1252: Her Delusions You Fled; Now She’s in an ER Bed | Feedback Friday

1252: Her Delusions You Fled; Now She's in an ER Bed | Feedback Friday

This transcript is yet untouched by human hands. Please proceed with caution as we sort through what the robots have given us. We appreciate your patience!

Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with feedback, Friday producer, my Naka e, soaking with me in the scalding Onsen of Life drama, Gabriel Mizrahi. So is that close? I feel like I added a couple extra beats.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Nicely done. I love that. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: All right. Whatever.

Gabriel Mizrahi: We're just free balling in these hot springs of WTF for sure.

That's a great one. I love that one.

Jordan Harbinger: Sitting on those little buckets in the bathhouse before we go in, scrub a dub dubbing off the dues before we go into the bath.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm in Japan right now. If you cannot tell from this insane conversation we're having. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Naka E. You taught me this word, Gabe.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Courtesy of one of our listeners.

By the way, Joan in Tokyo. Shout out to Joan for teaching me some killer slaying that I've been using in restaurants. It's making a big difference. Joan, a traditional Japanese name, what does that mean?

Jordan Harbinger: Like homey kind of

Gabriel Mizrahi: buddy

Jordan Harbinger: pal. Yeah. So Naka e Man, the nicknames get weirder and weirder the [00:01:00] more you travel.

And I guess we'll talk about that in a second. Here On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. And our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker.

During the week, we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, war correspondents, neuroscientists, astronauts, homicide investigators, tech luminaries. On Fridays, though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious sound bites, and gently don our finest CCAs in preparation for this protracted ritual of spilling the ceremonial tea.

Jase Sanderson: Hey guys, it's producer Jase here. If you want to skip Gabe and Jordan's travel stories this week, just breeze past the stunning monasteries and the worst seven 11 offense Gabe has ever committed in his life. You can jump on the bullet train and get off at the DOS Cruise exit at 16 minutes and 20 seconds.

Gabe,

Jordan Harbinger: Ohio Ga. Ima ban my dude. [00:02:00] For me, it's definitely not Ohio over here. No, whatever. I don't know what I'm talking about anymore. You're back in Japan.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Ban my dude. I am back, son. Back in the land of obsessive detail and shutting the fuck up in public. I'm so happy. Yes. Your favorite soundtrack, silence punctuated by the occasional jingle of the subway doors as they close.

Exactly right. The Bing bong. So are you

Jordan Harbinger: in Kyoto now? Is that correct?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, I'm in Kyoto. I'm with my other Na Aaron Margolis, as you know the fucking

Jordan Harbinger: doctor. Happy birthday to Aaron by the way. Hell of a trip. I don't know. What are you guys doing over there? I mean, in vegan Japan. It's gotta be kind of an interesting,

Gabriel Mizrahi: uh, I'm having to be flexible on the veganism, unfortunately, but that's just part of the territory in Tokyo and Kyoto.

You can be vegan very easily. But when you get into smaller towns and when you're traveling with a non-vegan, which as you know, I don't want to impose my veganism on everyone else. So I am being a little flexible. But yeah, little birthday trip for the Good Doctor. It's her first time in Japan. [00:03:00] We did Tokyo for four or five days.

It was incredible. But it was a whirlwind. We did hako for a day. We stayed in the mountains. It's like a traditional Japanese kind of, I don't know what the word is in or something. Yeah. But they can be quite nice. That was dope.

Jordan Harbinger: Think paper doors and sleeping on the floor on the, to Tommy's and like Yes,

Gabriel Mizrahi: totally.

Yeah. Sitting. It was exquisite actually. We went to a really beautiful one and now we're in Kyoto, which is one of my favorite places in the world.

Jordan Harbinger: I think it's a Rio Con. If you kick someone really hard and they fly through the wall, that's how you know what kind of hotel it is. If it has those like wooden paper,

Gabriel Mizrahi: that's the Quentin Tarantino test?

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, the the Tarantino test, whether you're in a Rio Con or not. So

Gabriel Mizrahi: if you feel like a medieval samurai parking in a small village for the evening before you do battle the next day. It's a Rio Con

Jordan Harbinger: if ninjas may actually arrive in the evening on unexpected. And what are those little like toe sock things that they wear running along the roof?

You could be at a Rio Con, but otherwise it's up in the air. So are you guys having fun? I assume all you do is feedback. Friday [00:04:00] consults. But

Gabriel Mizrahi: I could be wrong. 24 7 feedback. Friday consults. Yeah. Pretty spilling the tea, the green tea while we take the bullet train and hike up and down. Monasteries. That's all we talk about.

Is you guys

Jordan Harbinger: good? Yeah, that's what I thought. I need to know that the two of you're solving doozies while you're living your best lives. Otherwise, I can't cope with the fomo.

Gabriel Mizrahi: We ran out of things to talk about days ago, so thank God we have these feedback Friday letters to analyze.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I figured. How could you possibly have a friendship that doesn't revolve around what you both do for the show?

You and Erin, you guys have been good friends for a long time, but have you traveled together before?

Gabriel Mizrahi: No. Okay. This is our first time traveling together. We're still learning all those things that you learn about someone when you spend more than a day or two days with them. You know, like their needs, their triggers, their rhythms.

Okay. So she's never seen you brush your teeth in public. Perfect example. Yeah. So she now knows that she has to wait three minutes while I brush my teeth before we leave a restaurant, or she's learning that when I get quiet, [00:05:00] I'm not mad or anything. I'm just obsessing about a script I have to turn in soon, you know, that, that kind of thing.

Jordan Harbinger: So I is now a good time to admit that I broke up with a girl because she would only poop at home, which I totally sympathize with, but I'm like, we are traveling. You can be that person who has to like go home from Starbucks when it's a few blocks away. But if we have left the hotel and we have done brunch and now we're like, I don't know, at a monastery, no, we're not going back to the hotel so that you can take care of that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh. She's like, no, I can't poop in public. We're going back to the four point Sheraton.

Jordan Harbinger: Then it became, no, I'll just go alone and I'll meet you later. And I'm like, that's me sleeping on the couch for the rest of the trip and definitely putting up with some passive aggressive nonsense. So I basically just put up with it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Did you break up with her on the trip or after you got home?

Jordan Harbinger: No. That would've been terrible. That's the worst. I can only imagine. That's the worst. We're gonna get emails from people that have done that. No. I was smart enough to know that I couldn't do that, but I remember in my head being like, I'm done like on Wednesday and we were leaving on Friday.

I was like, this is done now. Finished. Anyway, all those travel quirks. [00:06:00] Yeah. What the other person is like when they're tired of their hungrier and whether they can clench up for another few hours and make everybody else's trip a little more

Gabriel Mizrahi: funny. You mentioned the hungry thing. A few days into our trip, this was in Tokyo, we had this.

Epic amazing day. We wandered around this neighborhood called Alka. We took the subway to all these far out places. We hit some amazing temples, and around four or maybe 5:00 PM we end up at this vintage movie poster shop in Kandin Bocho, which is this new area of Tokyo I've never been to. It's famous for used bookstores and collectibles and DVDs, stuff like that.

This store we end up in is kind of overwhelming. It looked like the house of somebody who is both a hoarder and super ooc. D. Yeah. Okay. The most amount of used paper-based collectibles you have ever seen in your entire life, but meticulously organized. Just looking around. The store was exhausting. We were going through all these folders and files they had [00:07:00] that they collect from people's, like when someone dies and they have a ton of collectibles.

Jordan Harbinger: I was just gonna say, this is, this screams my uncle collected these until the day he died. And then I was like, geez, I gotta sell all this. And I just opened a store doing it. That

Gabriel Mizrahi: is exactly what the store is. And I found all of these stunning Japanese movie posters of American movies that if I ever get an apartment again, I'm gonna frame and put up.

I was in heaven.

Jordan Harbinger: It's cool. It's just cool stuff. Nobody has the time to put on eBay or there's so much that there's no reason to even sell it on eBay because you've got a store it somewhere, so you might as well make it a retail storefront. Exactly. It

Gabriel Mizrahi: would take years for you to put it online. You just have to stand in the shop for an hour or two and sift through these collections yourself and then you walk out with a few jumps.

Anyway, it's fun, but it's exhausting. And finally, I look over and Erin gives me a look that I now know is. Erin is hitting a wall, she gets hangry. She cannot function much longer.

Jordan Harbinger: That's so relatable. When I'm hangry, I'm the worst person and I can't do anything about it unless I eat [00:08:00] like I have to eat or I'm a tyrant.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So interesting. I don't get hangry. I do get a little bit, maybe a little depleted and a little foggy, but I can power through for a while. So I'm learning how to work with other people's hangar anyway, it is time for dinner. It's clear. So the plan was to go to this restaurant I love called RQ in ata. And I know about this place because two years ago when I came with my sister and my brother-in-law, we ended up at this restaurant one night and had the time of our lives.

It was one of those evenings where we're like hanging with the sushi chef, talking to the restaurant owner. They're drinking at our table, like we're having a ball at this place. And we took pictures with the owner and we just had a love fest and we still talk about this woman to this day 'cause she was such a character.

Anyway, so I'm like, I really wanna take you to this place, rq. We get there and it's closed on Monday nights and Google Maps didn't say that. Or maybe I didn't look closely enough. So we can't do RQ that night. So we start looking around, Akiba looking for a place, and we are going from restaurant to restaurant and every single place is booked or needs [00:09:00] reservations.

Jordan Harbinger: Dude, Japan loves their reservations. The place could be half empty and they're like, do you have a reservation? You're like, no. And it's like, should I just make one on my phone right now while I stand outside in the rain? Yes.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Roll up culture is not a thing here. So this happens to us. We get turned away from 6, 7, 8.

It might've been as many as 10 places, sushi bars we're. I'm in restaurants, weird Japanese sandwich spots that are run by people who don't speak English and don't have any desire to be helpful to us like we are lowering the bar more and we cannot find a restaurant. And meanwhile, Dr. Naca over here is swiftly decompensating.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, hangry. Just kicking in me like, why did I come to Japan with you?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Erin is having a Fukushima Daiichi grade meltdown. Okay. The the reactors are starting to crumble into the sea. No one is gonna be able to fish within a hundred miles of Erin Margolis for at least a decade. She is a husk of a Japanese sweet potato, but she's [00:10:00] practically non-verbal.

And I am getting pissed off myself because this is one of the downsides to Japan. You get into these moments, you love everything. It's an amazing day, and then it's time to do something you can't, and you get frustrated. No one speaks English, no one will help you. You need reservations, but you can't get one.

And I just want to take care of my friend and get her fed before she detonates. So we're both hungry. We're kind of like delirious now. We walk past a cat cafe and they have a big picture of cats outside and Aaron's like, oh, cat Cafe is so cute. And I'm like, can we eat the cats? Like that's how hungry we're like, then immediately I'm like, but

Jordan Harbinger: do

Gabriel Mizrahi: you have a reservation?

I'm probably not without a reservation. Exactly. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Nope. You can't. Uh, and even if you could, you need a reservation that is dark, but yeah, you really can't do anything in a situation like that. So what are you now, or Oh, I see. Is this the seven 11 story? Has the bar officially crashed to the floor?

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's right. Okay. We're like, okay, new plan. We go to seven 11. Got it. And we get some snacks [00:11:00] to, uh, hold us over until we can solve this problem. So we go in, Aaron grabs an uni gear, which is like those stuffed rice balls. You know those ones where they wrap it in the plastic so perfectly and then you unwrap.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I can't with those things, but yeah, I do know what you're talking

Gabriel Mizrahi: about. How do they do that? It's like the wrapping on the plastic on the ole gear in Japan is so intricate. It makes you realize why they didn't give up in World War ii. Like it's, they're just so good at it and I find some SOA noodles.

Then we have a new problem, which is where do we eat this?

Jordan Harbinger: Because you can't eat in public. Oh my gosh, I forgot about that. Yeah. Yeah. Famously

Gabriel Mizrahi: cannot eat anywhere but homework restaurants basically. And in some seven elevens you can eat though there's a separate section with a little table and stuff, but most of them you can't.

So we're like, do we just go for it? Tear open the packages and we start eating at the seven 11? I'm sweating a little bit 'cause I really don't want to be the guy who gets all talking to about this, but it has to happen. And so we're standing by the smoothie machine and seven 11 just shoveling this into our mouth and a woman comes up to us [00:12:00] like, yeah, no eating like very forcefully.

And we're like, oh god. Bad guidance.

Jordan Harbinger: That's like the opposite of Taiwan. In Taiwan, you go into a seven 11, they got a ton of food. There'll be like an empty shelf. And I remember thinking like, why is there an empty counter here? It's such a bad use of space. It's such a small, tiny place. What are they doing?

And then you come back later around dinnertime to that same seven 11 and there's four people eating elbow to elbow eating noodles. They just bought a moment ago from seven 11 on that shelf next to this hot water dispenser, which is actually a counter for people to eat. So they're like, nah, eat it. Go ahead.

It's every place where you can buy. Anything food-wise in Taiwan is basically also a mini restaurant. It's perfectly acceptable to eat dinner at a seven 11 in Taiwan.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Must be nice. You can't do that here in Japan. So we slink out embarrassed, we sneak outside and just outside the seven 11, there's a stairwell that goes down into this other restaurant that is closed.

So we're like, okay, this is great. We're just gonna sneak into the stairwell. We crouch in the shadows, we shame stuff, food in our mouths. And this is working [00:13:00] pretty well. And while we're sitting there, Erin is Googling restaurants, more restaurants to see if we can get in anywhere. And she finds one that will deliver food by robot to us.

Okay. And I'm like, great, can we eat the robot? How is this gonna help us? And finally we give up. It's just not gonna happen. No restaurants. And then a restaurant manager walks down the stairs to the restaurant that is closed and gives us a weird look. And a few minutes later he pops out of his restaurant, he has his phone to his ear staring at us.

And he just has that face that is universal. He looked like he was calling Japanese ice to have us deported. He's telling us to leave. I'm dying inside because as you know, I love playing by the rules of Japan. I do not wanna be one of those people you see on TikTok who are like, how funny is it to violate Japanese norms?

Like, not me. So we're like, okay, let's just move on. We finished, we go back into the seven 11, the scene of the crime to throw away the things because there are no trash cans anywhere except seven 11. And then we walk around the corner and right around the corner from the seven 11 is a restaurant, and we walk in and they seat [00:14:00] us immediately, oh, how's your food poisoning?

It was flood of relief, no food poisoning. It was just wonderful. But it was one of those places where Japanese businessmen go to get wasted after work and cut loose and talk. And so the restaurant is so loud that Aaron and I can't even hear each other talk. So we just sit there. For an hour in silence having dinner.

And every so often we look at each other and just nod, yes, this is good. We averted disaster, but just barely. Next time we might not be so lucky.

Jordan Harbinger: Geez. What the, how bizarre. Trying to solve your hangar while not alienating everyone in Akihabara. I know I'm saying that wrong, but I can't deal with it right now.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Just one of those random evenings. Yeah, that's stressful while it's happening and afterwards you keep laughing. I don't know. It was just a ridiculous evening,

Jordan Harbinger: man. Your travels are, first of all that're making me hungry. But second of all, there's something about just when I used to backpack many years ago when I went to Japan to visit my girlfriend at the time, 'cause she worked at the US Embassy, she was the assistant to the ambassador there, which was cool.

Because we lived in the middle of Tokyo in this nice two floor apartment that was just hers. Yeah. And I remember [00:15:00] bumbling around and probably breaking a lot of norms, but there weren't nearly as many tourists in that area once you got away from, because I think it's like in Rappongi, which is of course super touristy.

But anything we did that was kind of outside that, or in Kyoto, people just put up with us. And I remember carrying most of my luggage on my back, and it was just such a fun experience and felt really safe. And I remember one of her friends was like, if you can't find a place to stay, you can just sleep on a bench.

And I was like, what? Why would you ever do? They're like, no, no, no. It could be totally fine. You could just sleep on. I bet you know when you're in college, like you might actually be willing to do that. Now I of course would never do that, but when you're like 19, you're like, oh. They're like, yeah, if you can't find a place that's within your budget, just sleep in the park on a bench.

No problem.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I wonder if that's still the case. 'cause I have not seen that anywhere. I'd feel weird doing that, but that's good to know for sure. Honestly, we stayed in Rappongi when we were in Tokyo in an APA hotel. I don't know if you know this, but it's one of those kind of Japanese businessmen, hotels.

The rooms are so small, it felt like being in one of those Norwegian prison cells, you probably get more [00:16:00] room in a Norwegian prison cell. I think it was actually a step or two down from a Norwegian prison cell. It was so small and I had the thought, I might prefer to sleep on a park bench than in this room.

I'm gonna look into this in case I ever get stuck again.

Jordan Harbinger: Geez, I don't know why those, I mean

Gabriel Mizrahi: those, those like

Jordan Harbinger: coffin, hotel bed things, I don't know. Japan is quirky like that. It's really a lot of fun if you're willing to sort of be flexible and maybe bring a protein bar in your backpack. Alright, Gabe, what is the first thing out of the mailbag?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, I've been married for almost 10 years. At first, it seemed like a happy marriage. We were in love and we went through so many struggles together. I lost my job, moved in with my in-laws, and saw firsthand what it's like to be raised by narcissists. I found another job and watched my wife graduate college.

We survived and worked through the pandemic. She was in the medical field and I work in law enforcement. Wow. Two of the hardest jobs to do during the pandemic. Yeah. That must have been really intense for a long time. Things seemed [00:17:00] good. We fought sometimes, got some fur babies, agreed not to have kids for a while, and were genuinely happy.

Through my job, I learned to really come outta my shell. I became more comfortable with confrontation, with standing up for myself. I grew as a person and learned to handle situations and people better. As I promoted and took more training with my department, I honed some amazing clinical skills such as active listening, deescalation, and crisis response.

I learned how to teach mental health classes like anger management, identifying implicit bias in communication.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow, that's awesome, man. I love when cops take a real interest in this kind of stuff. I think it's a game changer for the job and just, yeah, so important.

Gabriel Mizrahi: As I learned these skills and taught this material, I applied it to my life at home.

After all, if learning to be a great listener helps me get my job done, it should be able to help me at home too. Right? Let me guess. The problem is that my wife had a troubled past rife with abuse, trauma, sexual assault, [00:18:00] and more.

Jordan Harbinger: Uh, okay. I'm sorry to hear that. That's really sad.

Gabriel Mizrahi: She shared many stories with me and I was sad to hear them and did my best to help her with her healing process, but it wasn't good enough.

As I started to gain more self-awareness, I realized that the way she treated me could be condescending, passive aggressive, and downright toxic. I started to notice that her stubbornness wasn't just an occasional trait, but a red flag that she is a narcissist. I learned slowly with the help of a therapist, how do identify what she was doing, that trauma and woundedness that it came from, and ways that I could try to increase her self-awareness so that she could see what she was doing and address it.

Jordan Harbinger: Interesting. It sounds like he was doing a lot of work here for both of them. I wonder what she was doing though, if anything.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Alas, it was to no avail. For the past five years, nothing seems to work. She still seems to treat me the same way, with the same frequency, the same things still trigger her, such as standing up for myself or disagreeing with her even [00:19:00] slightly

Jordan Harbinger: uhhuh.

Yeah, those are very concerning triggers, so it's not when he snaps. Or ignores her or talks in a certain way. It's just something else completely innocuous,

Gabriel Mizrahi: just differs or asserts himself in a very basic way. Concerning,

Jordan Harbinger: yeah. How do you have a well-functioning relationship with somebody who views something as basic as that, as some kind of trigger?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Really tough. So he goes on, even though I can explain to her that she has an all or nothing mindset is catastrophizing, jumps to conclusions, all cognitive errors. For those who don't know, it seems like she never learns or tries to manage her behaviors in the moment. I can see some progress from when we got married, but she's plateaued for some years now and there doesn't seem to be any way to move forward.

Jordan Harbinger: All cognitive errors,

Gabriel Mizrahi: huh? Hmm. Interesting. It's almost understating what she is dealing with, it sounds like, but Yeah, exactly. Okay. She had a therapist, but I could never tell if he actually helped. We tried marital counseling once. She actively resisted going at first, [00:20:00] and then it was a passive resistance.

She does that with a lot of things actually. She'll make a social plan and then decide that she doesn't want to go or claim an illness or medical procedure as an excuse to get out of it when the reality is she didn't want to. I've seen her do this enough times to know that it's not always true. Here's the real problem I'm currently dealing with.

Jordan Harbinger: Wait, we haven't even gotten to the real problem. These all sound like pretty real problems so far.

Gabriel Mizrahi: She literally lives in our bedroom, in our apartment. She never leaves except to shower. Use the bathroom or go to medical appointments. She claims to wanna train for various races, but really she's interested in making it look like she's training to the outside world.

And she even tries to fool me by claiming she was exercising. I know where the workout equipment is in the house, and I know it hasn't been touched. I feel duped, ashamed and hurt. I work full-time. I take care of all of our pets. I do the laundry and the dishes. I bring her every meal she eats. Sometimes I cook.

Sometimes it's delivery. I try to [00:21:00] keep up with the house cleaning, but she also demands my attention to the point that I have trouble keeping up with all of the basic chores while she does nothing to contribute.

Jordan Harbinger: Ugh, this is not good. Not cool at all.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm also starting to suspect that the amount of ordering out for food and purchasing things on Amazon is less about what she wants and more about making sure that I am drained of resources financially.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. Interesting theory and crazy of true, but I don't know. That seems unlikely somehow.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That would be a very inefficient way to do that. I'm gonna bankrupt you one DoorDash pad Tai at a time.

Jordan Harbinger: Fair pad. Ty on DoorDash is like $72.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's true. They get you with the fees, you know?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Oh, there's a delivery fee and there's also a Dasher fee and also the price is doubled 'cause it's on DoorDash and.

Something, mileage something and then they're like, you saved $48 by having a dash pass. And you're like, uh, this better be some good ass pad tie, man. Alright. Financial ruin by a thousand post made chicken piccata. Fine if this is really what she's doing. Maybe [00:22:00] she do it by buying furniture or gambling or something, I don't know is what?

Right.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But also, why would she want him to be ruined financially? I'm not sure I understand.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I don't know. He's supporting her. Right. So I, I don't really follow

Gabriel Mizrahi: this might say more about where he is with her than it does about her true intention. That's my feeling.

Jordan Harbinger: I think so. Well he feels she has it out for him and maybe there, who knows, we're not even at the end of the letter.

There could be more.

Gabriel Mizrahi: She constantly demands that I sit with her and watch her videos that I kaulu with her. D Lulu.

Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm. Excellent use of that phrase. Thank you for bringing that back.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I have no space to express my own wants and interests. Even our going to sleep routine feels like a chore that is meant to leave me sleep deprived as every time I get up to pee that resets the routine in her eyes.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. Was she's like a 4-year-old. This is very regressed or something. Again, I'm not convinced she's deliberately doing this to drive you insane. It sounds like she's just relying on you in a variety of ways that are very taxing, but it also sounds very childish. Junie is three. She doesn't do any of this.[00:23:00]

Gabriel Mizrahi: There are days when I don't even wanna play my own single player video game because she'll hijack it. Literally take the controller from my hand and play it herself the way she wants to, and completely ignore any input I have about how I want my own character to develop. Or how I want the game to go, even when I'm in control, if she's not sufficiently distracted, she will tell me what choices to make in my own game and become angry if I make my own choices instead of hers.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Okay. So this is either a completely irrelevant anecdote or the perfect metaphor for what's going on in their marriage,

Gabriel Mizrahi: truly.

Jordan Harbinger: So he's trying to develop and make his own choices about the direction of his life, and she's like, no, I'm gonna do that for you. I don't want your input about it at all, and if you don't do what I want, I'm gonna get mad at you.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's also interesting that I imagine video games are his escape hatch from all of this, and I wonder if she senses that and wants to be part of it, wants to keep him close or not allow him to escape for a little bit.

Jordan Harbinger: That's for sure. Part of it either way. Fascinating that his PlayStation is another battlefield in their marriage.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I've tried [00:24:00] resisting this and it causes a strain and adds to her anxiety until she eventually blows up at me. And her explosion is toxic and destructive. Most people juggle kids and kids activities with their own hobbies, but me. I juggle spending time with my wife and cleaning the house and having my own agency wants and needs.

There are times when I feel more like a single dad than a husband, and that's not right either.

Jordan Harbinger: Oof. This is a nightmare. Single dad. But they don't have kids. He means a dad of her.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No, she's his kid. Yes. Oh, yuck. She's manipulative. She has mental health issues. She's physically disabled. And while I know she's capable of getting outta bed and caring for herself, I can see her manipulating the story to make others believe that she can't

Jordan Harbinger: wait.

She's physically disabled. He has he said that yet? Did I just miss all that? No. Okay.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No, he's just mentioning that now.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, okay. Wow. So she has some real physical challenges, but. We don't know what that means. We don't know if she's in a wheelchair or if she has like [00:25:00] fibromyalgia or she just gets sore from all the lying around in bed or whatever.

I don't know.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hard to say. I feel like if she were in a wheelchair or something, he would've mentioned that I imagine sooner.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, because she's trying to train for races, but not really. So like you can clearly, you can walk or run.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. So it can't be that severe and this lifestyle can't be doing her any favors, whatever it is.

And she held down a job, so yeah, she can't be bedridden or whatever completely. So he goes on. I've reached out to my own attorney already, both for divorce and for breaking our lease. I'm starting to make plans and acquire resources, and I have a good support system. Then several days ago, my wife was going through my phone and discovered a text message in which I had complained to a friend about some major financial issues that involved my wife.

And while I had already discussed those with her, I was talking to said friend to get advice. My wife did not have a specific reason to go through my phone. I was half asleep when it happened, but became alert when she started questioning [00:26:00] me. And the conversation changed to things like, how could I quote, betray her trust by going behind her back, which then turned into a conversation about, do you even love me anymore?

Jordan Harbinger: Amazing. I snooped through your phone without your permission, with absolutely no reason to be suspicious. And as I was reading your personal communication, I discovered you were talking about something legitimate with a friend of yours that you had already discussed with me, and that is a huge breach of my trust.

Ridiculous. She is absolutely out of her tree. You're right, she's a narcissist. But she also just sounds like a, a annoying pain in the ass.

Gabriel Mizrahi: After a few more questions, I realized that the cat was outta the bag and there was no point in trying to pretend that I wasn't done with our marriage. So I admitted as much and told her of my intent to divorce.

She said she wanted to do a trial separation first, where we acted like roommates for a while. I was scared to disagree, so I went along with the idea as I had not filed at that point, and I slept on the couch [00:27:00] after texting my mom and my friend.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, okay. So he's scared of her. I think that's a big part of this.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I think it is too. Also fascinating that she keeps picking fights and provoking him almost in a way to bring these things to a head. It makes me wonder if she also wanted it to go there in some way. We'll get back to that, I guess. That day I came home from work and went to the garage to unload the car.

When I saw a ring notification from an EMT at our door, I walked over to our unit and the EMTs told me that someone had called in a wellness check on my unit. So I let them in and learned that my wife had attempted to commit suicide. By taking too many prescription pills.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh my God, this nightmare will not end.

I wonder who called in the wellness check. So I was just wondering the same thing. Did she call that in herself for attention? That is

Gabriel Mizrahi: where my mind just went.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. I feel like a colossal POS for wondering that, but given all the facts here, it just doesn't feel outside the realm of possibility, does it?[00:28:00]

Gabriel Mizrahi: It could have been a friend or a family member, but if it were, I feel like that person would've called our friend here. Right. That's a good point. So it has to be,

Jordan Harbinger: because if she had called like her mom and said, are you gonna kill myself? It's okay. They call nine one one and then call him. They don't just call 9 1 1.

That's a really good point. I think it's possible she took the pills, called 9 1 1, then waited to see what would happen. Or like you said, called someone who doesn't know our friend here at all, just so EMTs could get there. This is so disturbing. No matter what happened there. It's actually really messy and disturbing.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I was overwhelmed and didn't say anything as they took her away. I was conflicted about wanting to help her as I always have, packing an overnight bag, her personal items, stuff like that. But I understood that I was going down the path of divorce and wanted to distance myself from her as well.

Jordan Harbinger: Totally get that man, what a horrible place to be.

After years of adapting to a spouse like this, playing along, and then to not run after her when she's being wheeled away by paramedics after trying to kill herself. What a day [00:29:00] this guy had here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: She went to the emergency room, then the ICU and is now possibly in the psychiatric ward of the hospital.

During that time, she called me excessively 53 calls in a 24 hour period and left 10 voicemails and countless text messages. During that time, she also called my mom, several of my cousins, my coworker at work and my friend. She left many long messages that were very emotional and delusional, and she also made some implicit and explicit threats.

I identified four threats that I used to generate an order of protection, and there were many more after that. I spoke to her mom afterwards and was somewhat understanding that my wife is going through the biggest breakup of her life and the one person she would normally lean on in times of stress, like this is the person who initiated it.

Jordan Harbinger: Dude. Wow. I gotta, okay, I gotta

Gabriel Mizrahi: hold off. Yeah. You're overwhelmed. Yeah. There's so much going on here. This is crazy. You look like Aaron in the paper goods shop right now. We're gonna get there. [00:30:00] I know. It's a lot. This is a well organized collection of pure

Jordan Harbinger: chaos in life. Drama. My goodness.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I have since filed for divorce.

The calls have stopped, and while I don't believe that I'm in danger anymore, I think she's calmed down and I don't believe she'll try to hurt me or destroy my property. I'm also worried that she will try to manipulate or control me if I don't follow through with this order of protection and allow her back in.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, yes,

Gabriel Mizrahi: definitely. I wanna be a reasonable person. I wanna make sure that she has an opportunity to get her stuff back. But now that I have this order of protection, I'm not sure how to make sure she knows where to get it. I have a secure place. I can leave her stuff for her without her contacting or running into me, and the landlord might help her with access if she just asks.

Since she moved out and was discharged from the hospital, none of her friends and family have contacted me. No one's contacted me to yell at me or call me me names and tell me how terrible I am. But at the same time, no one's trying to be my friend either. Yeah, that's good

Jordan Harbinger: news, man. You know that, right?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. I think we just [00:31:00] got a little glimpse into some of his big fears there about being judged.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Ugh. This is so fascinating. I'm getting the sense that that anxiety has made it very hard for him to protect himself.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Do I owe anything to my ex? Do I have any legal obligations to make sure that there is an avenue for her to reclaim her possessions, even though I am the one who filed the order of protection?

Am I allowed to notify her of basic procedural or logistical things? How do I protect myself from someone I know will lie and who has a questionable relationship with reality? Signed an exhausted cop wondering whether to talk after he finally hopped

Jordan Harbinger: bru. What a ride, man. I don't even know if it's the craziest letter we've got on the show, of course, but this is up there with some of the toughest situations we've heard for sure.

Just this feeling of being manipulated and trapped and being married to somebody this compromised, not knowing how to change things or leave. I really feel for this guy. Okay, I wanna start by saying that despite how unstable his ex is, I think it's fair to [00:32:00] say that this person has not taken care of herself the way that she needs to given her.

Challenges despite all that, of course, my heart does go out to this woman a little bit. This is not just lip service because I'm on his side. I genuinely mean this. You don't behave like this and hole up in your bedroom and pretend you're a fricking triathlete even though you've got all these issues when you're a delusional, aggressive, manipulative, agoraphobic mess.

You just, you don't do that unless you have some serious trauma. So this woman, she needs help. She deserves help. I sincerely hope she gets help. There's obviously a worrisome personality disorder of some kind going on here, and if we could talk to her ourselves, I'm sure we'd hear some very good reasons for why she is the way she is, starting with these narcissistic parents and the history of severe abuse.

I'm sure. And it just, it sucks that she's in this much pain.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It is so heartbreaking, but I see where you're going with this qualifier. Complete.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. Gra knock.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Carry on. Because

Jordan Harbinger: that said, what she has [00:33:00] done, how she has shown up in their marriage, how she's treated our friend here, the way she called his friends and associates, and how she compromised not just his personal relationships and his mental health, but his career with all these weird phone calls.

How she's avoided taking care of herself in a way that would've allowed her to be a relatively healthy spouse and friend and human being that is just not okay. It's not, that's all there is to it. It's not okay to her. It's not okay to him. It's not okay to her parents, her family. She's in a lot of pain, and as we often talk about, that might not be her fault.

But it is her responsibility to address, and if she had all these problems and was in therapy three times a week and exercising and trying to understand herself better, my feelings would just be very different here. She just had like a breakdown one day and it's, oh my gosh, the medication stopped working, or, you know, whatever.

But that's not what we're dealing with here. So it breaks my heart that she felt that the only option was suicide. That is tragic. If she had succeeded, it's a very sad timeline, but the fact that it wasn't [00:34:00] successful, that it ended up possibly landing her in a psychiatric hospital, I don't know if that's entirely a bad thing.

I think it might be time for that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No, I don't either. In fact, that might have been inadvertently what she wanted or maybe not so inadvertently, I don't know. Especially given that she probably called the police herself, or at least this was what she was creating. Right. A situation where this suicide attempt would force people to pay attention to her in a different way.

And where she might be brought to a point where she would have to deal with this stuff in a more urgent way, unless it was all just a cry for help and there was no plan.

Jordan Harbinger: Sadly, I don't have the highest hopes of a short hospital stay meaningfully helping someone like this long term. But yeah, maybe it was a wake up call.

Maybe it inspires her family to step in if they're willing to do that,

Gabriel Mizrahi: or maybe she realizes that she really is on her own now and she needs to step up for herself.

Jordan Harbinger: Whatever the upshot is, it's gotta be better than whatever was happening before, which is hiding, lying, being protected slash enabled by your spouse,

Gabriel Mizrahi: which clearly was not working at all.

Jordan Harbinger: No. And zooming way out since the suicide attempt, it sounds like things have [00:35:00] gotten much better for him anyway. She's not contacting him. The family's not contacting him. I do wonder if this whole climactic end to their marriage was the fissure that they all needed. It's painful for sure, but maybe she and her family are on one path and he's on another path and given everything he shared, that sounds like progress to me.

So to answer your questions, I feel you owe very little to your ex at this point next to nothing. Honestly, you don't have kids. There's not this sort of fragile, delicate balance here in the mix. It sounds to me like you've done a lot over a long period of time to accommodate her various struggles, to give her plenty of leeway, arguably too much leeway.

And I just don't know what else you're supposed to do or what else you can do. If anything, I feel she owes you something, starting with a massive apology. Not that she's necessarily gonna do that or that you need it to move forward, but my God, dude, the thing she's done to you, the idea that you might owe her something at this point, it's just, it's a little surprising to me,

Gabriel Mizrahi: honestly.

Yes and [00:36:00] no. Right? He still feels connected to her. They were married. The separation is still very fresh. I get the sense that he feels very obligated to her and maybe to other people. It might be part of his deep interest in psychology and what he's brought to his job as a cop, and therefore he probably feels guilty for quote unquote abandoning her when she was in serious trouble, not stepping in, like you said, Jordan, not saving her in this extreme moment where she was almost about to die, not supporting her even being in touch anymore.

That is such a different way of operating with this person who has dominated his life. It just must bring up a lot of anxiety for him.

Jordan Harbinger: Am I failing her? Am I okay if I don't save her? Am I a bad guy?

Gabriel Mizrahi: That very sense of responsibility. That is his part of this, right? They fell into a kind of codependency and a kind of collusion to keep her safe, and I'm sure that's what he's now starting to look at.

But it comes with some difficult feelings, for sure.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Very hard to untangle. Very hard to rewrite. But man, how liberating this must be. [00:37:00] But also, you do not owe your ex anything from a legal standpoint either. I can't give you legal advice, obviously, I'm not your lawyer, but this order of protection, it's in place for a reason.

You sought that out in a moment of clarity. Good for you, by the way, and you got it. So you could extricate yourself from a dangerous situation. You

Gabriel Mizrahi: do not

Jordan Harbinger: want to

Gabriel Mizrahi: chip

Jordan Harbinger: away at that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No, you do not. And we ran this question by attorney Corbin Payne, and he pointed out that if you're saying you needed this protection from her, and then you turn around and you text her even about something innocuous like here, you can pick up your stuff at 3:00 PM you would be demonstrating that the reason for the order of protection is either flawed or it doesn't exist, and that is going to send mixed signals to a judge and it's gonna send mixed signals to her.

Corbin also told us, by the way, that most order of protection processes, they have a way for an ex-partner to request a time and a way to get their belongings back through the court. So once your ex does that, the court with input from you. Can establish a day and a time for her to get her stuff. And the judge can also add in some protections for [00:38:00] you, like police presence, a cop standing by, so nothing dangerous happens.

Jordan Harbinger: Good info. Also, Corbin said your attorney can write her a letter offering her a date and time to get her things along with any information she'll need for logistical purposes. You want all communication to be between her and the attorney, which makes it all part of the regular communications between parties that occur pursuant to a legal case that's gonna keep everything above board from the court's perspective, and that's gonna allow things to move forward within the bounds of the order of protection.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It also maintains a precedent for your ex about how communication will occur from now on, and I think that is also super important.

Jordan Harbinger: No, do not contact her. Stay away. Honor the agreement.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You know, the only thing I would say he might owe her is some basic kindness and compassion, but from a distance. And that might include finding one person in her life.

Maybe it's her mom or her dad, or a sibling, or maybe it's a friend if she has one. Who can step in and be the point person for her now, you know, somebody who can coordinate with her about the logistics, maybe talk to the lawyer if she doesn't want [00:39:00] to, somebody who can just keep an eye on her, maybe help her get into some kind of treatment.

But that's it. I have a very close friend, Jordan, who I think like 20 years ago, dated a woman who was very similar to the woman in this story, very unstable in a lot of pain, struggling in a lot of ways. And she actually ended up also trying to commit suicide, extremely sad and dark story. And at a certain point, he just had to separate from her and it was a very painful day.

And basically he called her parents and had the parents waiting outside and he broke up with her and then said, now your parents are here and they're gonna take you from now on. And this person had to get into treatment and stuff. She was so angry at him and was embarrassed and it was a whole thing.

But sometimes you just need somebody more appropriate to take care of somebody. So they're not just alone. And if you can't find that person. I don't think you would be doing anything wrong. It's just a nice last thing to do to make sure she's not completely alone right now, and maybe to take some of the weight off of yourself.

But honestly, just given the facts here and the order of [00:40:00] protection, if you don't do that, I would not blame you and I don't think you'd be doing anything wrong.

Jordan Harbinger: Agreed completely. That's really the only reliable way to protect yourself from somebody you know will lie, who has a questionable relationship with reality.

There is no safe or smart relationship with a person like this. She's very compromised. She's very raw. She's not in therapy. There's just too much risk right now. So my strong advice to you is give yourself some time, a few weeks at least, to settle into this new reality. You have been through a lot in this relationship, a lot.

You need to give your mind and your body some time to ease into this new phase with these new rules. You need to give yourself the opportunity to experience this newfound peace, which probably won't feel entirely like peace at first, but is clearly already more peaceful. You need to realize that the sky isn't gonna fall if you don't step in.

I think in two, three weeks a month, you'll see things in a whole new way.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Let's also remember that our friend here is a police officer, right? Quite a good one. From the [00:41:00] sound of it, we're hearing from a guy who has a very strong sense of responsibility, like I said, a real desire to protect people, to understand them, and that includes caring for people psychologically, but this is a very taxing job, right?

Being a cop takes a toll on you, and he's been doing that job and then coming home and having to stabilize and shore up this very compromised partner and deal with her reality, which has its own logic and rules and difficult needs, and then he has to run their entire life for them with zero help. Man, this guy is like, how is he even still standing?

I don't understand.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, good point. I don't know if I even realized how brutal this must have been for him.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Extremely intense. I think it's safe to say that he probably has some trauma himself from the situation. So what you just said is really important, Jordan, to give himself time to step into this new life.

Without having to be on call for somebody else, but more than that, to really rack focus from a partner to himself. I think he has to come first. Now he has some healing really, [00:42:00] and some work to do

Jordan Harbinger: again. I agree, and I think that's gonna bring up a lot of feelings and a lot of questions for him. Who is he when he is not propping his wife up?

When he lets her go her own way and take care of herself or allows her to struggle?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, that's gonna be a huge one.

Jordan Harbinger: How does he spend his free time when he is not attached to her? I'm curious, you know, what thoughts come up? What other opportunities become possible? How does he function at work and with his friends?

These are all really important questions. So to state the obvious, my guy, take good care of yourself. Do the forensics on this relationship. Stick with therapy. I'm glad you're there. Get clear on your role in all this. Why you chose a partner like this in the first place. How you showed up for her along the way, how you ended up here.

I think all of that's gonna be tough work, but it's so important and I know your training will also serve you well there and start to look forward and build a new phase of your life. Man, I'm sending you a big hug, dude. Honestly, I'm sending your ex-wife one too poor thing. Despite everything we said, she's really going through it and I just, I pray that this is part of her path toward getting better and we're wishing you [00:43:00] all the best.

Whew, man. Now while I call in a wellness check on myself after that doozy of a letter, please enjoy some deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Aura Frame. You ever get a G that you later realize you use constantly?

Aura Frame is a gem that always ends up being a favorite gift. Maybe there's a new baby in the family or an in-law you're trying to impress. Aura is that gift. What I love is how amazingly simple it is. You download the Aura app, connect the frame to wifi, and you can add unlimited photos and videos. And here's the power move.

You can preload the frame before it ships, so when they unbox it, boom, it's already filled with memories. You can even add a personalized message so it feels thoughtful right out of the gate, and once it's in their house, you can keep adding photos anytime from anywhere. Vacation picks, goofy kid moments, random moments.

It all shows up instantly. Plus the frame comes in this really nice gift box. If you want a guaranteed winner gift, something that feels personal, modern, and actually gets used, don't wait. Win the [00:44:00] holidays now with Aura Frames

Jen Harbinger: for a limited time. Save on the perfect gift by visiting aura frames.com to get $35 off.

Aura's bestselling Carver mat frames name number one by Wirecutter by using promo code Jordan at checkout. That's a URA frames.com promo code Jordan. This deal is exclusive to listeners and frames sell out fast. So order yours now to get it in on time for the holidays and support the show by mentioning us at checkout.

Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by BetterHelp. The holidays are built on traditions, but the older I get, the more I realize you can rewrite them. Every year we take the kids to the Christmas tree farm after Thanksgiving and pick out and chop down our own tree. I've also been thinking about traditions that aren't just festive ones that actually take care of you because as great as this season is, it can also be stressful or even lonely, and it might sound unconventional, but therapy can be a really meaningful new tradition, a way to get some clarity when everything feels chaotic.

BetterHelp makes the whole process incredibly easy. All their therapists are fully licensed in the US and follow a strict code of ethics. You just fill out a quick questionnaire, you get paired with a therapist, and if [00:45:00] it's not the perfect fit. Switching is simple. With over 30,000 therapists and more than 5 million people served, plus an average live session rating of 4.9 outta five from 1.7 million reviews, the platform really speaks for itself.

Jen Harbinger: This December, start a new tradition by taking care of you. Our listeners get 10% off at BetterHelp dot com slash Jordan. That's better hlp.com/jordan.

Jordan Harbinger: Thank you for listening to and supporting the show. All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the podcast and keep the lights on around here are searchable and clickable on the website at Jordan harbinger.com/deals.

Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now back to feedback Friday. Okay, what's next?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, three months ago I lost my job at a large retail company. Let's call it Company One. This was actually my third run with Company One. I worked for them for three years, went to a different company for a year, then came back to Company one for another three years.

I was then laid off in a [00:46:00] massive company wide layoff, so I went to work for a consulting firm for two years. They let me go because they no longer needed my position, and there was nowhere else for me to fit in in the company at the time, and I ended up back at Company One for a year and a half. I feel that my latest termination from Company One was an unfair decision related to some poor choices in my personal life.

Two years ago, an ex-girlfriend and I broke up. I did not take it well and was very emotionally immature. She made it very clear that she wanted nothing to do with me, but I was tragically sure that I could convince her. Otherwise I didn't stalk her or threaten her. I just didn't listen to her when she told me to stay away.

Jordan Harbinger: Wait, that's kind of funny. I didn't stalk her. I just didn't listen when she said to stop showing up at her house all the time,

Gabriel Mizrahi: your Honor, I didn't murder this person. I just didn't stop stabbing him when he told me to stop

Jordan Harbinger: this guy sounds like he's taking ownership of this and he is not a total monster.

He is probably just insisting and sent the wrong signals, but I had to comment, come on. [00:47:00]

Gabriel Mizrahi: So I tried to contact her too much, and one of those times was to drop off a sympathy card. When her grandma passed away, she pressed trespass charges against me. I got the conviction, followed all of the court's orders, paid my fines, et cetera, and never went near or around her again.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay, so yeah, you made a mistake. She got scared, which is totally understandable. And you've grown a lot since then. Definitely not a psycho or anything.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Fast forward to this past summer, I got a promotion, but the offer was rescinded when they ran a background check. Once it came out that I had a misdemeanor record, company one terminated me because they have a policy that if you get convicted of anything, even misdemeanors, you're supposed to tell your manager.

I had no idea that was a policy and neither did my director or anyone else I know who works there. Nonetheless, they considered it gross misconduct. They ultimately reduced it to a simple policy violation and terminated me, but marked me as rehire. Since then, after applying to 150 jobs, I finally got a [00:48:00] job offer at a place we'll call company two.

It's good pay and a good opportunity, but it's only a six month contract. They've been transparent that there's no guarantee of any other opportunities within the company and it is not attempt to hire contract. Now, I've just been asked to interview for a role with Company One again. This would be a permanent role with a starting salary, about $10,000 more than company two benefits and bonus, et cetera.

But if Company One makes me an offer, it would overlap with my start date at company two, and it will definitely leave a bad taste in Company Two's mouth if I bounce after only a few weeks, but I'm torn. I don't want to be unemployed and looking again in six months and with a short term job on my resume to boot, which never looks good.

But I also wanna keep my word and not jump ship for something that looks better. I think that would compromise my reputation. Should I maintain my integrity, stick with company two and hope for the best. Or should I leave company two high and dry and follow the [00:49:00] long-term money by exploring this role at Company One Signed going back to the well after going through Job hell, but can't tell if it's the death nail of this.

Need to dwell at a place where things did not go well.

Jordan Harbinger: Interesting conundrum. Do you prioritize yourself or an employer? Do you lead with healthy self-interest or integrity? What does integrity look like in a situation like this? It's kind of a tough one actually. We wanted to run all this by an expert.

So we reached out to Joanna Tate, friend of the show and HR professional for over 20 years, and the first thing Joanna said was, it takes humility to own past mistakes and learn from them. And you're definitely doing that. You're also considering integrity in your decision, which told her that you're approaching this with the right mindset.

So Joanna's general take was you're in a situation without a clear solution and you're gonna have to choose between different risks and figure out how you manage them. Either way, you gain something and you give something up and that's life.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I also wanna remind us, you don't have a [00:50:00] firm offer from company one, right?

You have an invitation to interview, and that is far from a done deal. Plus there's this hiccup with a background check. I don't know how that's gonna play into all this. So we're not talking about accepting offer one or accepting offer two, we're talking about. Potentially turning down very solid, offer one in order to explore the possibility of maybe getting an offer.

Two for what is ultimately just a little more money.

Jordan Harbinger: There's a part of me going, are we jumping the gun here A little either in getting excited prematurely or in treating these as equally real possibilities, but that's for him to figure out. So Joanna had an interesting question for you. You've gone to company one three times now, the first time you left on your own.

So why? What were you looking for that you didn't find at that place? In her view, the answer to that question is important because it might help you see what keeps you coming back. Is it the familiarity, the people, the benefits, just some comfort level. It might also remind you about why you left or what became possible when you were let go.

Is it a [00:51:00] new challenge, new relationships, freedom from this employer, distance from the legal snafu? I'd start there. Now about being laid off. Joanna also pointed out that being laid off, that probably shook your confidence in any company's stability. Even when Company One brought you back, they later fired you due to that policy violation.

So even if you're eligible for rehire, there's still some uncomfortable history there. So Joanna's recommendation, if you do end up going back, ask yourself, can you truly build a clean slate and rebuild your reputation there? And are you okay taking a short-term hit to your reputation and credibility if you back out of Company Two's offer?

Joanna's honest take was your relationship with Company One has been tumultuous to quote her here, it's like getting back together with an ex and your friends. Keep wondering why your ex is familiar, but the whole thing is complicated, which kind of made me chuckle, but it's a good analogy. Maybe there's still a good reason to go back there.

Maybe there's not. What matters most in Joanna's view is knowing what you want from Company One this time and [00:52:00] understanding how things will be different now

Gabriel Mizrahi: other than the money, of course. And look, if you end up getting an offer at Company One and you decide not to join Company two, or you bounce after a few weeks, Joanna's strong advice to you is do it as soon as possible.

Be sure to handle this with absolute transparency if the offer somehow comes before you begin a company two, which sounds like it probably won't, but if it does. She would recommend telling your employer unexpectedly, I've been offered a long-term position that aligns better with my career goals. I didn't plan this, but I need to make the best long-term decision in her view.

That's honest, that is professional, and maybe that's the version of integrity that you can live with. Maybe that's the way to protect yourself and do what's right or minimize as much of the bad as possible without acting like a jerk and damaging your reputation completely. On the other hand, if you do start with company two, that's six months of guaranteed income.

It's new experience, and it's a chance to rebuild your credibility at a new place. So even if it's short term, [00:53:00] Joanna said that it shows reliability, it keeps your momentum going. It's a new chapter.

Jordan Harbinger: Joanna also pointed out that no promise of continuation, that doesn't mean zero chance businesses evolve.

New roles emerge. Exceptional work often generates new opportunities. Happens all the time, especially if you crush it. So the best thing you can do when you get there, keep building your relationships, keep your resume active. Note that you're in a contract position. Joanna said that makes short-term positions perfectly understandable.

If you do start the contract, Joanna's advice is finish it. Don't leave early unless something absolutely life-changing lands in your lap. Like you get an offer from Google with a huge base salary and a frigging Ferrari. 'cause you know that happens all the time, right? Even then, communicate honestly and as quickly as possible and finally.

Make your decision based on the best place for you to grow, not based on your fear, and choose the most mutually beneficial place. So if you're considering staying at company one for a year and then leaving again, that's just exhausting first of all. But more importantly, if you keep your commitment with company [00:54:00] two, you'll start a new network.

You'll possibly open new doors, and most importantly, you might be able to leave the past behind you. And I do wonder if that's the most important theme in your letter here. The choice behind the choice and the promise of a new opportunity. It's hard to put a price on creating a new chapter and opening yourself up to fresh experiences.

And even if you leave company two, after six months, you can still be positioned well to do something great and to not keep going back to this one well over and over again.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think Joanna's right, that there's something about Company One that is very compelling to him, and I'm not entirely clear on what that is.

This would be his fourth time working there. So either this place, like you said, Jordan represents some comfort to him or some safety. Or, and I'm gonna speculate a little bit, hear me out. Would going back to company one after what went down with the whole background check thing, would that maybe allow him to prove something to them or to himself?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Interesting. Maybe there's a wound there and if he can get another offer and come back and do [00:55:00] well, it would make him feel better about what happened. Yes. I also wonder, and now I'm gonna speculate, I'll let our friend here decide if this fits. Is there an element of I can make this work, I can get him to like me.

It's kinda like trying to get back with your ex-girlfriend, like can it be done? And then you do it and

Gabriel Mizrahi: you're like, oh, interesting. You're getting it. Is there some parallel with this incident with the ex in the work? Wow,

Jordan Harbinger: I didn't even put that together with the actual ex. I just made it. I meant the analogy, but you're, that's what you meant.

Yeah. Yeah. No, you're onto something too here. Right. It might be unfair to draw a parallel between these two things when he is clearly come a very long way since then. But to your point, Gabe, this is not a firm offer yet. It's just the possibility of getting a job there again. And yes, the money and the benefits, of course, that's making him wonder if he should compromise his reputation to get it back.

So it must mean that it's very valuable to him. You're right. Is there a little parallel here with the previous situation he mentioned at the top of the episode? I don't know.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't know. Is this the condolence card after grandma died, but in his professional life? So the best question he could be asking is what exactly is so compelling and [00:56:00] so valuable about going back to company one?

Given everything that went down.

Jordan Harbinger: So, hey, I hope that helps, man. Good luck. We're rooting for you. You can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Keep your emails concise, use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're finding dead squirrels in your mailbox, your stepdad's got your nudes, your neighbors are eves dropping on your therapy sessions through the wall, or you're being hunted by a former business partner who's launched a years long smear campaign to destroy you, whatever's got you staying up at night lately.

Hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. By the way, if you haven't signed up yet, come check out our newsletter, wee bit wiser. It is a bite-sized gem from a past episode from us to you delivered to your inbox on most Wednesdays. If you want to keep up with the wisdom from our thousand plus episodes and apply it to your life, I invite you to come check it out.

You can sign up at Jordan harbinger.com/news. Alright,

Gabriel Mizrahi: what's next? Dear Comrades, Jordan and Gabriel.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I feel like I'm back in North Korea. Totally. I just had the same thought. [00:57:00] Exactly. Hippie. Yeah. Is this racist? What we're doing? I can't tell.

Jordan Harbinger: You know, I am on the fence myself, but anyway, let's move

Gabriel Mizrahi: along.

That's literally what they would call us every morning in North Korea, so I just, it's an impression is what it is. Don and Dong, I think, is comrade in Korea. I'm really struggling right now with what's going on in our country. While I'm definitely leftist and can't stand Donald Trump, I also like to think of myself as a reasonable, practical person who can parse fact from propaganda.

I'm a licensed structural engineer and a man of science facts, et cetera. While I'm over here trying to convince my wife, we need to leave the country to escape the forthcoming fascist takeover, she just tells me to stop listening to podcasts and looking at social media. I would usually agree, but I feel like this moment is different.

But then it seems that everybody's biased. Who do you look to for guidance on whether we should be worried right now? Do you have any smart, well-informed guests or potential guests who could [00:58:00] provide insight signed frightened in Florida, and fixing to find a fountain of foresight in these befuddling times?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, good question. So first of all, I wanna appreciate the mindset you're bringing to all this. Wanting to be rational, wanting to stay open to different sources, knowing your political biases, but still being just contrarian enough to go a different way if slash when our country takes a concerning turn without running around like chicken little, you know, the sky is falling, which is I think how most media left and right by the way, kind of talks about the world.

Which, that's a whole other topic, but that's how the media operates, right? It's designed to whip you up and represent extreme viewpoints and indulge worst case scenarios. And I think it's really important to not get swept up in that media that's reasonable and balanced. Doesn't do as well in this culture.

That would be boring and boring. Doesn't sell anxiety medication and cash for gold programs and limited edition mint coins or whatever that are selling

Gabriel Mizrahi: on tv. I really wish you wouldn't knock my hobbies like that, but, okay,

Jordan Harbinger: go on. Yeah, sorry, it's cutting too close to the bone. But look, does that mean there aren't truly concerning [00:59:00] things happening these days?

Does that mean we aren't at a crossroads as a country? Definitely not. I'm not saying you're totally off here. What's happening in the world in this country? There's plenty to be concerned about no matter how you vote, but I still think it's our responsibility to not engage with information in a way that activates us too much in a way that leads us to make rash choices, fear-based choices.

I know it's easier said than done, but you gotta be very disciplined about what you consume, how often why, what you do with that information. Otherwise, you could be buying a doomsday bunker in the woods or liquidating your 401k to buy precious metals or uprooting your life and moving to frigging New Zealand without really thinking it through.

I think you and your wife have some fair points here. I think you guys could really balance each other out because the answer is somewhere between your two positions, and that's very useful to have both lenses on the world. Also, the one thing your wife is a hundred percent right about is social media.

No doubt about it. That just amplifies the worst about our culture, so I would definitely keep an [01:00:00] eye on your relationship with that. And again, left or right X in TikTok and all that. They, that'll just do a number on you. So rather than rattle off a list of people I would listen to, I think you can find those people easily enough for yourself.

I, I'll just share my quick thoughts on this. First off, if you wanna get the most accurate read on things right now, there are a few things you can do. You can seek out a diversity of opinions. You can consume media from right and left and everything in between. You can see what picture of the world emerges.

You can seek out true independence. People whose values and arguments are not as tribal, or at least not as conventional and kneejerk in their ideology. See if that gives you a better grasp of things. This is my personal preference, just because I find it more interesting and smarter. But I also do the first thing too.

The other thing I would do is I would make some time to read or listen to more history, whether it's a great biography or a podcast or study of a certain time, especially for you earlier periods in American history. I find that's generally way more insightful and interesting than [01:01:00] listening to the Daily or the National Review every day.

It's not that there aren't smart people weighing in on what's happening in our world today. There are, but it's hard actually, I would say, kind of impossible for people to truly understand the current moment while we are living through it. Whereas history shows us the larger patterns that our species goes through again and again.

The goals we chase as a civilization, the mistakes we tend to make, the structures we build, the structures that fail, why they fail, how different strands of society respond. Things are just rocky when they become a true crisis. All of that. Even how people recover and even thrive after a crisis, you're not gonna get that from panicky cable news hosts or dude bro podcasters riffing on conspiracy theories designed to sell survivalist supply kits.

But you can get that from a great book by a true expert who spent decades of their life studying, I don't know, the Andrew Jackson presidency or the fall of the Soviet Union or whatever, and then you can take a step back and go, okay, what are the parallels here? What does that period say [01:02:00] about this one?

What would I have been worried about if I lived back then? What would I have done differently from other people? What does that teach me about the moment we're living in now? Honestly, I wish I had more time to spend with history. It's hard when you have a family and work and kids, but hey, even if you take nine months to read one great book about history, a few pages every night, that'll just get you a lot further than mainlining all these social media hits.

It's also, it's way more enriching and it's way less stressful.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, great points. Jordan. I would also say whoever you end up listening to, I would try to study the way these people think and not just what they think, because that's ultimately gonna be more helpful and it's gonna lead you to the best possible insights for yourself.

That's another thing that I really appreciate about seeking out some of those higher quality, more philosophical voices, more independent voices, because even if you disagree with them, you're still learning how they analyze information. You see how they form an argument, how they make decisions, all of that.

That is so useful.

Jordan Harbinger: I totally agree. Sam Harris is one of those guys for me, [01:03:00] whether I agree with every one of his positions or not, his logic is rigorous. His line of thinking is pretty soundproof, and that makes me a better thinker. I'm not just mainlining his conclusions, I'm absorbing his way of forming an opinion in general.

And doing that might also spark some really great conversations with your wife as well, which could bring you closer together. Instead of arguing about whether it's time to start panic Zillow off the grid cabins in Northern Saskatchewan. Love your attitude. Love your mindset. Don't panic unnecessarily, don't stress, but use that concern to fuel your curiosity and your good judgment and not just freak out.

You got this, man. Good luck. You know what you're gonna wanna bring with you when you finally flee these United States, the amazing products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Neutrophil. Jen's actually been on Neutrophil for almost a year now.

Way before Neutrophil even became a sponsor of the show. She's always had this long hair done to her back. After having the kids. She really wanted to stay ahead of that postpartum shedding, and I support her [01:04:00] overall hair health. I've genuinely seen the difference. She's super consistent, takes the recommended four pills a day with a meal.

Over time, her hair has looked thicker, healthier, she's noticed less shedding, and every time we see my mom, she goes, hold on. When did Jen's hair get that long? Neutrophil also makes an incredibly thoughtful gift, whether it's your mom, your aunt, navigating menopause, a friend dealing with postpartum, shedding your, that's the thing.

Your husband or dad who always keeps a hat nearby or honestly anyone who wants to support their hair health. It is practical, meaningful, and actually useful. Neutrophil is the number one dermatologist, recommended hair growth supplement brand trusted by over one and a half million people. Their formulas are clinically tested.

They take a proactive approach and they address multiple root causes of hair issues. And the whole line is NSF Content certified, which is basically the gold standard and third party testing, so you know exactly what you're getting.

Jen Harbinger: Give the gift of confidence this holiday season with Neu Nutriful.

Whether you're treating yourself or someone on your list, visibly healthier, thicker hair is the gift that keeps on giving. And right now, Nutriful is offering our listeners $10 off your first month subscription, plus free shipping when you go to [01:05:00] neutrophil.com and use promo code Jordan. That's nutriful.com promo code Jordan for $10 off.

Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by SimpliSafe. Quick true story. Breakins have been on the rise in our neighborhood. This always happens, especially during the holidays. We keep hearing about it from neighbors, friends, group chats, and earlier this year, our own home was broken into. You probably heard about that.

That was the moment Jen and I looked at each other and said, okay, we need to tighten up our security with extra sensors. And we did just that. SimpliSafe got live guard protection, which is proactive. Traditional systems only react after somebody's already inside your home. Terrifying SimpliSafe can actually help stop a crime before it starts.

Here's how SimpliSafe uses a double layer of defense. Their AI cameras can detect potential threats outside your home. And then real live agents actually confront the person in real time while they're still outside, before they can do any damage. The agents tell them they're on camera, and that police will be dispatched if they don't leave.

And lemme tell you, people do not stick around after that. That's why I trust SimpliSafe at our place. It's protecting the kids while they're sleeping. My studio gear, the constant flow of deliveries, basically everything that matters to us because [01:06:00] I, I know how I equate my packages from Amazon with my children, but you know what I mean?

Real security doesn't just sound an alarm after the fact. It helps deter the whole situation in the first place. And right now is a really good time to set this up. This month only you can get 50% off any new system. Just go to simplisafe.com/jordan. Again, simplisafe.com/jordan. There's no safe like SimpliSafe.

This episode is also sponsored by Quilt Mind. In today's world, people don't hire you because you're great. They hire you because they remember you're great. One way to be remarkable showing up on LinkedIn once in a while, but most of us just lurk on LinkedIn, and let's be honest, posting takes time. You sit down to write something, you blank somehow, 45 minutes disappear, and you've typed six words and deleted seven.

That's why almost nobody posts, but the people who do they look like they've got their whole professional life just buttoned up. They get the attention and the credibility. That's why Quilt Mind is so smart. You bring the ideas, they turn it into clean, sharp LinkedIn posts that sound exactly like you.

And posting is not about ego. It's about standing out in a crowded marketplace, whether you're looking for opportunities, clients, partnerships, or you just want people to take you seriously. Showing up [01:07:00] online is one of the smartest investments you can make. When I post people come out of the woodwork listeners, folks I haven't talked to in a decade, it keeps me top of mind.

That's where all the unexpected opportunities come from. And if you wanna see how I'm showing up, go find me on LinkedIn. And if you're ready to actually be consistent without losing your sanity, message me or email Jordan, audience@quiltmind.com. That's Jordan audience at Q-U-I-L-T-M-I-N d.com. If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and find our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment, support our amazing sponsors, all of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are searchable and clickable on the website at Jordan harbinger.com/deals.

If you can't find a code you're not sure if a code exists, please do email us. We would love to dig up a code for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show. Now back to feedback Friday. Now for the recommendation of the week.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So if you've been following my travels on Instagram, you know that I've had a bit of a tough time using my phone while I've been abroad.

[01:08:00] Yeah, your Vodafone saga and Portugal was truly one of the dumbest capers I've ever seen. I don't know if it was dumber than the seven 11 caper, but it was, yeah, it was a truly ridiculous, great way to practice your functional Portuguese terrible way to spend your eat, pray, love, era.

Jordan Harbinger: Eat, pray. Gabe, not off to a great start.

No, maybe don't make the Vodafone tour the first chapter of your memoir. Just a gentle

Gabriel Mizrahi: suggestion. It was like if you moved to LA and then you spent your first three days seeing every at and t story east of the 4 0 5, so lame. Anyway, a bunch of you guys wrote me telling me, oh, don't go to Vodafone. Why are you doing that?

There are these EIM vendors, which are way easier than getting physical sims or even eims from a big phone company. So I finally gave one of these a try here in Japan. It's been great so far. Could not have been easier to set up. It shows you exactly how much data you've used when you need to top up. It is fairly reasonable in price, and there are a bunch of good ones out there.

There's a company called Saly. There's a company called Alo, just to name a couple of them. Dr. Margolis used [01:09:00] Saly while she was here and she said it was great. So you have a ton of options. So that's my wreck of the week, using an EIM that you can set up before you go on your trip and you can do it straight from your phone.

Kind of a game changer.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, this is a great one. Saly actually is a sponsor of ours now, just by total coincidence. Usually we don't plug sponsors and recommendation of the week. This is just stuff we love that we think you would love too. But just so happens they're a partner. I use saly. I've used it before.

It's really good. It's super easy to use. This is basically how eims on your regular phone with your phone company should work. It's almost like they want your business. Yeah, so you can get 15% off of Saly at saly.com/jordan. Harbinger Code Jordan Harbinger. That'll be linked in the show notes. Solid Rec.

Gabe. Also, in case y'all don't know there's a subreddit for the show, if there's an episode you like or you didn't like, or you want to check out that Dank meme thread. Lot of conversations happening over there, people sharing and giving advice. A lot of listeners from all over the world are in there, several thousand people.

It's actually a lot of fun. You can find that on the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. Okay,

Gabriel Mizrahi: [01:10:00] next up. Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I'm gonna be starting a new job soon and I'm hoping to put a better foot forward than I have in the past. I wanna get better at networking and being friendly with the people I work with. I'm not necessarily hoping to be friends with people in a hangout outside of the office kind of way as I'm a bit of an introvert, but not being super chatty or extroverted and just putting my head down and getting the work done doesn't lend itself to opportunities as people who are friends are more likely to be recommended for the proverbial promotion.

I also suffer in my personal life a bit. I would prefer to meet up with people and hang out, but due to busy schedules, that doesn't happen as much as I would like. So I'm more of a texter and not a phone caller. And I think the friends who prefer a phone call and I don't talk as much as we should. I'm also very awkward in a lot of conversations.

My mind often goes blank and I have nothing to say or I forget all the things to ask. I've never been that friend who people wanted to hang out with [01:11:00] one-on-one, and I've been referred to as boring in the past, which was hurtful. What can I do to have better friendly slash networking relations in this new role?

And Gabe, can I have your most creative but shortest sign off?

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. Now this is a sign off request that I can get behind. Let's see what Chef cooked up for you.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Signed help. That's it. I don't want to hear any complaining from you today. You can't. It's one word

Jordan Harbinger: she said, creative and short. You could have put in a little

Gabriel Mizrahi: effort.

Dude signed head down and not exactly renowned for being super loud.

Jordan Harbinger: See, that's nice. There's a canvas I can appreciate. Small but packed.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't know. Feels incomplete to be honest, but I guess I wanted to honor her request.

Jordan Harbinger: Sometimes less is more. Gabe, just take a note from Japan, you know? Good point.

They're all about that. Great question. Very interesting. Given your personality. I gotta say, I really appreciate how open you are to working on this. What a great attitude, Gabe. I feel like everyone [01:12:00] who wrote in today came in with a very open spirit, a lot of vulnerability in talking about their weaknesses, their mistakes.

I really appreciate that, and I know it's the first step toward creating new results. So a few thoughts. First of all, I hear you that you're a bit of an introvert or loner, and yeah, that can make socializing harder. It can require more energy. It can take time away from that precious solo recharge time.

It can force you to flex muscles you don't naturally have, but it can force you to flex muscles you haven't been forced to build. It's a lot, but I actually think that being an introvert, it's not the liability in this department that most people think it is. In fact, being an introvert or being more internal or more reserved, whatever word you want to use, that can be a huge asset in relationship building because introverts, yes, they love being alone.

They prefer small groups, but they also tend to have a greater capacity for meaningful conversations, intimate conversations, especially one-on-one. That's what leads to great connections. If you haven't listened to my episode with Susan Cain, the Hidden Power of Introverts, [01:13:00] definitely go check that out.

She's really big on tapping into the unique powers of people who aren't wired to be social butterflies.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. Great. One episode 648, by the way, if you wanna check it out,

Jordan Harbinger: I still get emails from people about that one. People write me going, thank you for this episode. I thought I'd never be able to have a bunch of friends, or I'd never thought I'd be able to lead a team at work, and this woman just made me realize I totally can, which is just so cool.

The other thing I wanna say is I know your schedules are busy. Time is precious. The older you get, the harder it is to make time for people, but we make time for the things that matter to us. It's as simple as that, and it doesn't take much. Maybe you do lunch once a week with a colleague instead of eating by yourself.

Maybe you do something after work every other week, or you invite someone along to do an activity with you and just kill two birds with one stone. I'm a big fan of that. By the way. The blending, it's efficient. It can actually bond you with somebody way more than just grabbing flat whites at Starbucks.

So invite one of your colleagues to go on that walk or do that yoga class with you, run errands with a friend. I know [01:14:00] this is such a basic piece of advice. It's so logistical, but I swear it's actually kind of profound. So let's talk about the awkwardness. I guess I wanna start by saying that so many people are awkward in social settings.

Even I am awkward in social settings sometimes. I know it's hard to believe, but I'm not a total train wreck at a party. A lot of being human is being awkward sometimes. Not always being on, not always being able to be on. And this is absolutely not fatal. This is a skill you can work on. In fact, I would argue that the ability to work with your awkwardness, that is part of the art of relationship building.

I have friends whose whole social persona is built around how weird they are or how neurotic they are, or how tactless they can be sometimes. But the key is they're aware of it and they own it, and then they can make jokes about it or they can call it out or they can play with it and then it lands. As charming or vulnerable or funny or just like self-aware, hyper self-aware.

Totally.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And that's automatically likable. So it's kind

Jordan Harbinger: of money. Yes, because they're in on the joke of themselves. You can't help but root for [01:15:00] people like that. So what's such the Big Bang theory? You know how they're all nerds and they're like weird and dorky and they wear it on their sleeve? So that's why you love the characters, right?

One of the reasons that you love the characters, they realize that they're self-deprecating. So like when you forget what to say, when you feel awkward, you hit a wall. I would literally just call it out. You know, this is funny, I'm listening way too hard to what you're saying. I'm not even sure what I'm supposed to say right now.

Or you go, oh man, I just got a 4 0 4 error in my brain. Sometimes I forget how to human. You ever do that? Just call it out. Turn it into a joke, let the other person into your experience, see where the conversation goes. From there, I did an interview. It's not out yet. It's with a social engineering expert that trains government agents.

She calls this pantsing yourself. If you wanna sort of subtract pretentiousness from a situation or reset the social status and the interaction, you can sort of self-deprecate to a point where you're like, I have no idea what I was gonna say. I showed up and now my brain is completely empty. Give me a gimme a minute.

You know, something like that. And people are like, oh, auto

Gabriel Mizrahi: ification.

Jordan Harbinger: Auto ification. Yes. And I think you'll be amazed by how endearing that can

Gabriel Mizrahi: be. [01:16:00] Yes, I totally agree. I also think that the awkwardness is probably a symptom of something else, and you can work on that deeper thing too. So when you're on the phone and your mind goes blank, or when you feel you have nothing to say, I do wonder, are you maybe fixating on what you need to say next instead of truly listening?

Because that can make it hard to be very present and to listen to somebody in a way that gives you the best response. Or if listening is really hard for you, are you maybe feeling anxious, self-conscious? If that's what's going on? Dig into that. See what that anxiety is really about. If you work on the self-consciousness, your ability to just be with another person without having all your resources consumed by thoughts about yourself, that will automatically increase a lot.

But look, I hear that you've gotten some difficult feedback in this area before, this whole boring comment, and I'm sorry that it wasn't delivered to you in a more sensitive way. I know that can make it very painful to take in. It can also make it hard to do something useful with that feedback. They're like, cool, somebody just called me boring.

What am I supposed to do with that? And that sucks. I [01:17:00] find that the notes that hurt the most, unfortunately, they're often the ones that have a kernel of truth or the ones that just expose a tender spot in us. It's funny, Jordan, a few weeks ago, one of my close friends made an observation about me. That kind of stung.

I felt like it was, I don't know, it was delivered like a little carelessly. It wasn't the way that I prefer to get feedback, which is very direct, but also very loving and measured and not too coded or subtle because that confuses me. And I also felt that this thing that he said wasn't entirely true. And I kind of resented that.

So I asked a bunch of questions. I tried not to defend myself too much, which is so hard to do in the moment. And then I went away and I thought about it and I talked about it with a couple other people. And after like a week I was, I just was like, I don't fully agree with this part of the feedback, but I absolutely get why he saw that quality in me.

And then this other part of the feedback. Unfortunately, that is true. It's a little too true. And even though I don't see myself the way he sees [01:18:00] me, I definitely want to keep an eye on that quality because yeah, I absolutely do not wanna become that person he was seeing in that moment. So yes, it stung, but also, thank you.

Huh.

Jordan Harbinger: Interesting. Was he making fun of your blouse collection or?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, so it's a collection now. I mean, the warm shirt I told you about becomes,

Jordan Harbinger: which apparently they don't 'cause they're on the wrong side.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I have moved on from my pirate era. I guess I got a, there's no collection.

Jordan Harbinger: Guess I have to return my Christmas gift that I got for you.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No. Ironically enough, it was actually about how I was talking about a book I was reading and this new area of psychology that I'm getting obsessed with. And I think I came across as like a little knowit ollie and maybe skimming on the surface of some of my own stuff by trying to refer to some really interesting theories.

It's hard to explain, but it was, are you skating on the surface of your stuff by reference to these ideas that you're reading? It was like that. So yeah, it kind of stung and I don't really think of myself as a person who does that, but in that moment, I think in a way I was a little bit, and I get why he had that impression.

Anyway, I'm just sitting here [01:19:00] chuckling at how quick we are to get angry or withdraw when we're wounded, and how important it's to not do that. You see how that gets in the way of getting the feedback you need anyway to get back to you, my friend. I'm really sorry that this boring comment hurt. I imagine it hurt because it's a hurtful thing to say to somebody.

It also probably hurt because it touched a part of you that is tender and it chimed with some feelings you might have about yourself. And so this is an invitation for you to be willing to sit with that hurt in order to receive the information that it contains. But here's what I want you to know. This is really important.

When this person referred to you as boring, I think what they were probably saying was that their interaction with you, which by the way, they participated in too, let's not forget that. That did not live up to some expectation or some need of theirs, what they did not mean, or even if they meant it. It is not true that you as a human being are fundamentally boring and will always be that way.

I truly believe no human being is boring. Deep [01:20:00] down, I think we are all fascinating and I can hear from your email alone that you have this rich inner life. You have goals, you have needs, you have weaknesses and challenges. You wanna connect with the people around you. All of that already makes you so interesting and very sympathetic in my view.

So if anyone experiences you as boring, there are really only a few reasons that could be. One is they're just missing you, which by the way happens to us all the time. People just don't get us. Sometimes they don't see the parts of us, or they don't want to take the time to see the parts of us that are interesting.

That's okay, but that doesn't mean that you are fundamentally this way. Another possibility is that you have to learn how to share yourself with people in a way that is more engaging, more colorful, more compelling. To Jordan's point, that is a skill too. It's a practice. Or the other possibility is that you have to keep investing in yourself and creating experiences or following thoughts and opportunities that make you more and more interesting.

They don't need to be huge experiences. They don't need to be exotic, but they have to be [01:21:00] meaningful to you. So this boring note, just like my friend's feedback I just told you about, it might be wrong, it might be right, it might be both. But my sincere hope for you is that you can do something productive with it instead of using it to tear yourself down or confirm your worst fears about yourself.

And follow that into new experiences starting with these new chats with your colleagues.

Jordan Harbinger: Amen to all that, Gabe. It's the old Dale Carnegie idea. If you want to be interesting to other people, be interested in those other people.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Totally. And that's another reason introverts can shine in this department.

'cause yeah, they tend to have a great capacity for curiosity.

Jordan Harbinger: They do. In fact, Susan Cain even says it's greater than in extroverts, which is great. So to get tactical here, this is your job now. Get curious about yourself. Get curious about the people at your office. Listen, you're probably already good at that, and the rest is just executing.

Planning a meetup, doing someone a favor, showing up for somebody in a time of need. Opening up about something, whatever it is, and if you aren't doing it yet, seriously, do the Six Minute Networking course at Six Minute [01:22:00] Networking dot com. Trust me. Yes. It's so simple as to seem silly. Yes, it can be a little adminy at times.

Yes, it changes people's lives. Also, a lot of it is really about developing relationships digitally, which is a huge plus for introverts. It's not asking you to go give a Ted Talk and then see what happens if you do all that. I know you're gonna grow a ton. You're gonna start to see some new results and good luck.

Show notes and transcripts on the website, advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show, all at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe is over on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi. This show is created an association with PodcastOne.

My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tadas Sidlauskas, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. Yes, I am a lawyer, but I am not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Ditto Corbin Payne and Joanna Tate.

Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode [01:23:00] useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.