultimate goal, OSI, is to say that anytime a person spent.

Watching my work was time well spent. I'd like to live for that, but now having done Karen, I'd like to think they'd remember my sister and remember Karen and remember the love we had, and I think that'd make me really happy. In fact, I had a dream the other night where I thought to myself, wouldn't it be cool if people remember Karen longer than they remember me?

What's with the eyedrops in the refrigerator, by the

Jordan Harbinger: way?

Kelsey Grammer: Oh, it feels amazing.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah,

Kelsey Grammer: it's, it sounds awesome. [00:49:00] Dry it. I'm going, if you can train yourself to look at the drop as it comes in, it just sounds like

Jordan Harbinger: when you wrote about that, I was like, this is sounds. Glorious. Can't even find the word.

Kelsey Grammer: It's, it's a, it's like, thank you.

In the morning especially, you wake up

Jordan Harbinger: and you're, oh, you're wiping those little crusty thing and you're just like, ding. It's such, you just gotta be like the first sip of coffee. Yeah.

Kelsey Grammer: It is fantastic for your, it's exactly that.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. No, I can't, I, I love it. I love that idea. Cool. I. Kelsey Grammer. Thank you very much.

Thanks, man. Thanks. Wonderful. Thank you so much. All things Kelsey Grammer will be in the show notes on the website@jordanharbinger.com. Advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show, all at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Also, our newsletter wee bit wiser.

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