1353: Text Meant for Another Outs Married Brother | Feedback Friday

1353: Text Meant for Another Outs Married Brother | Feedback Friday

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Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the yerba mate helping me give you that crashless Friday buzz week after week, Gabriel Mizrahi On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks: money laundering experts, gold smugglers, astronauts, investigative journalists. This week we had Joanna Stern, author of I Am Not a Robot. Joanna used AI and automation for everything in her life for a year: AI lawnmowers, AI therapists, an AI boyfriend, even though she's married.

Whatever, don't ask too many questions, and more. A fun dive into what is useful, the future of robotics, and why having everything automated might not actually be what most of us really want. We also had a Skeptical Sunday last Sunday on alcohol. On Fridays, though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, and [00:01:00] compare Gabe and I to various obscure caffeinated beverages.

Gabe, as you know, I am leaving for China tomorrow.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. I cannot wait to record Feedback Friday while you're there. This should be cool.

Jordan Harbinger: I think it'll be kind of fun. I'm bringing a mic with me because I don't want to have to find a recording studio in random cities in China. So I was packing... Actually, that's a lie.

I still have to pack, but whatever. I was getting ready and practicing Chinese with the kids this week, and all of the sudden I remembered something that I'd completely forgotten about, which is when I was 17 I went to Canada, and while I was there I met some Indian women at this bar. And this is going to show you how sheltered and unaware I was living in Michigan up to that point.

I asked, I was like, "So are you guys mixed?" Because I thought they were half Black, because I'd never, I realize now, I'd never met an Indian person before. Isn't that funny?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Wow. That's so funny.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Like I just, just couldn't compute. I saw light brown skin and I was like, "Oh, they must be mixed race," not like, "Oh, they're f- must be from a totally different part of the world-"

where I haven't actually s- seen people yet."

Gabriel Mizrahi: And now look at you. You're speaking Mandarin with your kids. You're spending a month in [00:02:00] China. Wild.

Jordan Harbinger: It is honestly wild because I never in a million years would have pictured this when I was a kid. I mean, growing up in Michigan you pretty much think about your state and not very far outside it.

So I told that to Jen and she's like, "Yeah, I guess you've come a long way in being cultured." And then she start- now she points out all the food th- that I eat and she's like, "Would you have eaten this when you were 20?" And it's, it, the answer's always no. It's like a snail or a sea cucumber or something that I didn't know was edible until 10 years ago or five years ago, and it's spicy.

So strange. It's so funny. She, she's like, "When I met you, you thought all ramen was instant noodles." because that's what I thought. I thought ramen- ... was that instant noodle brick that you threw in the pot when your mom was like, "I'm going to be late from work" and you're like, "Oh, God. Not again." And ac- so I thought that was ra- what ramen was, and I remember when my brother-in-law and her were like, "Let's go eat ramen," I was like, "You guys are so crazy.

Why would you go to a restaurant and order that food?" "That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my life." Now, the other day I was eating something called thousand-year-old eggs. Do you know what these are?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Are these the black eggs that you can [00:03:00] find

Jordan Harbinger: in Asia? They're black eggs that are partially clear, and the inside is like a dark, w- weird greenish yolk that looks like-

Gabriel Mizrahi: Are they actually a thousand years old?

No.

Jordan Harbinger: No, of course not. No. They're just- I don't know the traditional way you make them. I have a feeling you put them in vinegar and some sort of other stuff in a pot and then you bury the pot in the backyard. Now obviously they just take eggs and put some sort of chemical thing around them and make them in a factory I assume.

But yeah, I'm eating thousand-year-old eggs. I eat wood ear mushrooms which is kind of what it sounds like. It's a little mushroom that grows on the side of a tree and looks like an ear. And speaking and reading Mandarin. So weird. So she pointed all that out and I was like, "Yeah, I don't even recognize myself anymore."

Gabriel Mizrahi: You finally broke out of the Cup O' Noodles verse. Mm-hmm. Congratulations. That's quite a character arc on your part.

Jordan Harbinger: It is w- food-wise. Yeah. It's amazing what travel will do to you, huh? Just thought that was so funny and weird. My parents are still kind of like that, right? They're like, "We're easy. We eat anything."

And we're like, "Here's some Thai food." And they're like, "Ugh, what the heck is this? Noodles that aren't spaghetti? I don't know about that." You know? It's just totally outside their wheelhouse is what they recognize as [00:04:00] food. Back then I literally didn't know about the most populated country on earth So I mean, uh, well, second-most populated country on earth at the time I guess.

To

Gabriel Mizrahi: be fair, yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Crazy how much you can expand in, uh, a couple of decades or even a few short years if you're really focused on it. So yeah, I'm stoked about China. I am a little anxious about leaving my house for a month though af- you know, after the break-in we had last year I was like, "Oh no." But I did Airbnb one of the bedrooms to two Navy SEALs that are, you know, armed I assume and probably fairly large, scary, and they have a bloodlust.

So they'll be hanging out at the house.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Do you want to say it louder for all the burglars who are listening to the show?

Jordan Harbinger: That's right. Yes. And they're going to get along great with my parents who are actually going to be living here too.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Bev, Don, and the two Navy SEALs .

Jordan Harbinger: That's right.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Best show ever.

Jordan Harbinger: They're at their best over shared meals.

Maybe they'll go for a waddle down the block with my dad.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Just no Thai food, huh?

Jordan Harbinger: No Thai food. No way. All right. We got fun ones. We got doozies. What's the first thing out of the mailbag? "

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi Jordan and Gabe. My 71-year-old [00:05:00] married brother has always complained about the cold weather but his wife won't travel.

So this last year he left alone for nine months and stayed in the Southwest while exploring the area. He and his wife haven't seemed very close for quite a while and my sister and I kept wondering if this was the end of their marriage."

Jordan Harbinger: Dang, that's a bold move. "Hey, it's a little bit cold. I'm sorta sick of it.

I'm going to go hang out with some cacti. See you in the next election cycle."

Gabriel Mizrahi: Bro's going to cite irreconcilable temperature differences on their divorce petition.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, literally. She wouldn't sign up for Delta Sky Miles, so here we are. "

Gabriel Mizrahi: Right after he came home we made plans to visit him. I sent my brother a text stating how I was anxious to see him again.

The response was quite shocking and confusing. It was X-rated and clearly meant for a man."

Jordan Harbinger: Whoa.

Lip Filla Clip: Daddy chill.

Gabriel Mizrahi: A few minutes later, he sent me another message asking me to ignore the last text.

Jordan Harbinger: How did that [00:06:00] play out? "Hey, I'm looking forward to seeing you on Thursday. Bend that tight ass over, cowboy." "Oh, you know what?

Disregard. Thursday, that Thursday's great. Thursday's great."

Gabriel Mizrahi: Thursday's perfect.

Jordan Harbinger: He must have been mortified.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, poor guy. I guess he hasn't learned about undo send, huh?

Jordan Harbinger: No. Uh, and also you have to do that within, like, two minutes. Plus maybe one of them's an Android user. I don't know.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oof. Yeah. But they have undo send too, don't they?

Jordan Harbinger: I think both parties need to have RCS enabled. I don't know. Someone else will email us- Oh, yeah ... and correct us there, but something like that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Rich Communication Services, which I still don't fully understand.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I don't know. The only thing rich about this text was the tasty smut he was sending to a guy-

he met at the Flaming Saddle in Scottsdale.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Uh, I guess we know what he's getting up to out there in the Southwest now. He's definitely exploring the area.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, yeah. But we already said he was getting to know the local cacti- ... so there you go.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So she goes on, "Meanwhile, he's planning to head off on another trip only two months after he arrived home.

His wife is still working, [00:07:00] and I'm pretty sure she's paying for some of his travel and covering his health insurance. She isn't sure she can afford to retire."

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, interesting. "

Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't care what lifestyle he chooses, but I am disappointed in how he's treating his wife. And now I'm stuck with the secret and dread getting together with my sister, brother, or sister-in-law.

Should I just pretend I never received that text and move on? Should I speak to him about it? Maybe my sister-in-law knows, but they decided not to get divorced. Should I tell my sister?" Signed, Full of Suspicion and Wondering if I Have Permission to Share a Major Admission After Receiving This Explicit Transmission.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, man, what a zany miscommunication this is. Well, let me start by saying I'm sorry that your brother accidentally sent you this text. I'm sorry for the stressful position it's put you in. You're sitting on some crucial information that other people you care about don't have, and that is an awful feeling.

A- and if you're spinning out about it, I'm sure your brother is spinning out even more. This is his life, and if you were to go [00:08:00] and tell his wife before he does, I assume that's going to be very messy for him, potentially quite disastrous actually, because if you're married to a gay guy, maybe you suspect they're gay.

I don't know.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's actually what confuses me about all this. You think he would go to his sister, like, "Yeah, so I assume you saw the text. I'm really sorry about that. I've got to ask you to keep that between us for now. Like, I haven't told her yet."

Jordan Harbinger: Right. Instead, he's just praying she'll play along like she didn't just see that or she'll believe that there's some other reasonable explanation for that.

I don't know.

Gabriel Mizrahi: He just happened to copy-paste an excerpt from Heated Rivalry into their chat?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, happens to straight guys all the time. Everyone knows that. Constantly. So yeah, I, I'm sorry about that. I understand why it's stressing you out. I don't want to ask what Heated Rivalry is. I'm just going to let it sit.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You- I love that you don't know what Heated Rivalry is.

Jordan Harbinger: No. It sounds like something I don't want you to explain on the show. I'm not sure.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'll let you Google it later.

Jordan Harbinger: Brokeback Mountain sequel?

Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, it's basically the Brokeback Mountain for this generation.

Jordan Harbinger: I see.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But the funny thing about it is that [00:09:00] three-quarters of the audience is women, but it's about two gay guys who play hockey Huge hit, dude Yeah.

Wow,

Jordan Harbinger: okay

Gabriel Mizrahi: You should know about this

Jordan Harbinger: Well, I do

Gabriel Mizrahi: know I tried to watch it. I have thoughts

Jordan Harbinger: I do know. So at the same time, this is his life, right? It's his personal life. He's obviously in the process of figuring out some big things, his marriage, his orientation, how to share all that with his family. 71, so I have a little bit of s- can't be easy.

Even though these trips away are potentially, they're a little sus and might possibly be taking advantage of his wife to some degree emotionally, financially, I also think he deserves privacy to work this out in his own way

Gabriel Mizrahi: We also don't know what his wife knows or doesn't know. They might have already discussed it

Jordan Harbinger: Who knows?

It could be w- what is it called? A lavender marriage where- That's

Gabriel Mizrahi: where a gay person marries a straight person. Like, both people know, right?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, so it's a marriage of convenience basically, and they're free to do what they want, but they do that so that people aren't like, "Hey, why aren't you married?

You're a 46-year-old man. What's the deal?" Or like, "You're a 46-year-old woman. What's the deal?" It's like, "Oh, I'm married to this guy, and we just couldn't conceive," and meanwhile one [00:10:00] or both of them are gay, and it's just sort of that's the big secret

Gabriel Mizrahi: But if she doesn't know her husband's gay and our friend goes and tells her, I mean, I guess that might ultimately be kind to her, but how is that going to play out?

Jordan Harbinger: Also messy because sister-in-law might ultimately be like, "Oh my God, thank you for telling me Although I assume it'll be quite a shock, but I'm guessing brother's not going to be too happy about that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's an interesting question whom she should have loyalty to in this situation.

Jordan Harbinger: I know. I mean, you could argue it's to her brother over her sister-in-law because they're blood, uh, or you could argue it's to the sister-in-law because she might be in the dark and that's really unfair.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Or you could argue it's to neither of them. It's just none of her business.

Jordan Harbinger: Which is why I'm feeling like there's a middle way here. Rather than just pretend you never saw the text or confront your brother directly, what if you went to him like, "Hey, I can see that you're going through a major transition right now.

You went to the Southwest alone this year. You're planning to go on another big trip alone. I'm not trying to be all up in your business, but I get the sense that you and Anne are on different paths. You seem to have separate lives in a lot of ways, and I [00:11:00] just want to check in and see how you guys are doing.

And if you want to talk about anything openly, confidentially, I'm here for that."

Gabriel Mizrahi: Nice. Just open the door.

Jordan Harbinger: Just open the door. If he steps through it, then you can listen and talk and share thoughts, because maybe he's like, "How do I bring up this text? I mean, do I just ignore it?" And maybe he's losing sleep over that, so this could help with that.

And when the time is right, you could tell him that you did in fact see that text, and it's okay, and you love and accept him no matter what. But, like, does his wife know? And if she does, great. That resolves your problem. It's none of your business, and you can move on with your life. And if she doesn't, that's another conversation, which is are you going to tell her, and when are you going to tell her?

Do you need help planning for that conversation? And I don't mean you, I mean your brother, right? Just to be clear. And you could say something like, "And you know, sorry to make this about me, but this puts me in a tough spot because I also care about Anne, and I'm not sure it's fair for her to be married to somebody living a secret life.

And I feel like I'm keeping something really important from her, and that's not comfortable for me." But I, I wouldn't necessarily jump straight to that, as tempting as it is. [00:12:00] I would really try to engage your brother first and show him that he's safe to talk to you, and gather some more information a- that'll tell you a lot, and then decide what to do about the text.

I, I... Gabriel, I don't know. Would you have a different opinion? First of all, what do you think of that? And two, would you have a different opinion if this was, like, a 30-year-old guy who was married to a woman instead of a 71-year-old man who's married to a woman?

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm not sure it would change much for me, although I think the fact that he's 71 actually does probably say something about where he is in his life- Yeah

and where he is with his orientation, which is interesting. I like your approach a lot. I think that's, that's more or less what I would do. I think she just has to open a dialogue with him and see where it goes, because it could go well, and then this could get resolved. The thing is though, if her brother doesn't want to talk to her about any of this or if he's like, "I have no plan to tell her, maybe I never will," then what does she do?

Jordan Harbinger: Oof, yeah. Right. Is she supposed to just sit on this secret forever?

Gabriel Mizrahi: I honestly do not know. But like you said, as hard as this is for her, it's tough. I don't know what is and isn't her business, but you could argue that this is just not her business.

Jordan Harbinger: Agree, I know. But then she can't [00:13:00] unsee what she saw. He accidentally kind of made it her business when he sent that text propositioning somebody or whatever it was.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So she might have to compartmentalize this fact, knowing that this is ultimately between her brother and his wife, as hard as it is.

Jordan Harbinger: She might. I suppose it depends on her relationship with the sister-in-law. Are they super tight?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Good point.

Jordan Harbinger: Do they have a deep friendship apart from her brother? And if so, that kind of changes things too, I think.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Actually, I'm glad you brought that up, because that's another thing she could do. She could go to Anne and ask her how she's doing with all of this change, and if she has some confidence that Anne would be honest with her, then she'll probably be able to tell if her sister-in-law knows about her husband.

Jordan Harbinger: kind of like, "Hey, you know, he's gone so much. What is he doing?" And if she's like, "Oh, I assume he's banging dudes because he's gay." Then you're like, "Oh, yeah, that makes sense." You know? But if she's like, "Oh, you know, he collects rocks and he spends a lot of time alone and he plays bridge," it's like, "Is that all he's doing, you think?"

Gabriel Mizrahi: He's always wanted to do road trips. He loves the Winnebago.

Jordan Harbinger: Right.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Then she's probably in the [00:14:00] dark.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. And like, does he go with any friends, like any other guys? Right. You know, you could sort of like-

Gabriel Mizrahi: He FaceTimes me alone from the back of the RV all the time. Yeah. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Uh, anyway, I don't know if that means she should tell her if she doesn't already know, but if she does know and Anne tells her, then you can at least chill.

You can relax.

Gabriel Mizrahi: She can also remind her brother if they get to this point in their chats, "Hey, I just want to remind you that I am still keeping this secret and it's really tough, and I just want to go on record as saying that the right thing to do is to tell your wife."

Jordan Harbinger: I think that's probably the right policy.

She could encourage him without outing him. I can also imagine some people going, it's not her place to tell her brother how and when to come out of the closet ever.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. I hear that. I'm not saying she has to make him. But she can remind him that this is affecting her too because of his mistake, and that she's there to support him in acknowledging the truth when he's ready.

Jordan Harbinger: And then, yeah, it's up to him to decide what to do with that. I think that's fair. But one thing he might decide to do with that is absolutely nothing.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

Jordan Harbinger: And then you're going to have to decide how to work with that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: About telling your sister, I don't know. I'm torn about that.

Jordan Harbinger: I am too. I don't [00:15:00] know. Do you need to add more people to the mix?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Again, it's not really your secret to share. If this is just about, you know, gossiping basically, I would say hold off and make sure that there's a good reason to talk to your sister about this On the other hand, if you and your sister are super close and you trust her and you really need another family member to talk to and advise you, I don't know, is that fair game?

My fear about this is that you're just going to put your sister in the stressful position that you're in, and then she's going to feel guilty about keeping it from Anne as well. And so how is that fair?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Well, misery loves company. But you know, Gabe, the more we talk about this, the more I'm realizing it's kind of messed up for their brother to just pretend this text never happened.

He's avoiding this conversation and implicitly asking our friend to participate in this charade because he's ashamed.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Which to be fair, like we keep saying, I do kind of feel for the guy. He wouldn't be doing this if he weren't freaking out.

Jordan Harbinger: I agree. I do, too. The guy's 71 years old. He's either been in the closet for a long time or he's just recently gotten in touch with his orientation.

I don't really know how all that works, but either way, that [00:16:00] must speak to how hard it is for him to own this part of his identity. So I, I really do have empathy for him. It cannot be easy. But he made a mistake and he sent his sister that message, and for him not to recognize that that puts her in a really tough spot is also unfair.

So whether he realizes it or not, he's essentially saying that his freedom and privacy are more important than her peace and relationship with his wife.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Damn, that's a good summary. Making some good points.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Again, I understand why he's doing that, and I also think it's messed up, and I think that might be something that she shares with him at some point soon.

Gabriel Mizrahi: There's also a part of me that wonders if this was truly an accident, but I would only be speculating.

Jordan Harbinger: I mean, I don't know. I don't know if I'd do it with a triple X text to my sister , you know?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Impossible to know. Sometimes mistakes are just mistakes, but sometimes they're more than that, you know? Did he want to come out?

Jordan Harbinger: I guess it's possible. The unconscious is a funny thing. You know, like maybe when you're drunk, you do something that you would never do when you're sober. The unconscious can kind of out you sometimes. [00:17:00] I guess we'll never know for sure. What I do know is it's time for you and your brother to talk and see where that goes.

You might find the answers and even relief that you're looking for soon enough. But I'm sorry that things played out this way. I hope you can be free of this soon, and I hope your brother finds the courage to be himself and communicate openly as soon as possible. Good luck. You know what makes a great Christmas gift for the boy toy your 71-year-old brother picked up on Grindr?

One of the fabulous products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by ConciergeMD. I've gotten way more interested in preventative health as I've gotten older because, look, I don't want to wait until something is seriously wrong before paying attention to it.

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This episode is also sponsored in part by BetterHelp. We have come a long way when it comes to talking about mental health. People are more willing to discuss stress, burnout, anxiety, and the challenges that they're dealing with. But what's interesting is that even though we talk about it more, actually reaching out for support can still feel like a hurdle.

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Gabriel Mizrahi: Thank you so much for listening. Your support of our sponsors does keep us going. All the deals and discounts

Jordan Harbinger: are searchable and clickable right on the website at jordanharbinger.com/deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday Okay, next up

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe.

I work at a design and build [00:20:00] construction company in the same town where I've lived for the last 20-plus years. I had my own construction company until three years ago when I got divorced and had some shoulder issues that prohibited me from swinging the hammer.

Jordan Harbinger: Why does that sound like a euphemism after that cu- the previous question?

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm 80% sure that's a line from Heated Rivalry, but don't quote me. I contacted an old colleague who had recently purchased this construction company, and he hired me as a project coordinator immediately. The foreman there, let's call him Steve, started about one year before me as a carpenter and rose up to foreman despite only having a handful of years as a carpenter.

One of the veteran carpenters who I know is capable of running the crew was overlooked by my boss, John, for reasons that I don't fully understand. John told me that the veteran and Steve don't work well together, that they're like oil and water. He has told me on several occasions that the guys won't work with veteran carpenter, although I now believe that's coming from Steve, not from the crew.

Three years [00:21:00] later, and now Foreman Steve and I are like oil and water, too. The reason is that Steve is an absentee foreman. He shows up in the morning to get the crew started and then goes back to the office or out doing the things that I was hired to do. No discussion with me, no, "Hey, I'm going to go take care of this," no, "Hey, what are the plans for the project?"

He just assumed the portions of my job that he wants while I'm dealing with the messes and jobs he doesn't get involved in. He's also a total dick. I believe he intentionally steps on my toes. As far as I'm concerned, the foreman should be on the job site leading the crew, and that is what our crew needs because they're relatively young.

Steve, who lacks experience, should not be leading the crew. But he wants to call the shots, even though he's not capable of discussing a situation with someone who has more experience than him, and it shows. The feedback that I get from the crew when Steve is not around is always negative. I've bitten my tongue on a few occasions when I was going to unload about Steve to my [00:22:00] boss but didn't.

I didn't want it to be viewed as a personal issue from me. I want to remain professional, and I understand that there's always that guy at the office who you need to learn to work with. My therapist told me I was correct to not unload about Steve, even though a part of me thinks it's my duty to. I don't want to look for a new job.

I like my job, and I'm good at it, and I know that if Steve were gone, I would be very happy where I am. The problem is that my boss is all in on this guy. Steve seems to have his ear. He's ignored complaints from the crew, from the overlooked veteran, and to a degree, from me. I've pointed things out to my boss that were not handled correctly, and nothing was done.

How do I deal with a situation that has me stressed out, not sleeping well, and now contemplating a new job? Signed, finding myself on all fours, man, because I'm at war with this foreman.

Jordan Harbinger: You know who else was on all fours? Oh, sorry, that's a- It's not time for the odd pivot yet.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Not the time. It's not time for the odd pivot, bro.

Um- You jumped the gun.

Jordan Harbinger: Man, this is [00:23:00] frustrating. I definitely understand why Steve, the rogue, unqualified dickhead foreman who can't get along with anyone and who for some reason is in the boss' good graces and can do whatever he pleases, is driving you up the wall. Employees like this are, yeah, they're really tricky to manage.

My understanding is that as project coordinator, you're more senior than a foreman, so you're ki- are you kind of this guy's boss, right? I

Gabriel Mizrahi: assume so.

Jordan Harbinger: Right? He should be listening to you to some degree, at least showing some recognition. But of course, he's friends with the big boss, so he feels like he doesn't need to do that for you probably.

But anyway, I'm sorry you're dealing with this. It's an interesting management challenge. So I think you have two options. Option one is you go directly to Steve and you basically say, "Listen, Steve, I want to talk to you about how we collaborate so we can deliver the best possible work for John and for the client.

You have your way of working, I have a different one, and I'm sure you've noticed that it's causing a little bit of friction, and I'd like to resolve that. What I'm seeing is that you're showing up in the morning, then you go out or you go back to the office. You're not communicating with me about what you're doing, what the project needs.

You're just [00:24:00] acting, and you're taking on tasks that are mine, and you're neglecting other ones that are yours. Then I have to pick up the slack, and meanwhile, our crew doesn't have the leader that it needs. When we interact, I also don't feel you show much interest or appreciation for how this way of working comes across or the impact you have on the team.

That's a real challenge. So we're going to figure this out. I'm coming to you directly as a colleague. I'm not bringing this to John because you and I deserve a chance to work this out, just the two of us." And then see how he responds. If he engages with you, which, um, seems a little unlikely, I guess, but it's definitely worth a shot, I would help him see how his style comes across, the problems it's creating, the opportunities he's missing.

I would tell him how his responsibilities and general tone need to change and how you want to work together going forward. And I would maybe even consider saying something like, "Being a foreman is a big responsibility. It's a leadership position, and I feel you have a lot of room to grow into being a good leader.

I'd like to see you get there. I'm happy to support you in that, but you're going to have to rethink how you manage your crew, how you conduct [00:25:00] yourself, and how you communicate because this whole one-man cowboy show, it's not working for anyone except you." Now, this is right on the line. Even the way I said it could be a little bit, I don't know.

You don't need to be a dick about it. I think that's where I'm going with this. I would say all of this kindly and respectfully, and it'll make an even bigger impact. I might also consider recording the chat if that's legal in your jurisdiction. You can easily Google this. That way if Steve explodes at you and starts cussing you out or whatever, uh, which I'm afraid is possible because people like this often don't like to have their ego tested, or he runs to John like, "Roger went crazy and said this and that," you can just hit play and be like, "Yeah, well, that's not how this went down at all."

Voila. Now, if Steve doesn't engage with you or he plays along but nothing changes, option two, you have a chat with John about this. And the message there is, "So look, I've talked to you about Steve in the past. I think you know that the crew and I are having ongoing challenges with him. Those challenges stem from the way he leads or doesn't lead, the way [00:26:00] he chooses the tasks he wants to do, the fact that he wants to call the shots without much experience or consideration for other people I've talked to him directly about all this respectfully, collaboratively.

I haven't made any progress. Now it's ultimately your call whether you want to keep Steve on in that position, and my sense is that you want him here. If that's your decision, I accept it, but I have a responsibility to you, I have a responsibility to our clients to let you know that Steve is creating some very real business risks.

And if I were in your position, I would want to know what they are. And the key phrase here is business risks, because a lot of times, and this is just the sad truth of how businesses often operate, if you say, "Everyone hates this person and they don't get along," the owner can look and go, "I don't care. My business is doing well.

You guys put your personality crap aside." But if you say, "This person is putting the business at risk," and I feel like we gave this advice recently based on some HR stuff, Gabe.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, this sounds exactly like the consult from Joanna.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. Yes. Exactly, yes. If you frame it as s- I did learn something from this show.

That's great. Uh, people always ask me how I [00:27:00] implement the stuff I learn from the show. Here, you're hearing it in real time. If you frame it as a business risk, then the owner goes, "Oh, wait, this could affect me and my money? Now I suddenly care about your personality differences and the other things that are attendant to that."

And then I would tell him very specifically what those risks are. The effectiveness and morale of his crew, including you, the ability to deliver high-quality work for the clients, the ability to deliver that work on time, the possibility that good people are going to start quitting soon because they can't stand this guy and nothing is being done, and you're included in that bucket of good people.

Whatever the risks actually are. Again, I would not focus on your personal feelings about the guy, even though they're absolutely fair. I would just tell your boss very directly what the liabilities are to him. Then I would tell him specifically what you recommend, which is probably that he make it clear to Steve that he needs to play ball in the ways that you laid out and start factoring you in, or get rid of Steve and find a foreman who can actually lead, you know, and do the job of a foreman.

I've [00:28:00] clearly never worked in construction. You know, it's funny, I, years ago, Gabe, when I was dating, I met this girl from, like, Eastern Europe, and I grabbed her hand to walk out of the bar, and she goes, "You have very soft hands." And I said, "Yeah, I don't really work very hard." And she started laughing, and then she was like, "Oh, I thought maybe you use a lot of cream."

And I don't know what to do with that, but it stuck in my consciousness as an insult for, like, 20 years. because I was just like, "I don't think it's a very c- big compli-" She's like, "You must do nothing with your hands." I'm like, "Correct, ma'am. Absolutely correct. These hands have been disappointing women for decades."

Gabriel Mizrahi: And what did you say after that? And by the way, where is Eastern Europe?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, yeah. Oh, man. Yeah, um- So look, again, I've never worked in construction, so I might be missing certain nuances of the culture, but that's how I would handle this. And look, maybe you're successful with your boss, maybe you're not.

And if you're not, then you're going to have to find a way to accept the situation, or you just find another job and leave, and I hate recommending [00:29:00] that, but that's kind of how this all works. And on your way out, you tell your boss, "Look, I'm sorry, John, I loved this job, but the situation is untenable. I did try to tell you that he was a problem and that he would drive good people away.

You didn't really seem that interested in that, so here we are Maybe that would finally get him to get rid of this guy and keep you or hire you back, and that's how things finally change. Or maybe he won't and you move on, and honestly, that's also fine, but at least you know you did everything you could and you didn't just sit there and take it for a bunch of years until everything fell apart.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think this is an excellent plan, and even if he doesn't succeed with this whole Steve situation, I think he's still going to build some really good muscles along the way.

Jordan Harbinger: I totally agree. B- this is a situation where even if you ultimately fail, you still win.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I wonder why John is so loyal to this guy. Like, do they party together?

Do they go back- Exactly. Are they taking road trips to Arizona? Ah. Uh, you know, does Steve have something on John? I don't... What's going on here?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Man, I was wondering the same thing. Obviously, he has some pull there. They're buddies. Like, I, the joke earlier is, you know, [00:30:00] hey, John gets his weed from this guy, or Steve saw J- John do something weird one night.

I don't know. Whatever it is, the dude's got to feel pretty secure if he has this level of entitlement. That's all I'm saying.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm afraid that that capital is going to be hard to overcome, but if the risks start to outweigh the benefits, then John might wake up and do something. So that's what your script is designed to show him.

Jordan Harbinger: It's also possible he's just known him for a while and he's a really good bullshitter, but that has its limits. And yeah, that's my hope, too. At some point, losing half your crew and missing multiple deadlines has to be worth more than whatever dank weed Steve leaves in your desk drawer every Friday.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm also just remembering that our friend here owned his own construction company until three years ago.

You remember that?

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, right. I forgot about that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't know how much that factors in here, but I can imagine that if you're used to being the boss, he had his own company for almost 20 years, he said, right? It must be really hard to not have the power to change a situation like this, to either sack this dude or make John take this seriously.

You know, our friend sounds super humble, [00:31:00] very thoughtful. He's respecting the politics. He's not openly complaining. He's saying, "I know that there are always people you've just got to learn to get along with," and I love that.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. He's adjusting to being an employee really well. I, I think about this sometimes.

I don't know if I'd be able to do it myself. I, I think I'm possibly quite unemployable. I've actually talked with other entrepreneur friends of mine, business owner friends of mine, and I joke about how I'm unemployable. And you know, what's funny? People who have corporate jobs, they'll go, "Yeah, I don't think that would be a fun transition for you."

They're not saying I'm unemployable, but they're just saying it would be a nightmare scenario to transition to a corporation. But people who own medium businesses or small businesses, especially in the digital space, they're like, "Are you kidding me? You'd be a great hire because this is exactly who we need working here."

But so i- it's kind of, it's interesting. You think, "Oh, I can't do it," but then really you just need to find a role w- that's not so pigeonholed and restrictive that you can't do anything.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Maybe the hardest part is just not being the boss anymore, and [00:32:00] I'm sure that there's also a part of our friend here going, "I would never let this fly if I were in charge," and it's hard to turn that part of your brain off So I just want to call that out, because if the answer here is you just have to make peace with Steve, then he's probably also going to have to make peace with some other stuff, the limits of his power in this company basically.

And I'm sure that brings up a lot of other stuff in addition to his anger and his stress around this dude.

Jordan Harbinger: Good point. He might be in a way mourning his previous power, which, I've got to say I, I do feel for him on that front. That's tough to let go of. But again, doing pretty well with it. I really hope that gives you a way forward here, man.

I've no idea where this is going, but this is one roadmap that should get you to some productive places. Frigging Steve, what a blowhard. I can just imagine this guy, right? I hope he gets checked one way or the other real soon, and good luck. And by the way, y'all can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com.

Keep your emails concise por favor. Try to use a descriptive subject line that makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're finding dead squirrels in your mailbox, you're spinning out about what AI is going to do to your industry, or you're a [00:33:00] suck-it-up buttercup veteran struggling to deal with a chaotic, abusive alcoholic mother, whatever's got you staying up at night lately, reach out to us Friday at jordanharbinger.com.

We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. Speaking of blowhards, time for me to read you some ads. We'll be right back.

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It is a bite-sized gem from a past episode from us to you, delivered to your inbox most Wednesdays. If you want to keep up with the wisdom from the show, it's a great place to do just that, jordanharbinger.com/news is where you can find it. Okay, next up "

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey Gordon and Jabe. I am a 32-year-old man and I've been married for four years.

My wife and I have three beautiful children and after years of planning, we purchased our first home about a year ago. Before we became homeowners, we were renting a house near Kansas City and we came to know a really sweet older woman who lived right behind us. Let's call her Jess. Jess took a liking to us rather quickly and while we were pregnant with our youngest daughter and looking for a bigger space, she put us in touch with her landlord as she was expecting to move into a retirement community right around my wife's due date.

We ended up moving into the house that Jess was living in and after two years, we ended up purchasing the house from the [00:37:00] landlord at a great price. Meanwhile, Jess settled into her retirement community. Over the years, we've continued to see her on a regular basis. We've adopted her into our family, almost like a transplanted grandma who attends our kids' birthdays, cookouts, and the like."

Jordan Harbinger: That is super sweet. I love that. Wow. "

Gabriel Mizrahi: Then about a week ago, I got a call from Jess. She told me that she had been assaulted by an older woman, let's call her Linda, who lives in our building."

Jordan Harbinger: Assaulted by a pensioner? Assaulted. This is so strange and dark.

Gabriel Mizrahi: What started as a small dispute over flowers in a small community garden escalated to assault.

Jordan Harbinger: That is pretty scary.

Gabriel Mizrahi: On this night, around 4:00 PM, after a series of uncomfortable encounters, Jess was cornered in the elevator by Linda, Linda's boyfriend, and several of her friends. The group was making rude comments, blocking Jess's access to the elevator buttons, and repeatedly pushing the wrong button while continuing to mock her.

When the elevator made it to the [00:38:00] next floor, the mocking continued and Jess attempted to escape. At this point, Linda physically assaulted Jess, striking her in the body and head multiple times.

Jordan Harbinger: What? This is horrifying. I- this is some high school stuff or in a public housing unit in a dodgy neighborhood or something, not in a retirement community for grandmas.

This is so bizarre.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Jess pushed Linda away in self-defense, causing Linda to stumble outside of the elevator and allowing Jess to escape. Extremely shaken, scared, and humiliated, Jess walked outside while trying to call the building management as well as the police non-emergency line. Linda followed her, heckling and harassing her as she made it to her car.

Jess, still feeling vulnerable and unsafe, was also incredibly embarrassed that the situation had escalated to violence.

Jordan Harbinger: I mean, Linda should be the one who's embarrassed, but I get it. And by the way, one quick note. You can dial 911 for something that is kind of an emergency. Dialing a police non-emergency line [00:39:00] is essentially asking to get voicemail.

Gabriel Mizrahi: This is very much an emergency, what she was going through.

Jordan Harbinger: If you were just assaulted, that's an emergency. If the assaulter follows you and heckles you and harasses you as you run to your car while you're on the phone, that is the definition of an emergency. And I know people are nervous about calling 911, but as somebody who's called 911 dozens of times, especially when I worked security and worked with the cops and stuff like that, you're not going to get in trouble for accidentally thinking that something was an emergency.

That is ... You really have to essentially waste a ton of 911 call time before they go, "Hey, stop calling us. This particular thing isn't an emergency." I've called 911 because there was somebody sitting on the road that didn't belong there, and he wasn't responding to me. You know, hardly an urgent situation but it was urgent enough that they were like, "Yeah, we're sending an officer over there because who knows what's going on."

So if you think, is it an emergency or is it not, just default to yes, otherwise you're going to leave six voicemails for San Jose PD and they're going to come, you know, they'll call you back in three days.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Poor Jess. She's [00:40:00] such a sweetheart. She just gets physically attacked in an elevator. Yeah. And then she's like, "Oh, but I don't want to trouble anyone.

I'm going to call the non-emergency line." She's so sweet. I

Jordan Harbinger: know.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No, she needs help. This situation with Linda has been building over time and is not exclusive to Jess, with other neighbors complaining to Jess about similar experiences with Linda. We believe Linda specifically targets Jess, however, because she's been about the only person who even remotely stood up to Linda in the past.

Being... Oh, so she is assertive. Mm-hmm. She's just very respectful.

Lip Filla Clip: Okay.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Being rude to her, being mean, intimidating with her group of cronies, that kind of stuff. Jess is a sweetheart who just wants to enjoy her peace in retirement, and these people are threatening to take that away from her. Also, Linda has lived here much longer than Jess and seems to have some pull with other tenants who will clearly back her up and support these attacks against Jess.

If she were to stand her ground, so to speak, it's safe to assume that she will be going up against not just Linda, but Linda's gaggle of geriatric henchmen.

Jordan Harbinger: It's Mean Girls, but [00:41:00] everybody's 75 years old.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The other neighbors who have expressed issues with Linda in the past may be of some support to Jess but will likely not take as strong of a stance against Linda as Jess will.

Jordan Harbinger: Which is also uncool. These people need to band together and get this miscreant out of there. Come on.

Gabriel Mizrahi: What options does Jess have legally? Do the management of the complex or the higher-ups have any culpability here? Is it worth it for Jess to stand her ground, fight the good fight, and try to reclaim her peace in her current living arrangement?

Or is she better off cutting her losses and finding a new place to live? Signed, a concerned adopted son who does not want to be forced into roundhousing a bunch of raisin-skinned, grippy sock-wearing, communal garden dictators.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. What happened there?

Gabriel Mizrahi: He wrote that side off and it made me laugh. Oh, okay.

So I just kept it. I thought it was funny. '

Jordan Harbinger: Cause I was like, man, I know my guy's work and this ain't my guy's work. It's a little more raw. I like it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I kept reading it and I wanted it to rhyme, and it just refused to rhyme, but that somehow was [00:42:00] perfect for the story.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. Raisin-skinned, grippy sock-wearing community garden dictators is a nice image.

It's pretty good.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And I'm just picturing Linda bicycle kicking anybody she doesn't like in her Pilates socks.

Jordan Harbinger: I also love the idea of him coming down to this retirement community to roundhouse kick his adopted grandma's enemies. Yeah. Like, "You stand up from that wheelchair- It's a vigilante ... right now and look me in the eye.

If you mess with her again- ... I'm going to knock your dentures out. Okay, I know you can just put them back in, but it's the principle of the thing."

Gabriel Mizrahi: Truly.

Jordan Harbinger: It's symbolic.

Gabriel Mizrahi: As a nursing home vigilante. Yeah. I can't say I blame him. These people sound horrible.

Jordan Harbinger: They are terrible. I want to slap these people around, too, especially this Linda character.

She sounds absolutely awful. Violently attacking another resident because they had a disagreement over who gets to grow their peonies in which garden bed or whatever? This is actually insane. And my first thought is, oh, this person has cognitive decline. They're suffering from dementia and they're starting to get violent.

But then also her boyfriend joined in and a bunch of other residents joined in, so- Right ... either they're all in the [00:43:00] same boat or they're actually just a menacing gang of elderly people that beat other people up in the elevator, which is gross.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Literally.

Jordan Harbinger: I'm really sorry this is happening to Jess, and I'm so sorry you guys have to watch this happen.

It's super upsetting. It's not right. So I think Jess basically has two legal options. Option one is she reports the assault to law enforcement. In other words, try to initiate a criminal case. Option two is she sues Linda civilly for damages. That makes it a civil case. Obviously, the two are not mutually exclusive.

Now it's up to Jess whether she wants to pursue a civil case. Maybe that'll escalate things in a way that she doesn't want. Maybe she doesn't care about damages. Maybe it's more trouble than it's worth. But if I were in her shoes, I would absolutely contact the police and report the assault, because it's the right thing to do.

This psycho and her psycho henchmen, they assaulted her, and they battered her, actually, and they should be held accountable. But also because she's going to want that paper trail. If this happens again, which I sincerely hope doesn't happen, but it could, the police are probably going to take it much more seriously if there's already a police report about the same [00:44:00] person doing the same thing already on file.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Also, I would hope that the police would look into this, maybe ask the building for any camera footage, which would be really good evidence, and they would also hopefully go talk to Linda directly, and maybe that'll spook her into staying away from Jess.

Jordan Harbinger: And if Jess ever does decide to sue, the police report and the camera footage will probably be crucial pieces of evidence.

A lawyer could also subpoena the building for that footage, too. As for the management of the complex or the higher-ups, if they were notified that this happened in their building and they didn't take any action, they might actually have some culpability here But how you define culpable, it can be a little squidgy.

It also depends on whether you mean criminal or civil liability. I'm guessing this complex has a code of conduct or something like that that all residents are required to follow. I'm sure that that includes not punching and kicking and harassing other tenants in the building and the elevators. Also, tenants in the US are expected to uphold a few obligations.

One of them is avoiding creating serious disturbances or nuisances for the neighbors. Another is using the property in a safe [00:45:00] and lawful way. And I think you could v- very easily argue that Linda has already violated both of these covenants.

Gabriel Mizrahi: There's also the more universal concept in landlord-tenant law of quiet enjoyment of the property.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. Look at you lawyering up over here. Which means every tenant has the right to reasonably peaceful and safe use of their home without any craziness going on.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Correct. And a corollary to that is that tenants generally cannot interfere with other residents' ability to live safely and peacefully. I would say that Linda has violated that concept even more clearly.

Jordan Harbinger: For sure. You said that Jess tried to call the building management and the police. It's not clear if she actually got through to them, if they came out and looked into all this. If she didn't reach them, then no, they're probably not culpable, at least not right now. All that to say, if she did notify them and the management didn't do anything, at least send a warning to Linda or something, then yeah, I could imagine them being named as a party in a lawsuit.

I mean, anybody can be named as a party in a lawsuit. Whether it sticks and results in damages is another question, but it would certainly get their attention. But if Jess didn't get in touch with [00:46:00] them, I would absolutely notify them that this happened with a detailed report. And if the police did come out, I would share a copy of the incident report with the management so that they understand that this was real and very serious.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm assuming this retirement community has some kind of process for handling situations like this. At a certain point, they need to realize that Linda has to go or be watched very closely, or they're going to have a huge problem on their hands one day, because this could get a lot worse.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, definitely. So it's hard for us to say whether it's worth it for Jess to fight the good fight or cut her losses and find a new place to live.

I guess that depends on how dangerous Linda actually is. She sounds pretty dangerous to me, man. I wouldn't want to live with that kind of person. But is she, I don't know, is she a murderer? Is she going to keep doing this every week? Will she calm down after a warning? I just don't know. It's hard to say.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Also depends how much Jess enjoys living at this place, right?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Look, if she's in love with it and it's perfect in every other way, that's a good reason to fight the good fight. If she could be just as happy somewhere else without a psycho neighbor who attacks her, then just do that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Then she might not need to be so attached to this place. In fact, who know, maybe there's something better [00:47:00] out there for her, and this is just a excuse to go look at it.

Who knows?

Jordan Harbinger: This can't be the only retirement community in the area. But honestly, the idea that she has to leave while this psycho gets to stay, that just does not sit well with me. It's hard for older people to move and make new friends So there's a part of me that wants her to fight the good fight.

However, if Jess is in serious danger of being gravely injured or worse by this woman and the police and the building can't do anything about it, then this is a no-brainer. She's got to leave. Either way, your next steps are reporting the assault to the police and to the building and going from there. I would also consider consulting with an attorney, especially if Linda continues.

They can tell you what your options are. They can advise on a lawsuit. They might even help with communicating with the police. But the most important thing right now is keeping Jess safe and finding a way to hold this psycho accountable. I'm very sorry this is happening to you guys. I'm still a little shocked that this stuff happens even at Jess's age.

She sounds like a gem, and you guys sound like an awesome adopted family. I'm glad she has you looking out for her. Good luck. [00:48:00] Also, in case y'all don't know, there's a subreddit for the show. Basically every Feedback Friday question has a thread, and most episodes also have a thread. We would love for you to come and join us over on the Jordan Harbinger subreddit.

You know who won't beat up your granny in an elevator? The amazing sponsors who support this show. We'll be right back.

If you liked this episode of Feedback Friday and you found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do. Take a moment, support our sponsors. To learn more and get links to all of the discounts you hear on the show, visit jordanharbinger.com/deals. If you have any problems with any code at any time, email me Jordan@jordanharbinger.com.

Happy to dig up codes for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show And now for the recommendation of the week.

Lip Filla Clip: I am addicted to lip filler.

Jordan Harbinger: So my recommendation of the week is there's these handcrafted cutting boards that are from a company called Hung On Wood. And one of our listeners, Tony, he makes these awesome wood cutting boards.

I don't know how [00:49:00] Jen found out about it, probably through the email inbox. Anyway, she saw this and she immediately bought one. He made it to order super fast. He had it shipped over quickly, too. I saw it right when I walked in the kitchen. I said, "Wow, this is a boss cutting board. This thing is really nice."

She's like, "Yeah, it's all handmade. One of our show fans made it." And she's obsessed with it. She uses it all the time. My mom saw it. She was like, "Wow, this thing means business." I saw the thing. Again, I think it's beautiful. They're not sponsoring this segment or the show or anything. In fact, Tony, this is probably the first he's hearing about us hyping his company up, so we're just fans of the product and we wanted to give him a shout-out.

And you can check out their product line and learn more about the company at hungonwood.com. And you could support a show fan instead of buying something from, I don't know, whatever, Crate & Barrel or wherever they sell cutting boards. Not that they don't deserve it, but Tony deserves it just a little bit more.

All right, next up.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm in my early 40s and live in the UK. My mom, who's German, has severe COPD, that's chronic [00:50:00] obstructive pulmonary disease, and over the last decade has not stopped drinking or smoking. She has depression, and I think all my life I've tried to help her without lasting success.

I went to therapy two years ago to learn to work through all of this. In CBT, I learned that there are a lot of patterns I've engaged in all my life, and they're never enough because I can't fix my mom.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow, big insight there. Sounds like you've done some good and very important work.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I also have a half-brother who's 20 years younger than me.

He's a real unfortunate product of his parents and he struggles a lot. He never finished his apprenticeship, lost his job and flat, and has already accumulated loads of debt at a young age.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh man, that's tough. I am sorry to hear that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm trying to be there where I can, but I don't push him to talk. I feel like he's had enough of that in his life, and it hasn't helped.

Living abroad makes this extra heavy sometimes. I remind myself that this is their way of living, and I can offer help, but I can't do it for them. [00:51:00] The advice on similar stories that you give on Feedback Friday often helps remind me of that.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I'm glad. It's one of those universal truths that is so obvious that it's really easy f- to forget, but yeah, very clarifying.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Then today I saw something that made me deeply sad on social media. It was about a dog that had been mistreated in a military conflict area. The fact that these things happen all over the world makes me incredibly sad. It's not fair how we as humans treat innocent animals. It sucks. I'm typing this on a train and could break down sobbing right now How could we fix this?

How do I deal with these emotions? And why does this upset me even more than seeing my mom and half-brother struggle? What would Yogi Gabe do about it? Signed, trying to curtail the effects of this sad tale, both my family's story and the one that should be wagging and hail as I ride the National Rail.

Jordan Harbinger: Man, this letter really took a turn, huh?

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's like a European film. Starts in one place, ends up in a [00:52:00] completely different one. Yeah. You're like, "How did we get here?"

Jordan Harbinger: Well, she is a German living in the UK, so I guess that's on brand. The, the girl's blending genres over here. I'm a tad confused though, but okay.

So I'm very sorry to hear about your mom and your brother. I'm sure it's devastating to watch them struggle like this. It's got to be so frustrating to watch your mom continue to smoke and drink when she's got COPD. Uh, also, that just sounds painful and yucky. It's just got to be very sad to watch your brother dig himself into a hole.

Super sad, even harder to deal with when you live far away, so I totally get that as well. I also love that you keep coming back to this principle that you can offer your love and support, but you can't live their lives for them. It sounds like dealing with your family's a great practice for living that idea.

It's not always easy, but it is easier, and it's the right stance to take. So I find it interesting that you started with your family and then you moved to the question of animal rights. I cannot help but wonder if the two are linked somehow in your mind. We can't know f- for sure, of course. We need to know so much more about you.

But maybe you, [00:53:00] I don't know, associate your younger brother with the dog you saw, and you transpose some of your feelings about him onto the animal, and maybe that explains why the post upset you even more than seeing your family struggle. Maybe it's hard to be fully in touch with your grief around your mom and brother, but it's easier to respond to an innocent animal on the internet I feel like this actually happens to me sometimes.

In fact, last month my uncle passed away. It was my dad's brother. We were not super close, and when it happened, I was like, "Oh, that's a bummer. He was old and sick. Sorry to hear it." Didn't really get to me. And then a little while later, I'm scrolling Instagram. This is not even the same day, all right? It's several days later, and I come across this reel.

Well, uh, quite interestingly, it was a dog, I think, stuck in a courtyard or something in a developing country. And all of a sudden I'm like, there's tears streaming down my face. I'm like, "This is so terrible, the poor dog," you know?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Wow. Interesting. Okay. So this basically the same exact thing happened to you.

Jordan Harbinger: We probably saw the same reel. Uh, so- ... maybe we locate our feelings in these other people or beings, or we're just having a delayed reaction or something, and we just n- needs a catalyst to, uh, [00:54:00] set it off later.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I also think dogs are especially easy creatures to identify with because they're just so easy to love, you know?

And it's hard to see them be vulnerable. It's, like, devastating to see them mistreated. That might be part of it.

Jordan Harbinger: I think you're onto something there. They're kind of the perfect avatars for our emotions sometimes. And hey, it's also possible that you're feeling pretty helpless when it comes to your mom and brother, which is one of the many difficult feelings that we have to be in touch with when we stop trying to live other people's lives for them, and that's distressing, understandably so.

And then you see this other terrible thing happening over here and you're like, "Oh, I wonder if I can do something about that. Maybe that would make me feel less helpless and more effective, like I'm actually able to make an impact." It's also possible that dealing with your family has made you more sensitive to other forms of suffering in the world in general.

Or who knows? Maybe one has nothing to do with the other. They're just examples of different kinds of sadness in the world, and they just happen to be on your mind at the same time. Either way, I don't know how we're supposed to fix animal abuse around the world overnight. I don't know. I know Gabe's much more passionate about this topic [00:55:00] than I am.

I love animals, but I also eat meat. I wear leather. I'm not exactly a poster child for animal welfare. But seeing posts about animal cruelty and stuff like that, it'll ruin my whole day, too. It's upsetting and tragic. We just live in a very cruel world. All you can do is get involved in the ways that speak to you.

Donating to nonprofits, volunteer at a shelter, contribute to welfare agencies, do some service trips, raise some money, raise awareness online. I'm sure you're already aware of the ways you can get involved in this world, and these are all great ways to channel your sadness and your anger into something productive.

But your second question, how do I deal with these emotions? That might be the better question because, again, animal cruelty is not going to end anytime soon, and it might never end, sadly. So you might always have some difficult feelings when it comes to this stuff, as we all should, because again, pointless animal cruelty is horrifying.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Agreed completely. I guess I would want to ask her what she means by deal with her emotions. If she means stuff them down or pretend that they're not there, I'm not sure that's going to get [00:56:00] her very far. That never really works anyway. And again, her reaction to seeing people cause another sentient being pain for no reason, that's appropriate, that's warranted, so I'm not sure if she needs to make that go away.

If she means how do I sublimate these feelings into something more productive, I think that's smart, and Jordan just talked about a few good ways to do that. If she means how do I feel these feelings and not let them dominate my life or ruin my entire day, maybe this is more about how she works with her feelings in general.

We don't know you, so we don't know how you feel a feeling or what you do with a feeling, how it affects your mood and your outlook and all of that. But obviously processing these feelings is important, whether it's talking to somebody else or writing them down or putting them into action and transforming them somehow, which I guess is, that's just the sublimation thing again.

That's really the best way to quote-unquote deal. But I wonder if maybe feelings in general can kind of become overwhelming for you or stick around longer than you would like. And if that's the case, I would ask your therapist about that and see if you guys can dig into why these feelings [00:57:00] feel particularly difficult, how you can learn to contain them a little bit better so that they don't dominate you necessarily, you contain them.

I might also talk to your therapist about this interesting shift from your family to this video you saw. You know, maybe talking it out will reveal an interesting association that makes it make sense, if it needs to make sense. I don't know. But this is kind of broad advice, I realize, but it's hard to solve this question in a few minutes on a podcast because it's such a big one.

Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm. So fair to say that that's what Yogi Gabe would do?

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's what Yogi Gabe would do. Yogi Gabe would also strongly consider experimenting with a plant-based diet, even if it's just part of the time. But, you know, Yogi Gabe would also know that that is not, it is not his place to tell other people how to live, so there's that.

Jordan Harbinger: Yogi Gabe would remember what our friend here said, which is that he can't live other people's lives for them. Yes, of course.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly. Yeah. And also Yogi Gabe also is not 100% convinced that veganism is absolutely the correct way to live. It's just, it just feels like a harmonious way to live, and it's one [00:58:00] very concrete way that I've found to do right by animals in my own life.

Because we share the earth with them, and that's why I think it's important. But I don't know. I'm open to being convinced otherwise if new data comes out or if I see the world differently. It's just kind of how I've been for a while and how I am now.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I hear that. This is an interesting letter, man.

There's some psychic link between a mother who won't take care of herself, a brother who can't manage his life very well, the feeling of being far away and unable to change them, and the fact that at any given moment there are animals that are suffering in the world. What it is, I guess that would be a cool thing to explore in therapy, but maybe the link matters less than the questions that it raises, which is what does this say about me and my values?

Do I want to try to contribute to the solution, or is this something else that I just need to accept? And what does recognizing this boundary, that you can't make other people do anything they don't want to do, that you can't make the world a kind place on your own, what does that bring up for me, and how do I learn to accept those feelings?

I think those questions are probably going to get you a lot further.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think that's exactly right, Jordan. I also wonder if the fact that [00:59:00] she wrote us on a train has something to do with it.

Jordan Harbinger: Trains are emo, man. I don't know what it is, especially at night. You listen to the right kind of music on a train, and it's like a psychedelic trip or something.

Yeah. I really don't get it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Trains and planes-

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah ...

Gabriel Mizrahi: for sure.

Jordan Harbinger: They say people cry more when they watch movies on airplanes, but I don't understand how that can be because you have somebody who's five inches away from you.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I remember looking into this, and apparently the evidence for that is kind of weak.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But I think we all feel that. We all know that we kind of get emo when we fly. So apparently researchers have suggested that there is something about airplanes, and I assume trains too, but maybe to a lesser degree, that makes us more vulnerable. So it's some combination of the isolation, reflection. You're also tired when you're flying, and there's some mild stress associated with it, so all of that together tends to lower your emotional defenses.

Jordan Harbinger: So that's why I cry way harder when I watch Marley & Me on an airplane, got it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, bad example because it's a dog. Right. So if you don't cry when you watch Marley & Me, you're probably a monster.

Jordan Harbinger: That is true.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Probably, yes. And trains are similarly wistful. You're in a liminal [01:00:00] space. You're alone with your thoughts.

Also, it sounds like our friend here is from another country, and her mom is far away, and I know that traveling can remind you that you're a foreigner in a foreign land, and, you know, there's a lot of distance between you and the people you love. That can be emotional. So it's just interesting. Maybe the venue also played a role in her response and also maybe her desire to reach out to us in the first place.

Jordan Harbinger: I'm sure it did. I'm sure it did. I'm sure those animal cruelty videos hit different when you're watching them at a Manchester United match or something like that on your phone. In any event, I'm sorry you're wrestling with these big feelings, but I also don't think these feelings are wrong or bad. What you do with those feelings, the meaning you make of them, and how they play a role in your life living so far away, that's up to you So keep going to therapy, keep talking, keep acting, and I know you'll survive these moments.

Sending you a big hug and wishing you all the best. You know, Gabriel, it reminds me, there are some sort of- there's a, an element of homesickness that people get too that compounds. It's like a multiplier effect. You know when you're drinking and then you smoke something and you feel way [01:01:00] drunker than you were before?

That multiplier effect that the kids talk about- Mm-hmm ... that I haven't experienced in a decade, thank God. That kind of thing happens with homesickness. And I remember I was in Serbia, uh, I think we still called it Yugoslavia back then or whatever. I was there at night. I woke up. I couldn't sleep. I was super homesick.

I was like, "I hate it. Things aren't going my way." I had some problems with, like, the police or something, which I've mentioned on the show before. I was getting harassed. It was annoying. My job was kind of annoying. I didn't have that many friends at the time because I was new there. And I remember being like, "Screw it.

I'm just not sleeping tonight." And I turned on the TV, and the Super Bowl was on. And I was like Wow. I have to watch this. This is exactly what the doctor ordered. I don't care about football at all, man, but I was watching the Super Bowl with, like, Serbian announcers talking over, over top. And I watched the whole thing, and it- what- what's funny is it was the Janet Jackson, I think Justin Timberlake or whoever it was Super Bowl where she had the wardrobe malfunction.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Iconic.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. And I remember they zoomed in on the nipple, and it's- in the U- apparently- ... in- and I remember being like, [01:02:00] "Is that a nipple piercing? What am I looking at?" because it was European TV, right? So this is a Serbian broadcast probably done for all of Europe. And so they just left it on. Whereas in the- I heard later, because I read about it all the next day, in the United States, they zipped away from it as fast as they could as soon as the whatever s- director, producer, whoever it was realized what was going on.

But the Serbian TV, they just left the camera zoomed in and the guys are like, "Oh. Oh, look at that. Oh, you don't see that every day." You know, just, and talking about it, talking about it, talking about it. No commercial, no sort of halftime anything. They were just, like, talking about that zoomed in on it until they rushed her away and covered her up, and then they were just talking about her nipple for, like, the next 10 minutes.

It was really funny. It was a totally different take on the whole thing. Anyway, I normally wouldn't feel homesick, and I normally wouldn't feel that sort of sense of, like, entertainment and relief from the Super Bowl, but there's that multiplier effect. So maybe also because she's so far away and she felt this way and she felt that way and she hit the video and she was on a train, I think all that stuff just adds together and you get a rush.

It's like when you're just minding your own business and it's Memorial [01:03:00] Day and you, you turn the TV on and there's some memorial for guys that died in World War II and you just lose it. Like, that happens to me, too. It just, the dam breaks, man, you know? Who knows what the recipe is that makes it happen every time.

Go back and check out Joanna Stern and our Skeptical Sunday on alcohol if you haven't done so yet. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network. That's the circle of people I know, like, and trust. I'm teaching you how to build that same thing for yourself for free in our Six Minute Networking course.

It's not schmoozy. It's not gross. It's very practical, and it's free on the Thinkific platform at sixminutenetworking.com. Dig that well before you get thirsty, folks. Build relationships before you need them. Show notes, transcripts on the website, advertisers, deals, ways to support the show all at jordanharbinger.com/deals.

I'm @JordanHarbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's on Instagram @GabrielMizrahi. This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tadas Sidlauskas, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer [01:04:00] but not your lawyer.

Consult a qualified professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn.

And we'll see you next time. You're about to hear a preview of a story that sounds unbelievable, but Ava LeRoux and her daughter Kyah lived it for 12 years. "

Eva LaRue: Dear Mr. Capuccio," that's how they were addressed. "Please pass this letter on to your wife, who I would like to rape and kill and dismember. Love, Freddy Krueger."

Kaya McKenna Callahan: I mean, I knew at a certain age that it was bad, that it was, you know, rape, mutilation, killing, dismembering. I knew that in a general sense.

Eva LaRue: At that point, you feel safe nowhere, because it's this amorphous threat. Doesn't have a face or a name or, it's just feels like it's coming from everywhere. So my hair started falling out.

I broke out in hives f- like, for a month and a half, almost two months. I was like a shell. [01:05:00] I didn't know how to protect my kid. I didn't know how to protect myself. It doesn't matter how much security you have at your house. For a while there, when CSI ended, I thought, "Oh, thank God. Like, maybe he'll just be off of it."

And for about six months, we were enjoying no letters at all, and then all of a sudden they started again like Fast and Furious. Because after 12 years, I just, I had stopped hoping that he'd ever be caught. Of all the women that were murdered in the United States last year, 86% of them were stalked first.

We will never not be hypervigilant. And he's out. So how do we just go, "Oh, he's fine now. I'm sure he's totally sane"? because people go from insane to sane. I'm sure it fades with time, and I don't know, for us, as long as this guy is alive, I don't know that it'll really be able to fade for us. There is no before.

There's only going to be an after, and I don't know what that looks like.

Jordan Harbinger: To learn how they survived it and how the case was finally solved, check out episode 1283 of The Jordan Harbinger [01:06:00] Show.