1111: Jay Dobyns | Undercover with the Hells Angels Part One

1111: Jay Dobyns | Undercover with the Hells Angels Part One

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[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Coming up next on The Jordan Harbinger Show.

[00:00:01] Jay Dobyns: Those groups are inherently paranoid. They're paranoid for a reason that paranoia keeps 'em outta prison. They're traditionally untrusting groups of people. I. So how do you build that trust? For me, I was a salesman. That's the way I looked at my job. I was a salesman.

My product was me.

[00:00:26] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people. And turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker through long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, performers, even the occasional gold smuggler, economic hitman, former jihadi or extreme athletes.

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Just visit Jordan harbinger.com/start or search for us in your Spotify app. To get started, my guest today joined the AF Bureau of Alcohol, tobacco, and Firearms. A lot of you haven't heard of that I noticed. And he went undercover in the Hell's Angels, the most notorious biker gang in the world. In this episode, we'll discuss what it takes to go undercover, especially in such a dangerous, organized crime organization.

We'll discover why it's so hard to dismantle an organization like the Hell's Angels or any biker gang. We'll also learn about the customs and culture of the Hell's Angels. They have a lot of rules, is actually quite complicated and surprising. Of course, I also wanted to know how to build an undercover identity, stay safe while hanging out and partying and engaging in criminal activity with ultra violent criminal bikers and how you build a case against such a powerful crime organization as a cop, as an undercover officer, trying to take down the Hell's Angels.

Here we go with Jay Dobbins bins. Do you know Ken Croak? I do, yeah. He was on here a couple years ago. That was a super interesting episode. A lot of people really liked it. Were you before or after or the same time as him? Before. Before. Okay. Before.

[00:02:13] Jay Dobyns: Yeah. My operation was before Kenny's.

[00:02:15] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. So in his book, he mentions other undercover operations.

He's probably talking about yours, right? Because there's not tons of undercover biker gang. There's

[00:02:23] Jay Dobyns: not. But there's some other operations

[00:02:25] Jordan Harbinger: of significance that he

[00:02:26] Jay Dobyns: might be

[00:02:27] Jordan Harbinger: referencing. I see, okay. Yeah, I wasn't sure 'cause he specifically didn't talk about them very much. Probably for good reasons. Look, I mean the book starts with you getting shot, so this stuff is dangerous and I'd love to start with that story because frankly it sounds like a good reason not to join , the A TF in the first place.

[00:02:45] Jay Dobyns: You know, it actually reinforced my reason to join. To be honest with you, I got hired on a Monday. I didn't have any law enforcement experience. Four days later, I was a very much remote part of arrest scenario. As the main team, as the raid team approached the suspect, he took off running. I gave Chase from way in the back, ended up catching up and the suspect disappeared into his neighborhood.

It was a pretty rough neighborhood and had just vanished. In the search forum, he was hiding and I ended up getting isolated and he popped up and had a gun on me. Uh, put the gun to my head, was holding me hostage, walked me towards one of our vehicles, one of the law enforcement vehicles that was there, intending to use that as his escape with me driving.

Pushed me in the front seat was behind me with the gun held to my head. The other agents now realizing what happened, began to surround the car, and he's screaming at me to drive to get him out of there to help him make his escape. Like I said, I didn't have any experience, but I knew better than to drive off with this guy holding the gun to my head.

I knew that there was a bad end game to this scenario. I wanted that end game to take place while I had some partners around versus 20 miles down the road kneeling in some ditch being executed by this guy. My initial plan there was a telephone pole, probably 30 yards in front of us, and I was like, I'm gonna run us into this telephone pole as hard as I can, as fast as I can get this car going.

I'm gonna hit this telephone pole. I went to turn the ignition and then plan B hit my brain and I pulled the keys outta the ignition and dropped them to the floorboard . And I told him, I said, dude, I dropped the keys. And as I lean forward to grab the keys, the gun rolled off my head. I. He ended up pressing it into my back, and then my partners that were surrounding the vehicle, they lit him up from every direction.

Both the passenger side window, the driver's side window, the rear window. I. They ventilated this dude. It was a five or ten second lead and glass storm like you would see in a Quentin Tarantino movie. That's what it was like. And in the process, the suspect shot me in the back. The bullet went in my back.

It went through my lung. It narrowly missed my heart. It exited the left side of my chest. Four days on the job, I'm bleeding the death in this trailer park with blood coming outta my chest. Like you're holding your thumb over the end of a garden hose. This giant pool of blood was growing around me and I was like, man, I haven't even gotten a paycheck yet and I'm dying.

You haven't gotten your key card? Exactly.

[00:05:30] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. So that's a hell of a first week on the job. You're still here. So you survived that clearly, I'm guessing he didn't .

[00:05:38] Jay Dobyns: Yeah, he didn't make it. The agents, after the shooting takes place, he was in the backseat of this car, pull him out of the backseat. It was a two-door Monte Carlo.

And pushed me into the backseat where he was at to make the trip or try to find a hospital, try to find some help. We were in a pretty remote area, but the truth of it is, after having survived that, one of the very best things, maybe the best thing that ever happened to me on the job was that event. It taught me how quickly things can go bad, how quickly things get violent.

I wasn't brought up like that. I was brought up like in the Happy Days, a Richie Cunningham white picket fence, both parents, family. So to learn the law enforcement game, like I had to learn it on the job. I wasn't born into that kind of life. And so the doors that opened contacts had created. In a weird way, the credibility it created because I couldn't wait to come back to work.

I think everybody was waiting for me to retire, to resign, to use that as an excuse to get out. It was my excuse to try again and see if I could get it right.

[00:06:57] Jordan Harbinger: All the dumb rookie jokes probably stop if you've gotten shot during an arrest, even if it was your first week. Oh, trust me. I still got 'em. Are you still

[00:07:05] Jay Dobyns: I still get 'em, dude. You're the guy who got shot four days on the job. You're that guy. Yeah. How'd you manage that? Yeah, like I still get 'em. I deserve 'em. I earned it to be mocked and to be made fun of, especially having survived it, and hopefully I tried to survive it with a good, positive attitude. Always looking forward.

This is life. Trying to take a bad situation and make something out of it. I truly believe life is 10% of what happens to us and 90% how we react to it.

[00:07:36] Jordan Harbinger: Sure. You were married at this point, right? Already? I was. Did your wife think like, oh, okay, he's gonna resign and become a science teacher now? 100%.

[00:07:46] Jay Dobyns: When I was confronted with that, like, okay, well what are you gonna do now?

And I'm like, what I'm gonna do now is try to recover, try to heal and go back to work and see if I can do this right.

[00:07:56] Jordan Harbinger: I'm guessing that wasn't the answer she was hoping to hear. No, that didn't go over real well. Oof. Did getting shot so early in your career, did that change how you, the job afterward?

[00:08:08] Jay Dobyns: Yeah, so prior to being involved in law enforcement, I was an athlete.

I played college football. I had a very successful college football career. But it wasn't because I was an amazing athlete, a great performer. I was constantly surrounded by people who were bigger, stronger, faster, more athletic than me. The way I was able to compete as an athlete was to outwork my competition and play the game as recklessly as I could play it.

That translated to law enforcement, outwork the competition. Outwork your peers. Be reckless about how you approach the job. I'm not sure that's the advice that I would give to a young officer, like quote unquote be reckless about it, but I am who I am. The tiger doesn't change his stripes. That's what my personality was.

That was my character trait, and so I just applied that to now coming off a football field to the a law enforcement career.

[00:09:07] Jordan Harbinger: How did you end up becoming an undercover? It's just you have to lean in to do that, right? Because it's a 24 7 kind of. version of the job.

[00:09:15] Jay Dobyns: Absolutely. I was an A TF agent and with a TF they do a pretty good job of kind of letting you find your own way.

And undercover work is truly nothing more than a tool in an investigator's toolbox. There's dozens, if not hundreds of ways to investigate a case. Undercover work is one of those ways. But it's where my interests lied. I didn't know if I would find any success, but I wanted to try. That's actually why I came to A TF, because the A TF Undercover Program, and historically our operatives were the king of the mountain.

They were some of the legendary figures in law enforcement. I've always said if you're a baseball player and you play shortstop, you wanna play for the New York Yankees. You wanna be Derek Jeter as an undercover agent. If you wanted to play with the big boys, you wanted to be an undercover agent in ATFs program.

[00:10:12] Jordan Harbinger: Why do we have a separate bureau for alcohol, tobacco, and firearms specifically that? Is that a prohibition thing? Because can't the FBI handle that? I don't understand why those things are separate.

[00:10:21] Jay Dobyns: I think in today's world and in today's political world, that's the debate like why do we need a TF? A TF grew from prohibition, the Elliot ness, quote unquote untouchable stories as they were investigating prohibition, illegal liquor and liquor trafficking.

Those gangsters in the thirties used guns, machine guns, Tommy guns, Thompson machine guns, which led to . Some of the gun laws, when a still was discovered out in the wilderness, it was nearly impossible to dismantle that and bring it back to civilization so they'd blow 'em up. So a TF kind of naturally inherited the firearms laws naturally inherited.

The explosives laws. Then in 1968, the Gun Control Act is put in place, which elevated the gun laws. After Dr. King was assassinated, after Bobby Kennedy was assassinated, which led to the gun control Act, that enhanced regulation of firearms, A TF didn't actually become its own bureau until historically, I believe, like 1972.

It's not an old agency. It's not a big agency. There's probably more FBI agents in New York City than there are a TF agents across the country.

[00:11:46] Jordan Harbinger: Most people don't even know, like they maybe have heard of it and internationally people have no idea what it is generally. But everyone's heard of the FBI 'cause it's in movies.

If it's in the movies, it's like there's a guy from the A TF who's like a weird foil character for somebody else, right? Like the Rock or whatever shows up in Fast and Furious. I don't even know if that's part of it, but yeah, it's rare you guys don't get a lot of front page media.

[00:12:07] Jay Dobyns: I'll tell you like a funny backstory that plays into that.

There was a Tony Scott movie years ago titled Deja Vu that starred Denzel Washington, that story originally, Denzel is an FBI agent, and he is investigating this bombing of a tour boat, which kind of leads to this big, massive destruction. There's some A TF people that consulted on that film and said, this would be much more authentic if this was an A TF agent investigating this crime.

It fits ATFs jurisdiction. And Tony Scott flipped that character from an FBI agent to an A TF agent. And people were like, oh, what are you doing? Like no one knows who these guys are. But Tony was big on authenticity and being accurate and trying to be historically accurate. So I'm agreeing with your point.

Not a lot of people know who a TF is ultimately a TF. Because of the gun laws, because of the arson laws, uh, we have some narcotics jurisdiction. Ultimately, a TF became the equivalent of the federal violent crime police, which led to our ability to investigate narcotics, robberies, home invasion, murder for cases, those types of cases.

That have a gun or bomb element to 'em that give us jurisdiction, and then we became very good at investigating those types of crimes.

[00:13:34] Jordan Harbinger: Going back to your undercover skillset, this seems like almost like the ATFs bread and butter, at least according to some of the books. Or maybe these books are just focused on undercover operations, and maybe that's why it seems like that.

But you mentioned earlier if you wanna do undercover, you wanna be in the A TF. Why are undercover operations so popular is not quite the right word. Prolific maybe. And why is this one of the main things that the A TF does? Is it because organized crime is usually associated with alcohol, tobacco, and firearms, and that's what you need in order to break these rings up?

[00:14:02] Jay Dobyns: Well, I think that our jurisdiction lent itself to undercover work in a lot of ways. Firearms, jurisdiction, explosives, jurisdiction. We overlapped into the narcotics world. But why has a TF gained notoriety or become prolific at undercover work? It's because that program was supported and encouraged. And then when I came on the job, I got hired in 1987, the other federal agencies were looking for very specialized skillsets in the people that they hired.

Like the FBI, for example, was looking for people with legal backgrounds. Accounting backgrounds, chemistry backgrounds, all those kinds of things. A TF was recruiting from police departments, state and local police departments. So they were hiring agents, new agents that understood the process of investigating a case and how to work informants and how to develop information and all those things.

So. The core of ATFs, agent Padre were like true criminal investigators who wanted to get down in the weeds. They wanted to get dirt underneath their fingernails. They weren't specialists. And then you take that with some of the people that came on with that courageous mindset of saying . Not only let me investigate this case, let me insert myself, let me put myself in the middle of a crime event and like now I'm biased to the undercover technique.

I'm biased to it because that's what I did for 27 years. But my bias is based in, there's really no better way to investigate a case because you're taking a living, breathing, trained law enforcement officer. Inserting him into a crime scheme or a crime event, or a crime group, and then that person is reporting back out real time to a case agent, a handler, ultimately to a jury, and to a judge, and to prosecutors what he or she saw and smelled and touched and heard.

And so to present, a case becomes overwhelmingly favorable behind an undercover investigation. It's not. Based on a wiretap and trying to decipher what you think you heard, or a surveillance or recovered evidence or a historical investigation, you're

[00:16:28] Jordan Harbinger: right in the middle of it. You know what's better than being shot in the head and left in a ditch by the Hell's Angels.

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[00:18:39] Jordan Harbinger: you're wondering how I managed to book all these great authors, thinkers, and creators every single week, it is because of my network, the circle of people I know, like, and trust.

I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself for free over@sixminutenetworking.com. Look, this is about work stuff, personal stuff. It's gonna make you a better connector, a better colleague, a better peer, and it's not cringey, it's not awkward, it's not networky. If I can say that in six minutes a day is all it takes.

Many of the guests on the show subscribe and contribute to the course I. Come on and join us. You'll be in smart company where you belong. We turned questions on. Somehow the software had turned questions off automatically. Thanks for that. We turned them back on. You can always ask questions in the course there as well.

It is free. I don't need your credit card, none of that nonsense. Six minute networking.com is where you can find it. Now, back to J Dobbins. How do you gain the criminal's trust? That's gotta be tricky. Isn't even quite the word, right? I mean, you show up . You gotta be friends with somebody initiated into this thing and you don't just knock on the door of the Hell's Angels and say like, Hey, I'd love to traffic some of those drugs.

You guys keep running back and forth across the country. That's not gonna fly. So where do you begin?

[00:19:42] Jay Dobyns: No, Jordan, that's the trick. And that's where the skillset, the character, and the personality of the ones that do it, that are successful, like truly comes out, is that not only the Hell's Angels, any criminal organization, any unit that has spent time together, there's loyalty there and those groups.

Are inherently paranoid and they're paranoid for a reason that paranoia keeps 'em outta prison. They're traditionally untrusting groups of people, so how do you build that trust? For me, I was a salesman. That's the way I looked at my job. I was a salesman. My product was me, so I had to figure out. What are my suspects looking for?

What do they value and can I craft a false persona that fits that, that allows me to approach them, spend time with them, ultimately gain trust. When you gain trust, you build loyalty. Sometimes you build love in some cases when you have enough time to spend with someone, but you do it. With the known intention that ultimately you're gonna betray all those things.

The human factor, it's strange, it's odd because God didn't build us that way to intentionally build someone's trust and love and loyalty with the opening intent. I'm gonna betray this at some point. It's unnatural,

[00:21:11] Jordan Harbinger: and you've gotta bury that, right? Because if you go into it thinking, I gotta keep these guys at arms length, because eventually I'm gonna throw 'em all in prison, you're tying a weight around your leg.

I.

[00:21:20] Jay Dobyns: So as you're building trust and trying to build credibility in the eyes of the suspects, for me, I had to constantly remind myself that this character, I'm portraying this false persona that I've inherited. If they find out the truth. They're not gonna ask me not to come around. I'm gonna get a straight razor drag across my throat or a baseball bat on the back of my head.

That's gonna be the reaction to it.

[00:21:47] Jordan Harbinger: So you basically have to keep that fear of they're gonna murder me if they figure out that this is BS and that outweighs whatever other psychological protections you're maybe subconsciously running in your head.

[00:21:58] Jay Dobyns: As I was researching the Hell's Angels, and when I was asked to participate and lead that undercover operation, I wasn't a biker investigator.

There were dozens of agents that I felt would've served that role better than I did. But knowledge is power for law enforcement. The more we know about whatever our suspect or crime scene is, the better we're able to investigate it. So in doing my research. In the Hell's Angels trying to figure out who's who in the zoo.

Like who exactly am I dealing with? I learned all those obvious public things that are easy to find out. They're classified as an international organized crime syndicate. 5,000 members, 500 charters. They're in 60 different countries all over the world. But the one thing that kept jumping out at me is that they're willing to kill their own.

They had a historical track record of murdering their own members if they felt betrayed or compromised. And so that was always in the back of my head, these dudes will kill you.

[00:23:03] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. God, the hell's angels. Especially, it just, it's an understatement to say there are a rough bunch, but tell us what one percenters are.

Right? Because I think this kind of goes to it, right? They're proud of being these one percenters. Tell us what this means.

[00:23:15] Jay Dobyns: That's a term that's used in the outlaw biker community, which says that we are the 1% of this world that are outlaws, that are criminals, and they're proud of it. They advertise it.

They're not shy about it. It's a badge of honor for them. There's millions and millions of people out there and that ride motorcycles in groups and for all the joy of it, the brotherhood of it, or sisterhood of it, not just the Hell's Angels, but all these outlaw motorcycle gangs truly pride themselves in being that 1% that is outside the law.

Like in the Hell's Angels world, they portray themselves publicly as being like these fun-loving rascals who like have this common love of riding motorcycles together. They just don't wanna live by society's rules and society's laws. They want the freedom to do and go and be who they wanna be, which there's not many people that will argue with that mentality on the surface.

But when you see behind the curtain. They have pages and pages, volumes, almost books worth of rules and policies and procedures and protocols that you have to live by to exist in that gang. Far beyond what any of us as a common citizen or common man have to live by.

[00:24:40] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it's a fascinating subculture that someone normal would not want to be a part of this.

In the book you discuss, you're hanging around these guys before you go undercover or try to even get in the gang, you're hanging around and guys are asking you for favors. Hey, can you kill this guy for money? And you can't be like, no. I don't do that sort of thing, right? So you have to say yes, but then you can't actually do it because you're a cop.

So how does all this work, right? How do you say, sure, I'll shoot that guy in the back of the head for 1200 bucks or 20,000, whatever it is, but then not actually do it, but somehow that still builds your credibility. They don't think you chickened out. How do you do something like that?

[00:25:17] Jay Dobyns: For me and for my career, which like everybody's got their own approach and their own techniques and their own styles and strategies, it's very individual.

And I'll preface it by saying this, I was never the best undercover agent out there. I've never said that publicly or privately. There's dozens of people that I admire who I think were better at the job than I was. What I was good at was creating what we call street theater. And Street theater is inaccurate conclusions based on accurate observations.

So I would accurately let suspects see me. I would let them see me. Buy drugs, buy guns, be involved in beatings, doing debt collections, selling stolen vehicles, whatever you name it. I could create that scenario. What they didn't know, the inaccurate part of it is those scenarios were staffed and manned and acted out by other undercover operators.

They were skits, they were hoaxes. Jordan, if you're my suspect and. You see me buy machine guns and pay for machine guns or receive machine guns, and you're there and I put 'em in the trunk of my car and you're handling 'em. You've just witnessed what you believe to be. Machine gun trafficking, firearms trafficking.

That's way better than me telling you some story about what I do. I've involved you in it. I paid you, I gave you some cash for watching my back on a debt collection. Now you tell your friends, Hey, you know what, this guy, what he says, he's legit. I was there. I experienced

[00:26:55] Jordan Harbinger: it. Meanwhile, you bought the guns from a, a cop, from an a TF agent who seized them from somebody else three months ago

[00:27:01] Jay Dobyns: from another undercover who had a script.

It's almost like a play or a movie almost knowing what the dialogue is going to be, let alone like what their actions and what marks they have to hit. It was very much like a play or a film .

[00:27:15] Jordan Harbinger: So do you just sit in an office and meet up with the other guy and go, okay, you're gonna bring this and we gotta get the judge to sign off on that and gotta get the bosses to sign off on this.

And you say, Hey, aren't you the guy that killed Tony? And then I say, yeah, what's it to you? And then we do this gun transact. Like you're sitting there discussing this right? And drinking coffee. You do it the next week. How do you plan something like this?

[00:27:35] Jay Dobyns: For me personally, I had the equivalent of a playbook.

That I could put into play that had some loose scripts we could use. It was almost like, Hey, look, today we're gonna do a debt collection. Everybody turn to page 17 of our playbook. These are the roles we need filled. This is how we're gonna portray it. This is how it's gonna look to the suspect that we introduce into this debt collection.

This is the vibe we wanna create for this guy. By the time the Hell's Angels case was presented to me, I already had 15 years of undercover experience. I bought guns hundreds of times from. Street guns from P shooters, handguns to shoulder launch rockets. I'd bought bombs from PVC homemade pipe bombs to servo activated remote control C four devices.

I bought dope from dime bags and eight balls to cartel level dope. I'd been involved in infiltrating home invasion crews and schemes. Portraying myself as a contract killer in murder for hire cases. I never considered myself an expert in anything, but I had spent 15 years building and developing the trade craft of undercover work.

So when that opportunity was presented, I was pretty confident, even though I was entering a world that I probably didn't fully understand that I could sell them, that I was a gangster. Who's selling shoulder fired rockets in the United States? You know what? You'd be shocked. Really? You'd be shocked. We did a case where a home invasion crew, they were doing narcotics, robberies.

They wanted an RPG for use in their scheme. This is what you're looking for. Guess what? I know what the black market is. So it sounds outrageous. It does. It sounds crazy, but it's all crazy. Every bit of it when someone's hiring you and gonna play God with someone's life, and someone approaches me and says, Hey, I wanna hire you to go kill Jordan.

I. Okay, I can do that. And then I approach Jordan and say, dude, today's your lucky day. Someone wants you killed. How am I lucky they've involved the cops, they've involved the police. So if you will cooperate with me, if you will play your part in this scheme, you are going to help me catch the person that is contracted to have you murdered.

[00:30:01] Jordan Harbinger: So I vanished

[00:30:01] Jay Dobyns: for

[00:30:01] Jordan Harbinger: a couple of months,

[00:30:02] Jay Dobyns: right? Because you killed me. Is that how it works? And even before that, I'm gonna take you and I'm gonna use makeup in Hollywood theatrics, and I'm gonna take pictures and videos of you being murdered, and then I'm gonna take those pictures back to the suspect as evidence, as proof that you are dead.

I never crossed paths with anybody who said, man, I'm not willing to play. I'm not willing to help you find and capture and investigate. And charge and prosecute and convict the person that has hired someone to murder me.

[00:30:35] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. It seems like that's a pretty easy decision. What, I'm sorry. I'm stuck on this.

Why does a home invasion crew need an RPG? What good could that possibly do if you're breaking into someone's home, even if you're stealing drugs? Why do you want a grenade launcher that just seems like the loudest ? Least covert thing that you could

[00:30:52] Jay Dobyns: use. These crews were building and selling and buying explosive devices as well.

It's such an intimidating tool. A bomb is such an intimidating tool. It's so indiscriminate. If you have a gun and you point it at someone, plus or minus, you're gonna be at least close to your intended target. A bomb is indiscriminate. That's intimidating. Just to find a bomb. If you found a bomb on your car like that in itself and the indiscriminate nature of it and what your imagination of what that could have created is massively intimidating.

[00:31:32] Jordan Harbinger: I see. So it's almost for show, 'cause I'm imagining this home and vision crew's not blowing someone's door off with an RRP G. That's insane.

[00:31:39] Jay Dobyns: No, but you also look at how the cartels conduct their business. They're shooting RPGs, they're shooting rockets to each other and some very exotic weaponry being used if you're on the other side of that battle, and well, hey, these guys got shoulder launched rockets, and you're gonna think twice before you jump into that fight.

[00:31:57] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's a good point. Okay, and how much does it cost? To have someone killed. I'm obviously not gonna do this, but I'm curious what someone says, Hey, go kill Jordan. Are you like, it's $1,500, or is it 15,000 or is it 150,000? Like what is the price range of a murder for hire? I have no idea.

[00:32:15] Jay Dobyns: That's a great question.

And it's all of the above. There's no bottom line to do it. It is the solicitor's interest and willingness to participate in the scheme. If someone says, I'm gonna give you a thousand dollars to go kill this guy. As an undercover or just as a hitman, you could say, you know what? I ain't doing it for a thousand dollars.

It's 10 times that it's $10,000. If I'm being solicited to commit a murder and I decline, if I blow through what they can financially afford, like how do I now walk away from you knowing that you want someone killed and now I'm just gonna walk away from it because we can't agree on the price. Yeah. Now you're a liability, right?

So you basically have to agree to it. I was involved in a home invasion investigation. I'm leaving a meeting. I'm at a Waffle House parking lot, and I'm leaving a meeting with an arm full of pipe bombs from a young man, and as I'm leaving, he says to me, Hey, I need some help tightening somebody up tonight, man.

Are you willing to come with me? I need some backup. Like I've accomplished my mission. I have a handful of pipe bombs that I just purchased from 'em. I wasn't interested in being involved in. Whatever his personal life dispute was. So I declined that night. He goes out and commits a murder. He kills the guy.

Like I wasn't fully understanding what he was asking me to participate in. I was sued civilly. Me and my partner were sued civilly by the murder victims' family saying that we should have known. We should have anticipated. What this guy intended, there was no indications that he was gonna become that violent or that's what his intent were.

Now the civil suit was ultimately dismissed and it was partly dismissed. Uh. By testimony saying like, do you think knowing what I do for a living, that if I thought this guy wanted assistance in a murder, that I would've stepped away from that and just stood back and let him commit that without intervening, I would not have done that.

I didn't understand what his intentions were. But nonetheless, once you become involved in a murder for hire case, everything else comes to a stop. It's almost like the hands on the clock stop moving. Because everything in your personal life, in your professional life now has to be put on hold because you have to see this through.

If I've been solicited to commit a murder and I'm not quick enough, or I'm not good enough at what I'm doing, and the solicitor goes outside of me, and what happens if he crossed paths with a real hitman? Who's really gonna do it? Can't take the risk,

[00:34:56] Jordan Harbinger: right? Right. So you have to put everything on hold and go fake murder somebody.

Because if they need 'em killed fast and they do it 'cause you were too slow, or tomorrow is your day off, then that person's dead and it's kind of your fault. You

[00:35:09] Jay Dobyns: can't drag your feet because you have to be proactive Now. Because waiting is dangerous. Don't be ashamed

[00:35:17] Jordan Harbinger: of who you are. That's your parents' job.

We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Airbnb. Now that the kids are getting older, we're finally starting to think about the kind of travel we've always dreamed of. Istanbul's spice Markets, the Great Wall of China. Sipping some tea in Taiwan, picnic in Paris, shopping in London, trekking through Patagonia.

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[00:36:29] Jen Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by a G one. Let's face it. Waiting for the perfect time to focus on your health is just another way to put it off January 1st, next Monday after life calms down. That magical moment doesn't exist. The good news, you don't need perfection.

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[00:37:34] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored in part by Better Help. We all know how to avoid red flags in relationships, but what about green flags? You don't see enough of those, do we? The traits that make relationships great, like clear communication, trust and honesty, mutual support. If you're not sure what green flags even look like, uh, it's a flag that's green.

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[00:38:43] Jordan Harbinger: If you like this episode of the show, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support the amazing sponsors who make this show possible. All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support us are searchable and clickable over at Jordan harbinger.com/deals.

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So you're involved in some of these home invasion crew stuff. Robbing a normal person would be just a weirdly distressing event. Maybe I just don't have a good idea of what this is all about, and maybe I'm naive, but it seems like it would be weirdly thrilling to go in with a group of criminals and rob a drug dealer because you're not robbing somebody who's like a hardworking person.

I. You're not robbing a normal person who's trashing their kids' rooms, you're robbing a drug dealer. So I'm with scumbags, robbing a scumbag. Is there an element of you're not gonna get in trouble for it, it's part of your job. You're getting paid. If there were

[00:39:47] Jay Dobyns: suspects involved as a narcotics robbery crew, a home invasion crew, I had a common theme, a common line that I used universally in those cases.

And I would always tell the suspects, I'm not looking for robbers who are willing to murder. I'm looking for murderers who are willing to rob. That is the mentality I need because exactly as you said, someone has either a stash of cash or like a big load of narcotics that I'm gonna bring a. Your crew, your robbery crew in to help me steal, and it was simple.

I would say, look, this isn't gonna be easy work. We're not snatching grandma's purse off her shoulder and running down the alley. These dudes are gonna be armed up. They're guarding their product. You have to be ready to go to war to do this, to participate in this. And then when these crews show up with guns and ski masks and rubber gloves and bulletproof vests.

Their intention is clear. Yeah,

[00:40:49] Jordan Harbinger: it's a

[00:40:49] Jay Dobyns: good conspiracy

[00:40:50] Jordan Harbinger: charge. As a

[00:40:50] Jay Dobyns: prosecutor, they know what they're getting into. I made it a point to make sure that they knew what they were getting into, and if someone didn't have the balls for it, if this is not what you do, get out now because this could get nasty.

[00:41:04] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I would imagine prosecutors love this, right? Because when they go, oh, I thought we were just gonna go in and steal the television. So you brought automatic weapons, explosives, body armor, and 15 dudes to go steal televisions out of this person's house. I don't think so. Oh, and we have you on tape talking about robbing the kilos of cocaine that this guy's stashed in a safe.

If you're the

[00:41:25] Jay Dobyns: defendant in that case, how do you decide that you're gonna go into a courtroom, try to convince a jury and a judge that wasn't your intention. When I've laid out the scheme to you, and it's all audio and video recorded, and you show up with tools of the trade to commit an armed robbery, good luck talking yourself through that one.

Good luck convincing a jury that wasn't your intention

[00:41:48] Jordan Harbinger: right now. At that point, your defenses, these other guys made me do it and I feared for my life and I couldn't say no or whatever, and you plea it out,

[00:41:56] Jay Dobyns: which is one of the problems entrapment as an undercover agent officer. You always have entrapment in the back of your mind.

You can't create a scheme that is so wildly attractive to someone that a common person couldn't say no to it. You can't make it so lucrative, so easy, so glamorous that someone who's down on their luck saying like, look, I don't wanna do this. I haven't done this before. But I, I have to take this risk. You can't entrap people into those crimes.

But part of building the case is showing and proving through their own words and actions that they are predisposed to do this. They've done it before. Right?

[00:42:41] Jordan Harbinger: Entrapment, let me see here. I'm gonna look up the standards 'cause it's been a while since law school, but it's basically when a law enforcement official, or, or their agent, so somebody who's working with you like an informant.

Induces a person to commit a crime that they otherwise would not have committed government, inducement, coercion, extraordinary promises, and like you said, lack of predisposition. So the defendant was not already inclined to prepare to commit the crime before law enforcement's involvement. And there are other tests depending on the state, like what you say to the person.

If you come to me and you say, let's go rub a drug dealer. And I say, no way. You say, come on man, there's no one there. I know that your mom has cancer and you have no income, and all you have to do is help me carry this stuff and I trust you. You don't even have to carry a gun that might rise to the standard of entrapment, and if you don't do it, I have to kill you because you know about this operation.

That's likely entrapment. But if you come to me and you say, let's go rob a drug dealer, and I say, great. That's my favorite hobby. Let's shoot 'em while we go in there too, because I hate these guys and the way that they look and split the money with me, that's not likely entrapment.

[00:43:48] Jay Dobyns: If I am out there convincing people to commit crimes that they haven't done, they're not predisposed to do, not willing to do shame on me, that's bad policing.

If I'm not any better at it than that, then I shouldn't be doing it in the first place. Basically,

[00:44:05] Jordan Harbinger: entrapment is, are you making criminals out of people that wouldn't otherwise commit those particular crimes?

[00:44:11] Jay Dobyns: Entrapment is always in the back of your mind, avoiding it, overcoming entrapment, making sure that we're not creating criminals.

We don't have to create criminals. There's plenty of them out there. Um, another element is outrageous government conduct. Whereas an agent of the government, you're so outrageous in your character, you're so outrageous in your role that you overwhelm the suspect. Those are the two most common defenses that we face.

My client was entrapped. You lured him into something that he wasn't willing to do, or you and your character

[00:44:42] JHS Clip: were

[00:44:42] Jay Dobyns: so over the top that my client was intimidated or afraid to

[00:44:48] Jordan Harbinger: say, no, that's tough. That's gotta be tough, right? You have to argue that you are convincing and really good at your job is a hitman.

And then on the other hand, you also have to argue, but this person wouldn't have been afraid of me. Why? You kill people for money. Like why wouldn't he be afraid of you? That's a decent defense, I would imagine That's effective.

[00:45:06] Jay Dobyns: Yeah, and there's always problems to overcome, regardless of who you are, not only what you do for a living.

The greatest achievers in life are problem solvers. I don't care if you're operating on someone's brain, if you're flying the space shuttle, if you're an undercover agent, if you're running a business. If you're running a family every day, we're confronted with problems. The people that achieve are the ones that are great at solving and handling problems.

[00:45:33] Jordan Harbinger: You had some pretty convincing, I don't know what you call it, backstopping. You had all this crap in your house, so it would look like you were gonna go down in a shootout with the police if it came down to it. Tell us about that. 'cause it sounds like you basically had some crazy prepper looking stash in a bunch of booze.

[00:45:49] Jay Dobyns: In essence, it was part of an earlier element to our conversation of street theater, inaccurate conclusions from accurate observations. So in my undercover house I had bulletproof vests. They were laying around. I carried a baseball bat with me all the time. I didn't really talk about it. It was just a prop that I used that I held onto.

I had a plumber's wrench hanging on a nail at the door of my house, so at the front door of my house, there's a nail in the wall and there's a pipe wrench hanging there. All those things. I didn't have to speak to those things. When you come to someone's house, if you came to my house to socialize or to visit me or see me, or come to a party and you bulletproof vests laying around, you're gonna form in your own mind a conclusion as to what that means.

If you're dealing with me and I'm portraying myself in this gangster role and I'm swinging a baseball bat around with me, that's so uncommon. It's so unusual. You're gonna decide for yourself what that means. If you came to my house and you see a plumber's wrench hanging at the back door, I don't have to say a word about it.

Your automatic conclusion is gonna be if someone rings his doorbell at three o'clock in the morning and he doesn't have a gun in his hand before he opens that door, he can grab that plumber's wrench off that nail and have a weapon in his hand. Those were all elements of the street theater. The inaccurate conclusions from accurate observations that all the totality of those things, starting with those little tiny things led to credibility.

[00:47:28] Jordan Harbinger: That makes sense, right? People fill in the blanks. I used to talk about this when I talked about dating, but it was like if you tell somebody something, let's say it's a level one credibility, right? Like, okay, he says this about himself. It may be true, it may not be true if they hear about it from one of your friends, that's more credible because it's not coming from you, but it's still coming from one of your friends.

So like maybe there's a 20%, 30%. Level of doubt. But if they think they figured it out on their own without anybody saying anything, that's almost a hundred percent level of credibility, right? And people think, oh, I know this because of my observational skills. And what they don't know is that you are manipulating their observational skills.

[00:48:07] Jay Dobyns: If I tell you that I'm a debt collector and I give you glamorous historical stories of debt collections that I've been a part of, yeah, you're bragging. You're gonna put your own level of value on those. But if you're standing at my shoulder, I. I do a debt collection and I've paid you to be there to watch my back, and then we get done and I take some of that money that I just collected and put it in your pocket.

I would historically tell people, Hey, you just participate in this. You saw behind the curtain, you saw what I'm about. Do not open your mouth. Do not put my business out on the street. They can't help themselves. They had to tell other people. I was there. I saw it, I touched it, I witnessed it. I participated in it.

Then all those things you previously mentioned start to come

[00:48:54] Jordan Harbinger: true. From what I understand from the book, you don't even like motorcycles that much from what I read. So how did it end up that you are the guy who gets picked to infiltrate the Hell's Angels? How did that happen?

[00:49:06] Jay Dobyns: The Hell's Angels in Arizona were operating violently and with impunity.

No one was really checking him, and so I was approached by a case agent, an A TF agent named Joe Ella. The most dynamic, fabulous, major, complex case investigator that I ever crossed paths with. The guy's brilliant. He's a savant. He's one of those guys who had the ability to like, assess and hold and process fast amounts of intelligence and information and reference it instantly.

Mentally. He was a savage of an investigator. So Joe wants to take a run at the Hell's Angels and he approaches me. We are friends, we were peers. I love Joe. I respected him. We'd worked together in the past. And he says, I want you to lead this undercover investigation and we're gonna get side by side, not infiltrate the Hell's Angels.

We're gonna try to get side by side with the Hell's Angels. My first reaction was, like I said earlier, I'm not the right guy. I can name a dozen guys who will fill the role that you need served in this case better than I can. Guys who have studied this world, this culture, who are comfortable with it, who are familiar with it, he said, you know what?

Here's why I want you to lead. This is you have a head start. I'd already been working a case that had been based in Bullhead City, Arizona, which was right across the Colorado River from Laughlin, Nevada. I had been working a case on some bounty hunters, uh, that were getting outta hand. They were like beating people.

They were taken like murder for hire contracts. They were way off the rails in this. Bounty Hunter investigation. I had already started crossing paths with members of the Hell's Angels not as targets, just in the criminal community in that society. He's like, dude, you got a headstart. You always figure it out.

You'll figure this out. You'll figure out how to play the game, but you got a headstart. They already know who you are. We don't have to start from scratch. You know? I jumped in and my mentality on this job was always. Dangerous boys go to dangerous places. The A TF didn't hire me to sit at a desk and do a computer investigation.

They hired me to get out and like I said earlier, get in the weeds and get down and dirty. I. And I'll say this like, we never accomplish anything in the world of law enforcement alone. We had a fully staffed task force. We had every job and every element of an investigation covered by professionals who were experts at whatever it is that their assignment was.

So in the end of an investigation, any investigation. There's typically someone left who either gets the credit, sometimes takes the blame, but there's someone left on the point who ends up when something gets publicity, speaking about it. That happened to be me in this Hell's Angels infiltration, but like I had dozens of people around me who made every bit the sacrifice and suffered and put the amount of time and blood, sweat, and tears into the case that I did.

[00:52:20] Jordan Harbinger: Okay, so at first you're posing as, is it fair to say a petty criminal, or maybe not a petty criminal, but just a regular criminal At this point, you're not like, Hey, wanna join your gang? It was just like, Hey, I wanna do criminal activity for money.

[00:52:33] Jay Dobyns: What I was known as was a gun runner. I. A debt collector ultimately, like a quasi kind of unprofessional hitman.

And so my cover story wasn't one that I invented or just used for the Hell's Angels case. It had been one I had developed and perfected over years and years and years of undercover operations, and I just recycled it. I had become comfortable in playing that character. I had become comfortable in being Jaybird Davis, the gun runner.

I could talk about the nuances and the trade craft of firearms trafficking, explosives, trafficking. I could talk about debt collections with a level of expertise, having studied it, having talked to people that did it for real. Defendants criminal suspects. So when I presented that persona, I was presenting with a high level of confidence.

[00:53:33] Jordan Harbinger: Right. High level of authority as well. Yeah. Why specifically is it hard for a bureaucracy like law enforcement to go after motorcycle clubs like the Hell's Angels? I. From the book, not that law enforcement isn't up to the challenge, but it's almost like a design flaw. It's more fashionable maybe to go after one or two big volume drug dealers or gun dealers, or if you wanna make a ton of cases, you just go after small timers and you just rack 'em up one guy per week.

But going after a big organization seems really difficult, takes too much time and resources, and then . Maybe a questionable result?

[00:54:06] Jay Dobyns: Yeah, that's a good question. I'm not sure that I've got at least the perfect answer for it. The outlaw of motorcycle gangs to some extent operate in obscurity. It's not like we see them every day when we see them, they allow themselves to be seen.

They advertise who they are with the cuts, with the vests they wear. They're advertising their membership. Typically, and I'm gonna speak to the Hell's Angels, like I can't speak in this big picture that encompasses all motorcycle gangs with the Hell's Angels. If you're not crossing business with them, if you're not involved in the operations of their gang many times they're typically not hard to get along with.

It's not like these guys wake up in the morning and say like, who are we gonna go beat up today? They do what they do if you cross paths with them and then get sideways with them. They're some of the baddest cats on the planet, but like I didn't find them to be getting up in the morning and pouring themselves a bowl of Cheerios and then saying, who am I gonna beat up today?

Who am I gonna shoot today? Who am I gonna rob today? Those things that I was involved in were all elements that were part of their lifestyle well before I ever arrived on the scene.

[00:55:15] Jordan Harbinger: You are about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger show with an undercover a TF agent that infiltrated the infamous Pagans biker gang.

[00:55:23] JHS Clip: Everyone was saying, Hey, motorcycle enthusiasts, bikers are all bad. So they did this whole study and basically got a study. It came back and said, Hey, listen, 99% of 'em aren't, you know, 1% of these bikers might be problematic or gang members or what have you, but the rest aren't. Well then the bikers, the real bikers, the outlaw bikers were like, Hey, this is great.

We are the 1%. We're proud of being the 1%. I mean, you know, people think these are just a bunch of morons running around partying, and they're not. They're very sophisticated in how they move their money. They're very sophisticated in their structure, and they're also very sophisticated in what they do.

People are always like, oh, whatever made you decide to do a two year undercover. And listen, I didn't sign up for a two year undercover deal. That's just what it turned into. Very few of these run for two years. You are always kind of just seeing how it's going to play out, and that's where, you know, some of this dumb luck comes into it.

They assigned me to this hit squad inside the game. Most of the gang members don't even know that this group exists, but it's selected by Mother Club members of what they consider to be their heavy hitters. You know, the ones that can do the real doubt, dirty work. And so Hellboy, he had approached me, he's like, Hey, they want you to be a part of this.

We were gonna be targeting Hell's Angels and we were gonna be killing them. You have to be very quick in thinking. The reason why to go undercover is from the outside you can deal with, you know, maybe some low level members. You are never getting anywhere near the leadership. The only way to do that is to go undercover in the club and go up into the ranks.

I would've failed if I didn't have some dumb luck on my side and I had . Plenty of dumb luck throughout this case

[00:56:54] Jordan Harbinger: to hear how Ken Crow spent two years risking his life going through initiation in one of the most ruthless biker gangs in the world. Check out episode 6 73 of the Jordan Harbinger Show.

That's the end of part one, part two out in just a few days. All things j Dobbs will be in the show notes@jordanharbinger.com. Advertisers deals, discount codes, ways to support the show, all at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. Please consider supporting those who support this podcast. Also our newsletter Wee bit wiser is just waiting for you.

It's a great companion to the show. It's very practical. It's a two minute read every week. Many of you have been sending me awesome feedback on this, and I love writing it. I love creating this with you, and I love the dialogue. That results Jordan harbinger.com/news is where you can find it. Six minute networking over@sixminutenetworking.com.

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