1294: Sister’s off Her Meds, Now She Faces the Feds | Feedback Friday

1294: Sister’s off Her Meds, Now She Faces the Feds | Feedback Friday

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Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the old Nature Valley granola bar box, hiding the crumpled wrappers of these dank edibles of life drama, Gabriel Mizrahi.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Great reference.

Jordan Harbinger: I thought you would like that. If you have no idea what we're talking about, go back three weeks and listen to the first letter.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I am the keeper of the feedback Friday wrappers, aren't I?

Jordan Harbinger: You are. You're our dues cruise stash box. And just like the husband in that letter, we'll keep you on top of the fridge, Gabe, way back in. You know in the back, man. No one's gonna find you there, man.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Except anyone who's looking apparently.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. I love that.

That guy thought, oh, I'm just gonna stash these in here, and I'll totally remember to eventually throw them away. This is such a classic stoner move. Geez. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life.

And those around you. And our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we [00:01:00] have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, astronauts, Russian spies, former Jihadi music moguls. This week we had psychologists and neuroscientists, Dr. Abigail Marsh on psychopathy and altruism.

Kind of a weird combo at first glance, but we talked about how both of these. Are about how we process fear and just like there are extreme psychopaths, there are also extreme altruists. We also took an interesting diversion into child psychopathy. Super interesting conversation. This is a two-parter. We also did a skeptical Sunday last Sunday on psychic detectives or air quotes, psychic detectives.

On Fridays though, we take listener letters, offer advice, play silly sound bites, and generally feel our way benighted through the dark thicket of your most perplexing conundrum.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Jordan, speaking of being benighted and wandering through dark thickets, you just got back from Lake Tahoe where some crazy stuff happened this week.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I did. Well, we were just a few days in the mountains with the family, brought the kids. We were gonna go, you know, snowboarding or something, and realized juniper was kind of too young. And [00:02:00] spent the time doing family stuff instead.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Too young for skiing, you mean? Right?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Too young to do a ski lesson on her own.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So for anyone who doesn't know Lake Tahoe is, it's on the border between California and Nevada, right?

Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. And this week there was a deadly avalanche, which is heartbreaking 'cause they had a drought and then they had this intense heavy snowfall and something like 6, 7, 8 people died in this avalanche.

I was reading about it and I was just thinking, first of all, I, every time you've gone to Tahoe, you, you've gone to go snowboarding, so I assumed that you were going snowboarding this time, and I texted you and you're like, oh no, we're just going to chill. And I was like, oh, thank God. 'cause like in some weird alternate timeline, that was you and I was like, what would that have been like if my co-host and BF.

Dive in an avalanche

Jordan Harbinger: like Yeah, a scary way to go.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Wild to think about

Jordan Harbinger: it. I mean, the thing is with these, I don't want to scare people away from gonna Tahoe or for skiing. These people were in the back country, which is, you do it. It's essentially, it's not, you're not at a ski resort getting killed by an avalanche.

I [00:03:00] mean, I'm sure it happens, but it's even more rare than back country stuff. Of course, this is like you are an expert skier. You hire guides, which these people did, and you go into an area that's essentially, think of it like hiking in the wilderness, but you're skiing. So this was super unfortunate and essentially a freak accident.

Look, these people, it's such a shame. It's super sad. I do wonder why they decided to go out that day. I don't know all the facts. There was an extremely high avalanche risk. It was very well publicized, so I know they were out for a few days. Maybe they ran outta supplies or something, and they kind of felt like they had to go.

I really don't understand why they would've gone out then, but maybe it was the best option they had. It's just seriously tragic and of course, yeah, I, I'm glad I wasn't on the slopes at that point. There were some other deaths this week there as well, from what I understand at resorts. Now that could have been like an older person having a heart attack on the, on the slope.

I don't really know, but. It was just sort of a deadly week in Lake Tahoe and yeah, I'm [00:04:00] glad that I didn't have my kids with me on a ski slope during that time. We spent actually a lot of time doing fun family stuff. We went to an arcade and we went to another arcade, and we spent a lot of time at the hot tub and the bathtub and watching movies and eating snacks, and everyone was making fun of me for skipping the boarding, like it's perfect conditions.

It's unbelievable. But I, I've been making decisions like this a lot where I go, look, I'm gonna trade the perfect conditions of skiing or snowboarding for time in the tub with my kids, because in a year or two, I'm not gonna remember that day, I had perfect conditions, but I'm hoping my kids and me are gonna remember the fun week we had doing other things.

So I'm, I've been. That's just parenting though. You just make these sacrifices where you go, oh, I wish I could do this, but actually I'm gonna do this other thing that sounds almost boring or lame to somebody who doesn't have kids. Instead, you know, oh, I'd love to go to Italy for a week with my wife and do this and this and this.

Actually though, I'm gonna spend half my time at Dave and Buster's and Chuck E. Cheese, and it's like, what's become of you? But that's kind of what it is. Life with kids and, and it's fun, you [00:05:00] know, and, and you hopefully are creating core memories. I was pleased that Jaden remembered two years ago when we did this same thing.

We went tubing and spent the time in the hotel and he remembered it. So I'm like, all right, Juniper should also remember it. That's what I tell myself. Anyway. It's always better to make the choice for your family than to do something for yourself. And that sounds really obvious and self-evident. But for, I think for a lot of people, it's very hard to put that sort of selfishness aside.

It's definitely not my first instinct, I would say.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Anyway.

Jordan Harbinger: Gabe, what's the first thing outta the mailbag?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. My sister was diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder bipolar type a few years ago.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. Gabe, I need you to explain that again because I always forget what Schizoaffective disorder versus schizoid personality disorder versus schizophrenia.

What? I don't know the difference all the time.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I also get these mixed up all the time. So just to remind everybody, schizophrenia, psychotic disorder, hallucinations, delusions, disorganized thinking we, we know this one.

Jordan Harbinger: Mm.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Schizoaffective disorder is basically schizophrenia [00:06:00] plus a major mood disorder. So it can either be depressive type, meaning major depressive episodes or bipolar type, meaning mania or hypomania.

Jordan Harbinger: Got it. So psychosis plus mood stuff,

Gabriel Mizrahi: plus mood stuff that is part of the same disorder and not another separate thing that's incidental to the psychosis. That's right. Schizoid personality disorder actually is not a psychotic disorder at all. It's a personality pattern that's marked by social detachment, limited emotional expression, uh, preference for solitude, but no hallucinations, no delusions.

Jordan Harbinger: Like our friend who wrote in a few months back who was going through the divorce.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's right. The terms are conf. I feel like they could have done a better job naming these things 'cause it's very confusing.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I feel like we should write a letter to the people at the DSM. Like, can you guys be a little more creative?

Jordan Harbinger: I'm sure that's what they're concerned about. Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. I know. They should have a whole department for that. So it goes on When my sister is on medication, she's an amazingly friendly and driven person. The person I knew before her diagnosis, unfortunately a few [00:07:00] weeks ago, she must have stopped taking her meds.

Hmm.

Jordan Harbinger: That's tough to hear about. That's very common. Apparently

Gabriel Mizrahi: it started small, quitting her job in a fit of rage and screams. Then it escalated quickly while we were trying to get her help and convince her to take her meds. The next day she ran a stop sign and got pulled over. She tried to outrun the cops and led them on a chase for five minutes.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh my God. That is not good. That's how you end up on Channel 11 slash dead.

Gabriel Mizrahi: She was let go with a court hearing after the incident. Damn.

Jordan Harbinger: That's

Gabriel Mizrahi: lucky.

Jordan Harbinger: Very lucky. For her anyway,

Gabriel Mizrahi: later that day, she was at a bar drinking with some man we don't know, and started a fight. She threw a plate at him and injured him pretty badly.

When the same cops showed up at the bar, she tried to fight them, injuring one of the officers.

Jordan Harbinger: This person is out of control. What is going on?

Gabriel Mizrahi: This is so wild that it was the, the same cops who pulled her over that day were called to the bar.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, yeah. What? What are the odds of that? So do they live in a tiny.

Town. How is [00:08:00] that even

Gabriel Mizrahi: part? Yeah. This is either a very small town or that is one crazy coincidence. If this were a movie, that's how you'd script it. It's the same cops.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. At 10:00 AM she leads 'em on a high speed chase. Two 30. She graduates to assaulting one of 'em. They must have been like, all right, we should have booked this chick when we had a chance.

What is going on here?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh man. This is how you end up with a photo of yourself down at the precinct, like an old timey times. You know, like, watch out for this one.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, they watch Commander throw. It's in the break room with the dartboard in the back.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's right. That's right.

Jordan Harbinger: That is so disturbing. This is, this person is, okay, well continue.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm sorry, I just wanna be clear. Not making light of any of this. It's just a very intense series of events for somebody who just a few weeks ago, a big day was medicated and doing pretty well. It was a big day. Yeah, so it goes on. She's had four involuntary psychiatric holds since the diagnosis. All in another state.

We showed up to the court hearing, trying to understand the charges and get her help. And she complained to the judge that we were there and wanted us thrown out. She doesn't trust us at all when she's in her psychotic state. She will not talk to her public defender and is not interested in [00:09:00] defending herself against the three felony charges.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh my God, this is so tragic and frustrating.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Now the DA is probably pressing for more charges because she injured a guard at the jail. The jail can't force her to take her meds, unlike when she was on a hold at the hospital. I don't know what to do as the court seems to be convinced that she's competent and she can be a pretty good actress when she wants to be for a while, even in her state.

What would you do? How do I help my sister? Signed. Avoiding more charges being filed when my sister's going Buck Wild.

Jordan Harbinger: Man, this is a very sad story. Fascinating but sad to watch your own sibling go from being this amazingly friendly and driven person to attacking the police, not wanting you by her side in court.

It's just gotta be heartbreaking and confusing and in a way that I can't really wrap my head around.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, it really sucks that paranoia is such a big part of this disorder. It 'cause it really makes it impossible to help the person they think you are. Part of some plot. Against them. That's part of the delusion.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. Plus, when a lot of people go off their [00:10:00] meds, they don't believe they're sick. I mean, that's part of the

Gabriel Mizrahi: issue. Yeah. They go off the meds because they aren't feeling sick anymore,

Jordan Harbinger: unfortunately. Very common. And then they're right, and you're the enemy. And there's only so much this very flawed system can do to make sure people are getting the care they need.

It's just awful. So look, it's very possible that you won't be able to do much to help your sister right now if she refuses to engage with you. If she refuses to talk to her public defender, if she truly isn't interested in defending herself against these charges, there's just not a lot you can do. But here are a few ideas.

One thing you can try to do, you can contact the public defender's office, try to get in touch with the attorney they assigned her, and send them a history on your sister. The previous psychiatric holds her diagnosis, her medication history, her pattern of decompensation. When she goes off her meds, they might not be able to tell you very much about her case, but they can receive information.

Maybe your documentation makes her PD go, okay, I'm gonna file a motion for a competency evaluation, or I'm gonna push for diversion to a mental health program instead of prison time, if that's an option. Sadly, public defenders [00:11:00] can often be overwhelmed and underpaid and not super motivated to fight for clients who are a huge pain in the butt, but a decent one might see what's going on here and try to help her.

We also wanted to get an expert in here. So we reached out to the one and only Corbin Payne, defense attorney and friend of the show. That's a new soundbite. We had to move away from law and order for, uh, IP reasons, but, uh, this one now AI can make just about anything. Anyway, Corbin said. The other thing you could do if you wanted to, I don't think you're obligated to, but you could reach out to your own criminal defense attorney.

Maybe somebody with experience representing clients with serious mental illness. Even if it's just for a consult, you don't necessarily need to replace the public defender, but just to understand how this is gonna go, what your options are, what the realistic outcomes are in your sister's case, Corbin said that if a good attorney in the community approaches a PD with all the documentation and can make the case that your sister has some serious issues, then the public defender is more likely to take that seriously than hearing from some random family member of that one client that the public defender actually dreads.

Talking to Corbin said, a [00:12:00] private attorney can also advise on how to frame the information in a way that a public defender can quickly grasp and easily communicate to the judge, and that is key.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I would also look into whether your state has what's called an assisted outpatient treatment law and a OT law.

So in California, this is called Laura's Law. In New York, I believe it's called Kendra's Law. Other states have other names. Basically, these are laws that provide court ordered community-based care to reduce things like hospitalization. Incarceration. They're designed specifically for people with severe persistent mental illness who are resistant to treatment.

People who have a history of hospitalization, people who are at high risk of deteriorating. So this would allow a judge to order someone to comply with a treatment plan while they continue living in the community. So they have to go to psychiatric appointments, they have to adhere to their medication regimen, they have to maybe go to therapy or substance abuse treatment.

Um, you know, work with a case manager. It can look a few different ways. It is not perfect, but for people who are stuck in a cycle like your sister's, it can be a game changer. [00:13:00] But someone has to petition. The court for this option. Could be a family member, could be a psychiatrist who's treated her, could be a hospital director, and then her lawyer would either argue for or against a OT.

The lawyer themselves cannot typically file an a o OT petition on their own, but if your sister wants a OT and it's on the table, then it should not require a petition at all if her county is offering it. Then she could theoretically enter treatment without a court order at all.

Jordan Harbinger: You do have one other option, not easy, but on the table you and your family could look into getting a conservatorship over your sister.

Corbin said that one of the big factors in getting a conservatorship can be whether the person in question is engaging in dangerous or unlawful behavior, and it sounds like you guys have prime evidence that that's the case. There are two big benefits to this. According to Corbin, if you got a conservatorship, you guys could take steps to force medication and you'd be laying the groundwork for establishing a competency issue at trial.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, but we've talked about this before. Getting a conservatorship over somebody is not easy. In a simple uncontested [00:14:00] case, you're probably talking about two to six months, maybe five to $15,000 in expenses on average. If it's a more involved case, like when somebody contests the conservatorship or there are big assets involved, or it becomes a messy family fight, then you could be looking at, I don't know, six months to a year or more easily $20,000 or higher.

So just keep that in mind.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, not cheap, not easy. My understanding is that the main thing you have to prove in these cases is incapacity, that the person cannot provide for their own needs or manage their affairs safely. One of those needs is managing their medical care or medications, which you might be able to prove,

Gabriel Mizrahi: right?

But you need evidence and apparently quite a bit of it, doctor or psychologist, declaration an explanation of how the condition impairs, decision making and judgment, stuff like that.

Jordan Harbinger: And you have to prove that alternatives won't work. Power of attorney, a healthcare directive, management of their estate, stuff like that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And then you have to show that you or someone in your family is suitable for the role of being a conservator, which is a whole other element.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it's a high bar, and that is by design. The courts don't [00:15:00] want to make it easy to control somebody who doesn't deserve to be controlled in this way. My understanding is that conservatorships fail pretty frequently, so you're gonna wanna talk to an attorney about all this, and of course, your family to decide if this is the route you actually wanna take.

Gabriel Mizrahi: All good options, but I think you could make the opposite case, Jordan, that maybe he shouldn't help his sister at this point.

Jordan Harbinger: Great. I love when we swap roles, usually you're the idealist and I'm the guy going, screw it. They're on their own.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, like you said, watching a sibling decompensate like this potentially face prison time without proper treatment.

It is tragic. It is heartbreaking. So, of course our friend wants to help. I'm sure I would want to help as well. I think the history here shows that there really, like you said, isn't very much he can do, even if he and his family could influence the sister, they can't be with her every second of the day to make sure she behaves properly, right?

She can't, they can't control everything she does and monitor every movement and force her into treatment that she doesn't want to get. And she has had four involuntary psychiatric holds. I know that that system is very limited, but I do wonder if that is [00:16:00] her best shot at getting the interventions that she needs.

Jordan Harbinger: So where you're going with this is maybe she needs to go to prison.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, look, it's awful to think about. It is not where you want anyone like this to get mental health treatment, but if she ultimately ends up there for a time, she might, might have to confront what she has made of her life. Like, oh, I ran away from the police.

I punched a cop in the face. Quit my job. I ended up in prison. My family won't help me anymore. I drove them away. You know, now I'm on medication, so I see that more clearly. Maybe I do need to stay on top of my meds

Jordan Harbinger: or she doesn't get any help. And she views prison as one more way that, you know, everybody's out to get me and she gets worse.

I, I just feel like maybe we're giving people with a severe mental illness, too much credit to be able to self-reflect in jail. I dunno.

Gabriel Mizrahi: This is also possible. There are no guarantees.

Jordan Harbinger: I mean, she could get in fights with other inmates. She could attack a co, she could catch more charges and have to serve more time.

I don't know.

Gabriel Mizrahi: She could, I mean, apparently she already attacked one guard in the jail so that stuff could continue. And look, mental health care in prison, as we all [00:17:00] know, famously terrible. So I hate to think of her ending up there. I just wonder if she needs to experience some consequences in order to realize that she needs to manage her life differently.

Jordan Harbinger: Look, when we talked to Corbin, he walked us through an interesting scenario. Let's say your sister ends up going to trial, she loses, then she'll have to undergo a sentencing hearing. But at the sentencing hearing, you guys can come in and testify about. How wonderful she is when she's on her meds, how dark things get when she's off of them.

Corbin said that these can all be mitigating factors in a sentence. They're factors that might make the judge lean towards the lower end of the sentencing range. The judge can also order certain services for her in prison or while on probation,

Gabriel Mizrahi: and by the way, an attorney gets to decide whom to call or whom not to call to testify.

So in Corbin's view, a good defense attorney, public defender, or private could call you guys even if your sister does not want you there. And if they don't happen to call you, then Corbin said that you can absolutely write letters to the court requesting some sort of leniency and explain who she is when she's off her meds.

Jordan Harbinger: And if she goes on probation, which [00:18:00] Corbin said is likely if she doesn't go to prison, then you guys can also contact her probation officer, make sure that they're aware of what's going on. He said probation can keep an eye on things and monitor her compliance with the judge's orders, including medical treatment.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Corbin's hunch, just based on his own experience, is that your sister is probably gonna be a difficult client for her attorney. She's probably gonna be uncooperative, unruly, inconsistent. If she does end up going to trial, she'll probably upset the judge and jury and unfortunately get convicted. So Corbin said that if he were an attorney in a case like this, he would be grasping at straws toward the end to get some measure of relief for his client.

Even if it means calling family members, she hates to testify. But Jordan, I think what our friend here is really wrestling with is how much he should realistically do for his sister. At this point. It's so hard because he knows what she's like when she's medicated. She's great. So of course he's going, how do we just keep her out of prison?

How do we get her back on Risperidone or whatever? So things can go back to how they were.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, I'd be [00:19:00] asking the same thing.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So I guess my question is. Why does he feel like it's his responsibility to save his sister now?

Jordan Harbinger: I think because it's his sister, their family, I, I'm a only child, but you know, that seems reasonable.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I understand wanting to do the right thing. I understand wanting to be a good brother, but this is a pattern now and it's a difficult one. And if she's gonna go through this cycle again and again as she seems to be demonstrating and he's gonna want to intervene every time something happens, I don't know that just, that sounds like a very stressful life.

Jordan Harbinger: It's not sustainable. At the very least,

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think he and his family are coming to terms with the reality of her situation, which is that short of institutionalizing her, which doesn't sound like it's gonna happen anytime soon. Or getting a conservatorship, which is not guaranteed and will take a lot of time and money, or making her, I don't know, move in with them and keeping an eye on her 24 7, which sounds like a bad idea in addition to probably being impractical.

They cannot make her do anything she doesn't wanna do. So at some point, as hard as it is, I do think they have to at [00:20:00] least imagine a future where she is on her own path. And it might be quite scary and quite sad for a time.

Jordan Harbinger: I know. It just, it breaks my heart that they might have to watch her go from being awesome and having a job to being in and outta prison or out on the street or something.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's devastating. Uh, dude, I lived next to it with a stranger once with a Josh thing. I saw it firsthand. It is, you know, I wasn't even related to him and it was right. Indescribably painful.

Jordan Harbinger: I don't disagree with anything you're saying. I mean. Say they managed to keep her out of prison. Then what? She goes home to her apartment she can't pay for because she quit her job.

Exactly. She keeps getting a arrested for starting fights. Is our friend here gonna pay for housing? Is he gonna bail her out every other weekend? Is he gonna save her Every time she creates a massive problem. It's just, it's not fair to him. She's not his child and even if she were his child, there would still be a limit to how much they can and should do.

I mean, even Josh's parents, your neighbor's parents had to give up at a certain point for the most part.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly. That's exactly right. So I just have two quick ideas for you. If you and your family somehow [00:21:00] managed to get your sister medicated again, I would consider recommending that she take one of the long acting injectable forms of these drugs.

Sometimes it's monthly, sometimes it's once every like two or three months. That can be extremely helpful for people who struggle to stay on their medication.

Jordan Harbinger: I didn't even know that existed. That's a fantastic idea.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's not perfect, obviously, and it can still be a problem when they have to get their next shot, you know, like they might forget that or skip that one, but apparently this is a game changer for a lot of people and their families.

Of course,

Jordan Harbinger: I bet. And also, it's probably a lot easier to monitor, Hey, did you get your shot every month or 90 days than it is. Hey, did you take your pills today? This just has to be a godsend for people who I, I don't know. They live alone. They wanna stay independent, but they can't stay on top of their meds.

Or if, I don't know, I'm imagining you go on a trip and your luggage gets lost, or you go to, you drive up to Lake Tahoe, you forget to pack your medication and three days later, I don't know, you're wandering the streets, thinking the chais out to get you. I, you know, I don't know.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, exactly. No, it's a huge help.

My other recommendation is make sure you're taking care of yourself through all of [00:22:00] this. You guys are going through a lot right now. I'm sure a lot of your energy is being absorbed by your sister, and that's probably keeping you up at night, so just come back to the things you need to take care of yourself.

Therapy, of course, if you're not already there, I'm sure this whole family situation is probably, there's a lot to talk about. I would also look into a support group for family members of people dealing with psychosis. Highly recommend this. I hear it can be extremely helpful and I'm gonna include a bunch of great resources in the show notes for you, but also, you know, friends, exercise most importantly, a life outside of your sister

Jordan Harbinger: boundaries.

For sure. Yeah, big time.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think our friend here knows this better than anybody. Having a sibling like this is. A big deal. It is uniquely demanding, uniquely confusing, and I would just really love for you to stay connected with people you can talk to who can not only help you know how much to support your sister, when to support your sister, when to show up for her, when not to show up for her, but also help you work through all of the difficult feelings that a situation like this brings up.

Jordan Harbinger: I think the biggest one, which is not a surprise, is grief. [00:23:00] Grief about the sister that he used to have, the one he's lost to this disorder. Grief about the stability they all used to have,

Gabriel Mizrahi: of course. And you know, like what would our friend here have to deal with if he did not step in and save her? Right? A ton of sadness, I imagine anger maybe at this disorder, at the system, at her, and maybe a general loss of hope that things might get better with her.

Jordan Harbinger: Fear about what might happen to her from here on out.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Fear is a big one. That's a huge one. And connected to that, maybe some anxiety about what other people, like his parents, for example. Might think of him if he stopped trying to help. We don't have all the information. He didn't say anything in his letter that suggests this, but I can imagine worrying about, you know, like, would my parents be disappointed in me if I didn't try to intervene as strongly as they are?

Or am I gonna be ashamed about being a quote unquote bad brother if I don't behave a certain way?

Jordan Harbinger: Or if you feel you can't step out of this role, that would be important to work through as well. Don't get me wrong, I think it's very touching that you wanna show up for your sister however you can. Even when [00:24:00] she's literally saying, go away, I don't want your help, but pushing to help, that might be a way of staving off these very difficult feelings.

I also suspect that it's costing you quite a bit mentally, emotionally, physically, and I think you have to ask yourself whether that cost is appropriate and sustainable. I am so sorry that your sister is struggling with this disorder. I'm so sorry that you and your family have to go through all of this.

My heart goes out to you guys. It really does. But it's also important to remember that she's her own person and she also has to figure this out in her own way to the best of her ability. But I hope that we've given you a few ways to still influence the situation within reason sending you and your sister a big hug and wishing you all the best.

Now we're gonna lead you on a five minute chase through an ad break with some deals that are straight up crazy. You're not hallucinating. These discounts really are that good. We'll be right back.

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Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe.

I am pretty sure that my wife's business partners are screwing her over. I think they're being dishonest about the financials and they're refusing to do certain things that their partnership agreement requires them to do, such as providing income statements and the like. The kicker is that her partners have announced their plans to retire, but to keep their equity positions in the company and keep collecting their cuts of profits without working.

My wife is an older millennial slash young Gen Xer, and her partners are baby boomers. Legally, if she threw down, she would've a strong case. It wouldn't be cheap, but it wouldn't be too expensive either. We could also connect her with lawyers and third party companies that can do the back office work for her to get established on her own so she could just walk and leave her partner stuck with a company in which the only truly productive member just [00:28:00] quit, and which they won't be able to exploit to fund their retirements in their second homes on the beach.

All in all, it's a powerful negotiating position, but she's scared of negotiating aggressively and quote unquote being mean. I want to be respectful of her feelings, but also encourage her to stand up for herself. Any pointers on how to advise my wife to be comfortable with boldness and aggression here signed, helping my wife find her big girl pants when her go-to stance is to avoid looking a against and simply dance around this dodgy finance.

Jordan Harbinger: Interesting. Okay, so this is concerning Gabe. I'm trying to imagine why they would be hiding the financials in the first place. That's just there's, it's never good. I worry that either they're not paying her her fair share, probably that's the case and or they're embezzling money from the company or even committing some sort of tax fraud or something like that.

There's basically, there's no reason to refuse to hand over financial data to a fellow partner if you're not doing [00:29:00] anything, if you're not doing

Gabriel Mizrahi: something weird,

Jordan Harbinger: right? Totally. Like best case scenario, they're screwing her over on the money. That's the actual best case scenario. The worst case scenario is criminal liability, and they're gonna be, I don't wanna go too far down this rabbit hole, but if anything happens, it's like, you're a partner, you're also liable for this.

Well, they weren't sharing the data with me and, okay, whatever. Tell it to the judge,

Gabriel Mizrahi: right?

Jordan Harbinger: So you should be very worried about this. I'm very sorry that your wife is going through this competent partner carrying the Load Legacy Partners slash criminal Partners coasting and Obfuscating name a more iconic duo.

Am I right? I mean, it just sounds like this is hidden close to home. It sucks that they're pulling this move. She's the one who's scared of being mean. But I assume that this fear of conflict is also partly why she's in this position in the first place. I'm guessing her partners know that she's kind of a pushover slash nice person, people pleaser and they're like, ah, Michelle's gonna just suck this up.

We're make her do all the work. She'll be too chicken shit to say anything. On the other hand, I do feel for her kind people, conscientious [00:30:00] people, people who are collaborative and fair, they tend to equate assertiveness with cruelty sometimes, which is obviously not the case, but it probably feels that way to her.

Plus, with older business partners, there's often a subtle power dynamic that makes confrontation feel intimidating and dangerous. So I understand her position, but obviously she has to do something 'cause this cannot fly. So here are a few thoughts. First of all, I'd continue to make lots of room for your wife's feelings around this conflict.

Hear her out, ask good questions, validate her, help her appreciate the aspects of her personality and her history that this show down with the partners is bringing out. She's getting ready to enter a fight that's gonna be a big deal for her. It's not just gonna help her solve this problem with the company.

It's probably also gonna rewrite a huge pattern of hers to sidestep a conflict like this. It takes some time to get there. It'll also take the support of other people in her life. Now, part of that should probably be helping your wife see some of these vulnerabilities more clearly. When the time is right, I would tell her, you know, so many of your great qualities, your collaboration, your [00:31:00] diplomacy, your kindness, when it comes to partners like these, they become liabilities.

These people are counting on you not to stand up to them, and I think that might be an important step in helping her see that she needs to tap into other qualities. Then I would start to help your wife appreciate that assertiveness is not aggression. I'm guessing your wife thinks of these qualities as binary.

Either she's kind or she's mean. Either she's a team player or she's, you know, the enemy here. Obviously these are spectrums.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, you can be multiple things at once. For example, you could be tough and respectful at the same time, you can be assertive and diplomatic at the same time.

Jordan Harbinger: I would also help her understand what's at stake if she doesn't push back here.

The obvious consequence is that she runs the company alone and doesn't fully benefit from that labor. And I think she knows that and that's not a good feeling. I've been there. But there's also a psychological cost here. The feeling of being taken advantage of the anger and resentment she's gonna feel toward her partners and also toward herself for allowing it, the regret she might feel about missing out on an opportunity to rewrite this pattern [00:32:00] and build some new muscles.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's a really good point. 'cause sometimes when we don't want to do something, we need to get clear on the cost of not doing it. Sometimes that's the only fuel that we respond to.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. 'cause we mostly just wanna stay safe, right? So it's not like running toward the dangers gonna be motivating, but realizing that we're cramping around our limitations, that we're gonna kick ourselves for not trying something new.

That can be motivating. Maybe instead of saying, you know, be bold, be strong. Screw them. Maybe you just ask her, Hey, what's the cost of continuing like this for five more years emotionally, financially. The answer she supplies is gonna be way more useful. Another way to help your wife get comfortable with this is frame it as a management thing, not just an emotional thing.

Enforcing a partnership agreement or an operating agreement. It's not aggression, it's not being mean. It's just good corporate governance. Period, right?

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's leadership,

Jordan Harbinger: right? If these partners are literally saying, yeah, we're not gonna provide the financials required under our partnership agreement, that's a breach of contract.

So allowing them to do that, that makes her an [00:33:00] ineffective manager, and that means letting the partnership down, not to mention probably slash possibly incurring some liability down the line. I was reading some research on women in negotiations, and the finding was basically, women tend to experience social penalties for negotiating assertively, surprise, surprise, or at least they anticipate those penalties.

And that anticipation often makes them not wanna fight for what they deserve. But when women frame negotiation as advocating for fairness for the larger system, employees, clients, shareholders, their assertiveness often feels more legitimate, both to themselves and to others. I'm gonna link to that study in the show notes.

By the way, it's quite interesting. You might wanna read that. So maybe you tell your wife, look, this isn't just about enriching yourself, standing up for yourself. This is about protecting everyone in the company, present and future. This is about protecting the integrity of the company and the agreement for every person that the company touches that might give her the legitimacy that she feels she needs.

And once she does decide to push back, I would help her remember that point about being two things at [00:34:00] once. She can be calm, she can be professional, respectful, measured, while being totally firm. So when she talks to her partners, she can literally say, I wanna make sure we're fully compliant with the partnership agreement.

I need the financials by x date. If that doesn't happen, I'll need to consider further steps talking to counsel, making a formal books and records demand, considering a breach of fiduciary duty claim. Whatever it is that seems unnecessary. All we have to do is follow the partnership agreement that we all signed.

But if you don't, then that's the process and the timeline. That does not mean that is called being a freaking grownup. My hope here is that these older partners are just paper tigers. Once they go, oh crap, Michelle's got a backbone, or somebody's telling her to do this, we better back off this whole plan.

But if they don't, your wife has a choice. Either she throws down, which probably means hiring an attorney and getting even tougher, and you can support her in that too. Or she leaves the company and starts her own, which sounds like a very viable idea. That would be less baggage potentially.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I am voting for that option, honestly, myself.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, me too. I've probably hinted at it earlier, but the [00:35:00] whole situation sounds like a mess, and I doubt these partners. I just very much doubt these partners are gonna suddenly start to treat her fairly at this point if their whole plan. From the jump was to leach off the company possibly with fraudulent behavior and just make her le leave her holding the bag and doing all the work.

Come on.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, if she leaves the company, she might lose something, but she would gain something huge, which is her freedom. She would be free from these people.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. A clean break under these circumstances is always better. Ask me how I know. Come on.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Listen. I would not focus on that possibility at this stage because you know, it might not come to pass and you don't want her to feel even more daunted.

All she needs to do right now is appropriately push back and demand to see the financials. That's it. And however they respond to that, that's gonna tell her what her next move should be and then she can deal with it from there.

Jordan Harbinger: Agreed. So I hope that gives you and your wife a way forward here. She's lucky to have you in her corner.

I'm sure your confidence will go a very long way. I've been in a few major business conflicts myself, as you can probably tell. And they can be awful. They're unpleasant. They're a [00:36:00] massive waste of time and energy, or at least investment of time and energy. I'm sure your wife just wishes she could run this company, but sometimes these conflicts are necessary.

So in a way, I'm actually kind of excited for your wife because here's an opportunity to learn how to lean into these conflicts, build some crucial muscles. That's a big part of leadership as well. And if she learns how to stand up for herself when she has to, I know that that skill's gonna pay dividends for the rest of her career, sending her our best thoughts and all of our confidence and good luck.

I am so curious how this shakes out, by the way. So if you get a chance, shoot us an update in six months to a year or however long it takes because I, I got theories, I got thoughts. I'm very curious what ends up happening here. Speaking of building muscles, how about some deals and discounts on supplements and or chef crafted meals and or a personal training app and or a bougie mattress?

We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Quiltmind. If you're not on LinkedIn, you're probably making a mistake not 'cause it's so cool, but because it's practical. If you're trying to get hired, [00:37:00] recruiters are there. If you run a business, people are absolutely looking you up before they take you seriously.

LinkedIn is your built-in credibility slash this person really exists? Check, but here's the bigger miss. Having a profile and never posting. Most people treat LinkedIn like some kind of static resume. The moment you start posting consistently, you stand out because almost nobody does. Every time I post, I get dms from people I haven't talked to in years.

Like, man, that hit home. Suddenly I'm top of mind. That turns into intros, partnerships, opportunities. That's not luck. It's visibility. And that's why I use Quiltmind. They help busy execs get LinkedIn famous. In about 30 minutes a week, I do a quick call. They pull out my stories and insights, turn 'em into short, punchy posts that sound like me, and they keep me accountable because my default setting is I'll do it later and you know how that goes.

And I'll share stuff there that I don't really talk about on the podcast. So if you're curious, look me up on LinkedIn. If you want Quiltmind, email Jordan, audience@quiltmind.com. That's Jordan audience at Q-U-I-L-T-M-I-N d.com. You can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise, use descriptive subject lines.

That makes our job a lot [00:38:00] easier. If your recently widowed father is knowingly participating in tons of romance scams, your business partner is using your past against you, or you're wondering how to talk about your self-harm scars when young kids ask about them, whatever's Got you staying up at night lately.

Hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. Alright, next up.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi Jordan and Gabe. My 69-year-old mom is one of the most selfless, giving, nurturing people on the planet. She's a mother of six and grandmother of nine and has felt mothering to be her calling since she was a child.

I'm her youngest child and live outta state with my spouse. My siblings and I are all close, and despite our parents being divorced, the 19 of us, my parents, siblings, siblings, spouses, and siblings, kids all get along well. There have never been any significant issues.

Jordan Harbinger: That is a minor miracle 19. What a tribe.

That's very sweet and probably a lot of fun.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The problem is that my mom's devotion to her [00:39:00] family, her helpfulness and her extreme capability sometimes get taken advantage of, and part of the reason that there haven't been issues in the family may be because everyone is too kind and puts peace slash no drama above honest feedback.

Jordan Harbinger: Interesting. I was wondering how a family of 19 avoided any major conflict whatsoever. Come on.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Interesting theme on today's episode, huh? Conflict avoidance and all of the concomitant problems that it creates.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly.

Gabriel Mizrahi: A couple of my siblings and I agree that my sister-in-law, Ellie, takes advantage of my mom's kindness and care and her resistance to saying no.

Ellie and my brother Peter have three kids under age 10 and rely on my parents, but mostly my mom. On a weekly, if not daily basis, to manage their lives. Driving to swim lessons, babysitting the youngest child hosting meals a few times a week to name a few. Ellie and Peter live one mile away from them.

Ellie subjects my [00:40:00] mom to extremely long visits in which my mom feeds her and the kids. At least one full meal and many snacks. Watches the kids, cleans up everything when they leave, and is left exhausted. My mom loves this time with her grandchildren more than anything, but two things can be true at the same time.

These visits, which happen multiple times a week, exhaust her. She's even gotten UTIs from sitting for so long and chatting with Ellie. That is listening to Ellie Vent and Gossip.

Jordan Harbinger: I didn't even know it was possible to get a UTI from sitting. Imagine, sorry. I don't mean to laugh, but imagine suffering through a conversation that's so bad it gives you an infection.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's pretty extreme.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, Ellie sounds like a lot.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Meanwhile, my brother has irregular weekends and is never present during these visits. I'm sure if he were, he'd be surprised at what goes on and give his wife feedback, like maybe let the almost 70-year-old rest and chase around your own 3-year-old. My hunch is that Ellie doesn't let Peter in on how [00:41:00] long the visits are, and my mom always downplays how hard she works.

Jordan Harbinger: Interesting.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Each of these lengthy visits probably cost my mom at least a hundred dollars in groceries, much more if they stay for dinner and can last nine hours.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh my God.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I've witnessed Ellie encouraging her kids to take a bath and nap in my mom's room instead of driving the roughly 5,280 feet to their own home.

Ellie has never washed a single dish, vacuumed, or in any way made an effort to clean up after these visits other than putting the crayons back in the box.

Jordan Harbinger: Not cool. This is so selfish.

Gabriel Mizrahi: My sister-in-law is generally quite a selfish person.

Jordan Harbinger: Huh? You don't

Gabriel Mizrahi: say, but I'm not sure if she's also extremely unaware.

Just doesn't care about my mom's health and happiness, or is pretending to be unaware. She lives a rather insular life. Her only friends are parents of her kids' friends. So for her, these visits are one of her only social outlets.

Jordan Harbinger: You know, I can't imagine why she's not more popular around town. She [00:42:00] sounds so, so amazing and give honestly, this is a typical archetype of a person that, uh, yeah.

Doesn't read the room at all and doesn't care to.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Interesting data point or maybe a straight up red flag that her only friends are parents that she meets in. Like the carpool line.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. Air quotes. Friends. Yeah, friends. But you know, I appreciate that you're curious about what these visits mean to her as well and that you're open to different explanations for all this.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I appreciate that too. So she goes on, another perplexing detail is that she and my brother don't like their kids to have screens and use tech or watch TV a lot, but Ellie conveniently forgets this rule during these interminable visits. Yeah, I don't think Peter knows that. When Ellie is gossiping with my mom downstairs, she's letting the kids watch TV alone for up to a few hours upstairs.

This dishonesty to my brother also bothers and saddens me.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, the screen time thing. Is one of the biggest virtue signals of parenting in 2026, but that's a whole separate skeptical Sunday. So, okay. This is interesting too. These visits might be precious to Ellie because [00:43:00] they're like a Peter free zone where the normal rules don't apply and she can parent how she wants or, you know, not parent at all as the case may be.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's interesting, obviously I don't have children, so I don't know firsthand, but you and I, Jordan might be on slightly different pages with the screen stuff. I theoretically, I'm a big fan of the idea of not letting kids use screens too much. I understand that a little bit is probably not that harmful if it's done in moderation and they're watching decent stuff or whatever.

But. That does create objectively a ton more work for parents. Like, if you're not letting your kids watch screens, somebody's gonna have to entertain them. So she might just not be up for it. But Peter's like, no screens, but he's at work all day, so he doesn't have to deal with it.

Jordan Harbinger: It's easy for him to say exactly.

They're, if they're not watching Peppa Pig on their iPads, they gotta be doing something, and that usually means mom or dad have to entertain them, make a plan for them, assign them something, which, you know, that's great, but it's a huge job. So I, I do understand that these visits are a reprieve for her.

She's just taken a little bit of a liberty with it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Lastly, Ellie has often told my mom that she's coming over at say, 10:00 AM and [00:44:00] then showed up at 11:00 AM with no explanation, leaving my mom waiting around with hot food, getting cold, and not being able to leave the house even to walk her dog. Last year my mom ended up quitting her fitness class because she got charged for being a no-show too many times owing to Ellie's flakiness and constant need for childcare help.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay, this is actually pretty concerning. She's giving up on a major component of self-care and health. That is a serious sacrifice that directly affects your longevity and quality of life. So yes, this is super rude to do to somebody who's doing you a favor, to say the least, but also at a certain point your mom has to say, Ellie, I love hanging with you and the kids, but we need to coordinate better.

I need a heads up. I need to know what time you're gonna be here. I have commitments too. Gabe, my father-in-law takes care of Jayden and sometimes he's like, oh, I, I'm gonna cancel lunch with my friends. And I'm like, Jen, we can't let him do that too often because he needs his outlets too. You know? This is, it's not fair.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Not a crazy thing to ask for at all.

Jordan Harbinger: No, not at all. This is not a conflict that's gonna tear the family apart if somebody stands up for [00:45:00] themselves slightly for once.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, no. All she would be saying is, I just need you to be a little bit more thoughtful and show up on time so I can make it to Zumba once in a while.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. I want mom to go to Zumba. She deserves Zumba. Look, I am not a huge fan of Ellie so far, but mom is also abandoning herself at this point.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Totally agree. But I think what our friend here is saying is this is how hard even the most basic friction is for her mother.

Jordan Harbinger: I hear that. I do. I'm just saying that she also has a responsibility to take care of herself here too.

Come on.

Gabriel Mizrahi: In some these visits monopolize not only my mom's personal time, but also her social time. My five other siblings almost never have a chance for themselves and their kids to see my mom alone. My mom is never going to have an honest conversation about these visits and the exhaustion that they cause her because she's so caring and so selfless

Jordan Harbinger: slash avoidant.

Maybe a little brittle.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Two sides of the same coin, I think.

Jordan Harbinger: Right?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oftentimes.

Jordan Harbinger: Absolutely.

Gabriel Mizrahi: This is really starting to concern me and a few of my siblings, given that my mom is turning 70 next year, she's getting [00:46:00] depleted and is unable to prioritize her own health. Selfishly, I also care because I almost never get to see her, and half the time I call her, Ellie is in the room, but my mom would be upset if I talked to Ellie behind her back as she doesn't want to cause trouble and feels that the situation is manageable.

Peter might also be upset if we didn't talk to him first, so I feel totally stuck. Do you have any advice on how to deal with this frustrating situation and help my mom signed, wondering if I need to get tough when my mom can't say enough's enough?

Jordan Harbinger: Oh boy. Your poor mom. So first of all, I feel for everyone in this situation, your mom, of course, but also you having to watch her struggle to stand up for herself suffer because of her people pleasing your siblings and their kids.

They don't get to see your mom alone. The bind you're in about how to approach all this. It's just a, this is a tough one. There's a lot of knots here. At the same time, I think your mom has co-created this situation, and that is also frustrating. Although, to Gabe's point, I also know that somebody who can't stand up for [00:47:00] herself in these very basic ways, that's gotta be because of some trauma in her past, some capacities she was never taught.

And at 69 years old, you've been operating this way your entire life. Kind of hard to rewrite that pattern. You're up against a lot here with your mom. Option one is you make more of an effort to connect with your mom when she's alone. Check in on her, ask how she's doing. Get her to acknowledge how she's really feeling these days, especially after one of these visits.

Now it sounds like her answer's probably gonna be, I'm great. I love time with my grandkids. I'm so happy to cook and clean and give Ellie a break. So that might be tough to cut through, but you could also say, Hey, I hear that Mom, I'm so glad you love being a grandma. You also sound kind of tired. Or when she ends up in the ER with her fifth UTI this year, you could say, mom, I'm worried about you.

This shouldn't be happening so often. What do you think is going on? Or if she ever talks about being tired or stiff or not going out as much, maybe you say, I know how much you loved Zumba. I know how much you enjoyed those long walks with the dog. Why did that fall off? Basically, you can try to point out how Ellie's visits have disrupted her life in a variety of ways, and gently push her to connect [00:48:00] the dots and acknowledge what a big sacrifice this is for her, which might take a while.

Ideally, she feels safe enough to say, you know, I do love those visits. I really do, but they're also a lot for me. At which point you can start to say things like, mom, I can see what a toll those visits are taking on you. Are you sure this is fair? Are you sure this is sustainable? Do you feel totally loved and appreciated for all this work you're doing?

Is there anything you could use to make these visits more manageable to you, to allow you to still live your life? And then basically work up to asking her, how can I help you communicate some of this to Ellie and Peter? I don't know if it's gonna happen, but the ideal solution is that your mom is the one who talks to them, and maybe you can help give her confidence in the language to do that.

But step one is really just getting her to acknowledge how she's actually feeling and what this role has done to her life.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, even that would be a really big deal for her. So that is step number one.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Part of how she avoids having to stand up for herself is denying that she's suffering at all.

So you really have to start there. Option two is you talk to Peter, he's your brother. There's more of a connection there. I'm [00:49:00] guessing more of a shared interest in your mom's wellbeing. You don't have to say, Hey, you're selfish, gossipy pain. The butt wife is monopolizing mom and sending her into an early grave.

But you can say, I know how much you and Ellie depend on. Mom, I'm so glad you guys have a close relationship with her. I'm so glad she gets to spend so much time with the kids. I'm also starting to get pretty worried about her ability to keep up with it all physically, emotionally, financially. You know, mom, she's almost 70.

She's the last person to speak up when something's hard for her. But here's what I'm noticing. And then I'd tell him I wouldn't focus so much on Ellie's behavior at first, the selfishness, the lack of care, and help the screens thing. I'd really focus more on the overall impact that these visits are having on your mom.

'cause that's something Peter can probably take in more easily. Maybe he goes, oh, I didn't realize she was depending on mom so much. All right, I'll talk to Ellie. That could be all the progress you need. Or maybe he goes, well, mom says she's up for it and she and Ellie get along great. I don't see what the problem is.

You're just jealous. I don't know. In which case, you might have to help him see what the problem is more explicitly.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh man. Which would mean telling him that his wife is [00:50:00] kind of a problem.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, in a word. Yeah. I mean there's a diplomatic way to do it. She can say, I don't know if Ellie realizes how much work goes into these visits or, I know mom loves Ellie and the kids, but it's hard for mom to carve out time for herself too.

Or she's 70 now, she's getting up there. I think she could use more help. Something like that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Nice. I like that. She can also say, I'm glad Ellie and the kids get so much time with her, but our five other siblings and their kids almost never have a chance to see mom alone. I never get a chance to hang out with mom alone.

So like that's not fair to the rest of us either, is it?

Jordan Harbinger: Well, that's smart. 'cause then Peter can't say, oh, you just want mom to yourself, or You just have a problem with Ellie.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

Jordan Harbinger: So these are all more tactful ways to say. Your wife is self-absorbed and clueless and she's taking advantage of a vulnerable old lady for company and free childcare, which is what's happening.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You know, I hope Peter gets the message. I do think he's gonna be her best ally in this situation. Let's also remember that she said her brother is never present during these visits. So just sharing this with him, he might go, oh my God, I had no idea. Okay, let me chat with her. I'm on top of this.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, if he's a halfway decent son, I [00:51:00] think he probably will.

He might be more, should be mortified that his wife is acting this way with his own mom.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I also think that our friend here should probably be prepared for this to cause some friction with Ellie.

Jordan Harbinger: I think so too, but that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing protecting their mom and helping LEC, that she's not being very gracious.

To me that's more important than being on perfect terms with this unreasonable woman.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So I totally agree. I'm just appreciating that our friend here is a product of the same family that sweeps things under the Rugiet to get along right. That's partly why she is tied up in knots about this. But this conversation could be a way for her to rewrite this template for herself too.

That would be huge.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that would be great. I mean, you gotta risk ruffling some feathers to do what's right, and this is what is right. We're talking about a vulnerable put upon older parent who can't stand up for herself. There are ways to minimize the feather ruffling, and she should, but at the end of the day, the message is this isn't okay.

Something needs to change. Of course, your third option is to take this directly to Ellie, but I do [00:52:00] think there are, okay. I think there are some good reasons to do that, but it is riskier and it's probably more daunting for you.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, and she did say that her mom would be upset if she talked to Ellie behind her back.

So there's that.

Jordan Harbinger: Although candidly, I don't know if that should matter.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, it's an interesting question. I think that's probably your mom's anxiety and avoidance talking. She's afraid that Ellie's gonna come over and be like, you complained about me to your daughter. Like,

Jordan Harbinger: yeah,

Gabriel Mizrahi: you made her tell me that I'm asking for too much.

I thought we were friends. Phyllis like, what the hell? Whereas if she heard that directly from your mom, she would probably have to make some corrections and apologize, or at least I hope she would.

Jordan Harbinger: Our friend did also say that Peter would probably be upset if she didn't talk to him first. So for me, the obvious strategy is talk to mom.

Get her to at least acknowledge how she's feeling so that if anyone talks to her about this, she's at least able to confirm that the visits are kind of hard. Talk to Peter first. Fill him in, see if he can work on Ellie. Then talk to Ellie yourself if and only if necessary.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Or talk to Peter and Ellie together at the same time.

There's that

Jordan Harbinger: or that. Make it a collab. Like how can we all enjoy mom's company without depleting her [00:53:00] so much? I like that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Jordan, I just wanna appreciate once again how fraught all of this is for our friend. I know all families are like this to some degree. There's always some back channeling. There are always concerns about, you know, like who knows what and who talks to whom and who should hear this first and all of that.

But in this family, especially given the conflict avoidance thing, and when a family is this big, which does create more complexity, you can see how much stress it creates for everybody else when they see things differently.

Jordan Harbinger: For sure. And it stems from her mom being unable to stand up for herself in even the most basic of ways.

It's sad. But yeah, a parent like this, they usually can't teach their kids how to have these conflicts because it's impossible for them to do it themselves.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. And now she's dealing with the legacy of that. There's also something, and help me out here, 'cause I, I'm, I feel like I'm circling something and I, I can't quite put my finger on it, but she said she's the youngest child, right?

Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And she seems to be taking a special interest in her mom and her mom's health. And I don't know, I just wonder if there's something in the mix here about her wanting to protect her mom very badly, maybe more than all of the other [00:54:00] siblings. And I just wonder if that's a role that she's taken on herself from an early age.

Maybe. Like, is she the one in the family who usually had to step in and protect mom? Or maybe as the youngest child, did she feel that she never got enough of mom? Because, you know, there were all these older siblings who had got the mom first. And so when she sees Ellie dominating her mom, which I'm not disagreeing, I think that is what's happening.

But maybe that hurts even more because of the childhood she had. And maybe that informs the lens through which she's viewing this whole Ellie and Peter situation. Like she might have some extra resentment because Ellie is touching on a wound of hers from an early age. I'm speculating, but I do wonder if that's something worth exploring.

Jordan Harbinger: Interesting. Could be. So I hope that gives you a way forward here. I'm sorry your mom's going through it at the same time, I'm glad she's so popular and surrounded by so much family, maybe one family more than the others. But still, despite all these challenges, I'm sure that that does give her a lot of joy and meaning.

My hope is that she can have that experience with all of you and still carve out a life for herself. That's crucial for [00:55:00] anyone. But it would be an especially big win for your mom right now. She's lucky to have you looking out for her. I hope you can find a way to influence the situation, sending you allall, a big hug and wishing you all the best.

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Lip Filla Clip: I am addicted to Lit Fella,

Gabriel Mizrahi: so I've been thinking a lot lately about how to preserve and share all of the travels that I've been doing for myself and also for other people.

And I started doing [00:56:00] a couple things on my travels in the last year or two that have been really helpful and I just wanna share them with you. One of them is keeping a log of what I do every day when I'm traveling. You know, just like very brief notes in the Notes app on my phone or an Evernote or something like that.

It's kind of amazing when you're traveling, especially when you're on a brief trip, like 5, 7, 10 days, two weeks, it's a whirlwind and the days start to blur and you can't remember what you did which day, what thing with whom you forget a lot of the stuff you did at all. And so keeping a log, I find helps you track it all.

And I also find that it helps you enjoy it a lot more when you look back and you go, oh yeah, that was a great moment. That was an awesome day. That was the day I met up with Jeff in this city and I did that. You know, it just makes the whole trip more vivid and realer somehow. But also it can be really helpful if you ever want to like organize your photos in an album or tell people the story of your trip when you get home, or remember the name of that restaurant you loved in that place that night.

So there are some practical benefits to this as well. Another thing I started doing a couple years ago, and the log can also [00:57:00] help with this, is marking on Google Maps, the places you went and loved. So you can share that list with other people. So I have two specific recs here. One is creating a custom shareable map in Google Maps.

So easy to do. Basically you can create your own map and you can save locations, and you can give them different categories. You can add notes, and then if you know anyone who's going to that city or that country or whatever and you wanna share your recs, you can just send them your map with a link and they can open it right there on their phone.

It's an amazing tool. The other option is to just type up a list of your favorite recs and save it in a document, or create a shortcut on your computer and email people your list of recs whenever they go. I actually kind of prefer that sometimes, even though it's not as seamless as the Google Maps idea, because it's easier to provide, you know, more commentary and expand on each rec and say like, I love this place.

And when you go make sure you ask for this thing, or look for that thing, or whatever. By the way, this is what I do whenever you guys ask me for Rex for Japan or Portugal or whatever. I have these lists saved and can basically just copy and paste. So [00:58:00] happy to continue doing that for anybody who's interested.

So just a couple of little habits that have made my travels a lot more fun and made it way easier to help other people have a good time when they travel. So give them a go. I think you'll be happy you did

Jordan Harbinger: SolidWorks Gabe, I never type up my recommendations, but I do star a bunch of places in Google Maps so I can refer back to them if I need to.

The log idea, I used to do that when I was younger kind of fell off, but totally agree. It really does help keep track of how you spend your time, what your trip is all about. Big fan of that one. Okay, what's next?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, my son turned six a little over a month ago and he's about to start his third season in our local little league.

At the end of the last season, a board member approached me asking if I would serve on the board the following season for the youngest age group. I said yes, enthusiastically. I played little league for 12 years. My dad never had a strong command of the English language and was never able to coach or sit on the board.

So I'm really happy to be in a position where I can help and support the league and my son.

Jordan Harbinger: That's [00:59:00] really sweet, man. I love that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Fast forward to the prep stage for this upcoming season. I'm in charge of making the team rosters schedule and general communication about league events, which entails fulfilling players and families, requests to play with friends, schoolmates, et cetera, and I see that there were three players who requested to not be on a team with my son.

This didn't bother me until someone on the board forwarded me an email request that an assistant coach's son not be placed on the same team with my son. The dad noted an incident where my son hit and threw his helmet at the coach. I remember the incident. My son got upset because the team was given a set of rules and someone ignored them and threw some things around.

I was quite upset. I took him off the field and had a talk with him. As we rode home, we actually talked extensively about the situation. We even practiced apologizing at the next practice. Ultimately, my son couldn't approach the assistant coach to apologize, and we played the [01:00:00] rest of the season never fully addressing the incident.

Jordan Harbinger: Ugh,

Gabriel Mizrahi: I find it.

Jordan Harbinger: Sorry. That sucks. Continue. Don't let me stop you. That was just

Gabriel Mizrahi: a strong reaction from you. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Come on man.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Let's return to the, uh, shall we?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I find it odd that he, the adult in the situation asked for this request. I could understand if my son did something to his son, but he didn't.

The coach is an adult volunteering to work with youth. Shouldn't he have more patience? Shouldn't my son be given another chance? I've now coached two seasons and can't think of a reason to not have a kid on my team.

Jordan Harbinger: Look. Yeah, I get that. Ken confirm as a dad. The school drama, the little league drama is real amazing how being around children turns all the adults back into eight year olds too.

But it can be ridiculous.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I agree. But I do find it curious, and I wonder if this is what you were getting at a moment ago with your reaction. Three different kids', parents explicitly requested to not play with his son. Right.

Jordan Harbinger: Right.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's a lot of kids.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it, it is. And [01:01:00] so at a minimum that means that it wasn't just this coach who had a problem with the way he behaved.

And I don't know, I have a lot to say. Continue. I

Gabriel Mizrahi: mean, that's assuming that the helmet incident was the only incident, maybe it wasn't Right,

Jordan Harbinger: right. I don't wanna speculate too much, but I, I gotta wonder about that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm a school teacher, so perhaps my 18 years in the classroom and for my take here, I give students many second chances.

And trust me, on most occasions, I don't want to. At any rate, I don't plan on putting his son with my son on the same team, but we will see each other on opening day and on days we play against each other. Part of me wants to be cold. Part of me wants to say, what a bummer. The two boys aren't on the same team.

I really want my son to make neighborhood friends right now. He attends a different school district. He'll likely attend neighborhood schools once he enters middle school, and I want him to have friends and be welcomed by all. How should I handle seeing the dad in person? Should I bring up the incident and acknowledge his request signed?

Stepping up to the plate. To put [01:02:00] down this emotional freight.

Jordan Harbinger: Interesting problem. Super relatable for a lot of parents, I'm sure. Uh, so sorry to my son who's listening to this in 20 years, I'm sure, but my son, Jayden, he bit a kid named Eddie, uh, this is like a year or two ago. He bit a kid named Eddie on the shoulder because Eddie was annoying him and he didn't wanna play with Eddie.

And Eddie's dad saw it, and Eddie's dad texted Jen and was like, Hey, I know this stuff happens, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it wa it was not ideal, you know, obviously it was super embarrassing. We felt really bad about it. The school is really great. So they sort of got involved and they were like, okay, we need to make things right with Eddie and blah, blah, blah.

I know what it's like when your child does something wrong. It's not a fun feeling. And every parent goes through it at some point. So sorry you received this request from this dad. I know it stings as a parent to feel like your child is being rejected or that he's wearing a scarlet letter or whatever.

That said this dad, this assistant coach it. It sounds like two other parents might actually have some good reasons to not want their kids to be on the same team as your son, but look, I'm glad you had [01:03:00] what sounds like a pretty meaningful talk with your son about all this. That was obviously the right thing to do, but it's interesting.

I think this whole situation could probably have been avoided and your son could have, well, he could have got a really good lesson if you both apologized to this coach and his son way back when, when you had the opportunity to do so. You said that ultimately he couldn't approach the assistant coach to apologize.

We played the rest of the season, never fully addressing the incident. My question is why. If it was just a logistics thing, the coach took off early. Everyone was busy after the game, whatever it was your, your son could have called him, he could have emailed him, he could have apologized to the next game.

I'm just assuming that was not his only chance since he played the rest of the season without addressing it. To me personally, it sounds like an avoidance thing. Your son was nervous and he chickened out, and probably frankly, you did too, and that would've been a great moment to say, Hey, I know it's a little scary, but apologizing when you've done something wrong, that's the right thing to do.

We practiced this. You know what to say. Go over there and talk to him. I'll be right here waiting when you're done. Or [01:04:00] you could have walked over to the coach with your son and said, Hey coach, my son wants to say something to you. And forced the moment. My point is I love that you talked with your son extensively about the situation.

I love that you practiced apologizing. You sound like a very conscientious dad, but I really think you missed a great opportunity to help him go all the way with the situation and repair things with this coach and his son, which could have been a great life lesson for your son, a crucial skill for a child to develop.

And it would've avoided this awkwardness and you know, avoided people talking about it for the rest of the season and not having a resolution. 'cause that's probably another reason why other people are like, Hey, I don't want my kid on that team. But now that you're here, I think your best bet is to honor the dad's request.

Put your son's on different teams, and the next time you see him, I would go up to him and say, Hey, I saw your request to have the boys on different teams. I totally understand why. I'm happy to honor that. I'm sorry you felt the need to do that. I'm also sorry about how my son behaved. I had a long talk with him about it.

He actually wanted to explain what happened and apologize to you after the last game, and [01:05:00] it's my fault for not making him do that. So I apologize for that as well. And if your son is there with you, I would make him apologize right then and there and smooth things over. You might also wanna make things right with the other families too, especially if you have a relationship with them and they're in your neighborhood.

I'm gonna guess the assistant coach is the most important person to apologize to because he's the most involved. But what I would not do at all under any circumstances is escalate things with the father. Don't be called to him. Don't say something passive aggressive about how it's a bummer the kids aren't on the same team or whatever.

It's just what do you gain from that? Like I said, Jayden bit this kid, Eddie on the shoulder, the school got involved and you know, he had to make things right with Eddie. On a personal level, they're really big on that social emotional learning stuff, and we have become friends with Eddie's parents. In fact, a few weeks after this whole biting incident, they came over for Jayden's birthday party.

I met the dad and he gave me kind of a sideways look like, okay, does this guy know that this kid bit my kid? And so the first thing I said in front of everybody loudly is, alright, no biting. You know, and [01:06:00] everyone laughed because it's the elephant in the room, right? Dad knows, everybody know. And Jayden was just like, I'm not gonna bite Eddie.

Why would I bite Eddie? And the kids just, you know, they wandered off to play and the parents and we're just kind of all laughing and just kind of diffuses the situation, right? Don't elevate kid drama to the adult tier. Don't bring your little league drama up to the majors. You have no reason to have any beef with that dad at all.

There's no reason to make it worse. Zero.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Such a good story, Jordan. I think it really illustrates such an important point, you know, teaching his son how to behave and how to recognize when he is done something wrong, how to apologize, which is a skill, like any other skill, and make things right with the right people.

It's just so important to teach a kid from a young age. And if his true goal is to help his son make friends and be welcomed by all when he moves into their school district. That's really what he should be focusing on here.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Look, if he doesn't handle this well in four years, his son might enter that new school and all the kids who've been friends for the past decade or whatever, they're gonna be like, oh, that's the punk who threw his helmet at me and had a meltdown on the baseball [01:07:00] diamond when we were kids and never apologized for it.

And then his dad said something else to so-and-so's dad. I mean, you're, that is, this is just avoidable. The whole thing is avoidable. It's, uh, ego is your enemy here. Don't make this worse.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I never got to play team sports as a kid. I never did little league. But it seems to me that the person he is helping his son become through these experiences, the kind of friend he's learning to become, that's the real game being played.

It's not just baseball.

Jordan Harbinger: Isn't that the point of kid sports? I mean, come on. And it sounds like he's already doing that. It's terrific. But you have to go the last mile and I'm sure that your skills as a teacher are gonna be super helpful in helping him do that. Sorry, things played out this way. But you live and you learn both you and your son.

Again, I think this is what little league is for. Good luck. Go back and check out Dr. Abigail Marsh if you haven't done so yet. The best things that have happened in my life in business have come through my network. It's a circle of people I know, like, and trust. I'm teaching you how to do the same thing for free.

It's our Six Minute Networking course. It's free. It's not gross or schmoozy. There's no shenanigans. It's on the Thinkific platform. It's sixminutenetworking.com. The drills take a few minutes a day. [01:08:00] That's really all it is. I wish I knew this stuff 20 years ago. Dig the well before you get thirsty, folks.

Build those relationships before you need them. It's all at Sixminutenetworking.com. Show notes and transcripts on the website, advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show all at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn.

Gabe's on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi. This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tadas Sidlauskas, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. I might be a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Consult a qualified professional before implementing anything you hear on the show.

Ditto Corbin Payne. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.

I think you need top secret clearance to catch war criminals. In this preview, Elliot Higgins shows how everyday citizens with nothing but [01:09:00] wifi and curiosity are uncovering global crimes that governments tried to bury.

JHS Trailer: Bellingcat does something called open source investigations. Thanks to smartphone technology, social media, and the wealth of information we have online stuff like Google Maps, giving you satellite imagery, ship tracking websites, plane tracking websites, all kinds of information that's accessible to you.

Now, I started doing this in 2012 as a hobby. I just tried to figure out how can you prove if a video is film somewhere? And I realized that you could compare landmarks visible in the video with satellite imagery and do a kind of spot the difference fit. Now, that's a technique known as geolocation, but back then it was just me playing adult spot.

The difference on social media platform, I think when we live in an era where the truth is constantly contested, especially on the internet, it's good to have something where you can not only point to the evidence, but the actual process you used to come to your conclusions. And open it up for debate because there is a tendency for people just to read stuff that reinforces what they already believe and that [01:10:00] causes a lot of problems.

If we're gonna have a debate about something, it should be on actual facts, not just the opinions of a new paper columnist. You've just read. What we do is important. It's not just about allowing people to see our working, but giving them the ways to actually do it themselves. And if we let the world just be run by people who want you to shut up, then it's gonna be a very dark place.

Indeed. For me, it's really about taking open source investigation and guessing as many people as possible to use it. Yeah, I'll just say, give it a go if you're interested. 'cause that's what I did and I turned out quite well.

Jordan Harbinger: To hear how Bellingcat is using open source sleuthing to expose war crimes and rewrite the rules of intelligence, check out episode 1192 of The Jordan Harbinger Show. If you like this show, there's another podcast you should check out. If you wanna stay informed about what's happening around the world without drowning in noise, check out The President's Daily Brief. It's built for people who want the big stories fast and clear.

Think 20 minutes in the morning, then a quick 10 minute update in the afternoon. Just focused coverage of the developments [01:11:00] shaping the world right now from the Middle East and Venezuela to China, Russia, and beyond, with an emphasis on what actually has real world consequences for the United States. The show's hosted by Mike Baker, a veteran of the CIA with decades of firsthand experience.

So you're getting smart analysis from somebody who's been inside the system. You get straightforward context to help you understand what's happening and why it matters. Follow The President's Daily Brief wherever you get your podcasts and stay ahead of the curve.