1328: They’re an Ideal Pair, but Is Her Baggage Fair? | Feedback Friday

1328: They’re an Ideal Pair, but Is Her Baggage Fair? | Feedback Friday

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Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] This episode is brought to you by Lufthansa. Lufthansa Allegris is an innovative, elevated travel experience across all classes, focusing on each person with their own individual and situational needs. Look forward to your own feel-good moment above the clouds. Visit lufthansa.com and search for Allegris to learn more.

Lufthansa Allegris: all it takes is a yes.

Welcome to Feedback Friday. I am your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, our very own Zen Daddy, Old Plank Sinatra over here, Gabriel Mizrahi.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, wow. I love those. Yeah. Bravo. Well done.

Jordan Harbinger: Full disclosure, I did take that from an Instagram video I saw with a bunch of yoga-related nicknames that a show fan sent me. Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Got it. Plank Sinatra is one for the books, though.

Jordan Harbinger: That's right. I thought you would like that one. There's a couple other gems in there as well.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I am never going to be able to do chaturanga without thinking about that. Thank you.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, you're welcome.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Thank you for that.

Jordan Harbinger: Consider yourself vinyasified. On the Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most [00:01:00] fascinating people, and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

And our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks: Russian spies, former jihadis, arms dealers, generals, rocket scientists, and war correspondents. This week we had Simone Stolzoff, author of How to Not Know: The Value of Uncertainty in a World That Demands Answers.

We talked about how to increase our capacity to tolerate and even start to appreciate the uncertainty that surrounds us. So some great Feedback Friday-related wisdom in this one. Really enjoyed it. We also had Eric Zimmer on big changes happening slowly over time. We also had a Skeptical Sunday last Sunday on matriarchy.

On Fridays, though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious sound bites, and spin Gabe's most precious self-care and enlightenment regimen into increasingly zany pet names. Gabe, before we doze dive, you're still in Rio, man, living it up.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. I decided to stick around for a few more days, 'cause I'm, I'm actually [00:02:00] having a really good time here.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, the hostel looks pretty. Like, you know, dude, the hostels are underrated, man. I know it's like, people are like, "I'm too old for this," but it's a cool vibe.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No, dude, and I forgot to tell you this. So I had booked two different hostels for Rio, and then I, for some reason, when I was in Bahia I got this weird feeling about the first one.

I, I don't know why. So I emailed them- Just to confirm the reservation, and they wrote me back saying, "Yeah, we don't exist anymore." Okay.

Jordan Harbinger: That's always fun. Well, I mean-

Gabriel Mizrahi: There is no reservation.

Jordan Harbinger: Thanks for letting me know, though. I mean, I'm just trusting my life to your establishment. At least I didn't try to knock on the door at night.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Which, if you don't exist, why are you accepting reservations? Yeah. And also, why are you answering emails? Like, who is paying you to respond to emails? Uh, the... Are you the owner and you're just being nice? Is this an autoresponder? I do not know.

Jordan Harbinger: You're lucky that they told you, but you're also lucky that you are not staying at a place where they're like, "Oh, we closed, but we didn't do the thing where you stop taking reservations and payments and stuff.

So we just didn't unplug that part of the machine. And yeah, don't come here." I mean, it's just, I know some people don't know how to run a business [00:03:00] well, but this is sorta table stakes, right? If your hotel doesn't exist, stop taking bookings.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm just glad that they did let me know, because it would've been a little annoying to be panic googling hostels at-

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: 11:30 PM while standing on the street with all my bags. In a city, by the way, where everyone says not to walk around with your phone in your hand. I did not realize Rio was... I mean, I know there are parts of Rio that are dangerous, but, like, even in the popular areas, people just supposedly roll up on a motorcycle or even on foot, grab your phone and run. It's a thing.

Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Anyway, so I just took it as a sign to stay in Bahia for one more week, which ended up being perfect because I really n- I needed one more week there to just soak it all up, 'cause it was truly an extraordinary place. But so then I got paranoid, so I emailed the second hostel I booked because, you know, "Do you guys exist?

Uh, just checking." And I did not hear back, and I emailed them two more times, and there was still no response.

Jordan Harbinger: So is that just a Brazil thing or a Carioca thing or?

Gabriel Mizrahi: I guess. I, I don't know. I think it might be just a hostel thing. But I decided to risk it. Worst case scenario, [00:04:00] whatever, it's a story.

Jordan Harbinger: Love that for you. I can't hang like that. I need a confirmed reservation and need them to be like, "Is breakfast included?" I don't even want to hold the door when I arrive-

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, wow ...

Jordan Harbinger: Most of the time. I'm bougie now, man.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You're in a different life phase, papa. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I got them kids. I can't be bothered anymore.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You're going to love the rest of the story, because I got an Uber from the airport, and the hostel was, like, 15, 20 minutes away, and we drive through this neighborhood called Leme, which is pretty nice. You know, like, middle class neighborhood on the north side of Copacabana. Kinda seems like it's in the process of bougiefying a little bit. And then the Uber driver turns off of a residential street up this very, very steep hill.

And instantly, like, no gradual transition, just instantly the vibe gets very different.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, yeah. South America do be like that sometimes. When I was in Chile, they were... I was like, "Hey, is this area safe? I want to go get something to eat." He's like, "Yeah, there's a really good burger place and all the bars are down there, but if you cross that street, that's... you don't want to be on that side of the road." Stop, stop, stop. And I was like, "Wow." Yeah. Yeah. There's, like, one side of the street where all the bars are and the restaurants and the burger joint, and it's all fine and [00:05:00] totally... Yeah, d- don't leave your phone on the table, but if you cross that street, it's like you are going to get shivved for your phone.

That's right.

Yeah. You can order a hamburger at the stand, but, uh, don't go to the bathroom- Yes ... 'cause, uh, things can get very different. It's so weird. I can see, though, on my map that the hostel is halfway up this hill And then I realize, oh, my hostel is in a favela.

So for anybody who doesn't know, a favela's what...

Like, am I being unfair to say it's a slum? I don't know if that's like PC term, shantytown kind of thing.

Shantytown. Yeah. I mean, those are the words. I mean- Yes ... favelas are like, if you don't know, these organic neighborhoods that develop in big cities in Brazil. Like, they're kinda like DIY communities that grow up the mountains, just like no permits, no rules, just concrete, glass.

You know, just it's a free-for-all, and it's basically like imagine God got drunk and played Tetris with cinder blocks. That's how I would describe it, and then a drunk spider did the electrical wiring. That's a favela.

So I took a shantytown tour when I was in Peru. I just booked it, had [00:06:00] super high reviews.

So I show up at the bottom of the hill, and this guy's like, "All right, you guys ready to go into the largest shantytown anywhere in, in, uh, South America?" And we're like, "Okay." And he's... We're walking up the hill, and there's this huge fence and stuff, and he's like, "By the way, this fence is not to keep people out of the favela.

This is to keep us in the favela," basically. And it- he called it a shantytown, but yeah. And, and it was funny 'cause my buddy's like, "Hey, it's a gated community." And the guide just started laughing super hard 'cause he was like, "Yeah, yeah, it's a gated community, bro. Gated, the, except it locks on the other side."

But it was- These are crazy. I mean, the one I went to outside the capital of Lima, Peru, it was as far as the eye could see, which wasn't that far 'cause of the air pollution, but it was still pretty darn far, and all the way up all of the hills. Huge, sprawling developments. He basically explained that all these people came to live in the city, and there's just no room in the city, and they didn't build housing for these people, but they're a necessary part of the economy.

Sound familiar? And the reason they came to the city from the countryside was this, like, basically during the Cold War, Sendero [00:07:00] Luminoso, which means Shining Path, was this communist guerrilla warfare organization that I think was promoted by the Soviets as well, supported by the... And they basically would come to every village and go, "Give us your sons to fight with us, and if you don't, we're just going to murder all of you."

And it was like, okay, so instead of j- you either join this guerrilla warfare group and get, like, you know, live that life, or you escape and try to go to the city. And so everyone came to the city and had nowhere to live and had no money and couldn't farm and just, like, built homes, like you said, cinder blocks.

And what are you going to do? You go somewhere.

Yeah.

Yeah, and built cinder block homes, and yeah, wired it up, jury-rig, whatever you want to call it. And yeah, it has power, it has water, it had everything, but it was just

chaos. Just pure vibes, bro, and gravity and sheer determination. It's wild.

They're also kind of weirdly cool and beautiful.

They can be. There's a lot of bright colors. There's artwork everywhere, but yeah, they're... I didn't feel unsafe 'cause I was with a local tour guide, and it was, everyone just kinda, like, knew who we were and was like, "Hey." And we helped move some- Rocks or whatever. But aren't the ones in Brazil kind [00:08:00] of run by, like, drug gangs?

I, I've read the police don't go there. Is that- You m- what do

you mean you moved some rocks? You got sent to a labor camp in a favela?

Well, basically the, the guide was like, "Hey, would you guys mind moving..." So there was an old lady moving rocks, and we all felt bad. And the guy was like, "We can finish this job in 10 minutes if everybody just grabs a couple of these rocks and moves them."

Oh. So we just did the- That's nice ... we just moved all these rocks that she was going to use to make a fence that were in a pile, and we just moved them. It's a really good way to not

get shivved in a favela.

Yeah, the community was kind of like, "Oh, thanks for the help," 'cause this old lady was doing it by herself.

And I'm like, what about all the kids playing soccer that are just- Yeah ... not

Gabriel Mizrahi: helping at all. No, but some of them are a little dodgy. They can be dangerous. Some of them, not all of them. Especially the higher up the mountain you go, it can get more and more dangerous. And I, I do think that a lot of them have been cleaned up or, or somewhat pacified over the last 10- What does that mean?

Like, they bulldozed it? I mean, what does- No ... how do you clean it up? Not quite, but, like, s- first of all, some favelas have been actually incorporated, if that's the right word, and they are like cities that have... You know, they're part of the infrastructure [00:09:00] now, and they're not just lawless. But also before the World Cup and the Olympics, I think they made a big push into a lot of the favelas here, and the police went in.

And they call it pacifying, which is maybe a euphemism for something. But, so they've calmed down, but this one is not that dangerous. It's a little intense. It's pretty raw, but it's not one of those favelas where a drug lord will stop you with an AK-47 to make sure you're not filming with a GoPro or whatever.

This one's chill. That happens? That's scary. That happens, yeah. So the Uber driver drives up the hill, and the road is so narrow Two cars can't even pass at the same time. And he's starting to, like, grunt and click, which I gather is Brazilian for, "I am not happy about this." And then he just pulls over to the side of the road, and he's like, "Okay, you're here."

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, okay. That's the international language of you're on your own, broseph. I'm over it. Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You take it from here, bro. Ugh. And, uh, but I can see on the map that we're not at the hostel. So I try to tell him in my limited Portuguese that it, it's a little more up the hill. Would you, can you please go a little bit more?

And he's like, "No, no, no. It's, it's just right there on the points." No, I'm good. And that's when I realize the [00:10:00] neighborhood is a little dicey. Either that or he just didn't want to make a seven-point turn to get back down the mountain. Yeah, getting a tip for that one. I did, even though he wanted me to get up the mountain on my own.

But I had a suitcase and a bag with all of my audio gear unsecured in my backpack, and this hill is, like, 35 degrees- Right ... slope. And I love a good workout, as you know, but not after taking two flights to get here, so. Sure. We negotiated, and he drove a little bit more, and then he stopped again. And then short of the hostel and I realize, okay, I'm just going to have to, I just have to walk the rest of the way.

I'd be a little nervous, I suppose. I was a little nervous, but I was also like, "We got this. We've done worse," you know? So I climb the hill with my stuff, turn the corner, and I find the hostel, and the front door of the hostel is unlocked and you can just walk in. And so I was like, "Okay, this can't be that bad."

And in fact, this place turned out to be pretty great.

Jordan Harbinger: Love a good hostel. It, it's been, again, many years since I stayed in one, but probably most of my best trips have been in hostels.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It really is the best, man. Just all these random travelers, you know, [00:11:00] cool common areas, people hanging out, different languages.

It's very stimulating. It's kinda like being on a pirate ship where everybody was conscripted from different countries, but they all want to be there or something like that. It's, it's a vibe. Yeah, a

Jordan Harbinger: pirate ship in a shanty town overlooking Rio de Janeiro. The video you posted today gave me some FOMO. I've definitely had some funny hostel experiences.

The ones that stick out, though, are not at all appropriate for the show. Like, oh, that hostel in Japan where, you know, you're in a room, like in a dormitory situation. And I remember there was a girl from Switzerland, and she was like a, what is that- I already know where this is going. Yeah ... avid outdoor people.

And she, like, walked around in her underwear the whole time. And this Japanese girl was like, "Oh, I'm so shy 'cause everyone's in their underwear, like guys and girls, and we're all sharing a room." And there was a- another, like, a Black dude from, I don't know, Canada, I think More power to them, but him and that Japanese girl were having the loudest of sex on the bottom bunk for the whole night.

Like, didn't care about anyone else. It's beyond gross, 'cause it's just [00:12:00] so, like... They pretended like no one could hear them in the other rooms. Not just that I wasn't above them at the time and, like, other people could see them. Didn't care at all. And I was like, "Wow, man. I wish I had that level of not giving a crap about anything."

Well-

Gabriel Mizrahi: Holy smokes ... I thought your story was going in a different direction, but I guess you just enjoyed it in a different way. Um, it's the rite of passage, being kept awake by the primal sounds of the other people in the 12-person bunk bed dormitory. Yes. Yeah. You would like this hostel, not because of that...

As far as I know, that stuff isn't happening, but I'm in my own room. I think you would like this place. You w- you would hate the breakfast spread, I can tell you that.

Jordan Harbinger: It'd take me a few days to settle in, stop calling the Marriott Bonvoy concierge to bring up fresh towels. But the upside is so many stories.

So much stimulus, if you will. Exactly. But you're in your own

Gabriel Mizrahi: room, so it's, like, it's livable. I'm in my own room. Yeah, no. Mm-hmm. I am also past the living in a dorm with eight other people phase of my life. Also, I can't record Feedback Friday from a bunk bed while seven German and Dutch tourists watch football on an iPad and talk about how they were ripped off by [00:13:00] booking.com- Yeah

or whatever it is. Uh, or worse. Even

Jordan Harbinger: Jase, our engineer,

Gabriel Mizrahi: couldn't fix that level of background noise. So yeah, I'm kind of in heaven here, actually. I'm meeting some very sweet people, getting some good audiobooks in on the walks up and down this huge hill, hanging in my hammock on the balcony when I want to be alone.

So I decided to stay for another five days, even though every single Uber I have ordered to the hostel cancels on me when they see where the pickup location is. Oh, dang. So I have to go down the hill, up the hill, and if... Usually I'm out of here two times a day, maybe three sometimes. Grab a bike, rent, like, one of those Uber Eta bikes and, like, take it where I want to go, and then I have to come back and do a whole CrossFit workout just to get home.

I'm sweating constantly, but I'm having a good time.

Jordan Harbinger: You can't just give the Uber driver, like, an extra tenner in cash and be like, "Please go all the way up the hill and drop me off"?

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's a favela payment. Pre- pre-favela payment. No, it's, there's no feature on the app for that where you can- No, no. I mean when you're in the car on the way home.

Oh, on the way back they might drop me. Yeah. Maybe. But I can't be picked up here. I have to go down to the bottom of the hill. Great workout [00:14:00] though, huh? Yeah. My quads are on fire today. I literally woke up with shin splints. That's how steep the - Geez ... the hill is here. Yeah. Ol' Gabe favelas. I love it. So if you hear any gunshots in the background today, that's just, uh, that's just the mayor saying hello.

Jordan Harbinger: His reelection campaign song. I don't know. I always kind of im- im- imagine these places like The Purge, but it's obviously not that bad.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Recording live from the city of God.

Jordan Harbinger: All right. Well, let's take a break from your nightmare for a little while and dive into these doozy waters, shall we? Let's do it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Right into Hot Take Lake.

Jordan Harbinger: Grab your floaties, broskies. That didn't quite rhyme. That's fine. Gabe, what's the first thing out of the mailbag?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, guys. You recently talked on Feedback Friday about how you feel like crap after drinking. I'm in therapy. I'm not in the bathroom as much as Jordan, I'm sure, but I stay hydrated and I run daily Still, I'm stuck in a cycle of drinking a fifth a day.

Wow. So to be clear, that's a fifth of a gallon of alcohol?

750 milliliters of alcohol.

Yeah. Wow. That's, 'cause that's the size of a standard wine bottle of what I assume is not [00:15:00] wine. This is hard liquor. That is a lot.

Sounds like it. That is

a lot of alcohol every day. Wowza.

I work full-time, do homework, bathe, and feed the kids.

I'm a semi-professional and pay all my bills.

Jordan Harbinger: And you drink a fifth a day. My God, your alcohol tolerance must be through the roof. That would k- you know, I w- I wouldn't be able to function with this.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Do you have advice for someone stuck in a cycle of drinking because she feels like crap? Do you think some of the supplements you take would help?

Signed, and she came up with this one, "Save your sign-off, Gabe, and just tell me how to behave. I want off the booze cruise. Keep me on the dooze cruise." Cute.

Jordan Harbinger: So wow, we're hearing from a mom who has a job, pays the bills, takes care of the kids, exercises daily, and drinks a fifth a day. That is, that's quite a lifestyle to maintain.

But I also know you would not be drinking, not this much, if you weren't in some kind of pain. You haven't told us what it is, just that you feel like crap, so you drink, which must make you feel even worse, so you drink. It's a vicious cycle so many [00:16:00] people are stuck in. So do I have advice for somebody like you?

I mean, my main advice is recognize you have an addiction. This is not a healthy or sustainable way to manage your life, your mental health. You need to try things in a different way for yourself, for your children, for everyone in your life. Now, I don't know if those words are going to get you there. You have to get there.

But I also think that by writing in, you're taking a step toward acknowledging the problem here. This isn't, you know, "I like to unwind with a couple of glasses of wine every night." That would be a little concerning too, to be honest, but this is next level. A fifth of, I don't know, vodka every day? I mean, do you know what that's doing to your body and your mind, your ability to be effective and responsible and present?

This is a full-blown addiction. I mean, it's quite an extreme one actually, and it's going to have implications for every part of your life, your brain and body for the rest of your life. So you have to be ready to acknowledge that and try things in a new way. But if that helps you see your situation more clearly, that's why I say it.[00:17:00]

So my strong advice is get into some kind of recovery program. 12-step like AA. Refuge Recovery is one of our listeners recently recommended, which is based on, I think, Buddhist principles. They view addiction as a form of suffering caused by craving and attachment. SMART Recovery, which is largely based on cognitive behavioral therapy.

There's just lots of great options out there. And start putting some structure and some community around your sobriety. I would attend a meeting, like, immediately and see what it's all about. Even if you're not, quote-unquote, "ready to stop drinking," I think meeting other sober people, seeing what these spaces are like, what a sober life can offer you, I think that's going to open your eyes to a whole new way of approaching life.

And therapy, of course, if you can swing it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, 100% agree, of course. This is, uh, not a job for a multivitamin, I would say.

Jordan Harbinger: No. A- and the fact that she's asking that, like, "Which supplements can help me with this?" Look, I'm sure she's hoping for an easy fix or a quick way out, and I totally get that. Wouldn't that be nice?

But you are drinking a fifth a day. [00:18:00] Your Kirkland Signature B12 tablet ain't going to cut it, sis.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No. If anything, it's just going to give you more energy to drink and apparently run a 5K before work every day. Geez.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, exactly. Literally. I wouldn't-- Look, I don't want to speculate too much, but I, I worry about how that quick fix mindset might be keeping her stuck in this addiction Maybe she doesn't want to look at the roots of this addiction, why she's turning to alcohol in the first place.

Maybe she doesn't want to experience the difficult feelings that come with acknowledging an addiction. Maybe she's so overwhelmed she can't imagine taking time to attend to yet another part of her life.

Gabriel Mizrahi: She definitely seems to be avoiding something here. Those are all good theories. What is she not

Jordan Harbinger: looking at?

But to state the obvious, it takes real work and real commitment to get sober and take care of yourself. But here's the good news. You sound like a pretty high-functioning person. You're exercising and holding down a job and raising kids while drinking this much. I just imagine what you'd accomplish if you were not drinking and running every day.

Who knows? It might have helped counteract some of the deleterious effects of drinking like this, and I'm pretty sure I- [00:19:00] it sounds to me like that's going to be a huge part of your sobriety as well.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, that's a good point. Also, I'm not sure if you know this, but running is way more fun if you don't have, like, a splitting headache and you're not worried you're going to puke in someone's bushes at any moment.

That sounds so stressful.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, can confirm. Working out, way more fun when you don't have 750 milliliters of poison coursing through your veins while you're on the treadmill. Funny how that works. I cannot imagine working out drunk. I'm sure, uh, that in college I probably did it super hungover or possibly a little bit drunk maybe once, but I, I cannot imagine a thing I would want to do less while inebriated.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You also have another huge asset here, which is your kids. I mean, if you're not getting sober for yourself, then you might want to consider getting sober for them. You know, what kind of mom do they need? What kind of mom do they deserve? It cannot be a mom who, on top of all of her responsibilities, is also self-medicating in this way.

Jordan Harbinger: Of course. Imagine how you'll show up for them without being intoxicated. What a huge shift that would be for all of them. But again, you have to be willing to say, "Okay, this isn't [00:20:00] working. I need help," or at least, "I'm open to trying things in a new way." Incredible things are possible on the other side of that admission.

So my hope for you is that you have the courage and vulnerability to acknowledge the situation you're in and commit to creating a new one. There have never been more resources and people out there ready to help you, and I hope you find them, friend. Good luck. By the way, you can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com.

Please keep your emails concise. Try to use a descriptive subject line. That makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're struggling to get hiring managers to tell you the truth about how you're showing up in interviews, your neighbors are eavesdropping on your therapy sessions through the wall, or you're spinning out because your husband has been hiding his sexual preferences from you while turning to increasingly hurtful adult fare, whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com.

We're here to help, and we keep every email anonymous. And now sit back and guzzle 750 milliliters of top-shelf deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show. Glug, glug, glug. We'll be right back[00:21:00]

This episode is also sponsored in part by BetterHelp. Everybody's got stuff. No matter where you are in life, how successful you look on paper, or how well you think you're holding it all together, challenges come for all of us. And you don't have to just white-knuckle your way through it. BetterHelp is now accepting insurance in many states with average copays around 23 bucks.

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Fill out the questionnaire and check your coverage today at betterhelp.com/jordan. That's [00:22:00] betterhelp.com/jordan. Average copay is based on eligible members. Actual cost and coverage may vary by plan.

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All right, next up. "Dear

Gabriel Mizrahi: Jordan

Jordan Harbinger: and

Gabriel Mizrahi: Gabe, I'm a 47-year-old woman, and several years ago, I met a much younger man at the dog

Jordan Harbinger: park."

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hmm. Letter's

Jordan Harbinger: off to a good start. Dog park is where it's at, man. The- Truly ... the [00:23:00] canine connection is real. That leash lust, though. That leash lust. It sounds so dirty somehow.

Straight out of a terrible romance novel. Totally. 50 Shades of Greyhound. That's- That's right ... the best The dog-related erotica we didn't know we needed. The Saint Bernard smut. "

Gabriel Mizrahi: First, we were acquaintances who harmlessly flirted from time to time. Eventually, he asked for my number, and we started hanging out one-on-one.

I guessed he was maybe 36, but on our second not-exactly-date date, he told me he was 31, making him 15 years younger than me. I immediately wrote him off and decided I might set him up with a younger female friend of mine. And yet we so enjoyed our time together. He would cook Indian food while we laughed and danced in the kitchen to '70s yacht rock, and I kept going back."

How cute is this? So cute. It's been nearly two years and every second of our time together has been magical. Friendship and laughter, tears and support, kindness and family, respect and devotion, the mundane and the stressful all [00:24:00] wrapped up together in our shared embrace. I've gotten quite close with his family nearby as well and he's met mine who are across the country.

We've traveled together and been through a lot of major first tests of a relationship without so much as a hiccup. Everyone from our friends to our colleagues are rooting for us. It truly is the best relationship of my life. We adore each other. He is honestly a catch and a half, plus he's cute as a button and the sex is insert speechless here.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. Incredible. Super happy for you, friend. What a gift. But since this is Feedback Friday- ... I just gotta ask, and

JHS Trailer: then?

Jordan Harbinger: That's a new one though. Brand new. Uh, dude, where's my car? Dude, where's my car? That's right, yeah. When he's ordering the Chinese food and she's like, "And then?"

Gabriel Mizrahi: So now that I've exhausted you with how insufferably cute we are, I'll get to my problem.

Jordan Harbinger: Now we're talking. Tell me how you found out he has a secret family in the Philippines or he's into niche tentacle porn or something like that. We're now talking

Gabriel Mizrahi: about moving in together and I'm wondering if I might be [00:25:00] the asshole here. Mkay. First of all, I can't have children. I never could due to severe endometriosis and diminished ovarian reserve that got diagnosed in my early 30s.

Sorry to hear about that. That's, that's gotta be tough news to receive. My only option for kids has always been an egg donor and a surrogate. It's not age-related, it's just the facts of my reproductive system. I desperately wanted to be a mother when I was younger, but I've had so many heartbreaks and at this point I would likely be decently into my 50s before we were emotionally and financially ready to go the IVF route, and that sounds so exhausting.

He says that he's fine with this, that he used to think he wanted kids, but now that the world has turned in so many ways he doesn't know if it's the right thing to do anymore and he would like to enjoy his life with travel, et cetera. Got it. Okay. Well, that's good news, no? I know he may change his mind, and if he does and we end up parting ways I would honestly wish him well and want to see him have everything he wants out of life, as he would make a fantastic father.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, I gotta say [00:26:00] that that's super sweet. Yeah. That's true love, isn't it? I suppose in a way, yeah. I mean, she wants him to be happy even if it's not with her. These two, man. I like these two. Yeah, it's very touching.

Gabriel Mizrahi: What can I say? I am also a widow. I was married for 13 years to an abusive man who in the end took his own life.

Ooh, intense. Okay. I can't properly express the damage that experience has done to me personally, but I've tried to make some good out of it and I'm active in our local suicide prevention and mental health community. I met my current partner a year after it happened and he has always been wonderfully compassionate about it all.

He's there to listen and does little silent things like squeezing my hand under the table if something related comes up at a dinner party just to let me know he knows and cares. I'm in therapy, so I don't lean too hard on him for my healing, but when I need him, he's always there. But trauma has become a part of my life in a way that I have to manage now, which seems unfair to my current partner.

Jordan Harbinger: Interesting. I, I wonder what exactly seems unfair about it. I mean, it [00:27:00] sounds like he's more than willing to support you through this and you're being thoughtful about how much you lean on him, so I don't, I don't, I don't see. Honestly sounds

Gabriel Mizrahi: pretty legit and high functioning, all things considered.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

But maybe she knows what it feels like to live with this trauma, and then that's overwhelming and she has some feelings about that. I don't know.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That marriage also left me with some financial liabilities that I am still cleaning up. My debt and credit score are not exactly conducive to financial partnership right now, but I'm working on it.

All of our accounts are separate. I have never made him responsible for any of that, and I never would, but he does treat me more often than I can afford to do for him. I used to make quite good money and was the sole financial provider in my marriage. But after the suicide, I just couldn't do the executive thing anymore, so now I have a simple little job that makes half of what my boyfriend makes.

He's quite successful already and so smart and capable. The sky's the limit for him and his career. I'm not used to being taken care of, and in some ways it probably does make the age gap less [00:28:00] apparent. He's not the stereotypical young guy wanting a mommy. In my marriage, my success was always a liability that I got punished for, but my boyfriend is both financially and emotionally secure and mature.

Jordan Harbinger: Again, this all sounds very thoughtful on your part. Also, this guy just gets better and better. What can I say? I'm getting impatient. I want the real d- where's the real horrible part of this?

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm waiting. We're all waiting. And yet I feel guilty that I can't meet him equally in this way right now. Okay. I do get that.

I understand what he sees in me. I'm a cool hang. I adore him and let him know it. I make him laugh, and we are the best of friends. I look young for my age and still get carded often, so we don't look odd together or anything. No one even knows that there's an age gap unless we tell them. Dude, this woman's so

Jordan Harbinger: funny.

I totally get what he likes about me. I mean, I'm awesome and hilarious, et cetera.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm glad the trauma has not done a number on her self-esteem. Well, we'll see. I mean, look, it's very charming. I'm glad she knows she's a catch, too. He can be a bit of a dork sometimes, leans anxious, and [00:29:00] probably suffered from nice guy syndrome with women his own age in college.

So an older woman has always been his most successful bracket, and I'm not the first older woman he has dated. But I've dated such jerks and been through so much that a sweet nerd who worships me is like a warm bath Nerd it up all day, sweet pea. Teach me how to play Dungeons & Dragons, and I'll teach you about punk rock.

Sounds like a great Saturday.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Again, he sounds great. I know you just told us about some of the sticking points, but I'm kinda sitting here like this is Q1. What's going on, Gabe? What's- What's the problem? Yes. What is the problem? You guys are adorable. I'm sick of it. Your puzzle pieces fit together perfectly, apparently in all senses of the term.

Not in a codependent way. It sounds like it's a mature and responsible partnership. I am waiting, we are all waiting patiently for the h- some huge bomb to drop here. Come on.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But I feel like I scored big while he landed an aging, infertile widow with financial problems.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, okay. So there is some self-esteem stuff going on here, or at least some self-consciousness about the differences between you, [00:30:00] which is understandable.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Maybe the kindest thing I can do for love is to let him be free to have a partner who can give him everything that I cannot. But is it wrong to take this young man with all this potential, who would honestly be a wonderful partner to any woman he was with, and saddle him with all my baggage? Signed, A reluctant cradle robber swapping slobber with a great boot snocker.

It's a bit of a shocker, but he's a proper heart-stopper and the opposite of a squatter. But now I'm starting to totter because I can't tell if it's improper to stick with this guy when, among other things, I can't be a mater.

Jordan Harbinger: What a letter. I don't know if I've ever fallen in love this quickly with a Feedback Friday couple.

You guys sound so sweet. Yeah. Very special together. I have a big grin on my face. So a couple of things I want to say here. First, obviously, look, I'm sorry about everything you've been through. Second, I'm sorry you've been left with some difficult stuff. The trauma, of course, the debt, which you're working on, which is excellent.

The reproductive [00:31:00] stuff, which it sounds like you're mostly at peace with not having kids, but I'm sure that was not easy to go through physically, emotionally. And I know that that always brings up big questions. But what a beautiful relationship you found here. You don't need me to tell you that you and this guy have something pretty extraordinary.

It's sweet. It's thoughtful. It's evolved. It's fun. It's meaningful. You're hitting on all the levels. What a gift for both of you. So here's what I'm hearing. You and this guy are amazing together, and you have some differences which are bringing up some big questions. Your age, which honestly doesn't sound like much of a thing except insofar as it relates to life stages and having kids, although you would've had fertility challenges at any age.

So in a way, your age really, it doesn't have anything to do with that For better or for worse. Your, your history with your ex, this trauma, the abuse, his death, it sounds like that did a number on you and it shows up in your relationship now. Although again, I'm not sure how or how much. And when it does, your boyfriend is very supportive.

The financial piece, which is an objective challenge for sure, but one that with the right planning and discipline [00:32:00] I'm confident you could overcome with some time. And then there's your boyfriend, what he wants, what he needs, how he views you, all that. But to me, the real theme of your letter, the real question your relationship is bringing up is what all of this reveals about the way you view yourself, how you partner with somebody, whether you feel secure and deserving of this relationship given your circumstances.

I hate to use language like this because it can be so cheesy, but I think we're talking about how fundamentally lovable you are or rather how lovable you feel. What I'm hearing is that your boyfriend is very much in love with you and very interested in building a life with you, but you have some anxiety and some shame, which, like I said, perfectly understandable about whether these facts of your life fit with his, whether they're truly acceptable.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And whether she's doing something, quote-unquote, "wrong" by taking him at his word that he wants to be with her despite all of that.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. And I think that's where she needs to dig in and get clear on something. She's framing this as, "Is it wrong to saddle this amazing guy with all my baggage?" But based on what she's shared with us, it sounds like he's [00:33:00] very much choosing to accept her baggage and is happy to accept the baggage.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And might not in fact think of it as baggage at all. Right. I mean, baggage might be in the eye of the beholder to some degree.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. So in a way she's kind of inventing this problem, by which I mean the problem is real, it exists, I'm not dismissing that, but I think the intensity of the problem, the way she's tied in knots about it, that seems to be largely coming from her end because of these difficult feelings and conflicts.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. That is exactly the sense that I'm getting, too. I also feel like by framing it this way, she's kinda doing a lot of work on his behalf. She's almost, like, pre-breaking up with herself. She's trying to get out ahead of any risk or unfairness by ending the relationship and allowing him to find somebody who doesn't have these issues.

Like you said, in a way, that's true love. It's very kind. It's very selfless. But in another way, I'm kind of wondering if it's also a covert way to, like, undermine and maybe even give up on herself, to spare herself the distress of loving this guy with this shame and this anxiety, which is getting amplified in their [00:34:00] relationship, and to maybe deny herself this very special relationship under the guise of setting him free.

Jordan Harbinger: I see what you mean. Like, maybe she does love him that much, but also does she need to love herself just as much in order to fully enjoy this relationship?

Gabriel Mizrahi: That is a really nice way to put it. I also feel like by trying to manage her boyfriend's decision here, if only in her head, she's also ... Let me find the words for this.

It's almost like she's not really taking him totally seriously, you know? She's not really listening to him and trusting That his interest in her, his commitment, his support are genuine.

Jordan Harbinger: Right. I think that's also a symptom of not feeling totally deserving of that love. It can literally be impossible to believe if you don't believe it yourself.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And it's going to be kinda hard for us to solve that challenge in 10 or 15 minutes on a podcast. I have to assume that the struggle to accept his love, to maybe feel worthy or feel secure in this relationship, which by the way, I think most human beings struggle with to some degree, it probably goes back a long way and it's probably been informed by this very difficult marriage and so many other life [00:35:00] experiences.

And working through that stuff, finding a new way with herself and her boyfriend is going to be a process. It's going to be her process, which will take place largely in this relationship with her boyfriend, but could also maybe take place with a therapist, friends, other sources, the usual suspects. But I guess what I would invite her to consider is by doing all of this work, getting out ahead of this quote unquote wrong, is she ironically not fully loving him by not taking him at his word, and more importantly, his actions when he says in a variety of ways, "I am here and I am having fun, and I really like you."

Jordan Harbinger: Nailed it, Gabe. But, you know, that might also be an interesting way that her age is peeking out. She might look and feel young, and he might act and seem a little older, but maybe being two or three life phases ahead of him, it makes her feel like she needs to be the grown-up and sort of keep an eye on things, which, you know, maybe that's somewhat appropriate.

The reality is that she has 15 years on him, and so she's probably seen more and felt more and can't help but feel like she needs to protect him and pr- to protect both of them I guess the question I would ask her [00:36:00] is, is that responsibility actually warranted? Where does that responsibility come from?

Is it suddenly popping up in this May-December relationship? Is it informed in any way by her ex's suicide, or does it maybe go back a long way? And is she truly taking care of herself and her boyfriend, or is she creating an obstacle for them that just doesn't need to be there?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Excellent questions.

Those are the right ones for her to answer right now.

Jordan Harbinger: As for the financial piece of all this, I love your thoughtfulness about depending on your boyfriend too much, wanting to be ready for a true partnership, wanting to be responsible. Again, that says so much about you. My general advice there is if this debt and your income are getting in the way of moving forward together, then when the time is right, and that time might be right now or it might be in three months, six months, a year.

I say this knowing you're still healing from a huge loss and dealing with some big stuff. But when the time is right, I would start to create some systems and habits that will allow you to climb out of the debt and take care of yourself financially. So debt management, building relationships that are going to open good doors for you, hopefully ones that compensate you the way [00:37:00] that you want, good financial hygiene, helpful mindsets around wealth, all that stuff.

And I'm, I'm so sorry that your husband left you saddled with these debts. That really sucks. Part of me is kinda angry about that. But I'm also confident that when you're ready, paying off this debt and stepping into a new phase of your career, that might ironically be what you need to reengage with life, with work in a new way.

And if your goal is to be able to partner freely and fairly with your dude in this department, that could actually be a great motivator. It's stressful, but, you know, a great motivator, and it all depends on how you engage with the challenge.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And to be fair, I think the ability to engage with this challenge, to feel maybe more inspired than scared, that might require a lot of energy that is being taken up by this trauma and this anxiety.

So this might be a lot for her to tackle at once, but I think she can do it.

Jordan Harbinger: I hear that. But then struggling financially, man, it also just takes up so many resources. Yeah. There's so much stress and uncertainty around this.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's also a very good point. Maybe the most meaningful thing about the money stuff is that she used to be quite ambitious and successful.

She [00:38:00] took a big step back after her husband's death, presumably because she was overwhelmed and grieving. Although, I don't know, there might be more to that decision. I'm not sure. And now that's bringing up these other feelings. It sounds like some guilt and unease about being taken care of, even though that also interestingly gives her more confidence in her boyfriend that he can do it.

It, it narrows the gap between them.

Jordan Harbinger: I think this is worth double-clicking on for a moment. She says that her ex punished her for being successful. He also apparently abused her, and then he took his own life, okay? So maybe she quit her fancy job because she was traumatized and overwhelmed by everything he put her through, which I can certainly understand.

But maybe all these conflicts around making less money than she used to, having to depend on her younger boyfriend now, I don't know, Gabe. We don't have enough detail here to say for sure, but I feel like her feelings around money and security and success are complicated. It's not just about being able to pick up the check at dinner or whatever.

And that might be another area that she needs to explore, because it's one thing to take time off to heal, but it's another to quit your job because your spouse really did a number on your [00:39:00] relationship with responsibility. I'm, I'm speculating a little bit, but I do wonder what led to her leaving that job behind.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. I'm really glad you dug into that because to your point, there's probably more for her to know about this financial anxiety. This money stuff seems to cut to the core of some really important stuff. Is it okay for me to depend on somebody else for a while? Am I depending on him or am I taking advantage of him?

You know, what does it feel like when I'm not providing financially as much as my partner, as much as I used to? What does the whole experience of being taken care of by somebody feel like? What does it bring up for me? But all of these questions might just be versions of this thing we keep coming back to, which is, do I deserve this?

Am I allowed to love and depend on this guy?

Jordan Harbinger: And so I find myself wanting to say, "Yeah, you deserve this. Yes, you're allowed to take your boyfriend at his word and enjoy this relationship." And if there's a part of you looking for somebody from outside to give you permission to enjoy your life with this guy, then here it is.

But I also know that nobody can really give that to you, that trust, the security, that basic sense of I'm [00:40:00] okay and I deserve to be happy. That's really gotta come from you at the end of the day. And like we said a moment ago, that's probably going to be less of a corner you turn and more of a process, which is, uh, kinda how it should be, and it's probably going to come in stages, and it's going to be the result of working through this trauma and talking about these big feelings and questions with your boyfriend, growing closer with him, understanding him, learning with him, and also continuing to take good care of yourself.

So I hope those words mean something to you, but my real wish is that you discover that feeling for yourself. But in the meantime, my wish for you is that you try to enjoy this relationship as much as possible. You two are clearly drawn to each other. It sounds like there's just so much great stuff here.

Keep an eye on the tendency to create obstacles that don't necessarily need to be there, and try to make them questions more than doubts, if that makes sense. Try to make them conversations rather than decisions. And catch yourself when you might be looking for a way to blow this whole thing up to protect yourself or overly protect your boyfriend.

Make that a question, too. [00:41:00] I'm really happy for you, my friend. Our relationships, they don't happen by accident. We're always looking for something. We're always working something out, for better or for worse. And I think in your case, it's largely for better. So please trust that you are here to learn and grow through this relationship and that you and your boyfriend seem to be doing it quite thoughtfully.

Y'all sound like a great team. I'm very excited to hear how you guys grow together. Sending you and your dude a big hug and wishing you all the best. All right, now we want you to pick up the check for once by supporting the amazing sponsors who make it possible for us to fix your life week after week.

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Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. For the past 15 years, I've been the bill payer of the family. Last year, I took a position [00:45:00] that did not work out, and as a result, I lost my job and filed for bankruptcy. Mm, sorry, friend. That is, that's a tough blow.

Since then, we've been living on a pretty tight budget. I still make more on unemployment than my husband does working at his part-time job. My husband was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder some time ago, and around that time, all of his career instability started.

Jordan Harbinger: Interesting. I feel like we rarely hear about men with BPD, Gabe.

Maybe never.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, much rarer, actually. Is

Jordan Harbinger: that because men don't have it as much, or they, whatever, they don't get it, whatever the right word is?

Gabriel Mizrahi: So apparently not. It's apparently because of diagnostic bias, like who gets labeled with what, and also how men express symptoms and also how they interact with mental health systems that lead to a diagnosis.

Jordan Harbinger: Interesting. So they end up just not getting diagnosed at all or what?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Either not at all or they end up with different diagnoses. 'Cause they present differently. Okay.

Jordan Harbinger: I, I get it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, like they might be more likely to lash out in anger than, say, withdraw in shame. So clinicians can often [00:46:00] miss them as BPD.

Jordan Harbinger: Got it. I also imagine men are less likely to seek out therapy and stuff, and if they do, they might not be like, "I'm so chaotic. I'm so vulnerable,"

Gabriel Mizrahi: right? This is actually a fascinating topic, and it's one of the criticisms of the BPD label and how it gets applied. Some people argue that there's some judgment or even misogyny built into it because the label seems to be applied to women far more than to men.

Even though men wrestle with the same traumas and symptoms a lot of the time, which is kind of a fair point. I could see that. Yeah, super interesting. Anyway, what I've read is that a lot of experts now believe BPD occurs at roughly similar rates in men and women, but it's under-diagnosed in men, under-diagnosed and misdiagnosed.

So she goes on, "My husband had job stability for almost 10 years at Walmart and then had an event at work that led to him being fired. Since this event, he's been moving from job to job. Some of those positions brought in good money, but he was unhappy and left."

Jordan Harbinger: An event at work.

Gabriel Mizrahi: What does that mean?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

I feel like [00:47:00] that's code for he threw a price gun at his manager's head or something. I don't know. Yeah,

Gabriel Mizrahi: he got triggered by feedback in a meeting and had a meltdown, something like

Jordan Harbinger: that. I'm totally speculating, a, a little unfairly probably, but yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Could be anything. Maybe he handled a decision poorly.

Maybe he got heated with his boss in a conversation. Who knows?

Jordan Harbinger: I just find it curious that she's not telling us what it was, and given his diagnosis, I have to wonder. But anyway, carry on. "

Gabriel Mizrahi: I've paid for countless training courses in different careers from locksmith to medical equipment cleaner, and he has not pursued them further.

He then goes on to complain that he's too old to do anything with his life, that there are no good jobs in the great state of Oklahoma, that he's unhappy. I honestly have not been trying too hard to get a job because I secretly hope something will change in him and he will actually want to be a provider.

Wishful thinking, I know. I'm not sure what I can do here. How do I encourage or support him? And how do I stop myself from saying rude things to him about his complaining? Signed, an exhausted [00:48:00] wife trying to bring her other half back to life without twisting the knife when he's prone to a fair bit of strife."

Jordan Harbinger: Oh boy, this is a tough one. Not a lot of meat on the bone here in terms of details, but I think we can fill in some of the gaps. Living with a partner with BPD on top of some other struggles, it sounds like maybe depression or at least some hopelessness or helplessness, plus financial instability and all the feelings that brings up, it's obviously extremely challenging.

So I'm very sorry to hear you're dealing with all this. My heart goes out to you. It really does. So my main thought for you, and it's a bit of a tough pill to swallow, but I think it's important to come to terms with, you alone can't fix your husband You can encourage him. You can support him, yes, and the main way I would do that is by meeting him with love and compassion, curiosity, which I can imagine is probably pretty hard for you a lot of the time given how things have played out.

You're frustrated. You're disappointed. You're stressed for very understandable reasons, so your capacity to empathize with your husband might be a bit thin these days. But a spouse who's struggling, [00:49:00] especially if they're borderline, we talked about this a few weeks back, it can be hard to do sometimes.

But what they need is consistency of connection, not withdrawing, because it's abandonment that the borderline personality fears most, so it can really get in the way of progress. But loving and listening to your husband is compatible with appropriately challenging him, holding him to a higher standard, encouraging him to take care of himself.

So the tough pill is you cannot make him do that. You can play a role in it, but you can't make him do it. It sounds to me like your husband struggles to maintain commitment and excitement about new paths in addition to his other challenges. Maybe that's part of BPD. Maybe that's part of depression.

Maybe that's just kinda how he is. We can't know, but he has to be willing to address those qualities. He has to do the work. We come back to this theme again and again, and we try not to repeat ourselves too much, but this is one of those timeless Feedback Friday ideas. You cannot make anyone do anything they don't want to do.

You can't save anyone. You cannot fix anyone. That's ultimately going [00:50:00] to be an inside job. So encouraging your husband to look into therapy, that's probably the best thing you can do.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. DBT, we've talked about it before. I believe that's currently the gold standard treatment for BPD right now. Might be worth looking into.

Jordan Harbinger: And I know money is tight, so you might be like, "Cool, therapy. Wouldn't that be nice?" But you might be surprised by how many low-cost options are out there. I love recommending this because therapy is so expensive, but if you're creative and resourceful and patient, you'd be amazed by what you can find.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Absolutely, and just to repeat, sliding scale therapy, low-cost therapy, community resources, recent grads who are getting their hours and charging a fraction of what they're going to charge in a few years. There are so many resources out there, and if you guys ever want more info on that, you can email me anytime.

I am happy to share a bunch of resources and ideas that I've collected over the years.

Jordan Harbinger: So therapy is great, but again, you can't go to therapy for him. He might need a gentle nudge or maybe not so gentle nudge to get there, but he's going to have to stick with it and engage and apply what he learns and address his mood and his personality and his beliefs, all that.

He's [00:51:00] also going to have to reengage with his career, take your financial situation seriously, decide how he wants to show up in your marriage, all of that. And again, you guys can and should talk about this. If you can help him, wonderful. You should, but he's going to have to participate in a real way. So I think the question before you is...

Well, the questions are: Does this marriage feel, you name it, fair, high-functioning, safe, happy? Is your husband living up to the needs and expectations you have of your spouse? Do you see him taking steps to get better, or do you see him stagnating and avoiding life? To be clear, those are questions I would keep asking yourself and get very clear with yourself on the answers.

That's your process. You don't need to know the answers right this second, but I would keep checking in with yourself on them in addition to asking yourself what he needs, how you can continue to support him.

Gabriel Mizrahi: For sure. I find her strategy of not looking for a job quite interesting.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. It's a curious tactic.

So she's trying to engineer a situation where the pressure will get to be so high that he just suddenly [00:52:00] goes, "Oh, okay. I need to be the provider."

Gabriel Mizrahi: Right, which she did call wishful thinking.

Jordan Harbinger: So she sort of knows what she's trying to do.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, but also there's a message buried in there, right? The message being, "I need you to get your shit together, and me not looking for a job immediately is my way of telling you that."

Jordan Harbinger: But if that's the case, it's probably because she's not actually saying that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Which makes me wonder if they're not really talking about all of this as directly as they could.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, her other way of communicating this message was to pay for those courses, which in a way I kind of appreciate. She's not just going, "You need to get a job, honey."

She's saying, "Let's come up with something. Locksmithing, here's the course. Medical equipment cleaning, signed you up. Let's make a move, babe." But now that he hasn't capitalized and followed through on them several times, yeah, it does sound like her preferred mode of communication is, "I'm not going to jump in immediately to pick up the slack for us."

Gabriel Mizrahi: Now let's see what you do with that. Exactly.

Jordan Harbinger: It's a little bit of a test, isn't it? But I don't know if that's a bad test, honestly.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, me either, and the test is going to give her some good information about whether he is showing up as much as she is. But what she does with that information, I don't know.

That's up to [00:53:00] her. I'm just appreciating that this test and this larger way of communicating, which is to say maybe not fully communicating all the time, but sending subtle signals while also trying to galvanize him, that's probably part of a dynamic that has developed between them, and I'm not sure that that dynamic is actually helping them move forward anymore.

Just something for her to consider. It might be time to look at the roles that they've fallen into and how they distribute responsibility between the two of them.

Jordan Harbinger: Gabe, I hesitate to tell her that she should stay or that she should leave him. I just don't think we have enough facts.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, same. I'm also a little unclear on the timeline.

It was only last year that she lost her job and filed for bankruptcy, which must have been so stressful. So this stress is relatively new, and it might not last forever. On the other hand, she did say that her husband was diagnosed some time ago, which could mean, I don't know, years ago.

Jordan Harbinger: And he's been floundering in his career ever since.

So part of me is going, do you already have enough information to know whether he's getting better, whether there's a way forward here, whether you can stay happily in this marriage? I [00:54:00] feel like maybe you do, but only you, of course, can know that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: About stopping yourself from saying rude things to him about his complaining, look, I, I understand your frustration completely.

It sounds like it's kinda warranted for a lot of reasons. And like any feeling, your anger contains some really good information about your needs, your standards, where your husband might be failing you or failing himself, how your personal history informs your reactions, also where you might be persisting in a dynamic that doesn't work for you.

This is all up for you to decide. So I'm not really sure that the answer is necessarily to suppress that anger, but it might be good to work with the anger in a way that is most helpful. For example, when the impulse to snap at him comes up, maybe you say, "Man, I am really frustrated. I want you to choose something and commit to it.

I don't know how to support you in this. Can we please figure this out together?" You know, kinda like narrate the feeling rather than just being swept up in the feeling and lashing out at him.

Jordan Harbinger: Generally a good policy, I find.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But also, given that this anger says at least as much about you as it does [00:55:00] about him, when you notice the tendency to be rude to him, that might also be a moment to go, "Okay, whom am I angry with really?

Is it all him? Is it the situation, or is it also partly myself?"

Jordan Harbinger: You're saying, is she mad at herself for sticking around in this marriage?

Gabriel Mizrahi: If it's true that this has been going on for some time, potentially years, then at a certain point, maybe. He might be the source of a lot of their challenges, although she also lost her job.

She also isn't trying to get a new one immediately, so I, I'm not sure it's as simple as that. But even if he's the primary source, over a long enough period of time, she is participating in this, right, just by sticking around or sticking around with the same strategy. So I'm with you, Jordan. I can't say for sure leave, but the fact is that she hasn't left, and she hasn't found a new way.

So I guess my questions are, does she want to change her circumstances? Because she can. Does she want to stay but learn a new way of relating to her husband? Because she can do that, too. Like you said, that's where all of this ultimately becomes about her.

Jordan Harbinger: Well put. I think we need to make [00:56:00] room for two realities here, her reality and his reality.

Of course, both are legit, but also the reality that a person with BPD deserves love, compassion, patience, and that they need to address their trauma and work on things. It's not either/or. So if I were in your shoes, that's the main question I'd be asking. Is my husband genuinely and measurably working on himself, or is he not?

And if he is, then he deserves time and support. My hope is that he takes steps toward getting better and building a new career.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hopefully in a way that does not involve throwing retail paraphernalia at people's heads, but- A

Jordan Harbinger: girl can dream. Doesn't seem like too much to ask. So sit with those questions. I know you'll come to the right answers.

Good luck. Also, in case y'all don't know, there's a subreddit for the show. A lot of discussions about the episodes, especially Feedback Friday, of course. A lot of different takes on there. That's over on the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. All right, now for the recommendation of the week

Lip Filla Clip: I am addicted to lip filler

Gabriel Mizrahi: All right, so this might be one of the most important recommendations of the week that I will ever share, and I'm dead serious about that.

So a lot of you guys [00:57:00] write me asking for good movies and TV shows to watch. I really enjoy sharing those recs. I love getting your recs. There's so much fun stuff out there. I also think we all know that the quality of film and TV has declined massively over the last five to 10 years or so, and there's just a lot of mediocre to very bad stuff out there now.

Or if it's good, it's good, but it's not, like, great. It's not a masterpiece. My recommendation for you this week is a masterpiece. It is a true masterpiece. It's a show called Six Feet Under that ran on HBO from 2001 to 2005. Maybe some of you guys know. A lot of you probably don't. Six Feet Under. Uh, how do I even talk about this show and what it means to me?

So it's a family drama that was created by Alan Ball. That's the guy who wrote American Beauty, and it's about a family that runs a funeral home. And the funeral home is downstairs, and they live upstairs, and every episode is loosely framed around at least one death, the person who comes into the funeral home that week.

But what you're really following is the lives of these [00:58:00] simultaneously very mundane and also absolutely extraordinary people. And you spend five seasons with them, five perfect seasons, and you live with these characters in a way that you have never in your life lived with characters on TV before.

Through their joys, their sorrows, their crises, their wins, their mistakes, their growth at all stages of life in all kinds of ways. I cannot begin to tell you the paces that this show puts you through. It is like watching the greatest play of your life, just, like, brilliantly written, beautifully acted, except the play is five seasons, and it never misses once.

It is perfect from beginning to end. And speaking of the end, the finale of this show is... Anyone who has seen it right now is nodding along so hard right now. I don't have words. The way this show landed the plane and paid everything off and took the audience all the way across the finish line is a masterclass in how to end a story, and it's actually kind of crazy how few shows know how to do that.

So it just [00:59:00] really delivers in every, in every way. I could go on and on about this. The writers on this show, incredible. Alan Ball, Nancy Oliver, Rick Cleveland, Scott Buck, Joey Soloway, just, like, a dream team of writers. The directors, all of them amazing. I think this was the first show or one of the first shows to start hiring really great indie cinema directors to direct episodes, and they just created this really amazing look and feel and mood.

The cast, Michael C. Hall, the guy who later played Dexter, it's his first onscreen role and just knocks it out of the park. Peter Krause, Lauren Ambrose, Frances Conroy, Rachel Griffiths, Justina Machado, Richard Jenkins, like, Ben Foster. The list goes on and on, just some of the greatest actors. And I don't want to say much more.

I'm not going to spoil anything for you. Just know that if you commit to watching this show, you are going to be undone and put back together by this show. It is so rewarding to watch alone. It's also super moving to watch with a friend or a significant other. I can honestly say this [01:00:00] is the only show I have ever seen that made me a better person.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay, this is a crazy rec, a show that's 25 years old, but you're selling it hard too, man. What the heck?

Gabriel Mizrahi: You don't understand. Like, you will be highly entertained by this show because it's dramatic and funny and weird, but it's also like going to life school. It forces you to think and feel about, honestly, all the things that we talk about on the show: death, meaning, happiness, forgiveness, love, freedom.

You will not be the same person after you watch it. I do have one caveat, which is if you watch it, please stick with it for three episodes because the pilot and the first couple episodes are bizarre, a little bizarre. They started off doing this one thing, and then they left that behind, and then around episode three or four, the show clicks in hard and just takes off, and it does not let go until it ends.

So please do not be discouraged by the pilot. I promise you, it is so worth it.

Jordan Harbinger: I feel like all shows need a few episodes and then they find their way, pilots especially.

Gabriel Mizrahi: They usually do, but I feel like people say that when a show is just kinda meh. Uh-huh. And they're [01:01:00] like, "Eh, it's not that good in the beginning, but it gets good."

No, this show is great. It's just that the team was doing something so original, and they were still figuring out exactly what it was in the early days. Anyway, Six Feet Under is, in my opinion, I think a lot of other people's opinion too, the single greatest TV show ever made.

Jordan Harbinger: Damn, quite a statement, Gabe.

And if you hate it, it's Gabe's fault.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's all my fault, and you can write me, and I'll gladly read those emails. I don't say it lightly. You know I have high standards for movies and TV. You know how much I geek out on this stuff.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, this is one of your favorite topics. Whenever you tell me to watch something, it, it usually slaps.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No, I mean, this series is really in a league of its own. I'm not trying to be extra about it. It's just such a gift. If you like our show, then I know you like other people's stories, and you like pondering these big questions, and you want to understand yourself and the world better. You are the audience for this show.

This show is for you. So yeah, with so much appreciation for Alan Ball and his team and with so much love for the show and with so much excitement for all of you get to watch it for the first time, I'm so envious. Six Feet Under, the perfect TV show, streaming on HBO Max for [01:02:00] sure, and sometimes kind of, depending on the time of year, Netflix.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow, I wonder if I need... Man, it's impossible for me to watch a whole TV show. Like, literally, I can't, it can't be done. But I've never heard you talk about anything like this, Gabe. Really cool rec. All right, now it's time for you to get hit in the face with some amazing deals on the fine products and services that support this show.

We'll be right back.

Hey, if you like this episode of Feedback Friday and you find our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do. That is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. They're all searchable and clickable on the website at jordanharbinger.com/deals. And if that doesn't work, a code can't be found, isn't working for you, email us: Jordan@jordanharbinger.com.

Somebody here will dig up that code for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show. Now, for the rest of Feedback Friday. All right, next up.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear handsome boy number one and two.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay, just to be clear, I'm handsome boy number one. Don't get it twisted. I don't want any confusion.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [01:03:00] Yeah, you don't want to get eclipsed by a plain Sinatra over here. Hmm. I'm in my 40s, live in a major European country, and work as an in-house counsel in a larger corporation. I married my high school sweetheart. We've been together for 24 years, married for 12, and we have two kids who are almost teenagers.

Overall, we achieved quite a lot on our own without much help, and we're proud of that.

Jordan Harbinger: Amazing. It sounds like a really full life. Once again.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's going to be a classic. I can already tell. But as I get older, my childhood is starting to catch up with me. I grew up with a clinically diagnosed narcissistic father.

Fun Feedback Friday reference, he's a dentist. And as we all know, that is the profession with the highest rate of narcissists .

Jordan Harbinger: That is hilarious. I completely forgot about that. Gabe, I can't remember. Did that turn out to be a real thing, or was that a, one of those urban legend type things?

Gabriel Mizrahi: I just remembered where this came from.

It was the woman who was married to a dentist who had three affairs, and her therapist was like, "Well, they're the most [01:04:00] narcissistic of all the professionals, so you just need to accept it, and you also need to accept his infidelity." And do you know what? That is the letter that gave birth to the Lydia.

Right. Because her therapist was being such a Lydia. I just remembered that.

Jordan Harbinger: That's right. What a pivotal Feedback Friday episode. Holy smokes. Narcissistic dentists and the OG lid. In one letter.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. I just Googled it. There's no rigorous research on this dentist being narcissist thing. And if there is, dentistry can't be higher than, like, plastic surgeons or, I don't know, professional athletes.

It makes no sense to me. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I agree. No way. You're telling me Dr. Blau at Happy Smiles is more inflated than the starting lineup of the Dallas Cowboys? I don't think so.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think not. The Lydia in chief was the source of this. I think we can safely put this myth to bed. So he goes on. My father made my life difficult at times.

I didn't have it nearly as bad as a lot of other kids growing up with narcissistic parents, mostly because my mom was more, quote-unquote, "normal" than he was. She suffers from [01:05:00] severe ADD, which came with a whole set of different challenges for me. I was the kid who was constantly not being picked up from events, church, friends' houses, and so on Because my mom simply forgot, and my dad didn't care about me at all.

Oh, man, that is so sad. Dude, kids not being picked up by their parents is like a dagger to my heart. I know. It's heartbreaking. I remember there was a kid in my grade in high school whose parents didn't pick him up from a school retreat. I think we went rafting on the Colorado River or something like that for a week, and I can still picture him sitting on the curb with a teacher as the sun went do- ugh, I can't.

It's too sad. It's too sad.

Jordan Harbinger: Brutal. Let's not give our friend even more of a complex, but I'm with you. That is so tragic.

Gabriel Mizrahi: My entire life, my father said that he loved me only once. Not really using the words, though, and I was already in my 20s. Cool. Okay, so he d- didn't actually say that he loved you. Gosh.

You just said you did not want to give him a complex, so what are you doing?

Jordan Harbinger: I know, but this is a crazy thing to say. H- "My dad only said he loved me [01:06:00] once, and it wasn't with words." I mean, it just sounds like a dad who never said, "I love you." It's awful. Oh, my

Gabriel Mizrahi: God. I'm going to cry, dude. This is too sad. Just

Jordan Harbinger: keep moving.

Keep reading. Okay. If you, if you cry, I'm going to cry. Only one of us is allowed to cry at a time.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I won't go into the specifics of what life with him was like. Just imagine constantly walking on eggshells and trying to manipulate all of your surroundings to limit the chance that he gets triggered and goes off on you.

Lip Filla Clip: Oh, man.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The good thing was that my grandparents on my mom's side were very loving, and I spent a lot of time with them away from my chaotic, somewhat neglectful home.

Jordan Harbinger: That's wonderful, man. What a blessing. Yay, grandparents. Oof.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That surely played a big part in me becoming a somewhat functional member of society.

My dad's mother, who was also a dentist, was an even worse narcissist, but we didn't interact much. My

Jordan Harbinger: God. Was Lydia Number One actually right about this? It seems like s- such a strange coincidence, eh?

Gabriel Mizrahi: I feel like dentistry is often a family profession. Like, the parents are dentists, and the kids sometimes follow in their footsteps, and narcissism can run in [01:07:00] families, so that might explain it.

Jordan Harbinger: I guess that makes some sense. I don't know.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Every time my father and I talked, I fell into a pattern of wanting to fix everything around and about him to make my life easier, a task I could never fulfill and which was immensely frustrating to say the least. I finally went no contact with my dad about five years ago, since every interaction with him left me worse than before.

My entire life, I've been afraid of turning out like my dad and therefore tried to better myself wherever I could. I did a ton of soul searching, and self-optimization has been a key part of my life. I even did a psych evaluation with a renowned professor of psychology. The test showed distinct narcissistic tendencies but also that I am self-aware enough to see and counteract them.

He called me a very rare self-aware narcissist. Basically, I double-check every emotion and thought that I have and also think very thoroughly about every interaction with others to make sure that my inner narcissist does not come [01:08:00] out. It can be exhausting at times and can lead to overcompensation But I don't see much of an alternative.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow, this is fascinating. I think this is the first self-aware/somewhat healed diagnosed narcissist we've ever heard from.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So it is possible.

Jordan Harbinger: Theoretically, but yeah, it does sound exhausting. Anyway, good on you, man. I admire the dedication to making sure you're not a terrible person.

Gabriel Mizrahi: From time to time, though, especially when life gets stressful, I slip up and become an asshole, just like my dad was, and I assume still is.

In these moments, it's as if I'm watching him belittle me as a child or scream at my mom, but it's me doing it to my kid or wife. It almost exclusively happens in a family context. I suspect it's because I let my guard down more than in other settings. I am like a moving train in these moments. I see what happens, but I can't stop myself, at least not immediately, and rage takes over.

Rage about never being seen or considered enough. [01:09:00] I guess the typical deep-rooted hurt that every narcissist carries deep inside of them. Afterwards, I say that I'm sorry, explain what happened in my mind, try to find ways to be better in the future, but still, it feels like something is broken inside of me that I can't fully fix.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow, this is very intense. I'm just riveted by this peek behind the narcissistic curtain.

Gabriel Mizrahi: On top of that, I see my dad every time I look into the mirror because I look so much like him, and even if I avoid my reflection, I know that I look like him because I recognize from the inside that my body language is so very similar to his.

The way I smile, move, talk, all is so similar to the person I never wanted to be like. It feels as if I can't escape him, no matter what I do.

Jordan Harbinger: Dang, that's some Darth Vader-ish right there.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Don't get me wrong, I see and appreciate all the work I did in the past, and that I am nowhere near the burden that I could have been.

Actually, most people describe me as a very caring, amicable [01:10:00] person they enjoy being around. I am proud of that.

Jordan Harbinger: Good, man. Good. I'm glad you can make room for both. It is important.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But I still ask myself if it's a mask. I wish there were a way for me to be that person without these slip-ups, and I could really do without the constant battle with an inner demon that is always just beneath the surface, wanting to jump out and antagonize the people I care about the most.

Also, it would be my greatest failure if I passed my struggles on to my kids. Any thoughts or advice for recovering narcissists? Signed, Still trying to outgrow my father's long shadow.

Jordan Harbinger: This is quite a letter. Isn't it? It's

Gabriel Mizrahi: pretty remarkable.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, very heavy stuff, very painful stuff. Also, I gotta say, quite inspiring on the other hand.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I agree. This actually gives me a lot of hope. The fact that he's come this far with the childhood he had and is doing this well is a m- it's a miracle.

Jordan Harbinger: It really is, and it makes me wonder if a lot of narcissistic personalities could make progress if they, you know, actually wanted to. But it's obviously not easy, [01:11:00] and it requires a lot of work, a lot of energy, almost a hypervigilance, which sounds draining, and a lot of self-awareness.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Which narcissists classically don't have much of, so hard.

Jordan Harbinger: Although I do remember Dr. Ramani saying that narcissists, uh, often they behave in front of other people, and that's one of the problems that people who live with them have, is convincing other people that they're a narcissist, 'cause, like, they're totally fine when other people are around.

Which means they can control it. They just often don't want to.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So they can be self-aware, but in service of what?

Jordan Harbinger: Basically just managing their image in front of other people, but this guy's doing it to not be a terrible person and to be a better father. So it's- Right ... yeah. Fascinating.

Lip Filla Clip: So

Jordan Harbinger: the whole self-awareness thing could be an obstacle to getting better for a lot of people, but actually, in a way, that makes me wonder if our friend here really is a clinical narcissist in the way that psychologists diagnosed in the past.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Actually, that guy, and we have no idea who that guy is or how trustworthy he is or how rigorous the test was, but that guy said that he showed distinct [01:12:00] narcissistic tendencies, which I don't know if that's a clinical term or if it's just kind of like a loose catch-all. But that does sound somewhat different from true narcissistic personality disorder as we understand it.

That's a good point.

Jordan Harbinger: So he might act and think like a narcissist in some ways to some degree, but he's not, like, a Dr. Ramani case study.

Gabriel Mizrahi: What he definitely has is a fair amount of trauma from his childhood, and that is clearly hard to heal.

Jordan Harbinger: Clearly, and so that could create a proper personality disorder, or it could just leave some wounds that make him angry and out of control in a more garden variety kind of way, in a way that doesn't have a label per se but maybe overlaps with certain qualities of a narcissist.

But who knows? There's so much nuance here. All that to say, you've made remarkable progress here, my friend, and you deserve a lot of credit for that. A lot. So let's talk about these episodes you have. They sound very intense, very distressing. I'm sure they're very scary and upsetting for your wife and child, and of course, for you.

This is really unfortunate. I know you know that. At the same time, though, the fact that you [01:13:00] apologize afterward, that you can explain what happened, that you try to get better, I'm not totally clear on whether you actually are getting better, but you're trying, and that counts for something, potentially for quite a lot.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That he can reflect and repair, that already makes him very different from his father, doesn't it?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Look, that might still be confusing and hurtful, especially for a young child. You know, sometimes Daddy explodes and gets angry, then later he's super nice and apologizes. I mean, maybe better than having a father like the father he had, but it still creates this Dr.

Jekyll/Mr. Hyde thing that's probably hard to understand.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Emotional whiplash.

Jordan Harbinger: Emotional whiplash. So I really appreciate that he's doing this. I really am. I'm pretty confident that it's doing more good than harm. I'm just appreciating how tricky it must be for his family sometimes. About looking like your dad, though, eh, I understand why that's unsettling.

There's something very powerful about this. "I look like my dad. I can't escape him." But hey, to state the obvious, I hope you already know this, but I'm going to reflect it back to you, that does not mean you are your father or that you are guaranteed to become your dad. That's just how you look, man. [01:14:00] Who you are deep down, the person you've become, the person you still can become, that's largely up to you.

Your father casts a long shadow in your life. I get that. But he doesn't get to determine who you are. And my hunch is that the more you heal from all this, the more you grow, the more your physical resemblance will take on new meanings. Right now, you look in the mirror and you go, "Oh, my God, I'm just like him."

But if you make more progress on these wounds, if you start to show up differently with your family, for example, you might start to look in the mirror and go, "Wow, I look so much like him. Look how different I am. I get to decide." So you're bringing a lot of meaning to this resemblance thing, and I guess I would just invite you to either put that down as much as possible or stay open to new meanings as you get better.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So should we talk about what those new meanings look like? Like, what does getting better look like?

Jordan Harbinger: Sure. Let's. Look, obviously, I want this guy to get into therapy ASAP. I'm assuming he's not there, 'cause I think he would've mentioned that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. What I find interesting about that is he's obviously made a ton of progress over the years, [01:15:00] which, as you said, is remarkable, presumably without any therapy, which is even more impressive, aside from the professor who diagnosed him, I guess.

But I also wonder why he's not in therapy. Like, why has he chosen to tackle this painful and complicated stuff on his own? Is that self-sufficiency part of the wound? You know, why has he not availed himself of the help that's out there if this is really causing so much pain in his family? But what's also interesting to me about that is I, I wonder if he thinks about a lot of this stuff as fixed, almost fated.

You know? Like, "My father was a narcissist, and it left these non-negotiable marks on me This famous professor diagnosed me with narcissistic tendencies, and that's just how it is. Or I look in the mirror and there he is. I'm my father's son, and I always will be.

Jordan Harbinger: Like he said, it feels as if I can't escape him no matter what I do.

Sounds pretty fixed and fated to me.

Gabriel Mizrahi: To be clear, I do hear a lot of growth in his letter, a lot of flexibility, so I'm not glossing over any of that. But I also wonder if the legacy of this childhood in conjunction [01:16:00] perhaps with his personality, his culture, his circumstances, maybe even his gender, if all of that makes him feel like he can only get so much better.

You know, he can be self-aware and interrogate every single thought, but he'll always have these episodes or he'll always have this conditioning. And so maybe it's not worth working on this in therapy, which by definition means believing that we are not fated to play out these cycles again and again, that we can evolve.

It's interesting, I was just listening to a talk by Dr. James Hollis. I was actually listening to it on this huge hill that I have to walk up and down four times a day, and, uh, this is the Jungian analyst that I recommended a while back. And he shared this thing that really struck me. He talked about the difference between fate and destiny, and he said that fate is what happens to us, right?

The givens of life, genetics, family of origin, culture, the moment you're born into, the home you grew up in. All of these things are obviously very formative. But destiny is that which is seeking to be expressed

Jordan Harbinger: through you. That which is seeking to be expressed through you.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [01:17:00] Yes. So love, hard work, discipline, values, creativity, growth, all of that, the stuff we get to decide to cultivate and put out into the world.

And in between fate and destiny, he says there is the human being making choices. So a person is the product of their fate for sure, but they are also the vehicle of that destiny.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's a nice distinction. So our friend's fate was to have this father or this mother, to experience this trauma, to be loved by these awesome grandparents, all of that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, all of that. But his destiny, as he's already finding, could be to heal from this childhood, to work to be different from his father, to interrogate his feelings, to show up differently with his own family most of the time, plus all the other growth he's going to do in his life, all of which is already underway.

So I just share that as another way to think about which parts of our stories are truly fixed and which ones we get to direct.

Jordan Harbinger: For sure, and really digging into this stuff ideally with a great clinician, that would be a huge step out of his fate and into his destiny. W- we've talked a lot, I know. Yes. [01:18:00] But I also just want to touch on this other thing he said, how most people describe me as a very caring, amicable person.

They enjoy being around me. I'm proud of that, but I still ask myself if it's a mask.

Gabriel Mizrahi: If it's a mask, yeah, that was fascinating.

Jordan Harbinger: I'm not getting that sense from his letter, to be honest. Are you?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Not really. I'm not sure we know him well enough to say for sure, for sure, but what I'm hearing is that he's caring and friendly and fun to be around.

People are literally telling him this, right? Presumably they don't have a reason to gas him up for no reason. And I'm also hearing that this trauma can cause him to fly into a rage sometimes. Both are real parts of him, but how he goes from that to believing that the good parts are just kind of a cover for the bad parts, there's a lot to know about that.

Jordan Harbinger: So that's what I'm curious about. It's almost like he can't fully own his positive qualities because he's so concerned about his negative ones, so anything positive about him is just automatically suspect.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, he hasn't totally integrated these two parts into one person. At best, it's like I'm just performing the role of a positive person because the negative one is the [01:19:00] realer one.

Jordan Harbinger: And he learns to integrate that how?

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's a big project. I do think that's one of the huge opportunities of therapy. A lot of that can only happen when you process this kind of pain with a professional and talk about identity and self and who am I and how do I see myself and all of that. But he could also do some of this work on his own with his friends, maybe with the help of certain books.

Again, you can email me. I'd be happy to share some names. Carl Jung wrote a lot about this, Robert Johnson, Richard Schwartz, um, Heinz Kohut. These are all amazing writers who have written about this topic, so we can talk more about that offline, but really, I do think therapy is where he needs to be.

Jordan Harbinger: I have to assume that feeling like his good parts are just a mask for his bad parts, that's part of the trauma in some way.

It's gotta be.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's hard to put a finger on exactly what's going on with him, but my sense is that he struggles to meet all of these parts of himself with equal compassion. You know, he might move between believing he's all good or all bad, or he'll overly identify with being bad even when he exhibits all of this good instead of going, "Well, they're both me, and also [01:20:00] I get to choose which qualities I want to keep developing and lead with."

Jordan Harbinger: I have to assume that that's a way of staving off shame, including interestingly the shame of fully owning that he's actually a pretty great guy in all these different ways.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Fascinating point. Yeah, it's not just shame about the bad parts, is it? It can be shame about the good parts.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it might also be the anxiety of conflicting self-images, like who am I really?

Which one of these modes is real? Which one is actually me?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Which if you had a mother and a father who hurt you, neglected you in all these ways, and he didn't even tell us what his father did to him specifically, which somehow makes it even harder to hear about, says a lot, I could see why it would be so hard to integrate all the parts of yourself.

I assume a child with these parents would learn to cut off certain qualities in order to just survive this childhood. And actually, didn't he literally say that? I mean, that's kind of what walking on eggshells is.

Jordan Harbinger: 100%. And I think it's fair to say that he never had the kind of love from his parents that allowed for all of him to come to the table, just parts of him.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Ultimately, yeah, must be. And my heart goes out to him for that, but it doesn't mean that he [01:21:00] has to live with these feelings forever. Again, he can change. He has changed dramatically. But I do think he's going to have to open himself up to some new sources of help and start talking with somebody good about some pretty old and pretty intense stuff.

Jordan Harbinger: Totally agree, which can also be quite hard for somebody who's been hurt pretty badly. But I have a lot of confidence in him. Look how far he's come. And honestly, even if he doesn't want to change, I think he has a responsibility to change for his wife, for his child. Interesting theme today, he has to learn to process this pain somewhere other than his family.

In some mysterious way, he's working out some very old trauma through them, and that's, you know, not fair. So I would seriously look into these sources of help so you can metabolize this anger and hurt in a more intentional way and learn some more helpful ways to respond to your family when you get triggered so this pain doesn't hijack you at the dinner table at home.

Fascinating letter, my friend. Thank you for sharing so much with us. Be courageous, be conscientious, meet yourself with both kindness and higher standards, and I know you'll find the [01:22:00] progress you're looking for. Sending you, your wife, and your kid a big hug and wishing you all the best. Go back and check out this week's episodes if you haven't heard them yet.

Simone Stolzoff on uncertainty, Eric Zimmer on big changes over time, and our Skeptical Sunday on matriarchy. All great listens if you haven't heard them yet. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people I know, like, and trust. I've done this pitch a zillion times.

Dig the well before you get thirsty, folks. Build relationships before you need them. You can find the course for free, no shenanigans, at sixminutenetworking.com. Show notes and transcripts on the website. Advertisers, discounts, ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com/deals. I'm @JordanHarbinger on Twitter and Instagram.

You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's on Insta @GabrielMizrahi. This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tadas Sidlauskas, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Consult a qualified professional before implementing anything you hear on the show.[01:23:00]

Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please do share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.

You probably don't picture drug cartel operations running through rural America, but that's exactly why they're so hard to stop. Mariana Van Zeller breaks down how these networks hide in plain sight using everyday systems and small town blind spots to stay one step ahead.

JHS Trailer: I've been covering the cartel for many years now, and I sort of wanted to do a story about cartel presence in the US, and once we started researching it, I realized that actually the story should be about all the things that we don't know about cartel presence in the US, including the fact that they're in small town America.

So one of our first shoots for that episode was in Georgia, and we started with a murder investigation of this woman who was tortured, and they cut off her fingers and then eventually killed her, and she was [01:24:00] killed by the cartel, and it was in the middle of nowhere in Georgia. And then we followed the investigation and yeah, realized that they're everywhere and particularly like to operate in small town America.

Less law enforcement, easier to hide the drugs and to have their distribution networks. You know what was so interesting about that story is that in order to get access to the cartel in the US, we actually had to go down to Mexico and gain permission and have them say yes. Because a lot of these groups have people that work for them in the US, obviously the US is the end goal is where they're sending their drugs.

And so eventually he said, "Okay, we've got you," and it was all set up and we were supposed to meet them in Minnesota. We get there, and then we waited and waited and waited for days, and the guy never showed up. I want people to see many of these traffickers, again, do-- we do not condone what they do. It's difficult to even empathize, but the majority of the people that I talk to are people just like you and me that don't have the opportunities or the luck that we have.

I try to always do my job as a journalist, which is to hold people accountable.

Jordan Harbinger: If you want to hear how cartels hide in [01:25:00] plain sight, check out episode 1302 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.