526: What to Do When Your Teen Attempts Suicide | Feedback Friday

What to Do When Your Teen Attempts Suicide | Feedback Friday (Episode 526)

Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host Jordan harbinger. Today, I'm here with my Feedback Friday producer, my sidekick in salvation Gabriel Mizrahi. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. We want to help you see the Matrix when it comes to how amazing people think and behave. And our mission on this show is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. So you can get a much deeper understanding of how the world works and make sense of what's really happening, even inside your own mind.

[00:00:37] Now, if you're new to the show on Fridays, we give advice to you and answer listener questions. The rest of the week, we have long-form interviews and conversations with a variety of amazing folks from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, as performers, mafia hit-man, astronauts. If you're joining us for the first time or you're looking for a handy way to tell your friends about the show, we've got the starter packs, those are on the websites. Those are collections of favorite episodes organized by popular topics to help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit jordanharbinger.com/start to get started. 

[00:01:11] This week on the podcast we had Nicholas Christakis. He described something called the network effect, how habits and behaviors of our friends and our friends' friends end up affecting us. This is fascinating social science, which you all know I love to do on the show. Gabriel, this is kind of amazing. It turns out if your friend's friend who you've never met smokes, you're X percent more likely to smoke or to over eat. 

[00:01:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh wow. 

[00:01:34] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:01:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: Interesting. 

[00:01:35] Jordan Harbinger: It's interesting. And it's also a little bit depressing because it's like, well, of course I have some friends that are doing bad things, smoking, eating too much, overweight, whatever, right? And I've got my own vices and bad habits. Well, it turns out that all of my vices in bad habits and all of their vices and bad habits, they basically pollute the entire social network that we have, even if we don't freaking know those people. So you can be friends with zero people that are absolutely perfect in your estimation, and you're still getting screwed, unless everybody around them is also doing the same thing. And it goes like four degrees. 

[00:02:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: That is wild. 

[00:02:08] Jordan Harbinger: So yeah, it's really crazy. 

[00:02:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: Super useful. Good to know. 

[00:02:11] Jordan Harbinger: Good to know. Yeah. We also had Robert H. Frank, who studies successful people and success in general, and he described the role that luck plays in our lives, not just in business, but in our lives in general, as well as why many of us are so reluctant to acknowledge the role of luck when we're successful. So this is one from the vault. It seems especially timely somehow. Gabe, we all know people that think this is all due to my hard work. And it's kind of like if you zoom out far enough, there's some lucky sh*t happening in your life. I mean, even— 

[00:02:40] Gabriel Mizrahi: Always. 

[00:02:41]  Jordan Harbinger: I can find numerous examples of being extremely, like, just lucky as hell, even in the most unfortunate seeming events in my life. Like having to restart before the pandemic and having this fallout with the business partners and having the contract negotiations go the way that it did. Now, I'm like, wow, that was so fortunate that I didn't get what I thought I wanted at that time. Right? Even getting laid off from my job on Wall Street, well, they asked us all to leave, right? And I didn't get the layoff, but I got the payout. It was 2008. I thought my life was over. My career is over. This is terrible. Start this...amazing success story. So it's just  unbelievable luck in many people's lives when you are successful and you can always find it. But of course, people don't want to admit that. So we discussed that in-depth on the show and how we can do better and also what we can do when people refuse to acknowledge that. 

[00:03:30] I also write every so often on the blog, the latest post is called Six Things That Seem Like a Waste of Time, but actually are not. I really enjoyed this one. It's all about the activities we think are indulgent or useless, like daydreaming or making friends with random people that are outside of our industry, that we may never meet online or going on vacation, cleaning the house. I don't know how many people think cleaning the house is a waste of time. I kind of do, but you know, whatever. These are activities that — well, look, we draw on the latest scientific research, my own experience. We talk about the important benefits, physical, mental, even spiritual dare I say. The benefits of enjoying experiences that a lot of hustle bros and self-help gurus are saying that are a waste of time. So it turns out those things are quite the opposite. And if we want to get ahead, we actually have to waste our time more effectively. So you can find that jordanharbinger.com/articles.  The articles are on the blog. Make sure you've had a look and to listen to everything we created for you here in the past couple of weeks.

[00:04:27]All right. Some fun ones and some doozies as usual, we got to dooz for number  one. So let's dive right in. 

[00:04:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe, I'm a 32-year-old mother of three. My oldest girl is 12 turning 13 in a couple of months. My middle daughter is almost 11 and my son is seven. I run my own business as a massage therapist, and I spend a lot of time at work. I had my first two children with a boyfriend from high school. I had my son with someone else. That was a pretty short-lived relationship. I now have a fiance who is amazing to me and my children. My son's father. He's very involved in his life, but my daughter's father only visits them at his mother's house. I don't have a lot of respect for him as he has no responsibility for his two girls. In fact, until the other night, I didn't even know his phone number because we never talked. My girls think that my son had an easier life because when they were little, I was in college, a broke single mom and busting my ass to get to where I am today. They had to do a lot for themselves and helped me out a great deal. When my son was a baby, getting him ready for daycare and stuff like that. And they definitely hold all of that against me. Fast forward to today, and my 12 year old has been spending a lot of time alone in her room. I try to give her space while also trying hard to have a connection with her and to talk to her about school. But if I come in or I try to talk to her or I try to get her to hang out with us, she just barks at me to go away. She's also always enjoyed hanging out with the misfit types. She likes cosplay and drama class. She doesn't like sports. She's very smart in science and math. And she's very talented at drawing.

[00:05:57] Jordan Harbinger: What's cosplay again?

[00:05:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: Cosplay is like dressing up as characters.

[00:06:00] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, right, right, right, right. So you dress up like Star Wars or something like that or whatever, or like anime. Yeah, okay. 

[00:06:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, exactly. Then a few days ago while my partner and I were at work, she decided to take 18 Tylenol after lunch. 

[00:06:13] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man. 

[00:06:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: She was doing school at home with her sister. She was tired all evening. Didn't say anything. And then she passed out in bed. I just assumed that she had been up late the night before, but by midnight she was throwing up. I thought she had a stomach bug, but she continued to throw up for several hours until she finally told me that she had taken all those pills. I called poison control and I took her to the hospital and she's still there now. My heart is broken and I'm not sure what to do or where to go from here. I just want to make sure that I can keep her safe and help her get back to a healthy state of mind. How do I bring my daughter home? Signed, Rebuilding the Nest.

[00:06:48] Jordan Harbinger: So this is very sad. How old is she? 12, right? 

[00:06:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: She's 12, about to turn 13. 

[00:06:53] Jordan Harbinger: Goodness. Well, I didn't even think about until very recently, young kids having this much emotional distress. You know, you usually think about suicide and those kinds of self-harm as either teenager stuff or like young adult or adult stuff. I mean, seldom do you think that somebody, that age would feel that strongly and do these kinds of things, but I think it's becoming more and more common. 

[00:07:16] And I'm sorry that you're going through this. I'm so sorry to hear that your daughter is suffering in this way. As a parent, that could only be just absolutely terrifying and heartbreaking, and your daughter, it sounds like she's dealing with a lot of stuff here. There are some very complex dynamics at play in your family. I say that with zero judgment. I'm not trying to say that you set up a mess here. I'm only noticing what you've brought up in your letter. The distant relationship with her father having to pseudo-parent her brother, being on her own a lot, probably having some complicated feelings in general. Your daughter's wrestling with a lot, just even the age on top of just being pre-teen/teenager. She also sounds like a very sensitive person. She's into drawing. She's into cosplay, she's into drama. So I'm guessing she's especially vulnerable to everything that's been going on and going on around. 

[00:08:05] Obviously suicide, especially teenage suicide, is a complicated topic. I wanted to make sure that we had a good grasp of things here. So we consulted with Dr. Erin Margolis, clinical psychologist and friend of the show. And the first thing we learned from Dr. Margolis was that any suicide attempts, that always and very unfortunately increases the risk of future attempts. So the priority here as you bring your daughter home, is to keep her safe. And that begins with increasing supervision of your daughter. If she still has any suicidal ideation, then Dr. Margolis doesn't recommend ever leaving her at home alone. I know that sounds like a tall order, but you got to be safe here. She also recommends locking up all medications, literally buy a lockbox, make sure you're the only one who has the key, not a code, a key, unless you can keep a code safe, which I don't know about you.

[00:08:58] I feel like teenagers, they can get stuff, right? They can get stuff. 

[00:09:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm also writing that down on a Post-It and putting it on the fridge or something. 

[00:09:04] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, just like, "Oh, she doesn't know how to get it in my phone. She won't find it," you know, that kind of thing. So if your daughter has any self-harming tendencies, like cutting, you got to lock up the sharp objects too. This is just sort of baseline safety plan stuff. Then once your daughter is home, you should start checking in with her frequently. And that means popping into a room, keeping tabs on her, and being annoying. Make sure she's okay. Dr. Margolis recommends avoiding the temptation to pepper her with a lot of questions or get too deep into the why of first suicide attempt.

[00:09:35] As a fellow human here, I can see why that would be tempting for a parent to do, but also highly annoying and invasive for somebody who probably doesn't know what to talk about that all the time. So as a parent, you're probably going to want to find an explanation here. You're going to want to solve the problem. But in these early days, post attempt, Dr. Margolis recommends focusing on practical crisis management, making sure your daughter is stable. Validating, whatever your daughter is going through. Once she's more stable, then you can start exploring the why of it all, but not too soon. 

[00:10:06] And when you check in, don't be afraid to ask very directly about any suicidal ideas, things like, "Are you thinking about trying again? Are you making any plans?" Some people worry that if you ask someone directly about suicide, you're somehow planting the idea in their head, but you are not. If your daughter is thinking about this, then she's thinking about this and you acknowledging it and you inviting her to talk about it, that's actually very crucial to keeping her safe. A lot of experts also find that using a zero to 10 distress scale is the best way to check in. So I would establish in advance with your daughter, what the ratings mean? Of course, like zero means super chill, no suicidal ideation. Five means struggling, but able to cope on her own. 10 means not safe, got to go to the hospital right now. That sort of thing and everything in between. 

[00:10:53] Now, I know that your daughter has been pushing you away when you try to talk to her good old teenagers, right? But you cannot let that stop you from checking in on her right now. And the fact that she's been pushing you away, I know that this is confusing and counterintuitive, but that might actually be a sign that she wants to keep you close again, teenagers right? Dr. Margolis pointed out that all children, they need containment. They need an adult, usually a parent, a key person in their life. Someone who can accept their distress, relieve their anxieties, make their feelings and experiences safe for them. A child will prickle or rebel if you contain too much. We've all experienced that if you've ever had a teenager or been one, but they also need that structure and that support, they need a balance of containment and autonomy.

[00:11:43] So your daughter might continue to react when you check in with her but mom, you just have to tolerate the discomfort of that resistance. If you knock on her door and she's like, "Go away, mom, I hate you." That doesn't mean you have to go away. You can pop your head in any way and say, "I know you're mad at me right now, sweetie. And I know you want me to go away, but before I do that, I need to know if you're okay. How are we doing? Zero, five, 10. Make her check in with you. Make her engage in this very basic way. She can just throw a number out. She doesn't have to say anything else, right? Because right now it sounds to me like your daughter's kind of running the show here and you want to respect that, which I get.

[00:12:19] But the fact is you're the mom here. You're the adult. You need to be around. You need to be in tune, especially right now, because this is a fragile time. So if you're going to make sure your daughter is okay, you're going to have to tolerate your daughter, getting mad at you, rejecting you sometimes saying crappy stuff, even though it hurts, but Dr. Margolis also pointed out that your daughter, yeah, she might want you to go away on one level, but on another level she might be testing you. You've been away for a lot of her childhood. And I'm not saying this to make you feel guilty. You've been working nonstop to provide for her. Now, she might be really craving your presence. So when she says, "Mom, go away," and then you go away. You might feel like you're respecting her autonomy when really it's you kind of confirming that you're not going to be there when she needs you the most. Complicated stuff, I know. And again, I have a two year old, so take it with a grain of salt. This is from Dr. Margolis, not from very, very  limited slash nil experience parenting. So I want to throw that grain of salt out there that I am not the source of all these, but I think are really great. 

[00:13:21] And that's also why the next thing you should do. And I would be working on this right now to get your daughter into therapy ASAP. She has a lot of work to do a lot, and you need to give her the space to do that starting now. Her father basically abandoned her. There's not much of a relationship there. I'd have words with that guy if I were standing in front of him. But you know what? For now, he is an irrelevant POS. You were physically present and doing your best as a single mom. I can only imagine how hard that is, but you were away a lot. You were studying, you were working. Maybe you weren't really available to her. And again, Gabe, I'm trying so hard, not to point fingers, right? Or to sound like I'm pointing fingers because I can only imagine how hard it is to be in this woman's position. So I don't want it to be like, "Oh, well, you weren't there and this is all your fault." But it is possible that your daughter felt and still feels emotionally abandoned to some degree, even if that wasn't your intent. And maybe she doesn't feel like she has the space to be heard and to process everything that that brings up for her.

[00:14:20] Dr. Margol has pointed out that whether she meant to or not, your daughter is communicating some significant distress through this suicide attempt. This might have been the only possible way that she could think of to communicate her pain. And let me be clear about. I'm not saying that this was just attention-seeking behavior or whatever. That's not what I'm saying at all. We all feel that that's a pretty dismissive read of the situation. She might've been trying to get your attention, but that doesn't mean that there's not a real legitimate need here. Whatever her intention, she was desperately communicating something, basically how much pain she's in. That's what your daughter needs to be working through with a profession. And if you can swing it, then go into family therapy together would also be huge for you guys. And if you can go to therapy on your own, I also realized this is a ton of therapy. It adds up, but I'm just throwing it out there. If you can get some support for yourself, that would be great. You guys are all going through this and you shouldn't have to deal with it on your own, but therapy for your daughter I feel like that is not even optional, right? That just has to be a top priority. 

[00:15:23] Dr. Margolis also pointed out that intervening at this stage is extremely important because she's still so young. If you can get her the help that she needs, it'll prevent her from developing more severe issues down the road. So don't wait, don't wait, don't kick it down the road. Don't think, "Oh, I think we're past the worst of it." Find a good therapist right now. Make it work. Find a way to make it work. It's essential.

[00:15:44] Gabe, I'm resisting the urge to analyze the family too much here, but some of the facts that she mentioned, they kind of do paint a picture. I'm not trying to make the mother feel bad. Like I said, because I know she was doing her best. She's probably done a lot of things right. But the family dynamic, they've got to be playing a role in what her daughter is going through. It does sound like kind of a mess. 

[00:16:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, definitely playing a role. I mean, all family dynamics play a role in everybody's life. And Dr. Margolis picked up on this as well. I mean, just having three different men rotating through this family, even if they're good people, even if they're great people that can create a lot of instability. I mean, even if their house itself isn't chaotic or louder, abusive or anything like that, just having a revolving door of parental figures. I could see that being very inconsistent. 

[00:16:27] Jordan Harbinger: There's lots of attachment traumas and triggers here. It could be a minefield. 

[00:16:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: Definitely. And then her daughter is looking at her younger brother, the one who has the good dad, and I can imagine her going, you know, "Why does he get the good parent? Why don't I have a dad like that?" I wonder if she was internalizing the message, "What's wrong with me that I don't get to have that parent? 

[00:16:45] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Yeah. Her daughter can help compare herself to her little brother because he's right there in the same house. There's a compare-contrast, right? It just makes the abandonment even more vivid in contrast. Like, "Oh, you forgot that maybe your dad sucked. Let me highlight what a good dad looks like right in front of you in the same freaking room with somebody that you're related to and close to. This is what you should have been. Bye." 

[00:17:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: I really feel for her plus she has to take care of him. She's playing mom to her brother when she's still a child. And that's definitely problematic, even if it was necessary. It makes me wonder if she feels like she didn't get to just be a kid, right? Who doesn't have to worry about parenting somebody else when they're eight years old or seven or however old she was. And like you said, Jordan, her daughter does sound especially vulnerable given her personality, the fact that she's so passionate about art and drama and cosplay, but you know, that's interesting too. Drama, drawing, cosplay, those could also be — I could see those being powerful forms of escape. 

[00:17:40] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. That's a good point. I hadn't thought about that. Although I am resisting the urge to be like, if you dress up as a character you're escaping from your life, you know, I think there maybe there is some of that, but— 

[00:17:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. 

[00:17:50] Jordan Harbinger: Maybe there is some of that. 

[00:17:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. I'm also resisting that urge, but it did jump out. It's possible that this girl's reality is so intense that it feels pretty intolerable sometimes. Maybe when she dresses up or she plays a character, which she's actually doing or saying is, "Get me out of here," right? And the suicide attempt was just one more attempt to escape. 

[00:18:09] Jordan Harbinger: Just one more reason that mom needs to be a consistent presence for her daughter right now. 

[00:18:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, absolutely. That will be very grounding. 

[00:18:16] Jordan Harbinger: And that's not on mom to fix by herself. This is the stuff that her daughter needs to work on with her therapist. And, you know, given your daughter's interest, maybe you consider certain forms of therapy that would be especially helpful for her like art therapy. I know very little about this, but I know that this can be very powerful. Just make sure you're not seeing some quack who makes her draw a few pictures of a house and calls it a day. Make sure she's seeing somebody with real credentials, somebody who understands child development, adolescent issues, who has good rapport with your daughter, who can get deep and make the appropriate interventions with her 

[00:18:50] Gabe, I'm thinking of some of those animal therapy places where like, some of them are really great and they have these great success rates and other people are like, "Yeah, go ride the horse. Congratulations. You're not an alcoholic anymore." Like it makes no sense. There's a huge— 

[00:19:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. 

[00:19:02] Jordan Harbinger: —a huge range of therapies. So bottom line, you need to show up for your daughter right now in a new way, come up with a safety plan, get her into therapy ASAP, strongly consider family therapy as well. Start being more present and consistent with your daughter. Be firmer with her. Be more attuned, basically be the mom she really needs right now. And for you, I'm sure you're dealing with some serious anxiety after all this. This is truly traumatic stuff. So I strongly encourage you to start individual therapy as well. You just all need a lot of support right now.  

[00:19:34] Well, hopefully, not in advance. Hopefully, nothing happens, but I would pull together a list of crisis hotlines if you ever can't reach your therapist or you need some emergency help. You're going to want to have those numbers handy. You're not going to want to be freaking googling it in the moment. We'll link to two great lists of phone numbers and resources in the show. Print them out, put them on the fridge and screenshot them. And I would add them to your phone. I would add them into your phone so you can just click it. You're not dialing with shaky hands if something goes wrong. Whatever it is, keep them close by. Share them with everyone in the house. 

[00:20:05] You know, now that I think about it. Gabe, I'm on the fence. If you put it on the fridge, is it just going to be like a red flag to the girl? Like, "Ooh, we need this because you're trouble," or is it helpful to have there?

[00:20:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's a good question. I wonder if it would say, like, "Let's talk about it if we ever get into a tough situation and if we do, let's pick up the phone and I'll be here with you and we'll call them together." 

[00:20:24] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:20:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: I think the more they can de-stigmatize it probably the better right now. 

[00:20:29] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Because it'd be kind of embarrassing if you know, friends come over and it's like, "Ooh, why do you have crisis hotlines in every room?" "Oh, well, you know, my mom thinks I'm an unstable, crazy person." 

[00:20:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: Fair enough. Maybe the phone is the best place for that. As long as it's close by, I think, is the point. 

[00:20:42] Jordan Harbinger: If you can do all that this whole crisis could be actually, it could be a huge inflection point in your family. And I'm so sorry that it came to this, but this could be a chance to repair your relationship with your daughter, give her a different kind of support from what you thought she needed. Maybe find some healing as a family. I hope you get to do that. I really do. We're thinking about your daughter, we're rooting for you and we're wishing you all the best.

[00:21:05] By the way you all, you can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise, try to use a descriptive subject line that does make our job a lot easier. If you're asking for any sort of legal advice, you know, even if you're not include the state and the country that you live in that can help us give you more detailed advice. If there's something you're going through, any big decision you're wrestling with, or you just need a new perspective on stuff, life, love, work. What to do if you're alcoholic mom is totally spinning out, whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help. We keep every email anonymous

[00:21:40] You're listening to Feedback Friday here on The Jordan Harbinger Show. We'll be right back. 

[00:21:47] This episode is sponsored in part by Brand Crowd. Brand Crowd is an awesome logo maker tool that can help you make an amazing logo design online. Using high quality hand-crafted designs, Brand Crowd takes your business name and industry and generates thousands of custom logos just for you in seconds. It's actually cool how this works. Go to brandcrowd.com/. You can enter the name of your business or your own name. You can enter keywords you'd like to incorporate in the logo, like Jordan fitness, Jordan bear, or whatever. It's fun. Try it out for free. Just go give it a shot. Within seconds, Brand Crowd will spit out thousands of logos for you. You can browse all of them. Change the font, change the color, change the layout to as many as you like. You save them and you pick the ones you like, and you can just buy the design files right then and there. The whole thing is customizable, kind of an impressive, cool little tool. 

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[00:22:43] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by LifeLock. According to a recent study, 330 million people became victims of cybercrime. And another 55 million had their identity stolen. This can cost victims money but it also takes up a ton of time. Cybercrime victims collectively spent almost 2.7 billion hours trying to resolve their issues, which is insane. Imagine what humanity could have accomplished if we weren't cleaning up the messes from all these dumb companies getting hacked and all these dumb hackers hacking our crap. Come on. I use LifeLock, which helps detect a wide range of identity threats, like my social security number for sale on the dark web, which apparently is just a favorite because it's always out there and I keep getting these notifications, but I just call LifeLock. They've got a restoration specialist that will help me clean up all of that stuff and plug some of those holes if you do become a victim and they'll help you get your stuff offline. 

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[00:23:48] Jordan Harbinger: And now back to Feedback Friday on The Jordan Harbinger Show. 

[00:23:54] All right, what's next? 

[00:23:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe, I'm fairly convinced that my boss is a psychopath and I work closely with another colleague, a woman in her 40s who also seems to be a psychopath. I know more than a hundred people, at least as well as I know these two. So it's not statistically unlikely that there could be two psychopaths in my life. I am so grateful for your episode of Thomas Erickson. He was actually the one who provided the model of psychopathy that made everything click. With my coworker in particular, much of the time she's polite and charming. If she needs something or there's a financial situation to be settled between our different departments, she is as Ericsson said always trying to leave me with the bill. She will fight me over since that she thinks I owe, but insist that I pay hundreds for an item that could be charged to either department or shared without batting an eyelid or acknowledging the hypocrisy. Otherwise, she's friendly, smiling. She even offers to take my rubbish out sometime. Recently, she actually had to perform CPR on someone suffering a heart attack. And afterwards she seemed very much unperturbed. I've been subtly setting boundaries and not sharing too much about my mental health and so on, which was my first inclination in order to build rapport. My question is this: how can I be sure that my assessment of my coworker is correct? The psychopathy always manifest as predatory behavior. Are all psychopaths assholes or are some not so bad? And how should I deal with this person going forward? Signed, Engaging the Ferocity of All This Psychopathy. 

[00:25:19] Jordan Harbinger: Man, Gabe, we've been getting a lot of psychopath questions lately, huh? We're even getting yelled at for using that term but you know, whatever.

[00:25:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: There does seem to be a little uptick. Maybe people are on the lookout now, I'm guessing. 

[00:25:29] Jordan Harbinger: Or maybe we've all been stuck inside watching true crime docs for the past 18 months. And we're all super paranoid.

[00:25:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: Also possible. 

[00:25:36] Jordan Harbinger: The Thomas Erickson episode was fascinating though. That was episode 465, by the way, and surprise, surprise, we actually consulted with him on this question. We figured we might as well get the guy who literally wrote the book about psychopaths to chime. And Thomas, his first reaction was this. Whenever he hears someone say that they're encountering multiple psychopaths, like, "My neighbor's a psychopath. My boss is a psychopath. And the guy I met on Plenty of Fish is a psychopath." He usually thinks that's highly unlikely, but it doesn't mean it's absolutely impossible. It's just statistically, it's not super common. 

[00:26:09] So this colleague of yours, she could be a psychopath, but she could also just be a narcissist, meaning she's highly self-centered in a non-charming way without being evil. The way a psychopath might be. According to Thomas, the psychopath is always much cannier and definitely more, non-empathic. There's usually not much of an emotional life there at all. So how can you tell? Thomas shared an interesting way of finding out if somebody in your office might be a psychopath and that is to track whether they perform any actual work. Psychopaths, they like to dump loads of work on other people, and they often have an excuse for why they can't do it themselves. Then, of course, they'll turn around and take credit for just about anything that they can. So if your colleague is exhibiting that kind of behavior on a regular basis, maybe you do have a psychopath on your hands. If not, it's possible, she's just your garden variety assh*le. 

[00:27:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. Maybe she's just kind of slick and manipulative. I mean, for all we know, Jordan, she just doesn't want to explain those expenses to her boss. So she's charging them to the person who wrote in just to cover her own ass. 

[00:27:12] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, like a plot twist. Her boss is an assh*le and is a psychopath. So she's like, "Ooh, I need to figure out how to offload this. You can get the ax." These terms, even terms like narcissist. They get thrown around a lot these days. We've got an email like, "Hey, you're using this term too much, or you're using the term psychopath and we don't use that anymore." I'm probably guilty of that more than I'd like to admit. And obviously, there are degrees here of narcissism. Someone can be narcissistic, even toxically so without meeting the criteria for narcissistic personality disorder or NPD. So we have to be careful about the language we use. And I say that as somebody who's only mildly careful about the language that we use. 

[00:27:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: Good point, good point. As for your question about whether all psychopaths are assh*les. Thomas did have an interesting response to that as well. He said the more interesting question might be, "Are all assh*les psychopaths?" I thought that was an interesting way to look at it. Some people just aren't very kind. They're not very friendly. They're rude, they're jealous, they're greedy, whatever it is. A lot of people just think of themselves, but to Jordan's point that doesn't make them clinical. So if you want your dynamic with this person to change, Thomas recommends trying to set some limits, which it sounds like you're already doing, but you could go a little farther. You could point out that not everything can go in this colleague's favor and then demand an answer to that.

[00:28:28] Obviously, you'll want to do this in a non antagonistic way because psychopaths, I mean, if this person turns out to be a psychopath, they don't react to that kind of thing the way normal people do. So you might just want to be careful there, but I would try that and see what happens. If she explodes on you or backstabs you in a meeting later or leaves a dead squirrel in your trash or something like that then — yeah, I don't know why I've thought of squirrels. I think I'm thinking about the psychopath question from a few weeks ago. 

[00:28:52] Jordan Harbinger: That's right. 

[00:28:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Not to make light of that, but that was pretty terrifying, but you know, she retaliates in some serious way, you're probably dealing with a more serious case here. If you just ruffle her feathers and she quickly backs down, then she's probably not a real threat, but at least you'll have changed your relationship for the better. But Thomas did say that if she's truly a psychopath, then she'll probably have allies in the office. There are a lot of useful idiots who do errands for this kind of personality. So you should know that she might go after you for even daring to challenge her. As Thomas pointed out sometimes even with an implicit, okay from management. So be careful. Consider all the risks here. Because part of me wants you to put this piece of work in her place, but part of me is also afraid you're going to end up as a lampshade in her bedroom or something.

[00:29:36] Jordan Harbinger: I suppose that's always possible to tread carefully. I know we're going to get letters like, "Not all psychopaths are murderers. You guys are terrible," whatever. This is why I like Thomas, his final piece of advice. If this person turns out to be a psychopath for real, just walk away, literally like, forget it. Change jobs, if you can stop working with her, whatever it is, she will not change. And I would maybe take that a step further and say, if this person seems like trouble, just keep your guard up, minimize your contact. Stay the hell away. She's bad news regardless. It's not on you to change her. Good luck. 

[00:30:07] All right, what's next?

[00:30:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey guys, my boyfriend and I have been together for two years. We lived together and just had a baby. I recently moved states and my older children to be with him. He broke up with his ex/baby mama to pursue our relationship, which I know is a red flag. I now have a superficial, but decent relationship with her separately. I also caught him having a Tinder account for nine months during our long distance relationship. Fool me once, am I right? Still, I don't want to give up. My boyfriend is now looking to change jobs. Today, his ex called him to say that she had an opening as her clinical specialist and she wants him to take the job. It would be a step into a field that he's wanting to be a part of and more money. But my knee jerk reaction was hell no. She would be his boss and they were to work together as a team. In the past, she's expressed her desire to get back together with him so they could be a family. Am I missing something here? Or is this a horrible idea? I want to be supportive of his career aspirations, but really? Signed, Feeling Like a Mama Bear About This Baby Mama Scare.

[00:31:10] Jordan Harbinger: All right. So I'm going to be pretty blunt here. This situation calls for some pretty direct advice. This is super freaking dysfunctional, this situation you're in. Gabe, let me make sure I got this straight. So to the writer, your boyfriend left the mother of his children to be with  you. And it sounds like you did the same, maybe left your significant other to be with him. I guess it's not inherently bad, obviously that can happen for good reasons. But you're the one who thinks this is a red flag, but then he's cheating on you while you guys were officially together. Or at least he considered cheating on you. Let's be honest, you don't just have a Tinder account to kill time. You caught him doing that, but it doesn't sound like you guys really resolved anything. And then you had a baby together after that. So, you know, this might've been a mistake on your part, but you don't want to give up on him so you said. 

[00:31:56] So now his ex-girlfriend/co-parent, who clearly wants him back and has said as much, she's offering him a job and you don't trust him enough to support him in taking it. So yeah, this is a freaking mess. Ideally, you and your boyfriend would have sorted out the infidelity stuff long before you committed to him. You would have decided whether this is somebody you trust before you had a child together. And when his ex offered him this job, if you guys had all these healthy boundaries and appropriate relationships, no lingering trust issues, then you could have supported him and taking it, knowing that it would be good for his career. That's how this situation should look or at least how it could look, but it doesn't look like that because you guys aren't really addressing any of this stuff. 

[00:32:38] So my advice to you is this. If you can, you can't trust your boyfriend enough to take this job without starting up again with his ex, then there are deeper problems in your relationship. I would focus on resolving those first. I would figure out why you're so eager to overlook this stuff. I would strongly encourage your boyfriend to get to the root of his infidelity. And I would start communicating much more openly about your concerns, about your values, about your expectations for each other and for your relationship. I'm not saying you're crazy for being suspicious about this woman's woman. She literally said that she wants him back and this job offer may just be a way to get back in his orbit. And I get that they're already in each other's lives, they have a child together that ties them together pretty much for life. But you chose this guy knowing his baggage. Now, it's on him to define the nature of his relationship with his ex, tell her what will and won't happen between them and set the boundary. 

[00:33:34] If you can work with your boyfriend to do that, and hopefully address the other issues that you have, then you've got a shot at making this unconventional situation work. But it's going to take some conscious effort and a lot of growth. I hope you get to do that. 

[00:33:48] Gabe, was that too dismissive? This is a cluster f*ck if I'm just being blunt here. 

[00:33:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm a hundred percent in agreement. I mean, we're not trying to be rude, but it sounds like you already know that this is a problem and you're acknowledging it that it's a problem, which is a good thing, but you can't just acknowledge it if you're not going to do something about it. You can't just sit back and complain that the situation is dysfunctional. I think you know that there are issues here and I hope you get to work on them. 

[00:34:09] Jordan Harbinger: And look, I do wish the best for you. Obviously you're going through some stuff. You've got kids in the mix. I hope you solve it. I really do wish you luck. 

[00:34:15] All right. What's next? 

[00:34:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, you all, before COVID I worked as a full-time audiovisual technician, providing sound, lighting and video services for live events. When everything shut down, I nearly lost my job, but was fortunate enough that my company put me in a new role. I now work full time as an audiovisual installation technician, permanently installing video conferencing systems. It's a pretty cool job. And I do like it quite a bit, but the company was recently awarded a series of jobs that has required me to be away from home five days out of the week for the past two months. And for the next five to seven months with a ton of overtime every week, which has taken a pretty big toll on my mental and physical health. The problem is I don't know what else I would do. I don't think I want to move on from the company as I've been with them for over five years. And I like them and my coworkers a lot. There are a lot of new roles I could go after, within the company, but the person I would talk to about this has a tough personality that I don't always know how to handle. I fear the rejection and I don't want it to lead to me being let go or worse being stuck in the position I'm in now, and then not being offered new opportunities because they think I hate my job. Is there a good way to go about asking for new jobs within my current company, without knowing exactly what I want to do? Or is there a way to make myself feel less burnt out when I'm clearly sick of traveling all the time for work? Or should I be searching for a new job elsewhere? Thanks guys. I love your show. Signed, Audio Visualizing a New Future. 

[00:35:39] Jordan Harbinger: This is a good question. And it sounds like you're seriously burned out and ready for a change. So here's how I would do that. First thing first, I think you're putting the cart before the horse here a little bit, you're looking for a change, but because you don't know exactly what you want, you don't know how to ask for it, which totally makes sense. So my first piece of advice is to do some homework, study the other departments and roles at your company. Reach out to a few people, doing those jobs now, and book a quick call with them. Ask them what they do, what their lifestyle is like. If they're happy. Get to know your options in more detail if you do this legwork, you'll also be doing something else that's super important, which is building relationships within your company. 

[00:36:19] That way, when you ask to be transferred to another division, you'll already have some allies there. Who knows? Maybe these people can even put in a good word for you when you make the request, they can ask for you to be part of their team. This is clutch. It's something I recommend to people in any company and any industry who want to transfer to a new team. Start by getting to know the people that you want to work with. Build those relationships in advance. Let the relationships open the door rather than the other way around. And while you do that, ask yourself if you could enjoy doing those roles more than your current one, and this isn't just a grass is always greener kind of thing.

[00:36:54] If not, you need to know that changing departments is not going to solve your problem, but if you would be happier, great, you've got a good neck. Then, and only then would I go talk to this guy, the gatekeeper of new roles with the tough personality. And I think a nice way to frame this would be, "Thanks for making some time for me. First of all, I just want to say how much I love working here. I'm super grateful that you guys gave me a new role when COVID hit. That was huge for me. You saved my bacon. I really appreciate it. As you know, I've been doing this AV installation technician role for a little over a year. I actually really love it. I've learned a ton. It's interesting work, but as you can imagine, being away from home five days out of the week with a ton of overtime every week, months on end, it's starting to take a bit of a toll. I'm not feeling great. My body's rundown. I'm exhausted. I need a change. I've been looking at some of the other open positions. And I'm just wondering if you'd consider me for one of those roles. I'd love to keep working for you. And this is how I can make that happen." Something like that. You don't have to follow the script, you know, it's just a rough outline, but you got to highlight the good. 

[00:37:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: I love that outline, Jordan, actually, I think it's pretty much perfect. Now, this supervisor, he might say yes, in which case your problem is solved, or he might say no, or just be a dick about it and be difficult about transferring you in which case, you know, you have it. Either you look for a new job or you stay in this role, but find a way to make it more sustainable for you.

[00:38:14] You know, Jordan, I worked in consulting for four years. It was four or five days every single week at the client. Usually pretty far away from home. It was 10, 12, 14 hour days, sometimes longer. Those were brutal days and those projects they could last for months. So I know how brutal this lifestyle is, but there are definitely things you can do to make it better.

[00:38:32] For example, if you're not doing this already, you could carve out a little time at the beginning or the end of every day to do 20 minutes of exercise, just 20 minutes to start if you're not already working out. And you can make sure you're eating well. You know, walk to the market a few blocks away for lunch, instead of, I don't know, piling on to everybody's McDonald's order, just because it's easier because it's the thing to do. You could cut back on drinking. If that's something you are into. 

[00:38:53] Jordan Harbinger: No. Thanks. 

[00:38:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: Which is — it's not for you, Jordan. It's for the guy.

[00:38:57]  Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Okay. 

[00:38:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, you can, you can keep boozing it up over there. I'm not going to take you away from your White Claw, but this guy needs to know that it is super tempting when you're stuck in a town you don't know, and you're on the road and you're bored as hell. I get it why you would hit the bar and have a few beers before you go to bed. If you can skip that or keep it to once a week or something like that. If you can commit to just a few small changes, that could be a game changer for this whole situation. The hours they'll still be intense, but you'll have more energy, you'll feel better and maybe most importantly, you'll feel more in control of your life, which is one of the biggest contributors to burnout, by the way, just feeling like you're not in the driver's seat. Give that a try, do it for two months, three months, see if you feel better. And if you're still miserable, then you'll know that it really is this job and it's time to make a change, but then you'll be better equipped to make that change because you'll also be truly taking care of yourself.

[00:39:42] Jordan Harbinger: That's good advice from life coach Gabe over here. And I want to defend myself. I don't drink White Claw exclusively. Show fans send me lots of different mixtures and that's right, I drink. I consume things that strangers send me from that I know over the Internet and I put them in my body #wellness.

[00:40:00]Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh great. Okay. Equal opportunity drinker, just mixing up different forms of alcohol. 

[00:40:04] Jordan Harbinger: I don't even know what this is, but it smells like alcohol. I'm drinking. 

[00:40:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's ethanol. It works. Anyway, I'm not a life coach, bro. I'm just speaking from experience. You know, I was on the road and I was freaking miserable and exhausted and run down. And then I was like, oh, maybe I should go to the gym a few times a week. 

[00:40:17] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:40:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: And it helped. 

[00:40:18] Jordan Harbinger: I assume it did. The only thing I would add is maybe you should start looking around at other jobs anyway. It couldn't hurt. Maybe a stumble across an amazing position and you take it. Or maybe you get an offer and you go back to this tough personality gatekeeper guy, like, "Hey, this other company really wants me. I want to, of course, keep working for you. Can I switch to a new role? And can you imagine their offer?" And then he really has to keep you happy. And it doesn't matter if he has a nuclear meltdown because you've already got another job off. Also just knowing you've got your eye out for a possible change, even if you're not really gunning for a new role that might make you feel like you've got the keys to the prison, so to speak, it can take a lot of pressure off if you're just exploring other things. You'll be doing that over time and you're going, "Yeah, but I'm not going to be stuck here forever because I am looking at other things." And just that thought alone can kind of get you through the week sometimes. But whatever happens, I definitely find ways to take care of your physical and mental health, because that will always be important no matter what role you end up doing. Good luck, man. 

[00:41:20] This is The Jordan Harbinger Show and this is Feedback Friday. We'll be right back. 

[00:41:24] This episode is sponsored in part by Better Help online therapy. Are you worried that if you see a therapist, it means you're crazy, you're weak or you're a failure? Are you worried about what others might think if they find out you see a therapist? Unfortunately, the stigma of therapy causes many people to decide not to pursue counseling despite experiencing significant emotional, physical, or mental distress. And let's be clear, most people who initiate counseling, they don't have a serious mental illness. They may just have serious life challenges or they're going through difficult life cycle transitions that may be taxing their ability to cope, which may be adversely affecting their ability to function as well as they would like. It can be work-related, financial, health stuff, family, parent-child stuff, the ending of a romantic relationship, divorce. The list goes on and on. If you're going through one or more of these challenges at this time, and you're not alone. I want to help to de-stigmatize therapy. I want you to try Better Help. I think it's a great way to dip your toes in the therapy waters. It's affordable. Financial aid is available and our listeners get 10 percent off their first month of online therapy at betterhelp.com/jordan. That's better-H-E-L-P.com/jordan. 

[00:42:28] This episode is also sponsored by Pretty Litter. Everything I do for our hairless cats, Mick and Momo is rooted in love even when they're testing my patience. Love is letting Mick sleep in my lap when I really need to pee. Love is accepting that my furniture is never going to be claw proof and probably going to end up a scratching post even though I just freaking bought that couch. Love is opening up the door to let my cats in and out a million times. And love is letting Momo scratch up my new acoustic panels and my microphone foam. I got to draw the line somewhere, but it's pretty hard. Love is also keeping tabs on my cat's health, which is why I use Pretty Litter. Pretty Litter is the best litter for your cat because it changes color to help detect early signs of potential illness, including urinary tract infections and kidney issues. Obviously, cats can't tell you that something hurts. So they suffer in silence. And kidney diseases, especially common in middle-aged and older cats. And what's cool is when they wee on it, it changes color if there's something wrong. 

[00:43:18] Jen Harbinger: Love is putting your cat's health first with Pretty Litter. Do what we did and make the switch today by visiting prettylitter.com and use promo code Jordan for 20 percent off your first order. That's pretty literal.com promo code Jordan for 20 percent off. Prettylitter.com code Jordan. 

[00:43:32] Jordan Harbinger: Thanks for listening and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers Keeps us going. Who doesn't love some good products and/or services? You can always visit jordanharbinger.com/deals for all the details on everybody that helps support the show.

[00:43:46] And now for the conclusion of Feedback Friday. 

[00:43:49] Okay. Next up. 

[00:43:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabriel. I'm a 42-year-old south African interviewing for an IT position in the Netherlands. If everything works out, our family of four could very soon be starting a new life in a different country. Unfortunately, this also means that I will be leaving a well-established network of friends, confidants, colleagues, and mentors behind. I have to build a new support structure as soon as possible. How does one start and grow a new network from scratch? And is there anything that I could start doing now about four months in advance to give us a little bit of a headstart. Signed, Trying to Attach to a New Batch From Scratch Without Hitting a Rough Patch.

[00:44:26] Jordan Harbinger: Well, this is exciting. I'm sure it's a little overwhelming to think about moving across the world, but this adventure could be super exciting for all of you guys, especially for the kids. It's going to be cool. You're asking a good question. It's all about tapping into your first few communities and doing the legwork to piece together, your network very deliberately. So here are a few tips. Once you officially get the offer, I would start reaching out to your new colleagues, tell them who you are that you're moving from South Africa, that you're excited to start with the company and experience a new country. Start up some correspondence, make some friends. Then once you join the company, I would invite them to coffee or lunch, or just jump on a Zoom hang. Find the people you vibe with. Your new job will be your easiest and most built-in network when you start. So you got to start off with. 

[00:45:15] The other way to build a network from scratch is to get involved in communities around your interests. So if you're a cyclist or you play golf or you're really into wine, or you love reading, whatever it is, you can join a group for anything. That'll give you a common interest to bond with people. And if a group doesn't exist, then you can start one. In fact, I highly recommend doing this a lot in your first year. If you find a few other people at the office who loves cycling, create a Sunday morning bike ride, if you like reading and honestly, even if you don't start a book club. Book clubs are money, by the way. They pulled together a ton of different people. They force you to read a bit, socialize. It's great. 

[00:45:51] Now, you might already speak Dutch or something, resembling Dutch coming from South Africa, or you're 80 percent of the way there with Afrikaans. But if you're learning the language, then you can also make a ton of friends through your classes, maybe a form of conversation group with the people that you like. Maybe you find a Dutch person in the Netherlands who will Skype with you a couple of times a week to practice. And that person becomes another friend with their own net. If you want to get more serious, you can look for technical or accent reduction classes designed for executives where you'll have more in common with the other students.

[00:46:21] I highly recommend that by the way, for anyone who is moving to a foreign country, most people don't realize they can actually use the fact that they don't speak a language to make even more friends versus being isolated because of it. 

[00:46:34] I would also look on Facebook and see what groups already exist in your new city. A lot of these are going to be super welcoming. There's these couch surfing in groups full of internationals. That might be a younger crowd, but you can jump on there now. Start leaving comments posting that you and your family are moving there soon. Just see who responds. 

[00:46:51] As you do all of that, I would be very deliberate about investing in your network in the first year. If you meet two people who have something in common, introduce them. If you can help someone out the offer your time. Basically, follow the Six-Minute Networking playbook starting now. It's no different from networking anywhere else. But when you're trying to build a network from scratch going, the extra mile is even more important. And if you're still lollygagging on six minute networking, go to jordanharbinger.com/course, that'll take you there. It's free. You've heard me say that a million. 

[00:47:23] So yes, there's a lot you can be doing to build your network in advance. But a lot of this will happen organically once you're on the ground as well. Just don't wait until you're on the ground because you can really get a huge jumpstart by not waiting. Once you settle in, you can start a monthly dinner or a coffee thing with other foreigners in Amsterdam, maybe even other South Africans, specifically. Super fun way to stay connected to home. Make a ton of friends quickly. My only advice is just don't get stuck in the expat bubble. That can easily become a way to avoid venturing out of your comfort zone. 

[00:47:54] I will say when I lived in Germany, I had very few expat friends and they didn't live in the same town. So when we met up, we spent the weekend together and it was great. But then I went back to my German life. When I lived in Serbia, I hung out with ex-pats all the time. My Serbian is nowhere near as good as my German. And I was there for almost twice as long. 

[00:48:12] Bottom line, I think you're going to be great. Moving to another country can be intense. Maybe you'll feel like the odd man out sometimes, but it's also a huge advantage. You're interesting. You're exotic. I mean, you're South African, dude. You don't see that every day. Plus you have a cool story. People will be drawn to that, so don't be afraid to own it. You know, like, "Hey, I'm the new guy from Cape Town. I'm still figuring out how the bike lane works. Sorry for my super weird accent." If that's your calling card for a while, great. That was more Denmark than anything. 

[00:48:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: But that's more of the guy from the Netherlands who's there already, than the South  African. 

[00:48:43] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that was more gold — what is it? A gold finger from, not gold finger. 

[00:48:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: Gold member. 

[00:48:49] Jordan Harbinger: Gold member. Yes. Overall, this sounds like an amazing adventure. Best of luck with the interviews, man. I do hope you get that. 

[00:48:57] Hope you all enjoyed that. I want to thank everyone who wrote in this week and everyone who listened. Thank you for that. I love all of you. Well, 40 percent, 50 percent. It's hard to say. Go back and check out the Nicholas Christakis and Robert H. Frank episodes if you haven't yet. A link to the show notes for the episode can be found at jordanharbinger.com. Transcripts, always in the show notes. A video of this Feedback Friday will eventually be posted to our YouTube channel, which has a bunch of other content, jordanharbinger.com/youtube. We also have a clips channel. You can find clips that are not available of the show anywhere else. Those are on YouTube at jordanharbinger.com/clips. It's a brand new channel, please, even if you're not much of a consumer of YouTube content, please go to jordanharbinger.com/clips and subscribe there. The first thousand subs are always the hardest. That's what they tell me. So we're trying to get there. I'm at @JordanHarbinger on both Twitter and Instagram, or just hit me on LinkedIn. You can find Gabe on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi or on Instagram at @GabrielMizrahi. 

[00:49:52] This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My amazing team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, Josh Ballard, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions, those are our own. I'm a lawyer, but not your lawyer. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember ,we rise by lifting others, share the show with those you love. And if you found this episode useful, please share it with somebody else who can use the advice that we gave here today. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show, so you can live what you listen, and leave everything and everyone better than you found them. 

[00:50:28] Here's a preview of my conversation with Danny Trejo, an ex-con turned icon featured in over 350 films and TV shows. You've seen them everywhere in Machete, Breaking Bad, Desperado and much, much more. He's never been through acting school, which doesn't matter when you're a legend/icon. Before becoming such a prolific star. Danny Trejo was a drug addicted criminal hooked on heroin at age 12 who spent more than a decade in and out of prison. Here's a quick preview. 

[00:50:58] Danny Trejo: Once you start doing robberies and you're using heroin, the robberies become addictive. You don't know whether you're doing robberies to support your drug habit or doing drugs to support your robbery habit. 

[00:51:12] Jordan Harbinger: I read you robbed a store with a hand grenade. 

[00:51:14] Danny Trejo: This was later on. This was like, we did a robbery. We winded up  with this hand grenade. So I tried it and it was fairly simple. You know, when you hold a hand grenade and you've got your hand on the pin and you ask somebody for some money, they think twice. 

[00:51:27] In prison, there's only two kinds of people in prison. There's predators and their prey. That's it. And you got to decide every damn morning, what are you going to be? And I know a lot of people that decide, "I'm prey. I don't care because I'm tired." I know a lot of people that took an elevator off the fifth year. There's no elevator. I knew a lot of people that cut their wrists. I've seen guys with all the muscles in the world, get stabbed by a short Mexican in tennis shoes with a big knife in a fight. "I don't want to fight you." That's prison. 

[00:52:00] Prison has a taste. Put one of those fake pennies, the lead ones in your mouth and keep it there. That's the taste of pressure. That's the taste of anxiety. That's the taste of fear. That's the taste of everything. You feel it. That's what you walk around with. And when you finally lose that taste, you decide whether you're going to be predator prey. That's the only way you can lose. 

[00:52:27] Jordan Harbinger: For more, including how Danny Trejo walked onto a Hollywood movie set as a drug counselor and left as a bonafide actor and how Danny Trejo has managed sobriety for over 50 years and continues to help others maintain theirs, check out episode 398.

[00:52:42] Male Narrator: Hey movie lovers. Who needs a theater when you have Pluto TV? Grab your popcorn and your streaming device because free movies are here. Pluto TV is your home for movies. Great movies are playing any time in over 20 exclusive movie channels of action, horror, rom-coms, and more. Watch hits like Saving Private Ryan, Pretty in Pink, and Charlie's Angels all for free. No signups, no fees, no contracts — ever. Download the free Pluto TV app on any device.