1274: Past Indiscretion Keeps Threatening Profession | Feedback Friday

1274: Past Indiscretion Keeps Threatening Profession | Feedback Friday

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Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the Dragnet helping me catch the slippery fish of wisdom from the choppy waters of your life drama, Gabriel Mizrahi. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks. Fortune 500 CEOs, four star generals, astronauts, hackers, undercover agents. This week we had Richard Shotten and MichaelAaron Flicker, authors of Hacking the Human Mind: The Behavioral Science Secrets Behind 17 of the World’s Best Brands..

We talked about how leading brands like Apple, Guinness, Red Bull, how they use behavioral science to influence consumer behavior. They basically analyze specific brands and the psychological principles behind their success, offering actionable strategies for marketers and really for anyone to apply. We also did a [00:01:00] Skeptical Sunday last Sunday on left-handedness On Fridays, though, we take your listener letters, offer advice, and play emotional cat's cradle with the yarn of your naughtiest life conundrum.

Now here we've got an overbook dooze cruise. Today, the lunch buffet is gonna be swamped, so let's dive right in. Gabe, what is the first thing outta the mailbag?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. More than 22 years ago when I was 22, I made a serious mistake and had a relationship with someone who was 17. I took responsibility, served two years in prison, completed 10 years of parole, and have lived with the consequences every single day since.

When I was released, the only work I could get was washing cars in the winter. I slowly rebuilt my life from nothing. Eventually starting my own company from the ground up. Today, that company employs over 130 people and is one of the 10 largest in our industry.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. That is a journey to go from prison for what I assume is statutory rape, which is so intense to have your life fall apart, to then washing cars, to starting a company that becomes one of the 10 largest in your space.[00:02:00]

I'm sure that many people listening will have some feelings about this past, but man, rebuilding your life in this way is a huge accomplishment.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Despite the progress I've made, this part of my history still haunts me. Recently, I had a personal conflict with my business partner. We've been best friends for years.

He recently got into a relationship and his girlfriend didn't like how much time we were spending together, so he started to push me out of his life. I felt like I lost my best friend, but he kept pushing me away until I had enough, and we had a huge argument about it. I asked multiple times to talk about it, but he always said he wasn't ready.

Finally, I asked if I needed to get an attorney because I was worried he was doing something to get me outta the company. He said he needed time, and I told him that time is something I can give him. I just didn't want to know that he was planning something behind my back. He finally told me that he was ready to talk.

That's when he offered me a buyout at a fraction of what my ownership was worth. He has now used my past against me saying that if anyone knew about my background, our reputation and [00:03:00] business would be damaged. Of course, he's known about my past since day one, with no issue ever. I've always tried to live in a way that when people did find out, they wouldn't believe it.

Basically, he's using that as an argument to get me out. But the real reason is our personal issues that he refuses to talk about.

Jordan Harbinger: Just to be clear, these personal issues are that his girlfriend doesn't like how much time they've been spending together, what?

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's what he's saying, but since his partner isn't being totally open with him, I do wonder if there's more to it than that.

Jordan Harbinger: It's hard for me to believe that a best friend and business partner of many years would just turn on a dime like that. Mm-hmm. Just to please a girlfriend who doesn't like how much time they're spending together with this business partner. I mean, I guess it wouldn't be the first time a partner has changed someone's opinion of somebody else.

So maybe it is that simple. My goodness.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Even if it is, there might be other issues around that conflict that added to it in some way.

Jordan Harbinger: I mean, I wanna believe that he would've told us what those were, if he knew what they were considering. He told us that he went to prison for sleeping with a minor, so he is not exactly hiding the ball here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I refuse the offer since [00:04:00] he does the admin and accounting side of the business. He quote unquote, fired me and told everyone in our remote company that I'm gone, even though I'm a 50% partner. We didn't have an operating agreement because we were best friends.

Jordan Harbinger: Uh, that complicates things.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I've lost access to the company I helped build.

I'm not receiving a paycheck and I'm incurring significant legal costs while we work through these issues. Meanwhile, he has everything and I need to provide for my family.

Jordan Harbinger: This is brutal. Oh, I'm so sorry.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It feels like I got kicked in the gut once again from my past, and now when I'm on the floor, I just keep on getting hit.

I've built a great reputation in my industry, but good Lord, I'm just tired of constantly being the hero when I'm building a company and making everyone money just to get the Rugiet pulled away from me when they want more. This has happened multiple times in the past 22 years. For example, I've had customers who wanted out of their contracts threaten to make my past public and quote, unquote, ruin my reputation.

I've had business partners who loved building a company on my back until it [00:05:00] got to a self-sufficient point and then use this to get me out over and over again. It happens just like it is now. I just want someone who can appreciate what I bring to the table and isn't driven by greed.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Fascinating. So this is a real pattern.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I know what I did 22 years ago. I've met the guys who need to be locked up for a long time and are still a danger to society. That's not me. I can't get off the registry because the judge decided it that day.

Jordan Harbinger: So brutal to own that. You made a huge mistake when you were young to be lumped in with actual monsters when your circumstances were different and you've done so much to rehabilitate and build a different life.

Ugh.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Must be crazy making.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, man. The stress and shame that this guy must carry around. I honestly, I don't know if I'd be able to get outta bed in the morning, let alone build a top 10 company in my industry.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Now I'm looking for another job starting over yet again. And it's exhausting. As I talk to new companies, should I tell them my background and once again, relive something that happened 22 years ago.

Signed, shaken at, aghast at the thought of dredging up the past when I've been put [00:06:00] on blast after a lifetime of being typecast.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow, what a saga. So look, I'm sure some people listening are gonna be turned off by this guy's past. I get that. I'm also hearing that he is done his time and really put in the work in a number of ways to be a very different person.

He was 22 when he did this. She was four or five years younger. He is a family now. I just, I believe in that kind of evolution and second chances I do. But also, let's put aside the details of the crime and just focus on how do you recover from something like this. And I just wanna acknowledge this is a major blow.

I'm so sorry. Things played out this way, man. I can hear how hurt and demoralized you are in your letter and how scared you're responsible for your family. This is a terrible loss and it just sucks. So we wanted to get a couple experts in here to advise. The first person we talked to was Corbin Payne, defense attorney and friend of the show, dun Dun.

And the first thing Corbin said was, in his experience, ex-cons are generally viewed with suspicion and a lack of sympathy by the legal system and the wider world. And because we as a society are primed to view excon with both suspicion and contempt, [00:07:00] people like your former business partner, they can often justify their actions as you deserving it.

And they can do so pretty easily. So Corbin had some tactical advice for you. First, from now on, when you start a business, you need to document, document, document. Never again start a business without an operating agreement or a partnership agreement or something like that. Never take a job without something in writing.

Laying out what the compensation looks like, what your job description and duties are, what protections you're entitled to, what your equity is. That is essential. If the other party drags their feet, then Corbin said, at the very least, send a CYA email laying out your understanding of these facts and ask them if that's also their understanding.

If they confirm, great. If they don't reply at all, that's essentially confirmation. If they deny, then at least you have clarity and second. And I assume you're already doing this, if you're suing your partner for your share of the business, bring a ton of documentation to your case dates, history, contributions, major conversations, all of it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But look, it sounds like you might be facing a timeline where this company is sadly taken away from you or where you decide [00:08:00] not to fight for it. And I'm sure that'll be a process of coming to terms with that financially, emotionally, that's a whole other conversation. But if that's where this is heading, Corbin made an interesting point.

He said that if your ex-partner is acting like there was no agreement between you two, then you're probably free to venture out on your own and poach clients and employees from the old company. Now if there's a separate non-compete, non-solicitation, non-disparagement agreement, then that changes things, but it doesn't sound like there was.

Now is that gonna work? Impossible for us to say. Of course, Corbin said that it might be worth it to you to throw down with your ex-partner, or it might not be. That's something you might wanna sit with and decide. But from a legal perspective, Corbin said that it would be completely two-faced for your ex-partner to argue that you are entitled to nothing in the company, that you have no status there, and that you owe some degree of loyalty to the company, such that you shouldn't be allowed to go out and compete against him.

So in a crazy way, this guy might be doing you a favor here, giving you one potential advantage in a really bad situation, especially for [00:09:00] a very driven self-starter like you.

Jordan Harbinger: And you probably have a better shot at this than you think in Corbin's experience. And I totally agree with him here. Customers rarely do business with a company.

They do business with people. In most cases, they don't have a clue about who's in the office doing admin or who owns the company. They just know the guys or gals who are actually interacting with them to do the thing they contracted y'all for, and that's a huge advantage. Corbin said that he's seen this happen before where a business owner felt an employee was getting too big for their britches.

They kicked that employee out for ego reasons, and then the employee walked away with their clients and just ate their former employer's lunch. We'd love this outcome for you, but only you can decide if the rewards outweigh the risks.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. But this approach is gonna be an uphill battle. It absolutely will be a fight.

No doubt about it.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. His ex-partners not gonna take this long down.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, at the very least, he's probably gonna go out and tell every defecting client that you're, you know, a child raping scumbag or whom you know they should absolutely not do business with. So you'll need to have a plan in place for dealing with that.

You probably need to at least consider getting ahead of those rumors by disclosing [00:10:00] them in advance.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I'm glad Corbin brought this up because it's exactly where my mind went when we read this letter.

Gabriel Mizrahi: This might in fact be a story about what it means to fully own a story.

Jordan Harbinger: There's a pattern here of people using his past against him, right?

But that leverage only exists because he's guarding it, right? Mm-hmm. So is the answer, stop guarding it. Maybe

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's an interesting strategy. I also get why it's a terrifying one for him,

Jordan Harbinger: of course. But it's also an interesting question, which is more terrifying coming out and saying, here's what I did when I was a very different person.

Sunlight is the best disinfectant. Or walking around with this freaking sword of Damocles hanging over your head because you're constantly worried. Someone's gonna find out your past and weaponize it against you.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's a very good question. So that was Corbin's idea, maybe being more forthcoming with your story and also making it clear to people that your ex-partner didn't have a problem with your past until he decided he wanted all the money.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. Or until his girlfriend turned him against you, assuming that's even what happened.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But it sounds like you might need to get a job in the meantime. So let's quickly talk about how to talk about your background with new companies. We ran that question by [00:11:00] Joanna Tate, friend of the show, HR Professional for over 20 years, and Joanna was very clear.

She would not advise you to come right out and tell employers about your past. And the reason is, when you get an offer, a company should explain their pre-employment process. You know, drug screen, background check, whatever they require. The Federal Fair Credit Reporting Act, the FCRA protects job candidates from discrimination when an employer uses one of these third party background reporting services, and it prevents employers from asking you about your criminal history before interviewing you, before offering you a job.

Jordan Harbinger: And the idea is to allow you to get a fair interview and assessment of your abilities, regardless of your criminal history.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So if the company uses a third party to obtain any kind of report, your company has to let you know in advance in writing, and you have to give your permission also in writing. So the job offer is contingent upon quote unquote, passing the background report.

And if the employer decides that there's something on the report that poses a liability or is against their standards, they have to notify you that the job offer is on hold. Joanna said that you are then given a reasonable [00:12:00] amount of time, sometimes it's like five days to respond, to provide proof if there are any errors or issues, and then the employer will decide whether to move forward.

So Joanna's advice, you should prepare in advance for this time. The way this would go is you'd get an offer, you would decide if you want to accept it. The pre-employment process would begin. You should ask what their hiring standards are, what they're looking for. They might say that they disqualify all candidates with felonies, or they might say that it depends on the charge and how long ago it was and what the severity was.

That's when you can say that you have a felony on your record from 22 years ago that it's in the past. You have no other charges that your conduct from that point forward has been totally on the up and up

Jordan Harbinger: right, and her advice there is be honest about it, but you don't need to get into the gory details.

Be factual, be brief, and to support you in case you need it. She would gather all the documentation you can that shows that one, you are 22 years old in a relationship with a 17-year-old. There were no other charges against you with other minors. This is limited to the one relationship and any other details that would benefit your story.

Also, she would advise having [00:13:00] a conversation with three people who can give you a great reference and speak positively about your background skills, professionalism. People who if they absolutely need to, could include facts that would corroborate your story. If two of them are former managers, that's ideal.

No relatives obviously.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So bottom line, get the offer. Make them fall in love with you, and then deal with this piece of your backstory if necessary.

Jordan Harbinger: Solid advice that could still create an obstacle. I think you know that, but it's better than shooting yourself in the foot from the jump. Another idea we had was, can you try to get off the registry somehow?

We ran that by Corbin too. He said There's basically two ways off the registry. An appeal showing there were serious deficiencies in the trial or proof of your actual innocence. That method does not apply. Option two is you fulfill some requirements laid out in the registry statute or within a related statute.

If this crime was regarded as low level, sufficient time has passed, you've maintained a clean record. Some states might allow it, but I'm assuming you would've done that already if it were possible. Corbin's experience. A lot of states view any form of statutory rape as an offense that [00:14:00] keeps someone on the registry for their whole life.

No ifs, ands, or buts getting off of it is becoming rarer, and we just, I don't, we don't know what your state's laws are.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So this letter might, in fact be about whether to fully own his story and what that would mean for him, for his career, for his whole sense of self. Honestly, Corbin made a really good point.

He said that even though society is not generally very sympathetic to ex-cons, attitudes are changing, at least a little with some people to quote him here. If you're constantly getting blackmailed over this conviction, it might be time to lean into that responsibly.

Jordan Harbinger: It might be interesting for our friend here to go back and listen to my interview with Owen Hansen.

That was episode 1231, and Coss Marte, that was episode 103. Also Justin Paperny, episode 226, all great examples of guys who incorporated their prison experiences into their personal brands and created very different outcomes.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Look, we're hearing from a guy who does not shy away from taking accountability for what he did, right?

He's not publicizing it, but he has been very intentional about learning and growing, being an upstanding person who's very different [00:15:00] from his 22-year-old self. So I do wonder whether being upfront with people about his past would be the last mile, so to speak, in taking full accountability here,

Jordan Harbinger: right?

There's some connection to Jocko Willink's extreme ownership idea in here too. Episode 608, by the way, another good one for you.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So Corbin respectfully suggested not referring to this whole event as a mistake. We know what you mean. It was a transgression. It went against your character. It doesn't reflect who you are now, totally get it.

But Corbin pointed out that when most people hear mistake, they think accident. If you were really out there referring to your relationship with a 17-year-old as an accident, you might get understandably judged or written off because of that. Whereas you could talk about how you had a moment when you were 22 where you listened to your hormones over your conscience and you made a decision that landed you in prison and that's haunted you ever since.

Jordan Harbinger: Right. That's a different narrative and so a different experience for the audience.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You know, Jordan, I can't stop thinking about the interview you just did with Joe Loya.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, interesting parallel.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I was very moved by that [00:16:00] guy's story and not just moved, but like genuinely invested in him despite the fact that he did a lot of awful things when he was younger.

I was listening to the interview and I was asking myself like, man, why am I rooting for this guy so hard?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah,

Gabriel Mizrahi: and I think it was a few things. One of them is his backstory, right? The childhood he had, what his father did to him, his background. It's hard not to empathize with somebody who is very badly hurt when they were young.

Jordan Harbinger: Right? Or at least to understand them

Gabriel Mizrahi: or at least understand what the roots of it are. Exactly. Another thing though was his extreme ownership. To your point, he wasn't justifying his crimes. He wasn't hiding the ball, he wasn't editing around certain inconvenient facts. The other thing is just his personality and his style.

He's gracious, he's gentle now. He's reflective. Yeah. It could be

Jordan Harbinger: funny. Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Funny. Always helps. And he has a long history of living by very different values in service of very different experiences. Just like our friend here. So like how do you not root for that person, even if you know what they did?

It's almost impossible.

Jordan Harbinger: I know. You can almost reverse engineer a playbook from that interview for creating a personal [00:17:00] narrative that gets people to root for you. Totally. So yeah. Joe Loya, he might be the perfect model for our friend here. Episodes 1264 and 1265. By the way, just shamelessly plug in the library on this one.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think we should also talk about this pattern he has of working with people who end up using his past against him. I think there's probably more for him to know about how that gets created.

Jordan Harbinger: I have the same thought, like there's more to that story.

Gabriel Mizrahi: He's saying, I'm tired of constantly being the hero when I'm building a company, making everyone money just to get the Rugiet pulled out from me when they want more.

Jordan Harbinger: Right? I just want somebody who can appreciate what I can bring to the table and isn't driven by greed. I mean, that's not a totally ridiculous request.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I can understand why that feels like the narrative that he is living with.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, he has to dig deeper than that though. If he really wants to have more control here,

Gabriel Mizrahi: he has to because he is the hero in this story as he put it.

So. What kinds of business partners is he choosing? You know, like what kinds of customers does he tend to work with? What do these people have in common? Are they in fact greedy people? Do they maybe underappreciate what he brings to the table? Did he clock those qualities early on?

Jordan Harbinger: Why isn't he putting [00:18:00] certain protections in place like a partnership agreement?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Is it because he naively trust people? Is it because maybe he's afraid of conflict or afraid of signaling to a new partner that their partnership might hit the skids one day?

Jordan Harbinger: He might also be so exuberant about the start of a new business that he doesn't want to deal with certain details. That's very common.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Good point. I also wonder if he doesn't feel that he can push for those protections because of his past, because he already feels that he's starting with the chips down. So he kind of just needs to take what he can get and be grateful and just pray that it all works out.

Jordan Harbinger: That's a really interesting theory.

I would not be surprised if that's playing a role in all this. 'cause I think a lot of the patterns in our lives are informed in part by. What we believe we deserve,

Gabriel Mizrahi: which might be another reason to consider fully owning his story. I am starting to wonder if the leverage that people have over him doesn't just come into play when they want to take something from him.

I wonder if it's already in the mix on his side of the equation from the moment they begin together, and that might inform the mindset in which he meets people. How he negotiates for what he wants, how he protects himself.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:19:00] Also, how is he showing up in these partnerships along the way? Right. That must be part of the pattern too.

Right. Business breakups, they don't happen by accident. I don't think all these partners woke up one day like, today is the day I'll steal the company from Pete. 'cause I feel like it. That's not how this goes.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Just 'cause Andy thinks we're playing basketball too much. Right. It's time to change. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

What I wanna know is what conflicts came up leading up to being pushed out? How did he handle those conflicts? Did he inadvertently give these partners ammo to push him out somehow? Or reasons to justify these obviously selfish decisions or, or reasons not to invest in him in his story in some kind of lasting way?

Gabriel Mizrahi: All excellent questions, especially in light of that one detail. When he said that he kind of, things came to a head and then he kind of exploded at his partner. I don't know exactly how that played out. I'm not saying it's all his fault, but does his anger play a role in this? Is it hard for him to really get people To be honest with him, I just, there's so much more about the relationship that is probably playing

Jordan Harbinger: a role.

I mean, you slam a guy's head through some drywall, no big deal, right? No, I'm kidding. As long as you have

Gabriel Mizrahi: an operating agreement.

Jordan Harbinger: That's right. No, I, I wanna be clear though, [00:20:00] I, that previous thing that I mentioned before, I'm not blaming him entirely. It's possible that he, this, it's possible this was always these people's plan, or it occurred to them that they could do it and get away with it, or that they would've done it anyway somehow.

I mean, I, I'm not trying to say like this is your fault.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's also true that he has a talent for building businesses that are worth stealing. So

Jordan Harbinger: there's that. Yeah. Look, on the bright side, you build businesses that people wanna take from you, right? That's what's so complicated about all this, but I'm with you, Gabe.

We can't hear a story like this and not give him the gift of being like, hold up. What these people did to you absolutely sucks. They stole from you. They blackmailed you, they compromised you and your family. And you were there too. So if you really wanna shift these dynamics, if you wanna do everything you can to prevent this from happening again, then you have to work to widen the aperture here.

So you can appreciate your role in all this, whatever it might be.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Well said. And that can be painful to acknowledge. It's hard.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. But it's also the only truly empowering stance here. Look, he, he can only, he can figure out if this is true. He gets to decide which pieces of this problem he wants to own.[00:21:00]

But what this loss is teaching him, I think why it might've had to happen in some senses to a force him to look at certain qualities of his and B, push him to revisit his relationship with his story. Easy for us to stay over here without stolen businesses or criminal histories. I mean, actually I do. I only have one stolen business, so I guess I know where have I speak on that front to some degree, but no felonies in my past.

Still, it's essential to at least consider this, so I know how scary and hurtful this experience must be. But try to stay open to what this situation is showing you. Take the hit necessary to enjoy the growth, to learn to tell a new story, and we're rooting for you, man. Good luck. You know what you can put your hands on without getting charged with a felony.

The fine products and services that support this show, we'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Cape. Most of us don't think about our mobile carrier, but maybe we should. Companies like at and t, Verizon and T-Mobile have been in the news again and again for data breaches and selling customer data.

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Now back to Feedback Friday. Alright, next up.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey guys. My stepbrother and I have been brothers for almost 20 years. My fiance and his fiance have been friends for about as long, since 2021. We've all hung out and had plenty of sleepovers, playing cards till early in the morning, laughing and generally having a good time.

Then sometime last year, my fiance and his had a falling out and they are no longer friends over what I think is mostly stubbornness, but also a few low blows here and there. Now my stepbrother is getting married in 10 [00:25:00] days and I have yet to receive a wedding invitation. I sent him a text on his birthday recently and got no response.

Mind you, he and I have had no problems at all, if anything, out of us, four brothers, I think he and I were the closest in recent years. I've been wanting to call him for about a month, just on the off chance that he has no idea. I haven't been invited.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, he knows. Come on man. If he had, so maybe people who don't, who haven't been married, don't know this, but like when you do wedding RSVP stuff and you don't get an answer from somebody that you actually give a crap about, you notice right away 'cause you're like, wait a minute.

I, I didn't hear from so and so, or your mom's like, so we're all going. Or like Tom said, he didn't hear from like, come on, it's impossible for this to go unnoticed, essentially.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That was until I called a couple of times and now I think I have my answer.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh,

Gabriel Mizrahi: even if he did answer, the only thing I could think to say is, bro, where's my wedding invite?

Shit, ed.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that would've been really, that would've nailed it, huh? I would not go with that [00:26:00] script, but I totally get the anger. So just to be clear, this is a little confusing. I assume he called and then his brother ignored the calls like you did with the birthday text. That

Gabriel Mizrahi: sounds like that sounds, that sounds what it sounds like.

Yep.

Jordan Harbinger: Gabriel, I'm using my. Super high emotional intelligence cushion to realize that, to get a picture of poor emotional communication or poor communication in general, all around in this family,

Gabriel Mizrahi: your powers of deduction have never been stronger.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Uh, a lot of big conversations not happening in this family.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. And therefore, a lot of speculation and confusion, and it just makes everything harder.

Gabriel Mizrahi: My mom has tried to talk to the bride to be, but she offered no explanation and promptly shut the conversation down.

Jordan Harbinger: Gabriel, I feel like you're gonna agree with me on this. I find this way of dealing with conflict ridiculous.

So frustrating.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So frustrating.

Jordan Harbinger: I'm angry at my brother-in-law and his fiance, and I didn't invite them to my wedding, but I'm not gonna tell anybody why.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, I'm racking my brain trying to imagine a scenario where this would be necessary.

Jordan Harbinger: There is no reason to not tell anybody about what [00:27:00] happened.

Come on. Even if our friend here or his fiance did something terrible to her. That still isn't a tenable position. Then you say, you did such and such thing to me, or they did such and such thing to me and I'm super angry and I can't have you them, whatever at the wedding, and I'm not ready to talk about it.

You don't just go like, I'm not saying anything, but they're not invited. That's all you need to know. No, that is not all I need to know. My son is not invited to my other son's wedding. I need to know more. You need a reason.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, and it's weird that the mom didn't press the issue as well, but also if they did do something terrible to this bride to be, then they would probably know you don't refuse to talk about it and then leave your fiance's closest brother and your former friend, best friend or whatever, wondering if they've been completely cut off or if their invitation just got lost in the mail.

That sucks.

Jordan Harbinger: I know we're missing a lot of information here, but this strikes me as avoidant and incredibly childish.

Gabriel Mizrahi: What's your take on all this? How do I handle this and are we just getting to a point now where family members are just cutting each other off for no reason, signed [00:28:00] something old, something new, something borrowed.

Now I'm blue. And a conflict avoided in her shoe.

Jordan Harbinger: That's a good one. I like that one. That's a new genre of signoff I like. Again, kudos. Well, I think we already answered your first question. There's so much more we'd need to know about these conflicts to weigh in on who's to blame, who needs to apologize, whether you guys should be at the wedding, all of that.

What I can say for sure is this is not a helpful way to handle a problem. If your brother and his future wife aren't even willing to talk to you, how are you gonna make progress here? And that leaves you and your fiance with some really tough feelings, even if you and or your fiance were in the wrong here.

This is both compounding the problem and leaving you with a lot of hurt and a lot of confusion. And it sucks. It really does. I'm sorry about that, man. I assume you'd wanna know if you did something wrong and try to repair things, but they're making that impossible somehow for whatever reason. And so I have to assume that this says more about their personalities, their capacity for [00:29:00] conflict, their empathy for you guys, even if your fiance is responsible for some of the low blows that you mentioned.

Gabe, I am barely wrapping my head around how extreme it is to not invite a sibling to your wedding. The problem would have to be really, really serious. This can't be a problem that'll eventually blow over or be resolved because this is a permanent decision and they're escalating it. The brother's not gonna be in the photos.

Everyone at the wedding is gonna ask, where's Rob? Where's Nicole? And they're gonna have to be like, oh. Nicole and Stacy are in a tiff, so we didn't invite them, which is either gonna make them look like the childish assholes that they are being, or they're gonna have to invent some way worse story to make themselves not look like complete dicks for excluding them.

Which is then of course going to further damage. Our friend, here's reputation in the family and he's gonna have to undo that and then explain like, that didn't happen. It's just going to cause so much more drama. This whole thing is a mess.

Gabriel Mizrahi: All because they don't want to have a [00:30:00] difficult chat for a few minutes.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. Absurd. Yes. It's ridiculous. I'm actually deeply weirded out by this. This is like one notch below. Not visiting somebody in hospice when they're dying because you're mad at them for not lending you their car. One time like this is, if I was really mad at somebody in my family, I'd invite them and then be like, we got some crap to sort out, but in the meantime, have a drink.

It's my wedding. Let's not screw this up by being dickheads to each other. Of

JHS Trailer: course,

Jordan Harbinger: get in the photo smile. Pretend like you want to be here. Like it would have to be so bad. It would have to be like the stepbrother tried to sleep with my bride to be, it would have to be at that level. It couldn't be like some petty money dispute or like she said something that made me feel fat, like it's, oh, he said this thing about my job, or he called me a loser.

Like, all of that has to be water under the bridge, or at least put on pause so you can have a once in a lifetime family event, and then you can get back to being petty assholes to each other.

Gabriel Mizrahi: He said that his read on the breakup between the ladies is that it's mostly stubbornness in addition to whatever those low blows were, which,

Jordan Harbinger: right,

Gabriel Mizrahi: I assume means that they're just [00:31:00] both so entrenched in their positions that they can't even understand each other and just talk this out,

Jordan Harbinger: which again, is so childish.

I'm not even putting all that on Stacey. The gals both need to lean in here. I mean, I get it. It's hard not to be identified with your position, but they're all adults supposedly, right? If they can't put their positions down for 10 minutes and hear what it's like for the other person, I don't need to be cruel, but everybody needs to grow the hell up here.

So this is probably pretty complicated, but you have two basic options. Option one is you continue to reach out to your brother and or his fiance. You press the issue. However, you can respectfully force the conversation so you can resolve this or at least understand it better. Maybe you send a couple texts or emails brief, respectful.

I'm very confused. I'm sad if I did something wrong. I'm happy to talk it through with you. I'd really appreciate a few minutes with you to understand what's going on. Try to book that conversation before the wedding. You might also want to ask a friend or family member to gently encourage them to chat with you.

Maybe even [00:32:00] mediate if that's necessary. I know your mom sort of tried and your future sister-in-law shut that down, but maybe mom wasn't the right person or she took the wrong approach. I don't know. Option two is you accept the message and you stop trying to repair things, at least for the time being, which means making peace with the idea that you won't be at the wedding, which would be super unfortunate and really sad.

No way around it, but that seems to be the position that they're boxing you into.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Honestly, if I were in your shoes, I would probably write that letter to your stepbrother, and I would basically say that it's been very hard and confusing to be cut off and excluded from the wedding. If there is an issue between you and or between your partners, you are eager to hear them out, understand the problem, find a resolution in a spirit of like genuine curiosity and openness, of course, and that despite all of this, you love your stepbrother and you want to be a part of his life and his big day so that he really feels that.

And that you would love for the conversation to happen as soon as possible, ideally before the wedding, so that nobody in this situation regrets missing out on sharing this important event. I think it's important for him to remember the stakes here, [00:33:00]

Jordan Harbinger: dude, if you ignore your family member after getting a message like that, assuming they didn't, you know, again, kill their dog or sabotage their business or try to sleep with their wife or something.

Which isn't the case because then you would know what you did. They

Gabriel Mizrahi: know what they did.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Right. If you ghost your brother after that, you are an avoidant dickhead. I'm sorry, I just don't understand this.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't disagree, but the fact that he's probably avoiding his brother in solidarity with his fiance.

Yeah. Such an interesting parallel with the first question. 'cause the business partner might have been acting in solidarity with his new girlfriend. It's interesting.

Jordan Harbinger: Mm.

Gabriel Mizrahi: If the problem is not even between the two brothers, that complicates things even further. That is also a problem if he's, that's why he's uninviting them.

But it's a totally different problem

Jordan Harbinger: and that's not something our friend here can really resolve. It's not his business really.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No. If that is what's going on, then he's definitely affected by it severely. But it's not really his place to tell his stepbrother. It might be harder for him to say, Hey. This is how much you should take your spouse aside and this is when you should do it, and this is when you should not do it.

That's not fair.

Jordan Harbinger: But dude, the fact that he's making his brother pay the price for something that's [00:34:00] between the ladies, again, unless we're missing something big here that's even more ridiculous and meaner,

Gabriel Mizrahi: it's tough to accept that our friend here is paying the price, not just for a fight that isn't his, but for a dynamic that he's not responsible for and cannot influence, which is kind of insane.

But it might also help him remember how much responsibility he ultimately has here.

Jordan Harbinger: Right? It might not lessen the sadness, but it might alleviate the Gelt

Gabriel Mizrahi: and maybe in some way help him empathize to some degree with a brother who is probably equally clumsy at managing conflict if the family weighs any indication.

Jordan Harbinger: Oof. Yeah. Well look with only 10 days to the wedding, oh my gosh. I would keep that letter fairly brief. You don't have a lot of time. Make the main agenda this chat with your brother. I wouldn't use this letter to argue the facts. Don't defend your position. You can do that when you talk if necessary. The whole thing sounds petty and stupid and probably doesn't even need to be addressed honestly.

But if your brother accepts the offer, then you know what to do. Make it safe for him to be totally honest with you. Listen to him. Try to understand his perspective. Even [00:35:00] if most of this has to do with the gals, maybe he's got some issues of his own that you guys don't know about or your history is making it hard to talk, that is fair game and then you can share your perspective.

Hopefully help him see things from your point of view. Whatever you do, don't escalate it. Don't attack. Definitely don't hit him with the, Hey shithead, where's my wedding invite? Comment above. As tempting as that might be,

Gabriel Mizrahi: even if you don't resolve every single aspect of this conflict, even if you don't get the gals to make up as well, it's definitely worth trying to get to a good enough place that you're at least invited to the wedding.

That would be a win for me.

Jordan Harbinger: And if your brother ignores your attempts to talk, then you'll know that you really did everything you could for the time being and you'll have to go with option two, but hopefully with a little bit less regret.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, and probably with a way worse gift from the registry, which is one upside.

Jordan Harbinger: That's right. You can exact your revenge by getting him the $6 water goblets that aren't dishwashers safe. That'll show him.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's interesting that he is asking if we're at a point now where family members are just cutting one another off. Mm-hmm. For no reason. I think it's probably rare for people to cut one another off for no reason, but that obviously [00:36:00] doesn't mean it's always for a good reason.

Jordan Harbinger: No. The idea does seem to be in the zeitgeist right now. Like I I, we've normalized cutting people off too much and Gabriel, I don't know if you see this on social media, but people make fun of this all the time, like. Oh, you don't wanna do totally reasonable thing. Well, that's toxic and a boundary for me, and it's like, all right, whatever.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I've actually been very happy to see the articles taking down that approach, because yeah, obviously sometimes you have to cut somebody off, you know, in a ridiculous situation. I think those situations are pretty extreme, fairly rare. But yeah, there is this line of thinking out there, and especially online, where the advice is just so overly simplistic.

The advice is basically if anyone hurts you or challenges you or inconveniences you in any way, cut them off. Like don't look back, which is of course absurd.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, totally un nuanced. And those same people are like, why is everybody, there's loneliness epidemic and it's like, didn't you cut someone off because they got your order wrong at Starbucks when they went to go get coffee?

Like, didn't you label your ex toxic because they don't like noodles? Come on.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It does. [00:37:00] To be fair, your noodle choice does say a lot about your personality, but I digress. Agree,

Jordan Harbinger: hard, agree

Gabriel Mizrahi: that does very little, if anything, to strengthen our muscles for healthy conflict, to increase our capacity for this kind of difference in injury and repair.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. Which is essential if you wanna be a functional human being.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Essential and also very rewarding. I mean, this is actually what makes me the saddest about this whole cutting people off for no reason thing like what his brother seems to be doing to him. He's not just making things harder for his family, he's also missing one of the most beautiful experiences in life, in my view, which is being close with someone you love, even when there's a problem between you and growing through that and coming to understand yourself and the other person better, and then enjoying a deeper relationship as a result.

Jordan Harbinger: That's so hard, but that is so crucial.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So if we're at a point where family members are cutting one another off regularly, then yeah, I think something is very wrong. But what we've been getting at here is even if you're blameless in this situation, even if this is the ladies fight to resolve or your stepbrother is being avoidant, it would still [00:38:00] benefit you to be curious about his reasons for ghosting you, even if they don't really hold up, because that will get you closer to the resolution you're hoping for.

Jordan Harbinger: For sure. I think what you're getting at is if the implication of his question is, my family might be cutting me off for no reason, like so many families do, so maybe I don't need to take much of an interest in their reasons, then he needs to revisit that assumption.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's right. Because that might also be a reflection of his family's whole way of dealing with conflict as well.

Jordan Harbinger: And if you do revisit that assumption, you'll also know that you handled this very differently from how your family tends to handle these things, which I think would be the real victory here. So good luck. You can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Keep your emails concise. Try to use descriptive subject line.

That makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're still waiting on a huge promotion from your avoidant boss. You're wondering how to support a loved one who's getting outta prison soon, or your child has asked you for help procuring an uh, adult product. Still realing from that one last week, Gabe. Hope we managed to be open-minded without being completely off the map.

Whatever's got you staying up at night lately. Hit us up at friday@jordanharbinger.com. [00:39:00] We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. By the way, if you haven't signed up yet, come check out our newsletter. Wee bit wiser. It's a bite-sized gem from us to you delivered on most Wednesdays. It's an under two minute read.

Highly practical. Jordan harbinger.com/news is where you can find it. Alright, what's next?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe, I wanted to reach out after listening to your Skeptical Sunday episode on testosterone replacement therapy. I'm 41 years old and had been on TRT for about a year. After a period of unemployment, I returned to working as a firefighter temporarily.

I'm now back in FinTech hashtag Six Minute Networking.

Jordan Harbinger: Love that. Incredible that you use Six Minute Networking your way from firefighting to working in FinTech. That's a hell of a pivot. Amazing. Best ad for the Six Minute Networking course I could have made this week. Obligatory plug Six Minute Networking dot com.

It is free. There are no shenanigans. All right. Won't mention it again today.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Coming back after years away, my energy was extremely low. Recovery was brutal and fatigue felt constant. My doctor [00:40:00] suggested checking my testosterone levels. They came back low. Although I was never told the number and I was prescribed testosterone, the results were life-changing.

My recovery improved dramatically. My energy came back and my libido improved. I genuinely thought that I had just been feeling run down from aging and chasing a three-year-old around the house. At the same time, my wife and I had been trying to get pregnant for about a year. I remember asking my doctor how TRT might affect my sexual health.

The answer focused on libido and energy, and that part was true, but infertility was never discussed. When I heard your episode cover the infertility risks, my stomach dropped. I immediately stopped TRT and went to see a urologist. I had hormone testing and a semen analysis done. The test itself was not as fun as it looks in the movies.

Yeah. Instead they had me take a cup home and come right back.

Jordan Harbinger: Ah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Walking past your three-year-old and wife on your way to provide a sample is kind of awkward.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, yeah. That's hilarious. That's [00:41:00] true. You dude, I got a vasectomy. I think I talked about that, right?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. So they have to prove that it worked.

It almost always works, but you know, stuff goes wrong. Uh, I did get an infection, uh, but like some people, like, I don't know, really wants to reconnect and grows back. So they're like, yeah, come on in and then we'll give you a cup and you go in the bathroom and like, you know, you do your thing and whatever.

So I go back and I'm like, I'll take the cup. And I'm like, where can I do this? And she's like. We don't have a room for that. She's like, just go into the restroom. So I'm like, okay, wait,

Gabriel Mizrahi: is it at the doctor's office?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I didn't know that that was a thing. I thought they sent you to a special place for that.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, so did I. But she's like, Nope. And then I go to the bathroom and like there's some dude camped out in there. So I'm waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting. And this dude is camped out in there and I'm like. Okay, the only other choice is another bathroom. So I walk really far. I go there and the stall is like out of order and there's a urinal only.

So I'm like, screw it. So I'm like, what do I do? I go back to the original bathroom, the dude is still in there. [00:42:00] I'm like, excuse me, are you gonna be much longer? And he like. Doesn't answer me. Okay. So I'm like, uh oh.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So is he also providing a

Jordan Harbinger: voice? I don't know if he's providing or if it's like an old dude who's just asleep on the pot.

Okay. But he's moving around so I, I wonder 'cause I was like, we're at a hospital, I wanna make sure this guy's alive. He's moving around, he's just like being a jerk or has headphones in. Maybe

Gabriel Mizrahi: Brian had his noise canceling headphones while he is watching a little something on his phone to get in the mood.

Jordan Harbinger: 100%. So I'm like, screw it. I parked close. I'll go to my car. Okay.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No, stop it.

Jordan Harbinger: I'm already laughing at myself for this.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Wait, wait, wait. So paint me a picture. Were you in the parking garage or on the

Jordan Harbinger: street? No, I'm now to the street, but I'm in an open air parking lot at Kaiser Permanente. Okay. You're

Gabriel Mizrahi: gonna end up on the same registry as our friend from question one.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. So I am like in the car and I'm like, okay.

Nobody can see into the windows of my car. 'cause the windows are really, really tinted. So, okay, thanks. So I'm [00:43:00] like in their most awkward, uncomfortable position ever to try and get a sample. Okay. And I'm like working really hard and I'm like, screw it, I gotta close my eyes and do this. 'cause I can't just like be looking at like a parking lot sign that says like E row, like lot E row seven or something.

Right?

Gabriel Mizrahi: By the way, illegal in California. Both tinting your windows and rubbing one.

Jordan Harbinger: So now who's loring? Everybody. So, so I'm like. Fi my eyes are closed. Right. 'cause I'm trying to focus really, really hard.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Sure. And I,

Jordan Harbinger: I open my eyes 'cause I hear a noise and there's a woman getting into the car next to me. And that's when I realized,

Gabriel Mizrahi: no, no,

Jordan Harbinger: that I'm in my dad's car, not my car. The windows are knocked into that all

Gabriel Mizrahi: whatcha talking about. How did you not know?

Jordan Harbinger: I just forgot. I driven my dad's car and I was like looking out and like, it's cloudy days. So there was nothing which like, oh my God.

Gabriel Mizrahi: God. Oh my God. Stop it. Did you at least put [00:44:00] a sweatshirt over your lap or,

Jordan Harbinger: so he, thank God, did not notice.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, okay.

Jordan Harbinger: Thank God.

That's why I'm not in prison right now, by the way. I

Gabriel Mizrahi: feel like that would have to be some kind of defense if you ever had to go to court for that, like. I had to give a sample and there was a guy, like there would have to be an explanation.

Jordan Harbinger: That's why I'm not on probation right now is I didn't get caught.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's why you're still allowed within a hundred feet of a school.

Jordan Harbinger: Sorry, I'm allowed to drop my kids off at school.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh my God. So you successfully completed the procedure?

Jordan Harbinger: No, actually I ended up having to go home, which I think is a little ridiculous, but also much more legal than what I was planning on doing before.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You're allowed to do that at home?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, exactly. You're allowed to do that at home. So then I just drove back and I was like, it's been unrefrigerated for about 10 minutes. And she's like, don't worry, it's fine. I'm sure.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Wow.

Jordan Harbinger: So that was the end of that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: My god. Well, I don't know what to say. That's the real W of shame

Jordan Harbinger: anyway.

Nothing like rubbing one out in the guest bathroom while your toddler watches Paw Patrol at full volume 15 feet away. So I can relate buddy. I can relate.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. [00:45:00] Sounds like you were doing your own Paw Patrol and so is our friend here.

Jordan Harbinger: That's right. I'm gonna, I'm gonna start calling me Time Paw Patrol.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Well it sounds like that's gonna come in handy a lot for you. Um, I am, let me collect myself. And, uh, go on with the letter. The results were worse than I worried about. The doctor told me my sperm count was non-existent. Zero hearing. That was devastating.

Jordan Harbinger: So tough, man. I'm really sorry to hear that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Now I'm dealing with the crash from stopping TRT, extreme fatigue, low energy, and my testosterone level is currently at 53.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, okay. Normal is like 300 and above or Oh wow. Approximately. It could be like two 50, but that's low. 53. Looks like you typoed and forgot a digit. Like 530 is okay. 53 is not, that's not good.

That's 95-year-old man testosterone.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The urologist has started me on medications to try to restore natural production, and I have upcoming appointments with an endocrinologist and a reproductive specialist. [00:46:00] Emotionally, though I am struggling, I feel angry at myself for not asking better questions. I feel guilty like I may have taken away my son's chance at having a sibling.

My wife is supportive, and I know we'll find a way forward, but this has been heavy.

Jordan Harbinger: Totally get that. I totally understand. The anger, the sadness, it hurts to feel like you missed something.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: I also hate that doctors don't always give you the info you need. I think that's infuriating and irresponsible.

But it sounds like you're exploring some promising options here. I'm not a doctor obviously, but I will say anecdotally, I know a lot of guys that have abused steroids and other hormones for years and years and years and years and years, and they've been able to recover, and they're not young either.

They're my age. So it's the idea that you've damaged yourself permanently. I wouldn't jump to that conclusion just yet.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I also have a practical concern. Insurance covered the TRT injections, but it's not covering the medications needed to restore fertility. That adds another layer of stress, and stress causes issues [00:47:00] with testosterone production.

Jordan Harbinger: So frustrating.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm sharing this partly to say thank you. Your episode may have changed the entire course of my family's future. If I hadn't heard it, I would still be taking testosterone injections and wondering why we're not getting pregnant. I'm also hoping that you might offer some perspective on next steps, questions I should be asking my doctors or resources I should explore.

Do I have a legal way forward to get some financial help paying for my fertility treatment? How should I go about finding a lawyer for this, and what are some natural ways of boosting testosterone? Sign looking for a glimmer of hope about my swimmers.

Jordan Harbinger: So as you guys probably know, we don't usually take medical questions on the show because we're not doctors, we're not health experts by any means, unless the question is, you know, psychological aspect of a health problem or something like that.

But I wanted to feature this letter because I think it's an important cautionary tale, and I know the listener would want other people to benefit from his story too. I consider this a really important contribution to the episodes I've done with experts on fertility and hormone replacement therapy and libido and all that jazz.

So [00:48:00] to the listener who wrote in, so sorry that you've been through all this, this really sucks. I actually find it super disappointing and again, unconscionable really, that some doctors aren't telling patients about the risks of doing TRT, including the fertility thing. That is crazy to me, and I feel bad that you're beating yourself up for not asking better questions.

I get that. You know, most of us, we trust the doctors maybe a little too much sometimes to give us the information that we need. They are the experts supposedly. And it sucks. You feel this regret and this Gelt and as a man, I totally understand why, but like I said, you're going to all the right specialists.

It sounds like you have some new avenues to pursue, and I really hope some combination of these treatments works. And on the bright side, I, I don't mean to minimize this, but how wonderful that you already have one son already. This doesn't mean you'll never have children, and there are ways to have another one, whether it's using a donor or adopting, although you obviously do not need to be thinking about all of that yet.

So, like I said, we can't offer medical advice, but I do have a few broad thoughts. First, I would ask chat, GPT or any AI about your [00:49:00] situation, your appointments, the treatments, all pertinent information, and see what it recommends. You ask your doctors. It can be really good for this sort of thing, not medical advice, but it can be good to give you questions to ask the doctor.

I would also literally ask your doctors, please tell me all of my options. Please tell me everything I might be missing. What are the upsides? What are the risks I wanna know at all? As far as finding a legal way to get some financial help to pay for your fertility treatment, your best bet is to talk to an employment attorney or a health law attorney.

If your company doesn't explicitly offer this benefit, it might be kind of hard to make a case for it, but you never know. In terms of finding a lawyer, avo.com is often recommended as one of the best attorney directories. I would also google and chat GPT your way to others. Maybe look for articles written on this topic, see if any attorneys wrote them or look up high profile cases.

Track down the attorneys who worked on them. Lawyers who advertise, look, they're not automatically bad, but you do wanna find a reputable one. And again, I can't really weigh in on natural ways of boosting [00:50:00] testosterone. I'm sure you can find answers to this online yourself. I know certain supplements, exercise routines, diet, general lifestyle, really working out and sleeping is the best thing.

But this is a question for your doctors 'cause you have medically low testosterone, so it's different. Again. So sorry you're going through this my friend, but thank you for sharing your story with us. You might help a lot of people listening right now, sending you your wife and your son a big hug. Enjoy that Paw Patrol as much as you can.

We're rooting for you bud. Speaking of PAW Patrol, get your paws on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Mint Mobile. Now that the holidays are over, you might be feeling like you got a big spending hangover, which is why this is the perfect time to cut back on one of the most unnecessary expenses.

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Jordan Harbinger: This episode is sponsored in part by Audible. I burn through at least two audio books a week, prepping for the show. And let's be real. There is [00:52:00] just no timeline where I'm sitting down and staring at a page. That's not how I learn at all. Audio is my mode. I'm listening on Audible while I'm getting my 10,000 steps in, sipping coffee on the couch, all while jotting notes down into my phone.

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Jordan Harbinger: If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and find our advice valuable, I invite you to do what [00:54:00] other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors.

To learn more and get links to all the discounts you hear on the show, go to Jordan harbinger.com/deals. If that doesn't work, email usJordan@jordanharbinger.com. We'll dig up the code for you. Thank you for supporting those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, recommendation of the week.

I am addicted to lip filler,

Gabriel Mizrahi: so I was at my friend Brenda's engagement party a few weeks ago, and one of our friends of the party was going around taking photos with a small old school, disposable looking, but actually digital camera and just taking photos of the friend group and meeting new people, having a lot of fun.

And I was like, oh, are those party favors or did they leave them on the table for the guest to play with? And she said, no, I brought it. I'm just gonna take photos of the event and then I'll give it to Brenna and Forrest as a gift. So they have, you know, more photos, fun photos on the party, which I thought was a really cool idea.

So the camera she was using is called Camp Snap. It's a digital camera, it's eight megapixels. It comes with an SD card. [00:55:00] It's not the greatest camera in the world, but it's solid and it's super fun. And the whole idea behind this camera is that a lot of summer camps ban screens, including digital cameras.

So they made this camera without a screen, but it's still digital. And it's like $70. Pretty affordable for a digital camera. Easy to give away as a gift. You also would not get upset if you lost it or damaged it. I thought this was a cool idea, both the Camp Snap and the idea of taking pictures on an event and then giving it as a gift to the hosts.

So that's my record of the week and we'll link to it as always in the show notes.

Jordan Harbinger: Also, in case you didn't know, there's a subreddit for the show. If you wanna jump into discussions with other listeners about specific episodes. Episodes you liked, episodes you didn't like, a lot of conversations happening over there.

I am always lurking around in there. Gabe's in there. A lot of the other team is in there, and thousands of listeners are in there. You can find it on the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. Alright, next up.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, by most measures, I have a great life. I'm 30 years old, recently married to a wonderful partner and living in a vibrant city with strong friendships and plenty of hobbies.[00:56:00]

The one area that has never really clicked though is my career. After college, I drifted into whatever jobs came my way. During the pandemic, I stumbled into sales. The pay and flexibility were great, and I had some early success, but the monotonous grind of cold calling eventually burned me out. That pattern repeated across four sales roles over five years.

Initial traction followed by declining motivation and eventual termination despite the eventual outcome. Every manager I've had is offered to act as a reference. I'm consistently told that I'm curious, friendly, creative, and coachable, but I lack the competitive instinct needed for sales and my people Pleaser tendencies make handling objections tough.

I also struggled to build quick rapport. I'm great at forming deeper relationships over time, just not in the first 60 seconds of a cold call.

Jordan Harbinger: This is all super useful information, some really positive stuff, some helpful criticism. I really appreciate how open and clear you are about it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I recently took a customer service job for [00:57:00] stability while I try to figure out what comes next.

Thanks in part to the wisdom and advice from your show. I've spent years journaling, reflecting and exploring what might be a better long-term fit. I've always been drawn to the idea of becoming a therapist, but the thought of going back to school held me back. Now at 30 and newly married with goals like home ownership, parenthood, and a stable retirement, I feel ready for a real change.

I've talked with friends in the mental health field, met with admissions departments, and for the first time feel a genuine sense of excitement about a career path. Here's my concern. I have a history of burning out on things that I initially love. It's like going to the gym for the first time. You get these beginner gains where you see these really noticeable improvements really quickly.

But after a couple of months, you plateau and your gains only become noticeable over a longer period of time. You can add weightlifting to the list of my abandoned interests.

Jordan Harbinger: That's super relatable.

Gabriel Mizrahi: This is how I am with my hobbies too. I've always loved learning, so when I dig into a new topic, I get a huge rush.[00:58:00]

I pour myself into it and learn maybe 75% of the subject in a few months. Then I reach a point where it would take years of dedication and practice to unlock the last 25%. The high that I get from new information wears off, and the diligent effort required to unlock that next step just doesn't appeal to me in the same way.

So I dive into the next shiny new thing where I can get that rush again.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, very common.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm also a big daydreamer. When I unlock a new interest, my brain immediately skips ahead, 10 steps. For example, when I got my first sales job, I led my team in my first month, so I immediately started fantasizing about how fast I could move up the ladder.

In my head. I was on the path to being CEO in five years, but inevitably I hit that plateau and fall back to earth. Then the monotony starts to set in. I get bored and I pivot to a new point of interest. Before sales, I spent two years deeply committed to standup comedy, made some real progress, then abruptly lost interest.

I studied music in college with total dedication. I had a [00:59:00] detailed schedule for every part of my day, which removed the choices that would lead me to blow off my study. But by my senior year, I could barely bring myself to practice. I've tried to apply that system to jobs, but at a certain point, the feeling of boredom and lack of stimulation feel almost unbearable.

So instead of locking in, I watch a YouTube video about my shiny new interest. I feel a genuine calling to therapy, but I worry about repeating this pattern. How can I know this passion will last? What guidance do you have for someone who wants to pursue meaningful work without burning out or losing steam?

A few years in. How can I build sustainable long-term commitment to a path that finally feels right? Signed searching for my sticktuitiveness before I dive into the thick of this brand new calling and business. When my boredom is almost an illness,

Jordan Harbinger: man. Okay. Such a great question. First of all, thank you for being so open with us about all this and for sharing so much of your struggle to stay committed.

I've dealt with this exact same thing in my life. I know [01:00:00] Gabe has too.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

Jordan Harbinger: We've talked about it a bunch, and I think everyone listening right now can relate to how hard it is to A, know what to get excited about, and B, stick with what you're excited about,

Gabriel Mizrahi: especially when it stops being exciting,

Jordan Harbinger: which it always, which always, always does.

Yeah. That always happens. Yeah, always. I I would imagine everyone listening right now is like, yeah, I did that with, and then just fill in the blank, like some hobby or some sport. So a few general thoughts and then let's talk about this new career of yours. If you've been listening to the show for a while, you know that whenever we get questions about procrastination, avoidance, losing steam, we often end up talking about how we're not actually avoiding the task, we're avoiding the feelings that the task brings up.

We're avoiding an experience, which is always an experience of ourselves. That might be anxiety, it might be frustration, it might be shame, it might be fear, it might be disappointment. In my experience, it's usually some mix of all the above. And so we turn away from the task and then we go, oh, I'm procrastinating, or I have trouble concentrating.

Or, uh, I guess this really isn't the thing for me after all, when really it's usually [01:01:00] resistance and it's not even resistance to the thing, it's resistance to the things that the thing brings up in us, which is always some form of distress

Gabriel Mizrahi: or sometimes worse. I mean, look, to be honest, you know, there might be some a, d, d like quality here, and if that's what's going on, then it might be really good for him to know that that's how his brain works.

And brains like that do have a certain relationship with tasks. And sometimes things get really exciting for a short amount of time, and then you lose interest and you move on and harder to stick with things. So. That's always a possibility. But I think what you're getting at Jordan is that even if that is part of the equation here, there's always this other resistance.

And yeah, sometimes that is some form of distress we're avoiding. Sometimes it's also something even stronger, which is a narcissistic wound, and we'll do a lot to protect ourselves from that.

Jordan Harbinger: And then we're back to that shame piece again. I think the shame is usually the most distressing of the distresses, but maybe that's just me, but so if we really acknowledge that deeper stuff and decided to tolerate those feelings while we kept at the goal and worked hard through them, I mean, that sounds great, but that is hard, [01:02:00] man.

I don't know about you, but I'll do a lot to avoid getting angry with a problem at work. I'll do so many mental gymnastics to avoid confronting my creative limitations. I could be in the Olympics for that because it sucks. It sucks to sometimes be in a real relationship with your goals and with yourself, because then you have to be in touch with all this stuff and your excitement, your confidence, your inspiration and your shame, your anger, your boredom, all of it.

And I think for most people that's just really hard.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It really is. And well put, Jordan, I relate to this, like you said, so hard myself. I also think that one of the feelings worth paying attention to is this boredom that came up a few times in his letter. He talked about the monotony setting in the high, wearing off the next step, not being as appealing to him, burning out.

Look, sometimes when we get bored, we're just bored. Right? That's fair. We're not into the thing anymore. It's not our calling. That's fine. For example, I think it's very likely that this guy's calling is not sales great. You know, we obviously have to pay attention to what actually lights us up, but oftentimes boredom is not just a lack of [01:03:00] interest in something, but a defense as well.

And sometimes it's like a withdrawing from the thing or a form of protest, like we've talked about on the show before. And that protest kind of is like, well, this is too hard. I don't like this feeling. I need help, whatever it is. So I'm going on mental, emotional strike, you know, unconsciously, I mean. I'm bored, and that makes boredom actually a very rich experience and sometimes a really important signal that there might be more going on beneath the surface.

Jordan Harbinger: Super interesting. Yeah, so the question is what are we withdrawing from or what are we protesting against?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, like you said, it's always ourselves. Our friend here has moved among a lot of different careers and interests, and some of them are for him, some of them are not for him. But what he seems to be confronting over and over again and what partly makes up the pattern that he's now hoping to break is the parts of himself that he meets when the honeymoon phase is over.

Jordan Harbinger: When the initial high wears off. Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. So what's standing out to me in his letter is he has a good grasp of this pattern, which I commend him. We're not hearing what [01:04:00] those parts of himself are, what feelings he's probably contending with when he hits a wall in his pursuits.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, to be fair, he is saying, I've always loved learning.

I get this huge rush and then I get to a point where the the high wears off and I don't wanna put in the effort to unlock the next step, and then I seek out that rush again.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. And that's great for him to see, but that's a pretty heady way of understanding what he's coming up against. What he's sharing with us is mostly intellectual.

It's about learning. It's about the rush, it's about the high, it's even about the limit of his interest and his concentration. I'm not hearing those more primitive feelings you talked about a moment ago, like the anxiety, the fear, the shame, especially. What those feelings might be revealing about his personality.

Jordan Harbinger: That's true. So that would be a great next step for him. He loves journaling and reflecting. I would journal and talk about these layers. What's underneath the boredom, the monotony. What specific thoughts and feelings come up when you complete that first cycle of excitement, and then you're looking at the next phase and going like, oh shit.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think the high and the rush and the inspiration that he's describing are also [01:05:00] qualities worth looking at in a way. Those are the flip side of boredom. Right. But they might be functioning in a similar way to the boredom. He's talking about them, like their objective qualities of any new pursuit. Right.

There's always that exuberant, intoxicating honeymoon phase and, and then inevitably dies. Right. I wonder if it might be more accurate to say that the high and the rush and the shininess are the byproduct of the way that he's relating to these pursuits. It might actually be an inner experience. That rush might also be a defense against these very same difficult feelings he's trying to avoid.

It's just that the defense is more easily funded by his excitement and by the novelty of the thing that he's just taken up, as well as his own genuine passion for these things to be fair. And then it's more easily sustained by his ignorance at the very beginning of how hard it is really to stick with something for the long term and become truly great at it.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Fascinating. So if your theory is correct, what you're saying is the rush he gets from new things might be a defense against these difficult feelings,

Gabriel Mizrahi: partly a defense. Yeah,

Jordan Harbinger: [01:06:00] partly a defense against these difficult feelings. And when the honeymoon period wears off, that defense starts to crumble. Or like the lifeblood of that defense dries up.

And so he unconsciously looks for a new one and the new one is boredom.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's exactly it. And he can decide if that fits. But I do think that's very common, and I have seen that in myself many times over the years.

Jordan Harbinger: I'm just thinking about the implications of that for relationships. 'cause we usually talk about the honeymoon period with people.

Right. And now I'm thinking like. Is the excitement in mania of new love, is that also a defense?

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's a really interesting question. I think it might be, yeah. I also think that with people specifically, there's other stuff that fuels the honeymoon period. You know, there's that fantasy and that projection.

We've talked a lot about that too.

Jordan Harbinger: But there's also fantasy in our friend hears story as well. He's talking about his career and his hobbies, not people, but there's still this daydreaming thing, and maybe that's also preventing him from being in a real relationship with the reality of his goals because he's indulging a story in his mind.

But like I also get this right, I've done the same thing. When I was a new lawyer, I was low key fantasizing [01:07:00] about being some baller partner who works three hours a day and owns four vacation homes or whatever. But I then I, you know, before I realized I hated the law, or more recently, a couple years ago when I started working out really seriously, now it's been like five years, but I, I barely started managing my diet and I was already like, I'm gonna have a six pack.

You know, I think we all do that to some degree, and maybe that's even useful on some level because it is exciting and it is motivating.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think the difference between a fantasy being a flight away from reality and being something closer to a dream or an aspiration, which is what you're talking about, the difference between those two things is how aware you are of what you're doing, and then what you choose to do with that fantasy.

In our friend here's case. The way he's putting it, when he unlocks a new interest, his brain immediately skips a head. 10 steps. You know, he gets a job, he has a good, good first month, and then like in his head, he's like, I'm the CEO in the corner office in five years and I'm making a million dollars a year, or whatever.

So, okay, if he's going, wow, I have a knack for sales. I could be really good at this and I wanna lead this place one day. So what do I need to do week to week to put myself on a [01:08:00] path to rising up? I would say that's a fairly healthy form of fantasy.

Jordan Harbinger: But if he's living primarily in the fantasy that he has the corner office and 5 million in the bank while he neglects his call sheet and his sales numbers plummet and he realizes he actually hates talking to customers.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly.

Jordan Harbinger: Totally different. Right? So it's not that fantasizing is inherently pathological.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Not at all. I would say in a lot of cases it's very productive and it's actually kind of beautiful. I mean, it's one of the fun things we get to do as humans,

Jordan Harbinger: right? But how do you fantasize? What do you do with your fantasies?

That is the difference.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly. What kind of mental PAW patrol are you up to in your career bra?

Jordan Harbinger: That's right.

Gabriel Mizrahi: As a successful and unsuccessful fantasize myself, I can tell you that those two, I think deep down we know they feel very different,

Jordan Harbinger: can confirm.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Also, what makes this interesting in the context of his question is that there is kind of a grandiose quality to his fantasy, right?

He's the CEO, he's leading a team, he's crushing, and I wouldn't be surprised if there were similar grandiosity when it came to music and standup. Whenever grandiosity is on the scene, I think that's always a moment to go, oh, better keep an [01:09:00] eye on that. Because grandiosity is also a well-known defense.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I took the words right outta my mouth. Once you start imagining you're the man, or you could become the man, you're probably not in touch with the man you are right now. Mm-hmm. Who still needs to work hard and struggle and fail and get up in the morning.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. And be in touch with all of those feelings that we keep coming back to.

That's exactly right.

Jordan Harbinger: So, okay, let's get tactical. In my view, you cannot know right now that this new passion for becoming a therapist is gonna last. No one can we choose our goals. We set out on a path. Part of the journey is not knowing what we're gonna confront along the way. Failures, adversity, fear, boredom, as well as joy, growth, expansion.

We just don't know. That's anxiety provoking, but that anxiety, as we keep saying, that might be one of the feelings that you are wanting to avoid.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Good point. Like even by asking this question in the first place, like if I could just guarantee that my passion is gonna last this time, then I won't have to deal with this problem, this anxiety.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. But in light of everything we're talking about, I think there's a much better question you should be asking right now, which is, if my passion doesn't last, or rather knowing I'm [01:10:00] gonna go in and out of my passion over time, no matter what I choose. How can I understand this pattern in my life better?

How can I put the right systems and relationships in place to sustain me when things get hard?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Totally agree. That is such a great question.

Jordan Harbinger: I know it's the right question because I've been in this guy's shoes many times myself. I know what works. You want some guarantee that your choice is the right one, whatever that means, but really what you should want is to know that you are the kind of person who can make the choice.

Right?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. Damn well said.

Jordan Harbinger: That's some Jedi ish. I know, but it's true. It's, and you can only learn to commit by actually committing and riding out these waves of inspiration and deflation, excitement and frustration, accomplishment, and injury. There's just, there's no other way.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Also, he would have to do that whether he decided to be VP of sales or a bodybuilder, or a comedian or a therapist who treats patients.

That said, though, I do think that a person who feels called to be a psychotherapist. Probably has an additional responsibility to really crack this problem. I hope that isn't too presumptuous of me to say I'm not walking this path myself. Part of me would love to [01:11:00] walk this path myself. I don't also have the courage or dedication yet to do that, and I know that you're working hard to work on this quality, but the reason I'm saying this is this particular problem you are wrestling with because it gets at such a crucial part of who you are, and these are such universal challenges for all human beings.

These feelings like shame, that we all share your ability to understand them, to understand this pattern, to make progress, to bear your own fear and shame and frustration and boredom, that's part of your own therapeutic journey, and that's also crucial to being able to help your patients work through those things.

So the stakes here are high in the best way. This isn't just a practical question like, how do I get over this tendency of giving up on things so I can start a new career? It's also how can I use this training as a therapist to evolve and then be the best possible therapist I can be.

Jordan Harbinger: So true. And you know, if he really takes this on and learns how to conquer this, this theme could even become part of his specialty.

At the very least, he could learn to identify it in people when it comes up and really help them through it. But yeah, [01:12:00] he has to be able to do that in his own life first.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I also want to quickly say, I know we've given you a lot to think about here, my man, but I'm also really interested in this thing. You said how your people pleaser tendencies made handling objections tough when you were in sales.

It's funny because that's an example of a quality that might suggest that sales is just not your game, but just like procrastination, people pleasing also has deeper roots. I imagine that this quality will also come up in your career as a therapist, because as I'm sure you know, being a great therapist is not about pleasing your clients all the time.

You wanna be kind to them, of course, you wanna support them, you wanna see them succeed. You wanna be a source of hope and strength, of course, for sure. But that will also mean challenging your patients from time to time, pointing out difficult truths, moving them into challenging territory, risking, inviting conflict with them.

The interesting theme on today's episode, being able to bear some of these very same feelings when you and a patient get into something difficult, hit a problem, go through a rupture, which therapeutically can be extremely valuable. So I just think that's another important quality to keep an eye [01:13:00] on, because switching to therapy is not going to allow you to avoid conflict with people, and it might even increase it.

So if this people pleasing thing is designed to avoid provoking other people, or might speak to a certain brittleness on your part, a struggle to hang in tension with people. Then I wonder if that might echo the struggle to stay committed to your goals when they get hard, because that's a form of tension too.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. We have thrown a lot at you, but to wrap up, just to be super practical, I would go into this new career knowing that the honeymoon period will end, the shiny new thing will get dull, and that isn't a failure or a crisis. It's just where the defense ends and the real work begins. Create good habits, develop good systems, find routines that support your studies.

Surround yourself with people who are invested in this goal of yours, who will support you, who will cheer you on and hold you accountable. That is crucial when you get bored and it will happen. Try to lean in rather than lean out and try to notice when you're turned off by the material or when you're avoiding a feeling.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [01:14:00] I think he should actually expect his journey to becoming a therapist, even though he's so lit up about it, to lose its luster. To just know that, that, to expect that that's part of what is gonna happen, and trust that that's actually a good thing, because then he won't just be in a relationship with a fantasy or with his excitement.

He'll be in a real relationship with the thing itself, and I think that's huge progress.

Jordan Harbinger: You do that you're gonna kick off your career as a therapist with a huge win and an even greater capacity to meet your future patients with more empathy, more insight, more life experience. I'm excited for you, man.

Good luck. Go back and check out Richard Shotten and MichaelAaron Flicker on our Skeptical Sunday on left-handedness. If you haven't done so yet, show notes on the website, advertisers discounts, ways to support the show. Also on the website at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram.

You can also connect with me on LinkedIn, Gabe's on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi. This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tadas Sidlauskas, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. [01:15:00] Our advice and opinions are our own. I might be a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer.

Consult a professional before applying anything you hear on the show. Ditto Corbin. Payne and Joanna Tate. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.

You are about to hear a preview with Ken Burns who says The real American Revolution wasn't a clean break from Britain, but a messy, violent civil war whose contradictions we are still debugging 250 years later.

JHS Trailer: A good story neutralizes the binary, yes and no. You know you're bad, left, right, young, old, rich, poor, whatever the dialectic is you're involved in.

A good story can sort of neutralize it and go, oh wow, I didn't know that. There's no test. We'd share with you our process of discovery. So all the stuff I've said about the revolution, I had no idea going in. And I am [01:16:00] so overwhelmed with the joy of acquiring it, that giving it away feels even better. The ideas are really, really powerful.

At the heart of this, the idea that you could be a citizen, that you could have a say in your government after your family has worked at the land for a thousand years for somebody else, and all of a sudden you come here and you own some land and farm and you can do this and you're literate. Democracy is a really messy form of government, but it's better than all the other forms because the other forms involve a kind of tyranny or authoritarian certainty.

Democracy's messy 'cause you actually have to listen to people that you disagree and you have to compromise. When that breaks down, then you lose the possibility of, of having it. America comes out of violence, it's born in violence. What would you guys do? What would I do? Would I be a loyalist? Would I be a patriot?

What would I be willing to fight for? What would I be willing to give my life and all that I've accumulated in my life? My fortune would I do that? We mutually pledge to each other, our [01:17:00] lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor.

Jordan Harbinger: For more on what else we've been getting wrong about our own origin story.

Check out episode 1238 with Ken Burns. This episode forces you to confront the version of America you didn't learn in school. I've got homes.com is the sponsor for this episode. homes.com knows what when it comes to home shopping. It's never just about the house of the condo, it's about the homes. And what makes a home is more than just the house or property.

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