1266: Cutting off Creep Whose Manipulation Runs Deep | Feedback Friday

1266: Cutting off Creep Whose Manipulation Runs Deep | Feedback Friday

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Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the king of auld lang syne-offs, Gabriel Mizrahi.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, good one. Killing the nicknames recently, I have to say.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I thought you would like that one. You're not the only one who can spin a mean dad. Pun bruh.

Clearly not to King of old long signoffs. Is that how you pronounce? Yeah. Either way. Old Long signoffs Old, long signoffs. Yeah. Anyway, On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people, turn their wisdom into practical advice you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

And our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks from organized crime figures, former jihadi, investigative journalists, astronauts, hostage negotiators. This week we had Joe Loya, author of the memoir, The Man Who Outgrew His Prison Cell: Confessions of a [00:01:00] Bank Robber.

This dude has a really fascinating story. He grew up with a violent abusive father. When he was 16, there was a severe beating going on in the house with his brother, and he ended up stabbing his dad in the neck and his life went sideways. After that, he became a prolific bank robber. After he robbed his 24th bank, he was arrested, served time in prison, but even from prison, he continued his criminal behavior until he was eventually placed in solitary confinement where he was alone for two years, which sounds terrible.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Relatable.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, kinda like in Japan with worse food. And he was finally able to forgive his dad, find clarity and insight, eventually find redemption through his writing. So I had him on to share. A bank robber's journey from stabbing his dad to finding peace, I guess you would say. And as you can imagine, there was a lot to talk about.

So this is a two part show. On Fridays though, we take listener letters, offer advice, play the occasional obnoxious soundbite and kick off the year right by plunging forward into the great dos filled unknown. By the way, at funny little note, one of the most controversial things I got email for in 2025 [00:02:00] was the, uh, Palestine Israel conflict, the Gaza thing that got a lot of email, but it's barely first place to people writing in about what we said about Zinn on a recent feedback Friday.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh yeah. People are very upset that we thought it was tobacco and they're like, it's not tobacco.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I think we, we said it was tobacco 'cause it was like a nicotine pouch. People are like, nicotine is not bad for you. Which is objectively not true. It's also super highly addictive. And a couple of other listeners pointed out, 'cause this was in Spotify, comments, emails, different apps have different comments.

And a couple of listeners who saw those comments had a pretty astute observation, Gabe, which was, imagine how strongly these people are struggling with something where they feel the need to defend the habit and the substance in the comments. You know what I mean? And that's a really good point because the tobacco nicotine thing, oops, that's a misspeak.

It's not disinformation, it's not hurting people. The reaction was like, I'm unsubscribing because [00:03:00] your take on Zinn is totally unhinged. And it's like, hmm, I don't know. There's a reason this stuff is regulated. It's a super addictive drug. It promotes tumor growth. Oh, it's not a carcinogen. Okay, fine. But it promotes tumor growth fine.

Like steroids also do that. They don't cause cancer. They just help it grow. Would you recommend your friends do steroids too? At first, I was kinda like, these people are really sticklers for the minutiae. But I think the listeners who pointed this out in the comments are right. It's when you're struggling so hard with something, you feel the need to defend it like that.

It's pretty intense. Like it's not bad for me. You're really talking to yourself when you post a comment like that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think a few other people also pointed out that this guy must be going through some pretty intense stuff at work if he needs to turn to these substances. And on the spectrum of addiction, was his addiction so severe that it spells the end of their relationship?

It sounded dicey. To be honest, it's not the worst addiction we've ever heard about. It's something they could probably resolve. But a few people did point out that not only is this [00:04:00] guy struggling, but there's something going on between the two of them that is making it hard to resolve, and then a bunch of you chimed in with some really great resources for partners of people who have addictions, which we should have mentioned more on the show.

So thank you for that. Yep, yep.

Jordan Harbinger: Al-Anon and things like that. I thought it was funny that one of the top comments was time to get a new girlfriend who's more supportive. I was like, dang, we all harsh dude's drinking half a bottle of Jack Daniels per day. And it's like, yeah, you need a new girlfriend. That would solve one of the problems.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think that's an interesting dynamic between the two of them, but I cannot say that I endorse that conclusion. No, no. Anyway, Gabe, what's the first thing out of the mail? Mailbag. Just a heads up before we dive into this next letter. This one's a little racy. There's some adult details in here. Nothing too obscene, but just know that going in case you're listening with your kids in the car or whatever.

Dear Jordan and Gabe, I have a friend, let's call him Saul, who I have known for years as we're part of the same tight-knit professional community, have similar values and share complimentary personalities. But sometime back, our [00:05:00] friendship took a turn. When Saul began to give me mixed signals. He gave compliments about my appearance, implied he could be my emergency contact, and became so attached to me at events that people began to question me about what was happening and would complain that he was monopolizing my attention.

He told me I was his only female friend, despite not liking women who have male friends. He also told me that while he was dating his ex Gemma, he had been questioned about whether we had been having an affair. He wouldn't try to make plans to hang out with me solo, but we had been talking about going on a sandboarding trip together.

And when I asked what else we would do, he calmly said that I would flash someone and made multiple statements to me making implications about his penis. Boy that escalated quickly.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, this guy's game tight. No, there's something wrong with this guy. What are you doing, man? Clearly that's weird. You catch feelings for a friend, a peer, whatever.

Okay, it happens. There's a mature way to communicate that. See if the person feels the same way and go [00:06:00] from there. But I don't know. This is just bizarre. I feel mean saying this, but whatever. The guy sounds like a 12-year-old boy with a TBI trying to hit on the girl sitting next to him in algebra. What's wrong with this guy?

Just wait. 'cause it gets worse.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, of course it does. One of the products I sell for my job is a Popsicle that looks very dildo esque. They knew, but okay, here we go. I'm already cringing. Fast forward to an acquaintance's birthday party. Out of nowhere, Saul starts talking about me, masturbating with this product, then tries to gaslight me saying, I told him I did this.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay, so this isn't just inappropriate. This is actually super creepy. The guy needs to be put in his place and iced out for sure.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I found this behavior to be inappropriate, creepy, rude, disrespectful, degrading, and bizarre. It didn't help that earlier in the evening, he had painted me as a creep who was obsessed with him.

Of course he did. This freaking dude. Come on. The next morning, our friend Brian told me that Saul and Gemma went home together, and Saul most likely had been [00:07:00] giving me mixed messages just to make Gemma jealous as they began contacting each other again after an event where Saul and I had a private moment together that Gemma had interrupted by yelling my name.

Okay, if that's true, this whole thing is so dumb. This is so high school. The behavior from the night before had already upset me, but this news further devastated me as Saul knew that despite many years of therapy, I still had trust and insecurity issues around men due to my PTSD from being sexually assaulted by a friend nine years ago.

And the fact that I haven't been on a date in eight years, and the fact that I'm the only female in our young professionals group who doesn't get asked out on dates.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Okay. Well, I'm so sorry to hear this. This is awful. I can hear how hard it all is for you, and my heart goes out to you. I can only imagine how much worse that makes all this Saul bullshit.

The fact that he knows all this, and he still did, and said all of this stuff.

Gabriel Mizrahi: This dude man, he's a POS, right? I hate this guy. [00:08:00]

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, he really is. I hesitate to connect up too many dots. Who knows what's going through this creeps head. Sounds a little nuts, honestly, but this must be factoring into his behavior somehow.

Either emboldening him or giving him some weird satisfaction.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Or he's just so misattuned, can't empathize with another person. So doesn't realize how somebody who's been assaulted and is struggling with dating would hear some of the stuff that he's saying to her. Yeah, I'm kind of done with this guy. I wanted to confront Saul about everything but didn't know how.

He has a very avoidant personality and he once told me about an incident where a woman had hurt and upset him, and he responded by telling her that she looked like an A possum's anus. What an A possum's anus.

Jordan Harbinger: Good. Okay, so what a oddly specific insult.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I cannot tell if this guy is just like severely immature or legitimately off his rocker.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I'm gonna go with both. If I saw that [00:09:00] scene in a movie, I would laugh, but it's such an absurd thing for an adult to say to another adult. I'm picturing MLE from super Bad saying that for some reason that's the image in my head. Yes. It's something straight outta one of those Vince Vaughn wedding crasher type movies.

How do you say something like that with a straight face though? That's my question. The fact that that's how he responded to someone and another adult who hurt his feelings. And

Gabriel Mizrahi: a woman specifically, I think that's

Jordan Harbinger: important. Well, I think that's probably a relevant detail. 'cause he, he's a regressed dickhead.

Yeah, he's a real anti eaters taint. Am I right? Yeah. The dude is a legit gorilla. Gooch. So Gooch. Wow, Gooch. I haven't heard that word in a minute. So it's funny, I never use that word. It sounds so ccra to me, but. I was interviewing Shanna Swan, this is like a scientist doctor, whatever, from a million episodes ago on endocrine disruptors.

And she was giving some sort of measure like, well, people who have these endocrine disrupting chemicals in their [00:10:00] body, their perineum or whatever it's called, scientific, like their perineum has a shorter distance between it is like something like that. And I was like, can you explain what perineum is?

And she's like, taint Gooch. And this is like a 75-year-old, you know, scientist. And she's saying, Gooch on my show. I just lost my mind. She brought it back. For sure. Now we're gonna bring it back. Damn. Anyway, just to state the obvious, this guy hates women. He doesn't like women who have male friends. This is incel shit.

This is a huge red flag.

Gabriel Mizrahi: He's simultaneously attracted to her, but he is also like projecting his attraction and his shame onto her with all of this creepy sex toy stuff,

Jordan Harbinger: and he's sexually harassing her. This guy is a nightmare of the dork variety. That said, calling someone an A possums anus is never not gonna make me laugh.

Sorry.

Gabriel Mizrahi: What a weirdo. Saul had always told me about his brother Micah, and despite never having met him, I naively messaged Micah on LinkedIn. Oh no. I just introduced [00:11:00] myself, said I wished I was interacting with him under different circumstances as I heard so many good things about him and asked if he could provide insight on how to handle conflict with Saul as he had been cruel to me.

I messaged him because Saul had described Micah as very secure and rational, so I thought he would be helpful. He also sounded interesting and unlike anyone I've ever met, and despite how close they are, Micah clearly brings up some of Saul's insecurities. So I knew it would upset Saul that I was talking to Micah.

Jordan Harbinger: All right. I want to hear how this plays out. But that was not the best move. I'm certain, I guess I can understand wanting another person's opinion, but this feels messy. I'm also confused, Gabe. So she suggested like she wants to upset Saul. That was part of the point.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's how it reads to me. I'm not entirely sure that she knew it would upset him.

Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. It sounds like she wanted to upset him, which confuses me. Saul is a person you confront. You either put him in his place or you block him and move on and you know which way I am leaning. This just feels [00:12:00] like you're stirring the pot or you're kicking the hornet's nest. But like to what end? Why?

Why are you doing this?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Unsurprisingly, Micah did not respond to me, but he did tell Saul about my message.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, unsurprisingly, that was completely predictable and let me guess it made everything worse.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Saul called me but I didn't answer as I was traveling for work. It was 1:00 AM back home by the time I was able to talk, so I recorded a voice message for him and sent.

He didn't respond and blocked me on social media when we were at the same events. He pretended I didn't exist.

Jordan Harbinger: Great. Good riddance. You guys needed to sever this relationship. It's a mess, and he did you a favor.

Gabriel Mizrahi: After some time passed, Brian encouraged me to write Saul a letter and he would give it to him.

I wrote him a five page letter explaining what he did, but I only focused on the behavior at the party as I didn't know for sure that he was using me to make Gemma jealous, although it would be way too much of a coincidence as he was not the one who ended the relationship. I also explained why I messaged Micah apologized for doing so [00:13:00] and asked if we could talk about everything that had happened.

He did not respond to my letter and he ignored the text I sent him for his birthday. All right.

Jordan Harbinger: I'm trying to hold off here. 'cause you know, new Year resolution is not to be a giant dick in every feedback Friday, but why are we texting this creep for his birthday? I'm already failing. It's January 2nd and my New Year's resolution is in the absolute toilet.

You know what? I don't No rag regrets. You. I'm fine with it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You beat your previous record of That's, that's true. We have 1% better. That's what they say, right? You, you lasted until the Super Bowl, super Bowl 2025 is when you lasted last time, but yeah, exactly. One day into the new year is already popping off.

All right. All right. Why are we touching this creep for his birthday?

Jordan Harbinger: It's a little inconsistent. Yes. Look, I'm on your team here. What's consistent here is you are sending him consistently mixed messages. But why? Why are you doing this? And I have a theory, but why? We'll

Gabriel Mizrahi: get

Jordan Harbinger: into that. Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I've channeled my anger and my sadness into CrossFit and my professional endeavors with success.

But the emotional stress of this [00:14:00] situation with Saul has negatively impact my physical and mental health. Because our personal and professional lives are so intertwined, we will keep seeing each other and will eventually have to speak. How do I approach this conflict without creating a major gossip worthy scene?

How do I find closure? So the pain goes away, but also so I can trust again and not assume that a guy is only acting interested in me because he's using me, signed, drawing up a treaty that's clean and hopefully speedy with this seedy dude who's giving me the heebie-jeebies when I fear that every guy who comes around is sneaky.

Jordan Harbinger: All right, so much going on here. Like I said, very sorry that Saul treated you this way, pulled all these shenanigans. You didn't deserve any of this. I dunno what his deal is, but it's safe to say that he is definitely creepy. He definitely has issues with women. This is, in my opinion, not a safe friend or peer to have.

And I'm very sorry that he put you in so many uncomfortable and [00:15:00] hurtful situations, especially given your history. I have very little sympathy for grown ass adults in the professional world who act this way, but clearly there's something wrong with him. He needs help. I hope he finds that help. At the same time, the best thing you could have done for him and for yourself would've been to call out his behavior sooner.

Kind of like what you did in the letter. And either give him a chance, like one chance I'd say to apologize and act right, or just cut off all contact with him. Block him like he did to you. Ignore him at events like he did to you. Just pretend he doesn't exist. Who cares? This is what he's doing to you right now because he is ashamed, most likely as he should be.

And if he didn't respect that boundary, or you found out he was being creepy and gross with other people in your community. Notify the event organizers, the moderators, other members, however this group is run, and just ask them to step in and either check this dude or kick him out. That's it. You wanna approach this conflict without creating a major gossip worthy scene.

That is how you do it. What you don't do, in my opinion, is message a [00:16:00] family member of his. You don't have a previous relationship with in some sort of attempt to recruit allies or upset him or, and maybe make an interesting new friend in the process. You don't write a five page letter calling him out, which, you know, I, I definitely applaud, but which probably would've been even more impactful had it come sooner only to turn around and send him a birthday text.

I just worry that undermines your position, maybe inadvertently enabled him to continue acting like a bit of a maniac, or at least avoid responsibility. The most effective way to deal with somebody like this, the least dramatic way, is to just draw a hard boundary and actually stand by it and privately ask for help from other people that you already know.

If you need it now, look. I'm being a little tough on you here. Maybe as I think you could tell, I am a hundred percent on your side on this. I hate this guy. I hate the position he's put you in. And I guess I want you to get curious about why you found it hard to take consistent stance with this guy.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I imagine it can be a little hard to know exactly how to handle a person like this.

Jordan Harbinger: I get that, but I also think that might be [00:17:00] why this Saul situation had to happen to shine a light on these aspects of her personality that might make her more vulnerable to a dangerous person like this. That might make it hard sometimes for her to protect herself as well as she can and to help her learn how to handle a person like this in the future, which I hope she never comes across in other o possums anus like this.

But I am sure it won't be the last difficult person that she has to deal with in her life.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No, you're right. And I'm also just remembering that she began her letter by saying that Saul is avoidant. And I don't know if she's avoidant. Maybe there is a little bit of avoidance, but she's also doing a dance that's compatible.

In fact, didn't she say they have complimentary personalities? So maybe. To your point, this is how those puzzle pieces fit her. Second question, how do I find closure so the pain goes away, but also so I can trust again and not assume that a guy is only acting interested in me because he is using me.

That's more complicated. So there's a lot going on in that question. Let's try to parse it a little bit. First of all, wanting to find closure [00:18:00] so that the pain goes away. I think that is an interesting way to put it. Closure. Sure. Great. I'm all for it. And if closure is what you want, then finessing Saul in the way that Jordan pitched a moment ago would probably be the best way to do that.

But I wonder if what you're saying is that the distress of being harassed and manipulated by this weirdo, and then the distress of having to stand up to him and put him in his place, that is hard for you to live with, which I get, it's hard for most people, most normal people anyway. But I do wonder if the difficulty of bearing that distress, if that might have been the reason that you sent Saul those mixed signals with the letter and then the birthday text.

I wonder if what you were really saying there was, Hey, you really hurt and grossed me out in all these ways, and then feeling the vulnerability and the pain of telling another person how they wronged you. You wanted to maybe soften or transmute those feelings by being kind. So the subtext of the birthday text might have been something like, please tell me that [00:19:00] we're okay.

Please tell me that you're not the monster. You've been acting like. Let's pretend that we're cool so I don't have to feel this painful feeling of knowing that we're not. Yeah, that makes sense. Her inconsistency around SA might be informed by a number of things, including her difficult history with men, but one of those things might just be this fundamental ability to hang in the awkwardness of being in conflict with another person.

Who I wanna remind her was absolutely in the wrong, was absolutely in the wrong, which makes her struggle to stand by her position even more interesting if she can't do it in a situation where he was the clear aggressor, you know, imagine how much harder it would be in most of the other conflicts of life where the math is often a lot messier.

Jordan Harbinger: So this theory kind of casts the whole mica move in a new light. For me, I was framing that as destroying the pop, but maybe it was more like distributing the pain.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, good point. Distributing the pain. I don't want to be in this alone. Can we both hate Saul? Or can you tell me that you secretly hate Saul?

So I don't feel as alone in this. [00:20:00] Also recruiting some support because it was probably pretty nerve wracking to feel like she had to hold this position on her own. I can understand that. I still wanna highlight that. I do not think that was a good move though. No it wasn't. But given what we're talking about, it's a move that I think I can understand to some degree.

And if these feelings ever arise again next time she can go, okay, I'm feeling really activated by being in conflict with someone, and I've seen this before. So let me sit with these feelings for a little while. Let me take them to the right people before I start looking for allies, maybe in the wrong places, to dilute the distress.

It's not that she can't look for allies in a situation like this. Like you said, telling other people in the group about this guy might have been the exact right move. And also when you've been harassed by someone, it's absolutely okay to look for solidarity, to look for help. Where it gets dicey is are you looking for allies or are you looking for someone to help you discharge some tough feelings

Jordan Harbinger: and or to accomplish some other end, like getting back at the person or riling them up.

Which kind of does [00:21:00]

Gabriel Mizrahi: sound like it was in the mix. Exactly. And as for trusting again, and not assuming that a guy's only acting interested in you because he is using you. Again, very big question and kind of a hard one to answer in just a few minutes. I mean, we talk about this all the time. This is gonna be a process.

I think what makes your story complex is that Saul is a painful person to be around for sure, but he was extra painful because what he did connected up with some very real trauma from your past, which is really unfortunate. And some of his behavior, or maybe to be more precise, the meaning you made out of his behavior, like the idea that he was using you to make his ex jealous, which by the way, I'm not totally convinced is true.

I think this guy might have actually really been into you. I think so,

Jordan Harbinger: yeah. It's

Gabriel Mizrahi: so insecure and messed up that he didn't know how to communicate that. But regardless, it sounds like that interpretation that he was just using you feels true. And that interpretation chimed with some feelings and some beliefs you have about yourself.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, and by the way, again, I agree. I think Saul actually was interested in her, but [00:22:00] he had a super dysfunctional and unhealthy way of acting on it. Not that she would want this creepy dude's interest. I just find it interesting that her read on all this was that she was just a pawn in some immature game with his ex and nothing more

Gabriel Mizrahi: as opposed to a legitimate object of his interest inappropriately pursued.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, exactly. I'm just thinking about that thing. She said how she has some insecurity issues around men, partly because she hasn't dated much and she doesn't get asked out in this group they have going,

Gabriel Mizrahi: yeah, this was his way of asking her out, I think. I think so. Although it was mixed up with a lot of other weird stuff.

Anyway, this is a lot of life, right? The thing that hurts us isn't really the thing that hurts us. It's the earlier wound that thing touches or echoes, plus the stories we hold about ourselves. Yeah. Yes. The stories, the self concepts and the experiences that we have, and also the tools we have to navigate all of this stuff.

Exactly. So. The best advice I could offer you here is I would get curious about what those stories and concepts and wounds are. You're clearly already onto a lot of them, but I'm assuming you've already done this to some degree in therapy. I'm not sure if [00:23:00] you're still there, but that's the place to do it.

You already know about one big wound, and I want to echo what Jordan said a moment ago. I'm so sorry to hear about this assault by this friend. That is terrible, and I'm sure it left you with a lot of difficult thoughts, difficult feelings. One of them might be a fear that men are only interested in you because they're using you, which honestly breaks my heart, but I understand it.

And maybe that was the result of the assault, or maybe it goes back even earlier than that. That would be something useful to trace back as well. But I would also make room for the idea that these stories, these beliefs, these feelings, they are not fixed. They can evolve and the best way ultimately is to create new experiences with people that show you that life can be different from what happened before, that you can be different with different people with different approaches.

Standing up to a creep and a bully in your professional group is one great way to do that, to show yourself that you can withstand the distress, you can survive that among other things. And also pursuing men who are healthy and high [00:24:00] functioning, who aren't super weird and allowing them to take an interest in you without putting too much stock in the fear that they're only doing that because they must be up to something else.

That's another way. We obviously do not have full control over the plot of our lives, right? Like you can't, will a great guy who doesn't push any of your buttons to come into your life tomorrow, right? You can't go back in time and handle Saul differently, so you could have that experience. What you do have more control over is how you generate new experiences and how you show up in those experiences and how you meet yourself.

And that includes taking everything you learned from this solid debacle, all the information that it's kicked up about you, which is considerable and valuable, and all these lessons it's giving you and use that. To hopefully seek out new relationships with more awareness, more flexibility, more creativity, more courage.

So I know that's a little abstract, but I really do believe that if you can do that, then this bigger goal, learning to trust again, that is going to take care of [00:25:00] itself.

Jordan Harbinger: Totally agree. Gabe, 'cause like how does a person learn to trust again, how does anyone do anything big and conceptual like that? I understand the question, but that's a huge idea.

If you break it down, it really just means like catching yourself, assuming the worst about someone or speaking up along the way when something bothers you. Or sharing some of this stuff with people who are safe, whatever that looks like. Doing that in a way that gives you new data, which, like you said, that's a process.

It's a process for everyone. Okay. We went pretty deep on this one. Lot's going on beneath the surface. Again, I'm sorry that Saul did a lot of this to you, but given everything we're talking about in a way, I'm happy you had to deal with him finally, because I think this dude is laid bare, some really important stuff for you.

Painful, absolutely, but very important. And in that way. This veritable opossums anus, this preeminent platypus is perineum. He might actually be playing a powerful role in your growth, which like it or not always turns out to be the case. Sending you a big hug and wishing you all the best. [00:26:00] And now we all know the economy's tighter than an O possums anus these days, so don't miss out on the deals and discounts on the product and services that support this show.

We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Bombas. One of the goals this year and all year round is to stay comfy, and Bombas is leading that charge in my house. We love Bombas so much. It's all we wear. We even gift it to our family and our friends and our nanny. We're big fans of the Grip socks, so we don't slip around on our floors.

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Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by Fitbod. Let's talk New Year's Fitness resolutions for a second, because every January we all do the same thing. We get motivated, we swear. This is the year we go hard for like nine days. Then life happens. Suddenly we're back to our old ways.

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Jordan Harbinger: Thank you so much for listening and supporting the show. All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support this podcast are searchable and clickable on the website at Jordan harbinger.com/deals.

Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now back to feedback Friday.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay, next up. Dear Jordan and Gabe, I have a friend. Let's call her Mary, who's in her fifties and married to a man who's barely 30. Her kids are roughly his age. So you can imagine the layers before we even get to the actual problem.

Wow, interesting. I guess younger

Jordan Harbinger: spouse weirdness with the kids. People usually say that when [00:29:00] the woman is younger, not the man. I was actually just thinking the exact same thing. It's somehow less weird for society when it's the man for reasons that I can't quite put my finger on, but maybe slash probably that's unfair.

So is she gonna explain the layers

Gabriel Mizrahi: or So she goes on, she used to work for my family and was practically a grandmother figure to my child. She's always been kind, competent, and dependable. Then everything fell apart.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. So no detail on the layers. Got

Gabriel Mizrahi: it. That's not what she's writing it about. That was a prologue too bad.

'cause now I'm gonna speculate, but fine. I'm assuming it's some combination of divorce, messiness, and general age weirdness. All right, let's hear it. Her husband had an affair and the other woman in this situation has been doing her best Impression of a villain from a bad lifetime. Movie harassment. Nasty notes.

The works. When Mary discovered the affair, she completely unraveled. She became fixated on the situation to the point of obsession. She couldn't eat or sleep, lost a dramatic amount of weight and [00:30:00] entered a kind of shutdown state. At her lowest point, she told one person that she had threatened her husband with a knife.

Jordan Harbinger: Meaning, just to be clear, Mary threatened her husband. Mary threatened her husband. That's right. With a knife. Okay. I just wanna make sure, 'cause she said the other woman is a lifetime villain, and this sounds a little knifey.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Lifetime villain sounds a little knifey.

Gabriel Mizrahi: She told me that she actually stabbed herself in the stomach in a suicide attempt.

She used the word suicide explicitly. Oh my God. She refuses to involve the police. Refuses medical help. Refuses therapy. She just spirals. Then things escalated again when her young dog suddenly got sick recently. The vet confirmed it was poisoning and they had to put the dog down. The next day, the other woman left Mary a voicemail that strongly implied.

She was responsible, not directly admitting it, but enough to make your hair stand on end.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. That is some bunny boiler stuff. So we got a Glen close on our hands here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's exactly the image that just popped into my mind. This is [00:31:00] terrifying.

Jordan Harbinger: Damn. What does this woman have against her? She stole her husband.

Yeah. You would think it'd be the other way around, right? Like you stole my husband. I'm gonna kill your dog. Okay, so if she did this, this woman is insane and dangerous

Gabriel Mizrahi: to add to the instability. Mary's husband also quit his job. Now neither of them are working, and Mary's mental health is worse than ever.

All she does is sleep, cry, and care for her elderly parents. She's barely functioning

Jordan Harbinger: this poor woman. So just to clarify, Gabe, Mary and her husband, they're neither are working and they still live together.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's what it sounds like.

Jordan Harbinger: All right. It's a little confusing. So they're still tied to each other.

This is a mess.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, they're still involved. Clearly cohabitating at least. Meanwhile, I work for a collective impact agency. We coordinate services and community supports, but we don't have a case manager of our own, and I think that is exactly the kind of professional Mary needs. Right now. My contribution to the situation is basically limited to moral support documentation and some very bleak humor to cope.

I [00:32:00] know I'm not Mary's therapist, crisis worker or law enforcement authority, but she keeps reaching out to me and then rejecting any suggestion that might actually keep her safe.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, that's tough. I'm trying to protect my own mental health. I recently lost my dad and have kids to raise, but it feels awful.

To watch a friend disintegrate and know the situation around her is objectively dangerous. Yeah, that is brutal to watch. How do I navigate supporting someone who's in a genuine mental health crisis refusing help potentially in danger from someone else? And unwilling to take even basic steps to protect herself.

Is there any middle ground between stepping in hard and stepping back completely, or is the only realistically safe path to draw a line and get outside agencies involved, whether Mary likes it or not? Signed looking for a way in with my decompensating kin and a healthy way to check in without becoming this woman's live-in when she [00:33:00] will not let me in, but also won't begin the work of getting out of this tailspin

Jordan Harbinger: what a cluster.

A.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Both Mary's situation and that questionable sign off.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I'm glad you volunteered at, at this time. Both might require an intervention. So first of all, I'm very sorry you had to say goodbye to your dad recently. That is really tough and I hope you're holding up okay. To be grieving a parent and to be worrying about a family friend like this, it's a lot for one person to handle and it's just gotta be pretty overwhelming.

I'm sorry for Mary too. Of course. It sounds like the affair threw her for a loop. She's unemployed, her husband's unemployed. Soon to be ex-husband, I guess is unemployed. She's having a mentee bee over there. But to lose your financial stability and then your pet possibly because the woman your husband got involved with, murdered it, dude, devastating man.

It's this poor woman. She doesn't deserve any of this, but she's also making it hard, impossible really, to truly help her. And I know, you know how I feel about that. There's

Gabriel Mizrahi: only so much you can do.

Jordan Harbinger: There's only so much you can do. She's literally saying, I [00:34:00] won't involve the police. I will not get medical help.

I will not go to therapy.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay? It's just so hard because then she's also keeps reaching out and talking about, and then re she's like, okay, here's an idea. And she's like, no, I don't wanna do that. Frankly, that's not fair. It's not fair. No, she's, it's maddening. She's putting her in a very difficult position.

Jordan Harbinger: So look, if I were in your shoes, here's what I would do. The next time she calls you to vent about all this, I would say, Hey, listen, Mary, I love you. We go back a long way. You are practically my child's grandmother. You're kind, you're competent, you're dependable. And I'm so sorry you're going through all this.

Look, I'm on Team Mary all the way, and I've been asking myself, how can I actually help my friend here? What does she really need? What can I do? And the truth is, I don't know. I don't know what I can do. Because you've shared some really painful things with me. You tell me about all the ways you're hurting and how you've hurt yourself, and I'm more than happy to listen and support you.

But when I try to offer ideas that could help, I notice you turn them down and that puts me in a confusing place. Like, how can I really be there for Mary? So I want to ask you, and I want you to really think about this. What would you like from me? What would be most helpful? Do you wanna [00:35:00] try things in a new way that will help you get through this chapter?

Or do you just want to talk? Because I'll be honest, if you're ready to open yourself up to help and pursue that help, I'm here to help you do that. I work in collective impact. This is what I do. I'd be thrilled to get you the support you need, but if you're not ready for that, then I'm gonna have to pull back and let you figure this out in your own way, which is totally fair.

Honestly, it would break my heart to watch you continue to struggle, but this is your life. You have to navigate it the way you want, and I can accept that. You say all of that lovingly, you can't go wrong and it's gonna feel scary. I think it might feel cruel almost, but it's actually the opposite because what you're saying is, I care about you so much, I'm gonna point out how you are getting in your own way.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, good point. I care about you so much. I'm going to let you tell me if you really want my help and then I'll be there.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. So this is important for two reasons. One, I think it's the only way to snap Mary outta this fog, or at least try. I don't know exactly why she's rejecting your solutions. I think I can imagine she's probably scared to open herself up to help, [00:36:00] scared to confront a timeline where her marriage is over and she needs to go her own way.

She's probably embarrassed that she needs help. She doesn't wanna face all the feelings that have driven her to spiral out and attempt suicide, which I can understand to some degree. She's probably also getting something out of just complaining about all this. She's the victim here. It's true. And there might be something comforting about just complaining about it without doing anything about it.

Whereas your ideas are forcing her to move into a new place, which is, okay, so what are you gonna do about it? What piece of this do you own? So by asking her point blank how she wants to be supported, you might shock her in a good way into stepping into that

Gabriel Mizrahi: reality. And maybe you can make some room for that as well.

What do you think is holding you back from trying any of these ideas? Like when I say to you, Hey, I think you should talk to somebody. What happens to that when we hang up the phone? Where does that go? Yeah. If she can go there, that could be helpful. If she can't go there, then that's also good information.

Jordan Harbinger: The other reason I think this conversation is important is [00:37:00] it's going to help you clarify your responsibility here. 'cause you're saying, I know I'm not her therapist. I know I'm not her crisis worker. I know I'm not a cop, but I can't stand watching my friend fall apart. Which again, totally understand. It is heartbreaking, but until Mary says, okay, I'm falling apart, but I'm willing to talk to somebody, I'm willing to see a doctor, I'm willing to file a police report.

I'm gonna go stay with my sister and pick myself back up. Whatever it is, I'm afraid there's kind of nothing you can do to meaningfully help saying this out loud to her. That's also a way of reminding yourself, I'm not Mary Mary's not me. I can only support her up to a point. And I can't keep trying to save someone who doesn't actually wanna be helped.

We come back to this theme over and over again, so I won't belabor the point, but remembering this is really important,

Gabriel Mizrahi: and I think that is the middle ground between stepping in hard and stepping back completely.

Jordan Harbinger: I think so because she's not inserting herself into Mary's life and forcing her to do things she's not willing or ready to do, but she's also not going, okay, you're on your own, Mary.

Like you're out of your mind. I give up [00:38:00]

Gabriel Mizrahi: bye. Like, you know?

Jordan Harbinger: Right. She's being a good friend by standing nearby and going, what do you need? Where do you want me in your life? I'm here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I will say though, the one area where I would step in forcefully and intervene is if she's in immediate danger. Yeah. So if she calls you and like she has a knife in her hand, you

Jordan Harbinger: call 9 1 1 that there's no question about that.

Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But, or even if she's making vague threats to hurt herself or hurt somebody else, you call the police and or you call her husband or you call some of her family members. You make sure that they know that Mary's not doing well and they need to keep an eye on her. I think the insight that our friend here is looking for is, how do I love someone without compromising myself?

How do I protect somebody without taking away her agency? It's tricky. That's always the tricky balancing act. Yeah. So kind of like question one, again, it's more of an ongoing question than a firm stance, which means accepting that Mary might really struggle for a while or possibly worse. And part of the reason that your script, Jordan, is a good idea is that if Mary does continue to spin out and something bad happens, then our friend here doesn't have to feel like she [00:39:00] didn't really give it a shot when she could have,

Jordan Harbinger: it's easier to bear the guild the sadness or any regret or whatever might come up if she knew she showed up for Mary in the right way now.

So a good theme to start the year on, I think, because this is something I wrestle with pretty consistently and it shows up in everybody's life in one form or another. I'm so sorry that Mary's going through it. I'm sorry you're hurting and dealing with all this on top of it. But you know your grief about your dad, your responsibilities in your own life.

They deserve your energy first and foremost, because you are ultimately responsible for you. And I hope that helps you keep an eye on the priorities here, sending you Mary and your whole family a big hug and wishing you all the best you can. Reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Keep your emails concise, use descriptive subject lines.

That makes our job a lot easier. If you're finding dead squirrels in your mailbox, your stepdad's got your nude, or you're struggling with overeating and hoping to make progress as quickly as possible in therapy, whatever's got you staying up at night lately. Hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous.

By the way, our newsletter wee bit wiser. [00:40:00] It is a gem from us to you every Wednesday. It's a two minute read or less. That's our promise. So if you wanna keep up with the wisdom from our thousand plus episodes and apply it to your life, come on and check it out. It's a great companion to the show. Jordan harbinger.com/news is where you can find it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay, what's next? Hey guys. My boyfriend has been at his place of employment for a decade. He's the best employee. Those are the boss's words and very valued. Then recently, he asked to be paid a salary instead of an hourly rate so he could have a steady paycheck. His boss agreed to this two months ago, but has yet to decide on a number.

Jordan Harbinger: Wait, wait, wait. He's so valued. He's the best employee. Hey, can I get a steady paycheck? No, you're not valued like that. We value you with mere words around here. Sorry. Did you want money with that? That's gonna be tough.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Let's get into all that in a moment. Meanwhile, my boyfriend discovered that per New York State law, he was supposed to be getting paid sick leave since 2020.

He was never made aware of his eligibility for it. Has [00:41:00] gone into work sick many times and didn't take any time off when our son was born. He pointed this out to the boss, but the boss doesn't think it's true and refuses to make it right, but also like, oh, that can't be true. If only there were some way to quickly get answers to questions like this.

The Department of Labor speaking of answers to questions like this, recommended filing for wage theft and gave him the paperwork and information for a free lawyer. The problem is he's trying to solidify the salary that they discussed. He wants to continue working there, but it's a small business, and even though there are laws against retaliation, he's afraid of what would happen if he dropped a dime on the company to the Department of Labor reporting.

This would also mean that his fellow employees get what they are owed. Have to imagine that's part of the boss's concern. Should my boyfriend keep his mouth shut and accept his salary, or should he fight for what is right and risk an uncomfortable relationship with the boss? When standing up for himself [00:42:00] might be a gaff, but this boss is also legitimately screwing over the staff.

Jordan Harbinger: Good question. Tricky situation. We wanted to run all this by an expert, preferably also somebody with a real job. So we reached out to Joanna Tate, friend of the show and HR professional for over 20 years, and the first thing Joanna explained to us was. Whether a job is paid on an hourly basis or as a set salary, that isn't just something a boss arbitrarily decides.

This is actually news to me. The Federal Fair Labor Standards Act, the FLSA, it uses a set of standards basically to determine whether a job should be paid on an hourly basis, AKA non-exempt, or on a salary basis, which is called exempt jobs that are paid on an hourly basis. They're generally jobs that are more hands-on or they're task-based.

They tend to follow a set of processes, defined tasks. They don't have a high level of independent decision making, so think customer service reps, warehouse workers, admin assistants, retail workers, repair techs, food service folks, medical assistant, like you get the idea. [00:43:00] Okay? Also, Joanna said that overtime pay is required for these positions.

Usually any work time over 40 hours per week or in a couple states like California. Any work time over eight to 10 hours in a day. Salaried jobs. On the other hand, those are jobs that involve managerial responsibilities, independent judgment, specialized professional knowledge that require education and training.

So like accountants, analysts, project managers, IT professionals, executives, engineers, jobs like that. So Joanna said that your boyfriend can hold the job description up against the FLSA exemptions tests and ask, does this role make independent decisions? Does it supervise? Is it professional level work?

Does it meet salary rules? If not, then it must be hourly. I know this is kind of weird, this news to me too. I never really thought about this, but I've always wondered about it, like, why classify somebody as salaried when you can just pay them hourly? I never totally got it. Joanna also told us that employers generally take on less risk by [00:44:00] classifying a job as hourly, because the FLSA has pretty strict criteria.

So if a role is misclassified as salary, but should have been hourly. The employer would owe back pay for all the missed overtime payments, plus some fees, some penalties. Whereas paying employees on an hourly basis with overtime, that almost never creates an HR compliance risk. But then if your boyfriend's job meets the standards to be paid on a salaried basis, then it would be easier for his employer to pay the same rate every pay period.

So if the job qualifies as exempt, meaning he should be paid a salary, then Joanna couldn't say why the boss would be holding back on making that move. I don't know. She obviously can't know for sure. But this scenario you've described, plus this boss', total indifference to New York State law in Joanna's view, that makes him seem avoidant.

So here's Joanna's advice. If your boyfriend gets an agreement from his boss to move to a salary, he needs to get that in writing.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I would also add that when he had that conversation with his boss about moving to a salary, we're not entirely clear on how that conversation went down, but he should have probably come to an agreement, or [00:45:00] at least begun the discussion about what he actually wanted to be making.

He should have gone into that meeting with a number and gotten the boss to agree to it. If not in the meeting, then shortly afterward, not eight weeks later, we still don't have an answer. So either use the hourly rate he was making to translate to a salary or use it as an opportunity to get a little bump or something like that.

Jordan Harbinger: I hate to say this, and I'm speculating a bit, I know, but this is often how bosses manage to exploit people when the employee's like, yeah, I want a salary. So you get back to me on what number that is and when I can expect it, and the boss is like, cool. I'm gonna do absolutely nothing with this particular request until I am forced to.

After that, Joanna said that he needs to ensure that the change is made to his next paycheck or on the effective date, but then your boyfriend can work 30 hours or a hundred hours each week and still get the same pay, which he obviously has to be okay with.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Now in terms of sick pay, Joanna looked into New York state law a little bit and what she found was that almost all private sector workers are eligible for sick leave beginning in 2020, [00:46:00] regardless of whether they are hourly or salary.

So the only businesses not required to basic leave apparently are businesses that employ four or fewer people and have a net income of a million dollars or less within the previous tax year. So we are all getting the impression that your boyfriend's company has more than four people since you mentioned his fellow employees.

So we're gonna assume that the company qualifies under this law. And by the way, we're gonna link to the relevant New York laws around paid sick leave in the show notes for you, so you guys could read that for yourselves. The challenge is your boyfriend likes his job and apparently the boss is very happy with him, or at least says he is happy with him.

But he has some good indications that his boss will also resist doing the right thing here, and if your boyfriend complains or pushes for this the wrong way, yeah, it could cause a rift and everything else that comes with that in the workplace, right awkwardness. Hostility, possible retaliation, whether it's fewer development opportunities or like a writeup or suddenly his schedule changes.

He's working nights, even though retaliation is also clearly illegal and it [00:47:00] might compromise this salary discussion. Again, that's another reason he should have locked in that number ASAP and gotten it in writing. Yeah, good point. And Joanna said that the fact that his boss is doing this, that is concerning whether he's just uninformed or he is purposely being non-compliant because like, what else is he overlooking accidentally or on purpose, right?

That creates noncompliance. How might he try to cover his own ass if it turns out that he's broken the law? How is his treatment or his decision making gonna change if he feels threatened or embarrassed or just confused about the law? These are risks. Right. So

Jordan Harbinger: Joanna's advice to your boyfriend is this document, the conversation he had with his boss, the date, what was discussed, all that.

Keep copies of his pay stubs and any evidence that he went to work, sick emails, text messages, whatever it is. She would also encourage him to have a conversation with that free lawyer that the Department of Labor referred him to and find out what his options are, how things might go down, how he would be protected or not, if he reported the issue.

And if your boyfriend ultimately decides to file a claim, Joanna said that [00:48:00] he should probably be prepared to leave this job afterward, for obvious reasons, but she also said that speaking up and making this right, it really is the right thing to do for him, for his coworkers, even for the business when he does it.

That's up to him. But honestly, my take. Your boyfriend needs to do the math on what's more valuable to him, the sick pay, the stolen wages, or this job that he loves and the new salary that he might enjoy. There's a way to put a dollar value on that. If the boss owes him like 30 K, I would confront the boss and get the money and find a new job, but I don't know if it's like 5K and he loves his job.

It's a different story.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think he can also get the other employees together to approach this boss as a group and say, Hey, listen, we looked to the law. We're not sure how closely you've read it, but here's what it says about we're supposed to be paid like this. Sick leave works like that. You need to make this right, non confrontationally, ideally at first, and give him a chance to do the right thing, which honestly he should already be doing.

And I would not be surprised if he already knew about this. Just for the sake of the relationship, maybe give him one [00:49:00] shot and that'll also take some of the heat off of your boyfriend.

Jordan Harbinger: True. But the boss is probably still gonna figure out that he got everyone together and that's, you know, not gonna be good for you.

If your boyfriend can secure this new salary, get it implemented, and then get the boss to adjust the sick leave stuff right after. I think that's the ideal outcome. But whether that's possible with this guy, I just don't know. But if the boss is like, okay, I'll think about it and then does nothing, there's your answer.

We're rooting for your boyfriend and good luck. You know, it's a great use of all your reclaimed stolen wages. Gabriel, the fine products and services that support this show, we'll be right back.

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Jordan Harbinger: If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and find our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support the amazing sponsors who make the show possible.

They're all searchable and clickable on the website at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. You can also email our teamJordan@jordanharbinger.com. Someone here will dig up a code for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show. Alright, back to Feedback Friday and now for the recommendation of the week.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm addicted to

Jordan Harbinger: lip filler. Nice, Gabriel. Thank you. My recommendation of the week is Bartender for Mac. It's an award-winning app for Mac Os [00:52:00] that for more than 10 years has superpowered your menu bar. But I love this thing because if you have a Mac. That top thing by the clock, that's the menu bar. It has all these little icons and you're like, what is this?

And it's like this thing you use once a year for your power supply that you don't need up there, and it's in the way and it's cluttered. You can hide that with bartender and you can cover other things up there. You can rearrange things that are up there. You can unclutter it and then you just click the little sunglasses or the bow tie, whatever your bartender icon is, and then they all appear.

And then there's stuff that you never wanna see because you never need it for some reason. There's a menu bar icon for all kinds of crap I will literally never use in my entire life, and I permanently hide those. And so my menu bar's nice and clean. It doesn't have a zillion things now it's useful, right?

Because if I want to click on my password manager, it's like the only thing up there. If I wanna switch wifi networks, it's the only thing up there. I just find it so useful. And I think it's like 20 bucks a year or something, and they update it regularly. It's just a worthwhile upgrade. If you're a Mac user, it's called Bartender, and we'll link to it in [00:53:00] the show notes.

They're not a sponsor or anything. Again, recommendations of the week are always just things we like. Speaking of things, we like to talk to you on Reddit. I'm not allowed to anymore. I called someone a Muppet on Reddit and I got a permanent ban for harassment, so they are thin skinned up in there. However, we do have a subreddit for the show that is now moderated by Gabriel and Bob.

I read it all the time. If I really have something to say, somebody will say it for me that somebody who's definitely not me, because making another account would be against their terms of service, but somebody would reply there. I'm no longer a moderator. There. Again, I read everything and there's a fun discussions in there.

I would say I misread it, but I can still read everything, so I guess I really don't, but you can join most of us. You are the definition of a lurker now. Yes, I'm a lurker. I'm the chief lurker, and you can find most of us on that subreddits. The Jordan Harbinger subreddit. Ironically missing Jordan Harbinger.

All

Gabriel Mizrahi: right, next up. Dear Ernie and Bert,

Jordan Harbinger: I hate that's becoming a thing, but okay.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Whose fault is that? You could have booked a room with two beds in St. [00:54:00] Louis bra who wouldn't be in this situation.

Jordan Harbinger: I mean, it was the publicist's fault and the hotel who doesn't have any roll aways and yours for deciding to join the trip at the last minute, and you took a photo and you posted it, which you consented to and laughed about multiple

Gabriel Mizrahi: times.

Fair, immaterial though kind of material. Actually, just we, why don't you just read the letter, Burt. Okay. During the financial crisis of 2008, my father, who was starting an asset management company for wealthy individuals lost millions of dollars of his client's money, as well as his source of income as a result of market manipulations, not through any direct fault of his own.

Jordan Harbinger: Brutal.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I am sorry to hear that. Market manipulations. Someone else did something weird in the market. He made some bets, but maybe like people shorted certain stocks that he put his client's money into.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's possible. But I don't know, because I'm very curious what the details are on that. I suspect that's not what the letter's about, but are they talking [00:55:00] about the mortgage backed security financial crisis?

Like, oh, I wouldn't have lost all the money if it weren't for this massive economic downturn, which I should have calculated the risk of when managing people's money.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm not a finance expert by any means, but there were a lot of interesting players in the market at that time. And like short sellers can put out reports that tank certain stocks or whatever and they can, so to speak, manipulate the market in a way that is not always entirely fair or legit.

Jordan Harbinger: But

Gabriel Mizrahi: then

Jordan Harbinger: usually when you're managing money, you have like risk diversified. You're not like, oh, I had everything, the AI sector. And then when this report came out that AI was a bunch of bs, it tanked all my investments.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay. Well you were not doing your job correctly. Actually. It is a big part of the story, so you might want to hang on to that observation.

Also, 2008 was a crazy time. It was crazy. He goes on in the following months, he divorced my mom married another woman and moved with her and her two kids from Europe to South America. Neither he nor his new wife has had a stable source of income [00:56:00] since, as they've been living primarily off of the rental income from an apartment my father bought before supposedly going bankrupt.

Ever since then, my father has been determined to make it work in the financial markets, always looking for the next idea that would help him find an edge and earn back what he had lost, but it never worked. Instead, he only lost more of his own money and that of other people who believed in his new strategies, including my brother and me.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh man. This is a tough story. I'm sorry to hear this. That's gotta put a strain on your relationship.

Gabriel Mizrahi: He tried to get a job at a bank once, but failed the final interview round and never attempted it again. The last 15 years have gone like this approximately once a year. My father gets a new idea for how to fix his life.

Coding a program for investors that would provide buy or sell signals based on a custom mix of indicators, selling food via food delivery apps, driving for Uber, just to name a few. He gets all [00:57:00] excited about it. Does his research. Reads books, learns a new coding language. Then something happens that makes him abandon his plan.

Sometimes it's some drama in the family, his new wife's children getting kicked outta school, his neighbors poisoning his cat, et cetera. Sometimes it's some shiny new project like moving to a different part of the country or completing a spiritual program in a local religion. Sometimes the market conditions just change, making his idea irrelevant.

This cycle has repeated itself countless times. Each time diminishing his self-respect and strengthening his belief that everything he touches is doomed to fail.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Yeah. That's a tough cycle. I wanna say so much more, but I'm biting my.

Gabriel Mizrahi: My father is a highly intelligent man, and he knows a lot about financial markets, so it's understandable that he's been trying to apply this knowledge to find an income source instead of looking for a low paying job.

But he's also not very in touch with his emotions. I think he never fully forgave himself for losing his [00:58:00] clients' money, and every failed project since has just added insult to injury. Sounds like it. That's so hard. The burden your dad must carry around. Very difficult. At the same time, from my perspective, he never truly took responsibility for getting his life back on track, constantly hiding behind distractions, ultimately leading to self-sabotage.

I suggested therapy multiple times, even offering to pay for it, but he never took me up on that offer. So that's very telling, isn't it? Yeah. He doesn't wanna look at this stuff really. Does he?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. When it's too painful or he doesn't think it's productive, maybe.

Gabriel Mizrahi: However, something changed around his recent 62nd birthday.

I think he's now realizing that he'll have to face the music soon as his rental income is not sufficient to cover his expenses anymore. My brother and I have been covering the difference. He's also noticing some age-related health issues, so in his words, even if he wanted to, he wouldn't be able to do jobs that involve physical labor or even long periods of [00:59:00] concentration anymore.

On the one hand, it feels like he's finally accepting reality as it is instead of deceiving himself into thinking that he only needs a couple more months to make his next idea work. On the other hand, I'm afraid that he's giving up and will just keep deteriorating with each passing year. As a son, I feel like I should believe in my father, even if he doesn't believe in himself.

But all of my past experiences as well as money I have lost as a result. Would indicate otherwise.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, dude, this is so intense, but man, well said. You have a very good handle on all of this.

Gabriel Mizrahi: What should I do? Should I encourage my dad to dust himself off and pursue his investment program idea, knowing that he has a ton of unprocessed issues that will keep dragging him down?

Should I encourage him to find a normal job? Knowing it would mean giving up on his hope of earning back what he lost and settling for a life of unfulfilled potential. How far should I go to help him? Should I buy him a car so he can earn money driving for Uber? Should I try to [01:00:00] coach him myself? If he were an executive coaching client of mine, I'm sure I could help him, but it takes a huge toll on my energy, which I need for my own life and job.

How and where do I draw a boundary here that doesn't drag my own life into my father's chaos? Sign supporting my begetter, who's always been a go-getter in earning back this cheddar without becoming his abet in a scheme that could leave him a debtor because he is still fettered by this ancient scarlet letter.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Nicely done. That's sign off more than made up for the iffy one on Q2. Thanks. I did some penance with that one, so I find this story quite fascinating, Gabe. I think it's really fascinating. Yeah, there's a lot in here. It's also an interesting set of questions that he's asking. He is, yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: This

Jordan Harbinger: is

Gabriel Mizrahi: a tough one though.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, there it's very tough. There's so much going on here. All right. Let's start by appreciating what a sad predicament your father is in, and what a predicament he's put you and your brother in. What happened with him in the fund in 2008? That is [01:01:00] tragic, especially if it's true that it wasn't his fault.

Losing millions of dollars from people that you presumably know and then losing your whole livelihood and your identity. And probably your confidence and your mojo that is really traumatizing. Not to get super dark here, but there's a reason you hear about people committing suicide after stuff like this.

The pressure and the shame and the Gelt is just like immense, right? And, and it destroyed his marriage, everything. So in a big way, I feel for your dad here, he's been through something really painful and the fact that he's still around, he's still playing with new ideas, even though he's not being totally realistic, that alone is kind of impressive, and I'm happy that he's been able to survive this.

That does say something about your dad, on the other hand, the way he's survived this, it's interesting,

Gabriel Mizrahi: it sounds like he's kept hanging on through some combination of repression and fantasy.

Jordan Harbinger: Right? The pillars propping him up based on what he shared with us, are basically, I don't want to feel the Gelt and the shame and the vulnerability around what I did slash what happened to me.

[01:02:00] And I'm gonna turn it all around with this next big idea. It's gonna fix everything.

Gabriel Mizrahi: He's perpetually running away from this painful past, but he is also perpetually running towards some fantastical future that never really arrives.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, he's fleeing both, but spinning his wheels and never quite getting anywhere

Gabriel Mizrahi: that I have to say must be incredibly stressful to live with.

And scary.

Jordan Harbinger: Can you imagine, I'm speculating a little bit, but I get the sense that his dad lives in basically a constant state of anxiety, embarrassment, frustration, and he is working very hard to stuff those feelings down or convert them into excitement and inspiration, but like in a very abstract way.

If his refusal to go to therapy is any indication, of course.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But until he's willing to go to therapy or at least go near this stuff with somebody,

Jordan Harbinger: uh, until he is willing to go there. Yeah. I don't think there's any meaningful way outta this predicament he's in. There's no healing. There's no learning. But growth aside, on a very practical level, I'm not sure he'd be able to extract whatever lessons he'd need to extract from that experience to be the kind of entrepreneur he imagines himself to be.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That [01:03:00] might be part of the fantasy too. Like if I can just launch this new product, I won't have to face all of that. I can just keep moving forward, not an issue.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it sounds kinda like gambler's fallacy, right? Like I just need to win this one and everything's right. Again, there's so much. Is riding on the next big idea, his safety, his power, his stability, his identity and his

Gabriel Mizrahi: exemption from this kind of work,

Jordan Harbinger: his very sense of self, I would say.

Which again, the way his dad is going about this, the way he's relating to his past and apparently making his predicament, partly his kid's responsibility. I think it's unfair. I think it's misguided. It's a little gross to me, but I have some empathy for this guy because he's not totally equipped and he's terrified and this must feel like the only way to get back to who he was.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And to be fair, he's a smart cookie. Like he's not totally delusional. He actually is very bright, but he can't quite make it happen.

Jordan Harbinger: That's true. So no, I definitely would not encourage your dad to dust himself off and pursue this investment program idea knowing that he has a ton of unprocessed stuff that will [01:04:00] just keep dragging him down.

Now, to mention a highly questionable track record, he lost more people's money, including you and your brothers. That was even more recently than the 2008. Anything. So, sorry, I'm being blunt here, but it does not sound like your dad is somebody that anybody should trust with their money. So I don't think you'd be doing him any favors by encouraging him and I, I don't know if encouraging him would even make much of a difference.

The only thing that's gonna make a difference at this point. Is if your dad were willing to go back in order to move forward, if he were willing to talk about how his past is informing how he's living his life now, if he showed a genuine curiosity about this tricky pattern of his to get excited about an idea, then to lose steam or to get distracted or find some excuse to not follow through on it.

I understand that must be really hard.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I think it probably feels fatal to him. That's the sense I get.

Jordan Harbinger: But if he can't feel this stuff, talk about it with somebody, weave it into his strategy from now on, what is gonna change? You can't avoid looking at the past and where you are in the present and then just [01:05:00] magically hope for better results in the future.

You can't make him do that work. He has to want to do that, and I'm not getting the sense that he does. Now if he needs some kind of additional income, which it definitely sounds like he does, then yes, I would gently encourage him to find a normal job. And yeah, that probably means giving up on his hope of being an entrepreneur and earning back what he lost and settling for a life of unfulfilled potential.

But given the facts here, I don't know if that's necessarily a bad thing because, and this is a very intense thing to acknowledge, but I think it's important for you and your brother to recognize it. He's not gonna earn back what he lost at this point. Not in terms of the dollars and cents, not in terms of the identity, certainly not with this approach at this stage of his life.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's also an interesting question whether his dad would be settling for a life of unfulfilled potential. I mean, I get why he's saying that because like I just said, he's bright. He's really actually very clever, this guy, and apparently very knowledgeable about the markets. He's teaching himself how to code new languages, multiple language.

Like this is an impressive dude in a lot of ways. But [01:06:00] what does potential mean when you get down to it? It's something I've been asking myself recently, if he really has the potential. Then he needs to be able to capitalize on it and apply it in the world. That ability to make good on your potential is part of the potential.

If he can't do that, then that potential might be less like untapped talent and more like a pipe dream.

Jordan Harbinger: It's an interesting point. When is it untapped talent and when is it just an idea in your head about who you are and what you deserve?

Gabriel Mizrahi: That is a very intense question. You know what, this is exactly what I was talking about on last week's episode when I was describing some of the stuff that these travels have brought up.

You know, like coming to terms with what you're actually capable of. The answer to the question you just asked can be very wounding.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, and that wound, that's precisely what he's avoiding by indulging the fantasy and refusing to open up about this. Now about buying him a car so he can earn money driving for Uber.

I don't know, man. This is alarm fireworks going off around me here. On one hand, I wanna say, sure if that gives him a steady source of [01:07:00] income, a system he can plug into and buying him a car is feasible for you, that could be a nice way to set him up. Why not? Although, I don't know if you should do that yourself.

That should be something you and your brother discussed together. Maybe on the other hand, if you guys are the ones going to him, like, dad, here's what you gotta do. You gotta drive for Uber. You're gonna do it five days a week and you'll be good. I would definitely hit pause because you might be tempted to just give your dad the solution and shove him into this gig when you don't have any indication that he is gonna follow through and stick with it.

It is decidedly unglamorous. It's not as cool as starting a new program and dominating the financial market and making millions of dollars. Okay? I could see him driving it for a month and then giving up because he hates it or he thinks he's above it, or he wants to focus on one of his entrepreneurial ideas.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. And then he'll be in the exact same place, but like with a free Nissan Altima,

Jordan Harbinger: right? My fear is he sells the Altima to pay an engineer in freaking Slovakia to code a janky version of his app that will just never see the light of day. Now, if he comes to you and he goes, okay, I've given this [01:08:00] a lot of thought.

I've come to the conclusion that I can't make these ideas happen. I've decided to drive for Uber. I'm gonna make some money, have a reliable gig, but I need a car. That is a different story, okay? But even if you did this, I would buy the car yourself and let him borrow it or lease it to him for nothing or whatever.

That way, if his plan falls apart, you can take it back or you can sell it, and that prevents your dad from selling it and going, well, it's a gift. You can't tell me what to do with it, or some nonsense like that. But regardless, I would still advise you to proceed with caution. I would want you to have some real assurances that he would honor the agreement to keep the job.

But

Gabriel Mizrahi: man, that would be a different story. The difference there is, is he living in the same reality as his sons, basically? Yeah. Which means coming to terms with what he's actually capable of and what is actually possible at this point in his life.

Jordan Harbinger: And I don't know if that's gonna happen. It sounds like it might be possible as he's getting older, but it's also possible he will always clinging on some level to the fantasy for the rest of his life.

Gabe, I don't [01:09:00] watch Shark Tank and I haven't for years, but you've seen the show, right? Of course. You remember those people that come in and they have light up buttons that go in your jeans that are really lame and they're like, I have two mortgages on my house and I just need to get this over the finish line.

And then everyone's like, oh my God. All the sharks are like, no, I've gotta put this business out of its misery. Like they just choke slammed that guy on the show because we are putting this thing out of its misery. We are giving you the real, we're not fluffing you up like your entire family has done, like other people have done giving you this false hope while still saying no in some ways.

Like a bank gave you a loan. But they should not have done that. They should have said, this is a terrible idea. Don't do it. You're right. It's so cringe, right? Because like Lori Grier or somebody will turn to the girls he's with who are modeling the buttons and be like, would you wear this on a date? And they can just see the look on their face.

Like, sorry Uncle Jim. Terrible. Yeah, and the guy's like just crushed 'cause, but it's like the lamet thing ever. This is kind of that situation, right? It's like, oh yeah, I'm gonna come up with this [01:10:00] program and dah, dah, dah. And it's like, okay, you're not though. That's not real. There are Silicon Valley companies that are trying to come up with this kind of stuff slash aren't trying because it's not a realistic thing to do.

You're not gonna figure this out while you're farting around at Chipotle on your laptop. It's not happening anyway. Maybe he'll get more realistic as he gets older. I don't know. So until you really feel that he's acknowledging this stuff, I wouldn't be too eager to step in and save him. Certainly not at your own financial expense.

I

Gabriel Mizrahi: think the real theme of your letter, and it's such a rich question, is how to come to terms with a parent's limitations, right? And how to make sense of their psychology and how to love them without compromising yourself, which is a bit of a theme on today's episode for sure. These are really big questions.

We could talk forever about them, and they're so wrapped up also in your own feelings I imagine about your life and yourself and the world. This is your dad. This is the person who generally teaches you what it looks like to go out into the world and be effective and [01:11:00] be powerful, and risk failure and survive failure and make an impact.

There's probably a whole other letter behind this letter about watching your dad go through all of this for so long, has meant for you, has brought up for you. I just wanna acknowledge that, but really the bind you're in, I think it's summed up by this one line in your letter when you said, as a son, I feel like I should believe in my father, even if he doesn't believe in himself.

Yeah. That kind of broke my heart. It's a devastating line, and I have to say I'm very moved by it. There's so much in there about parents and children, especially about fathers and sons, I think. And what we owe our loved ones. But for our purposes today, I'll just say I would really sit with this assumption and see if it's true.

Because to be honest, here's another tough pill to swallow. I'm not sure that you should believe in your father, even if he doesn't believe in himself. I think that's his job. I completely agree. I also think that it's his job to have a relationship with his goals and his talents that allows for this kind of doubt and adversity.

In other words, for him to [01:12:00] develop the capacity to bear the injury of struggling and to either learn from his failures and keep going in a new way or adjust his plans and his expectations accordingly. That's not just your dad's job. It's all of our jobs, but it's our job for ourselves. Nobody can do that for us.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's not his job to prop up

Jordan Harbinger: his dad.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's not. So one question is, is it really true that you should believe in him when he doesn't believe in himself? If all the evidence is pointing to the fact that he isn't capable of actually making these dreams a reality, then there's a good reason to not believe in him.

Or maybe another way to put it is, the thing I would believe in is not necessarily your father's ability to become a hedge fund manager or a tech entrepreneur or whatever, but in his potential to face the music as you put it, to step into a more honest understanding of himself and of the world and to take the best possible care of himself and act responsibly within his limitations so that you can accept him as that guy.

I think it's likely that he'll never be the finance God he wants to [01:13:00] be, but he might be able to become somebody better, which is himself. Your dad wars an all that is something worth believing in. But maybe the even more helpful question for you is if it does feel true that you should believe in your father when he doesn't believe in himself.

Why is that?

Jordan Harbinger: Right? Well, I'm gonna guess that withdrawing that belief in his dad, that would also be very hard for him in a very different way.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think so. That's a good point.

Jordan Harbinger: I think he's already lost most of his confidence in his dad, which as you're saying, Gabe, that's probably appropriate. But there's still a part of him that feels obligated to keep supplying his dad with that confidence in that motivation, which might be more like inflating him when he deflates.

And I think that what you're getting at is where does that responsibility come from, because it must go back a long way. And what would happen if he put that responsibility down?

Gabriel Mizrahi: The more we talk about this, the more I realize we're talking about two parallel griefs, right? His dad is contending with the grief of having lost millions of dollars, losing his career, his identity, his [01:14:00] power, his standing, and this ongoing grief of not being able to reinvent himself.

And like you said, he's avoiding that grief in a variety of ways. And our friend here is contending with the grief of accepting his father for who he is, in addition to the stress of needing to make sure that his old man is okay, which I completely understand, whether his father can really go through that grief, whether his father can come to terms with who he is, what he's capable of.

Our friend and his brother might be able to place some supporting role in that, but that's largely not under their control. Whether a friend himself can go through his own grief around his dad that is under his control, and as we come back to time and time again, I would spend more time attending to that process and working through the implications of it for you than trying to manage your father.

Jordan Harbinger: Could not agree more, Gabe. And so on that note, no, I probably wouldn't try to coach him yourself because it doesn't sound like he's really asking for that help or that he'd even know what to do with it. So here too, it might be worth considering whether [01:15:00] the impulse to step in and coach him is a way of also propping him up doing this work for him.

Maybe avoiding some work in yourself by trying to get him to change. The best thing you can do, in my view, and you're already onto this, is to love your father, support your father, accept your father without compromising yourself financially, emotionally, practically. And again, that is a process. It might require constant vigilance and assessment, but I think you're learning more and more what's a healthy and wise investment in your father and what isn't.

So the next step is to embrace that and to enforce that while still showing your dad that you are there for him in the ways that are fair and that are actually helpful if he wants it. And sure, there might come a point where you and your brother need to step in and take care of them if he's truly on the brink of disaster.

There's some grief and acceptance in that too. But I wouldn't bail him out prematurely. I wouldn't deprive him of the opportunity to step up and take care of himself. He's 62, he is not 92. He can still pivot to other options and hold down a [01:16:00] job that'll keep a roof over his head. And maybe the best thing you can do is help him turn that corner.

I'm sorry you're dealing with all this. I can only imagine how intense and sad it's gotta be. But you're also handling this with so much thoughtfulness, so much insight, so much self-awareness, and I know that's gonna lead you to the right stance with your dad sending you, your brother, your whole family, a big hug and wishing you all the best.

Go back and check out our double episode with Joe Loya and our Skeptical Sunday on near death experiences. If you haven't done so yet. The best things that have happened to my life and business have come through my network. It's the circle of people I know, like and trust. You've heard me shill it before and I'll shill it again.

Six Minute Networking dot com. It's free, it's not schmoozy, and there's no shenanigans. I don't need your credit card number. It's on the Thinkific platform over at Six Minute Networking dot com. Dig the well before your thirsty folks, advertisers discounts, ways to support the show on the website at Jordan harbinger.com/deals.

I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn, Gabe's on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi. This show is [01:17:00] created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tadas Sidlauskas, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own.

Yeah, I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer, so consult a professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. Ditto, Joanna Tate. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today.

In the meantime, happy New Year. I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you lots more here in 2026. What if the person charming? Your lonely aunt isn't after love, but her home, her will and her life savings. In this preview, Javier Leyva reveals how modern romance scams have evolved into full blown identity takeovers, hiding in plain sight.

A lot of con artists,

JHS Trailer: they are very generous at first. They're the types of people that are gonna pick up the tab. When you go to dinner, they're buying you stuff. They're very generous and they're doing that. It's almost like they're fattening you up for [01:18:00] when they need that favor. When they need that favor, when they need that loan, you wouldn't question it because this guy's so generous.

Why wouldn't I trust him with money from a distance? We're thinking about these romance scams, like how could anybody fall for these things? Right? But the closer you look into it and put yourself in the shoes of the victim, you realize that when you're in the center of the cyclone, it all makes a lot more sense.

Another thing is when somebody smothers you and just consumes all of your. Or time, that's a warning sign too, because what they're doing is that they're cutting you off from your surroundings. They create the urgency so that you could make stupid decisions and you kind of bypass your reasoning. Don't forget your friends and don't forget your family.

Their opinion counts, and you should take it honestly. When you start seeing all these signs, you recognize that maybe this is a situation where you gotta create personal space. You have to create boundaries. [01:19:00] Most victims of any con artists, they feel so ashamed that they don't want to tell their story because they've been violated, they're trust,

Jordan Harbinger: and they're no longer trusting people to hear how predators turn affection into control.

Listen to episode 1195 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.