1207: Hoping Her 1%er ‘Old Man’ Is a Flash in the Pan | Feedback Friday

1207: Hoping Her 1%er 'Old Man' Is a Flash in the Pan | Feedback Friday

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Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the reflective paint helping me guide the way on this protected bike path of life's conundrums, Gabriel Mizrahi. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. And during the week we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from spies to CEOs, rocket scientists, generals, investigative journalists and hostage negotiators. This week we had journalist, author and friend of mine, Taylor Lorenz, on Kid Influencers.

You know, these six year olds that amass a million followers, and then the mothers, the dance moms that have the little girls and the weird kind of creepy fan base with their Jim Leotard stuff. We talked about all that. It gets icky fast, but it's a really interesting topic. Most of us don't really know what goes on on the underbelly of this stuff.

On Fridays though, we share stories, take listener letters, [00:01:00] offer advice, play obnoxious sound bites, and occasionally meet up in various European cities with terrible soundproofing. Apparently our last two air quote studios have been a little chaotic. Gabe. It was really fun to hang out in Porto. Man, that was, that was a surreal, good time, wasn't it?

Cool place.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Small town vibes, but very cool place.

Jordan Harbinger: I liked it. Look, there's a river going through and it's a very scenic, but I liked Lisbon more. There's more going on. I know what you mean.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I responded a lot more to Porto. It's way more welcoming I find, but after a month you're kind of like, hmm, I get it.

Nice life. Very sweet place to settle down. But there's only so much, so much to do.

Jordan Harbinger: I feel like if you're Portuguese and you live in New York and you make your money and you retire, you could retire to a place like Porto, right? And you live there and you're like, yeah, I'm just gonna read on my balcony every day and drink coffee and smoke, which is apparently like the two national pastimes of Portugal.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Isn't that wild? When I got there and I saw everyone smoking, I was like, oh, okay. Still going. It's still 1977 there. Okay. It is.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I took a little wine tour, which is funny 'cause I don't drink, [00:02:00] as you all know. I barely drink wine. But we went on a wine tour and the guide was like, our hobbies in Portugal are the three Cs.

Can anyone guess what these are? And I was like, coffee, cigarettes. Uh, and he's like, yes. Coffee, cigarettes. And complaining like, oh yeah,

Gabriel Mizrahi: I thought that was going in a very different direction. Okay, got it. No

Jordan Harbinger: complaining. Um, get your mind outta the gutter. And now you're in Berlin. Speaking of gutters, I'm

Gabriel Mizrahi: in Berlin.

Yeah. Loving it here so far I have to say.

Jordan Harbinger: Germany's awesome man. Berlin, by the way. Not really Germany. Just gonna throw that out there. I've heard this look. It's probably like a Cold War reky thing where it was already divided up into little pieces that were like. French, British, American, Russian slash Soviet, and then the west and east and all that stuff.

Anyways, there's many different Germanys of course, but Germany has a special place in my heart, as many of you know, 'cause I spent such a long time there in high school and I always felt a connection to the country. I, I just vibe hard with the Germans.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Is it your Austro-Hungarian heritage or is it that Nazi youth haircut you're rocking [00:03:00] at the moment.

Yeah,

Jordan Harbinger: you know, I'm gonna, I think that might be it. Yeah, I'm gonna go with both, uh, the general vibe, I guess. Also they never expect me to speak German with an East German accent. Right. So that's always a fun surprise. 'cause they'll be like, oh, in Germany we call this this and I'll, and I'll say something like straight out of the hood of Halah where I went to school and people are like, do you have a Leipzig accent?

What the hell? And I'm like, yeah. A very fluent Leipzig accent and yeah, but the haircut helps. I think the haircut helps.

Gabriel Mizrahi: By the way, the only thing even vaguely Nazi about Jordan is his haircut. I just love to tease him about it.

Jordan Harbinger: I like the shaved sides. It's low maintenance plus all my grays on the side.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So when you cut it off, it looks edgy. I just wanna clarify for any new listeners who are like, is this fairly gentle advice show hosted by a fascist? Yes, it is. Didn't realize that. Oh, sorry. No, definitely. That is not what we talked about Jordan.

Jordan Harbinger: Dang it. Yeah. No, I'm not a, not much of a fan of fascism, generally speaking, is evidenced by our extensive show library of anti-fascist.

Well, you can't even say anti-fascist because now people think you're part of Antifa [00:04:00] Gestures. Vaguely at show library gestures. Gestures with right arm and open palm towards show library. I gotta say though, the fascist, they did nail the aesthetic.

Gabriel Mizrahi: There's a reason Kim Jong-un adopted that haircut. Yeah.

You know,

Jordan Harbinger: Berlin is such a trip manage. It's a mashup of so many different cultures influences. It's really spread out, so you kind of gotta know what you're doing, but there's no place like it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I have not felt this at home in a city from the get go in a long time. It was crazy how quickly I dropped in here.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, man, you gotta love when that happens. Did you do the yoga thing? Do you go

Gabriel Mizrahi: to class the first

Jordan Harbinger: day?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Of course. Of course. Yeah, of course I did. And dude, the studio I went to was so awesome, super cool vibe. Everyone was so welcoming. I made a couple friends just on the first day. Did some chanting, which I know you'd love.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, of course you did. Let me guess. They, they kicked off with a, what is it? Harmonium?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. You know about this. Mm. Obviously it's giva mti, right. So they love their chanting, the beginning and the end. So yeah. Now I have my studio, I have my bicycle, I have my harmonium venue. Yeah. And I have a dope apartment that I just saw yesterday.

So I am in. [00:05:00] But it was funny. So you know that I love a good Google calendar invite, right? You do love a good calendar invite. Putting a plan on the calendar, inviting the person long in advance. It's one of your love languages. Can we put it that way? Can we phrase it that way? Acts of calendaring. Yeah. Yes, exactly.

So I was making plans with some people here separately, like these are separate groups of people and they kept sending me calendar invites and I loved it. I was like, is this why I feel so at home here? Because you guys have this love of order and basic administration. Is this, am I secretly German

Jordan Harbinger: Can con confirm very German.

Yeah. The Germans can be very earnest and literal, especially about facts and plans. That quality can cut both ways, of course, but I, I do prefer it. I remember when I lived in Germany and then after that I lived in Mexico for a while and I was, people were like, we're going to the movies. And I was like, what time?

And they're like, afternoon. And I was like, that's a long window. When should I be there?

Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't know. Just show up when you feel like it and hopefully we'll be there.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh my gosh. And I would go, like, I'd wait the whole day and I'd be like, when are we going to the movies? And like, it would be 8:00 PM and they'd go, they'd call and I'd be like, Hey, what's up guys?

And they'd be like, yeah, we're not going [00:06:00] today. You know, just, just a long day. I'm like, long day. Nobody did anything. And they're like, yeah, we're not going. And I'm like, oh. And that would just happen over and over and over. And it took me a while to realize that it wasn't just me. I was like, these people don't like me.

These are not my friends. They're ditching me. And then I would talk to other people and they'd be like, yeah, we just never did anything. Nobody did anything.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That sounds more Latin American. Me. That is not how people operate here. No,

Jordan Harbinger: it drove me crazy. You can either adapt to the culture or you can be like, I can't stand this.

And I, I fell into the, I can't stand this camp with the never showing up, never doing anything. Fair enough. Anyway. Yeah. Love the organization of the Germans. Uh, it does again, cuts both ways. Historical examples abound.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. But when it comes to making plans, it's amazing. There's nothing like knowing that you're grabbing matcha latte and hitting the Holocaust memorial with somebody dark 10 days from now.

Dark real example for my life.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. It gestures vaguely with the right arm towards the maul latte discipline. When you get caught in an a FD rally and you attend your first sex club, then we're gonna hear about that too, I hope. 'cause uh, [00:07:00] that's the, your Phil Cuman in Berlin. That's right. In a

Gabriel Mizrahi: couple senses of the term, apparently.

Yeah. I'm, uh, I'm gross. Um, those calendar invites are gonna be lit. Yep. Appreciate it

Jordan Harbinger: all. We got fun ones. We got doozies. You have doozies.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Gabe,

Jordan Harbinger: what's

Gabriel Mizrahi: the first thing out of the mailbag? Dear Jordan and Gabe, my 48-year-old sister is a good person and my best friend, but she has a history of bad relationships.

Her ex-husband is a drug addict who has never held a job. She also once dated her boss, who was supposed to be a millionaire, but somehow managed to ruin her credit. This is a recurring pattern and it's why I'm so concerned about her current boyfriend, Jim. Jim is part of a motorcycle club called The Dirty Ones.

She told me his chapter is based in Whoppings Falls, New York, and it's a 1% club where Jim has held formal positions like president and treasure.

Jordan Harbinger: Ah, okay. So for anyone who doesn't know what a 1% club is, one percenter club back in the sixties, I believe the former [00:08:00] president of the American Motorcyclist Association, he supposedly made some comment that was like 99% of motorcyclists are law abiding citizens.

So some outlaw motorcycle clubs adopted the 1% label like we're the 1%. That's not law abiding citizens in these clubs. They operate outside of the mainstream. They of course have a reputation for, you know, like we do our own thing. We don't listen to the law. Sometimes, not always, but sometimes they're involved in criminal activity.

Right. It's not

Gabriel Mizrahi: what I first thought, which is that they're like private equity guys who just love Harley Davidsons. No, quite no different. 1%.

Jordan Harbinger: It's not a bunch of MIT Romneys enjoying some time on the track. That's a different one. Percenter.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, very. I didn't think much of it until she mentioned that Jim isn't allowed to leave the club.

Okay. I mean, he is the president or was This led me to do some research and what I found was very disturbing. In September, 2024, state troopers were violently attacked by a biker gang in the same town where Jim's club is based in 20 24 11 members of their Las Vegas chapter were indicted on racketeering and [00:09:00] attempted murder charges.

And in 2012, a different chapter of the gang was federally charged with trafficking high caliber weapons, including AK 40 sevens. A few recent events have really sparked my concern. My sister started paying for everything, arthritis, cream, underwear, supplies for his dog, even a bathing suit. Within the first month of her and Jim dating, he works as a day laborer and still lives with his parents, so he doesn't have many bills yet.

He's never even taken her out to dinner when she drives the hour and a half to see him each week, Jim's mom cooks for them, they eat her leftover takeout, or my sister needs to provide the meal.

Speaker 3: Hey mom, the meatloaf, we want it now. The meatloaf.

Jordan Harbinger: What is she doing? I never know what she's doing. Back there.

I mean, of course. Right. Perfect. I love this. Jim is 51 or whatever. Yeah. Lives with mom and dad needs his girlfriend to buy his fruit of the looms. 'cause God knows what happened to the [00:10:00] last bearer, but he's a badass on the streets. So this guy's not even good at crime. He's just a total loser. You don't know that.

I mean, maybe his mom's meatloaf is just that good. No, you're right,

Gabriel Mizrahi: you're right. This guy probably lives with mommy and daddy for the menu. Yeah. I mean, you don't wanna have to drive 10 minutes on your Harley to get that food. You just, you just wanna walk up the stairs from the basement.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. You know, you watch a show like Sons of Anarchy and it's like, oh, these guys like, they have addicted, they got this complex operation, they're laundering money, they're working with Dru, the Chinese, the drug cartels.

This guy's like, could you drive 90 minutes and bring over some Carl's Jr. On your way? Mom's gone. She's at her, she's in her knitting club tonight. So I don't have any food. Come on man. This dude's got it all figured out. Mom cooks and when he and his dog wants something different, his girlfriend brings over Arby's

Gabriel Mizrahi: and Purina.

That's right. And when his rheumatoid arthritis flares up, she is apparently also his very own personal Walgreens. So that's right. He's set. This woman must really

Jordan Harbinger: love motorcycles 'cause

Gabriel Mizrahi: what

Jordan Harbinger: the heck is she

Gabriel Mizrahi: doing with this guy? [00:11:00] Motorcycles and repetition compulsion, apparently. So he goes on around the 4th of July, my sister was brought to a series of parties to meet the club this week she called me and told me that a girl she met at one of these parties, shot herself, oh my God.

In one of the homes that my sister was at, Jim told my sister that the girl who shot herself showed up to his friend's home and was not herself. He claims she was rambling incoherently about the CIA stalking her before she took her own life. Ooh, that is, that's dark. That's sad. Also, she met this guy online and on their second date thought it would be a good idea to drive around our town and show him where my parents live.

My parents are well off and own a self storage business, which my sister and I started taking over last year. The plan is for us to be partners once my parents fully retire. Jordan, I love that this guy is in his fifties. He's still living at home, holes in his pains or whatever. Yep. And he's like, you know what I should do?

I should get on Tinder.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. That's the

Gabriel Mizrahi: move.

Jordan Harbinger: Not like maybe I should get my life in order so I can afford treats for my dog. What I need is [00:12:00] companionship. Companionship.

Gabriel Mizrahi: What

Jordan Harbinger: I need is free

Gabriel Mizrahi: Uber Eats with cuddling privileges. Yeah. That's what I need

Jordan Harbinger: man. I'm just trying to imagine what this dude's dating profile was like.

I'm picturing lots of photos on his bike with one of those, like old guy on Facebook selfies taken from below with the triple chin. I'm just trying to imagine his prompts. Like um,

Gabriel Mizrahi: A random fact I love is 99% of motorcyclists or lo abiding citizens. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Wink emoji. Wink emoji. Water gun emoji. Yeah, exactly.

Meatloaf emoji. Does that

Gabriel Mizrahi: exist? Meatloaf emoji? Does that exist? Exactly. Something that's non-negotiable for me is you don't mind sleeping with a fan 'cause it gets hot in mom's basement. That is a fact.

Jordan Harbinger: Maybe the voice prompt is just an A TF agent reading him as Miranda Rights. So the dating profile sounds pretty fire.

I'm starting to see why sis swiped right on this guy. What

Gabriel Mizrahi: a

Jordan Harbinger: catch.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Then today my sister told me that she has to go to a larger club meeting in Yonkers next weekend, and she has to stay overnight. Oh boy. I'm concerned because my sister isn't acting like her usual self. I'm watching my sister Wednesday to Friday next week because [00:13:00] she has a business trip.

My niece has major attachment issues. She even still sleeps in the bed with my sister and struggles when her mother is away. So it's very bizarre that my sister would spend an unnecessary overnight away from her right after a business trip. When my sister told me about this meeting, I pushed back about the club.

I brought up that these people could be dangerous and that she has two children to think about. She immediately got defensive. Is a 1% motorcycle club inherently dangerous for someone on the periphery, like a girlfriend? It is my sister potentially in a risky situation, or am I letting my imagination run wild?

Am I being paranoid or is our family a prime target for a shakedown? Is there anything I should do to protect myself or the rest of my family? Signed, clearing the fog and preparing a monologue. Because my sister is high on the hog.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Nice double entendre there. So, man, this is such a wild one and obviously concerning on a few levels.

I do feel really bad for your sister that she's drawn to guys like this. Obviously she [00:14:00] has difficult patterns, and that's really tough. I feel especially bad for you and it's gotta be hard to watch your own sister go down this path with yet another shady loser guy, knowing that it might also affect you and of course the niece and she won't really engage with you about it.

That is, is just super stressful. And again, the daughter, man, the attachment stuff you mentioned, it really paints a picture. This poor girl probably has her own trauma and anxiety. It sounds like that started before this new guy entered the picture. It's just all very sad. We wanted to talk to an expert about all this.

So we reached out to Scott Payne, former FBI, agent and guest on the show. That was episode 1132. Scott infiltrated some of America's worst, most violent hate groups, including a one percenter biker gang called The Outlaws, and he knows their playbooks very well. The dirty ones. Scott didn't know about them right away, but he looked into them briefly and said that they look like a fairly decent, legit one percenter club that has been around for a long time.

And by decent and legit, we don't mean upstanding citizens, he means [00:15:00] like they're actually an established club that's possibly involved with organized crime. Uh, based on what you shared, he didn't see anything overtly concerning though. He said What you usually see with these clubs is biker on biker violence or stuff like the racketeering that the other chapter got busted for, which is a bit vague.

So that's some good news. But Scott also said, yes, this is potentially risky for somebody on the periphery. Scott doesn't believe actually that all one percenter bikers are bad people. If someone's going around saying they're a one percenter, that doesn't mean that they are committing big federal violations.

They could be doing toy runs, they could be doing good things too. But he said that criminal activity, it kind of goes with the territory. He said, oftentimes there's gonna be some dope. There's gonna be other illegal stuff going on around them. And so, yeah, there is a potential that your sister could get wrapped up in some kind of conspiracy over drugs or implicated in something that she might not even fully understand or have access to.

Also, this is just me speculating a little bit. I don't mean to give you a nightmare fuel here, but imagine your sister's [00:16:00] just hanging out, drinking a beer with these one percenters and a rival club rolls up and a fight breaks out and it gets violent. Or she's kicking it with her boyfriend and the police do a raid and she gets swept up and then she gets questioned and detained by the police and you know, she has kids or she witnesses something criminal and now the gang has leverage with her or is concerned she's gonna say something or the police wanna talk to her.

I mean this, there's hanging out with criminals is generally never a good idea.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Or maybe the impact is even kind of more innocent, but still damaging. Like what if she wants to rent a new apartment and the landlord sees Jim pick her up on his bike or sees her Instagram photos, she's posing with the Sons of Anarchy and they're like, yeah, no, I don't.

I don't want any part of this.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, no kidding there. So there is some risk, but how big that risk is? It's impossible to say for sure. Now about your family's business being a target of a shakedown by the club. Scott actually was not too worried about that. His concern, and I share this concern, is that this dude is broke.

He's a loser. Obviously he's still living with his parents and he seems to have no problem mooching off of your sister. We all know how that goes. [00:17:00] People like that, they'll steal from you. They'll do whatever they have to. I would not put it past this guy to start taking more money from your sister, maybe encouraging her to funnel money from the business to him for something.

I think that's a more likely scenario, especially if he or they are using drugs. But Scott said he just doesn't see the club going after your parents, so that's also some good news. Now, this also depends on how serious your sister is with this guy, how integrated she is with the group. Scott had a great tip there.

Look to see if she's got any kind of vest that says Property of Jim or whatever his name is in the club. If she does that would mean she's what they call an old lady, not what they call a sheep. Sheep. Those are the girls that maybe they're just on drugs. They're being passed around the club, which that woman who committed suicide, which is again super sad, she might have been a sheep.

It's hard to say. Which is better. I mean, Scott said if you're a sheep, nobody in the club is taking you as their property, your club property. You're probably hooked on drugs. Anybody can sleep with you, do whatever they want to you, which is, you know, quite a glimpse into the politics of these clubs. [00:18:00] If you're an old lady, that means you're the property of a particular patch member, which means you're higher up in the status.

Nobody else is gonna mess with you. It doesn't mean you're gonna get treated well by the guy whose property you are, but so if your sister ever gets old lady status, that would potentially be more concerning in a certain way. And I do wonder if that's why she has to go do whatever Jim tells her to do, like attend these events or if that's where this is heading.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But that's something you can try to figure out. So yeah, hard to say whether this relationship is a total disaster. It clearly isn't great even without the 1% or stuff. So I think you have to do everything you can to help your sister see why staying involved with this guy is not a great idea. I know you tried to talk to her about the club meeting.

I know she got defensive, but it sounds like that was one conversation, possibly in a heated moment. I would try again and maybe you need to gather the family or get some of her friends involved. Maybe make this a kind of intervention so that it's harder for her to blow you guys off. And the message could be, sis, we love you.

We want you to be happy. We understand that this guy is interesting to you. We get it to a certain point. [00:19:00] But we see you getting involved in a clearly dangerous community. I don't know how much you know, but here's what we learned, and a lot of them are committing crimes. They're getting arrested. We also see you prioritizing your boyfriend and his group over your own daughter, your career us.

You're not acting like yourself. We're genuinely worried, and also we're confused. Can you help us understand why you are choosing this guy? Can you tell us how you're thinking about the risk here? I mean, you're a smart cookie. Like we know you're looking at the same facts as us, so help us make this make sense.

And see what she says. If she gets defensive and pulls away, try to keep her in the conversation. Resist the urge to shame her or judge her, although unfortunately there is plenty to judge in this situation. But hit pause on that and make it safe for her to keep talking to you guys.

Jordan Harbinger: There's a little of the cult mentality to this sister, right?

She seems to be enthralled of this guy. She's probably enamored with this group. I'm guessing it's thrilling, I'm guessing it gives her a sense of belonging and, and you guys are gonna have to kind of deprogram her a little bit from the sound of it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And if she tries to wiggle out of it, [00:20:00] then you might wanna try being more direct.

I mean, you might have to say, SIS, you have a massive blind spot. You're ditching your daughter to hang out with this guy. You're exposing our family and our business to this community that is shady. Does that any of that sound responsible? Maybe that's what she needs to hear to snap out of it.

Jordan Harbinger: And if she really won't engage with you at all.

You might have to consider a stronger stance. Maybe say, SIS, it breaks my heart to do this, but I don't feel safe around you right now. I can't see you in person while you're involved with this guy. Maybe even the threat of that kind of thing would wake her up. I don't know. I also wonder, this gets a little dicey, but I wonder if you could get your niece involved too.

Look, if she's like eight years old, obviously don't do that, but I don't know if she's 15 or 16. Still young, still not something she should have to be a part of, but maybe old enough to say, mom, I don't like your boyfriend. I'm scared when you leave me alone for days at a time, I want you to stop. I have to imagine that hearing your own child say that would give her pause.

As for protecting your family. Scott's advice there was stay aware and be vigilant. If something bad ever happens, lock the door. Call 9 1 1. Situational awareness. Keep your head on a swivel. The usual law [00:21:00] enforcement stuff, but he didn't seem overly concerned that your family itself was in danger. Still though, I would take extra precautions with the business.

Two factor authentication on your online accounts, permissions for payments and transfers. Change your password regularly. Keep a close eye on your business records. You don't wanna notice that 60 grand is missing nine months from now, and then have to go back and do the forensics to try to get it back.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Honestly, if she continues dating this guy, and if things get worse, if she gets pulled deeper into the club and you gather more information that's concerning you and your parents might want to consider a succession plan that doesn't include her, at least in a position of leadership, at least as long as she's involved with this guy.

I know that's gonna cause tension, but it might be worth discussing. Jordan, you touched on something a moment ago that we kind of glossed over, and I really hate to give her more reasons to be anxious, but I am a little bit concerned that her sister might be on drugs for two reasons. Yeah. First of all, she has a history of this.

Her ex-husband was a drug addict. We don't know if she was using with him, but she was certainly around it. Second, she said that her [00:22:00] sister is not acting like her usual self.

Jordan Harbinger: That phrase is always a red flag for me. I mean, she said it twice in the letter. The first time was when the woman shot herself in the home and the second time was about her own sister.

So

Gabriel Mizrahi: yikes. Extreme behavior changes, personality shifts, sacrificing relationships. These are all things to pay close attention to.

Jordan Harbinger: Good point. Yeah, that would explain a lot. I don't know how you can find out if she's using, but this might have to be part of the intervention chat too. I hope your sister can let you in and see her situation clearly, make better choices and I hope it's still early enough days that she can get out without any blowback, but that's why you guys have to act sooner rather than later.

Things might get tense with your sister for a little while. She might not appreciate her family turning on her for dating this dude, but even if he's not a true criminal and it sounds like he might be at least adjacent to that, if not doing something himself, there are plenty of reasons to be concerned about this guy.

Just the holes in the underwear alone. So don't be afraid to lean into the conflict and discomfort here. Just make sure you keep the door Aja so [00:23:00] she can safely come to you when she's ready to leave, man. Sending you and your family a big hug and wishing you all the best. Now we're gonna traffic and some deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show.

We'll be right back.

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At Jordan harbinger.com/deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now back to Feedback Friday.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay, what's next? Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm 50, and my relationship with my stepdaughter, who's now 24, has [00:26:00] deteriorated significantly. A little while back, she returned home after a physical altercation with her boyfriend, a relationship we had long been concerned about.

From the outset, she was frequently disrespectful to us, to her younger brothers, and to her home. Her room became unmanageable. What some might dismiss as messy was closer to hoarding clothing, blankets, pillows, stuffed animals, trash, empty wine bottles, and signs of neglect like cat vomit. She regularly lied about her whereabouts, stayed out all night and disregarded the clear agreement we had that living at home was contingent upon saving money and making a plan to move forward.

More troubling was her refusal to engage, honestly. Attempts to talk about how she was doing or what her plans were. Were met with defensiveness, anger, or silence. She deflected responsibility and resisted accountability at every turn. This pattern isn't new. She has long struggled with independence, exhibited codependent behavior with her birth mother, and possibly [00:27:00] engaged in substance abuse.

Jordan Harbinger: I was about to say, is this girl on drugs? 'cause that would explain a lot of this. I mean, she's clearly drinking, so there's that. It's quite sad. Imagine having a child like this living in your house that's very upsetting,

Gabriel Mizrahi: very

Jordan Harbinger: difficult.

Gabriel Mizrahi: She seems drawn to instability, thrives on drama, and can be dishonest and secretive.

While she held a job, she loved working as a hostess at a high-end restaurant. Her income didn't support her lifestyle, and she refused to engage in conversations about education, career development, or basic financial planning. Our last meaningful interaction was an attempt to have an honest conversation after she was, again, not truthful about where she had been a few months ago at 24.

We don't expect her to share every detail of her whereabouts, but open communication feels pretty basic. The dishonesty has made it difficult to feel we can trust her. Which has contributed to a tense and stressful atmosphere in our home. The conversation resulted in her packing up and moving out in the middle of the night.

She left her room in chaos and ignored our messages about retrieving [00:28:00] her belongings. We were ghosted for months. We haven't had meaningful contact since. Eventually, we learned from her birth mother that she had moved to Florida back in with the same boyfriend who had assaulted her, the very reason she returned home in the first place.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh man, this poor girl, tough cycle.

Gabriel Mizrahi: After her final few attempts to reach out without any reply, we made the painful decision to clear out her room and donate most of what was left, mainly clothing and miscellaneous items to goodwill. Ironically, this was the one thing she responded to after the donations were already made.

She was angry and told me this was exactly why she quote, unquote, doesn't talk to me. I responded as gently and honestly as I could. I explained the situation from my perspective and told her that I still genuinely want to have a healthy, positive relationship. A meaningful connection requires effort from both sides.

I shared that we have real issues to work through, and that doing so means having an open conversation where we both listen with the intention to understand

Jordan Harbinger: solid physician nicely put in, well done. And I [00:29:00] assume she went, oh, you know what? You're right. And then she changed her ways immediately.

Gabriel Mizrahi: She hasn't replied since.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Okay. So she doesn't actually want any of that. She just wants to be mad at you.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I wanna acknowledge that my husband and I have not always handled things perfectly. There are moments I deeply wish I could go back and do differently. I became a stepmom at 26, and I know that I was still very immature and had no idea what I was doing when my husband divorced, his ex-wife, our daughter was just three years old, and the custody battle that followed was painful and protracted.

We faced ongoing attempts by her birth mother and maternal family to manipulate and alienate her from us. At one point, her mother moved her out of state without permission, forcing my husband to drive to California and obtain an emergency court order for her daughter's return. Wow. A court appointed advocate diagnosed her birth mother as a sociopath, and her manipulative, dishonest behavior made co-parenting incredibly difficult.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Yeah. Holy moly. The things this girl has been through. No wonder, imagine your [00:30:00] mother's a diagnosed sociopath and just takes you away from your other parent, and then you get repoed essentially by the police. I mean, that's Wow. Brutal. Yikes.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Despite all of this, we followed the court ordered visitation and tried our best to create a supportive values-based environment.

But our efforts to teach accountability, integrity, discipline, and self-reliance were cast as controlling or unkind. Her mother consistently validated her every emotion and often stepped in to shield her from any consequences, whether she was shoplifting, lying, skipping school, having friendships fall apart due to bullying and gossiping and failing classes.

I can't help but feel that after all these years, her birth mother has finally succeeded in alienating our daughter from us completely. On the other hand, I'm concerned that she has some real mental health issues that may contribute to all of these behaviors. It's an incredibly painful realization, and I'm left with a sense of loss and uncertainty.

I don't want to give up on her. I also don't know how to reach someone who won't even let me [00:31:00] in, should I keep trying to reach out periodically? How do we approach a young adult who refuses to communicate and take responsibility? Is there any hope of rebuilding a relationship with her or does that depend entirely on her readiness?

How do we manage our concern for her wellbeing without enabling her or being pulled into more chaos? And how do we set healthy boundaries if she ever wants to return in the future? Signed looking to stay safe from this nonstop maelstrom.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh boy. Another tough story, Gabe. Man, like I said, I'm so sorry that your daughter had this childhood, that she's gone down this path.

It's deeply sad. It's super stressful for you guys. I don't know if she has psychiatric issues, trauma, substance abuse struggles. It kind of sounds like all three, but this is a very challenging child to have, and my heart really does go out to you guys. I gotta say the fact that you're saying, look, I could have done things better.

I'm not perfect. That really tells me that you're a healthy person, that you're approaching all of this in a helpful spirit, and I feel confident saying that you are not the obstacle to fixing things at this [00:32:00] point. Your stepdaughter is, but then everything you've shared about her life, it just sounds incredibly traumatic, and my heart breaks for a kid who had this mother and this childhood, the deck was stacked against her in so many ways.

That just, it sucks. There's so much we could talk about here, but just to be very direct. I think you've gone above and beyond for your stepdaughter in so many ways, and it's time to find a new way with her. Is there hope of rebuilding a relationship? Sure. Or rather, there's the potential. I don't get the sense that she's equipped or ready to do that right now, so I would keep your expectations low, but these transformations are always possible.

But until she comes to you in good faith and goes, okay, we've had our issues. I'm ready to talk about them. Not to rage at you or blame you or project a bunch of stuff and then move out in a huff at 2:00 AM but really to work on things, I, until that happens, I just don't see you making any progress here.

You should keep the door open. Of course, you can check in every now and again and say, I hope you're doing all right and when you're ready to talk about things, we're still here for that. [00:33:00] You don't need to cut her off completely unless she's actively and ongoingly harming you guys. But yes, absolutely.

This depends entirely on her readiness now, in my opinion.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, absolutely. I agree. Your stepdaughter sounds like she's in a lot of pain, a lot of confusion. She's in this abusive relationship. Sounds like she's an addict to some degree. She probably has some legitimate reasons to be angry. I imagine mostly at her mom, maybe at her dad, just all the stuff that was going on back then.

I'm not, you know, we don't know all the details and hey, maybe even in some ways with you fairly or unfairly, although I think that probably feels to your stepdaughter more like a generalized anger at the world. And if you guys ever talk things out, I know you would make plenty of room for that, but she's now at an age where she, yeah, she needs to take responsibility for the problems in her life.

If she's not happy with the relationships she has with you, she can come to you and say, here are the things that really upset me. Here are the things that don't sit right with me. This is hard, but let's work on this. But she needs to seek out support. She needs to come to you in a [00:34:00] spirit of some openness, some respect, and an interest, not in this kind of chaotic fighting.

But in productive conflict.

Jordan Harbinger: Agree. Although I will say at 24, she's an adult. She needs to do that. Yeah. But come 24, you're still pretty young.

Gabriel Mizrahi: True.

Jordan Harbinger: Like I was a, probably a kind of a cy little turd at 24 myself.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Fair.

Jordan Harbinger: She might not have the maturity or life experience to do this yet. It might take a while longer, but you guys hanging back.

It might create some room for that in time. I wouldn't hold my breath for it to happen soon, but eventually she should maybe grow out of this.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Jordan, you remember that letter we took last week from the guy whose brother was super depressed and living with a mom and talking to weird people online, and he refused to see a therapist or talk to anybody in the family about it.

And he was like, how do I save my brother? How do I protect my mom? You remember that?

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. That was the one whose therapist reported him to the police, and we were like, whoa, what's that all about?

Gabriel Mizrahi: So when we talked to Dr. Margolis about that letter, she brought up this idea that working so hard to save someone when they can't or don't want to be helped is often a way to avoid our own [00:35:00] grief, right?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. That was the grief of quote unquote giving up, right?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. So I think our friend here would also have to face some difficult stuff. If she and her husband finally said, look, enough is enough. When you're ready to talk, we're here. But until then, we're not gonna keep fighting to help you. I think she's already in this process.

They've slowly been coming to terms with that reality. Donating her stuff when she ghosted them was a big step in that direction, and I think it was the right one. It's also interesting. It's a very symbolic act, you know, like cleaning out an old room, removing all the miscellaneous items. But there are probably many stages of that separation.

And what she's finding is that it's very painful, right? It's painful if she stays connected to her stepdaughter, and it's painful if she lets her go. But that first pain, despite how difficult everything has been, probably feels more doable because it's familiar. Because it's familiar, because it preserves her sense of hope.

And to Dr. Margolis point also because it staves off so many awful feelings that come with letting a daughter like this spiral and continue to make poor choices.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, well, [00:36:00] a lot of sadness I would imagine. A

Gabriel Mizrahi: ton of sadness, a lot of anxiety. Like she said, she feels so much uncertainty,

Jordan Harbinger: which might be the hardest part.

I'm sure there's some of her own anger in the mix too.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Also a sense of defeat. Like we lost to her. Sociopathic. Codependent mom, we lost to this awful abusive boyfriend we lost possibly to addiction, at least for the moment.

Jordan Harbinger: She also just misses her. The pure feeling of loss, like she mentioned.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Totally. And then I imagine that there's a lot of guilt.

You know, this is a whole ocean of very painful feelings to live with. So when she says, should I keep trying to reach out, there's a part of that that is an expression of her genuine love and concern for her stepdaughter. And there's probably a part of that that is avoiding having to sit with all of those difficult feelings we just talked about,

Jordan Harbinger: for sure.

But man, let's just remember the facts here. I don't mean to minimize how hard this is, but I find myself wanting to say, you've done so much. You've given this girl a home. You've rescued her from her mom. You've invited her to repair things. You do not have to feel guilty about drawing a line here, and

Gabriel Mizrahi: yet, [00:37:00]

Jordan Harbinger: I know they're her parents.

They'll probably always feel responsible to some degree, but still, how many times do you have this thrown in your face before you go, okay, message received. You're on your own. When you're ready to talk, like a normal person, we'll be here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I would strongly encourage you and your husband to check out some Al-Anon meetings or some Nar-Anon meetings.

We've talked about this before. I won't give you the whole spiel. It's a support group for family and friends of addicts. The bind that you're in is the bind that most loved ones of addicts are in. You know, do I continue helping or do I pull back? Am I supporting this person or am I enabling? Am I really helping them or am I getting dragged into yet more chaos?

It is really tough. This program offers a lot of things, but one of them is a toolkit for managing the relationship with an addict, and I would say not just an addict, but kind of anyone who creates this codependent, chaotic, dynamic. A lot of the conversations in this group deal in some way with this process of grief and also drawing boundaries and taking care of your side of the street and all of that.

So I would check it out. Even [00:38:00] if you go to a handful of meetings, I think it could be extremely helpful.

Jordan Harbinger: Totally agree. These meetings will help you set those boundaries if your daughter ever wants to return in the future too. But there's some work for you to do here first. Ironically, it might mean doing less work for a time and seeing what that's like.

So sorry you're going through this. So sorry, your stepdaughter's in pain, but there's the potential for a lot of growth here for all of you. Whatever cycle your daughter's going through, I think she has to go through it in order to work something out, and I hope she does it sooner rather than later, but that's up to her.

This is her life, this is her timeline, and you have yours. Sending you all a big hug and good luck. You can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Try to use a descriptive subject line that makes our job a whole lot easier. If your friend's accusing you of victim blaming after destroying their medical career by getting involved with a patient, your mother-in-law insists on inviting a sex offender to Thanksgiving, or you did an erotic role play with a minor on the internet years ago without even realizing it, and now you're sweating the consequences, whatever's got you staying up at night.

Lily. This is, yeah, [00:39:00] this is our show, Gabriel. These are the passengers on the dues crews. Hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. By the way, if you haven't signed up yet, come check out the newsletter. Wee bit wiser. It is a bite-sized gem from a past episode from us to you delivered to your inbox on most Wednesdays.

If you wanna keep up with the wisdom from the show and apply it to your life, I invite you to come check it out. It's a great companion to the show here. You can sign up at Jordan harbinger.com/news. Okay, next up.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. My wife and I have three kids, ages 14, five and three, and we live on a relatively small island in Canada.

Three years ago, we were invited by the owners to move into a community on a piece of land split by a ridge with 10 acres per side. The side that we live on had four other people living on it. One couple and two singles. The couple split up, and then all of them left within a two year period. On the other side live, the owners and two other families, all of them have kids and most are close in age to our younger ones.

[00:40:00] This is the kind of place where everyone gets together on Mondays to work around the property to keep things up, but the property is undermanaged.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. So it's like a micro commune on an island. What could go wrong?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Because we enjoy connection. My wife and I frequently host events and gatherings to bring people together with various focuses.

For me, it's a musical event or a men's group. For my wife, it's ritual based, like Beltane or women's gatherings.

Jordan Harbinger: What's Beltane?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. I didn't know what this was either. Beltane is like, uh, is the Gaelic Mayday festival. It's the to mark the beginning of summer apparently.

Jordan Harbinger: I love that. He just expected us to know that.

Got it. It sounds like you'd love the living there, Gabe? Actually, music, men's groups, hippie dippy, seasonal events. I wouldn't be surprised if there's some kind of a static dance going on there. You could go to your, I'm not

Gabriel Mizrahi: hearing enough high yoga. Ah. And I feel like the broadband connection would be a little iffy.

Yeah. So I don't know if it's quite my place, but I I, I take your point. Yeah. Between the two cults we've heard about so far. Between Sons of Anarchy and this one, I would definitely choose this one, if that's what you're saying.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Between the dirty ones and the Celtic Pagan [00:41:00] survivalists, I'm going Celtic Pagan survivalist

Gabriel Mizrahi: with everyone else having left on our side.

Even the echoes of children playing rarely make it over. Very few people actually walk around the property, so we also never see anyone wander past our home.

Jordan Harbinger: That is super eerie.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. What a 24 movie is this?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Seriously. This sounds like the beginning of a Jordan Peele movie or something. There's definitely a scene where somebody's like, you don't even hear the children anymore, and then in a later scene you hear a girl just laughing outside the window.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Then this year, our landlady stops showing up to my wife's events. Finally, my wife asked if there was something that she needed to share with her. The answer was yes. When the conversation finally happened weeks later, we found out that the landlady had created a story that my wife is trying to lure her partner away and break up their family.

We were, and still are shocked. Not only is this untrue, but the landlady went around to other people that we know, telling them her suspicion and having them watch my wife to verify her suspicions.

Jordan Harbinger: So like three other people, [00:42:00] it's like four other people. Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But to be fair, that's half the town.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

So that's like, if this happened in what we'd consider a small town that would be like tens of thousands of people believing you stole someone's husband. This is so weird.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's it. And there's no escaping them.

Jordan Harbinger: Nightmare. Get me to the mainland, bro. I'm over it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: My wife explained that this fantasy has no reality to it.

The landlady didn't back down from her story and asked her to simply validate it. Said, that sounds reasonable.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. No, no, I'm, I'm not listening to any of your counter arguments. Just tell me that my delusions are real. Okay.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Since that first conversation, the landlady's partner proposed to the landlady.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. And of, let me guess what happened. She realized she was wrong and profusely apologized and everything is fine now.

Gabriel Mizrahi: My wife has tried to get together again for another conversation, but nothing has come of it.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's what I thought, and I'm sure the Landlady's like she tricked him into proposing to me so that it's a better cover for her and his secret relationship.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Crazy. This has now crossed into the lives of our children with their daughter telling ours that we are not [00:43:00] invited to her mom's birthday party because the moms are fighting. Also those other people who left our side of the property that also involved this landlady. In one case, they left because of a poor relationship with her.

In another case, the landlady said in a meeting that she didn't like heart share circles because it felt like everyone simply complained about her during that time.

Jordan Harbinger: So they're going to sharing circles, and everyone's like, yeah, you're super annoying and difficult. And her response is, you know what? I don't like these sharing things.

All you guys do is complain. Not I wonder why everyone here has a problem with me. The common denominator, wow.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I've tried to talk with the landlord about our wives during one of those Mondays when we're working together, but he shifted the conversation to music. Of course, I didn't feel like there was actually enough time to open this conversation as it was 10 minutes before lunch began.

I had asked him to get together previously, and the timings never worked out.

Jordan Harbinger: Gabe, imagine this. Hey, you know, we really have to straighten out this thing between our wives 'cause this is just getting outta hand. Have you seen, do you hear that new

Gabriel Mizrahi: Taylor [00:44:00] Swift album?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Okay. It slaps. No, I, I am with you.

I'm with you. I love a good taytay track. But the thing is this thing between your fiance and my wife. Yeah. Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm just gonna send you a link to my playlist. I am. Is that my stomach or It's my stomach. I gotta get there's, it's the Bon Me day in the lunch and Hall. That's right.

Jordan Harbinger: I gotta get some can naps already.

And they're not good when they're, when they're cold. So, uh, to be continued,

Gabriel Mizrahi: I just need to check in with you and ask you, do you think that the word is knapps or do you think that these people pronounce the word ops when it's actually Es Is

Jordan Harbinger: it, is it not Knapps?

I am, uh, I had out and I should taken. It nots. Is it

Gabriel Mizrahi: so hard to not enjoy this moment too much? And I don't know if I can continue with the recording.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh my God, is it canapes and I've just been saying this wrong my whole life. Before we get to that,

Gabriel Mizrahi: I just need [00:45:00] to understand, have you been going tell me how many times you've said the word to

Jordan Harbinger: people clearly.

Wow. I hope never, because that's not really how you say it. Is it? Please just take

Gabriel Mizrahi: a moment and think about it. Is it, is it five? Is it 10? Where did this happen?

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, I should have taken the out. I should have said yes. That's how I think they pronounce it. That's

Gabriel Mizrahi: definitely how they say it. But go ahead, Gabe, please repeat my joke in the way that you would say, ah, and after all the shit that you have given me for various things over the years, like if you don't think I'm gonna Lord this over you at every opportunity, dude.

It's so good.

Jordan Harbinger: What made you think canap sounds better? I'm sorry. It it sounds better. Cannas sounds better than canapes. Canapes sounds like,

Gabriel Mizrahi: but it has an accent. Mark over the E. What did you think the accent mark meant? Don't pronounce the E. I did not know about the

Jordan Harbinger: accent. Mark.

Gabriel Mizrahi: To be fair, your pronunciation lends [00:46:00] itself much better to the phrase these knap slap.

Wow. I'm gonna pull it together and continue with this letter.

Jordan Harbinger: All right.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm now thinking that there isn't a lot of room to work with the situation and we need to find somewhere else to move. Housing here can be hard to come by, but I'm of the opinion that maybe it's best to look for a place that is just ours and invite people we care about over as we choose.

Yeah, I get that. It

Jordan Harbinger: turns out living with a bunch of other annoying people in an isolated place is kind of a nightmare. Kind of a nightmare. Yeah. Maybe we should just get a one bedroom in Alberta and have people over for game night.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Any thoughts on how to work with or around any of this? Signed thinking, we gotta call it a day.

'cause my wife and I are persona non gra

Jordan Harbinger: Gabe, one of my favorite parts of doing this show besides busting up into uncontrollable heave. Laughing. Of course. Uh, one of my favorite things is hearing all the different ways that people live.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I know, right? It's so fascinating. This is a new one. I don't think we've heard this one before.

Jordan Harbinger: No. It's like that woman in the cafe, cult slash commune from a, this is like, I don't know, a year or two [00:47:00] ago where people who live on boats and just sail year round, or military people stationed in crazy places just blows my mind how many different ways of life there are out there.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Totally. But you know, I find it comforting that people run into the same drama wherever they live.

You know, like no one's exempt.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. The dues, it stops at every port

Gabriel Mizrahi: stops at every port, every stop in the, uh, conundrum Archipelago you're gonna visit.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's right. Our friend here is about to arch Capella, go somewhere else. 'cause this landlady is a real piece of work. And I'm curious to know where she got the idea that his wife was trying to lure her partner away.

It just makes no sense.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Did that come from somewhere? Even if it's false, I'm confused.

Jordan Harbinger: Is she just totally insane and got paranoid and blame the first person she could think of? Or does his wife have a relationship with her husband and it rubbed her the wrong way? I'm just kind of puzzled about how all that started.

One party just doesn't even know.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Or does she have some other agenda? Like she just wants to drive everybody away and have the island to herself. I don't get it.

Jordan Harbinger: Whatever it is, something is clearly off about this woman. So look, I hate that you might have to leave because [00:48:00] Agatha, the petty paranoid island landlady made up some story in her head that your wife is trying to steal her man.

Ugh. Agatha,

Gabriel Mizrahi: what a perfect name.

Jordan Harbinger: But it sounds like there are many problems here, and if you guys can't resolve this, I just don't know if this living situation is tenable. It sounds like you guys are living on this parcel of land with like eight other people. Who are spying on your wife and icing you guys out and uninterested in reconsidering their assumptions and finding a way forward and you gotta do your own bathroom caulking or whatever.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Plus the property is undermanaged in general, which I wonder what that means, but doesn't sound fun.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I don't know. Honestly, if I were in your Birkenstocks man, I'd leave just, just the fact that there's no Amazon Prime on this island would already have me with one foot out the door.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Which incidentally is also something you need to repair yourself.

That's right.

Jordan Harbinger: Gotta fix that step. I probably would too, because some modern family. Yeah, when you know the dad is always filled. Doug, I was falling on the stairs.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I think I would probably leave too, because when you live in a place like this, the people you're with are everything. I mean, if you're surrounded by amazing people and you guys [00:49:00] get along great, this could be incredible.

If you're surrounded by a few people you don't get along with, or apparently everybody on the island is turning against you, that's untenable. But I'm also noticing that no one seems to be handling these conversations very well. I mean, his wife asked the landlady if there was something that they needed to talk about.

She's like, actually, yes, there is. And then weeks later, she finally tells her, yes, so you're trying to steal my husband. Sorry, I've just been so busy not fixing the door for you or whatever. And then our friend tries to talk to her husband and he keeps dodging him. And then he finally gets him alone and he lets him change the topic to music.

And he chooses to have this conversation 10 minutes before lunch. Like, how is this helping?

Jordan Harbinger: Nothing's getting solved that way. Also, you don't wanna talk about false accusations of a adultery. When someone's hangry.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's an after lunch conversation, my friend. That's

Jordan Harbinger: a full belly chat,

Gabriel Mizrahi: and everyone else is complaining about the landlady during their heart sharing circle, which I love.

Mm-hmm. Which, okay, may be fair, but Agatha clearly can't take that feedback in in front of everyone.

Jordan Harbinger: You're right. This whole community just sounds very chaotic and avoidant.

Gabriel Mizrahi: If you really wanna [00:50:00] resolve this, you need to go to this guy and say, look, I know this isn't fun to talk about, but we're neighbors.

We're your tenants. We work together, we have a problem. Your wife is accusing my wife of doing something she did not do, which you well know. She's gotten everybody to turn against us and it needs to stop. It's weird and it's false and it's making living here almost impossible. So why is this happening and how do we fix this?

Jordan Harbinger: But Gabe, you're forgetting something. They're Canadian.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, you're gonna go there? Really? You think we can afford this?

Jordan Harbinger: I know we're on thin ice with the Canadians right now, but somebody's gotta say it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You think I am overestimating their capacity for confrontation?

Jordan Harbinger: I don't know. Maybe I'm, look, I'm mostly just having to laugh, but there might be some truth to that.

They're famously friendly, which can tip into conflict avoidant.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's a interesting point. You might be right. I wonder if that is part of what's going on here. But that is how you press the issue. I don't think you can be casual at this point. Like you can't let these people deflect and delay forever.

They clearly are not gonna resolve this. You might be able to. So I'm just confused about why we're skipping that step [00:51:00] and we're going straight to, well, I guess we gotta move.

Jordan Harbinger: I agree. There's a lot of stuff being said in the wrong context and a lot of stuff going unsaid in the right context, but honestly, resolvable or not, I think there are several good reasons to leave.

Are there ways to muddle through and make the situation livable? Maybe. Are you gonna cure this lady of her bs? I doubt it. Other people already learned this lesson and left. That's the thing, man. Other people were like, okay, I'm pulling the ripcord. You can get the cheat sheet. You can figure this out yourself without having to stick around for two more years of this nonsense.

Also, you guys have kids, I know firsthand that brings your tolerance level for other people's drama down just significantly. Plus they're being affected by this treatment too. So

Gabriel Mizrahi: yeah, they're being iced out from their friends' houses. They're only friends on the entire island because of their moms and their drama.

I mean, you gotta consider their wellbeing as well.

Jordan Harbinger: Who needs that nonsense? And I know it's hard to come by housing, I get it. But you can't put a price on freedom and happiness and also not having to participate in heart sharing circles. I'd pay double rent just to not have to hold a bunch of [00:52:00] intentional island living, looky-loo, sweaty hands while everybody complains about how Agatha refuses to clear the gutters and uses too much salt in the lunchtime, Satan, so sorry this happened, but it sounds like you're living next to some loony tunes and they're making you guys a bit loony too.

It's a great story, but a terrible living situation. And if you can't change it, I say you leave and good luck. And now we want you to Arch Capella, go to our sponsor's websites and Birken stock up on the fine products and services that support this show. But you know what? Nothing's free. You're gonna have to canna pay.

We'll be right back.

This episode is sponsored in part by Grammarly. Work can really feel like whack-a-mole. I'm way more productive when I spend less time on busy work and more time on big stuff that actually matters. That's why I use Grammarly. It's an AI communication assistant that helps me get things done faster no matter what or where I'm writing.

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Jen Harbinger: Let Grammarly take the busy work off your plate so you can focus on high impact work. Download Grammarly for free at grammarly.com/podcast. That's grammarly.com/podcast.

Jordan Harbinger: I've got homes.

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This episode is sponsored in part by the defender. We all have those big goals that seem just outta reach, right? But the truth is that's what keeps us moving forward. For the people who embrace challenges and explore their way, there's the defender. The defender is built to handle whatever comes its way with legendary capability on road or off.

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So whether it's just you or the whole family, there's a model for your journey. If you're ready to embrace the impossible, the defender is your perfect partner, beyond capable and ready to go wherever you're headed Next, build your defender@landroverusa.com. If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and you found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment, support our amazing sponsors, all of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the podcast are searchable and clickable on the website at Jordan harbinger.com/deals.

And if that doesn't work, email us. We're happy to dig up codes for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show. Now for the recommendation of the week,

Lip Filla Clip: I am addicted to lip filler.

Jordan Harbinger: My recommendation this week is doing regular blood work and checking your levels [00:56:00] on hormones. You know, testosterone, estrogen, all that stuff, DHEA.

I would get a bunch of different hormone levels checked to get the doctor to recommend these for you. If you can't get it from your doctor, they don't think you need it, go to a telehealth clinic. I, I'm happy to refer those. One is Renew youth Renew youth.com/jordan. They'll give you 50% off your initial lab test Transcend company.com/jordan.

You can use anyone for this. You don't have to use our sponsors, but just get it done. I see so many people online, low energy, low libido, weight gain, weight loss, pre menopause stuff, men and women, all kinds of issues. They can't really explain that I know come from hormonal stuff or vitamin deficiencies and can totally be fixed.

And there are a whole lot of people living with stuff they can fix with supplements and lifestyle changes. But you gotta know your numbers first. For a lot of people, they're depressed, they have low libido, they don't work out well or they don't respond to working out as well. I mean, you can just fix a whole lot of stuff, especially if you're your late thirties, forties, especially if you're in your fifties.

You're almost certainly are deficient in certain stuff. [00:57:00] DHEA, vitamin D, whatever it might be. I started taking things like vitamin D and even that was just a game changer for me. But you don't wanna just start taking stuff if you're not deficient in it, that's not good either. So get the blood work done.

It can really change your whole life. I'm not advocating that people take a bunch of medications or supplement testosterone if your doctor doesn't say that you need to. But definitely get a handle on all the other stuff. Again, we'll link to those telehealth clinics in the show notes. If you do wanna support the show and you're interested in getting this done, I, I can't recommend it enough.

By the way, somebody left the funniest comment on Spotify. Yes. You can leave comments on the show on Spotify about our recommendations of the week. A listener named BST Jack said, Gabe's recommendation of the week. Here's this heartfelt and moving documentary. Here's a book on Jungian psychology Jordan's recommendation of the week.

Rent a place for your dog to shit. Made me laugh. So hard, so accurate though. Yes, it's so hilariously accurate and it sums up our brands so poetically. Gabe, I might have to start recommending poetry anthologies [00:58:00] and you're gonna have to start recommending, I don't know, suppositories or something like that.

Chamomile suppositories.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. It might be time for me to start turning these canapes into canape, you know what I'm saying? But um, maybe Berlin will bring me back down to Earth or something. Balance out these recommendations a little bit. That is hilarious.

Jordan Harbinger: And by the way, we do love your Spotify comments.

Definitely keep commenting on the show. I see all of them. I usually reply. We can't get as deep as we can in our subreddit though, which is reddit.com/r/jordan harbinger. But I do love these little chats that we get to have there.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Alright, next up. Dear Jordan and Gabe, during the COVID pandemic, my ex-wife used a shell LLC with no legitimate business activity to apply for PPP, economic injury, disaster loans, and other COVID relief programs.

To qualify, she falsely claimed to have employees using social security numbers of family members, associates, even mine, and fabricated payroll expenses and tax returns. She received over $300,000 from the US Treasury over a period of a few months. [00:59:00] Oh my

Jordan Harbinger: God. That is serious fraud. And she implicated her own family.

What a piece of work.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Why do people do this? I just, I don't get it.

Jordan Harbinger: How do they sleep at night afterward? I could never. I could never.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Instead of using those funds for any legitimate purpose, she used the money to move outta town, purchase a luxury SUV, go on vacations and buy and renovate a high-end home

Jordan Harbinger: just like that other couple that committed PPP fraud.

This is a while ago. Yeah. But the ones who bought, I think they bought like DSLR cameras. Yep. Went to Hawaii and then redid their deck or something like that. It's just unreal. Stupid.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The financial windfall also allowed her to severely limit my access to our 8-year-old son. We both lived in the same small town since our son was born, and even after our divorce, we stayed within a mile of each other so we could co-parent the best we could.

But midway through the lockdowns, she used the money to create the appearance of business income, which she then leveraged into false financial records in order to secure a mortgage on a house an hour away. She then hired an attorney who helped modify the [01:00:00] custody agreement before her move. I had my son every other day.

I picked him up from school and dropped him off regularly. Then my parenting time went down to every other weekend.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, my blood is boiling.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Meanwhile, she plunged into a lifestyle more suited to a reckless socialite than a single mother of a grade schooler. My son was left trying to anchor himself to some kind of routine while she vanished into nights of carousing, impulsive travel, and a revolving door of questionable boyfriends and hangers on coming through the house at all hours.

He was also given unsupervised access to the internet while in my ex's custody and exposed to inappropriate content at an age when he couldn't emotionally process it. Over time, his behavior worsened. He acted out at school. Eventually, he was expelled after years of documented behavior issues. I later found out that the school sent him multiple written notices over three years, none of which my ex ever responded to.

She just made excuses and ignored the situation entirely. Geez. Mother of the [01:01:00] Year. Unbelievable. In my opinion, the internet broke his brain.

Jordan Harbinger: Maybe. I'm sure it didn't help, but there's a lot going on here. Poor kid. I

Gabriel Mizrahi: think the internet might be the smallest part of this problem. Yeah,

Jordan Harbinger: yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Meanwhile, I did everything I could to alert the authorities about the fraud.

I submitted detailed information to the FBII followed up with letters to the local FBI field office, the director's office, and the US Attorney's office. Then recently I heard from a junior attorney at the US Attorney's office who said that the case was closed over a year ago. He conferred with the local FBI field manager who claimed that the case didn't meet the threshold for deeper investigation and that they were short staffed, attending to quote unquote higher priorities.

Jordan Harbinger: That is so frustrating, so she just got away with it. Sadly, that's the reality of the system, but man, that must mean countless people got away with millions, billions in fraudulent funds. That is so gross,

Gabriel Mizrahi: but that doesn't make sense. I've collected at least a dozen news stories from my region where individuals received comparable or [01:02:00] smaller amounts of money, fabricated employees, and were prosecuted for fraud by the FBI and the US Attorney's office.

I even enclosed those headlines in my most recent letter to them.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow, you're tenacious. Good for you. I can dig that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Really? I fear the case was mishandled or even quietly buried due to internal politics or ineptitude.

Jordan Harbinger: Hard to say.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Could be, yeah. Hard to say. You know, I don't know.

Jordan Harbinger: Could also just be the government's under resourced and priorities are shifting to other crimes, or I

Gabriel Mizrahi: think that's it.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Or the agent decided not to push, or the prosecutor decided the optics or complexity of the case just weren't worth it. Or the cost benefit on chasing anyone under a certain threshold just isn't worth it. But man, 300 grand is not small money. That's crazy.

Gabriel Mizrahi: This has been nothing short of a nightmare.

My ex continues to weaponize the court against me with obscure contempt filings, so I'm constantly caught up in discovery hearings and court dates. I'm trying to keep up with child support obligations, scraping together thousands for legal fees, holding down a job and covering all the extra expenses of giving [01:03:00] my son a fresh start at a new school.

But I have an amazing wife who always has my back, and I'm blessed with good friends and family who have supported me through it all. I got my son into counseling and behavioral therapy. We've also built a stable and healthy routine, and he now sees his mom every other weekend. Overall, he seems to be improving.

Most importantly, I'm closer to him now than I've ever been, and we're building a strong, lasting bond.

Jordan Harbinger: That's amazing, man. Bravo. He's so lucky to have you.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But we're on a long road to healing and my life has been turned upside down. What can I do now? Do I escalate this further, perhaps to an inspector general, a state attorney general, or even the media, or do I give up and try to make peace with the fact that Justice might never come signed, call foul on this fraud and give the feds another pro.

Stop playing God and accept that the system is flawed.

Jordan Harbinger: Gabe, you know how I feel about these stories. Yeah, your face is literally red right now. These people, they piss me off so much. I know. [01:04:00]

Gabriel Mizrahi: Also with the haircut, it's very intense. I have to say. The

Jordan Harbinger: German to me is going, how dare you break the rules? The rules and take advantage of a government program?

I mean, say what you will about these COVID relief programs. Were they appropriate? Were they necessary? Were they well administered? That's another conversation. But to knowingly defraud the government so you can buy yourself a Porsche, SUV and fly first class to Ibiza and pay for an expensive lawyer to weaponize the system against your accommodating co-parent and get full custody of your kid when you're

Gabriel Mizrahi: not even spending quality time with your child.

That's the part that bothers me the most.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, you're not even fricking parenting your kid. You're not. You're letting PornHub do it. So to treat the government aid that was meant to protect small businesses like your own little piggy bank, I just find it so despicable. It's so disrespectful. It's so patently disgusting.

And then we all, that's on us. We're on the hook for that shit. Man, we all pay for this wannabe socialite. Grifter, who would rather do Molly with dodgy guys in her McMansion than be a good mother? I just, I can't with these people, man, and I'm gonna make the standard disclaimer. Obviously we don't know her side of the story.

Maybe there are other facts we're not getting that made her [01:05:00] feel she needed to move away and get more custody. Fine,

Gabriel Mizrahi: yeah. But even if that were somehow true, this woman sounds like a hot mess and she's defrauded the government also.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. You lose credibility. I don't want to hear your side of the story quite as bad when I know that you're a fricking criminal.

Fair enough. And I'm so sorry to our friend here, that you have to co-parent with somebody like this and that she's making your life so difficult. It's just awful. There really are no words for stuff like this. The good news is it sounds like you're doing a remarkable job here between getting your son into therapy, giving him stability, finding a great partner, developing a great group of friends.

You're really killing it, man, and you should be very proud. So I'm of two minds here. Part of me is going, hell yeah, escalate this. I wanna see this woman get arrested and have to pay for what she did. And yeah, if you still have the time and emotional energy, you could file a detailed complaint with the office of the Inspector General at the DOJ Federal and within your state, you could contact your state attorney general's consumer protection division or fraud division.

I don't know much about this. I know PPP and EIDL, those are federal programs. There might be [01:06:00] state level fraud implications, especially if she falsified tax records and things like that. Defrauded a bank to get a loan. I don't know. You could definitely reach out to local journalists who've covered COVID relief fraud, see if they're interested in doing a follow up on these programs, maybe featuring your story.

Although candidly. It feels like the media has moved on from this topic, and you'd probably have to prove that she did all of these things with a ton of documentation that might be an uphill battle.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Also, the idea of like villainizing your wife in the media. I don't know. I get it, but it's, it's a little dicey.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I tend to agree. You don't control the story, the reporter, the journalist, does. Now you're dragging your ex, which is your co-parent in public. I don't know.

Gabriel Mizrahi: She's already well resourced and retaliating against you in family court and you're fighting to retain custody. I just don't see that going well.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, so the other part of me is going, uh, is this the best use of your energy at this point? Is this gonna lead to the best outcome? What is the best outcome,

Gabriel Mizrahi: really?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I do think that he needs to get clear on that because from where I'm sitting, the best outcome is that his son stays healthy and stable and he finds a way to put an end to this war with his ex.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [01:07:00] Yes. And that he continues building a successful life with his new partner.

Jordan Harbinger: That's it. Get in revenge, getting justice. I totally, I totally get it. I'd, I'd want the same, but in a world where you probably can't have both, where hitting back your ex, it just might even create more blowback for you. I think you need to pick your battles.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Also, if he's successful and someone somewhere does end up investigating his ex, what does that actually mean? Does that mean that she loses all her money and she can't torture him anymore because that would be a nice outcome. Does it mean that she loses the house and maybe even goes to prison?

Jordan Harbinger: It sounds

Gabriel Mizrahi: like a pretty good outcome to me.

I mean, I guess because she's not the best parent anyway, but that will be very stressful and very sad for everyone. I mean, look, mom might not even have a home to host her son in when she does have him.

Jordan Harbinger: I hear you. But she shouldn't be living in that house anyway, so I don't really feel bad about that at all.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I totally get that. But my point is, if his son is the priority here, if what he's working toward is peace. Escalating this might work against that, even if it's the right thing to do from a justice standpoint.

Jordan Harbinger: No. [01:08:00] Yeah, I hear that. I don't know. Gabe, I'm, I'm torn. This is a hard one for me. I'm having a dark Jordan idea here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay, let's hear it.

Jordan Harbinger: Let me put up my dusty ass lawyer hat for a second. Maybe you can have your lawyer send them something that basically says, during our review of the facts and circumstances surrounding this case, we identified certain activities by your client that appear to raise significant legal concerns under state and federal law.

We're preparing documentation that could be submitted to the relevant authorities, and we'll be pursuing every available legal remedy and defense in this matter, including discovery into these issues which may require sworn testimony and the production of records that could be of interest to law enforcement agencies.

So it might be in your client's best interest to reevaluate their position in this litigation. If your client wishes to discuss a resolution that avoids protracted proceedings, we remain available to engage in settlement discussions now. Damn

Gabriel Mizrahi: dude, that was terrifying. Just a year. And so wait, that's not blackmail?

Jordan Harbinger: No. That, that might be blackmail. Oh, okay. Okay. I just wanna make sure I understand. It's at least blackmail [01:09:00] adjacent. Okay. Which I look, first of all, I cannot fully endorse you doing this. No, of course not. You definitely, definitely, definitely want your attorney to handle it in a way that is not going to be blackmail.

Okay. The reason this might be effective is it makes it sound like an investigation is a lot more likely, especially if your lawyer can work in the fact that the authorities have already been in touch with you about this, which is true, even though you reached out to them. That is going to scare the shit out of her.

If that's too agro for you, the gray Jordan version of this, which is probably a little bit more, I don't know, legal, you could say to her, Hey, I know we don't get along right now, but we're co-parenting our son. And I frankly, look, all of our bullshit aside, I am worried right now because the FBI called and they're in touch about the PPP fraud stuff.

What do you want me to do? And again, run that by your attorney first, but that might buy you some goodwill with her. Maybe she goes like, oh my God, okay, at the end of the day, we are co-parenting our son and oh my God, he has [01:10:00] my balls in a vice because the FBI called him. You're really sort of subtly communicating that you have leverage here, but you're framing it like you wanna do what she wants you to do because of for the benefit of your son.

And that's probably a little bit more kosher than having your attorney tell her that you're gonna cooperate with the authorities if she doesn't drop the litigation, which is blackmail, by the way, slash extortion.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You know, I'm just thinking about question two, the stepmother of the chaotic daughter and how part of the reason that she's fighting so hard with her stepdaughter might be to stave off some painful feelings.

And I wonder if our friend here might be going through something similar, like if he decides to stop escalating this with the authorities, he has to accept that his ex got away with all of this. Not just the fraud, but also the poor parenting and everything that she's doing to him in the courts, which is really upsetting.

It's just really interesting. I mean, the big theme of today's episode seems to be what would I have to contend with and what would I then have to grieve if I stopped fighting for the improbable outcome that I really want?

Jordan Harbinger: Right? [01:11:00] Sadness, anxiety, grief. In the case of the stepmom, anger, impotence, resentments, and I, I guess also some grief in this guy's case.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Totally. You know, he's grieving his ability to hold his ex to account. He's grieving his belief in the justice system. And he's also holding all of this anger and sadness about his son and what he had to go through.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it just grinds my gear. She gets to commit fraud and enjoy the money with seemingly no regret.

And he's left holding all these difficult feelings. It just sucks.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. But I will say, I think his ex does have to hold some difficult feelings, even if she's not fully in touch with them. Because why else would you feel the need to defraud the government to the tune of $300,000 to get your hands on a bunch of money that is not yours, so that you can neglect your child and apparently escape your own life?

Jordan Harbinger: That's a good point. That is its own form of punishment in the end. So look, if you put your son in your peace first, then you can't go wrong. And maybe this is also an opportunity to enjoy the victory of that a little more. 'cause as much as I'd love to see your ex do a year in the pen. What you're building here is so much more important, man.

It's so [01:12:00] much more rewarding sending you and your son a big hug and wishing your ex a very stressful knock at her door one day. Good luck with all that. Go back and check out Taylor Lorenz if you haven't done so yet. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people I know, like, and trust, and I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself.

The course is free. It's on the Thinkific platform. It's six minute networking.com. I wish I knew this stuff 20 years ago. Dig that well before you get thirsty. Build relationships before you need them again. Sixminutenetworking.com. Show notes and transcripts on the website, deals, discounts, ways to support the show at Jordan harbinger.com/deals.

I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn, Gabe's on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi. This show is created, an association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tadas Sidlauskas, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer.

Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Ditto, Scott Payne. [01:13:00] Remember, rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.

Discover how withholding bathroom breaks can be a strategic negotiation tactic. Why everyone should try entrepreneurship at least once and when it's acceptable to burn bridges.

JHS Clip: I left Marvel, remember of the straw that broke the camel's back. We started Image Comic book. I had to create my own character, my own comic book.

I pulled out this character called Spawn. Somebody I created when I was a kid, when I was 16. Spawn comes out, ends up setting a record for the most sales ever by a creator that is non-corporate. And I've never drawn a page for Marvel or DC since. I think there are thousands that are way, way, way, way, way better than me.

I don't say that humbly. I say that as a fact, but there's another piece to it. Then there's the hustle, and I am relentless on that part. [01:14:00] What I'm not ever trying to do is slay the giant. I'm never gonna do it. I'm not big enough. I don't have enough resources to do it. That's not the goal. The goal is to survive amongst the giants and to thrive amongst the giants.

And then you get to ask sort of the ironic question, why can't the giant kill me? They've got nothing but time and effort and money and resources, and they can't squash me. And then in the toy business, I've got a toy business. I go up against the Hasbros and Mattels of the world, and those are Fortune 500 companies.

I literally am at War Against Giants every day of my life. I either accept what's in front of me or I go and change it. If you're successful at art, then the byproduct of that is cash. Cash to me is sort of, should be sort of the last thing in the equation.

Jordan Harbinger: Dive deeper into these intriguing topics and more in episode 9 99 of The Jordan Harbinger Show with Todd [01:15:00] McFarlane.