1218: Grandson Is Feral and Puts In-Laws in Peril | Feedback Friday

1218: Grandson is Feral and Puts In-Laws In Peril | Feedback Friday

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Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with feedback Friday producer the convection oven circulating these heat waves of wisdom around this toasty furnace of life conundrum, Gabriel Mizrahi. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, investigative journalists, economic hitman, undercover agents, former jihadis. This week we had Greg Luciano from Fire on Free Speech and why it's important even if you disagree with the speech that is being freed or currently being unfree.

We also had Evan Osnos on yachts and Why Rich people love them, hide money on them, add missile launchers to them and more. We also had a skeptical Sunday on human trafficking, so a lot of, a lot of cheery topics this week, but go back and listen. Very interesting, important and [00:01:00] apropos stuff if you haven't heard those yet.

On Fridays though, we take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious sound bites, and generally dance on the graves of all the villains who send our wonderful listeners running into our inbox. I hear we got our work cut out for us, so let's get right to it today. Gabe, what is the first thing outta the mailbag?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm engaged to the love of my life. Keith. Keith has two siblings, a brother close in age and a half-Sister Julia, who's much older. Their mother, Kate is the shared biological parent. Keith's dad. David raised Julia as his own, as her dad wasn't in the picture. Julia is a piece of work for a few years in her youth.

She stayed with Kate's parents. Based on what I've heard about their abuse, that probably didn't help her develop good mental health. Her behaviors are impulsive, violent, manipulative, and cruel. A couple years ago, she got triggered enough that she threatened her wife and ended up shooting herself in the stomach.

During an argument, Kate and David took her in while [00:02:00] she healed, shot herself in the stomach. In the stomach, dude, ouch. How do you even do that? I'm trying to imagine yeah, how that went down. I

Jordan Harbinger: don't, I have no idea, but that is terrifying. So Julia, Julia's going through it to put it mildly damn.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Ouch. Julia has two sons and the younger son, Michael now 32 years old, was terribly abused as a young child.

Unfortunately, he's continued the cycle of violence in his adulthood. When Michael was 16, he was arrested and Julia said she was done with him. The state could have him not exactly. Parent of the year. Yes.

Jordan Harbinger: Right. And our friend here is engaged to Keith.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. And Kate and David are Keith and Julia's parents.

Okay. So she goes on. Kate and David are now in their late seventies and they're kind loving people to a fault who taken any strays they can naturally. They adopted Michael when he was 16 and his mom gave him up. So Keith and his brother grew up with Michael, like their younger brother. There were several occasions when the boys and David got chest to chest with Michael after he got triggered and [00:03:00] aggressive.

Usually they can talk him down, but not in recent years. Kate and David have been unwavering in their love and support of Michael. They bought him a car, which is now totaled, offered repeatedly to pay for therapy, which he refused and lodged and fed him for much of his life. He's been in and outta jail for domestic violence, which has happened in Kate and David's home.

He seems especially triggered by women, which could stem from Julia's abuse

Jordan Harbinger: that is so sad and horrifying.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I've been on the receiving end of intimate partner violence and sharing space with him and experiencing his aggression myself have been triggering for me too. For example, last Christmas I made cinnamon rolls at their house and when it was time to eat he said, Hey, somebody bring me a fork.

And since everyone else in the house was cleaning and serving themselves, I said, admittedly frustrated. They're just over here. You can come grab one. He exploded at me cursing and calling me names for insulting him. I was terrified when I told Kate and David about this [00:04:00] interaction. They said they had to avoid confrontation with him and it wouldn't be good to bring it up.

We decided we weren't safe around him and wouldn't invite him to the wedding. All feedback triggers Michael and drinking exacerbates these struggles. During an argument a year ago, he punched a hole in Kate and David's wall and shoved David. Then a month ago, a drunk Michael called David to pick him up.

He did, and they argued in the car. Michael demanded to be let out, which David did. Michael then demanded to be left alone, which David resisted. Then Michael threatened to pull a gun on him because he is a felon on parole possession of a firearm as prohibited. But Kate and David are aware that he has one.

So David took the threat seriously. Got in the car and left. When Michael got home, he started another fight with David and Kate grabbing Kate's wrists and saying some scathing and false things about everyone in the family. David defended his wife verbally, and Michael exploded. He pushed David to the ground, got on top of him and beat him.

[00:05:00] Fracturing two of David's ribs.

Jordan Harbinger: And this is an old man, right? So this is extra horrifying. It's his own grandson that did this to him. Yes.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: I hate this. I hate hearing this.

Gabriel Mizrahi: David is now hospitalized and says it was the quote unquote last straw. They told Michael he has one month to get out and he couldn't come back, or they'll press charges.

Jordan Harbinger: I was gonna say something earlier when it was like, and this was the last straw. And I was like, yeah. And then I was like, wait a minute. Hasn't this guy, isn't this guy a full grown ass man who acts like a toddler, gimme a fork, and then explodes, there's a straw factory somewhere on this man's property, and then again, get out in 30 days maybe if we still stick to our guns.

It's like, yeah, we're done now you can stay with us, the people you physically brutalized for a month, and then we're done. But you know, unless we waver, which we always have throughout the course of your whole life, which is why you're still a piece of shit, even though you're a grownup.

Gabriel Mizrahi: This is insane.

Just hold on. Okay. Michael agreed upon discovering that the DA was pressing charges. Anyway, Michael screamed. I might never come back and stormed outta the house.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:06:00] Oh, darn. Take your bullshit elsewhere, Michael. I might never come back and terrorize you. How's that? Grandpa and grandma?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Then Kate and David hired a lawyer for him and are now co-signing on an apartment for him to get him out.

This is just textbook enabling. Michael came back to the house. This kind of thing has happened maybe three to four times after an incident. It's becoming clear to me that this is a dangerous cycle. With his record, he has a hard time finding jobs, and with his behavioral issues, he has a hard time keeping them and housing.

It's now the end of that final month. We've talked about this on the phone with Keith's folks a couple of times, urging them to get out of the house, get therapy, and move permanently so they can escape this danger, but they're stubborn and refuse to give up on him. They think if they kick Michael out and move, he'll end up in jail or dead or both.

They might be right.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, they might be right and it's not their fault at that point. This is Michael's problem. Now, wait, how old is this guy again?

Gabriel Mizrahi: 32.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, this guy is 32. I understand he has [00:07:00] problems. I feel terrible for the trauma he's been through, but my God, at what point do you take some freaking personal responsibility?

It might not be your fault that you're screwed up, but for God's sake, it's your responsibility to do something about it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I understand Michael has been through hell, but at this point I am worried for Kate and David's lives and so is Keith. Yes. It's also a huge damper on what's supposed to be a joyous moment in our lives as we get married and start trying for our own family.

We had a trip planned in a week to go see Kate and David. Now they're telling us not to come because it's not safe for us to be around Michael, and if he finds out that they snuck out to see us, he'll have an episode. They keep saying we're so close, he's almost out. But I've heard that before and I confirm that they have no plan in place to make it different this time.

They want us to stay out of it and handle it themselves, but I don't believe they have the skills to handle him. We've brought up concepts like codependence and strong boundaries, but Kate and David don't budge. They had also offered to move nearby and help us raise our future child for the first year of their life, [00:08:00] which was what would make it possible for us to have a kid.

Now, I doubt that support will be available, which is even more devastating. We're hurt the cherry on top. Kate and David pressured us to invite Julia to the wedding because they were afraid of her enraged reaction if she wasn't included. Sound familiar? Is there anything at all we can do? How can we respect their boundaries but also do the right thing?

Signed looking for a way in to express our chagrin that our family won't begin to remove this dangerous kin.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. This is a mess. Gabe. We've heard versions of this story many times over the years. Unstable, dangerous, problematic family member won't leave the house or won't leave people alone. And it always breaks my heart.

It's just, it's awful to watch somebody you're related to suffer like this and it's so hard to draw a line and cut them off, especially when they've been victims of abuse. I wonder if David and Kate. Probably feel partly responsible for sending Julia to live with Kate's parents, where it sounds like the abuse began [00:09:00] and then everything they're doing now is kind of informed by that guilt.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, that would make a lot of sense. I'm sure that's playing a big role, but I don't think it's the only thing going on here.

Jordan Harbinger: Clearly, I mean, we don't know David and Kate, we're not hearing their side of this story, but my sense is that these are highly accommodating people, extremely forgiving people.

They're vulnerable, fearful, confused, maybe naive. They're ill-equipped to see the situation clearly and protect themselves, and so I feel for them to a point. But like I said, at what point do you go, okay, this person is dangerous, they do not deserve our support.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Right? At what point do you go? Even if we have good reasons to keep helping also, our help clearly is not doing any good.

So why continue?

Jordan Harbinger: Is it when somebody pulls a gun on you? Is it when they beat you up in your own home and send you to the hospital? If you're not pulling back at that point, there's something seriously wrong.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, also, this is the family way, right? They're now doing it with Julia on the wedding, afraid of her reaction if she isn't included.

Jordan Harbinger: Right. I mean, it's, this is so weird because it's like we're gonna accommodate the worst people in the family at the expense of everybody [00:10:00] else who's not completely terrible.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, I don't think they're uncommon in that way. No. I think this is how a lot of families end up behaving. Yeah,

Jordan Harbinger: I think you're right.

It's basically, as long as Kate and David are more afraid of Michael and Julia than they are willing to protect themselves and do right by the whole family, frankly, this situation is just gonna continue and possibly get worse. But as we talk about all the time, Gabe, it's always an interesting question whether we're trying to protect other people or protect ourselves.

They're afraid of provoking Michael. They're afraid of enraging Julia. But that's also a way of saying they're afraid of feeling what it would feel like themselves to finally stand up to these people

Gabriel Mizrahi: and what it would mean for them to admit that they weren't able to save Michael. Yeah. Like, okay, so you, you remember that depressed, suicidal brother we heard about a few weeks ago?

He was living with mom, he was getting involved with those dodgy people online. Mm-hmm. We had talked about the fact that once that family goes, okay, final straw, you're on your own, or, we're done trying. You have to tell us when you're ready for help. And you know, in a way. Give up on him from their point of [00:11:00] view, then a new process begins.

And I imagine in this family it would not just be immediate relief.

Jordan Harbinger: No. It would be sadness, anger, embarrassment, regret, more guilt, all of it. Which like we seem

Gabriel Mizrahi: to be talking about a lot lately, the continued effort with Michael. It could be a way to avoid,

Jordan Harbinger: I think that's right. So if you guys have any hope of getting through to your in-laws, I think it's gonna be in helping them confront that stuff, the stuff that's making it impossible for them to finally draw a line and protect themselves.

When all evidence points to the fact that this is the only rational move and helping them see if they're willing to see it, they might not. Helping them see that not only are they enabling Michael, not only are they prolonging his pain and chaos, not only are they exposing themselves and everyone else in this family to the moods and threats from this guy, they're also playing out a very old dynamic.

A dynamic that probably spans generations of accommodating an extremely dysfunctional person to put it mildly, [00:12:00] because it seems easier than standing up for themselves. So the question becomes why? Why does that seem easier? What is it about drawing boundaries with Michael or putting some conditions around their relationship with him?

What is it like maybe that he has to be in therapy or he, they have to meet in a public space, whatever. It's, what is it about that that is so hard? When is enough enough? If it's not getting your ribs fractured by this kid you took in and tried to help in your own stink in kitchen, what red line are you waiting for?

You waiting for him to shoot someone? Are you waiting for him to kill someone when you have a heart attack from the stress? Maybe it's absurd.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Really, those are the right questions. I am not convinced from this letter that they are really equipped to have that conversation, but they have to try. Here's the thing, if you and Keith have this conversation with his parents, you have to really ask these questions.

You know, they can't be too leading. They can't just be arguments in question form for cutting Michael off because you've had that conversation with them and [00:13:00] they can't seem to get there intellectually. I think they know that they need to emotionally, they're in a bind. So if you ask these questions, you're gonna have to be very patient.

You're gonna have to probe, you're gonna have to suspend your judgment and opinion and really invite them to reflect on these things with you and dig into this stuff in a deeper way. And that might take some time,

Jordan Harbinger: which to be fair, I mean that's a, it's a tall order

Gabriel Mizrahi: for

Jordan Harbinger: these people.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's a very tall order for these folks.

But she's asking how can we respect their boundaries, but also do the right thing? You know? Maybe a helpful question is, what is the right thing here? Really?

Jordan Harbinger: I think she would say, get Kate and David to cut Michael off and protect themselves before it's too late.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's the ideal outcome, of course. But the right thing, in my view, is more of a process and a position than a specific outcome.

I think it might be just saying to Kate and David, essentially, we are deeply worried about you. We are deeply concerned about Michael. We do not feel that you are responding to this situation in a healthy or responsible [00:14:00] way. And perhaps you have your reasons for that, and we'd like to talk about them, but we have to go on record and tell you this is not okay.

It's not okay for you. It's not okay for us, for Michael, for anyone in the family. This can't continue this way. We're here to help you figure out why it's been so hard to put some distance or some conditions around your relationship with him. We're here to help you find, you know, a fairer and safer relationship with Michael, but you have to want that too.

Or there's only so much we can do, and if you don't want that, then that will be very painful and very scary for us. And it might mean that we have to go our own way with Michael and let you live with the consequences of this decision to continue enabling him on your own.

Jordan Harbinger: Damn. Yeah, I mean, that's basically it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: My real point is that the right thing might include knowing that you did and said everything possible so that you don't have any regret or guilt about, you know, not intervening strongly enough when you could have, because you might not be able to guarantee the result you want.

Jordan Harbinger: Good point. 'cause ultimately, this is also Kate and [00:15:00] David's life.

They might be in their seventies, they might be vulnerable, but they're still their own people with their own agency. If this is the relationship they want to have with Michael, if they understand the consequences and they wanna continue, there is a timeline where our friend here just kind of has to let them do that.

If no amount of conversation or pressure will change their minds or their behavior,

Gabriel Mizrahi: which I just wanna acknowledge is not only heartbreaking, but could be extremely distressing to know that they are choosing to let this kid stay in their home when he might seriously injure or kill them. That is the reality of the situation if they don't want to change.

Jordan Harbinger: That said, I would keep looking for ways to keep your in-laws safe and hold Michael accountable from a distance. You can still check in on them. You can still check in with friends and family and neighbors, see if they can keep an eye on things while you guys live across the country. You can call the police when you learn of Michael violating the conditions of his parole, threatening violence becoming violent.

I hate to give this guy more legal trouble, but him being locked up for a little while could have some benefits. A guy like this [00:16:00] belongs in jail. I hate to say it. He really does. He's not gonna get therapy. He doesn't wanna help himself. He belongs in prison. It's inevitable that he ends up there. It's just a matter of who he hurts.

It could give Kate and David some peace, right? If he's locked up as well, some distance to see the situation more clearly. And it could give Michael more opportunities to realize that his life is out of control and he needs to seek help. Although my hopes for that are pretty low. I assume he just blames everyone else for all of his problems, which is why we're still here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So you make a fair point, Jordan, but I do just want to make some room for the fact that we are hearing from a very troubled, traumatized man. Mm-hmm. And I kind of move between these two positions when it comes to somebody like this. Yes. He's 32. Yes. He needs to take responsibility. And I don't think somebody would be doing this stuff if they weren't really hurting, if there weren't something really wrong with them.

And if you were abused, and we don't even know the details, but it sounds pretty bad. By a mother who herself experienced some really horrible trauma in her life. You have a tough go at it. You know, [00:17:00] in life we're coming down pretty hard on him, and I get in, we should to a degree, but I just wanna make a little bit of room for that, that this kid desperately needs support.

But this also is a good reason that Kate and David need to rethink some things because what they're doing is not helping him address his trauma either. I wanna touch on one other thing in our letter, which is this point about how Kate and David offered to, um, move closer to them and help them raise their baby for the first year.

The first thing I wanna say is I'm sorry that that might not work out anymore. I'm sorry for you guys, and I'm sorry for them because it might mean that they don't get to be grandparents, which would be probably really wonderful for them. And the fact that that won't work out is very much the problem.

They are choosing to enable Michael, a violent adult over supporting you guys, potentially new parents who could create a whole new exciting chapter for them, sucks.

Jordan Harbinger: And hey, maybe that would be helpful to bring into your conversation with them. Maybe they don't even realize how much they're missing out by prioritizing Michael.

Maybe they need to feel the costs of this more vividly somehow.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:18:00] Yeah, that's a good idea. Although, you know, hypothetical future baby, that's even more abstract than broken ribs right now, so. Mm-hmm. I still don't know if that's really gonna get through to them.

Jordan Harbinger: Also, I'm not convinced that they should want David and Kate to move out closer to them.

'cause if they don't change their stance, I could see Michael following them across the country and them letting him in again. Of course. And suddenly you guys are living within walking distance of this guy and he's hanging around your newborn baby and things are even worse and scarier.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Wow. Good point.

They'd have to really turn a corner before our friend here could feel comfortable moving forward with that plan. I hadn't even considered that. Yeah, you're right.

Jordan Harbinger: Also, they'd have to get pregnant first. You know, Michael kind of has to get locked up and not be able to move to where you are in order for this to be real.

That's my opinion.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I guess what I'm actually interested in here is the ways you guys are tying your very big plans for your life to two very flawed and unreliable parent figures. You're not wrong to want your future [00:19:00] child's grandparents in your kids' life. You're not wrong to ask for the help. I'm just appreciating that you guys are in a process of acceptance and grief as well around what David and Kate are actually capable of.

What raising a child would look like, what kind of support you could expect from them, and what kind of support you truly need. And maybe, and this is just a question for you to answer, but maybe one thing you're also negotiating here is how much to depend on Kate and David in your life. Whether your plans to have a child should depend on their ability to finally protect themselves and then choose you by moving out to be closer to you.

I would love for them to do both of those things for sure. That's clearly the best outcome. But in a world where they might not, I do think it is now up to you guys to decide how much you want to expect from them and maybe start exploring other creative solutions to pursue your big goals without them.

That might be sad, disappointing, daunting, and frustrating, and all the things, but it might get you closer to making the best plans for [00:20:00] yourselves without exposing you guys to more of their stuff, their patterns, their choice, their poor choice, because in the same way that Kate and David might be defending against some difficult feelings by continuing to try with Michael, you guys might be defending against some difficult feelings by continuing to try with Kate and David.

As long as that hope remains alive, then you can stave off having to confront what quote unquote failure feels like for you guys. But that failure is not the end of the story. New feelings, new experiences, new scenarios for raising children become possible on the other side of that, and that includes having kids without outsourcing this support or maybe even this permission to your in-laws.

Jordan Harbinger: Totally agree. Gabe. Interesting parallel there. As for Julia, my strong feeling is that you should not invite anyone to the wedding. You don't actually wanna be there. Sounds simple, right? You don't need to capitulate to David and Kate to spare them. I know it's uncomfortable, but this is also an opportunity for you guys to model for [00:21:00] them what it looks like to hold family members to a higher standard, to protect yourself and to draw these boundaries that you want everyone else to draw.

They might throw a fit, but you don't have to care and you don't have to cave. And who knows? Maybe they'll learn from you. I am very sorry that Michael is terrorizing the family. It's super tragic. There's no two ways about it, and Kate and David obviously need support, but these conflicts, they're also an opportunity to remember what is ours to help with and what is someone else's to take care of on their own.

It's a process. It's not easy, but it will lead you to the right decision, sending you and your family a big hug. And I hope you guys have a super fun, beautiful, self-inflicted gunshot wound free wedding. Gabe, they can call Michael's parole officer and tell him anonymously that he has a gun that would make sure he goes back to jail, that's for sure.

Yep. I think that's kind of the nuclear option here. If they really sense that Kate and David are in danger, they could go ahead and do that, but bear in mind, the officer [00:22:00] basically can come in, search the premises, find the gun, and it's open and shot. But you know what? Maybe that's safer because maybe a violent felon should not have a gun, and maybe that's why we have laws against that in the first place.

Just a thought. Now we're gonna hit you right in the gut with some high caliber deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show. Pew, pew. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by BiOptimizers. Most people think sleep is all about how many hours you log, but the real game changer is deep sleep, where I get like five minutes per night, but whatever.

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Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by BetterHelp. October 10th is World Mental Health Day, and this year we're saying thank you to therapists.

Think about it better. Help therapists have helped over 5 million people worldwide on their mental health journeys. That is millions of stories and little breakthroughs. And behind each one is a therapist who showed up, listened and helped somebody take a step forward. And if you've never tried therapy, I get it.

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Back to feedback Friday. Alright, next up.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear [00:25:00] Jordan and Gabe, I'm a single mom of two teenagers in high school and have been for the last 10 years.

Jordan Harbinger: Wait, they're teenagers, but she's been their mom for 10 years.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No, no, no. She's been, she's been a single mom for 10 years I think is what she meant.

Jordan Harbinger: Or the kids are just really smart.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh yeah, that must be it. Yeah, that makes way more sense than the other one.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Good thing I'm here. We wouldn't be able to make heads or tails of some of these letters, man.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm a full-time worker in a federal job that I love and am also a reservist in the military. I've dated a couple of guys, but we always had different expectations and goals, so it never worked out.

Plus, I wasn't really focused on dating as my kids take up most of my time. Then a few years ago I met someone while on a 10 month deployment abroad. Four years later, we're still together, albeit long distance. He's wonderful and such a motivated, high functioning individual, much like me. We're on the same page about a lot of things and have a great time together.

He's great with my kids. We're very good at communicating. [00:26:00] We both strive to always be and do better. What are you laughing at? What? What's the smile on your face? No,

Jordan Harbinger: I was just thinking about the woman who wrote in a few weeks ago also saying she hated it. When people include details like that. My, my amazing supportive underwater basket weaving.

Yeah. Husband, blah, blah, blah. I was just imagining her listening to this letter in her car and screaming at the phone. That's hilarious.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But I can already tell that those details matter to this story, which is the whole point of that segment.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, totally. The more I think about that criticism, the more I'm confused, like this is what life is about.

The details. Obviously, we need to know what this guy is like, if we're gonna weigh in on her relationship, which I assume is where this is going.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Of course. Isn't this better than a guy I banged on a base in Guam four years ago and wouldn't, you know, we're still together. He is all, he is. All right. Not much to say about him, but should we move in together or not?

Jordan Harbinger: Imagine if every feedback Friday letter were written the way that that woman wanted them. No interesting details, just basic facts in a question. It would be the mayonnaise sandwich of advice shows. All right. I'm [00:27:00] done complaining. Carry on.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The problem is we live several states apart, and while we're getting really good at the long distance thing, at some point we'd like to cohabitate and do life together.

The original plan was that the kids and I would move as I was full-time remote while he works in DC and can't really relocate with his job. That plan got scrapped when the executive order came down, returning all federal employees to the office. Currently, there aren't any exceptions I could apply for, and I've got some coworkers that are having to either find new jobs or move back from their out of state locations.

Our options now are, I find a new job, possibly in DC or we wait it out a bit longer and hope the executive order opens up and I can apply to take my job with me. He's looking into lateral transfers, which would mean he could get a job closer, but it's not likely. I've enjoyed literally every job I've ever had, so I know it would be fine.

It would be a new adventure.

Jordan Harbinger: That's a really cool mindset. Great quality makes this whole decision, I think a lot easier. [00:28:00]

Gabriel Mizrahi: The other issue I'm working through is that my kids are in ninth and 10th grade. Do I really want to move them in the middle of high school? My daughter is big into gymnastics, so the thought of moving her to a new gym hurts my heart.

I know kids are resilient and there are other gyms that she could go to, but this gym is like family. I'm not particularly tied to the state we're living in. It's fine, but it's stupid hot all the time and getting more and more crowded. So I would welcome a change. I've talked about this with my kids, and while neither of them wants to move, they do see some upsides to it and will randomly make comments like, if we move, would we still have our own rooms?

Or could I get a cat? Things like that. Already a big fan of your child who asks for a cat, and that's a great part of the package if you ever do end up doing this. So they're not completely shutting down the idea. My daughter doesn't wanna move, of course, but one of her concerns is that she won't have as many opportunities after high school.

They're both in the STEM program at their high school, so they'll be earning some college credits when they graduate, which can only be transferred to a [00:29:00] handful of colleges here in our state. My son seems mostly indifferent. He'd prefer not to move as he would like to attend a university in this state as well, but it's still early in his high school career, so he may change his mind.

The other other issue is my mother. She's been such a huge part of my and my kids' lives, and the thought of leaving her hurts too, we lost my dad several years ago, which is also partially why I keep her so involved in our lives. She helps with picking up and dropping off the kids. She had custody of them while I was gone on deployment, and she takes them for the two weeks each year that I'm sent out on annual training.

I realized we could visit and she could visit us, making those visits much more special. We've also thought about moving her with us, and that is one solution. But my brother also lives close by and recently had a baby, so I'd like her to be here for my brother since she was always there for me with my kids.

Jordan Harbinger: Dude, can I just say she, is it just me, or is she a really thoughtful person?

Gabriel Mizrahi: I was just having the same [00:30:00] reaction. I'm actually getting a little emotional here, just the way she's handling this.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. She wants to be with this wonderful guy who is definitely wonderful, and who we absolutely should know is wonderful, because that's a crucial piece of data for the story, and not a humble bragger or a way to convince herself of something, Lorraine, but she's, she's factoring I know, right?

You know? Mm-hmm. You know, it's lra. Either Lorraine's got beef, but she's factoring in everyone's needs here, hers, her kids, her moms, her brothers, her nephews. She's not just making the decision and monopolizing mom and making her move away with them. She wants her brother to enjoy their mom too.

Gabriel Mizrahi: This is the way everyone should be.

Well, yeah, but as we know from feedback Friday, not always the case.

Jordan Harbinger: Right? Definitely not. I just wanna give her props for that. Solid human. For sure.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I wrestle with what's better for the kids, moving them into a two-parent household and disrupting everything they've ever known or waiting until they graduate high school and then moving.

I know the stats on kids of single parents overall aren't great, and while it might be too late to introduce a strong male role model, maybe it's better late than [00:31:00] ever. My heart wants to move, but I just don't know how to move the kids without them completely hating us and quote unquote ruining their lives.

What would you do signed moving cross country when the ride would be bumpy?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, good question. Tough question. As always, I'm confronted by the conundrum of should I do A, or should I do B when both A and B offer upsides and downsides?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Really funny that you frame it that way 'cause I got a little surprise for you in the last segment, something I think you're gonna appreciate.

But yeah, it's really hard for us to tell you which upsides and which downsides are the quote unquote right ones, or which ones you should live with. It's so personal.

Jordan Harbinger: That's entirely up to her. But it does begin by making peace with that ambiguity and knowing actually, not just knowing, but really embracing, which can be hard to do.

Embracing that there is no perfect scenario in life. There's a basket of goods. There's a basket of bads and a basket of stuff you don't even know about yet. Either way you go, you stay, you and your kids get stability. [00:32:00] Consistency with your job, your mom, for sure. Some boredom or indifference about your current city.

No full-time partner, no male Figure. Your brother having your mom in his and his family's life. You move, you guys get some instability. Maybe your mom, maybe not a new chapter, maybe a new job, a full-time partner and a male figure, possibly your brother not having your mom nearby. And like I said, probably several other variables, including how much adventure and change is meaningful to you guys.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yep. And how you handle it. I think that sometimes matters even more. Yes. So you have to really sit with those and talk them out as a family. Value them for yourself. Get clear, and I would bring your kids into that conversation, which you already seem to be doing. They are old enough now to have a real say in where they live, to tell you what they want.

How they feel, what this move would be like for them, what it brings up for them, what they need from you to make it work. Potentially. I think it's great data that they're not shutting the idea down. In fact, they seem curious about it. Maybe even a little excited, you know, if they were going like, oh [00:33:00] no, please don't move us.

Like we don't want to go, don't make, you know, that would be a different story. That would be a different data point. Equally important. But my feeling about these choices is, again, it's way more process than outcome.

Jordan Harbinger: The interesting theme on today's episode, same thing with the conversation with the in-laws from question one.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly. And just to be clear, by process, I mean the process by which you make this decision is probably more important than just picking one option and going for it. So again, how you talk to your kids about moving, how you value your professional opportunities, they are academic opportunities. What's ultimately most important to you guys?

You know, how you talk to your brother about sharing time with your mom, how you talk to your mom about what this would be like for her, both staying behind and following you guys. There are tons of important conversations to be had, and I, I just think that the way you collaborate with everyone here, which also means, you know, kind of hanging in the uncertainty of this decision with them, that is going to tell you which way to go.

But by process I also mean how you guys navigate this next chapter, whichever [00:34:00] choice you end up making. So if you do move, you will encounter struggles. How do you move through those struggles? How do you take care of one another through them? How do you tap into your skills, your relationships, your support systems, you know how you and your kids and your boyfriend make the most of your time together once you're living together, if that's the choice you end up making, and also how you take advantage of the upsides and how you manage the downsides, I think all of that matters more than making the quote unquote right decision.

So maybe in addition to asking, should I pick path A or should I pick path B, a helpful question might be, should I be person A or should I be person B or even better? What sort of person do I want to be to make the most of this decision? Whichever path I end up choosing.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I like that. 'cause either way, she's the one who has to go through it.

It's not like you just pick one and then all your problems are solved. You're still you. So which version of you do you want to be walking these paths? Good point. I'll give you one more thought. And this is not just a cute way to plug six minute networking, but you know I'm gonna do it. I would start [00:35:00] exploring this, move through your relationships and see what happens.

By that I mean start casually asking about professional opportunities in dc. Keep advocating for a transfer. Keep helping your boyfriend find opportunities, start making friends in the area. Start connecting those dots. My experience, I know I'm gonna sound a little bit like hippie Grandpa Gabriel right now, but, and I'm a little mad about it, but I do really believe what I'm about to say.

My experience is that when you put stuff out into the universe, man, and when you activate your relationships around that, in a very practical way, highlight bold, underline. Life has a way of showing you which direction to head. If you try for six months to meet people in DC, you're hitting your head against the wall over and over again.

Okay. That's an interesting sign. Also, probably means you can't move yet anyway, just on a practical level. But if you start talking to people and suddenly you get a job offer or something, you find a great house for sale or rent, your daughter finds a great gymnastics gym in the area. She starts getting excited about different colleges.[00:36:00]

Elaine starts to open up, you know. Like Gabe talked about with his film and his road trip a couple weeks ago, it might not even feel like you're making a choice. It might even feel like the choice is being made for you, but it's being made for you through your effort, primarily through your effort into your relationships.

So that might also help you navigate the A versus B thing, because even if you're like, okay, I'm just gonna commit, I'm moving to dc, you're still gonna need your relationships, you're still gonna need a job, you're still gonna need all those pieces. So you might as well start warming those up and exploring them now, and then let them show you where you're supposed to be.

Gabe, did I manage to say that without sounding like I just came back from a mushroom and cacao ceremony? Yeah,

Gabriel Mizrahi: you nailed it. I mean, totally agree with everything you just said. Yeah. And also, I would not be mad if you sounded like you came back from a cacao ceremony, but that's a very problem. Exactly.

You're the

Jordan Harbinger: wrong person to ask. So it sounds woo woo, but it really isn't at all. Yeah, I promise. It's just investing in your relationships in a way that generates opportunities.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You can make whatever meaning you wanna [00:37:00] make out of it, vis-a-vis the universe, but the steps are the same and that that's your point.

Yes, exactly. Sorry, we're throwing so much at you here for what might be a kind of basic life decision, but I'm very passionate about this. There is something to be said for stability and there's something to be said for adventure. We need both in life. So I appreciate that you're not trying to uproot your children and traumatize them by just picking up and moving to dc.

I'm sure they love you for that. But if they're showing you that they could get excited about this move, and if you start to feel that they have the inner resources to manage a move like this, well hey, maybe that's a sign that this move would be good. I mean, maybe that's a quality you even wanna cultivate in your children.

Help them get excited about that quality so that they can be adventurers themselves one day. And the only way to do that is to make a big change like this together and find out what it's like. Just something else to consider while you weigh all those variables.

Jordan Harbinger: Amen, Gabe. Again, it's all about the balance between those extremes.

There's no right answer. There's only helpful [00:38:00] process sending you your kids and your boyfriend a big hug, the whole damn family. Really. Let's make it a group hug. Wishing you all the best. You can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Keep your emails concise, use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a whole lot easier.

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Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a high level employee in a very busy, high stress job. While I have a lot of coworkers I interact with day to day, I have one junior employee who works directly under me. [00:39:00] She's the main person I interact with every day, and we've been friends at work and used to get along really well.

Occasionally we would go out for drinks or something like that outside of work with other colleagues, but it was mostly a work friendship. But recently she's become highly critical and bossy and started pushing boundaries to manage things that are outside of her role. She would frequently get angry at how the company is run and started badmouthing people too.

I feel like this kicked off when I started training new employees. She failed out of school to be in my role, and I think the new trainees are an uncomfortable reminder. I've tried to be sensitive to that and let her know that her work and her insights are important. I also reminded her of our roles and how things are supposed to go, but she continued to bully trainees and tried to keep them from doing their job, as well as trying to go above her job capabilities.

Enough trainees complained to me and I basically had to tell her that despite our friendship, I'm the senior employee and she's following my direction. [00:40:00] It created a lot of tension, but if I just let her do what she wants, it could result in us both being fired, which I also told her despite multiple conversations, the issue didn't get better, so I went to management and they removed her from that role.

Turns out management had also had other issues with her performance and agreed that this was necessary. She was so mad at me saying we were supposed to be friends. How could I and how it was a massive betrayal.

Jordan Harbinger: This woman sounds like a nightmare. There's something wrong with this person. She doesn't understand the boundaries here at all.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. There's something wrong with this person. But I'm also kind of thinking about like the Michael situation we talked about in question one. Mm-hmm. Like some, you don't do this stuff unless there's something wrong. Yeah. Like you said, there's something wrong with this person. Yeah. I think you meant it in a couple different ways.

Yes. Like, I feel bad for this woman because she's clearly has some wound that is being activated by this work situation. But also like, you gotta act right. This is not, this is not okay. Mm-hmm. So the letter goes on. Here's the other thing. I'm currently [00:41:00] pregnant and I ended up telling her at about eight weeks because of nausea and feeling tired at work.

We worked so closely together. She knew something was up. She promised not to tell and was supportive. She knew that I was telling no one. My husband and I, he works at the same company, but not directly with me. We're waiting to tell employers and coworkers until about 20 weeks since I had a miscarriage earlier in the year, and I didn't want everyone knowing until we were ready in retaliation for being removed from her role.

She started telling everyone, ugh. She also started saying rude things about my husband's child from a previous relationship who unfortunately has a lot of medical problems, that our child will end up with the same problems in really awful ways that the baby will be quote unquote retarded, like the other one, that I'm ruining my life by getting pregnant.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. So any sympathy or understanding I had for this woman just went straight out the window at this point in the letter. Who says [00:42:00] stuff like this. She's awful. Really? She's an awful person.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I went to management immediately because Good. It took less than a day for all of this to get back to me, which meant telling all of management about the pregnancy before I was ready as well.

Management told her to stop talking about me and will find her a schedule. On days. I don't work, but it doesn't feel like enough. I'm devastated the fact that people at work know medical information about me. I wasn't ready to share. Feels violating. I'm nervous that if I miscarry again, everyone will figure that out at work too, and I'm a generally very private person.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, of course. Not cool at all. I am so sorry it came out this way. I can only imagine how stressful and vulnerable it must feel to have everyone know before you're ready, especially given what you've been through before. I find it so weird that they're like, oh, we'll find her a schedule on days you don't work.

It's like, how about you find her way to get her ass out the door? Like, oh, sorry, you're incapable of working with your boss. We'll move you to a different department. Oh, sorry, you decided to retaliate against your boss. We'll make sure that you don't see each [00:43:00] other in the hallways. It's like, at what point do you just go, oh, I get it.

You're a piece of shit. We don't want you here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's so weird. All of the letters today kind of have the exact same problems. Yeah, same themes. It's interesting. Yeah. I saw her at work in passing and she told me to fuck off, so that's uncomfortable too. Also, with overtime and staffing issues, it's impossible to not run into her, and I don't have much faith that she'll stop gossiping.

How do I handle talking to all my coworkers about the pregnancy now that they know? Keep it to myself until we wanted to tell people, shut down the conversation and let people think what they want. Take it in stride and tell everyone myself, now do I bring up the drama with this coworker or just shut it down?

Should I address the fact that this baby is not going to be severely disabled like she made it sound?

Jordan Harbinger: I'm just gonna nip that one in the bud right now. Definitely not. Definitely not. Yep. You don't need to defend anything.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No,

Jordan Harbinger: you don't need to explain anything. If you do, I'm afraid. You're really just allowing this woman to drag you into conversations that are [00:44:00] petty and pointless and a total waste of time.

So on this point, yeah, don't even go there.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Is there more that can be done to fix this? Is this some sort of harassment? Do I have any rights when an employee maliciously tells other people my private medical information? Is my employer right that this is not a fireable offense? Or is there a way I can put some pressure on HR to not sweep this under the rug?

And get rid of her. Is this justified or is it just my anger speaking. Signed looking for some coordinates to bury this insubordinate.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh boy. Okay. So this woman sounds like a nightmare. What? A piece of work. I feel like we're gonna be talking about her a lot, so we should give her a name. Oh no, I don't want to go with the obvious one.

I know every time you know what I'm talking about. Gabe, the one that gets us emails. Yeah, I From people with that name. We need a new one, Naomi. Sure. I mean it sounds too nice somehow, but Sure. No, 'cause she's

Gabriel Mizrahi: like, do I still want this woman around my office? And the answer is nay. So Naomi.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. More like [00:45:00] cray because this woman would be straight up crying.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm good with that too, by the way. I like that a lot. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if you can say it over and over again.

Jordan Harbinger: No, I was gonna say, I don't know if I can see, keep saying cray with a straight face. Let's just go with Naomi. So Naomi

Gabriel Mizrahi: Naomi's

Jordan Harbinger: fine. Naomi sounds both totally unprofessional and more or less insane.

A person like this cannot continue to work on a team without being seriously managed. Why would you go through the effort? Honestly, if this were my employee, I would just be doing everything in my power to get them fired. This is just some bullshit of the highest order. What she said and what she's done is weird.

It's cruel, it's hurtful, it's dysfunctional, and not just to you, but to a lot of other people at your company. It's just not okay on so many different levels. But I know there are nuances to this in a corporate setting. Something Gabe and I have not been part of in a long time. So we wanted to get an expert's opinion.

We reached out to Joanna Tate, friend of the show, an HR professional for over 20 years, and Joanna had [00:46:00] basically the same reaction that I did. She said, wow, this lady sounds like a real treat. Mm-hmm. And she really,

Gabriel Mizrahi: I love it. We we say piece of work. Yeah. A-hole nightmare. Like real treat. Real treat.

Jordan Harbinger: And Joanna really feels for you having to deal with this woman.

Joanna also had a more empathetic lens on Naomi than I do, which is that Naomi has had some painful setbacks in her life. She's acting out and trying to protect her ego, which I mean, yeah, okay. Clearly this woman has some wounds and triggers and all that fine, but also you're shamelessly and maliciously spreading sensitive medical information about your boss to other colleagues and calling her future child retarded in the break room that's not acting out.

'cause you have a tender spot that's cruel and it's kind of insane. That's my feeling. So let's talk about what Naomi's done here in terms of your private medical information. Joanna said, Naomi is not an entity required by hipaa. Those are the medical privacy laws in the states. She's not required to keep your medical condition [00:47:00] confidential unless she's also responsible for handling employee insurance or medical information, which she's not.

But Joanna was pretty clear on this point, her spreading this information. This could be considered harassing. Now, for a behavior like this, to rise to the level of unlawful harassment, it has to be behavior against a coworker that is severe or pervasive enough to interfere with their work. And it has to be based on a protected class like someone's race, color, religion, sex, national origin.

Additional protected classes under federal law include gender identity, disability, and you guessed it, pregnancy. In Joanna's view, Naomi's behavior probably rises to the level of unlawful harassment. Her comments were directed at your stepson's medical issues and your pregnancy. She was suggesting that your unborn baby would be disabled in some way.

All of this stuff happened so frequently that it caused you or others to be unable to work. So Joanna feels that you are not overreacting at [00:48:00] all. She would be furious at this woman, but even if management decided that Naomi wasn't unlawfully harassing you, she's still harassing others and creating a demoralizing work environment by bullying and gossiping.

If Joanna were dealing with this, she would set the expectation and document that the harassment should stop altogether, and if it continues additional discipline and or termination would be the next step. Basically, she should be fired if she doesn't knock this crap off. So this won't be a surprise to you at all.

Joanna's advice was to document, document, document dates, approximate times, who said or did what, what the outcomes were, what you did, how she responded, all of that. And you'll wanna include the stuff about her bullying, the trainees, and trying to keep them from doing their jobs too. You were her superior, so that suggests that this is insubordination on her part.

Share this with HR as many times as you have to, to make them understand and send them new documentation if she continues harassing and retaliating. This documentation is helpful for a couple of reasons. First, it paints a [00:49:00] picture of an employee's behavior, so management can see how it's manifested, how it's progressed.

Sometimes we forget all the instances of an employee's bad behavior. Sometimes the details get fuzzy. Sometimes it's hard to separate the facts from the narrative that develops. Joanna said that seeing everything documented can help HR make a clear, appropriate decision about what to do next. Also, it can really help protect the company if any legal claims of wrongful termination are brought forward.

Joanna would also encourage you to ask HR that they warn Naomi against retaliatory behavior, which she seems to be doing acting out more because she was disciplined and demoted.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So yes, Joanna would consider this a fireable offense, but Joanna said that different HR professionals can give different answers to questions like this.

Every harassment situation has its nuances. Every company makes its own calls. In her opinion, you can make a very good case that Naomi was retaliating for being demoted by sharing private information inappropriately, which included someone's pregnancy and a [00:50:00] possible disability, which again, are protected classes.

Jordan Harbinger: I'm not an HR professional, obviously, but I feel like if you document this stuff, well, Naomi probably buried herself here. I say good riddance. Screw it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Now about confronting Naomi directly. You don't have to, but Joanna said that she's always a proponent of sticking up for yourself, even if it's difficult to do so.

If you feel comfortable, she said you could take Naomi aside in a private area as long as you can stay calm, that's crucial. And let her know that you became aware that the news of your pregnancy had been shared with others, that Naomi was the only person who knew about it. And you're assuming she talked to other people about it, that this was hurtful to you because you were trying to allow more time to pass before you announced it, that you also heard some other details were shared about the health of your stepson and unborn child, and those details were hurtful, inappropriate, untrue.

And then you say, I am asking you to stop talking about me and my family immediately. Just leave it at that. Now, Joanna is [00:51:00] saying that it's okay to do this because you don't seem to be in any physical danger here, but if a person feels unsafe being around their harasser at work, Joanna would never suggest that they reengage in a separate conversation.

Just ask them to stop, flag her with the company, let HR take care of it.

Jordan Harbinger: I cannot wait for HR to get this documentation. I

Gabriel Mizrahi: know you're so excited. You just want the, you just want this woman to go away so badly. I

Jordan Harbinger: do.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: It's so obvious that Naomi's crossed major lines over and over again. If I were you, I would be turning in this documentation with Glee and look, whether you tell your coworkers about your pregnancy, that's absolutely your choice.

Joanna said, you'd really don't have any obligation to let them know until you're ready. I also think it's very likely that all the other normal people at your company would be very compassionate and understanding about your situation. Being put on blast like this, having someone bring up weird speculative rumors about your baby.

It's just so bizarre. Joanna, put it best based on the behavior you've described in Naomi's low emotional intelligence, which is like, wow, [00:52:00] Bazinga. I would be shocked if this woman has been able to earn much support or respect or credibility from her colleagues, or that anyone believes a word she says at this point.

Anyway, I'll put it less delicately. I think your colleagues know that Naomi is a loony tune biatch in the office.

Gabriel Mizrahi: An LTB.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Mm-hmm. I think everyone knows she's petty and super insecure and mean-spirited, and that even if her gossip were true, which it's not, aside from the fact that you're pregnant, of course they're probably all cringing and wincing at her and feeling bad for you, and not really putting much stock in anything she says.

So my strong feeling is document this bs. Keep sending it to hr. Refocus on your work and your responsibilities and your pregnancy. People like Naomi are energy vampires. If she throws you off balance too much. If she dominates your time and attention, she wins. Don't let her be bigger than her. Be more disciplined than her.

Focus on yourself, on your team, on the baby, and trust that your [00:53:00] character, your style, your results, they're gonna do more to protect you than anything else. Congrats on the pregnancy. Sorry it's been stressful so far, but it's super exciting sending you your husband and the baby. A big hug and wishing you all the best.

And wishing Naomi Cray, one of the worst coworkers I think we've ever heard about on feedback Friday. Wishing you the worst. She sucks. I think she's in for a rude awakening. People like this are a cancer and an organization, and if they can't have a respectful and reasonable conversation and change, then they need to be cut out period.

All right. And now for some Retire amazing good deals on the products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Shopify. Starting a business can be overwhelming, especially if you're in the e-commerce side of things. If I were to start one up today, I would definitely use Shopify.

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I am addicted to lit fella.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So while I've been traveling, I've been working out and doing yoga on the road a lot, as most of you know. And sometimes I can't make a class or I just wanna do my own thing. So you know, I'll do a workout in my apartment or in the hotel room or at a park or whatever. And I always use Mat, but I left my nice mat at home because it was too heavy and it took up too much space in my bag.

So [00:56:00] I ended up going back to my favorite yoga mat brand. It's called Jade. And I bought their travel mat. And this travel mat is thinner than a standard yoga mat. It's super light, I think it's about three pounds. It rolls up easily. It has the best grip of any mat I've ever used. So when you sweat, you don't slide around or anything like that.

It has good cushioning, it's eco-friendly. They also have an even lighter version of this mat called the Jade Voyager, which is even thinner, I think it's 1.5 pounds. And you can use this mat for yoga, for hit, for pushups, for abs. You can even fold it and use it like a cushion on the floor if you, I don't know, happen to find yourself at an unscheduled sound bath.

And you need to sit on the ground, you know, niche use case, I realize, but you never know. Jordan's face suggests that that is not a use case he's interested in, but it's not just, my point is it's not just a yoga mat, but it is especially great for yoga.

Jordan Harbinger: Ken confirmed did some calisthenics on one of these bad boys at Gabe's house a few months back, and I remember that grip pretty amazing.

Zero slippage. Obviously I can't opine on the [00:57:00] sound bath, uh, side of things, but if you like doing pike pushups and forearm planks and stuff like that without slipping and falling straight down to your face, it was great for all that stuff.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The Jade Travel Yoga mat, the Jade Voyager mat, big fan of both.

We'll link to those in the show notes for you.

Jordan Harbinger: Also, in case you don't know, there's this subreddit for the show. If you wanna make fun of Gabe's recommendations of the week, uh, and, and other things. You can talk about the episodes if you want. Uh, if there's an episode you like, an episode you didn't like, you wanna yell at us for being too mean.

You wanna yell at us for not being mean enough. You know, you don't even have to make up your mind. You can do both in one comment. You can find us at the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. All

Gabriel Mizrahi: right, next up. So several weeks ago I recommended one of my favorite books, A Swim In A Pond in The Rain, by George Saunders.

And by the way, I got a bunch of messages from you guys emails, dms saying that you bought the book, you're a chapter in and you're obsessed with it. I am so happy to hear that. I can't tell you how awesome it is to share this book with you guys. And a lot of you guys are not even writers or artists or people who, who'd curl up with short stories, but I'm just so glad you guys are enjoying that book.

It's one of [00:58:00] my favorites and I'm actually listening to it yet again on audiobook. Anyway, I also subscribe to George Saunders Substack. It's called Story Club, which is amazing. In this newsletter, he does a kind of feedback Friday for writers where once a week he takes a letter from an aspiring writer and he offers some advice.

And in one of his recent newsletters, he ended up taking a question from a doctor who has wanted to be a writer his whole life, and he just got a potentially life-changing medical diagnosis. And this guy was basically asking, would I be playing a joke on myself if I seriously reevaluated my life? And I kept writing my stories seriously when I'm not busy seeing patients, knowing that my stories will probably never be readable or publishable, or should I give up now while I still can and just do what I'm really good at, which is basically being a doctor and mentoring other people to be scientists.

So George answered this person's question and in his answer. He ended up talking about a theme that pops up on [00:59:00] feedback Friday all the time. And this is what I was referring to in the earlier sub when I said I had a little surprise for you. In fact, it popped up a few times today, which is, do I choose option A, or do I choose option B?

Do I take the job offer that I have in hand, or do I keep interviewing and hope for something better? You know, do I move my kids across the country to be with my partner or do I stay put and give them stability? Whatever the decision might be. So I wanted to share this short passage with you guys, and George is talking about writing, but as I read his take, let's maybe think about it more broadly as it applies to work or relationships or family or whatever.

Because I think what he's saying here is true of everything in life. So he writes, it's interesting artistic questions in the form of, should I A or should IB, are sometimes best answered? Simply both. Meaning resist the dichotomy and find a third way. Should I be funny or should I be serious? Should I invent or should I write autobiographically?

Should I [01:00:00] place myself in the lineage of this writer or that one? If a person feels like asking this kind of question, it's usually because they've mentally tried out both approaches and found neither one to be satisfactory.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, damn. Yeah, that hits.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So in this case in which I think you're asking something like, should I quit my job and be a real writer or keep my job and fail to be a real writer?

My answer would be, is there maybe a third way? And by third way, I mean a way of thinking about this that tries to cut through the problem from another direction. If an A versus B type opposition is making us unhappy, can we just decide that in casting it as an opposition or an error, can we do that in the spirit of lessening our anxiety?

Which may have the effect of channeling more energy to the actual work.

Jordan Harbinger: Hold up. Let me just make sure I'm understanding what he's saying. He's saying, can we decide that in thinking about this as an opposition, we are making a mistake,

Gabriel Mizrahi: right? Meaning is this option [01:01:00] A or option B thing that we tend to fall into a lot as humans.

This binary way of looking at our choices, is that even really an accurate way to think about life?

Jordan Harbinger: That is interesting. I feel like we've said versions of that here on the show a few times. Totally. I kind of think we said it today actually, didn't we?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. I think you kind of were saying this when you said, well, maybe put aside is A right or B, right, and just focus on your relationships because that's what's gonna create the path that you're actually looking for.

This connects to the whole process versus outcome idea as well.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. The, this process versus outcome idea and also the invest in your relationships and see what other versions of this choice reveal themselves.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes,

Jordan Harbinger: exactly. So what was his advice for this guy? I mean, I, I like this. I agree, but where does this actually get him?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay, so he ended up offering a couple concrete pieces of advice. So for example, he asks this guy, this doctor, who is not sure about whether to go all in on his writing, is it possible that your medical work is actually the source of your writing? And maybe the trick is to recognize and be grateful for that, and thereby [01:02:00] eliminate the oppositional A versus B push-pull thing that you feel.

He also tells this guy, look, you can agonize about this all you want, but at the end of the day, this might just come down to scheduling. You know, like maybe you need to do some real thinking about the time that you set aside for writing and the time that you have to dedicate to your patients and your colleagues.

And then you might not feel as much of a sense of being denied something when you're not writing

Jordan Harbinger: solid advice. I'm not a writer, but I can relate. I think that's true for everyone who wants to do something new in addition to their career entrepreneurs or parents. Everyone really.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, everybody for sure.

But to me, the concrete advice for this particular guy is super interesting, but it's kind of secondary for our purposes. The reason I was excited to share this with everyone is just that I see this same tendency in myself a lot to get very locked into these binary choices and to view life as, you know, I gotta do A or I gotta do B, and there's nothing in between and there's nothing else.

And I have a tendency to develop a kind of decisional tunnel vision and to kind of wrap myself [01:03:00] around that way of looking at a problem or an opportunity, and then I end up missing all of this other really interesting territory. Maybe it's a way to do both, or maybe there's a third or a fourth or a fifth option that's even better, or I'm just forgetting that really the choice is not as important as the mindset.

The attitude, the consciousness that we cultivate as we move through these choices

Jordan Harbinger: or the set of habits and policies we develop around whatever decision we make. Carving out time, not getting interrupted or thrown off course too much.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yep. Or asking other people for guidance, whatever it is. Exactly.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

So now I really see the connection to question two. This is exactly what that listener is facing. Do I choose X or do I choose Y? And how do I get this right?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly. And anyway, look, I'm still turning this over. It's a big concept to wrap your head around. I wanna see if I can play with this a little bit more in my own life.

But in the meantime, I just wanted to share it with you guys in case it's useful or interesting to you as well. And if it is or if it isn't, feel free to email me and tell me about it. I am really curious because I don't know, maybe we [01:04:00] can swap notes on this one.

Jordan Harbinger: I love it. Thanks for sharing. Nice conceptual chestnut.

We can come back to this. George Saunders dude knows a thing or two about a thing or two, eh?

Gabriel Mizrahi: He really does. I told you then his book changed my life. For this reason. It is changing my life. It's really not just about writing. It's about. How to live life well, how to be a human being. And by the way, uh, George Saunders just won a national book award for Distinguished Contribution to American Letters, which like, I know nothing about these prizes or how they get handed out or are they political, are they not?

I don't, I have no idea. But apparently it's very prestigious and dude so well deserved in my opinion. He's such a good writer and just such a solid human being. I love him.

Jordan Harbinger: I can see why. Well, on that note, screw Naomi one last time. Just for good measure. You're embodying

Gabriel Mizrahi: the spirit of George Saunders.

Jordan Harbinger: That's right. Don't forget our episodes with Greg Luchi off on Free speech, Evan Osnos on Yachts and our Skeptical Sunday on human trafficking. Don't miss those. Go and have a listen if you haven't done so yet. Show notes on the website. Transcripts on the website, advertisers deals, discounts, ways to support the show.

Also on the website at jordanharbinger.com/deals. [01:05:00] I'm @JordanHarbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. You can find Gabe on Instagram @GabrielMizrahi. This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tadas Sidlauskas, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi.

Our advice and opinions are our own. I am a lawyer. I'm not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Ditto, Joanna Tate. Remember, we've rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today.

In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. What if your life depended on slipping past KGB surveillance? Using nothing but a fake mustache and a latex mask. Former CIA Chief of disguised Jonna Mendez takes us deep into the shadowy world of Cold War espionage, where outsmarting your enemy meant mastering the art of becoming someone else entirely.

JHS Clip: I worked for 27 years for the CIA. The office that I worked in was like Q. We [01:06:00] had all kinds of techs. One half of the office was technical. It was chemists and physicists and engineers, electrical and mechanical people. It was such esoteric specialties. It was so important. It was the bottom line to a lot of the things we did.

The other half of the office was my half, which was people who would deploy those tools, who would take them to the field, who would hand them to James, sort of an inside joke. All the case officers, we called them all James, and part of us didn't trust James with our gear, as we might've spent $5 million on a program to develop that camera system that fit into a Mo Blanc pen.

We usually figured out how to go with him. So if he broke it, we could fix it. If he lost it, we could find it. If he forgot how to operate it, we could refresh him. It was a little inside joke. If he left it on the subway, maybe we can go get it. So we traveled around with James. We not only equipped him and we trained him, but we also very often accompany him.

A [01:07:00] lot of our technical expertise would come into play. People are very aware of the threat that that technology can play. How can you use it? What can it do for you? It's just given us opportunities to do things we never dreamed of. The real work in OTS was solving problems.

Jordan Harbinger: To hear more about how spy tech disguise and raw nerve shaped modern intelligence as we know it, check out episode 1027 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.