89: How to Get a Raise at Your Dream Job | Feedback Friday

Transcript for How to Get a Raise at Your Dream Job | Feedback Friday (Episode 89)

Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to Feedback. Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. I'm here with producer, Jason DeFillippo. Here on the Jordan Harbinger Show, we love having conversations with our fascinating guests, and this week we had General Michael Hayden, talking about trust essentially and the intelligence community. And I know that sounds a little vague and nebulous here, but I thought that was an interesting one, Jason. He kind of dove into how trust is at the core of functioning democracies and functioning corporations. I think there was a lot there. Yeah, it might've seemed a little political, but I enjoyed that one.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:00:33] I totally enjoyed that one. And I've said for the record that I don't agree with what he did when he was in office, but I love having a discourse with somebody I don't agree with, so I think that's what makes us grow as people. So for me it was a fascinating show and I learned a lot.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:46] And we had Charles Ryu part two. He escaped from North Korea twice. I co-hosted that one with my friend, Gabe Mizrahi, who traveled with me to North Korea a few times.

I think each of us had been there for, he might've been there five times now, because he kept doing trips there and guiding people on trips there after I had already stopped going. So super interesting story of a guy who's 24 looking forward to a great life, but had just insane almost science fiction or I guess lack of science really, when you're talking about North Korea.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:01:20] There's no science going on in North Korea.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:01:21] Right, no. A lack of science fiction past just really incredible story of a heroing story of escape and just an insane life that no kid deserves to go through. So if you missed those, go check those out in the feed this past week here, and let us know what you think. Of course, our primary mission on the show here is to pass along our guests and our experiences and insights along to you. So in other words, the real purpose of the Jordan Harbinger Show is to have conversations directly with you as a listener. And that's what we're going to do today here on Feedback Friday. You can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Try to keep them concise if you can, it really does increase the chance of your question getting answered on the air because we get books all the time, literal books and figurative books in the inbox there. And I just love getting to a lot of different topics from everybody. But when you give us your life story from age six onward, it's impossible, so keep them concise. If we need more details we will reach back out. But always nice to have a concise question that someone's actually thought about but not too much.

[00:02:25] And a big shout out to all of our new show fans from Emory Law School where I spoke this past week. That was a lot of fun talking to their incoming law class about networking and relationships. Been doing a lot of speaking lately, so if you're interested in stuff like that, I basically run a class on networking and relationship development. It's great for professionals, it's great for students. You can email me Jordan@jordanharbinger.com, and we could talk about it. But Jason, in the meantime, what's the first thing out of the mailbag?

Jason DeFillippo: [00:02:51] Hey Jordan, a couple of months before I turned 22, I was offered my dream job to become an editor at a sports publication that I used to read cover to cover when I was growing up. I jumped at the opportunity, as a recent college graduate, I didn't think to negotiate the initial salary offer of $30,000 a year. 10 years later, I still love my job more than ever, but now I have a wife, an eight year old step-son and a three year old daughter. After a raise in March, I'm now earning a whopping $40,000 a year. I'm 32 years old with 10 plus years of experience in print and online media, but my family has been living paycheck to paycheck for years. My wife works limited hours and earns minimum pay. I love my job and the people I work with, but more importantly, I want a house in a yard for my family. Right now, we can't even afford a two bedroom apartment in suburban New York. You can't place a value on having a job that you truly love, that's a big reason why I've looked for supplemental forms of income instead of a different job, but I've recently begun to steel myself to the possibility of having to look for work elsewhere. Should I go straight to my publisher and try to negotiate another raise? Regrettably, I've not actively networked, but should I try to rekindle some weakened dormant professional connections in hopes of getting a few offers? Bottom line, I need to increase my salary so I can adequately provide for my family. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Need A Moolah Not Mags.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:04:08] Nice. Okay, perfect. I can appreciate this. First, whenever you're trying to negotiate a raise, especially if it's one of those ultimatum kind of things like, “Hey, I can't afford to work here anymore.” Try to get other offers because the best time to look for a job, or ask for a raise at your current job is when you already have a job. I know that makes sense, but I think for a lot of people they go, “Well, you know, first I'm going to ask my boss and then if that doesn't work out, I'll start looking for something else.” But first, you can use other offers to get a raise. You could say, “Look, I've got X on the table from this other company, but I really want to stay here.” That's a great way to get a raise. Probably the best kind. You've got to make sure you've got those other offers in writing first, of course, not just you know, verbal, “Hey, yeah, we'd love to have you.” Oh, that sounds like it might be within our budget, you don't want that. You want, “We're willing to offer you this job at this price, essentially this salary.” The other thing is be cool about it, don't turn it into the ultimatum. You want to make it look like because you are, trying to make things work with your current company. See what they can do to get you closer to what you need to survive and thrive and move forward and be happy, and be careful not to just go what seems like the easy route and go to your boss first. I know that the logic says, “Look, just go to your boss. Be honest. Tell him what's going on.” I would love to give you that advice. In a perfect world, we could just ask our boss for what we need and see what happens. But unfortunately there are a zillion stories of people asking for a raise, getting denied, and then guess what happens, Jason? He get fired.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:05:41] That's pretty much what happened.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:05:42] You get fired because they think, “Oh, well, you know, if you don't want to be here because you're looking for all these other jobs because we now can't afford to pay you what you need, then you're just going to quit and you're going to leave us in the lurch.” “You're just going to quit as soon as you get a better offer, so we want to let you go now.” And the sad truth really, what this means is that you need to look elsewhere first in secret, which I always thought was dumb, Jason. I mean, you have more real job quote unquote experience than I do, but is this accurate? You've got to kind of like sneak around, get offers and then say, “I've got this other offer but I don't want to take it.” It just seems dumb. It seems like dating.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:06:17] It really is. It kind of sucks. It definitely sucks. I've actually done it and just lied, and said I had offers and got a raise that way. I'm like, “I'm leaving if I don't get what I want.” And you generally get it, if they value your contribution to the company. Done that like two or three times when I had to, because I couldn't pay the rent. I was severely underpaid and this was back when I worked in the movie business, which is a business that you just never get paid what you're worth anyway. So that definitely worked, but I was young enough and didn't have a family. So it's one of those things where you never get off the train until the other trains at the station kind of thing. So you don't want to like put your job in jeopardy in any way, shape or form when you're providing for your family. I was just a dumb kid so, but yeah, you definitely have to shop around and everybody does it. I mean honestly everybody does it. Every company I've ever worked at, everybody was looking for the next one.

 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:07:11] That's a bold move to lie because if they're like, “Well sorry, we can't provide what you need, good luck in your new job. You're like “Um, so.”

Jason DeFillippo: [00:07:19] That’s what I’m saying. Yeah, I was young and dumb enough where I could get away with that. You can't do that when you're providing for a family. So you definitely don't want to do that, that's a cautionary tale for him. Because if they say, “Okay, enjoy yourself at your new company,” then you know your kids go hungry, you can have that.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:07:36] Like, “Oh, I'm so glad you have another offer because I was wondering if I should fire you or Jim and Jim doesn't have another offer, so you're making my life a lot easier. Thanks, you just made my Friday a lot easier.”

Jason DeFillippo: [00:07:47] “Thanks, bro!” Exactly.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:07:48] Yeah, good luck in your new job. We'll have a lunch for you on Friday. So yeah, you don't want to do that. So be careful. I hate having to give advice, like sneak around do dah, dah, dah. I wish there was another way to do this that was fair, but seemingly there isn't. I've asked a lot of people about this in my area, maybe I'm just missing something. Starting a side hustle also an option if you want to do it, this can be helpful. But I want to break the mold here of business owners or shall I say, Jason, entrepreneurs because that's the new buzzword or not so new buzzword. People are all like, “You've got to have a side hustle. Everyone should be a freelancer. Everyone should have a side hustle.” Eh, it's not for everyone.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:08:31] No, it’s not.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:08:33] It's just not, I'm not trying to sell the world on the idea that they can make money on the side or that everyone needs to run their own business or be a freelancer, because one, it's not really true in my opinion. Two, I think it's something often recommended by people who sell products for how to start side hustles. It's like --

 

Jason DeFillippo: [00:08:49] Exactly, yes.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:08:51] Like, “Oh, everyone needs a side hustle.” “Oh, that's cool. What do you do?” “Oh, I teach people how to start businesses online.” Got it, okay.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:08:59] I read a book called Side Hustle. Here you go, would you like to buy a copy?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:09:02] Exactly. Exactly. Now that said, if you're looking to learn from someone who actually knows what they're doing with side hustles, I recommend Chris Guillebeau, friend of mine, super sharp guy, ton of experience with this stuff, taught lots of people how to do it, not as far as I know, his primary income. He does a lot of things and he's not hell bent on making sure that the entire world turns into a bunch of freelancers who sell, hemp eyeglass frames or something for a living. I'll link to his stuff in the show notes because his last name is French. Therefore, way too many vowels is you're never going to find it. So look, maybe it's time Moolah Not Mags to start looking elsewhere. Even if it means you're not going to leave your current company. It's normal to switch gigs by the way, especially after a decade, and it's often easier to get a raise and a more substantial pay raise at that by leaping into something new, then by trying to squeeze more out of your current employer and I did a little research on this one. Now, granted I came into Forbes, which that could just be a bunch of garbage, so do your own research. But I did see statistics of dubious repute that say things like, “Hey, people who switch jobs more often end up getting paid more,” but it makes sense logically, right Jason? Because if I give a standard 5 percent raise every year to my staff, but then you switched jobs every three years and you get a 10 percent raise on the years that you switched jobs. Even though you forego that 5 percent raise, well that starts to add up over 30 years. So it does --

Jason DeFillippo: [00:10:35] It does, but you have to look at industry to industry. It's industry specific because some industries, like I was in in web building, that is an industry where people do switch jobs quite often. But he's in magazine publishing, which might be different because it's kind of an old school type of thing. So like if you're seen as switching jobs too often, it might be a red flag for the next employer saying this guy just doesn't like to stick around too long.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:11:00] Yeah. Or they're like, “Oh, we'd like to reward our more senior employees, and you're new now.” Oops, so I don't know. You're right, it is industry specific. You're right, tech tends to be more, here's a raise, here's a raise, here's a raise, we're luring you away because we need customer reps or something. So here's another raise because we got funded, here's another raise, that kind of thing. So if you don't get exactly what you want in the form of a raise, you don't have to walk away empty handed by the way, you can ask for support in other ways as well. So maybe they say something like, “Look, I would love to give you a raise. I can only give you a 2 percent raise. I can't give you the 8 percent to get you up to snuff, or 5 percent to get up to snuff. But what if you never had to come in on Friday again? Now you've got a flexible --

Jason DeFillippo: [00:11:46] Ohh, that’s good.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:11:47] Right?

Jason DeFillippo: [00:11:47] Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:11:48] Yeah. So I mean, look, I don't know if this is something that a lot of companies can do, but I would imagine that it's better than losing someone. So if they're thinking, “You know, you don't have to come in on Friday, it's the least productive day that we've got. You don't get new stories thrown in your lap because you know, this part of the publication, so we don't need you as much. You're productive and other areas of the week, most of your Fridays FaceTime” Take the Friday, now you've got three day weekends, so your childcare bills are lower because you can stay home with your kids on that day. You can get a bunch of other stuff done. You could use that for freelance or side hustle work if that's what you got going on. It might be better than a raise to get 20 percent of your work time lopped off the end and a lifestyle increase to boot. So just something to toy around with. Just something to throw around in the old noggin there. It might be a tough sell, but it might be an easier sell than, “Look, I need 10,000 more dollars and I got a bounce.”

Jason DeFillippo: [00:12:46] Right. I like that.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:12:48] Yeah. So let us know how that goes, because I did find that suggested elsewhere online. But again, probably industry specific. If you're working 120 hour work weeks and finance and you say, “Look, I don't need a raise, I want a day off.” They're going to be like, “Guess what? You're fired.” But if you're a writer, and you're getting all your stuff done, maybe it's better for both of you if they don't have to give you a raise and you get that extra day. There might be some flexibility here that neither of you have explored.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:13:16] This is Feedback Fridays. Stick around and we'll get right back to your questions after these important messages.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:13:21] This episode is sponsored in part by Varidesk. Traditional static offices, yep, sounds pretty boring. But today, companies and employees want an active workspace. We don't want to sit down all day, we don't want to have that weird hunch we get from leaning over all the time. Varidesk helps people re-imagine their work environment and transformed their office design. You know, they've got great stuff standing desks that are built like tanks. They've got standing desks that sit on top of your regular desk that actually work well and don't pinch your fingers in them and stuff like that, because you got to be more active at work. You've got to stand more, sit less, improve your employee health, your own health, boost energy, boost productivity. It's one of the reasons that I'm able to get so much done as I move around a lot. I don't sit there and stagnate and sort of ferment in a cubicle, and Varidesk has what you need. They've got this new ProDesk 60 Electric standing desk, which is just a beast. You can assemble the thing in under five minutes. It's built like a tank, like I said, stable at any height, throw anything you want on there, it'll be all good. It feels like it's fixed, but it moves up and down, it's very fancy. And I like it, I love this thing. They sent it to me, and the thing is, you know, you got to be strong enough to put it together, but once you are that thing, I ain't going no place. Try it. The ProDesk 60 Electric, risk-free for 30 days with free shipping and free returns if you're not satisfied, learn more at VARIDESK.com/jordan, that's V-A-R-I-D-E-S-K.com/jordan.

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Jason DeFillippo: [00:15:59] Thanks for supporting the show. To learn more about our sponsors, visit jordanharbinger.com/advertisers. We're rebuilding the show from scratch, so a nice rating and review in iTunes or your podcast player of choice would really help us out. It only takes a minute or two, and if you want some tips on how to do that, head on over to jordanharbinger.com/subscribe. Now let's hear some more of your questions.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:16:20] All right, next up.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:16:21] Hi Jordan, Jason, and team. I'm 26 years old. Seven months ago, I got a job that has brought me to move to my first apartment an hour away from home in a larger city. I understand that for many, this doesn't seem like very far away, but recently I've been having increased anxiety and panic about the prospect of being all on my own instead of living with my parents, which I did after college to save money. I'm financially stable and have a nice apartment alone, but that's just what it feels like now, cripplingly alone. I know you advocate seeking professional help for things like anxiety, which I am, and doing activities which I try to do such as play on local adult sports teams and going to groups. One problem I found is that the friends I'm meeting just don't compare to my longtime friends from back home. I'm not about having a large network and rather just a few really close compatriots to help me along. I'm single and have never dated, but meeting someone for that purpose at this point just raises my anxiety, despite most of my friends being married. I do go home on the weekends because of plans with my other friends or parents, and for many months had been fine with that. But now, during the week I simply can't stand to be alone in my apartment. Aside from the recommended professional help, do you have any tips for easing the overwhelming feelings of being on your own for the first time? Strategies for coping with anxiety and how to see the future is a positive instead of missing your old life. Also, any tips for finding fulfillment and purpose in a job or position that is flat lined in interest? I need to stay in this position and build up my resume for at least another year, but I don't want to be miserable the entire time. Thanks for all your help. Listening to your show and Grumpy Old Geeks really gets me through the drives and the day. Sincerely, Unhappy Camper.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:17:57] Huh! So here's a little something I notice. So let me back up the truck. This isn't just about being alone, otherwise you could just get a roommate, whatever. What I think is going on here was that little tiny half sentence that she wrote or he wrote earlier in that there's a general lack of fulfillment and purpose in the job and that interest has flatlined.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:18:20] I totally caught that too. Totally caught that, yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:18:23] That was like a kind of, “Yeah, I'm really lonely. I miss my friends, you know? Do you have any tips on I hate my life otherwise?” Yeah, that's kind of what I heard. Like it's kind of like saying, “Oh man, I'm way too short and that's my problem. Also, I don't have any money and I can't leave the house and I have crippling anxiety,” but really, “It's because I'm too short.” It's like, “Wait a minute.”

Jason DeFillippo: [00:18:44] Exactly.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:18:44] So this is what I think is the key here. Interests could have flatlined because of anxiety and loneliness. That is possible. Sure, I won't discount that entirely, but it could also be the cause of some of the anxious feelings in the first place, and the loneliness part is a symptom of this stagnant feelings popping up. This sort of job stagnation feelings. It's hard to say which is causal and which is a symptom, so we don't actually know what's causing what chicken or egg problem here. Is it the loneliness causing this feeling or is it job stagnation and lack of purpose? And then we can't just make suggestions about how to solve the problem because if we saw the loneliness problem, but the cause is actually the lack of purpose and anxiety and not lack of anxiety, the anxiety and the lack of purpose I should say, then it's kind of like given a box of Kleenex to somebody who's actually allergic to all the plants in their house. It helps with the symptom, but it doesn't do anything to address the actual problem itself. So you're on the right track talking to someone at length about how to uncover the actual issue and cause here. And I also think it's great that you're keeping up relationships with friends and family back home because if that helps ease the burden and get you emotional support, then that's great.

[00:19:57] I would suggest learning something like a new skill, a new hobby, dedicating some time to that each day after work, so you're not just sitting in an apartment thinking about how miserable you are, try going to the gym working out each day, that type of thing will help you get your mojo back. Reading books on a certain subject, doing deep dives, that's always helped me a ton in the past when I was home sick, living in other countries, lonely, whatever. I read a lot. And my bet is that you're not just lonely, but you're not sure where you're headed in your career and which, so of course, you're knee deep in that mix. It kind of feels like the same thing. Kind of feels like, “Well I'm lonely and that's the problem, and also this job's not really doing it for me.” But you know, mostly I just feel really alone and if I -- it's like back when we were doing a lot of the dating stuff. Guys would write in and say things like, “Yeah, you know, I've got crappy home life and I've got this crappy upbringing and I don't really like my job, but if I get a girlfriend, everything's going to be great. I just need a girlfriend.”

Jason DeFillippo: [00:20:52] Oh, yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:20:53] And it's like, “No, you need to fix all of this other stuff and then you won't worry about having a girlfriend.” And then when you find one you'll be like, “Hey, look at all this awesome stuff I'm doing, come into my world.” So this sort of sounds like the same thing. I just need my friends, I need to move back, and be in this place where I was because when I was back there I was happy. Were you happy just because you're around your friends? Look, I think you should definitely maintain those relationships for sure. Emotional support is important, but I don't really think it was just that. Probably you are happy you around your friends, you around your family, you had a bunch of support, you were excited about this career that you're in now, and now that you have the career and you moved to the city, you're like, “Oh, wait a minute. This isn't what I thought,” and that's normal. This isn't anything out of the ordinary. It just looks like loneliness. It looks like you miss your friends when really there's a lot of other pieces out of places. Well, maybe you just couldn't put your finger on it, or maybe you decided there was nothing you could do about that. So yeah, the job thing sucks, but whatever, I can't do anything about that. Where do I meet people or how do I make sure that I'm not lonely? Maybe that's just the thing that's attracting your attention that you think you can fix when really it's a mix of things. So you're on the right track seeing somebody about this. But I would bring this up to them. I would definitely explore all the areas in which you think something is out of place because usually it's a combination of things. So I hope that helps and keep in touch. Let us know how it goes.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:22:18] The other thing I would mention is video games actually helped me when I was feeling lonely in that age range in the mid-20s, because nowadays like when you and I play video games, it's collaborative. You meet people online, you can talk to people and you actually get that social need, when you just can be sitting around your house not having to even do anything, you know, don't even have to put your pants on. You can play some video games, talk to some people, meet some new friends, and you have a collaborative goal together and that might help. Just kind of like tweak that anxiety while still trying to figure out the job issue and all the other problems that you just mentioned. It just might be a way to kind of mitigate the symptoms like you were saying.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:22:58] Perfect. All right, next up.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:23:01] Hi, Jordan and Jason. Big fan of the show here. Me and my girlfriend come from very different backgrounds. She comes from a well-off family. While I had to work from an early age. We're now engaged in the difference in backgrounds starts to bother me more and more. Will I ever feel like a provider in a family, which is important to me? Will I be able to give her a lifestyle she is used to? Will the differences in our backgrounds like choice of restaurants, how we spend free time, things we value in? People start pulling us apart as the time goes by. I understand she chose me not because of money and she genuinely loves me and makes a lot of compromises, but differences like this start to matter more and more as you build your life together, any thoughts would be appreciated. Signed, Thinking Ahead.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:23:41] Hmm. Never a fan of this type of thing. I always, I mean not the question, just I mean the situation is not good because this issue is not going anywhere. You're going to have to deal with it at some point. Now, while I can't tell you if you're going to feel like a provider one day, nobody can tell you how you're going to feel at any point in time. What I can guarantee is that someone who grew up wealthy will have a very different view of money and time than someone who grew up working from an early age. Now, whether this is something that negatively affects the relationship that's up to both of you, this is probably something you'll have to start managing sooner rather than later. And I would definitely start having tough talks about this as soon as possible, especially since you're engaged.

You know, this is something that you simply cannot and should not ignore because problems that exist in relationships get worse after you get married, they don't get better after you get married. And this is especially true if you have kids later down the line. It's really hard for people to change outlook, values, mindset, even if they want to, and you're in a place right now where it doesn't sound like either of you are sure of what you want or what you need, and so think about this. Even if she's like, “Well, you know I'm making compromises, it's okay.” Even if she wants to do the change, that's one thing, but what happens later when she was like, “Look, we've been married for five years. You're still not making as much as my dad was as a corporate lawyer, so I'm unhappy now, or I feel like it's a judgment on the relationship now, et cetera.”

[00:25:15] You mentioned that she chose you because she loves you and makes a lot of compromises. That compromise word --

Jason DeFillippo: [00:25:20] That's a red flag right there, yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:25:22] Yeah, what's the compromise? No house in Montauk. I mean that's not really a compromise. It's not really a compromise. It's sort of -- just, I don't know, I don't like the sound of that. Maybe I'm reading into it too much, but it sounds like something that might become a bigger problem later on. In making compromises, sacrifices, whatever in relationships, that's normal, but you need to make damn sure that you have the same goals and outlook moving forward. She might be thinking you'll earn more and more. You'll fill in the gap in what she wants versus what you have now, and you might be thinking, “Look, I plan on earning more of course, but I don't plan on buying a house in Montauk and a boat.” And she might be like, “When are we getting a house in Montauk and a boat? “Oh, I don't need that right now, but I need it in five years.” Maybe she'll change your mind, you don't know. You've got to make sure that you are on the same page. If so, great, that's fine. But if you're looking forward to a different type of career path and you and her have mismatched expectations, or one person goes, “I don't need that because we have love,” something like that, that's a recipe for disaster. So get all this stuff out on the table now before it all becomes a bigger problem later on. My inbox is full of divorced people who waited until after they got married to handle these types of issues or lied to themselves or lie to each other, usually to themselves though, about these issues, so don't let that happen to you. Get all this straightened out and if you're having trouble having really honest conversations about it that are uncomfortable, maybe see a marriage counselor before getting married and have them ask you all the right questions, which I don't have here.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:26:54] Definitely.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:26:55] Yeah, yeah, because look, rich people marry normal, regular folk like us all the time. It happens and things are --

Jason DeFillippo: [00:27:05] [indiscernible] [00:27:05]

Jordan Harbinger: [00:27:06] [indiscernible] [00:27:06] right. Yeah, it's fine. It totally is workable in America. It doesn't matter a lot of the time, it's not a big deal, but if someone's thinking like, “Oh, well we're 25 now, and then by the time he's 30, he's going to be making $1 million a year like my dad did on Wall Street.” No, it's unrealistic. And people don't even necessarily know of what they're looking for is unrealistic. We just, we don't think about it. In fact, if you want proof, what's that study, Jason, where people will vote? I don't even know if it's just a study or it’s just people in general, but it was something like people who are making below average salaries will still work for policies that benefit rich people more because everyone thinks, “Well, later on I'm going to be one of those rich people.” Have you heard this?

Jason DeFillippo: [00:27:55] I think that’s called, I haven't heard the study, but I think that's our current administration.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:27:59] Yeah. Yeah. People will vote for things that disadvantage them because they think, “Well, you know, in 10 years I want this policy in place,” or “In five years, I'd want this to be the way it's going to be because dot, dot, dot, I'm going to be rich.” Statistically not true. It's kind of like saying, “Look, I want to make sure that this is this way because I'm probably going to win the lottery soon.”

Jason DeFillippo: [00:28:20] Exactly, yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:28:21] And we just think, “Oh, I'm just going to work hard. I'm going to keep going, dah, dah, dah. This system's not rigged against me.” No, statistically speaking, you are not going to be jumping up multiple income brackets in the next few years, it's just unlikely. So I don't remember what my original point was there. I think it's “All right, I do now.” It's because “Look, you've got to make sure that you're not thinking but love.” Right? And then you get married and then in five years it's like, “What the hell is your problem?” And you're thinking, “What? I'm doing great. I love my career.” And she's like, “Well, I don't.” So figure out--

Jason DeFillippo: [00:28:57] Where's my boat, bitch?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:28:58] Where's my boat? You get to be miserable, I need a boat. And it's not even selfishness. A lot of people will look at this and go, “Well, this isn't what I wanted out of life because this is the way things are supposed to be.” And you're thinking, but “Aren't we happy otherwise?” And then one person's struggling with it. It's just get this stuff out on the table now, or it will rear its ugly head later and you'll be married and have kids in a house. It'll be a lot harder to unwind if that's what needs to happen.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:29:27] We'll be right back with more Feedback Friday after this.

[00:29:30] This episode is also sponsored by Wrangler. Everybody has a favorite pair of jeans. The pair that fits perfectly and always looks great. The pair you wear out at night, at home on the couch, at work, wherever. They’re the go to, do not underestimate their importance. No one knows this better than Wrangler, the authority on jeans. Using their expertise and comfort and durability and applying it to a new line of modern fits and styles. Wrangler jeans are made for the modern day adventurers, the go getters, folks who like to keep moving, whether you ride a bike, a bronc or a skateboard, or you're the type who walks the Earth in search of something these are the jeans for you. Classic or modern styles, a range of fits at a price that works for you. Vintage rereleases Wrangler has something for everyone and don't forget the iconic patch and their stitched W. American icons for over 70 years. Visit wrangler.com and check out their great selection of jeans, shirts, pants, outerwear for men and women.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:30:23] [Past Event] [Omitted from the transcript]

Jason DeFillippo: [00:31:50] Thanks again for supporting the Jordan Harbinger Show. Checking out the sponsors is what keeps us on the air and for our list of all the discount codes and links, visit jordanharbinger.com/advertisers, and if you have an Amazon Alexa, check out our Alexa Skill. You can get clips from previous shows and your daily briefing. It's completely free. Just go to jordanharbinger.com/alexa or search for Jordan Harbinger and the Alexa App. Now back to more of your questions here on Feedback Friday.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:31:56] All right, next up.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:31:58] Hi Jen, Jordan, and Jason. I'm a 34 year old dairy farmer from Finland. 10 years ago, I joined my siblings and brother-in-law's dairy company, so we own it shared 25 percent each. Farming isn't so good right now, so people are getting more and more down and worn out, myself included. I'm the youngest by 10 years of the four of us. How the hell am I supposed to tell the other partners who were once my mentors and idols to level up their mindset and work ethics or else everything is going to crash and burn? I don't want to hurt anybody, and if I say what I think, they won't come back to work. We have six people working for us and they're also getting tired of this negativity debt and cost crap. Without the workers, we don't get things done. I really want to keep this alive so my kids can continue with it if they want. Any suggestions because I can't keep up these 90 to 100 hour work weeks much longer. Thanks, Coward Cowboy.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:32:48] Yikes. That sounds rough. Okay, farmers are a different breed, man. Look, I know you're a fan of the tradition, but there's a reason that some farms are subsidized in the United States, and in part that's because of these types of ups and downs, and also because otherwise just is not as profitable as it once was. This might not actually be something you want to pass onto your kids if I'm going to be so blunt. I just, I don't know why they would want to do that if you're miserable right now. Yeah, it's kind of a cool tradition, but how valuable is it to the lifestyle? You know, you can milk things just about anything I've heard as a hobby you know, it doesn't have to be your job. You can have pets, you can get your own milk, you don't have to sell it. It doesn't have to be something you scale up.

Because kind of what I'm hearing is I work with my family and it used to be amazing and it's this amazing tradition and now we're all angry, negative, hate each other and want to quit.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:33:45] Here kids, would you like to join?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:33:46] Yeah, where do I sign? I don't have any economic advice for how to kick things up a notch because I've never milked anything as far as you guys know. It sounds like morale is low among the workers and that's because of, or a result of whatever. The morale being low among your partners and forcing them to change is also not very likely. It almost sounds like they all see the writing on the wall here. So I would look at a different question, is there a way to scale things back instead of trying to energize everyone and just work more all the time and get everyone excited? Maybe there's not a whole lot to be excited about right now and perhaps there's a way to leverage what is working in the business, or find something else that you can use to pay the bills. I know there are a lot of farms where it's like, “Hey, this used to be a dairy and now it's a petting zoo.” I'm not saying open the petting zoo, but what I'm saying is there are ways to pivot. There are ways to -- you could turn into some kind of other type of business. There's all kinds of ways to scale this down, and I know you've got sentimental value attached to what you're doing right now. At age 34 though, you're too young to settle into an industry that's dying, a slow, painful death, especially if your partners won't help you get out of it. Now, if you wrote and you were 64, and you're saying “Sometimes I just think I'm going to retire and be done with it,” then I would say, “Yeah, retire and be done with it. Scale back your work hours.” You're 34, this is the beginning of your career. If this is already such a hard grind, not because you're learning so much and you're at the bottom of the totem pole, it's because it's not working. You've got to figure out how this is going to work. You're not going to be able to carry this on your own. Don't be the last man standing here, if the people you work with won't come back to work, even if you tell them the truth. Is that really the kind of place you want to work? You know that red flag of,”If I tell everybody what's wrong, they're never going to come back.” Well, if they're just looking for an excuse to, maybe you should take one as well.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:35:39] Yeah, seriously.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:35:40] Yeah. All right, next up.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:35:42] Hi guys. I have a pretty successful career in health care. I come across as someone with confidence and competence, at least according to my wife and assistance. Okay.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:35:51] Okay.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:35:51] I like that. I'm wondering if you have any suggestions for my problem of double talking, for lack of a better term, while I'm talking to friends, family, patients, et cetera. I noticed that both of us tend to talk at the same time. I would almost always stop myself and say, “Excuse me,” and ask the other person to continue on with whatever they were about to say. I used to think it was them, but because it's been happening for the last three or four years, I'm probably the most likely culprit. Perhaps it may be because residency in my line of work is very top-heavy. Meaning when the boss speaks, everyone shuts up regardless of who has the right of way. I certainly didn't have this problem when I was growing up. Any help and suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks, Double Talking But Not Out Of My Ass.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:36:31] Interesting little questionnaire. If you're talking over people, it's almost always because you're in a hurry. What you might consider doing is letting others as surprise speak first and then simply speaking when they're done, as if you hadn't thought about that. But I know that sounds super simple. I've also been in this position and it always happens when I'm trying to do too much at once. And I can imagine that that's the case when you're in the healthcare setting and you're trying to see a huge number of patients in a short amount of time, et cetera. So get in the habit of asking people a question and then letting them talk and then when they're done, say your piece and move on. So, so that's the simple answer. There may also be something happening here with the cadence with which you speak. Since I'm not talking with you, I can't diagnose that, but there are certain people that speak so slowly that I end up talking over them.

[00:37:18] Frankly, if you end up talking over people sometimes just do it. They can speak after you. If it happens with everyone you're speaking with, even at home, then it might become a problem, but I don't see how talking over someone initially and letting them speak after you're done is a problem. I think you're probably just a well-mannered guy who doesn't want to come across as rude, and it's messing with the cadence you're using at work. So maybe you're a little too tentative, so people are getting the idea that they should speak first and then you end up talking over them. Fortunately, my job involves talking over people all the time, so I got used to it. I no longer feel bad about it. Ask your doctor if being a loud mouth is right for you. That's what I think about that. I think usually when people talk over each other, it's a cadence thing. If unless one person's just really obnoxious and they're like not listening. You know, Jason, when you talk with those people?

Jason DeFillippo: [00:38:07] Yeah, I totally know, exactly. Yeah, yep, totally know.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:38:11] And then they're talking over you and then you're like, “Hey, you're interrupting me.”

Jason DeFillippo: [00:38:13] Yeah, totally happens all the time. Yeah, all the time.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:38:16] All right, next one.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:38:18] Hi, triple J, which is Jordan, Jason, and Jen. I like it, we're triple J now.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:38:22] Yeah.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:38:22] Part of the skills you teach often mention how a person has to blow their own horn because no one will do it for them. However, many people roll their eyes when someone self-promotes, since it violates the social contract that prohibits boasting about oneself. I never signed any such contracts with you.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:38:37] I know. No, no, but I'm great at signing contracts. I would know. I would remember. I have a great memory too.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:38:42] Is self-promotion only appropriate at the negotiation table? I know there's an appropriate limit and a person should not start every conversation by self-promoting. See how much you taught me, but what's that fine line? Can you offer some guidance how a person may self-promote without sending the eye-rolling barometers into the storm zone? Thanks a bunch. Your friend, The Eye Roll Barometer Weather Man.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:39:03] Yikes, that's a long one. I can tell you didn't think of that one.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:39:06] Nope, that's not one of mine.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:39:08] Okay, so here's the rule that I just made up. Self-promoting is okay, as long as there's actual value for the people being promoted to, and it's not the dominant theme of your conversations. So further, the agenda for the conversation itself cannot be promotion. For example, if someone says they're getting a new job, I'll say, “Hey, we've got this Alex Kouts series on negotiation. It helps with salary, could make you a bunch of money either right now or in the long-term.” I'd say, “Look, it's been downloaded over 300,000 times or whatever. It's one of the most popular episodes.” Then I would email them links to the show, tell them how to get the episodes and then we'd move on to something else. What I won't do is take over the entire conversation and make it all about self-promotion. I won't start a conversation with the idea that it will become about self-promotion. If something comes up organically, I'll promote what is valuable for the rest of us in the interaction and then leave it there. If you follow those rules, you'll be fine. In the end, you're probably overthinking this. I've met very few people who promote themselves too heavily, and I lived in LA for eight years for Christ sake, you know. It's a common theme over there, but it's still pretty rare among conversation. Those types of relationships don't last long, and I know that's what you're worried about. But if someone says, “Hey, I'm looking to get a new computer.” And you go, “You know, my dad owns a computer store. He knows a lot about it and dah, dah, dah.” That's useful. What's not useful is, “Hey, where do you guys want to eat for lunch?” “Hey, have you seen my new YouTube docu series? Check it out.”

Jason DeFillippo: [00:40:41] Exactly.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:40:41] It's really great.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:40:42] We’re just trying to figure out some Chinese man, come on!

Jordan Harbinger: [00:40:44] Yeah, exactly. “Yeah, I go to Chinese food and this one, it's hilarious. It's such a great video. I made the whole thing by myself. I'm really good at making videos. You should watch it.” “Hey, can you share this on Facebook?” That's annoying, but everything else is pretty much fine because people want to help you anyway, right? It's as long as you're not just, “Hey, when you come to my birthday party, can you not talk about your YouTube docu series thanks.” Otherwise don't come. You know there's, I don't even know anybody who really liked that. Those people tend to be caricatures, and I'm in those circles, I just don't know that many people who are like, “Oh God, don't invite Larry, he's terrible. He's just going to talk about himself the whole time.” I don't know that many people like that.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:41:25] Yeah, and I'm still in L.A, and I don't know that many people either. It's one of those things I think he's stuck in his head with this and just, you know, as long as it's context appropriate, promote yourself all you want.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:41:36] Exactly.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:41:36] But yeah, if everybody's trying to order some Chinese and you're talking about your YouTube channel, you're probably out of bounds.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:41:43] Exactly. The other thing is if you're helping other people get what they want, get accomplished things that they need to do, you're actually, in my opinion, allowed to be a little bit self-promoting when necessary, so I wouldn't worry about that too much. Yeah, you're right. He's probably, the problem with people who worry about self-promotion too much is they're the people who don't self-promote too much. The people who don't worry about it, other people that probably should take a page and go, “Hey, you know, maybe I talk about my crap too often. Maybe I do that too much.” Nice people go, I don't want to be salesy, you now you've got to promote at a certain level. People won't let you know if you're over the line, but it's so hard to go over the line that I wouldn't worry about it too much. I really wouldn't.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:42:22] Exactly, yeah, totally agree.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:42:24] All right, next up.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:42:25] Dear J, J and J, after being laid off from a good paying job and then experiencing massive disappointment after disappointment, I sheepishly took a low level entry job and now find myself settling into a situation I don't want to be in. Like an emasculated tiger in a Thailand zoo. It feels like a constant weight of hesitation that is most noticeable in how I'm interacting with people in an office setting. I'm shy to speak up in group settings, use passive language, unassertive stuttering, et cetera. How can I learn to have a fluid conversation with people when I'm constantly feeling less then? Do I need a bit of naive self-belief and confidence? Any thoughts on how to organize ideas and points and speak in an authoritative way rather than incessantly rehearsing a statement in my head before saying it and coming off as unsure. How do public speakers, lawyers, professors, podcasters do it? Appreciate the help, Shy Tiger.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:43:13] Hmm. All right, yes. So this one's kind of hard to judge because there's clearly a lack of confidence rubbing off on your work life. I would say get a voice coach, you know, they'll help you be a little bit more authoritative, et cetera. I do recommend that, but again, as per this earlier question that really just treats the symptom, it doesn't treat the cause. I wonder if you're looking for other jobs. I also want to recognize the idea that getting confident in other areas is very, very helpful. I would build confidence by getting into better shape. Maybe you've let yourself go with diet and exercise, maybe there was a little stress, maybe you haven't quite gotten back into it. How are your personal relationships, friendships, things like that? These areas are important because how you do anything is how you do everything. And as much as I hate self-helpy bumper stickers, I like that one because if you're not feeling confident because of recent setbacks, sometimes the way to rebuild confidence is to get other areas of your life together first and then go from there.

[00:44:13] So if you're not feeling confident at work, the answer is not, “Well, I'm going to work my way up here, or hope another job falls out of the sky.” And in the meantime, be miserable. The answer is I'm going to start running and go back into shape, hit the gym again, start my diet up again, feel good, go out, make some new friends. “Oh, look, I’m doing better at work.” “Oh look, I'm more confident.” That's how this stuff works. You can't sort of will it into existence, and if you're not climbing out of the hole at work, climb out and get back on top outside of work and you'll have a more firm foundation upon which to get your work life back together as well.

[00:44:48] Recommendation of the week, Zion. This is a short film on Netflix and when I say short film, it's 11 minutes long. It's about this wrestler with no legs, but he doesn't just have no legs. It's almost like the lower half of his body is missing entirely.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:45:01] So it really is about, it's a short film.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:45:03] Yeah, yeah. Oh, I see what you did there. It is incredible. This guy was born this way. He was abused, he got tossed around foster families, and the foster families abused him. Here's something I don't get. How in the hell our foster families often not always, of course, so abusive? You hear that a lot like, “Oh, I was in foster care a lot. I got abused by a lot of these foster families.” Who fosters a kid just to be in a-hole of the kid. What is going on there? Isn't that, what the hell?

Jason DeFillippo: [00:45:30] It's about the paycheck because you get money for every foster kid. So people do it to make a living, even though they don't really care about the kids. It's a terrible, terrible system.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:45:38] I didn't know that. I thought you just went, “Oh, I'll foster a kid because this is an important thing to do for people.”

Jason DeFillippo: [00:45:45] Oh, you get paid, you get paid. That's what you see like people with like big homes with lots of foster kids because that's what's paying for that McMansion that they're living in.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:45:53] I had no idea about that. I just figured nice people took in foster kids because living in orphanages sucked and they wanted to adopt a kid eventually or something like that.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:46:03] Sometimes, yeah, sometimes that happens. There are nice people out there who do foster kids, but when you hear these horror stories, it's usually about the people who just use it to make money and don't really care about the kids.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:46:13] Yeah, that's terrible. Anyway, so he was in that system, gets into wrestling and is like just really good at it. It's a cool little inspiring short film, again on Netflix it's called Zion, Z-I-O-N. And I recommend it. I thought it was a movie trailer and then when it was over I was like, “Oh, that was the whole thing.” Oops, so enjoy it. Hope you all enjoyed this as well. I want to thank everyone that wrote in this week and don't forget you can email us friday@jordanharbinger.com to get your questions answered on the air. Happy to keep you anonymous of course. A link to the show notes for this episode can be found at jordanharbinger.com. Quick shout out to Simon or Simone may being from Montreal, just found us since he listened to in sequential order to the old show. Just found the new show so little late to the party. Welcome back. You've got some binge listening you can do. And to Timm with two M's, he works in substance abuse prevention. And he was so pissed when we had Michael Pollan on to talk about psychedelics and then he's like, “I'm an unsubscribe, and then he didn't because we said don't turn this off just to have a listen and trust us. And he's excited to learning about all these potential medical uses for psychedelics that he did not know about.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:47:24] Awesome.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:47:24] So thanks, Timm. I'm glad you're enjoying the show. I didn't know about that stuff either. So don't feel bad. I'm on Instagram and Twitter @jordanharbinger. Great way to engage with the show. I'm always answering my messages there and I'm posting on Instagram regularly while on Twitter and Instagram regularly. I throw videos in there, I throw some tips in there, kind of Feedback Friday stuff ends up in there occasionally, answers to questions, and Jason, tell him where to find you.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:47:48] You can find me @jpd.me. That's where all the links, all my socials are. And I've actually started blogging again. So there's a bunch of AMA stuff that I asked for podcast questions on Twitter that I'll be posting up there. So if you've got any podcasting questions, just come on over and ask me and I'll answer them for you. And you can also check out my other podcast, Grumpy Old Geeks, which is at gog.show, for info on how to subscribe.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:48:11] All right, so keep sending in those questions to friday@jordanharbinger.com. Keep them concise if you can, really does help it. Well, I'll be frank. It increases the chances that we'll get this thing on the air because if we have to edit it down seven paragraphs, we just skip to the next one. Share the show with those you love and even those you don't. Lots more in the pipeline, very excited to bring it to you, and in the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time.

[00:48:37] If you like my show, you're not going to want to just no excuses with Jon Taffer. Shut it down and listen to Jon the award winning hospitality legend does. He brings his straight talk and unapologetic approach to daily topics and current events. You don't want to miss his latest interviews with Dennis Miller and Dave Portnoy, better known as El Presidente from Barstool sports. So download No Excuses each week on PodcastOne or wherever you get your favorite podcasts.