1205: Minor Accusation Major Threat to Reputation | Feedback Friday

1205: Minor Accusation Major Threat to Reputation | Feedback Friday

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Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the vegan Pastel de Nata to my eggy, Francis Gabriel Mizrahi. Did I say that even remotely? Pretty close. Okay. That was good. Yeah. Francesa,

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think

Jordan Harbinger: is what

Gabriel Mizrahi: it is. You

Jordan Harbinger: have to say Portuguese. You have to speak it like you're really bored.

Ine.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I feel like somebody described it to me as, pretend you're a drunk Russian speaking Spanish. There you go. Which doesn't quite get it, but it gets you in the neighborhood. It does, by the way. Not a huge pastel de nata guy.

Jordan Harbinger: No, me neither. Everyone's like, eat 10 of these things from me. They're so good. I had one.

I was like, okay, it's an egg tart. It's fine. Yeah, it's fine. They love them here. I tried a lot of Portuguese food. I have to say, it's amazing how thin everyone is for how heavy the food is. It's gotta be portion control. 'cause portion control, or just walking everywhere. Well, I had a sandwich that was like thick bread.

A steak. Literally a steak was on it. Then they're like, we need to add ham on the stage. And then they put sausage on [00:01:00] top of the ham and then they put, don't they just dump cheese on it there? There's sausage in there. That's what

Gabriel Mizrahi: FINA is. Yeah, fina is,

Jordan Harbinger: there's another slice of bread. Then they put cheese on it.

And I don't mean like a slice of cheese. I mean the thing is covered in melted cheese and then they dump a sauce on there, which in my case since I had it some like basic bitch place with ketchup. It's more like,

Gabriel Mizrahi: like cheeses, magma coming out of the volcano of the sand ORs.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. And it's also huge. It's not like a small, it's not like a croak ma mature where you're like, okay, it's like a family meal.

So yeah, everyone's thin, they walk everywhere. Portion control chain, smoke cigarettes. Oh

Gabriel Mizrahi: yeah. Don't forget that part. Yeah. All part of a balanced European

Jordan Harbinger: diet. That's right. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. And during the week, we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, undercover agents, former jihadi CEOs, rocket scientists. This week we had journalist Chris Dalby on crime and sports gambling, human trafficking.

Chris is a journalist who investigates criminal activity in the sports world, so match [00:02:00] fixing human trafficking and soccer, which I didn't realize was a thing. But that explains why you see Brazilians playing for like a division six team in Slovakia. Stuff you've never thought about. Super interesting conversation.

Also done live in Portugal. On Fridays though, we share St. 'cause I had to write this trip off, so I had to do it. You know, on Fridays though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, played silly sound bites, and, uh, occasionally meet up in various international locales to take a dues cruise together, live and in person, because if he can't tell, I'm here in Porto.

Visiting Gabe on his last week in Portugal.

Jason Sanderson: Homies home, nice obrigado homie. S. Hey everybody, it's producer Ja here. Uh, just wanted to point out that if you want to skip to the first question and Ms. Jordan and Gabe's story, you can do so by skipping to 12 minutes and 30 seconds.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Enjoy the show. Dude. It's been a minute since we've traveled together.

I'm used to seeing your kata on my computer. That's right. I'm looking at it in person. Three dimensional

Jordan Harbinger: smellovision. [00:03:00] Yeah, it's fun. I gotta fly halfway around the world to make it happen, but it's fun when we can do this. Oh, I'm so sorry

Gabriel Mizrahi: for dragging you to this paradise.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, now you know why I love it here so much.

By the way, when I got off the plane, I was like, oh, we gotta take the red line to go to Porto from Lisbon. And the red line, I guess the word for red is vermilion or some sort of portu. And I was like, how appropriate. Is it that we need to take the Vermilion line? Ver line, that's right. To go meet Gabriel and Porto because it's That's so funny.

Just in case people are not familiar, Gabriel was the proud owner of a Vermilion blouse. Yeah,

Gabriel Mizrahi: I like that. You need to explain that at this point. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think anybody, the red line. That's right. They call it Lio.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I had to tell the joke to Jen. It's somehow not as funny If you don't have the background of the whole show, by the way.

Great space. You got this. Yeah. Not bad, right? Yeah, very. It's a brand new studio. We're just in a brand new studio that no one's ever used. So I had the pleasure of setting up all their equipment for them. We're actually recording live from

Gabriel Mizrahi: the Social Hub, which is my new favorite place in Portea.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, the place is great.

I feel like they took three or four genres of [00:04:00] hospitality and combined them into one place. Totally. So, totally a coffee shop and like a

Gabriel Mizrahi: hotel. I would describe it as if a co-working space, a hotel, a residential apartment building and like a members' only club had a baby. That would be the social lab.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it's exactly, it's like so long a house except you can wear flip flops without feeling like schlub and having someone come talk to you about appropriate attire. That's right. You don't need to wear a leather jacket here. That's Soho House meets early Facebook. That's the general vibe. Yes, I'm a fan.

I walk in to meet you. I see this beautiful breakfast spread in the restaurant. There's a ping pong table, which I would never use that. Uh, but Jen wanted to play at the. Then I see all these people working on laptops. There's a gym now we're sitting in a soundproof studio. I'm, I'm impressed.

Gabriel Mizrahi: They also have a rooftop with a pool that overlooks the city.

So almost every night I go up there and I write while the sun goes down. Pretty great

Jordan Harbinger: spots. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like having a place like this when you're traveling is so clutched. 'cause you don't have an office, you don't wanna be stuck in your apartment all day or set Airbnb and when you're solo traveling, it's, it's just nice to be around other people, even if they're not really your friends.

Of course. Also, the people who work here are so nice. Yeah. I noticed that I got a good vibe from the woman at the [00:05:00] front desk. Yeah. It's not like, remember back in the day staying at youth hostels and everyone's just exhausted to see you and they just don't care. You're like excited to be there and they're like, whatever.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And

Jordan Harbinger: they're never

Gabriel Mizrahi: gonna see you again. No. The people here are cool. Also, they have locations in tons of cities. Amsterdam, Barcelona, Berlin, Paris, so I might just keep joining for a month wherever I go,

Jordan Harbinger: fully endorse that one. I was actually thinking on my way over here the last time we did an international trip together.

Was what? China and North Korea? Literally. I guess so, yeah. Yeah. This is

Gabriel Mizrahi: better than

Jordan Harbinger: North Korea. Yeah, it is. It's just a little better. It's just a couple notches above that open air prison. Yeah. The

Gabriel Mizrahi: breakfast spread is slightly nicer than the one in Pyongyang.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, I agree. Remember the coffee in Pyongyang where they were just like, no, have No.

Did you just say, do you remember the coffee that didn't exist? Yeah, well, they would, if you were the first 10 people you would get, they'd make like one filter coffee that was supposed to be like for a cup of coffee, and they would use it for a hundred people. So by the end it was just water with like a hint of coffee smelled, but then the taste, it wasn't there and they were just like, Nope, we don't have anymore.

Anyway, yesterday was hilarious, [00:06:00] dude. So basically, Jen. And my cousin Lindsay and I all came here together. Our editor, our sound engineer, Jace, who lives in somewhere in the rural Czech Republic. He flew in to meet us all as well. And we've been running around Porto, checking out the sites, trying Portuguese food, playing games, doing walking tours.

Then yesterday we go to this vineyard and you know, it's like wine tasting and port and a boat ride. And Gabe decided he didn't want to go 'cause wine. Makes him sad. And which is the opposite

Gabriel Mizrahi: effect. It does, does it not do that to you? I drink of a glass and I get very tired. Ah. And I get slightly sad. And then the next day I feel like I'm at 50% battery.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's, I mean, drinking is not good for you generally. You decide you need to get out of the city for a day. I did. So the, the vineyard thing was fun. I'm not a wine guy at all, but like, it's a bunch of middle-aged women and me and then like a couple of younger folks and they just got trash. Trash on the vineyard tour.

Yeah. And then we had a boat ride and then the guys who run the boat were like, let's play village people. And like Spice Girls,

Gabriel Mizrahi: which is all, by the way, the things that these tour guides have seen. Mm-hmm. In the Dodo Valley. I [00:07:00] can only imagine they've seen all genres of trash. Yes. From foreigners. I think

Jordan Harbinger: so.

They said we were the most fun group they've had in a while and I don't think they were kidding 'cause they were up dancing with us and laughing and they were like, what do you guys wanna hear next? They're super enthusiastic. Oh, it sounds lit. I'm sorry I missed this. And the other boats weren't doing anything but taking videos of our boat because we were, we were the drugs middle boat.

Yeah. And it's funny 'cause it wasn't like I was with the obviously fun people. I was with this guy who was like a coach for Duke, like a collegiate Duke sports team. I won't say which. He was like a serious guy, like an athletic, and he was high AF on champagne, just lit, like doing the Titanic thing off the front of the boat with his wife, who was like also a hardcore athlete.

And then a bunch thrown out, a great title, a bunch of retired, like librarian looking women who were just like, play Bob Seeger. That's the Target demo. Yeah, vineyard Tours for sure. And then Jen and me and my cousin who were like rapping to Spice Girls and just going nuts. Anyway, you didn't do that, you [00:08:00] hung out with Jason.

You had your little adventure of your own.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I did. So I've wanted, I've been wanting to do a day trip for a minute and I just kept running into reasons to not do it. I would have an appointment or I had to go do another hot yoga class. Mm-hmm. Or whatever. And finally I was like, I really want to do this day trip.

And then Jace had the day before he had to fly home, he couldn't go on your vineyard tour. So I was like, why don't we go together and do a little road trip? So our plan is we're gonna drive to this national park that's in the north northeast of Porto, near the border with Spain. On the way, you have to drive through this town called B Bragga.

So we get to B Bragga, it's like 40 minutes away. Very quiet town. Really beautiful. One of those towns though, where you're like, what do you do in Bragga? And it's like, you can go to this church, you can go to this church, you can go to this church, you can go to 19 churches. And we're like, got it. So we saw one or two churches.

They're stunning. It's very well preserved, Baroque architecture. But really we're just there to get coffee and some breakfast before we go on our big hike. So I parked the rental car in the only available spot I can find, and we walked to the restaurant. I put a little bit of money in the meter and I knew when I put the money in the meter, like [00:09:00] this probably isn't enough time.

Mm-hmm. But this town is so sleepy and nothing happens in Portugal before like nine 30 in the morning. So I'm convinced that we'll just, it's fine. Nothing bad's gonna happen. Go to the restaurant, we have a nice leisurely breakfast. We walk back to the car and when I get back to the car, there is. A gaggle of cops.

So half

Jordan Harbinger: the police department, like half the

Gabriel Mizrahi: police department in this small town is hanging out and there's a tow truck. It's like a whole scene on the street. And I'm like, oh, I wonder what happened. Someone did something, it was an accident. I start to climb into the car and the cops walk up to me and they're like, is this your car?

They're speaking Portuguese, sir, is this your vehicle? Yes. And you're like, and I was like, yeah. And I'm not sure, I don't know if you've ever dealt with this when you're traveling, but I wasn't sure whether to speak Portuguese and kind of like be agreeable and stuff or Or fake it you or fake that. I don't, because then they'll just be like, oh, they'll give us, hopefully.

Yeah. So I kind of leaned into that and I was just speaking English, hoping that they would just be like, oh, he's American. This is gonna be triple the amount of paperwork, whatever this is, and I don't wanna deal with it. You can just go. But they're not giving up. And they're like, [00:10:00] they can't really explain to me what the problem is, but there's a ticket on my windshield.

So I'm like, oh yeah, I didn't put enough money in the machine. We must have just overstayed, but what's the big deal? And they're like, our chief wants to talk to you. You need to come down to the station. I look at Jason, he looks at me like, what's going on? I'm like, I have no idea. Human trafficking. And we've done nothing wrong other than not put enough money in the machine.

So I'm not panicking. Mostly I was actually kind of excited, like this is the most exciting thing happening in Bragga at the moment. For sure. So one of the cops escorts us to the police department, which is about two blocks away. And the whole time we're just like, what is about to happen in here? Mm-hmm.

And when I get to the station, which is the smallest police station I've ever seen in my life, there are these two admin people, a man and a woman behind a plexiglass screen, and another couple cops standing around. And they explained to me that I've parked in a disabled parking space. Sounds like a fairly big emergency for that guy.

It's like a 10 out of 10. Yeah. Yeah. So basically I just had to pay a fine and a citation, but it was a whole production. Took like 30 minutes for them to type up my details into the [00:11:00] computer and then. I paid. They're like, it's gonna be 60 euros, and then you can go and you just have to show the rental car company that you paid the ticket.

So I did. And at the end we were all laughing and we're all friends, and then we walked back to the car and we went on our way. But it was such a bizarre detour in this small town. It was so funny. Definitely the most action they've seen in this town for a while.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. It's one of those things where they could not wait to give a 400 a ticket.

Like we have to file a supplemental form because he doesn't have a passport. Yeah, a national ID card.

Gabriel Mizrahi: They seem to enjoy it. Yeah. So maybe they just don't have enough to do. That could be it. That's small town life for you. But that ate up like an hour, and I had to drop Jace off at the airport back and forth at five o'clock.

So we did not have a lot of time. So we haul as to this national park. We're asking all these people along the way, like, Hey, where's this waterfall? We've heard about this beautiful waterfall. And people are like, I think it's here. I think it's there, but it's unclear where it is. And finally we find this tiny little section of this tiny little town, one of those towns where you can't drive on the roads past a certain point because they're so narrow.

[00:12:00] So we leave the car in a parking lot and we hike into the national park and we hike down this trail, which is stunning. One of the most beautiful places I've seen in Portugal. And we finally found this mythical place, which turned out to not be a waterfall at all, at least not at this time of year. But it was one of those clear water pools and we had the greatest swim of my life.

And I can't tell if it was 'cause the pool was greater or we just had to go through so much drama. Yeah. Yeah. You had to earn it, but it was so nice. So that's what we were doing while you guys were on the vineyard tour. It was pretty great.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, your life is nice. My life is nice. Let's talk to some people whose lives are falling apart, shall we?

What is the first thing out of the mailbag?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. Sometime between 2015 and 2017, I did an online erotic role play with somebody that I didn't know was underage at the time. Oof. We never shared any images or videos at all, just texting as characters. I was unaware that the person was a decade younger than me and told the person sometime after that, we should never do this again.

Time passed and things were fine until a few days ago when the person I role [00:13:00] played with and a private server told the story about what we did, and everyone started calling me a groomer. I never intended to hurt this person, and I was disgusted. Looking back on what we did years ago. I felt like killing myself after thinking about my actions.

I blame the minor's parents for not looking after her as she shouldn't have been online at a very young age. I wanted to speak to the victim and tell my side, but a friend told me that that would make it worse. What should I do? Signed trying to scramble to clear my handle amid this unfortunate scandal.

Jordan Harbinger: Oof. Yeah. What a stressful situation. I'm sorry this happened for both of you. I suppose it just sucks that you didn't know who you were chatting with and she did, or at least she knew how old she was and that put you in a very compromising position. The good news is once you knew she was a minor, you drew a line and you stopped, and that was the right thing to do and confirms for me, sort of based on what you shared anyway, that you're a decent person as per you to get a good handle on your legal options.

Here we reached out to attorney and friend of the show, Corbin Payne. The [00:14:00] first thing Corbin said was that the laws on sexually inappropriate conduct are notoriously vague and broad. They're written that way to enable law enforcement to cast as wide a net as possible in charging people, and Corbin doesn't know if you broke the law or you could be charged with a crime.

He said that depends largely on where you and this person are located. The individual law enforcement officers who might or might not be involved, the individual prosecutors who might or might not be involved, and that's just. Too many variables for him to feel comfortable saying you wouldn't be prosecuted now taking everything you shared with us at face value.

Corbin doesn't think you broke the law because you didn't know she was a minor. That could be used in your favor, but I mean, he'd rather it never come to that. And prosecutors victim advocacy groups, law enforcement, they have successfully lobbied most state legislatures to make it easier to convict somebody in situations like this by making it easier to establish intent for purposes of a conviction.

Also, corbin's experiences that juries of course, hate child exploitation. A competent prosecutor can tell a compelling story about what happened here and generally gross a jury out enough that they [00:15:00] convict on general grossness. I'm not saying you are gross. He just knows plenty of prosecutors who would happily make arguments along these lines and just think nothing of it.

So Corbin's take is let this one go. Don't contact this person. Don't defend your actions. Don't explain it to anyone. Just move on.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And not just legally, but emotionally. Corbin pointed out that the fact that this minor was engaging in this behavior, I mean, who knows what this person was going through, what her life was like, all of that.

But it might be indicative of some difficult things going on in her life. Someone potentially unhealthy things going on in her life. Could be loneliness, could be social anxiety, could be something more serious. You know, maybe she was seeking some kind of escape. Whatever it is, she's talking about this with other people and she's trying to grapple with her life and process certain things that she's done.

And unfortunately that is casting you in a bad light, and that might be unfair. But Corbin would respectfully suggest that this probably isn't about you. It's largely about her. And Corbin doesn't think that you'll help yourself by trying to defend yourself to her or to an audience of total strangers who [00:16:00] do not seem to be.

Very interested in the nuances or the details here, but you also might not even need to do that. So Corbin was pretty emphatic on this point. He sees no upside and he sees a potential for a tremendous downside.

Jordan Harbinger: Also, it's been between eight and 10 years since this happened, and yet no one's knocked on your door.

Corbin said that where a possible criminal charge of abuse or exploitation of a child is concerned, you can't really count on statutes of limitations to save your bacon. But with a civil suit, you might be safer. That's also state specific. However, he said the time period does help. The statute of limitations might not apply, but we still have important rights related to speedy trials.

The ability to access best evidence. The longer the time period between the alleged crime and the arrest and the charge, the more a defendant can argue that the delay in bringing it has prejudiced them. And that's true of both civil and criminal cases. So Corbin would take some comfort in that, but he still wouldn't kick the hornets nest here.

So Corbin's last piece of advice. In the future, if you or anyone listening right now wants to engage in online role playing with somebody. Ask 'em to confirm that [00:17:00] they're at least 18. I don't know how you do that, but maybe do it with somebody you trust. They might lie of course, but Corbin said that can really help with future issues.

I'm really sorry things played out this way, but it's a good cautionary tale. One you've probably learned without paying a significant price and one everyone else can learn from too. The Internet's a crazy place. There's a ton of informational asymmetry out there. People surprise, surprise, often not who they say they are online.

And when it comes to sexual stuff, you just have to take extra precautions to protect yourself and to protect others too. So watch where you step or where you hop on the good foot and do the bad. I don't know this metaphor of totally fell apart. You know what I mean? Don't rub one out without knowing what the other person's about.

How's that for a feedback Friday Chestnut. Uh, get their deets before you skeet. Yeah, there you go. Skeets, yada yada. Yeah. Yeah. As the ancient wisdom foretold, you know what's always legal to take advantage of Gabriel, A relationship where the only minor is the hit to your bank account. Stick around while we skeet some criminally good deals and discounts on [00:18:00] the five products and services that support this show.

So gross. Yep. We'll be right back after we wash our hands.

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Stop waiting for one day to magically appear and start growing today. Go to make headway.com/jordan and use [00:19:00] code Jordan to get 25% off. This episode is also sponsored by Shopify. When I started this podcast, I had to wear every single hat at once. Writer, producer, tech guy, marketer, logo, designer, whatever you name it, it got overwhelming.

Real quick, if I were starting another business now, I'd wanna have something like Shopify because it's basically like having a business partner who actually knows what they're doing. Shopify is the platform behind millions of businesses worldwide, and about 10% of all e-commerce in the US powering everyone from huge names like Mattel and Gym Shark to brands that are just getting off the ground.

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Alright, back to feedback Friday. Okay, what's next?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. Hello, I'm 50 live in Switzerland and am the godmother to my friend's 8-year-old son. Since her divorce a year ago. She's been parenting from a place of guilt, overcompensating with toys and giving the kids free reign. Her son is rude, doesn't listen, and is especially disrespectful to her.

He constantly argues about anything and everything and pulls her into long tantrumy debates that. Often end with him getting his way. He also butts in during adult conversations [00:21:00] and shouts at his mom. When she ignores him last week, she warned him that if he continued, I would probably wanna break off my visit and go home.

Not realizing that that's exactly what he wants. Yeah. Her 3-year-old daughter is now copping her brother, dad. Their dad is in the picture and also spoils the kids rotten with him. They get whatever they want when they want it. She also has a live-in nanny who is a complete pushover. Though I don't have kids of my own, I've helped raise lots of kids.

So I'm not unfamiliar with the chaos, but this is something else I've tried gently talking to her about setting limits and while she agrees, in theory, she always reverts to blaming the divorce and spoiling the kids. Mm-hmm. I dread spending time with them, which feels awful to admit as a godmother, but it's the truth.

How do I talk to her about this in a way that doesn't blow up the friendship? And is it okay to say that I don't wanna spend time with the kids even though she knows that I'm great with kids in general? Signed a frustrated godmother looking for a buffer against this tyrannical little brother [00:22:00] when every intervention just seems to require another.

Jordan Harbinger: Ah, man, this is a tough one, Gabe. There's this general category of letter we receive that I would call having to tell a person the really hard thing. Yeah. In some ways these are the toughest letters for me because I think, as I said last week, I can pitch a good script all day long for a stranger, but these conversations make me sweaty in my own life

Gabriel Mizrahi: too.

I know what you mean. It's really hard to tell somebody you're close with that they need to look at something difficult. But especially in this department

Jordan Harbinger: especially. Yeah. Especially when it's something difficult is their children and how they're raising them. Yeah. It's a bit of a minefield. I don't know if you can have this conversation with someone without risking some difficult feelings.

So my first question for our friend here is. Is this important enough to risk those feelings? Is there truly no authentic way to move forward in the relationship without saying something about her parenting? And it sounds like the answer is no, which I totally understand, especially because you guys are pretty close.

You're this kid's godmother. It's not like this is some random friend you hang out with occasionally at work who's parenting you can completely ignore and [00:23:00] still have a functional relationship. But it's also possible that this friendship is in the process of evolving. If you and this friend have fundamentally different values around parenting, for example, or more importantly around giving and receiving feedback, then maybe you guys just can't be as close and you know, maybe that's okay too, in this case.

True. Maybe this is someone you stay connected to, but you don't go near certain topics like her parenting, or you only hang out with her without the kids. That is an option. And that might not require you to have the full on, hey, you're a bad mother and you're raising two monstrous conversation, but your relationship will suffer as a result in a different way.

You'll be less close. You might feel a little bit like you're holding your tongue inauthentic, whatever word you wanna put on it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So maybe the question is, which kind of weaker relationship do you want? Do you want a relationship where you guys stay connected but you aren't as close because you are cramping around this topic?

Mm-hmm. Or do you want a relationship where you guys might become closer or at least more honest with each other, but you might go through a fight or a bit of a tough period?

Jordan Harbinger: Good question. You know, for me, this comes down to the [00:24:00] quality of the friend and our history together.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Although history is a funny thing, right?

In a way it means you owe someone more honesty, but in another way, history can make it harder to really speak up and tell somebody the truth.

Jordan Harbinger: So true. 'cause you have all those years of not saying something. Yeah. And and of them thinking you hold one opinion and then it's like, bam, surprise. I actually feel this way.

Which can be scary, although I gotta be honest, but the friend probably knows. I'm kind of going through this crap with my kids. They're being kind of crappy. I mean, she even said, if you don't stop, so-and-so's gonna leave. Like she knows. So you're not gonna shock her by saying, by the way, I think your kids are spoiled.

That's a good point. It's not like she's been telling her she's an amazing

Gabriel Mizrahi: mother all this time.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. She has no clue. Look how well behaved they are. No. Like they, it's the elephant in in the room and they're actually talking about it. She's mentioning it. She's just being a little bit opaque with it. And this, our friend here hasn't said what everybody else knows, which is Your kids are crappy.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But the challenging thing is, in our friend here's case, she's already tried gently talking to her about setting limits and her friend is like, no, I know you're right. But then she just goes back to spoiling her [00:25:00] kids. True.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. So on top of everything we're talking about, she also has some evidence that this friend just can't take this feedback in or can't act on it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That might be true. It might also be true that she owes her one final try.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. You want to pitch a script or said I do.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'll give it a go. So maybe you say, listen, I know we've talked about the divorce and the kids a lot recently. I know it's been hard to understand how best to parent them after the split.

Maybe this is the way you want to parent them and that's your choice, of course. But. I'm your friend. I'm godmother to your son, and I feel I owe it to you and to our friendship to tell you that I'm worried about the impact that this kind of parenting is gonna have on your kids. I'm seeing this thing, I'm noticing that I would mention a couple specifics, not to be, you know, like petty and mean, but just as she really remembers what's actually happening.

And maybe you say candidly, I'm sorry to say this, it's a hard thing to say, but it is making me not wanna spend as much time with them, which breaks my heart. That's how bad this has gotten. And you know that I love kids. So for it to get to this point must be a real problem. Now I understand the position you're in.

[00:26:00] You're dealing with a lot of guilt from the divorce. You want the kids to feel loved. You want them to love you. And maybe this seems like the best way to do it. And also they're getting the same thing from their dad. But I gotta tell you, this is not the way to do it because play this out. They're 10, 15, 25, 45.

What kind of people do you think they're gonna become? How do you think they're gonna treat other people? How are they gonna deal with things when they don't get their way right? How is this serving them? Honestly, I've been afraid to bring this up because part of me is worried that it might mean the end of our friendship, and I'm really hoping that that is not the case.

And I'm not here to make you feel bad. I'm just here to help you notice a blind spot. And if you're open to it, maybe we can talk this out and find some new ways of responding to your kids. But I'm gonna follow your lead here. You know where I stand. How is this landing with you? Do you see things in the same way?

Are you open to talking about this? What is this like?

Jordan Harbinger: Nice, again, a script. I'd probably be nervous to say myself, but that's exactly the right approach. My hunch is that this friend is so consumed with guilt and she's so terrified of her own children that she can't stand up to them, which is a real problem.

Jason Sanderson: Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: But it [00:27:00] comes from some deep seated stuff in her. So if she engages with you, she's willing to talk about this. I think you're gonna have to get into that stuff in order to make progress. Why is she so wracked with guilt after the divorce? Why is she so afraid to set limits with her kids if she needs to be liked by them, which I get, of course, all parents have that to some degree.

It's not insane to want your kids to love you, but if your main agenda is getting your kids to like you and forgive you, what the

Gabriel Mizrahi: heck is that about? No. That is a really interesting observation because we all know that parents have to risk disappointing and frustrating their children sometimes, right?

But if her central need is to be liked and approved of by them, then by spoiling them in this way, she's actually not necessarily doing this to make them feel better. She's doing it to make herself feel better to fulfill this need that she has

Jordan Harbinger: slash to avoid the opposite feeling, to avoid having to feel unliked or punished or confirmed as bad somehow

Gabriel Mizrahi: is even more problematic somehow.

Because another part of being a parent is being able to hold those difficult feelings and then still love your children, right? To bear the feeling of, you know, like, I'm so mad at [00:28:00] you mom, or I'm not talking to you dad, or whatever positions kids can get into when they're young, but still stay connected to them, which is actually very crucial for children to feel.

But if this woman can't do that, then she has a lot of work to do, and that work is probably a lot deeper than a friend can help her with. Right? Probably the kind of work best done in therapy probably, but that's up to her to decide if she wants to go there. So you don't have to have this conversation.

But I think it is probably the right thing to do. And the thing we keep coming back to is all big conversations have the potential to shake a relationship, and some people unfortunately, can be so shaken or so wounded, or so ashamed or so angry, whatever it is. They can't sustain the relationship anymore, but these conversations also have the potential to deepen those relationships,

Jordan Harbinger: right?

Nothing ventured nothing gained, so to speak. Exactly. You're also gonna have to adjust your expectations here because even if you get through to her, you can't parent her kids for her. You can't be there every second of the day. You can't change her fundamentally. Even some progress would be a win here, but it [00:29:00] might not look exactly like what you would do in her shoes.

I hope your friend can take in what you have to say, or at least I hope you can make peace with a different level of closeness with her and good luck. You can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Use a descriptive subject line that makes our job a lot easier. If your ex is weaponizing the legal system against you in a bid for manipulation and control, you're trying to help your friend flee the Srilanka Mafia, or your mother-in-law is insisting on bringing a sex offender around your children, whatever's got you sweating lately.

Hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. And by the way, if you haven't signed up yet, come check out our newsletter, wee bit wiser. This is a bite-sized gem from a past episode from us to you delivered to your inbox on most Wednesdays. It's a two minute read, even less.

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Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a 25-year-old guy from the UK and I live across the country from my family. My 21-year-old brother [00:30:00] recently moved back in with our mother after living with our dad for a couple of years.

We knew he was in a bad place mentally, and I had hoped that moving back in with my mom would give him a more supportive environment and a chance to turn things around. I recently met up with my mom and came to learn that things are a lot worse than originally suspected. He's depressed, refuses to leave the house or do basic adult things like going to the bank because he is too anxious and outright refuses to try engaging with therapy or any sort of helpline.

He's also apparently been getting involved with a questionable person online, someone who's previously been in trouble with the police, but he won't share any more information about what or why. Just that a quote unquote wasn't a big deal and quote unquote wasn't his fault. He claims he doesn't even know this person's name, that whatever messaging service they use as people use code names so they can't get each other in trouble.

If anything were to happen. This raises so sketchy man. So dark. Right? What discord server are they hanging out in?

Jordan Harbinger: Or like [00:31:00] shady, crazy, dark web telegram esque nonsense. I don't

Gabriel Mizrahi: wanna know where they're hanging out and what they're talking about, but it can't be good,

Jordan Harbinger: right? No. You code names so you can't get in each other in trouble.

Yeah, like not code names because it's the internet and it's the nineties code names so that you have plausible deniability for talking to a criminal who's planning a criminal action and you can't out your co-conspirators.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You think it's the same platform as the guy from question one. I mean, this is, there's no good can come of this.

This raises a lot of red flags, but he won't stop talking to this person as they're the only one who understands him. I knew my brother had previously seen a psychotherapist, so when I asked my mom if he was currently speaking to anybody, my mom revealed that the previous therapist informed her that they had to speak to the police about my brother, although they wouldn't disclose what it was about.

There's obviously something illegal in the mix, but we don't know what. The most concerning thing is that he said that the only reason he didn't act on whatever this is, is because he doesn't want to go to jail.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:32:00] Yeah, that's worrisome. I wonder what happened there. But just to be clear, this, this shady person he is talking to online in this incident with the police, those are two different things, right?

It

Gabriel Mizrahi: sounds like it, but I'm not totally sure. Either way, it sounds like he's. Involved with some shady stuff, with some questionable people.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, yeah. Things have to be pretty bad for a therapist to be like, okay, well I have to call the police. I'm a mandated reporter. That's not merely suicidal ideation.

'cause I think then they have to call, that's like a psychiatric thing probably. This is like he was talking about killing someone or hurting someone. Right. Or it can't even just be a regular old crime. It has to be hurting someone else. I believe so. Unless the laws in the UK different. That's true. Maybe it's different there.

Yeah, but probably similar.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. I would be so wor if this were my sibling, it's actually worse that they don't know exactly what happened. I agree. Now they have to just wonder and speculate.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Or the mom knows and is like, 'cause he would've been a minor then. Right. You're not gonna tell your adult patient's mom something.

The mom probably knows and is just like, I'm not gonna share this 'cause it's [00:33:00] too dark and I don't want to admit that this actually happened.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh man, that's possible. But it's also possible that the therapist couldn't tell her and she truly has no idea. But then the question is, why are you not in a dialogue with your own child Yes.

About what they're really doing?

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. Why did the police come over and ask you a bunch of questions? Because you told your therapist.

Gabriel Mizrahi: If the son is like, I don't have to tell you. I don't want to tell you. I just didn't do it. 'cause I don't wanna go to jail. It's like, no, you're gonna explain to me. Yeah. What is going on?

You're living

Jordan Harbinger: in the basement with no job talking online to criminals all day. You owe me an explan. Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Due to the aforementioned mental health issues, he's also been self-harming and is possibly suicidal. And there's concern that if he were to lose access to these online outlets, even if they're toxic and harmful, he might not cope.

I get the impression that he's so deep in this pit of misery that it's become familiar and safe. I've had a history of real mental health issues myself, so I can absolutely understand what that's like. But we have very different approaches to life and our challenges. I've given all the advice I can think of in this area, and he seems to only sink deeper.

My mother lives with [00:34:00] her partner now and they have a great relationship, but because my brother never tried to form any sort of relationship with him, it results in a challenging dynamic. I think my mom's partner can see the situation more objectively, so when my brother acts out, he's more likely to draw a firm line than my mom.

I know he just wants the best for her, but when the best thing for her may be drawing a strict boundary with my brother, the situation becomes a lot more difficult. My mom shared that she feels stuck, that she doesn't want my brother to drive her and her partner apart, but she feels like she has to choose between them and that as a family, she has an obligation to be loyal to my brother.

Since my mom met her partner, she's been so much happier and more fulfilled, and I would be deeply upset if my brother's issues were to break them apart. She's had a difficult life and absolutely deserves happiness, especially as she's getting closer to retirement age. How do you help somebody who doesn't want to be helped?

What's the line between being compassionate and enabling? How do you do what's right, even when it might be painful? And how can my mom navigate wanting to do what's [00:35:00] best for my brother without compromising her own wellbeing and relationships? Signed, spotting some trouble and totally puzzled. By the way, my brother struggles with his mumble bubbles.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh man, what a sad story. This is pretty intense. First of all, as you can tell, my heart aches for your brother. He's clearly troubled. He's going through some very painful stuff, and he is very hard to reach right now. I'd imagine it's pretty tough to be him, but my heart really aches for you and your mom.

You obviously love him a lot. You wanna help and you're just hitting wall after wall while also learning some very disturbing stuff. You guys are in a really tough place. Once again, we wanted to talk to an expert about all this. So we reached out to Dr. Aaron Margolis, clinical psychologist and friend of the show.

Effin' Doctor Clip: I'm also known to the people who know me the best. As the,

Jordan Harbinger: and we started by asking her this really big question you've posed. How do you help someone who just does not want to be helped? And Dr. Margolis was pretty honest with us. She said, the short answer is you don't, because you can't. Your question [00:36:00] comes from a place of love and also of anxiety, wanting to exert some control over a situation that is out of control.

But sadly, as much as we want to, we just cannot control other people. And the discomfort of that can be very overwhelming. Dr. Margolis actually shifted the question a little bit. She said that what you're actually probably contending with here is what you'd have to feel within you if you stopped trying to do the impossible, or at least tried to stop someone who, in so many ways is saying, yeah, I don't want your help.

I'm not ready to work on these things. Now I know how tough that is. You don't just wanna ditch your brother. He's suffering. It's so hard. But you're also suffering by trying so hard to help someone who clearly does not want to take any advice. So, Dr. Margolis feeling was, you might wanna sit with that and just see what comes up.

When you let go of the idea of trying to save your brother on your own. Would you feel like a failure? Would you feel like you're not being a supportive brother? What does it mean to be a supportive brother? Would you feel like you're not holding up your family responsibility? Those questions might be the real work you need to do right now.

As we talk about [00:37:00] all the time, there's probably gonna be some grief around your brother going through this period grief that you might in fact be staving off by working so hard to help him when he isn't ready to help himself. Dr. Margolis pointed out that if you let go. You'd probably have to grieve the possibility that your brother might continue to struggle and grieve the consequences of what that might look like, even if the consequences become severe.

I really hope it doesn't come to that. I'm not saying you can't intervene if things get serious. Like if he's gonna harm himself, maybe you have grounds to have him hospitalized, but you also have to understand that that would not be your fault. And even then he'd still have to build on that support and make the lasting changes himself.

And she says that knowing how difficult this is to do, how painful it is to watch someone you love suffer and not be able to do much for them, but to quote her here sometimes trying so hard to control someone else's behavior, trying so hard to help when somebody isn't open enough to receive that help.

That can sometimes be a distraction, a way for us to avoid dealing with our own feelings and ultimately finding some acceptance around what this person has chosen to [00:38:00] do with their life. Oof.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, just a, that's a banger of a Dr. Margolis quote right there. Now you're asking another great question, also a feedback Friday motif, which is, where is the line between being supportive and enabling?

Yeah. One of my favorites always confusing, right? Dr. Me's take was, there's no hard and fast rule about this. Every situation is different, but based on what you shared with us, she did feel that most of what you and your mom are doing for your brother these days, although it comes from a very good place, it does sound like enabling for the simple reason that your brother basically doesn't have to do anything to change for your mom to continue taking care of him.

Now, if your mom were like, okay, you can live here at home. You have to go to therapy, you have to see a doctor, you gotta get a job. You can't just stay in your room chatting with people online for hours about probably criminal activity that the police are now getting involved in. And if you don't do those things, here are the consequences.

And I'm ready to stand by those consequences that would not be enabling. But it sounds to me like she's given him a perpetual soft landing without really having to be [00:39:00] accountable or a change in any meaningful way.

Jordan Harbinger: Right. That's less support and it's more of it's coddling. Is that too strong a word? No.

No. She's coddling

Gabriel Mizrahi: in a way. She is coddling him. But here's the thing, I'm sure that mom is going through her own process parallel to her friend of wanting to love her son, wanting to stabilize him, not wanting to abandon him. Probably freaking out that if she doesn't do things this way, he might hurt himself or end up in jail or whatever.

And this seems like the only way to do it, but as a result. He's not really experiencing any consequences or healthy pressure, no consequences to neglecting his mental health or to engaging in this sketchy stuff online.

Jordan Harbinger: I'm still so curious about that whole thing, but anyway, I'm just not sure what they're supposed to do about who the brother talks to online.

I would hope

Gabriel Mizrahi: that that experience with the police spooked him enough to not engage with people like that on the internet. But who knows? It doesn't sound like it. I mean, they're still talking. Just one more thing that they can't control in this situation. I mean, short of canceling their Vodafone service and stealing his iPhone or whatever, right.

Not gonna happen as an adult. Yeah. Which again, so hard to sit with that. On the [00:40:00] flip side though, I will say it does sound like he's hungry for connection and community, and he's finding it with the wrong people. In a way that might be a good sign that he doesn't want relationship.

Jordan Harbinger: That's true. But I also wonder if this is part of why he's resisting therapy.

Oh, you mean 'cause the last therapist had to report him. Yeah. We can't know for sure. I just wonder if maybe the brother doesn't trust therapist. Now after the last one called the cops, it's, look, that's no excuse for not going of course. But it, it might explain his resistance.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Bottom line. We all feel that it's not your job alone to save your brother, to save your family.

The best thing you can do is support your brother appropriately and support your mother while she goes through this. That's it. For sure.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. This is her house. This is her son. She needs to find her own way with him. God, I feel bad for the guy she's dating. He wants to sort of become a father figure to this guy and can't do it and she's just, he's just watching his girlfriend, his partner's kid flush himself down the toilet.

It's

Gabriel Mizrahi: interesting, he's kind of

Jordan Harbinger: handling

Gabriel Mizrahi: the son better than

Jordan Harbinger: anybody. Yeah. He's the only, sorry. He's the only response like parent who's acting appropriately in this situation, but

Gabriel Mizrahi: you know, so much easier for him to, [00:41:00] well, it is

Jordan Harbinger: easier. He doesn't have this lifetime of caring for this kid of, he's not visualizing a little baby that mother had in his arms, which is what she's doing.

He's like, you're a grown ass man. Get get outta here and get a freaking job.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Look, the best way to support everybody is to just listen and be present and acknowledge what your mom is going through. You can validate how hard it is for her to know how to help your brother, and then maybe when the time is right, you can gently encourage her to consider some new approaches, maybe some new policies, maybe some new ways to balance this responsibility she feels for your brother with her responsibility to herself.

And same with your brother. You know, I'm so sorry, bro. I know you're going through it. It hurts me to see you suffering like this. What is this like for you right now? I can't fix this for you, but if you wanna talk this out, if you wanna find some new ways forward, I'm here for that.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. He really does need to go back to basics here, as for your mom and her own wellbeing, her own relationship that's raising the stakes on all this.

But it's interesting here too, you might be taking on more than you should. Dr. Margolis said if you were her client, the question she'd be asking is, why is your [00:42:00] mom struggle, your problem to solve? Where does that sense of responsibility come from? Look, I get caring about your mom. I get wanting her to be happy to enjoy her relationship.

I love that you want those things for her. It's super sweet. But again. I don't mean to repeat myself, but if, if those things matter to her, which I assume they do, then she has to learn how to prioritize them, how to make sure all of her relationships are aligned in a way that makes them possible and honors her own needs.

I'm also wondering where is dad in all this? You said your brother was living with him now it sounds like he's your mom's problem 'cause dad kind of gave up maybe. I don't know if it's dad's responsibility to solve either, but I'm just curious to know why all of this seems to fall on you guys anyway. We all get it.

You wanna help your family, of course you wanna see everyone happy. Of course you wanna see them succeed, but you can't do this for your brother and you can't do this for your mom.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, that is the theme Dr. Margo has kept coming back to. She actually shared a little gem she really likes with us. She said there's an important difference between caring about and caring on behalf of.

Mm. Caring [00:43:00] about looks like I really want my mom to be happy. I don't want her to compromise a relationship for my brother. I'm worried about her. I want the best for her. I'm here to listen and you know, gently support up to a point. Caring on behalf of is different. That's, I want my brother to stop suffering.

I want my mom to do what's best for her. So I'm gonna get involved. I'm gonna take on these feelings myself. I'm gonna change my behavior to help other people manage their outcomes. Obviously, that second form of caring, that's when you get sucked into the suffering yourself. And I think it might potentially be part of an enmeshment in your family, and that is rarely, if ever truly effective.

So, Dr. Margo's general take is, the answer you're looking for here is really just new boundaries externally with your mom and brother to know when and how, and and how much to help them. And also internally with yourself, to keep an eye on this impulse to get overly involved and all the templates and history and feelings that are informing that impulse, those internal boundaries are probably the most important.

That's the line that's gonna help you go, okay, this is [00:44:00] really sad, this is really distressing. I feel this urge to jump in and save everyone, but that's probably gonna prolong the situation. It's gonna cause me more suffering, so I'm gonna recognize that urge, but I'm not gonna act on it. Here's the good news.

Jordan Harbinger: You're asking, how do you do what's right, even when it might be painful, which tells me that you know that encouraging your mom to set some higher standards, drawing some boundaries, that's the right thing to do, and Dr. Margolis pointed out that it might in fact be the path to helping, even if it feels more passive, because then your brother might be motivated to get help.

As Dr. Margolis put it, sometimes we have to shift our definition of what it means to help. Sometimes just listening, validating, being present with that person and their experience, sitting with them and making space for their pain is actually helping. It doesn't always feel productive, so we don't think of it as helpful, but sometimes it's the most helpful stance that you can take.

I'm sorry, you and your mama going through this, my heart goes out to your brother. I hope he gets to a place where he's ready to seek out some help and really engage with it. Sending you and your family a big hug and wishing you all the best. Big thanks to Dr. Margolis for her wisdom [00:45:00] and advice. Dr.

Margolis is seeing patients in Los Angeles and virtually throughout California. You can learn more about her and her approach@drerinmargolis.com. Speaking of dodgy online personalities, trying to seduce you into their schemes. Now a word from our criminally generous sponsors. We'll be right back.

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If that doesn't work, email us. We're happy to dig up codes for you because it is that important that you support those who support the show. Now, back to feedback [00:48:00] Friday.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Alright, what's next? Dear Jordan and Gabe, I had an unconventional childhood. My parents split when I was six, and the fallout impacted my family and me for many years.

My mom, a talented artist, struggled with alcohol work and relationships. Still has a difficult relationship with money and work. My dad is an entrepreneur whose career was very chaotic when I was younger, but who ultimately succeeded and is a master at his craft. I remember feeling scared about money all the time and like I didn't have a safe home or even a safe person to talk to.

Yeah, that's tough. I'm sorry to hear that. When I was younger, I dreamed of starting my own business and I thought I would write books, so I studied creative writing, but I haven't ever really felt able to commit. I met my ex when I was 18 and he was 20, and I took it on myself to steer the ship, making decisions about where we would live, and always trying to get a good job to steady us.

I was floundering though and struggled with my mental health in my twenties [00:49:00] right up to last year. Then my 17 year relationship, which felt like the only achievement in my life, broke down last year. Since then, I've been rebuilding my mental, emotional and physical health. I've spent many years in therapy.

I feel worlds away from the traumatized person I once was. Now I think I'm really ready to work on this. I'm seeing an amazing new partner. I started a new job and I'm doing so much better than I was, but I can't avoid the fact that my career never really took off. And at 37, the stakes feel incredibly high to now get this right.

I've had over 30 jobs in my life. Freelanced, blogged, worked in marketing, hospitality, and higher education, and have a BA and an MA in creative writing. I've gone fairly wide, but not deep. My current role blends a lot of my skills in an industry I feel passionate about and I'm enjoying managing more people in before.

But I worry about the long-term trajectory of this line of work, whether it's lucrative work-life balance, whether jobs are [00:50:00] plentiful. It's work that I'm passionate about, but it can be stressful and there's a lot of churn after feeling unfulfilled in my last workplace. I'm still grappling with so much self-doubt and any setbacks can have me questioning this role and where it's taking me.

I desperately wish I had a steady, stable, fulfilling role that felt like it was building on what I've done before towards something meaningful. I see people who are older than me who are confident, self-assured, and financially secure. I also see people who are struggling in what should be their golden years, and this fills me with dread.

When I'm 70. I would like to be able to talk about the work I've done with pride. I would like to spend the rest of my working life deepening skills, experience, and expertise. I would also like to be financially independent and secure and responsible with money. There's also so much I want to do aside from work.

I'd like to write books, grow a garden, continue to nurture my relationships, learn languages, travel. In short, I would like to thrive, but how can I do these things without the money and security that a [00:51:00] steady career would bring? How do I choose a career and what if I make a bad choice? How do I forgive myself for not resolving this issue sooner?

And how do I stop the shame and fear that I feel around this? From impacting my progress, my new relationship, and all my relationships, including the one with myself signed, moving my career along when all I do is prolong because I'm still embarrassed that it took me this long.

Jordan Harbinger: First of all, thank you for sharing so much of yourself with us.

I gotta say your grasp of what led you here, your childhood, your needs, these decisions, this urgency, the shame, all of it. It's really impressive. I can hear that you've done a lot of work. I know that you feel like you're behind, but we're all dealing with different challenges. We all need to go through our own process to get where we're going, even if it takes longer than we'd like.

So I know it's trite, but as much as possible, I would trust that you're exactly where you're supposed to be. And anyway, even if you can't, that's the only place you can begin. So might as well accept and forgive yourself so you can focus. So my first thought is, I know this childhood did a number on you.

The traumas and [00:52:00] templates that get created when we're young, they can be pretty hard to shake. The fear you describe is pretty real, obviously. I'm sorry you didn't feel safe. I'm sure that's playing a big role in all this, but I wanna share a couple things with you. First, the traumas and patterns. They can be healed, they can be rewritten.

There might not be a day where you feel completely free of them, but you do not have to be held back by them in the same way forever. And second, this one's a little more controversial, but whatever here goes, it's really important to have a good handle on your story. It's also important to not hold onto it too strongly, to not allow yourself to be defined by it.

In other words, to not move through the world with this dominant narrative of like, mom, my mom was like this, and my dad was like that. So these are the only ways I have of managing my life, and these are the only two opportunities available to me. You know, we're big fans of getting to the roots of things, but you gotta walk that line.

The second thing I wanna talk about is this theme of commitment, of feeling confident enough to go, okay, this is what I want. I'm ready. I'm going for it. Look, I totally get wanting to feel ready to make the leap and choose a path that you stick [00:53:00] with, especially at this stage where the stakes feel higher, you have less time to play around.

But I also wonder if wanting to feel able to commit before you really explore something, if that might be just one more way to avoid having to commit. Like, I'll, I'll commit when I feel ready to commit. And then you wait and you wait for that feeling. But it just never fully comes because in reality, this is my experience anyway.

A lot of the feeling of being able to commit comes from, you know, actually committing. Right? It's in the doing that we find our, our life force and our conviction, right? Our excitement, the feeling that we're on the right path. It's hard to feel that in advance,

Gabriel Mizrahi: right? Are we ever truly ready for anything?

I, I mean, at a certain point you just gotta decide to jump in and learn as you go and deal with the highs and lows, which also means risking, feeling frustrated, being challenged. Mm-hmm. Being scared, being confused. All of the things that come with picking something and sticking with it. So. I also wonder if waiting to feel ready mm-hmm.

To commit might also be a way to avoid those feelings.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, man. A hundred percent. That would be another thing to keep an eye on, not [00:54:00] inadvertently creating yet another obstacle by waiting for a time when you just magically feel totally ready. I'm also interested in what came up in your relationship, although I'm, I'm not sure exactly how that played a role.

I just find it interesting that you were the steady, responsible one in that relationship. Even though you were struggling yourself, and it sounds like you kept you and your partner stable. That was really important to you. To be fair, I think we need to know so much more to understand what to make of that.

And it's not exactly what you're writing it about. It's not, but also maybe it is. Yeah, maybe it is. I mean, look, I do hear some glimmers of your childhood in that relationship, but I look, I'm sure she's taking care of all that in therapy.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The other interesting detail in her letter is this thing about how any setback can have her questioning her role and where it's taking her.

When I hold that alongside that thing we just talked about, how waiting to feel ready to commit might have been a way to avoid being in touch with certain feelings. Feelings by the way, engendered by certain wounds, I would imagine. I also wonder if maybe adversity is a little hard for her sometimes. You know, when things are [00:55:00] humming along, she's okay, she's good.

When she hits a roadblock though, it might bring up some difficult thoughts like, why am I even doing this? You know, where is it taking me? Is this really my path?

Jordan Harbinger: Those might be legitimate questions though, right? Maybe this isn't her path. Maybe when things get hard, she realizes she's struggling with something she just doesn't truly care about.

Could totally be the case. It could

Gabriel Mizrahi: also be the case that those thoughts are a way to flee the feeling of struggling in general, and she would find a version of that struggle in anything she does.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's a good point. So like instead of going, man, things are hard right now, this is part of the process.

Let me work through it. Her brain might be going, man, things are hard right now. This can't possibly be my path. I need to make a change and then I won't have to deal with this feeling.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly. The tricky thing is that it might be both. She might in fact be in the wrong career for her, and she might struggle to stay connected to her work and maintain her confidence when she's challenged, as so many of us do.

Me included. That is something she's gonna have to parse for herself. You know, when is it an authentic voice telling her, okay, it's time to make a change. And when is it a [00:56:00] form of denial or avoidance?

Jordan Harbinger: You're also touching on something else I want her to know, which is that her true path. Right. Another job, writing, learning languages, even gardening, that's, it's not gonna solve this problem in time.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No, it is not. Good point. And in fact, pursuing something you truly care about, take it from me. I've done it. Mm-hmm. And we've talked about this on the show, it can sometimes make these setbacks feel even worse.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Right. 'cause it's not just some job you're doing to survive. It's your love, it's your calling.

It's not entirely healthy, but we do tend to identify with this kind of work even more. Right. I'm a podcaster. I'm not a guy who works as a barista and then also does all these other things that I care about more. So it's part of my identity. I'm not, look, I'm not trying to stress you out further. I just don't want you to pin all your hopes of never feeling self-doubt or confusion or anxiety or demoralization on the perfect job because no job can give you that.

I'll tell you man, when I started doing podcasting as a job, it was awesome and it still is. But you know what? It's also a job. There's a lot of stuff I do and I go, I don't like this part of the thing that I have to do. It just happens. Yeah. And it's [00:57:00] never gonna go away. And it's actually like part of the whole thing that makes the other stuff that's good feel good, but that's a different subject.

This is more about continuing to do the great work you're doing while you work through the dips and challenges of your career, using your job to shine a light on those parts of your personality that are being exposed when things get tough. So my question for you there is, what is it specifically about these setbacks that are throwing you for a loop?

Is it that they make you go, screw this, why am I putting up with this for something I don't even care about or. Is it that they make you go? The feeling of struggling or being blocked feels so bad. I just want out, so let me try to answer your questions directly here. It's hard to make art and garden and learn fricking Italian or whatever and travel without some degree of money and security.

So if all these things are calling to you, you're gonna have to get your career in order. Okay? Also, you don't need to pursue all of them to be happy. And actually, this is just occurring to me. I wonder if wanting to do so many different things and not only wanting to do them but thrive, which is great, a little abstract [00:58:00] if, maybe that's another version of the whole all commit when I feel like I'm ready to commit thing.

Uh, yes. Another way to make it hard to, well, well to commit, right? Because there are so many things you wanna do, and that's paralyzing for anybody. Even somebody who's already got every, you know, all their security blanket or whatever together. I'm not saying you can't enjoy all these things if you really want to, but the reality is you can't work a full-time job and learn Portuguese and garden and write the great American novel and travel the world as a digital nomad, or whatever the hell your dreams are.

Super exciting. I love that you wanna explore all these things. But practically speaking, you can only do one thing at a time, at least well enough to really enjoy it. Okay? So if this desire to do all these things is keeping you stuck, it's time to find a new relationship with them. Prune your list. See what I did there?

Oh, little gardening humor. Mm-hmm. For it. Good one, Papa. Yeah. Thank you. Just choose one thing for now. Hit pause on all the hobbies and put most of your energy into the job search. As for choosing a career, the best thing you could do right now well [00:59:00] is two things. First, pay attention to the parts of jobs that you've had in the past.

You've had what? 30. Pay attention to the parts that you actually like that lit you up. Get clear on which responsibilities and experiences and problems you genuinely enjoyed being a part of. Second, start talking to as many people as possible. Make the conversations. Fact finding missions. Brainstorming sessions involve other people in your search.

Six Minute Networking course talks about reaching out to people, getting, you know, informational interviews, six minute networking.com. It's a free course notion, Annigan. Dive into that stuff. You can binge it. People are gonna be your best portal to new opportunities. Having a North star that is great, so you're not just throwing darts in every direction, but there's also some value in being open and curious about other things.

And the second part of your question, what if I make a bad choice? Well, if you invest in yourself and you really consider this decision, you probably can't make a terrible choice. And if you choose a job that isn't ultimately for you, you make a change, that's okay. People do it all the time. [01:00:00] But I think that question is also meaningful in context.

You're putting enormous pressure on yourself to get this right. I appreciate the stakes, but this can be very paralyzing if you're hoping to get into a career you can do for the next 30 years. This is gonna be nerve wracking.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, it's a good point. There might be a glimmer of that fantasy we were just talking about in this idea too.

Mm-hmm. Like, if she can just make the right choice, then she won't have to deal with being dissatisfied or restless or confused or having to go through this chapter again where she's reconsidering things. But the reality is that you probably will no matter which path you choose, and that might reduce the pressure on making the perfect choice whatever the perfect choice means.

Jordan Harbinger: As for forgiving yourself for not resolving the issue sooner. I, I don't have a quick fix here. We all beat ourselves up for various things. We did various things we didn't do. Welcome. Your midlife crisis is starting early. Look, you're ahead of the game. I think forgiveness gets easier when you're working on the issue, honestly, when you're in a process, because then those quote unquote mistakes, they just start to feel like necessary stepping stones on the way to your true path.

They are the path, [01:01:00] and then you can have more compassion for yourself. But look, if you can't forgive yourself, at least try to accept yourself. Self-forgiveness is really tricky. I, I find that I go in and out of it as well, but acceptance, Hey, that I can do acceptance. That just means, okay, this is where I am right now.

This is what I'm working with. That might actually be all you need. So my overall thought for you is the shame you feel, the fear, you feel these layers of self-consciousness, they're perfectly normal, and you need to let go of the idea that you need to fix them or you need to stop them before you can act.

Nobody's totally free from fear and shame, dude. They act anyway. They build up their capacity to feel those feelings and still make choices. That's it. That's the big secret. So I hope that gives you some new ways to move through this transition. Analysis is part of it for sure, but don't let your analysis delay you even further.

You'll learn far more about yourself by taking action and playing and exploring, knowing there's no such thing as a perfect choice that will help you avoid any setbacks or [01:02:00] confusion going forward. Process over destination. That's the name of the game. Sending you a big hug and wishing you all the best.

Go back and check out Chris Dalby on crime and sports. If you haven't done so yet, show notes and transcripts are on the website, but you know what else is on the website? Advertisers' discounts and ways to support the show, namely at jordanharbinger.com/deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram.

You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's over on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi. This show is created an association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tadas Sidlauskas, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer.

Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Ditto Corbin Pain. Dr. Margolis input is general psychological information based on research and clinical experience. It's intended to be general and informational in nature. It does not represent or indicate an established clinical or professional relationship with those inquiring for guidance.

And big thanks to the Social Hub for hosting us today. You can learn more about the social hub and check out their locations around [01:03:00] the world@thesocialhub.co. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today.

In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn and we'll see you next time. What if the next 20 years bring more change than the last 200 and we're not remotely ready for it? Jamie Metzel joins me to unpack the mind blowing collision of ai, biotech and genetics that's already reshaping what it means

JHS Clip: to be human.

If you look at all of the scientific progress of the last hundred years, and you compare that to the a hundred years before that and a hundred years before that, we see this rapid acceleration because these systems are so complex. We need a language and understanding the language of biology, which already exists for us to understand it.

We need these capabilities and AI with all these other technologies [01:04:00] will be that. And as we as humans and as our machines learn more about how to learn more, learning becomes possible, acceleration begets acceleration. If we think this is a conversation about technology, we're gonna get lost. This is a conversation about humanity, and it's a conversation about values.

It's about who are we as? We guide these revolutions, but humans have co-evolved with our technologies for thousands of years and more likely tens of thousands of years. So it's not us versus our technology. Our technology is us. And the question is, what's the best way for us to co-evolve in a healthy, sustainable way, but we need to know what we're trying to achieve.

Every single person has a role in deciding how these technologies are used or not used as individuals and as a community. And that needs to guide us going forward. This is about all of our future.

Jordan Harbinger: To hear more about the breakthroughs coming faster than [01:05:00] we can comprehend and why we urgently need to figure out how to steer the ship, check out episode 1014 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.