1240: Warned Not to Wed Wife, You Fear for Your Life | Feedback Friday

1240: Warned Not to Wed Wife, You Fear for Your Life | Feedback Friday

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Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the civilian in vermilion, Gabriel Mizrahi. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people in turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. And during the week we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks from organized crime figures, rocket scientists, astronauts, and music moguls. This week we had Rizwan Virk on whether or not we are living in a simulation.

He's a former video game developer who explains how computers could actually simulate our entire world, and even us. He talks about whether we ourselves might just be an actual simulation, not just in a simulation. We are the simulation and it's, this conversation is very sort of non pothead redditor kind of way.

Don't worry, it's you're not gonna have to roll a blunt beforehand in order to enjoy it. Gabe and I also interviewed Ken [00:01:00] Burns, legendary documentarian and historian. We talked about his new documentary, the American Revolution, about the world changing impact of the founding of America. We also talked about his unique philosophy of storytelling, how he stays committed to his subject for decades, how he sees this particular moment in American history, and how his early experiences drove him to dedicate his career to reviving the dead.

A truly fascinating guy with a lot to say. We had a great conversation with him. And finally, we did a skeptical Sunday, last Sunday on light pollution. On Fridays, though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious sound bites, and refuse to let Gabe live down his most humiliating sartorial tragedy.

We do. We do do that. Yes. Gabe, you're back in L.A.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm home.

Jordan Harbinger: What a weird transition after all the hippie circles and Baltic cruises and German floor mattresses.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, it is a little surreal, but overall so nice. I'm at my mom's house right now. As you can see, I'm sleeping in my sister's old bedroom. Yeah.

Which is now the guest room. And it is so nice. I, I did need a break after all the [00:02:00] moving around. You know how it is.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I do know how it is. I, there's nothing like coming home after being on the road for a while and that week, week and a half we did on the East coast for interviews. When I came home and I got to see my wife and kids, I was like, oh, I miss this.

I can't even imagine five months away. Well, I mean, I can, 'cause I've done years away before, but that was different. It's funny though. It doesn't feel like five months, somehow.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It feels shorter to you?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I think so. What about you?

Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't know, I guess it feels like five months, but like so much life was packed into those five months that they kind of feel like a year.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. So I don't know if it's time dilation. It kind of is. So if you ask me how long I was living in the former East Germany in the nineties, I would say 10 months. 'cause I know that it was 10 months. But if you ask me how much development I had during that 10 months, I mean every couple months was honestly like a year.

'cause it was like the first three months I didn't speak any German. I was really homesick. I kind of hated it. It didn't match up to my expectation. The second three months I was learning German rapidly. I was making friends rapidly. I was, I [00:03:00] switched classes, I did a whole bunch of stuff. Found hobbies, really enjoyed, you know, what I was doing.

The last four months, it was like, I live here now. I speak German conversationally. I'm friends with all these people that call me all the time and I have girlfriends and stuff, you know, it was just like completely D. And then I came back home and I was like, yeah, I've been gone for forever. People were like, oh yeah, you were gone.

Yeah, yeah. How was that? And I was like, dude, what did you do? And they're like, you know, like drove around and like hung out. And I'm like, God, I didn't miss anything.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's like Interstellar, the movie. Yes. You know how when they go to the other planet and the time is different so they can only stay there for a few minutes. 'Cause it's like years back home. Yes. Or vice versa. I always forget. Yeah. Yeah. It's kinda like that when you travel.

Jordan Harbinger: It is, but especially when you really sit somewhere and you're doing your own thing. And also, I guess I'll never know the answer to this, but since this was kind of pre peak internet, like I had a OL, but I didn't have Skype.

That didn't exist. You couldn't do voiceover ip, or at least I don't think you could. There was something called Dialpad. I'm not sure if that was working or existed, [00:04:00] but really you couldn't do much with the internet. Right? Email. I remember my host father was like, I got a mobile phone for you so you can text me and tell me where you are.

And I never took it. And he's like, take the damn phone. I was like, I hate it. I hate carrying it. And it's funny 'cause now like I would never leave home without my phone, but he's like, can you take the fricking, I remember he would be like, take the fricking phone and send me a text and stop calling me from payphones.

And being like, yeah, I think I'm on these cross streets. Like, just take the damn phone. He's like, if I call this thing and my kitchen rings again, I'm gonna be pissed off. Like, you know, it's like, this is like back then new. You're just like, I don't need it. Why do I need to call anybody from outside? You know?

Just like I never had, I just had a phone card. I used it like once a week. Now though I meet people abroad and I'm like, what are you doing? They're like, oh, I'm studying abroad. And I'm like, oh, okay. What do you think about about it? And they're, they're like in the Czech Republic. Talking with their friends on FaceTime in English, posting crap on their Instagram, answering dms, having a call with their mom over breakfast.

And I'm like, it's not the same. You're kind of on a weird extended vacation. [00:05:00] 'cause you're maintaining all your friendships, you're maintaining all your relationships. And one of the things they told us on our exchange was to not forget about your friends back home, but like don't try. They were kind of like that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It sounds like a Nexium orientation session.

Jordan Harbinger: We're your family now.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Forget about them.

Jordan Harbinger: It really was kinda like that. 'cause it was like, don't try and maintain your relationships with all your homeboys or your girls back in Michigan. What you should be focused on is your life in Germany. Like you're not going home soon.

School drama is irrelevant to you. Friend circle drama is irrelevant to you. Your boyfriend, girlfriend. Sorry bro. Irrelevant to you. It was like, just the sooner you realize this, the less you're gonna be homesick, the less you're gonna feel like you're out of sync with everything and the more you're gonna quicker you're gonna adapt.

And it was easy for me because I was kind of like, my girlfriend and I were like, I was just like, whatever. We're all, you're going to college. And then my best friends, they were so bad at keeping in touch that I gave up really early. 'cause I was like, these guys don't give a crap. And honestly when I came back they were like, oh hey bro, it made it easy to go to college.

'cause I was like, these guys don't give two [00:06:00] shits. Wow. It was a little bit sad, but I also kind of get it. They got into like drugs and stuff and they were like really into selling them. And I was like, guys, I want a future. So good luck. Bye. Hmm. So when I came back and they weren't interested, my parents and I were like, it's fine.

And they ended up getting in major trouble for that later. But I digress. The reason that travel feels so different pre-internet is because of that. And I think you could probably do it now. You just have to very consciously be like, all right. I'm off social media or I'm limiting social media to when I'm super bored or, or like homesick only, or like one hour a week, whatever it is.

You can't carry around your mobile and be like dicking around on Instagram all the time and answering all your dms and texting all your friends constantly. It's just, it's not gonna work. You're gonna be torn in different directions and that's without even getting into the impact it's gonna have on learning the local language.

Totally. Yeah. With also all the tools you have to translate and everything. Yeah. It's fascinating. The technology allows you to be in multiple places at once. Mm-hmm. Which was not possible until recently. It's also not ideal for adapting to a new place permanently let's [00:07:00] semi permanently. Right. You're sort of depriving yourself of the joy of doing a thing like this, but Right.

Man, I don't know if you felt like this in Germany, but on these travels the last couple months, I was like, I know I'm gonna be home at some point in the fall, but it just kept receding. Like they just kept, I felt like Odysseus toward the end there. It was just like slowly making my way back home. New things kept popping up and waylaying me.

There would be like a cool invitation to go here, come to New York and visit me. The interviews we did in New York, like an old friend wants to have lunch and I'll stay for another couple days. You know, it just kept going and going and I was like, I'm never actually gonna go home. That's, it's not gonna happen.

That's right. Distracted by the siren song of podcasting. I became a bit of a lotus eater at a certain point, you know, just lost in a dream of finished forests and forgetfulness.

The Odyssey, is that the story where he is got a bag with all the winds in it? Yes.

That's the one he's supposed to let out, the gentle wind so he can get home and then all the winds, they escape or something and he is lost at sea for like a decade or whatever.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. His men think that there's treasure in the bags, so they open it and then they

let out all the winds and they're lost again.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:08:00] Right. Ugh,

Gabriel Mizrahi: that's

Jordan Harbinger: me inviting you to interview Bill Macy and Ken Burns and do Feedback Friday in a fricking hotel room in Manhattan. Totally.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You are my mythical bag of wind, my friend.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I am a win bag, that's for sure. I mean, you know, if the shoe fits. Indeed. All right. But this is not the end of your travels.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No, no, no. I'm just here for three weeks and then I'm off to Japan.

Jordan Harbinger: Jealous slash ridiculous

Gabriel Mizrahi: Should be cool. I'm actually going, did I tell you this? I'm going with Erin Margolis for the first two weeks.

Jordan Harbinger: Dr. Erin Margolis. The...

Gabriel Mizrahi: the fucking doctor.

Jordan Harbinger: That's right. Man, I wish I could meet up with you guys. I'm quite jealous. I'm gonna be, it's gonna be fun. Yeah, I'm gonna be busy in Patagonia. Boohoo.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So Erin is one of my, I don't know if you guys know this, Erin is one of my oldest friends, so it's gonna be really special to be in Japan with her.

And it's her first time in Japan, and actually, I think it's her first time in Asia, so, oh, wow. I'm very excited to see her mind get blown. Time to take her to eat at 7-Eleven. We've already talked about that actually, for people who are grossed out by that, basically at a 7-Eleven in Japan, you can get a SIM card for your phone, get your dry cleaning done, get a pretty darn good, [00:09:00] decent meal.

Not like what you would get here, like a hot dog with hair in it. You can get like a lottery ticket, a beer, a memory card for your computer. And milk. I mean like the stuff you can get at a 7-Eleven in Asia is kind of like a CVS in America, plus a dry cleaner, plus a grocery store, plus a restaurant. It's just insane and it's still, it's also tiny like a gas station.

It's just everything is in there. Everything.

The other thing I love about 7-Elevens in Japan, one of the few places with a trash can. So if you ever have tr you know how you have to carry your trash with you in Japan? I did not know about that. Yeah, they don't have trash cans anywhere, huh? 'cause they don't want people creating waste like by bringing a ton of stuff with packaging or whatever.

And then they don't want people dropping it on the floor I guess, or whatever. So there's just no trash cans wherever you go. So you just put the trash in your pocket and go home. Yep. Ridiculous. Pretty much. Or maybe you bring it to work and they have trash cans at work, but we're not there for work, so we don't have those perks.

7-Eleven perks. Free lunch and a trash can so you can drop your garbage. They don't advertise this, but I realized it the last time I went. So whenever [00:10:00] you have a bunch of wrappers in your pocket or coffee tea cup or whatever and you don't know what to do, you just pop in a 7-Eleven. It's so great. That's, this is weird.

Well, we're gonna need some stories. You guys gonna do some feedback

Jordan Harbinger: Friday consults while you're there or what? That's all we're doing.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Actually. No Kabuki. No weird sex shows. Just straight feedback. Friday consults. Yeah, that's for two weeks.

Jordan Harbinger: A bummer or no sex shows. That's what I like to hear. If you're gonna Odysseus around the world with our star psychologist, I wanna know.

I wanna know. It's a DOS cruise, but you know, throw in a sex show, bro. So what's

Gabriel Mizrahi: the plan? Tokyo Hako, Kyoto Osaka, and Mount Koya. That's the part with Aaron, and then we'll see. Yeah, that's awesome. After that, I don't know, I might stay in Japan for a bit. I might hop somewhere else. I'm kind of making it up as I go.

Once again, Footloose and fancy free man. Oh, and if anyone listening lives in any of these cities, please email me or DM me on Instagram. I would love to meet up with you. We might also do a listener meetup in Tokyo or Kyoto or Osaka if we have some show family in those cities. So. If you're around, hit me up.

I would love to meet you guys. [00:11:00] Jen will also be in Japan for part of that. Oh yeah. You guys can hang out. You tell me. I gotta write her. Yep, absolutely. Yep. And I will try to post a bunch and I'll Yeah, I'm gonna tell you about all the funny stuff that happens. You know, maybe I'll FaceTime you from a hot spring.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, there you go. Thank you. I never felt more like, uh. Penelope, that's what is he's wife, right? Yeah. On FaceTime. That's hilarious. Waving a burial shroud out of listener

Gabriel Mizrahi: letters while you're off at sea. Then unraveling it at night so you can delay having to bury a new co-host.

Jordan Harbinger: This is the weirdest Greek epic ever.

Speaking of crazy myths, we got some fun ones. We got some doozies. Let's dive in. What is the first thing. Outta the mailbag.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Happy Friday, Jordan and Gabe. I was in a relationship with a beautiful lady about my age, and she brought two wonderful kids into the mix. Let's call her Jessica.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. He chose this name right, Gabe, I don't want any flack.

I

Gabriel Mizrahi: knew you were gonna jump on this. This is all him. I swear Jessica's don't at me. I wonder if you went with Jessica because he knows that it gets us into trouble. I think people are doing it on purpose by now. It's, it's kind of funny actually. We enjoyed a mostly [00:12:00] happy life up until my eyes were open to some unusual, disturbing behavior from her.

Ooh, man. The dues cruise

Jordan Harbinger: is hitting choppy water already. This is the emotionally equivalent of that Baltic cruise you took a few weeks ago.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Grab your drama, mean papa. Let's get into this. Yeah. Double dose. I knew she came from a troubled past, a narcissistic father and ex-husband. Her father married the lady he cheated on.

Her mom with her mother was then remarried to a wonderful man who I looked up to. Her ex was a grandiose narcissist, cheated on her constantly and caused many rifts with her, the kids and the rest of the family. It seemed She was following the same story as her mom meeting a well off kind man after a troubled marriage.

We hit it off almost immediately for our first meetup. She offered to come over to my house. I was honored that she trusted me so soon, but this also felt odd. Yeah, interesting data point. I also met the kids within a few weeks, which felt a little quick to me. I was joining them on an emotional journey [00:13:00] after a divorce, and saw much of the impulsive, abusive behavior their father gave them.

She didn't hold back on sharing everything about the process. When he and I met, he said he liked me and said I should run. Oh my God. He went on to say that she is manipulative and self-centered.

Jordan Harbinger: Holy smokes. That must have been quite a conversation, but it's also like very

Gabriel Mizrahi: confusing

Jordan Harbinger: coming from that.

You're a terrible person. Yeah. Maybe spare me. You know what though? This is alarming. Even if you think he's lying and trying to poison the Well, now that I think about it, because on the one hand it's like, okay, you're a grandiose narcissist who's divorcing this person? You'll say anything. But on the other hand, well, I don't know.

I think we can guess where the story's going.

Gabriel Mizrahi: My family and friends didn't get good vibes from her, and I ignored their feedback. I noticed strange behavior from her, including mood swings, impulsive purchasing, blurting things out, picking a fight for the sake of making up and so on.

Jordan Harbinger: This sounds like a Dr.

Scott Lyons case study. Remember the addiction to drama? Yes. On top of what it sounds like other mental health challenges. He's episode 836 by the way. He is a friend of mine and his book is called Addicted to [00:14:00] Drama, and this is what people they pick fights for the sake of making up is one of the things, by the way, Gabriel, I know you're with me on this.

How annoying would that particular behavior be like, I don't like fighting. So to fight about something that's fake so that you can get like positive attention from me, oh my god. I would put up with that for once or twice and then I'm

Gabriel Mizrahi: out. I am out. It's hard for me to even wrap my head around being in a relationship with someone like that.

Yeah, it's pretty disturbing. So he goes on all this felt odd, but given what she and her kids were going through, I gave her tons of grace and support.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, man, it's tough to hear about in retrospect. So I'm guessing you know this now, but none of what you're describing is it's not odd, it's more than that.

These are red flags, especially when you start looking at 'em, all put together. But I get it. When you can't see something clearly, it can sometimes just register as a little weird as opposed to like terrifying and a good reason to run in the opposite direction as quickly as possible.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Before the holidays a few years ago, her friend called Anne suggested that I [00:15:00] propose to her after a year and a half of dating.

Her friend suggested you pro.

Jordan Harbinger: Ah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Are you thinking she told her friend to tell him to propose?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's exactly what I'm thinking. And 'cause that's so weird, like, would you ever do that for some No. You would never be like, Hey, you should propose to so and so. That's just a weird high school that's like, you should ask out Jamie, she likes you.

Why are you telling me this, Nina, why? Why are

Gabriel Mizrahi: you talking to me about

Jordan Harbinger: this?

Gabriel Mizrahi: I was excited to propose I've never been engaged or married before. I was all in on these three and I couldn't wait to spend the rest of my life with them. When I asked Jessica's father for her hand in marriage, he exploded at me for 20 minutes trying to convince me not to do this.

Jordan Harbinger: Dude, her own father was telling you not to marry her, screaming at you to run for the hills. This is, do you

Gabriel Mizrahi: know how bad you have to be for your own parent to tell your future spouse run, like run for the hills?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I mean, look, there are bad parents and stuff, but like, this [00:16:00] is insane. This is the second time somebody closed to her has said this, when the ex told him to get out and he ignored him.

Okay, I got it. You know, and I know her dad's cut from the similar cloth, so it's not inconceivable that everyone's ganged up on her and treats her poorly, right? But when two people in someone's life tell you not to get involved with them. I think you at least gotta go, huh? What's that all about? Maybe I'll slow things down just a little bit and see if there's anything to this.

This is wild,

Gabriel Mizrahi: my goodness. But I stood my ground, told him I would love her forever and support her. He begrudgingly gave me his blessing. I bought a big ring and took her on vacation for her first Christmas away from the kids. Her ex had custody for that period. I planned to propose on Christmas day, but after seeing how down she was, I waited until the next day after an elaborate dinner, I got down on one knee and she said.

Sure. Okay.

Jordan Harbinger: That's the reaction you went when you bust out the ring and propose.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Fine. When you merge your family with mine and spend the rest of your life with me.

Jordan Harbinger: All right.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:17:00] What's for lunch? Sure. So this maybe supports the idea that she knew this was coming.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Zero surprise. Like, okay. I obviously saw this coming because I thought it would happen earlier.

'cause I told Jenny to call you two months ago.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's not the full story though because even if you knew it was coming, if you wanna marry this person, you should still be happy. Right? Like, but she was already down about something else 'cause she's got mental health issues. We spent the rest of the evening taking pictures and having a night out on the town and she was very indifferent about it and remained so for the rest of the trip.

Even buying a house with her was anti climactic. I typically got feedback from her that felt like you should have done these things long ago, or what should I be impressed? You want a cookie or something? Something always felt wrong living with her and her inconsistent mixed signals and confusing behavior.

Always left me in survival mode and I was constantly emotionally exhausted.

Jordan Harbinger: Even if you can't read specific red flags correctly, that something feels wrong here, kind of feeling, you gotta pay attention to that in [00:18:00] life. It could mean any number of things. Doesn't always mean the situation is doomed, but if you're feeling that way, there's a reason and you gotta slow down and listen to it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Then earlier this year, she nonchalantly told me, if you leave me. I will kill you.

Jordan Harbinger: What? That's actually really scary. How do you respond? It like, good to know. Okay. Noted. Thank you, sweetie.

Gabriel Mizrahi: What the hell? It didn't feel like much. I asked her what she meant by that and she said it was nothing.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it didn't feel like much.

If you leave me, I will kill you. Yeah, no big deal. Just threatening your life if you don't stick with her. And also, what's the context of that? Like past the mashed potatoes. Aren't these delicious, by the way, if you leave me, I will kill you. This is so weird.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's like, girl, I just gave you a ring.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Like what else

Gabriel Mizrahi: do

Jordan Harbinger: you want? Not planning on leaving you kind of the opposite. By the way. You didn't care when I did make that promise earlier, but cool.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Later on, on a family vacation, we had just had the best day of the trip fishing with the kids, spending an afternoon on the [00:19:00] beach and finishing the day at the resort pool.

The kids were swimming. I had just gotten us a pair of cocktails and I sat next to her. All of a sudden, out of the blue, a seriously terrifying look came into her eyes. Her face turned white, and she said, in a terrifying voice, if you leave me, I will kill you. Sorry, I'm not supposed to laugh at these, but it is a horror movie.

This is some bunny boiler ish man. Until that point, I had pumped all my love and everything else I had into the three of them and would never, ever leave them. I don't mean to be cruel, but this woman is nuts, man. Straight up, I started planning an exit. Should things get worse, probably a good idea. I discussed it with family and friends, and we put a strategy in place.

I bounced this plan off of two lawyers and mental health professionals, and all of them told me that I didn't know what kind of danger I was in, that I was making the right choice to protect my life and my peace. This is like domestic abuse stuff, right? You just don't, you don't say that out of the blue and then never do anything horrible.

My therapist asked me to read, stop Walking on Eggshells, and it helped validate my [00:20:00] feelings and identify her behavior as narcissism and borderline personality disorder.

Jordan Harbinger: That tracks great book. We plugged that on the show a bunch. It's changed a lot of people's lives.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Holy smokes, though. This woman, dang, for the next few weeks, her behavior intensified and I became more and more concerned.

She gave me a third equally intense threat out of the blue, and I knew it was time to get outta there. My family and I picked a day in July of this year to make the getaway when she was taking the kids to her parents a few hours away. Every time I thought about the kids, I would attempt to cancel, but then I remembered why we were where we were and I stuck with the plan.

That whole week I was anxious and struggled to keep my composure. I could barely even eat. Once I saw that they were at the house, I made the call and met my family at our house to pack my stuff. I killed the internet to shut off the cameras. But smart, she still saw what was going on. She had a redundant internet connection in the house.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh my God, dude, this is, so he, she [00:21:00] had an internet connection, which you didn't even know about. So not only was she creating a redundant internet connection for God knows what reason, maybe this exact reason, she was also proactively checking the cameras. I forgot about that part. Proactively checking the cameras in the house while she was away to see what you were up to.

Like deliberately.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh my God. She continued to call and text while we were packing. Even the kids were calling, meaning she made the kids call. Of course. Pull on those heartstrings. Once I got on the road and calmed down, I called her with my work phone and recorded the conversation. Her demeanor could best be described as the Sharon Stone interview scene from Basic Instinct, and it was disturbing.

JHS Trailer: I don't make any rules, Nick. I go with the flow.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I reflect back on her last marriage and wonder exactly how much did she contribute to the toxicity of that relationship.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, good question. That guy sounds like a piece of work too,

Gabriel Mizrahi: but I think it's very likely they were both a hot mess. My God, we were never married and didn't meet the standards of common [00:22:00] law marriage in our state of Texas.

So there was nothing to settle. But we did buy that house together with all of my equity and savings, splitting the mortgage, I make substantially more than her, so she reimbursed me for a third of the mortgage. She and her parents are proposing that I allow her and the kids to stay in the house until April or May of next year new while I pay the mortgage and she pays the utilities double new.

Come on. Neither of us can afford to live in the house on our own. So this poses a financial problem for me as I just got laid off. I'm staying with a buddy for cheap rent and am unable to move on. I pled my case to her and her stance is that I chose to leave and should bear the brunt of this as a result.

No, her mom and stepfather are extremely well off and could support her and her kids, but are reluctant to do so. Wonder why I told her that the money is not there to support her plan and we must act urgently to get her and the kids into a new place before the holidays. She also works a mostly full-time job, not making much.

So I feel deep down that I'm putting them in a precarious [00:23:00] situation and I feel much Gelt over this after all the kids and I had a wonderful relationship and I feel like a failure to them. Being the second man to walk out on them.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh man. I have so many thoughts, but I'll hold off for now. This is very intense.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Looking back on the past four years, I now see so many red flags, the impulsive behavior, her educating me about narcissistic behavior, only to use the same tactics on me, her trash talking me behind my back, my people and her father and ex warning me about her. She also made it extremely difficult to have conversations about my needs and other difficult but essential topics by shutting the conversation down, gaslighting me or shaming me for bringing things up.

While insert calamity of the week was going on. She often made me feel like I had narcissistic tendencies. When I ask for feedback from family, friends, and my therapist, they say Yes, I do have some of these qualities as I'm an energetic, motivated person who loves to lead people. That I don't have the [00:24:00] qualities that are damaging to other people.

Dude, so much going on here. Am I right to feel this way? Well, which way? Unclear. I think he means guilty about leaving her and the kids fend for themselves and like angry at her for all of this. I got it. I mean, so his whole view of the relationship probably, man, yes, I think so. Am I handling this correctly?

What options do I have to settle the house before Q2 of next year? That would leave both of us in a comfortable situation signed. Trying my best to refill and stay on top of my bills when my ex threatened to kill after I neglected to run for the hills.

Jordan Harbinger: I need a minute. 'cause that was a ride. That drama mean kicking in yet?

Or I gotta take, I gotta pop another one. I am seasick. All right, where to begin? I'm very sorry that you went through all this. This is awful. Everything you've described sounds incredibly stressful. Upsetting, terrifying, destabilizing, sad. I can't even imagine what the last few years have been like for you.

Man, my heart is pounding over here. I wasn't even in this relationship, [00:25:00] man, the things you've been through, but honestly, despite all of the disturbing stuff your ex did, I kind of feel bad for her. Hear me out. This woman obviously had some very significant trauma, probably tied to the narcissistic father.

God knows what else. You don't end up, you don't threaten to kill your fiance if he leaves you, if you don't have some serious wounds. Personality disorders, if that's what's going on here, which it sure sounds like it is. They're kind of all caused by trauma in one form or another. Right? Yeah. Now she obviously has a responsibility to address all this stuff.

It doesn't sound like she's doing that, but I do feel for her to some degree. I'm also aware, and you are too, which I'm glad to hear that you chose this partner. You stuck with her. You overlooked a lot of red flags. You participated in this relationship. It's very clear that she brought a lot of dysfunction and chaos into your relationship, but you also co-created the situation with her, if only by putting up with it and advancing your relationship, when there were some really darn good reasons to take a huge step back or just get out [00:26:00] entirely.

Why you did that, that's now your work to do. We just have to acknowledge that too. So yeah, as you can tell, I think you're absolutely right to feel this way about your ex and getting out. As anxiety provoking as that was, I definitely think that was the right move. It is super sad that you had to secretly pack your things and leave while she was outta the house, that you didn't get to explain this to the kids and have a proper goodbye.

As much as I think your ex is a bit of a looney tune, that must have been painful for those kids.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But when a person with a track record of mental health issues is saying, if you leave me, I will kill you. I don't know what other option you have. You have to leave.

Jordan Harbinger: Agreed. I just, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that she would've snapped and tried to stab you in the kitchen one night or something.

It sucks, but I get it. Yeah. Basically what I'm saying is your anger, your shock, your hurt, and your disgust, all of it. It all makes perfect sense to me. What I'm not so sure about, well, it's complicated, but I'm not so sure about the Gelt you feel about abandoning her kids. Like I said, I think it's [00:27:00] pretty clear she's primarily responsible for blowing up the relationship and depriving her kids of a solid stepdad.

'cause she wants the house and these are her kids. She needs to figure out how to support these kids.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. With their father's help, I mean, that's their responsibility.

Jordan Harbinger: Once she made it impossible for you to safely stay, they're just not your responsibility anymore.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. But I'm also keeping in mind, like you just said, he did choose to get involved with her.

Right? He went along with this accelerated timeline where he met the kids very quickly and he developed a relationship with them and they went on vacations together. He proposed to her, I mean their whole plan was to be a family.

Jordan Harbinger: I hear you. He agreed to be their stepdad. They were becoming a family. Gabe, maybe I'm just super cynical.

Do we think maybe she escalated things super quickly because she wanted to put him in that position as fast as possible? Oh man. I mean, she is manipulative and crazy. It's possible anyway, given the stark facts here, all the ways that your ex failed to take care of herself, be a healthy partner, treat you well, make this relationship successful, not threatened to murder you if you [00:28:00] leave, et cetera.

I don't think the Gelt is entirely warranted, man. But at the same time, I do get why you feel it. So my hope for you is that this Gelt starts to evolve a little bit. Maybe over time it'll become something closer to sadness for those kids. I do think that's appropriate because it is sad. Their mom drove away the best male presence that are probably ever going to have in their life.

Their grandpa sucks, their dad sucks, and you don't get to be in their lives anymore. But that's different from feeling entirely responsible for them and for this whole debacle, which is what produces this Gelt, and now you're putting yourself in a terrible position because of them.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And that sense of responsibility, which might go back quite a long way, might be one of the things that explains how he ended up in this relationship.

Generally speaking, I think we both feel that you're handling this correctly at this point, mostly by getting out and protecting yourself. That had to be priority number one, and the way that you've sought out friends and colleagues, lawyers, and a therapist. That is all terrific. I think that's crucial.

I'm glad you're surrounding yourself with this kind of counsel. Despite everything we're saying about your ex, I do think you have a lot of important work to do now on doing the full postmortem on this [00:29:00] relationship, figuring out how you ended up here, how your own history played a role in all of this.

How you responded to your ex along the way, why it was so hard to clock these signs and understand what they mean. The trauma that you have been through in this relationship because you have been through some stuff, all of that. You haven't shared a ton about your own therapy here, but I would say that this processing needs to be a big part of how you're quote unquote handling this.

Jordan Harbinger: As for the question of the house, the best advice I can give you there is talk to a family lawyer slash divorce attorney. Talk to an accountant, get a real estate agent. Let them guide you. I don't know what you owe your ex and her kids legally speaking. It sounds like not much. If you still need to sell this house and you're the only one on the deed, which I'm praying you are, then put it on the market and keep moving forward.

Uh, again, I'm no divorce lawyer, but I'm pretty sure allowing them to live there is a huge mistake. They could refuse to move out. Then you've got squatters or some sort of weird forced tenant relationship that doesn't cover your costs. This is gonna get a lot messier, and I think that she's

Gabriel Mizrahi: counting on that, honestly.

And [00:30:00] meanwhile, her parents could support all of them, but they want him to let her live in the house he paid for practically rent free. That's not right, dude. Yes.

Jordan Harbinger: This is a terrible situation for him. It's clear that the parents are like, Hey, we can get this sucker to subsidize their life and then we don't have to pay for them.

What do we care if he ends up on the hook for all their expenses? Because they live in his house. They don't care about you, man, and it gives me no pleasure to point out that you are allowing this to happen.

Gabriel Mizrahi: There's just one more thing we need to talk about here, which is this narcissism piece.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

There's so much narcissism in this story, so much. I know that word gets thrown around a lot, but his ex's dad has it. The ex has it. Our friend thinks she has it, and she's saying that he has it. Everybody's on everybody narcissism. Uh, but he's going, my family, my friends, my therapist, they're all saying I have some qualities that are narcissistic.

Mm-hmm. I'm energetic, I'm motivated. I love to lead people, but I'm not a capital N narcissist.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. I'm not a malignant narcissist. So he feels that his narcissism, if it exists, is more of the healthy variety, or it's at [00:31:00] least like benign.

Jordan Harbinger: Benign, yeah. Which, look, I, that could totally be the case. We only have his story to go on here.

Of course. So there's that. But I'm not hearing anything that screams NPD in the letter.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't think I am either. And yet, as you keep pointing out, his stuff did intersect with her stuff Right. In all sorts of ways. And I do wonder if some of his narcissism, which I, I wanna be very clear, I'm not talking about the narcissism that we all have.

Not like a malignant narcissism. Mm-hmm. His narcissism might be more pronounced than in other people, even if it's not dangerous. And it might've still played a role in their relationship. Interesting. How so? Well, I guess I'm speculating and reading between the lines here, so I, I could be off, but it might've made him want to play the savior for this woman and her kids.

That sense of responsibility that we just talked about might plug into this narcissism in some way, might feed it. It might've made it very difficult for him to consider giving up this source of gratification and validation if he were to leave. It might've been hard for him to cut his losses sooner [00:32:00] because, you know, like recognizing his flaws and mistakes and getting involved with her might've been too wounding or too shameful.

Might have made it hard for him to hear her father and ex when they told him to run. Even this leadership quality of his, which is a virtue in so many ways that might have given him, I don't know, maybe an inflated sense of his own power to make this very difficult untenable relationship, ultimately succeed

Jordan Harbinger: until literally his life is threatened.

And he is like, actually maybe I'm a little bit above my pay grade

Gabriel Mizrahi: here, which is kind of the ultimate narcissistic injury. Yeah. Right. I could see that. So I tread lightly, or I really do. I'm not trying to pathologize qualities that might be mostly great, especially in, uh, you know, professional context.

But this narcissism exists in, in all of us. And if we're talking about tendencies that are narcissistic. Then these might be some good ones to look at right now.

Jordan Harbinger: You know, now that we're talking about this, Gabe, he said something else early on that I'm now hearing in a new way. It was that part where he said it seemed she was following the same story as her mom meeting a well off kind man after a troubled marriage.

Like I'm, [00:33:00] I'm the hero, I'm the captain. Save Aho over here. Like did you say Captain Save Aho? You never heard that. It's when you try and rescue someone and the other meme is you see somebody who's like actually crazy like on Reddit. Like she's jumping on the hood of a car and smashing the windshield with her bare fist and like the top comment is always I can fix her.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Wow. Captain Save Aho on the DO'S Cruise over here. That's right. Yep. That might explain a few things.

Jordan Harbinger: So I think it's pretty clear our friend here is kind, he did a lot of kind things, especially for these kids. As far as we know, and I'm guessing, look, I'll take his word for it, that he is, or he was well off.

I mean, he did have enough money to buy a house, although later he said he was having financial problems. So I'm a little confused about that. He did get laid off that can, you know, that stings, that puts a dent in the pocketbook. But is there something vaguely narcissistic about that narrative too? Like she was gonna do the same thing her mom did.

Get out of an awful relationship and start one with me. A great guy who's well off and super nice. I don't know. Yeah, fair question. The [00:34:00] detail stands out to me now

Gabriel Mizrahi: extra. It's like his conceptualization of the relationship and the narrative that he Yeah, I, I could see that there's a glimmer of narcissism somewhere in there.

I'm also curious about how he heard some of the things she said. Remember when he was like, I typically got feedback from her that felt like you should have done these things a long time ago, or. What should I be impressed? You want a cookie or something? Yeah, good point. Did those go through a narcissistic lens as well?

I don't know. I don't know. But he's not saying that she actually said those things. He's saying that it felt like that's what she was saying, which look, who knows, maybe she was saying those things.

Jordan Harbinger: I mean, if her response to the proposal was any indication, I wouldn't be too surprised.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But it might also be good for him to reflect on how he interpreted those words and that behavior.

Because I have to imagine that these statements also went through the lens of his beliefs, his self-concepts, his life experience, and yes, perhaps this narcissism. And they either failed to chime with what he believed to be true of himself. So he's like, no, I gotta prove her wrong. Or they revealed some tender [00:35:00] spots underneath this narcissism and that might have equated to what you want A cookie.

Jordan Harbinger: That description did strike me as a little, I don't know, editorialized somehow.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, you know, the ego is a powerful editor, right? So whether she really meant those things or not, maybe that motivated him to prove her wrong, but there's something in there for him to consider

Jordan Harbinger: solid theory. Look, we can't know for sure.

Think maybe there's something to that all part of the post relationship work that I think he needs to be doing. We could talk about this for the rest of the episode. This was a saga, but I hope that gives you a few new angles here. Man, I think you did the right thing in getting out. I think your read on all of this is generally correct.

I also think you had to have this relationship in order to learn some crucial stuff about yourself. And if you do, then you'll avoid a relationship like this again. It only become a better leader and human being. I'm sorry things went down this way. I'm sorry that you lost your job. I'm sorry about the house stress, but I know you'll solve these more tactical problems one way or the other.

In the meantime, it's all learning. Take care of yourself, bud, and good luck, [00:36:00] Gabe. I really think they're pushing Gelt on him to get him to let leave them the house, right? Like this is your fault for leaving me, so now you have to make it right. It's like, no, you threatened to kill me. I don't owe you anything.

Certainly not the ability to live in my house, essentially rent free with your kids. Like I think this is a manipulative trick 'cause she knows he feels bad, so she's like, I'm just gonna keep poking that 'cause I need a place to live and this guy's gonna pay for it even though it's not good for him.

Sadly, you might be right. Yeah, it really looks like that to me. All right. Listen everybody, if you fast forward through these ads, I will kill you. This episode is sponsored in part by BetterHelp. When I used to live in Michigan, my winters, they were just brutal. It's not the cold that was bad enough, but the just total lack of sunlight, it's dark by 5:00 PM Maybe even earlier, I'd start to feel that seasonal depression creeping in.

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Now back to Feedback Friday.

Gabriel Mizrahi: What's next? Hi guys. My husband is a teacher working toward his certification. He didn't get a degree in teaching. Instead, he did a post-education program to become a teacher after he didn't like the jobs he was getting with a marketing degree. He's passionate about education and has poured his heart into this career, but right now he's being physically assaulted by a student in his classroom.

These aren't isolated incidents. They've happened multiple times. The student was kicked out of three different schools last year. He did the right thing and reported it to the principal, but he was basically told tough luck, no action from the school, no support, nothing. It's like they expect them to just absorb the hits and keep teaching.

He feels as though he is not getting taken seriously. If that's true. That is [00:40:00] super uncool. That is wild. Yeah. Sorry. This kid is slowly escalating to shing you in the cafeteria, but you have testosterone, so you're on your own. My man. What? Seriously. I mean, women

Jordan Harbinger: also have

Gabriel Mizrahi: testosterone, but

Jordan Harbinger: I know what you're, I know what you're trying to say.

You, sorry Mr. Thompson, but we all know bullets hurt less when you're a dude. Maybe start taking, take Kav MAGA that you can't use on a student because you're not allowed to fight back and focus on your lesson plan.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Unbelievable. He works at a charter school, so there's no union. The worst part is he's terrified that if he escalates this, maybe by calling the police, he'll get fired with no other schools hiring in our area in Michigan that could derail his entire certification process.

He's so close to finishing those required hours and years. But at what cost to his safety, it feels like he's trapped between protecting himself and saving his dream job. Are there any real strategies available to us? Are there any legal protections or ways to document this without blowing up his future?

Could you share any advice or even just point us toward resources for teachers who are in this [00:41:00] bind? Signed debating whether to dwell and quell, yell and raise hell or just wait for the bell without sounding the death. Now for a career my guy loves, well,

Jordan Harbinger: this is crazy man. It's crazy what teachers are expected to put up within this day and age and still teach.

Yeah, sorry. Your pay is crap. We're gonna allow this kid to assault you. Something that would never be allowed literally anywhere else in society. You can't do

Gabriel Mizrahi: that. Good point. I didn't even think about that. Imagine if you just went to an office job and there was a guy who would like punch you in the face every fifth day and they're like, yeah, it's just part of the job.

Sorry. Why?

Jordan Harbinger: You can literally face criminal consequences. If you are an MMA fighter fighting another MMA fighter and you punch them or do something wrong at the wrong time, that is still criminal assault. If you're a boxer and you bite someone or you kick them, it's criminal assault. But if you do it in a school, it's, well, sorry.

Yeah, no, she's a tough cookie. You really gotta watch out for her. She's a biter. She'll claw your eyes out. What planet am I on?

Gabriel Mizrahi: But it's also 'cause there are children, but the problem is that. Putting this off, not doing anything is also [00:42:00] doing a disservice to this kid. He either needs to live with the consequences of what he's doing to his teacher, or he needs serious intervention, but instead they're just letting him remain in the classroom and cause mayhem so nobody's getting served.

Exactly.

Jordan Harbinger: How did this kid even end up getting into this charter school? This is insane. Also, Gabe, I, I wonder if the student's a girl. We don't know. Right.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's interesting. Yeah. She's not, uh, clarifying that, but I assumed it was a, a boy. I know. Just 'cause

Jordan Harbinger: of the violence. But also it's like if a male student assaults a teacher, it's like, of course that hurts.

It's a man punching you. But if it's a female student just slapping you, it might just be like, yeah, she's annoying and she's outta control. Huh? It's possible. Tough cookie. She, that one. It's possible objectively if you're getting punched by another man who, even if they are a teenager. Or whatever. It still hurts.

It's hard to say. I'm speculating though, that it might be a female. 'cause whenever females assault men, even adults, it's just kind of like, oh, well she slapped you, doesn't give you the right to do anything. And it's like, well actually, um, I'm still got assaulted and, and beat up.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's true.

Jordan Harbinger: Anyway, we wanted to run your story by an expert.

So we reached out to [00:43:00] Neil Rombardo, in-house counsel for a large school district with approximately 8,000 employees, and the first thing Neil said was, he feels awful for your husband. It is a really tough place to be. The second thing he said was, and now you know that I'm not the only attorney who knows this is crucial.

He said, your husband should absolutely document every single incident with this student and every discussion he has with his administrator about it. If the school fails to take steps to protect your husband, Neil said that he might have a lawsuit. That was my first thought as well. Like, oh, you told your boss and they said, tough luck.

Well, that sounds like a juicy lawsuit, but Neil's honest take is he always recommends against lawsuits because yeah, you hear about people making large sums of money and the ads on tv, right? But those are 1% of the cases. In his experience, and as he puts it, litigation is a long, difficult process that takes an emotional toll on everybody except the lawyers who take large sums from plaintiffs.

And I totally concur. Instead, Neil said that your husband could use the documentation we were just talking about to report this charter school's issues [00:44:00] to the Michigan Department of Education. From what he could tell, that's the agency that oversees charters. Now, Neil recognizes that this could result in him losing his job, but in his view, this school is ultimately failing him and this student by not addressing these behavioral issues.

And so the question for Neil is, does he really wanna work at a place that treats employees and students like this? Also if he decides to report this to the Michigan Department of Education, Neil said he would probably have whistleblower status. And the cool thing about whistleblower status is it would protect his job.

Neil said that it's usually a simpler process to get reinstated as a whistleblower and to even potentially get damages than it is to file a lawsuit.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Another thing Neil said you should consider is whether this student is a special education student or a general education student. And also how old is this kid?

He said that if the child is in special ed, there are many strategies available to your husband. For one thing, the school should have taught him proper holds to protect himself. And the student, which I'm guessing is different from K Maga, [00:45:00] like, uh, some special technique, uh, that's designed to like, you probably can't hammer fist the kid in the face.

I think that's a K MAGA movie. I'm guessing that's probably not on the table. Second, the student could receive what's called a functional behavioral assessment to see what triggers this child. And after the FBA, the school, along with the teacher, should set up a plan to address those triggers. Neil said that's usually done with what's called a board certified behavioral analyst, A-B-C-B-A.

If the student has extreme behaviors, they could be placed in a social intervention program, which is like a class with more aids, more supports and criminal charges could be available, although Neil strongly discourages that unless things really escalate. So we understand that this is a charter school, but Neil said that the law requires them to support special education students the same way as traditional public schools.

But the thing is, if this student is in special ed, then the law ultimately favors the student staying in the least restrictive environment. Now, if the child is general education, Neil said that [00:46:00] the school should provide what's called multi-tiered systems of support services to address this kid's behaviors.

And the school should also work with his kid's parents, by the way, to address these issues with the student, both at home and in the classroom. So Neil said that the student could also be moved to an alternative setting and or even expelled from school and have to take homeschool classes. Also, if he is a general education student.

Then Neil said that criminal charges would be more appropriate, but again, kind of depends on this kid's age. Bottom line though Neil said that your husband's school should be providing these supports with him and not just leaving it up to him to deal with the student on his own and fend for himself.

Jordan Harbinger: That makes a ton of sense. So those are your options, friend. I'm very sorry your husband is going through this. It must be very scary to regularly be assaulted by a student and to have your principal just throw their hands up like, well, sorry, nothing we can do about it. Maybe bring a bat to school. Oh, by the way, you can't use it.

It's insane. It's ridiculous. I hope your husband finds a way forward here, or just decides to leave and finds another job that will allow him to finish his certification. He sounds very [00:47:00] passionate about education and the system really needs people like him. So we are rooting for him. I hope he stays safe and we're wishing you all the best.

Gabe, it's insane to me that this kid gets kicked out of multiple schools and they're just like, well, you put up with it 'cause you don't really have any leverage. It's like, how about I sue the shit outta all you guys? How's that sound, pal? Unbelievable. You can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Keep your emails concise.

Try to use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're finding dead squirrels in your mailbox, your stepdad's got your nudes, your neighbors are eavesdropping on your therapy sessions through the wall, or your ex has just dropped the bomb that she secretly felt coerced into sleeping together during your marriage, whatever's got you staying up at night lately.

Hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. By the way, our newsletter, if you haven't signed up yet, wee bit wiser is a bite-sized gem from a past episode from us to you delivered right to your inbox on most Wednesdays. If you wanna keep up with the wisdom from the show, it is a great companion to the show as well.

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Gabriel Mizrahi: All right, next up. Dear Jordan and Gabe, my parents are in their late seventies and I'm trying to convince them to sell their paid off condo and purchase a smaller, more accessible house. While financially it makes sense, selling the condo would give them more than enough capital to buy a new, smaller home outright.

They are incredibly resistant to the idea. Their main concerns seem to be the quote unquote hassle of selling and the prospect of having to pay more in property tax as their condo retains a lower appraisal value. However, the condo presents several growing problems that will only worsen with age. One of them is stairs.

They currently have to walk up three flights of stairs to reach their unit and then another internal flight of stairs to access the second floor of their condo. This is already a significant struggle for them. Their laundry facilities are coin operated and located in a common area that's a five minute walk from their unit.

This is becoming increasingly difficult to manage. I'm worried about their long-term wellbeing and safety in this [00:49:00] environment. As they continue to age, these physical challenges will become insurmountable, potentially leading to falls or isolation. Also, big factors. Yeah, my brother and I have brought this up to my parents a few times, but it was met with the property tax and hassle excuse.

I offered to help mention to them that I have a real estate agent and offered my knowledge since I recently purchased a house with my wife. My mom's usual response is, I'll think about it, but no action is taken afterwards, and I have to bring it up again. We haven't had a formal sit down with the family, so that might help, but this feels like an endless cycle.

What should we say? How do we approach this? If we do any advice on how to address their fears about the selling process or property taxes? Do you have any suggestions, psychological approaches or practical ideas on how to navigate this conversation and help them see the benefits of making this move now before it becomes an emergency signed?

Trying to be fair. Not sink into despair when my parents declare that they don't [00:50:00] need my care, even though I'm prepared for the day they're so impaired that they won't climb the stairs, which is a timeline I cannot bear.

Jordan Harbinger: Good question. Filing this one under how to convince well-meaning, but frustrating family members to do what they should be doing.

Anyway, so tough. Yeah. This general category of letters is really tough. Exactly. I think when you, whenever you encounter this kind of resistance or avoidance, it's always because underneath there's fear.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yep.

Jordan Harbinger: Fear of change. Fear of the unknown. Fear of it not working out, fear of it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: They're gonna do it and it's gonna go sideways.

Exactly.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. If you're gonna make real progress here, I think it's gonna be by getting to that route, helping them acknowledge it, making them feel safe to trust you to help them through it. So there's two basic approaches here. Approach. One is you gently bring this up over and over in different ways until your parents finally realize that this is the right solution, that you're gonna take care of them, that they can do this.

And if that works, amazing problem is there's no guarantee they will. I know how parents like this are, right? Okay. They're probably [00:51:00] saying, yeah, we'll think about it, but they're not thinking about it. They're just hoping you won't bring it up again, and that it will just never be a problem, which is ridiculous.

That's not gonna serve anybody. Approach. Two, you turn up the heat, maybe you go dark, Jordan. Well, you know, little gray, Jordan. It's funny. Back when I worked in sales, I got really into sales techniques and I learned about this idea. Anybody who's worked in sales is gonna know what I'm talking about. I think it was called, it's like take them through the pain or take 'em to the pain, or something like that.

The idea is basically get the customer, get the potential customer to see how bad things are and or how bad things are gonna get if they don't buy your product. So you walk them through that nightmare, vividly, step by step, and you get them into a kind of low grade fear spiral or maybe not so low grade.

And then you hand them the solution, which is your product or service, like ta-da. Fear solved. Like it's manipulative, it's self-serving. It works in sales really well and when it's legit. So if this is a real thing, like you're not just making up some reason for them to be afraid when the customer [00:52:00] really will be in a world of pain.

If they don't buy your product or service, it's great for everyone. Then it's just good salesmanship when they won't. It's gross and manipulative and not cool. But that's a whole other topic, that ethics thing. So you could take your parents to the pain and what that means in this context is you just gotta paint a very vivid picture for them of what's gonna happen if they stay in this condo as they age, financially, physically, emotionally.

What is it gonna be like for them to have to live there as they slow down? What is it gonna be like for you to have to help them? How hard is it gonna be to climb those stairs? You wanna go to the bathroom? Cool. I hope you don't mind getting a full body workout on the way up those stairs or back down.

How taxing is it gonna be to do the laundry so far away? Oh, you wanted clean clothes? All right. Get your shoes on. Get your jacket on. It's snowy and icy out there. Make sure you got quarters. Oh, you gotta go to the bank and get 'em. Okay. Have fun with that. It's a whole day activity now to do your freaking laundry.

Wow. How awful is it to break your hip in the stairwell at 87 and no one finds you [00:53:00] for three hours and maybe you have to go to the hospital and then you have to have hip replacement surgery. And you know, how quickly do old people decline and simply die? When that happens? How much money are you gonna have to give up when you finally decide to sell?

Oh, the market's down. Oh, well you can't walk, so you have to sell now. Sorry. Or if they have to do a quick sale because somebody's really down and out or they need the money. I mean, it's, this is all just, you've gotta bring them through this and they're gonna, they're gonna realize that they're staying in a comfortable spot and it's way worse than where they should be.

How guilty are they gonna feel about putting all this on you? How much harder is it gonna be to adjust to a new home in another five or 10 years? Think about that. The fact that they're hurting you by not letting you be a good son and help them right now, how they're gonna call you and say, you were right.

I wish we'd listened to you. Why didn't you get through to us back then? I'm starting to see why you were so good at sales

Gabriel Mizrahi: back

Jordan Harbinger: then.

Gabriel Mizrahi: This is brutal. I would also

Jordan Harbinger: do this all over, like months and months of time, and it was just like, wow, brutal. And then I'd bring 'em back up and feel good. Yeah, there's a lot to it.

Anyway, any pain point you can think of, bring it in. Embrace your [00:54:00] inner sales, dark Jordan, gray Jordan, take your sweet aging parents to the pain.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, yeah, shamelessly coerce them into doing the right thing. That is, that is an option. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Shamelessly coerced them into doing the right thing. Exactly.

Look, is this kind of manipulative? Yes. I mean that, it depends, right? Is is getting someone to do something that's in their own best interest, manipulative, I don't know. Oh, good

Gabriel Mizrahi: point. It's interesting.

Jordan Harbinger: All of this is potentially true. You know, if they won't listen to reason, you might have to motivate them with fear, or both, hopefully

Gabriel Mizrahi: or both.

Yeah. First the pain, then the love. I would try to work both angles.

Jordan Harbinger: I would also definitely do the group conversation. You haven't tried yet. I'm always a big fan of that. I think it'll be a lot harder for your parents to ignore the reality here. If their kids and siblings and nephews and nieces are going, this is crazy.

You have to find a new place. We're all gonna make sure it goes smoothly. Everyone's gonna help you move. This is a brilliant idea. Look at all

Gabriel Mizrahi: these voices that. Think you should do this. I would also turn this into baby steps as much as possible. So when you go to your parents and you say, I want you guys to downsize.

I want you to move homes. That is very [00:55:00] big. That's abstract and that's very scary. But if you go, Hey, I don't need you to make any decisions right now, but why don't we just go look at a few condos this Sunday. I'll pick you up. We'll have a fun day. We'll grab lunch. Let's just see if anything looks good to us.

You know, that's harder for them to say no to.

Jordan Harbinger: Totally. And if they do say no, then it's easier for you to say, okay, but mom, dad, you're not even open to talking about this. I'm just asking you to spend a few hours with me looking at condos.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Does that seem fair? And then when they see a place that they like, they'll be able to imagine this move a lot more.

Clearly. It won't be. Give up your home, you know, and love for the unknown. It'll be, let's get you into that place you're really excited about.

Jordan Harbinger: Bingo. I feel like this is also a sales technique closing by a thousand tiny steps. So my parents didn't really wanna move. I didn't have to do this. Take them to the pain.

Crazy thing. Well, I kind of did actually. Um, they didn't wanna move. We asked it over and over and over. We told them all the benefits. You're gonna be close to us. You're gonna be close to the kids, you'll see the grandkids every day. It'll be great. California. There's no winter, yada yada from Michigan, right?

And it married it for months and months and months. Then it was, [00:56:00] oh, look how big the kids are getting. It's so fast. They're only gonna be young once they see the other grandma and grandpa every day. And they're so close. Wow. Do they remember? Are they gonna remember you? When you come to visit for Christmas?

Winter's coming up. Are you ready to deal with that nightmare all over again? Dad, do you need a new snowblower? 'cause I know that at your age it's really hard to shovel the driveway every single day. Should I hire a snowplow service for you guys? What about a landscaper? You got a big lawn, somebody gonna cut that.

You shouldn't be doing that yourself. You're gonna get sunburned again. Why don't you come here for just a few months and see how you like. Just skipping winter entirely. And then all of a sudden they were like, we're moving. Another thing I did was I was like, guys, can you do me a favor? Since you're not moving, can you really organize all your files in the basement?

Because when you guys are like 90 and I have to take a bunch of time off of work and away from my family and fly back to Michigan and do all of this by myself, it'll just be a little bit easier. And they were like, oh, let's just do this now piecemeal. And it took [00:57:00] months for them to clean out everything and donate everything and organize everything, but they did it themselves.

There was an avalanche of, yeah, Gelt and pain and persuasion and that. Now they're like, oh, we're so glad we moved out here. It's like, Jesus, you totally took them to the pain. Hell yeah. Well played papa. But look, even if you use these salesy techniques, I would keep meeting your parents with a ton of love, patience, empathy.

This is obviously very hard for them. Like you said, it's ultimately about fear, and fear is paralyzing. So while you take them to the pain, I would also keep reassuring them that you know how hard this is. You appreciate that they're trusting you to guide them. You're not gonna let things go sideways. You know this is gonna be the right move for everybody.

So they don't just feel pressured, they also feel supported. Your parents are super lucky to have you looking out for them. I hope they can take in your advice and good luck. You know what's more fun than falling down a couple flights of stairs. Gabriel enjoying the deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show.

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Jordan Harbinger: If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and you find our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do that is take a moment and support the amazing sponsors They make this show possible. All of the deals, discounts, and ways to support the show are searchable and clickable on the website at Jordan harbinger.com/deals.

If that doesn't work, you can always email us, jordan@jordanharbinger.com. We'll dig up the codes for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show. Now back to Feedback Friday. Now for the recommendation of the week. [01:02:00]

Lip Filler Clip: I am addicted to lip filler.

Jordan Harbinger: I recommended a battery a long time ago, but it was kind of big.

Not everybody wanted to spend, I think a couple hundred bucks on a battery. There's another one I love and I have multiple of, and it's by anchor. We'll link to it in the show notes. Of course, it's got a plug on it, so it's not just a battery, it's a charger. It's got A-U-S-B-C outlet on it, so you can plug in your phone.

But what I really love about this is it has a little lanyard on it, so you can carry it on your wrist if you need to or, or hang it on something. And that lanyard is also a built-in USBC cable, so you don't have to have a separate cable. You can if you want to, and it can charge two things that once while it's plugged in, and then it's a battery when it's not plugged in.

I use it constantly. It is a great product. It's on sale right now. Again, I'll link it in the show notes. There's multiple colors. I got one from my parents. I just, I'm in love with this thing. It is so handy to have, and when I first got a separate battery, I was like, I'm never gonna use this. And it's been one of the things that I just use constantly, especially when I'm on the go.

If I'm not home all day, I just use [01:03:00] this thing every time I travel, every time I'm in a hotel, I can't kinda live without this thing. So highly recommend looking at it. Damn, I'm gonna need one of these, I think from the travels and they're like 35 bucks. Like it's, this is not a heavy lift. This is such an easy grab one or grab one for you and one for your spouse or whatever, one for your friend.

It's such a great product. I highly recommend these. I can't overstate that. So go grab one of those. Also, in case you don't know, there's a subreddit for our show. If you wanna jump into discussions with other listeners about specific episodes, if there's an episode, you like an episode, you hate it, well, you can keep that to yourself.

But anyway, there's a lot of fun conversations going on on the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. So if you're a redditer, come join us.

Gabriel Mizrahi: All right, what's

Jordan Harbinger: next?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm 14 years old and early this year I caught COVID for the first time. My family managed to avoid it until we all caught it in one fell swoop.

The worst of the symptoms lasted about two days, but the fatigue has lasted for months. The fatigue was so bad I could barely function some days and on better [01:04:00] days, all I wanted to do was lay down and let the earth slowly reclaim me. Brutal. In summary, long COVID is a bitch. Then symptoms of anxiety and depression came about making functioning all the more impossible.

I had anxiety about whether I would be able to survive the day. The thought was always in the back of my head and it spiked when my fatigue was particularly bad. But when I rested, I felt depressed that I wasn't able to accomplish anything that day. I'm a perfectionist and I'm used to achieving expectations that others and I place on myself.

Fatigue made, failing these expectations common and I would spiral. Tough cycle. Yeah. By the end of the school year, I got a therapist. During summer break, I was able to recover a bit. I established a routine that helped with my lack of motivation and depression, and because the days were generally easy, my anxiety went down.

My parents who were also affected with long COVID gave me tips that helped me start to recover. Then the new school year started and so did a wave of fatigue. [01:05:00] It's not as bad as last time because I have tools to keep the anxiety and depression at bay. I'm proud to say that anxiety has not been a problem so far, but I'm struggling to find a new normal.

The schoolwork isn't hard, so we can cross that off the list. My guess is that I'm putting too much energy into my social life. I've tried to be better about acting how I feel like acting tired when I'm tired. I don't wanna shut down. I like my friends. They're the only reason school is bearable. I'm just so exhausted.

How do I manage my fatigue? How do I go from just barely surviving life to enjoying it again? Can I ever go back to normal? And Gabe, if you could do the honors of the longest sign off possible, that would make my day. I'm really not loving this becoming a thing. Yeah, the sign off's about to be longer than her.

COVID.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I'm gonna take a COVID nap while you read this. Get some Zs. I gotta be refreshed for my response. See you guys in 40 minutes.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Signed a teen who's keen to be an absolute machine, but is now chugging caffeine and clinging to a [01:06:00] routine because even the vaccine couldn't shake these symptoms that are mean obscene and unforeseen.

How can I succeed in this in-between without going missing from the scene while I'm catching these Zs, all because of this damn spike protein.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay, I'm back. I had the weirdest dream while I was over here snoozing Gabe, I dreamt that you kept the sign off short and I had to run back early to answer the question.

All right, so interesting story. First of all, I'm sorry you've been dealing with long COVID. I understand it's pretty rare. It's like six or 7% of people get it, but it's definitely, this is a real thing. I, I was initially like, uh, psychosomatic. But a lot of people that I know I'm friends with that are not susceptible to just being highly suggestible people.

They have it and they say it's really debilitating. These are go-getters, overachievers, and they're like, I just can't do anything anymore, so my heart goes out to you.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. That sucks. Mm-hmm. Interesting that the whole family has long COVID though.

Jordan Harbinger: I was wondering about that, like are they all somehow genetically predisposed or something to having it, or are they all dealing with the recovery in a similar way?

I don't know. They, they [01:07:00] just don't know a lot about this stuff, I think.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But it sounds like her parents have recovered from it because they gave her tips for getting better.

Jordan Harbinger: Right. Okay. That apparently helped. I actually did some quick research on this. The science is far from settled, but there are several studies that suggest there is some genetic or familial predisposition and that could influence the risk of developing long COVID.

But a lot of the studies are preliminary.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I have to imagine that lifestyle and environment play big roles as well. It's not just genes.

Jordan Harbinger: I read that similar baseline health diet, immune system traits, shared exposure, history, viral load, all of that probably affects whether a family's gonna get long COVID.

So it seems like this comes down to genes plus environment plus exposure, plus, you know, random luck. In any event, I am very sorry. It's been so rough for you guys, but I'm very happy to hear you've made so much progress. You're taking care of yourself, you're creating balance. That is great. So what I find interesting about your letter is how much conflict you're in about all this.

When you're fatigued, you know you need to rest. But when you rest, you beat yourself up for not accomplishing as much. And when you [01:08:00] don't accomplish as much, you feel like you're failing your own high standards. But when you think about easing up on those high standards, you spiral, you suspect you are putting too much energy into your social life.

But when you think about taking time for yourself, you're worried that you're gonna lose your friendships, which are the only thing that makes school bearable. Ugh. Yeah,

Gabriel Mizrahi: teenager. Good point. She's really at odds with herself in so many different ways.

Jordan Harbinger: She is. And I think she knows that. Like she said, I've tried to be better about acting how I feel like acting tired when I'm tired, but I don't wanna shut down.

So look, I don't wanna minimize the very real physical symptoms of long COVID. I hear you that you're exhausted. Those friends I mentioned, they talk about constantly being fatigued. They need to take naps every day. They can't work out as hard as they used to. They can't do whatever it was they were doing before, you know, playing golf every day.

I don't know. At the same time, I think we need to separate out whatever physical symptoms you're going through from the thoughts and feelings that they're bringing up. 'cause if the reality is that you're tired and need rest, then you need to be tired and rest. If you're lying down, but in your head you're going, oh, I'm failing, I'm bad.

You're, [01:09:00] you know, you're disappointing everyone. You're lazy. Whatever thoughts come up, you're creating a tension where there just really doesn't necessarily need to be one. And actually, it's possible that this whole long COVID thing is an opportunity to look at these parts of your personality that are, that are creating so much distress.

It's an interesting question, is the problem that you have long COVID and you need to slow down and take care of yourself. Or is the problem that you can't allow yourself to slow down and take care of yourself without worrying that you should be doing something different? I gotta let you answer that for yourself.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, that is an excellent question. The other reason I think you need to separate the physical stuff and the mental stuff is, I mean, look, I, I'm not your therapist. I only know you from this letter, but I wouldn't be surprised if you were prone to some anxiety and depression before you got COVID and the long COVID stuff might just be a new source of anxiety and depression.

Perhaps it's exacerbating some stuff that was already there, but maybe just beneath the surface.

Jordan Harbinger: I think that's extremely likely. And again, that's a function of her thoughts, right? Like she said, I [01:10:00] had anxiety about whether I'd be able to survive the day. The thought was always in the back of my head and it spiked when my fatigue was particularly bad.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So clearly her thoughts do have a lot to do with this, and there's probably some very helpful cognitive, behavioral type stuff she could do to look at some of those thoughts and how they arise and what she does with them and how they lead to further negative thoughts and how all of that is feeding this difficult cycle.

But you know what I'm about to say? I think so. What's the root of those thoughts, right? If it's true that she ran a little depressive or a little anxious before, or at the very least she was predisposed to respond to a very big setback like COVID in a certain way. If I were her, I would want to get to that stuff.

And I can't help but feel that it's somehow tied into this perfectionism thing because perfectionism is, is just really the tip of the iceberg. Underneath that is a lot of other stuff, a real anxiety about being less than perfect, being seen as less than perfect, which almost always reflects a shame about struggling or falling short.

And that usually goes back quite a long way to early [01:11:00] experiences, primary relationships, where you know, you probably were not allowed to struggle and fail or rest or just like need, you know, need to rest, need to play, need to not produce all the time. And to be able to do that with adults who could make some room for you to go through those phases and bear that anxiety with you and help you work through some of these experiences in a way that makes them survivable.

Jordan Harbinger: And the whole concept of your sense of self worth being tied to. Being perfect. That's a big piece of it too,

Gabriel Mizrahi: which is kind of a consequence of these more primitive experiences, and there's a lot more nuance to all of that. I'm sure this perfectionism thing shows up differently in every person, in every family.

So I'm taking some very big guesses, and I'm kind of like summing you up in broad terms, but that's kind of the shape of it. And so in the spirit of Jordan's question a moment ago. Here's another one you might want to explore. Is your problem the fatigue or is your problem the relationship with achieving that?

Dealing with the fatigue is now laying bare

Jordan Harbinger: bingo. I'm sure she'd say it's [01:12:00] both, but clearly it's more the latter. Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I would also love to know more about what school is bringing up for her, because so much of her story revolves around that environment. Specifically.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. This got bad in school last year, but then during summer break the days were easier.

Her anxiety went down. Then school starts back up again and suddenly she's tired again.

Gabriel Mizrahi: She's tired again, but the schoolwork is not that hard, so she doesn't think that's the culprit, and now she has tools to keep the anxiety and depression at bay. Which, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna nitpick a, a tiny bit and possibly read something into that sentence that might or might not be there, but keeping anxiety and depression at bay, is that really working on the anxiety and depression?

Or is that just kind of like pushing some difficult feelings away?

Jordan Harbinger: It does kind of sound like the latter. I understand that her routine, her mindsets, they're helpful. I think we all try to stay one or two steps ahead of depression and anxiety. But you're right, this does sound like willing the difficult thoughts and feelings away, or maybe keeping herself so busy that they don't affect her as much, as opposed to figuring out why they are arising [01:13:00] in the first place, and then learning how to work through those feelings.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I guess it depends on what she means by tools, right? If the tools are, I'm learning how to bear this anxiety and this depression better, and I now know how to talk about them with my therapist, with my parents, you know. I have a journaling practice. I play a sport to keep my mood up that I get. That's great.

If the tools are, I bury myself in four hours of homework every night, and I go to a party with my friends every weekend so I can take my mind off of my worries. That's something else.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I would argue those aren't really tools. Those are avoidance strategies.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. So we'll let her decide what is going on here and if this approach is truly helpful.

It's just an interesting phrase that jumped out that made me wonder, and it's kind of part of the school context.

Jordan Harbinger: No, but you're onto something because her main theory for why she's tired again is that she's putting too much energy into her social life. I mean, she's a teenager and, and now that we're digging into this, I do wonder what those relationships or the way she's going about those relationships are doing for her.

I love that she has so many friends. I'm glad she's not isolated, but maybe what feels so costly about pulling back from her friendships [01:14:00] is that she'd be losing something important to her. A source of stability, maybe a comfort confirmation that she's not, you know, debilitated by the whole thing.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And also a system that can maybe absorb some of her anxiety or alleviate some of her depression.

Exactly. None

Jordan Harbinger: of which is inherently bad, but it sounds like she needs to be more intentional about where she puts her energy while she recovers from this thing. So it's an interesting question why she's spending so much of it on other people

Gabriel Mizrahi: and why exactly. School is so unbearable without these friends, because like, okay, it's high school.

We all know high school. It sucks a lot of the time, and your friends are a huge piece of it. But is school particularly unbearable for her because of the perfectionism thing, because of these feelings, because of this COVID stuff. If she worked on some of those things, would it feel less costly to pull back and prioritize herself more?

Jordan Harbinger: Yep. Another good question. I also just wanna remind her, high school is insane. They make you get up at 6:00 AM or whatever. Every day you stay there for like eight hours or seven hours, whatever. You have sports, you have homework, you have projects, you have the rest of your life. It's actually [01:15:00] crazy. They design it for old administrators who wanna go home at two 30 and then like have their whole day ahead of them.

'cause they, they don't have a problem getting up at five. It's just nuts. It doesn't make any sense. It doesn't run along the teenager sleep schedule, physical schedule at all. And then they pile a bunch of crap on top of you. Some of the fatigue is probably tied to that. I remember being just delirious and then being like, you're gonna let me drive in this condition?

And it's like, yeah, you have to.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's so true. That's already difficult. I'm having flashbacks to high school now. We had to be there at seven 30 in the morning and there were days when I probably should not have been driving.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. And it's like, okay, you've had four hours of sleep, five days in a row and worked 8, 9, 10, 11 hours on homework, sports and or school.

It's like, yep, here are the car keys. Drive your SUV down some icy roads in Michigan to school. It's insane. It's so stupid. And then add on top of that COVID. Oh, and of course, debilitating COVID fatigue. Yeah. Like

Gabriel Mizrahi: of course your body would be begging for three months of rest.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. Look, I know it's hard to separate the physical stuff from the psychological stuff.

They're [01:16:00] so intertwined, but I would keep working on both sides of this equation. On the medical front, keep following the long COVID recovery playbook. They say that you have to prioritize rest and recovery. They say don't overdo it, but also that you have to challenge yourself within your limitations.

Customize your pace, and if you're not getting better, I would definitely talk to your parents about going to a post COVID specialty clinic. Look into long COVID rehab. Ask your doctors about any new interventions. They're understanding this stuff more and more. I actually have a buddy who has long COVID.

He runs a pro bono, a k, a free group for people. He has meetings, I think every month or something like that. Email me. We'll get that information to you, and that of course goes for anybody else who's dealing with this as well. But my hunch is that the mental emotional stuff is where you're gonna make the most progress.

You're not just recovering from long COVID, you're recovering from some patterns and qualities that long COVID has revealed. If you really look at them, not just recreate them in other ways or keep them at bay, this whole difficult period could have some really big upsides. Sending you a big hug, wishing you a long nap, and all the best.

Go back [01:17:00] and check out Rizwan, Vike, Ken Burns, and our Skeptical Sunday on light pollution. If you haven't heard those yet, the best things that have happened in my life in business have come through my network. It is the circle of people I know, like, and trust. I'm teaching you how to build those same things for yourself in our Six Minute Networking course.

It's free, it's not gross, it's not schmoozy. It's on the Thinkific platform at Six Minute Networking dot com. Build those relationships before you need 'em. Dig that well before you get thirsty. Six Minute Networking dot com. Show notes on the website, advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show, all at Jordan harbinger.com/deals.

I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi. This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tadas Sidlauskas, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but not your lawyer.

Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Ditto Neil Rombardo. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, [01:18:00] please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.

Are you addicted to drama? Check out this preview of The Jordan Harbinger Show with psychologist Dr. Scott Lyons.

JHS Trailer: Do you vent constantly? Do you find yourself changing the stories? Do you find that wherever you go, there's always something that's wrong or happening? Do you find yourself believing the other shoe will always drop, that no matter how good things are, something bad is gonna happen?

Do you find yourself crisis hopping? If you're in it, you will have no idea that that's what you're doing. And it takes a lot of time for those addicted to drama to recognize, to even be aware of the pattern is happening. Our primal needs as a kid is to be seen and heard, to feel safe. And so you will go to whatever extremes, intensely shouting is needed to pierce through the chaos of a [01:19:00] family household to be seen and heard.

Even if it's burning down the house, a wave of an emotion. It lasts 30 to 90 seconds. Anything after that is the story we're feeding to maintain it. We're trying to keep that emotion active. We're feeding off the emotion as opposed to processing or metabolizing it. We're not letting it go because there's some belief system.

If we let it go, we'll be victims. If we let it go, we won't be safe. Whatever it is, why we won't let go of the emotion. Even a small trauma can feel like death because we feel helpless, and if we don't have the resilience capacity to know that someone will help us. There are tools out there to help us if we don't inherently know that it feels like we're gonna drown in that moment it feels like.

Jordan Harbinger: Learn to recognize and heal from drama addiction On episode 836 with Dr. Scott Lyons on The Jordan Harbinger [01:20:00] Show.