1248: Bitter Defamation Tests Small Town Reputation | Feedback Friday

1248: Bitter Defamation Tests Small Town Reputation | Feedback Friday

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Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with feedback, Friday producer, the high-end Salon Tweezer, helping me pluck this unibrow of life drama, Gabriel Mizrahi. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, We decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. And during the week, we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks from arms dealers, drug traffickers, former jihadi, rocket scientists, and astronauts. This week we had Mike Feldstein from Jasper. We talked about air quality, smoke mold and more.

We also had Dr. Eric Cole, former CIA on cybersecurity and the incoming impending cyber nine 11, and we also did a skeptical Sunday on Black Friday. On Fridays though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious sound bites, and compare Gabe to various premium bathroom appliances.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, and our [00:01:00] dear listeners dilemmas to unwanted follicles, apparently. That's

Jordan Harbinger: right. That's right. I hear we have a full DOS cruise today, so let's get right into it. Gabe, what is the first thing outta the mailbag?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. Over three years ago, I co-founded a small business with a woman in my very small isolated town, A dream I had nurtured for six years and invited her into.

During the few months we were partnered, I stepped away from my own main business of 10 years to devote all my time to the new venture. Then shortly after we launched, while I was out of town, she abruptly turned hostile. It started when she intentionally crossed an ethical boundary. I had clearly said almost as if she wanted to provoke a conflict.

There hadn't been any fight or issue before that. Her shift was confusing and extreme at the beginning. I did everything I could to deescalate and seek resolution calmly, respectfully, and with documentation to prove it. Even through her hostility and abuse, it didn't matter. She stole all of our inventory from my home studio before I returned, [00:02:00] sabotaged the company and kicked off a years long smear campaign.

Impersonation, defamation, cyber bullying, stalking, and relentless social sabotage. Within two weeks of stealing the inventory, she had it repackaged under a different brand and has been selling the product and using our intellectual property ever since. While publicly claiming to this day that I owe her a substantial amount of money, infuriating, she's also framed me as mentally ill and untrustworthy, weaponized and twisted, sensitive personal information about my past.

Posted my photo with captions like worst person I've ever known. I escaped the devil herself and fabricated stories about me harming others, and even conspiring to murder in our local Facebook groups and her personal social media. She's reached out to landlords, business owners, and my closest friends in an effort to isolate me socially and professionally.

Sometimes offering dinners or tea time, or sending unsolicited voice memos to [00:03:00] warn them that I'm a dangerous, manipulative narcissist. Hiding behind a mask, all under the guise of protecting the community and community care. It's not just online. She's followed me in her car and recently approached me aggressively on the street, then trailed me and a friend into a store after trying to confront me.

She's even impersonated me in an attempt to have me committed to a psychiatric facility in a tight-knit community of just a few thousand people that I'm deeply involved in. This is devastating behind the scenes. Several people have told me that they know she's unstable and out of control, but most are understandably afraid to stand up to her or call her out.

I do believe she's digging her own grave, but the damage in the meantime has been immense. I no longer know what she's capable of as her audacity seems to have no bounds. After the theft, I hired an expensive business attorney to dissolve and settle the 50 50 LLC and liquidate the assets. But due to his negligence, he sent an embarrassingly erroneous letter without my [00:04:00] review.

She was able to manipulate the situation, stall the settlement, and rack up my bill, which put me into debt. Oh my

Jordan Harbinger: God.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So

Jordan Harbinger: irritating

Gabriel Mizrahi: to hear. I'm so sorry. I believe his errors gave her the justification she uses for her ongoing harassment. I've kept meticulous records of all of this, but have never responded publicly.

Recently after she escalated to posting on a public community forum, accusing me of being litigious, fraudulent, exploitative, and predatory, I filed for a restraining order. The temporary order was denied and I'm now hesitant to have her served before the hearing, which is scheduled in a couple of weeks.

The idea that she'll read the harassment details and impact statement without a TRO in place feels legitimately terrifying. I fear it will enrage and fuel her, yet also give her the satisfaction of knowing how much harm she's caused. And if I were to lose the hearing, even though my case is strong, I honestly don't know how I would recover from that blow.[00:05:00]

I'm a single woman, self-employed, and managing chronic health issues. While I'm fortunate to have amazing support in this town, this campaign has wrecked my livelihood, disrupted my reputation, destroyed some quote unquote friendships, and consumed my peace of mind and feelings of safety, walking away and starving.

This person of attention hasn't stopped it. I've been no contact since August, 2022, and the constant hypervigilance is wearing me down. I've done therapy. I've made art from the pain. I've stayed off social media. I've tried every version of detachment I can think of. It seems that the more resilient and nonresponsive I am, the more nuclear she gets.

Nothing slows her down. I'm in a nightmare. I cannot seem to wake up from. How do you mentally navigate a long-term campaign like this when disengagement doesn't end it? How do you protect your future when someone is actively rewriting your past? Is pursuing a malpractice case against a lawyer or a defamation case against the abuser worth the financial and emotional [00:06:00] cost.

And do you have any practical or psychological strategies beyond the legal system for surviving this kind of sustained attack? Any dark Jordan wisdom signed looking to recover? When I can't find a buffer against this woman who wants to smother other and be a real motherfucker when all I'm trying to do is discover how to be a lover and take cover.

Jordan Harbinger: Man, this is awful. A nightmare indeed. I'm so sorry you're going through this. This ex-partner of yours, I don't know Gabe. She doesn't just sound mean and petty. She sounds mentally ill. Yeah. I was almost like, wow, this person is like uber petty and Uber mean. But then it was like, oh, it's been since 2022.

Okay. That's not a normal time to hold a grudge at this level of intensity, if that makes sense. You know, like

Gabriel Mizrahi: while you're also trying to run the business you wanna make successful, so it's

Jordan Harbinger: curious that you stole from her. It's very odd. Whatever led up to this business breakup, no one deserves this kind of treatment and you'd have to just be off your rocker to wanna ruin someone's life in this way.

[00:07:00] I, when I had a bad business breakup, I didn't even think about doing stuff like this. Really? You're like, I hope he gets hit by a garbage truck and then like two hours later you're like, oh, whatever you like, teeter between apathy. Gotta schedule my next interview.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Gotta keep working.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. And then like a few months later you're just like, eh, whatever.

Like if a bad thing happened, I wouldn't be like sad about it, but I'm not gonna spend any energy making that happen. Okay. This woman, she sounds like she's out of her freaking tree and she just has way too much time on her hands. Truly disturbing. And my heart goes out to you for all of it. We wanted to talk to an expert here of course.

So we reached out to attorney and friend of the show. Corbin, Payne and Corbin had the same reaction we did. He said, this is awful. He hates hearing this. So to get this legal subplot outta the way, Corbin said that it sounds like that janky attorney caused you actual damages and destroyed your case by sending a bad letter.

He also said he was shocked that it was sent without your review. I frankly am too. I my lawyers. Send me everything. And it's not just because I'm also a lawyer. I mean, they wanna make sure that it's correct. [00:08:00] In fact, Corbin said he never does anything like that because he doesn't know all the facts about what his clients have lived through.

And he's definitely capable of misunderstanding things communicated by one of his clients, as is any attorney really. So he does feel that you have a negligence slash malpractice case against this lawyer, dollars to donuts. The attorney has malpractice insurance for stuff like this. So he's gonna be represented by an attorney, paid by an insurance company and insurance companies they'll pay out.

When push comes to shove, especially against the plaintiff, the question becomes, is it worth pursuing? Corbin's take was, if this were the only thing you were dealing with, he'd say, yeah, maybe the problem is this isn't the only thing you're pursuing and that changes the calculus for Corbin. So he felt that you need to ask yourself if it's really worth fighting a two front war.

If you're asking me, I guess I would say like, you know, let the lawyer thing go and focus on the main problem here. But again, that's up to you to decide. Corbin did say that if you don't sue him, you could still report him to the licensing board. So the bar for an ethics [00:09:00] violation and or a malpractice, they investigate, they can impose sanctions or other punishment.

If they decide it's warranted, that's totally free, but it's unlikely that you will get any damages from that. But there is something satisfying about reporting a bad lawyer and knowing that they're getting their ass handed to them and they're actually facing consequences from somebody they can't ignore.

But look, it might be helpful to you down the line because you might be able to use it to counteract any defenses your ex-partner could raise about that letter, and it could help you make the case that you are not the villain here. So that bit of business dispensed with, let's talk about the real villain here.

This ex-business partner, this B word on wheels. Man, she, Gabe. The lion, the witch, and the audacity of this. Am I right? That

Gabriel Mizrahi: is a classic

Jordan Harbinger: right there. Corbin's Strong take was absolutely proceed forward on the restraining order. Here's why this woman is already awful. Corbin totally gets why you feel you can't bear the thought of this woman reading about how she hurt you.

He gets it, we get it, but we just don't [00:10:00] know that the pain of that is greater than the long-term pain of getting her to act with impunity. Corbin's stance is the best way to deal with bullies is head on. To quote him here, they're pretty cocky until somebody punches them in the mouth in the beginning.

Yes, this kind of situation often hurts for the victim. The bully remains a bully. They continue to behave as such. But Corbin said that something powerful happens after a victim starts standing up for themselves. The bully starts to realize that they have no actual power for all their strength in cunning and malice.

They usually can't force their victim to do anything unless the victim consents to it. You probably know this. Corbin has represented several former bullies and more than a few current bullies, as well as many victims of bullying, losing control, having a victim get up and hit back after taking a pounding from the bully.

He said, that is a moment of profound terror for the bully. So his wish for you, be brave and be relentless.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yep. To quote him one more time here, he said, no bully is ever truly brave. At best. Their fool Hardy. [00:11:00] And I think that might apply to a woman who is. Putting herself at considerable risk to make your life a living health.

So Corbin wanted to dig into this a little deeper, and he made a few assumptions after reading between the lines of your email. He might not be right about every single one, but he wanted to get into this a little bit more. So Corbin has a suspicion that you asked the judge to grant a temporary restraining order in which the judge orders your ex-partner to stop saying certain things.

If that's the case, Corbin said that it won't fly because we have a First Amendment right to free speech, right? So entering into an order to make her stop saying certain things about you, that is gonna be a tough sell. But that doesn't mean you're out of options. Corbin feels that you need to be asking the court to order her deceased defaming.

Libeling, which is written defamation, slandering, which is spoken, verbal, defamation, and or harassing you. Those actions are not covered by the constitution. She doesn't have a protected right to do those things. Corbin said a judge can absolutely order that nonsense to stop, [00:12:00] and it is a subtle distinction, but it's an important one.

So his advice there is after getting in front of the judge, stress this aspect of her conduct and her statements with all of your documentation, ask for protection against abuse, defamation, slander, libel, Corbin said that's the framework in which the judge can operate.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, Corbin is also thrilled that you've meticulously documented everything.

That's critical. And you can probably bet this woman hasn't documented anything. I don't know what it is about bullies, but they're so cocky and this person is also sort of like not all there. I think it's very unlikely that they've created the documentation that's gonna be persuasive in court.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It would be a whole other layer of crazy if she were actually documenting her own harassment and abuse.

Right. Of our friend here, it's like on Tuesday, March 3rd, I drove and tailed her to the hardware store in town. Exactly. No, that's not happening. She doesn't know where she was, which day

Jordan Harbinger: when, I mean, I suppose there's a world in which she documents things that are only happening in her mind and then, but it's like, okay.

And [00:13:00] she doesn't document her response to those things. So when you say that she's engaging in misconduct and she's swearing she didn't, it's really gonna be your documentation that wins the day. So get tactical for a moment. Walk in there with two copies of everything depending on your state's rules of evidence.

You will likely have to hand a copy to her or her attorney and another to the judge. If you need to play videos or audio recordings, make sure to bring whatever equipment as well as AV hookups to facilitate that. Maybe you even consider bringing in a few other witnesses who can also document what's been done.

Like that friend you walked into the store with that day that she followed you,

Gabriel Mizrahi: and if the judge orders your ex-partner to quit harassing you, then she faces an important choice. Does she give it up and concede defeat or does she double down and keep harassing and defaming you? If she concedes defeat, then you'll have peace, which would be so sweet.

If she doubles down, then you can hit her with a contempt of court petition. She could be looking at fines and or jail.

Jordan Harbinger: If all this fails, you also have the option to sue her for defamation, liable slander, conversion, which is theft, [00:14:00] basically, all of that. That's a whole other topic and not one I'd necessarily recommend doing right now, but if you do, you're gonna wanna consider hiring another attorney, a competent one.

Of course, maybe this time it's not fun, but Corbin really wants you to keep up the pressure and keep fighting back until this woman gives up. Corbin had one last piece of wisdom

Gabriel Mizrahi: for you. He said that standing up in a trial or in a hearing when you're in a big courtroom is strange. It feels like you're the center of attention.

All eyes are on you. He said it can be one of the loneliest feelings in the world. It's scary. But he also said that it's absolutely one of the most exhilarating experiences of your life. He said Few things can actually touch it. You can reduce the anxiety and the fear that you have with plenty of preparation, bringing plenty of documentation, having a good attorney by your side.

If you feel flustered, you can keep yourself from tripping or stumbling by listening carefully to the judge, and you can always say, Hey, can I just take a moment, collect your thoughts, and then speak. But in Corbin's experience, it is a grand thing to present a just and [00:15:00] worthy case. And he believes that you have a very just and worthy case.

And to also know that while you're up there by yourself, you are not alone. He said, and I love Corbin for saying this, he said, consider me there beside you in spirit, and I am pretty confident. I can also say that the members of our show fam, who care about justice are also with you in spirit. So kick ass and let us know how it goes.

I hope you can really make the shrew squeal, which ha fully onboard with this sentiment.

Jordan Harbinger: That's funny. I 100% concur. Now, I know you're asking for some dark Jordan thoughts, and believe me, I would love to give some to you. But in a case like this, where you will probably soon be facing this person in a courtroom or in some kind of legal process or.

You might one day be suing her. What you don't wanna do is create a situation where the judge hears how you also set up some scheme where her business is getting carpet bombed with one star reviews from the internet, or her inventory she stole from you. It's suddenly tainted for some weird reason, whatever dark scheme you've cooked up, [00:16:00] and that it can loosely pin it on you.

You want clean hands, even if it's not relevant. The judge might look at any dart stuff you've done and go, ah, okay. This person is also kind of a piece of crap. Let them sort it out. This could be a judge, a mediator, arbitrator, a jury. It doesn't matter. But you don't want that appearance of everybody sucks here.

When you're bringing a tort against someone, when you're trying to tell the story that you are the true victim and you have the moral high ground, you wanna be able to say with total confidence, especially given how nerve wracking this already is for you, you wanna be able to say, I did everything right.

This woman is targeting me. I need protection. You don't wanna invite unnecessary gray area.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I completely agree. I just wanna touch on one other thing here, and it's a little delicate in a case like this where one party is clearly the aggressor, but I do wonder how our friend here decided to get into business with this woman, and if she might have along the way, overlooked any red flags or curious signs at [00:17:00] the start, or maybe even failed to look closely in the first place, and if maybe that played some role in all of this at the beginning.

We've talked about this before, Jordan, doing the forensics on these things. It isn't just necessary to crack the case and learn whatever lesson you need to learn so this doesn't happen again. It's also part of healing from these things. So when you go, oh, you know what? I did notice that weird thing, or that first time we had coffee and she said that thing about that person who used to be in her life and they're not, they don't talk anymore.

And I, I got a strange feeling, but I just didn't think about it again. You know when you do that analysis that reminds you that you were not totally asleep at the wheel, right? You alarm system was not completely offline, it was still there operating. But you didn't fully honor it, and that hurts and it's upsetting.

It's a bit of an injury, but it's also reassuring and comforting. And yes, it is part of how you learn for the future, and I think that is one big way to protect your future as you put it, when someone is actively rewriting your past.

Jordan Harbinger: A hundred percent agree. I always get slightly sweaty when we bring up this point because the last [00:18:00] thing I wanna do is seem like I'm victim blaming, like you said, especially in a case like this.

But I do feel that being the victim that's compatible with acknowledging that there might have been some interesting signs. And it's definitely compatible with acknowledging that it would be wise to clock signs like these in the future or do more homework on somebody before doing a business with them.

Like I always recommend people do a background check on people they go into business with. Like it won't always help. You know, you go into business with somebody when you're 25, they don't have a record. Maybe they have moved to normal number of times, but it's interesting. I recorded a show with an expert on con artists and he told me that he also does background checks on any person who holds a significant position in his life.

Friends, acquaintances, colleagues, babysitters, everyone. He just has a membership. Gabriel's one of those, you know, like databases? Yeah. All the people find me.gov, whatever it is. So with somebody this crazy, he wants to see if there's any criminal history, any lawsuits, any sort of weird debts or dodgy assets.

This stuff can show up in weird ways. So with somebody this crazy, I [00:19:00] don't know, man. It's just a good bet. They didn't probably start being this crazy just with you.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Good

Jordan Harbinger: point. Like, you know someone who is crazy and you ask people that know them and they're like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, Kate, ugh, she's got issues.

And you're like, oh, okay. It's not just me. There's a really good chance if you're in your thirties and you're dealing with somebody crazy, this ain't their first rodeo. They've already been to the crazy Super Bowl a couple of times, so look for a track record of crazy. It's not always there. Again, this is not foolproof, it's just it's possible.

This woman has never been indicted or sued or caught doing anything, but maybe she has. And so it's easy to do this kind of due diligence on people. It might not have saved you here, but then again, maybe it would've,

Gabriel Mizrahi: especially in a small town. Right? She said that only a few thousand people live where she lives.

Word gets around fast, clearly because this woman is unfortunately, very successful in turning the community against our friend. So even if this woman doesn't have a criminal record or hasn't been a defendant in a lawsuit, maybe our friend here could have asked around a little bit more. Maybe she could have slowed down the early phases of their business relationships, spent more time with her [00:20:00] in their social circles, gotten more data.

In a way, it's even easier in a tight-knit community.

Jordan Harbinger: Absolutely. Another interesting thing to look for, people who cause this kind of ruckus, they often move around a lot, out of necessity. The average person moves like 11 times. I think he said in their life, the woman who conned, that guest I told you about, she had moved something like 44 times in 20 years, or it was nuts.

It was like every six months she moved somewhere. It might have even been more than that. That's huge. Red flag. Huge red flag. Now look, maybe there's some job where that's normal, like you're in medical device sales or the military or something. Even then, every six months, that's a lot. But all other things being equal is probably not a red flag.

If somebody has a job like that and everything else is fine, but if Janice, who sells dream Catchers on Etsy has moved 13 times in the last eight years, what's going on? That's a little bit more su There's more of that story. That's right. Just, just another interesting what

Gabriel Mizrahi: dream catcher drama did you get into Janice?

Exactly.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. She's on the run for, uh, infringing on dream catcher patents in other countries. [00:21:00] It's just another interesting data point to look for, even in the absence of overtly concerning information. Beyond that, please make sure you're taking good care of yourself, surrounding yourself with a couple good friends, advisors, experts, venting and processing all this stuff with the right people, sleeping enough, moving your body, getting out in nature.

Hopefully on a trail, this loony tune doesn't frequent, like maybe don't go to the same park and bird watch. But it's crucial just to take care of yourself, not just so you don't go outta your mind, but so that you're in the best possible shape when you present your case and you secure that restraining order.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I assume part of the reason you're saying that, Jordan, is that there is a theme in her letter of being deeply shaken, affected, traumatized by this woman. Very understandable reasons. If this woman isn't gonna let up anytime soon, or if she is not gonna win in the bigger picture with this business, she's gonna have to heal and move on in some way.

That is her own right. She has to find a way to protect herself from letting this woman ruin her life. [00:22:00]

Jordan Harbinger: I concur. It's just another hard part of a story like this to tackle, but sometimes the villains get away with a lot and it's still on the victims to build up the parts of themselves necessary to survive, which is sometimes the real victory.

I'm so sorry this is happening to you. You don't deserve any of it. There are really bad people out there with nothing better to do than to fixate on another person. It's a unique kind of crazy, and it must be crazy making, but there is a way through this and there is a light at the end of the tunnel, and it begins with getting this restraining order.

So stay strong, stay focused, and trust that the system will support you if you work at the right way. Sending you a big hug and wishing you all the best. You know what else is batshit crazy? Gabriel, the deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

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Just go to jasper.co/jordan and use code Jordan. This episode is also sponsored by Aura Frames. Every year we take a million photos over the holidays, the kids opening [00:24:00] gifts, the one uncle falling asleep on the couch, the same family recipe on the table, and then they sit on our phones forever and nobody ever looks at 'em again.

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Please consider supporting those who support the show now back to feedback Friday.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Alright, what's next? Dear Jordan and Gabe, my younger brother, mark and I have always had a relatively close relationship. We grew up in a difficult and abusive home, which in some ways bonded us, but also left deep emotional scars as adults.

That trauma has affected Mark's ability to trust our family. He often makes major life decisions without consulting or informing any of us. For example, two years ago, he legally changed his first and last name to distance himself from our family rather than seeking therapy for his past trauma. [00:26:00] Then this year, something happened that completely caught me off guard.

I got married in May and Mark was part of the wedding party. He was involved and supportive throughout during the wedding. I noticed he asked a lot of questions about marriage and relationships, but I didn't think much of it at the time. A couple months later, he called me to tell me that he had gone to Las Vegas in July and eloped.

I was shocked. He hadn't mentioned dating anyone seriously. He explained that he met his now wife about a year and a half ago in college and that they had been dating for a year. She's Ukrainian here on a special university scholarship and doesn't yet have her green card. Naturally, I had a lot of questions.

Mark insisted that they're in love and that she isn't using him for immigration purposes or money. Still, I'm worried my brother isn't wealthy, but he has worked hard and saved a substantial amount for his age. I can't shake the fear that he might be taken advantage of, especially given his history of emotional vulnerability and distrust of family.[00:27:00]

I'm a police investigator, so I'm just trying to explore every possible option and resource we could use. I wanna respect his autonomy, but also protect him from potential harm and be ready to help him if need be. Are there any legal or financial protections, my husband or family or I can put in place in case this turns out to be a scam, or if the marriage was made under false pretenses?

Anything else we can do to prepare or protect ourselves if things go south in his marriage? Signed a cautious cop currently in a stop because she's looking to stop this woman from trying to swap. Her circumstances by tying the knot.

Jordan Harbinger: Ooh, interesting little feedback. Friday slash 90 day fiance crossover episode going on here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Who knew the DOS Cruise stopped in Odessa? Huh?

Jordan Harbinger: I report in every country. That's right. There's no place on earth that Dos Cruise does not venture so good. Dos, dos, dos, dos. So first of all, I'm very sorry to hear about this childhood you had. I am sorry that it's affected you and Mark so much. It's tragic.

I get why [00:28:00] you're on edge. You wanna protect your brother after a lifetime of this stuff. I'm sure you're also looking at all this with your cop glasses on and going, is this really safe? Is this legit? What is this woman truly after? It's a hard place to be. So I had a buddy a while ago now, and he was dating a girl from another country and she was nice, but she was way younger and she was spoiled, I think is maybe the word I'm looking for.

I dunno. There were, there were just some flags, like what? She had $4,500 handbags where I was like, damn, that's a really nice bag. And then I was like, wait, aren't you a random college student that goes to school online? Oh, interesting. And then also I noticed that one of her favorite places to travel was Dubai.

And I was like,

Gabriel Mizrahi: in this day and age, that unfortunately can be a bit of a red flag. Some

Jordan Harbinger: people love Dubai, but when you're a 20-year-old girl with $4,000 handbag, why

Gabriel Mizrahi: are you going to Dubai? Girl?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. How did that happen? I remember she told all of us. God knows what the context was, but that her ex-boyfriend had given her like [00:29:00] $8,000 for her birthday.

Just cash. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Maybe it was 4,000, but like, Hmm. And then they were gonna go somewhere and he's like, yeah, it's kind of expensive. And she's like, oh, it's not that bad. Flights are only, and it was like insane. And he is like, what? I saw half that. And she's like, well these are business class seats.

I don't like to fly economy. And if girl, you are 21, what are you talking about? You've never had a job. You've never flown economy. You don't care about the prices. You have handbags that are worth more than my first car. What is happening? Oh God, where is the story going? I think I already know. But so we were just like, yeah, there's something going on here.

And then one day I remember like she had her travel documents out 'cause she was doing something, I can't remember what it was, but then I was there and I was like. I wanna look at her passport. You looked

Gabriel Mizrahi: and that was the pregnant pause. I was like, I know you gotta, yeah. I was like, do I admit this right

Jordan Harbinger: now?

But I was hella suspicious and I was like, huh. What were you looking for though? Were you looking for [00:30:00] stamps? I was looking for stamps. Yeah. Dubai entry visas or like Yeah. But the name that we knew her by was different than the one in her passport that said people from other countries have 10 names sometimes.

Sure. So like you might be like. Alexandra, but then your name is actually something totally different and you go by your middle name and you have the different last name than the one on your passport because your parent, da, da, da. Like, who knows? Yeah. We've all read Told story. Yeah, exactly. Or just, you know how Hispanic people have 18 names?

Because, I don't know, they're classy. Like that mothers ma, a name, middle name. Yeah. It's one of those things where each little thing individually, like the previous question, each little thing individually, not a big red flag. Oh, you use a different name than what's on your passport. No big deal. Right. Some people have legal names.

They use different ones of their credit cards than they do with their friends. Okay, fine. And then it's like, oh, but you've never had this and you have these handbags and you go to Dubai all the time. And it was just like, okay, dude, I'm on tenter hooks. What happened? Finally, we were just like, dude, there's so many red [00:31:00] flags here.

This is suss, but more importantly, your values and your lifestyle just don't match. You like going camping and like doing houseboat parties with your friends and going to music festivals, and she likes going to luxury shopping malls in Dubai. This is not a good match, dude. And there was an age gap to like, again, each thing individually, maybe not a deal breaker, but altogether.

So finally we were like, okay. And then so he broke up with her and we felt bad 'cause we were like, did we just like ruin this relationship? Three months later she married a different dude. Oh, three months. 'cause we were like, oh, she just wants a green card. This is a bunch of bs. And then we were like, oh, we better be right about this.

And then like three months later she was married to another guy and we were like, huh. She gained a little bit of way. Oh my God, she's pregnant. Oh, okay. So it was just like, yikes. And that was one of the things this person had told us. That was another flag. I didn't mention this 'cause it's a little icky, but he was like, yeah, she hates using condoms because they don't feel good.

And I'm like, dude, she is trying to baby trap you 1000%. [00:32:00] That is terrifying. Yeah. So anyway, not to give you nightmare fuel. What have we done here? I'm not, we've just made our friend here spiral out anymore. I'm not saying everyone from another country who marries an American is like this, obviously, but this stuff does happen.

So I really do understand your concern. The bad news is based on what I know, there's very little family members can do to protect another adult's assets once they're married. Is there anything

Gabriel Mizrahi: really you can do? I don't think

Jordan Harbinger: so. You cannot leave them your assets or put them in a trust or something like that.

But basically, unless your brother invites you into his affairs in some way, he gives you power of attorney or some form of shared control over his assets. Why would he do that? He's not

Gabriel Mizrahi: gonna do that. Yeah,

Jordan Harbinger: and by the way, we quickly ran this by an immigration attorney friend of ours. And he concurred. He said, you're not the spouse, you're a family member.

There is just ultimately nothing you can do directly here except give advice. It's not up to you, your husband, your family, to determine the validity of their relationship, but you could try to encourage him to protect [00:33:00] himself in other ways. He could get a post nup, although that's a very tricky conversation.

I've never heard of anyone doing that successfully. Actually, he could maintain separate bank accounts until he is totally sure he can trust his wife. He could ensure that any significant assets and accounts remain in his name unless he chooses otherwise later. Although, here's the thing, she might be entitled to these regardless, especially to any assets earned once they're married.

In many states, that would be considered joint property. And in community property states that's subject to an equal 50 50 split. Again, are you gonna be able to convince him to do all this? I'm guessing not, but these are some ideas you could respectfully run by him. The reality is we come back to this theme time and time again.

You can't make your brother do anything he doesn't want to do. All you can do is inform him and support him as best you can. And that probably means going on record about the risks here, where your concerns are, how he can protect himself as best he can. After that, it's up to him, especially since they've already eloped.

And if it turns out that this woman was after him for his [00:34:00] money or his immigration status, then he has to live with the consequences. He has to learn that lesson for himself. And at that point, he might be willing to listen to you in a new way.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly. I think our friend here already knows that this might be a losing battle or there's just only so much you can do.

But what you can do is say, brother, I love you. I care about you. I want you to be happy. If this is your person, I'm thrilled for you, but as your sister and honestly as a cop, it is hard for me to turn off this part of my brain. This also comes from love. I just wanna make sure that you are really thinking this through and that you're protecting yourself as much as you can.

I know we don't usually talk about this stuff, and that's okay. I'm not trying to overstep. You don't have to tell me anything you don't want to, but before you move forward in this marriage, I just have to encourage you to make sure that this relationship is totally fair, totally safe, totally legit, that you are 100% sure that there are no mixed motivations or ulterior motives here, because the reality is you are a little bit of a target because you are so successful for your age because you're from the United [00:35:00] States.

I'm not accusing your wife of anything. I'm not saying this isn't real. I'm just saying I wanna make sure that you know that this is real, that you are clear about her. And that you understand what is at stake, and if you ever wanna talk about any of this stuff, I'm here for that. I'm not trying to convince you of anything.

I just want you to have a safe person to bounce off of and another pair of eyes on this stuff.

Jordan Harbinger: I really like that. I think in situations like this, it's helpful to ask yourself, what will I wish I had said? If this goes sideways, what will I wanna know I tried to do? Even if you can't make him do anything,

Gabriel Mizrahi: she's saying that she wants to respect his autonomy, but also protect him and be ready to help him if need be.

I think this is what that looks like.

Jordan Harbinger: And as we also seem to come back to a lot, part of respecting someone's autonomy is coping with the feelings that come up if it turns out that she can't intervene and protect him,

Gabriel Mizrahi: which is especially fraught for a friend here, right? Because she's a police investigator.

So

Jordan Harbinger: yeah, hyper developed sense of responsibility, always looking for the worst case scenario.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm actually fascinated that this childhood produced such different [00:36:00] siblings, and it sounds like created an interesting dynamic between them. One sibling ended up struggling to trust the family, became super independent.

Secretive doesn't even really want to talk about this in therapy, although there might be more complicated reasons for that. The other sibling, based on what we know became a police investigator. Someone who I imagine takes it upon herself to, you know, to get out ahead of problems, take care of other people, keep them safe.

I do wonder if her impulse to step in and protect her brother began at a very early age, and it's probably pretty hard for her to make peace with the limit of her influence in the situation. Just to imagine that there could be something wrong with this marriage and she can't do anything about it. I'm guessing that if her brother's marriage does go south, or if it does turn out that he was taken advantage of, she would have to cope with even more difficult feelings like regret, sadness, anger, both at him and at his wife, and maybe a little bit at herself.

Although if she speaks up in the way that we just talked about, to your point, Jordan, I think she can largely mitigate that anger and she can feel confident that she did all she could [00:37:00] when she could, and that this is ultimately between her brother and his wife. All that to say her question might actually be more about negotiating that line between loving protection and inappropriate meddling and managing the feelings involved if she quote unquote, fails here, which is not really a failure at all.

It's not her failure. It's between, again, it's her brother's life, but it might be more about that than any specific legal remedies.

Jordan Harbinger: I think that's right. Yeah. I also wanna make room for the possibility that this woman is not after her brother's money or citizenship. That's possible too. Or that's part of the equation, but it's not the only reason she married him, and he's actually married a solid person who will also benefit tremendously in some practical ways, which of course is also fair.

After all, it sounds like they've been dating for a while, even if they did elope. But in the meantime, stay close to your brother. Keep the door open. Keep making it safe for him to talk to you. That's really the best thing you can do. And if you ever suspect coercion, fraud, something more serious, of [00:38:00] course that becomes a law enforcement matter and you'll know what to do about that.

He's lucky to have you looking out for him. I hope he makes the right choice and good luck. You can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Keep your emails concise. Try to use a descriptive subject line that makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're finding dead squirrels in your mailbox, your stepdad's got your nudes, your neighbors, or eves dropping on your therapy sessions through the wall, or you've finally tried opening your heart to another person after a lifetime of transactional relationships only to have your partner move to another country after promising you should stay whatever's got you staying up at night lately.

Hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. By the way, if you haven't signed up yet, come check out our newsletter wee bit wiser. It is basically a bite-sized gem from a past episode from me to you, delivered right to your inbox on most Wednesdays. If you wanna keep up with the wisdom from our thousand plus episodes and apply it to your life, I invite you to come check it out.

You can sign up at Jordan harbinger.com/news. Alright,

Gabriel Mizrahi: what's

Jordan Harbinger: next?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, I work [00:39:00] as an accountant in a construction company. It isn't much beyond processing invoices and billing customers. My bosses have hired two more clerks so that I can move on to a more specialized area in our billing process.

One of the new clerks took to it immediately, but the other clerk and older woman previously, the victim of Arif, a reduction in force toward the end of her career is struggling to figure out the new job. Meaning she was fired. Yep, that's right.

Jordan Harbinger: I never heard of that and I've been fired at least a handful of times.

Huh?

Gabriel Mizrahi: You've been out of the corporate world for too long. Yeah. Riff is like a real corporate term slash you haven't watched enough workplace dramas. So the letter goes on. When I was first informed that new clerks were being hired and it would be my responsibility to train them, I set out and detailed my entire process line by line and item by item three months into this training, and I am still being asked incredibly simple things like downloading files and figuring out how to open her email.

Jordan Harbinger: That's annoying. Good God, that's frustrating. Fricking Arlene over here [00:40:00] still mastering how to log into the corporate Outlook account.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You've got mail on top of this. She is incredibly neurotic about losing this job because she was blindsided by her last employer. So when something is brought up to her about a correction being needed, she will cry and tell me how she cannot lose this job. Oh, that's tough.

Jordan Harbinger: That's tough. Yeah. I'm being a little hard on Arlene, but I actually feel bad for her.

Like I'm envisioning this woman crying in the office and being like, please don't fire me. And you're just like, oh God, no. I'll show you how to log into Outlook for the eighth time. I'm sorry, I'm not sorry, but like, uh, I'm sorry.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I am at my wit's end because she will ask me the same questions every day and when I gently remind her that we've gone over this before, she will tell me that we actually haven't.

And if we have, then she doesn't remember and her notes are unreliable. I feel like I'm stuck in an eternal training Groundhog Day and there is no end in sight. How do I manage this employee? At what point do I give up [00:41:00] and or say something to management? Do you have any tips for dealing with people with failing memories in the workplace?

Signed? Try not to be mean, but hoping to convene you chops to conceive some ideas I could glean from managing this scene when this woman keeps wiping the slate clean.

Jordan Harbinger: Oof. This is a tough one. Obviously this is very frustrating for you as a manager. If I were in your shoes. Man, I'd be so annoyed and pissed.

But if Arlene actually has some kind of cognitive impairment or dementia, then you know, my heart goes out to her as well. That's gotta be very scary and debilitating. But then if you literally can't remember things and you're not able to perform your job, then I don't know, it shouldn't be working. There are other better environments for folks like this.

We wanted to run all of this by an expert, so we reached out to Joanna Tate, friend of the show and HR professional for over 20 years, and the first thing Joanna said was, yeah, she agrees. This is a very frustrating situation. She also said that as a manager, you've done everything you can to help her [00:42:00] training, being patient, documenting processes for her to refer to.

So Joanna would recommend having a one-on-one conversation with her in a conference room or a quiet office, and the conversation could go something like this. Listen, Arlene, I'd like to share with you some of my observations. I've heard you say a few things that stood out to me. For example, my notes are unreliable and I don't know how to open my email.

These are essential parts of doing your job. Please help me understand what you need from me right now so you can do your job successfully and then wait for her response. She might say she doesn't know. She might give you a direct answer. She might be a puddle of tears, whatever it is. Joanna said, that's okay if she cries, let her cry.

Have some tissues available in advance. You can stay firm, but compassionate at the same time. The point of this chat is not just to have an open conversation and to give her time to get through the crying phase, but also to put it on her shoulders to come up with a solution. The real goal, Joanna said is to get her to [00:43:00] this question.

I know this job is new. Maybe you're feeling overwhelmed. I want you to succeed. I've spent time training and giving you some tools. So what are you willing to do to learn your new responsibilities and be able to do it effectively every day? Joanna's take is you need to set the expectation that Arlene is to make progress and eventually soon do her job on her own.

The company has determined that the tasks she's responsible for are necessary for the business. It's not on you to change those responsibilities. You don't have to lower any of those standards. So after another period of time, let's say 30 days or maybe less, if her job performance just really isn't improving at all, let your manager know, or whoever needs to know, which probably includes hr.

Let them know that this is the work you've done with Arlene over this period of time. Keep simple notes on what you've done to help her, what her progress is like each week, or her lack of progress, dates of her training sessions, all that,

Gabriel Mizrahi: and on the training front, since just answering her questions over and over clearly is not [00:44:00] working.

Joanna said that she might need something else. Different visuals, maybe more organized notes in a binder or something like that. Although it sounds like you've already gone above and beyond, but there are a few more options. Also, maybe the training process needs to include you demonstrating a task for her first and then walking her through it with guidance and then having her do it by herself.

That could maybe reinforce the learning.

Jordan Harbinger: One thing I did for my parents, I know that Arlene is not your mom and you gotta, this is a corporate environment, but one thing I did was there's a program called Loom, and it works in your web browser. And what you can do is screen record something using this and then share it really easily.

So you might create a video where you log into her outlook with her or for her, and you're narrating this process the whole time the mic is on and it's go over here and you click on this and you open this, and you enter your username and password, which you know already, and then you're in your email and you can save those videos online or in a folder.

And if she needs to do stuff on mobile, the function is also built into the iPhone. I think [00:45:00] it's just called screen record, but you can save a folder of you doing these simple tasks and narrating them, and then she basically just needs to open those and she's off to the races. If she forgets what to do,

Gabriel Mizrahi: if she can remember how to open Loom.

That sounds like a great idea.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, she doesn't need to open Loom, she just needs to know where the folder with the videos is. I realize now good luck teaching her what a folder is, but I

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I hear you. I like it. Save it to the desktop.

Jordan Harbinger: There's a way, honestly, though, you make a good point, Gabriel, if we're at the point where she's like, what's a folder?

Where's the desktop? Now we're in a beginner mode with computers. This is a bigger problem. If she can't even remember basic computer usage, like that's a bigger issue.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And if she simply can't do the fundamentals of this job, then Joanna said it just might not be the right fit. HR should be able to figure out if termination is the right step or if she really does need some type of accommodation, but Joanna's strong advice to you is don't go there at all without HR guidance.

Jordan Harbinger: One last idea. I would maybe pair Arlene with one or two [00:46:00] colleagues who can answer her questions throughout the day. Keep her on track without you having to be on top of her. That's probably a little annoying for them, but it's better than you taking hours outta your day to stay on top of her and struggling to attend to your more important tasks.

This is a tough situation. I understand the stakes are high because she's like, no, please don't fire me. I really need this job. That's an intense thing to feel responsible for. I'm sorry you're dealing with this. It's no fun. I'm sorry for her too, but one way or the other, this has to get resolved. Either she gets better or she finds a better environment for her.

It's sad, but there's a kind and thoughtful way to do it and good luck. You know what else is demented? The amazing deals on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Sleep Me. I've always been pretty serious about optimizing my sleep because it affects everything.

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If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. All of the deals, discount codes and ways to support the show are searchable and clickable on the website at Jordan harbinger.com/deals.

And if [00:50:00] that doesn't work, you can email usJordan@jordanharbinger.com. We're happy to dig up codes for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show and now for the recommendation of the week. So a little meathead recommendation for you here today. My recommendation is the core power elite protein shake by Fairlife.

They have variations of this, but the ones I like, by the way, this is the best protein shake in a bottle that I've ever had. Hands down, 42 grams of protein. They have a 26 gram one, it tastes good. 42 is kind of unbeatable. Strawberry and chocolate and vanilla are the flavors they have. Each one is really good.

What I really like about these is that nothing tastes too fake. It doesn't taste too sweet. A lot of times protein, I noticed they put in a flavoring that's just like strawberry, but on steroids, chocolate, but like explosion, vanilla, but super vanilla E. These are subtle. For a guy like me who where everything is too sweet and every flavor is too strong and every smell is too strong, this [00:51:00] is just right and it's also not thick.

These aren't like, uh, you drink it and then you need something else to wash it down. It basically is kind of just like drinking milk because I believe it's mostly filtered milk with a little bit of flavoring and then they probably add some whey protein in there, but it doesn't change the consistency really.

It's just like very smooth, slightly thicker milk, but it's not smoothie thick and I really appreciate that. I actually had to buy them in bulk that you can order them on Amazon and we're gonna link to that in the show notes as well. Also, in case y'all don't know, there's a sub Reddit for the show. If you want to jump into discussions with other listeners and us about episodes, there's a lot going on there.

Search for the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. It's quite a positive place. I've actually banned a couple people recently because. You know, how about one place on the internet where people don't just like act like, how's that? And that I'd like to think is the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. So come and join us.

It's quite fun if you're a redditer. I really have a good time there. And there's a meme thread. It's a fun place to hang. All

Gabriel Mizrahi: right, next up. Hey [00:52:00] guys. For the last 18 years I've run a successful company in the healthcare field offering hearing aids and related products. I'm fortunate to have my son join the company and between the two of us, we provide amazing service to seniors in our community.

We're caring, helpful, and price competitive. That's awesome. Gotta love it. For years, I've visited senior centers in our community to provide in-home services and have tried really hard to develop relationships with the staff at the centers, which make up over half of our revenue in these centers. Staff typically move on and management philosophies change over the years.

For example, we used to be able to put up posters, advertising our services, but some centers now don't want that. We used to provide educational presentations and rec coordinators now don't see the value in scheduling these talks. It's become difficult to let residents know that we're there to help.

Meanwhile, other providers have been allowed to do these things in these centers, increasing competition. There are many centers, so the demand is there, and I know we [00:53:00] provide a great service that is cheaper than our competitors. So my son and I just need to continue to be reliable and network better. But here's my problem.

I think I'm a little too respectful. When I go to the staff at my centers, I say hi, but I don't persist or pursue them or the residents. We could connect with doctors, physiotherapists, counselors, and home care specialists in our community. But again, I always feel like I don't wanna bother people with an ask.

I want to come across as a friendly, respectful colleague, but that doesn't always get noticed. I think I'm too respectful because I'm not having any success with my connections. When these rec coordinators say that they're not interested in a presentation, I say, thank you for thinking of us, and I understand when I should probably probe a little bit more or look for a different avenue, maybe ask for a different option to reach the residents or reach out to other health professionals to share contacts or create a kind of referral program.

I'm just hesitant to make that first connection. I don't know whether it's best to start with an email or [00:54:00] drop in and say hi. I always think that it would be too inconvenient or ineffective to stop in if they're busy, or I just assume my email is just gonna get ignored and that stops me. I'm also afraid of being pushy.

For example, I have this gentleman who helps me with my tax-free savings account, and whenever he calls me, I know he's gonna ask me to contribute more each month, or he's gonna ask me to recommend people for him to contact and grow his business. It's uncomfortable to have to justify why I can't give more or won't share my friend's contacts with him.

I don't want to be that type of person. We're now looking to increase our sales and need to make lasting long-term connections that benefit both residents and us. I feel like the people I'm connecting with need to feel that there's a concrete benefit. It's important for people to look after their hearing.

Cognitive decline can actually increase when the hearing isn't looked after. Unfortunately, people don't think about hearing aids in that way. People don't even get regular hearing tests. Maybe I just have to become comfortable with the idea that I [00:55:00] might be known as that annoying hearing aid girl who comes around every couple of weeks and talks about how important it is to look after your ears.

That actually doesn't sound so bad. No. Sounds like she'd be doing a great service. Yeah, no kidding. I'm doing your Six Minute Networking course and I really appreciate all the work you and your team do to provide these resources, but I'm still stuck. Can you help with some networking suggestions? What's the difference between being pushy and being proactive?

How can I communicate these benefits to the people I need to build relationships with? How do I get over this hurdle signed? Figuring out how to score when I need to generate more? But I'm struggling to build rapport and feel comfortable having the floor.

Jordan Harbinger: Excellent question and something so many people struggle with, this is very normal, so I appreciate you reaching out.

A lot of people feel this resistance you're coming up against and they just go, oh, well I guess I'm just not one of those networking people, or, I tried this relationship stuff just doesn't work. You are willing to [00:56:00] look at this in a new way, and I really appreciate that. So a few thoughts. First off, I know that you're frustrated.

I know there's this pressure to increase sales. I hear you. That competition is increasing. That's intense. I also think that's gonna work in your favor because sometimes we need a little external pressure to force us to do things in a new way. I find it super interesting that you and your son are super helpful and friendly and price competitive.

I love that you guys have a real connection with your customers and what they truly need. Having someone looking after their hearing, their overall cognitive wellbeing. It's beautiful. I also find it interesting that other providers have been allowed to do these presentations in sales events and these centers.

Yes. And you're not, I don't know. That tells me they're getting through with these centers in a way that you are unable to do so far, which is actually good news because it means that this is possible. So let's talk about the difference between being pushy and being proactive. Again, I think this is something everyone struggles with, especially people in sales where you have to get on busy people's radars, [00:57:00] fight for their attention, get them to do something that they're not already doing.

It's hard to pinpoint the exact moment you go from, I wanna advocate for myself to, I'm a problem for this person. It's a spectrum, right? There's a middle ground where you're just a little pushy and a little proactive, and you gotta play in that territory. It also depends on who you're talking to.

People's attention spans are short. Some people don't have the bandwidth for a passionate pitch. Other people, you can feel when there's room to push more and pin 'em down and carve out something new. What I can say for sure is this. We all need to risk being a little bit of a problem sometimes. I'm putting problem in air quotes now in order to get what we want.

It's just kind of basic sales. If you're not willing to bear the tension of advocating for what you want, of convincing someone to change their mind and do something new, the healthy awkwardness of going, I totally hear you, I get it, but I know there's a better way that's gonna serve your patients even better, and I can give it to you.

And here's why. If you aren't willing to hang in that conversation, you're not gonna change your results.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:58:00] Yes, so true. When she said, maybe I just have to become comfortable with the idea that I might be known as that annoying hearing aid girl who comes around and talks about how important it's to look after your ears.

Like you heard me in the letter. I was like, yeah, be a little annoying. That's your job. But also, that's not annoying if she does that in the right spirit. I think they're gonna feel that she's coming around for a really good reason.

Jordan Harbinger: Agreed. So my strong advice to you is start experimenting with being a little pushier, and I would do this by degrees.

Just tiptoe up to this. Go a little further each time. Teach yourself how to handle those moments. See what happens. Learn from your mistakes. Adjust your pitch. Keep doing it. It's kind of like exposure therapy. You need to risk being a little annoying in order to find out that you're not actually as annoying as you think.

More importantly, I think you're gonna find that if you are a little annoying, you can survive it. That nothing terrible is gonna happen. This whole being respectful thing, it comes from a good place. You're being thoughtful. You don't wanna be a nuisance. I get it. I actually really appreciate that. But also the squeaky wheel gets the grease right?

And part the art of sales is being [00:59:00] just a little bit pushy without driving people away. And that art is unique to each person. You're gonna have to develop your own style. Some people use humor. They make the person laugh, they keep things light, and somewhere in there they make their pitch. Some people just call it out, okay, I'm gonna be annoying for 30 seconds, but it's because I love you and I love your seniors, and I love hearing aids, so hear me out.

And some people stack the deck. They build up a ton of goodwill and social capital in advance so that when they make the pitch, it's not, I need you to do me this favor, it's I've invested in you now you invest in me. Let's keep the love fest going. Some people create such a good product or service. The sales part of it is a cinch, although I think good sales is always part of it, which means being a little pushy, that's always kind of part of it too.

And by the way, part of the reason I'm being so direct with this advice is. What you think is pushy or annoying. I am gonna go out on a limb here. I'm pretty sure that is miscalibrated. You're so respectful that you'd have to go way out of your way [01:00:00] to truly be a nuisance to someone. So a good exercise for you is to take a few steps into that annoying territory and just trust you're probably nowhere near being a true problem for the other person.

If you see your results change over time, your barometer for what's actually annoying or disrespectful, that is going to start to change and recalibrate and it's going to become easier for you to get this right.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Well said, Jordan. Totally agree. I find it interesting that she's so afraid of being like that financial guy who calls her asking her for money.

I just think it's interesting that she's so afraid of being like him.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, she knows what it's like to be on the other side, and she doesn't want to come across to people that way.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Two takeaways from that. First, if that guy is putting you in an awkward spot, then he's probably not the best at this stuff himself.

He's not doing the things Jordan just described. So. An interesting exercise for you might be to ask yourself, what is he doing that makes me uncomfortable and what could he do that would make me want to talk to him and actually introduce him to my friends and get very specific about that. And then reverse engineer those [01:01:00] same techniques or styles or approaches for you and your son and give those a go.

Jordan Harbinger: Great idea. I do love that you said you don't wanna be that type of person, and I get it, but the takeaway is, I mean, don't be that person.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, don't be that guy. It's not avoid being a person who pitches a product at all. The other reason that this guy is interesting is you find it uncomfortable to say, I'm really sorry, but I can't give you more money right now.

Or, I don't want to give you my friend's email addresses. But that discomfort might itself be informed by the same qualities that make you reluctant to promote your product and take up people's time because they're both forms of conflict. Telling someone no thank you is a form of conflict and convincing someone to say yes to you is a form of conflict.

Healthy conflict though healthy conflict, appropriate conflict and necessary obviously for her job. So. This goes back to the whole exposure therapy idea. If your product is great, if your prices are great, if you guys are great, which it really sounds like you are, then this largely comes down to your willingness to lean into this healthy conflict and temporarily take a position [01:02:00] that another person might disagree with or just kind of have to deal with for a few seconds until they realize that you're actually there to provide them with something really useful, whether it's hosting these events at the centers or giving you some of their time or whatever.

But here's the really great news. You guys have such a strong connection to your customer. You're in this business because as far as I can tell, you seem to genuinely care about people's wellbeing. Again, that thing about how hearing and cognitive decline are so related, that really landed with me, and so I would say stay connected to that deeper purpose in your work and work that into these conversations.

I think what bothers you about your financial guy is that he's basically asking you to do him a favor without having earned it or inspired you to want to help him out. But if he framed it as, Hey, I love taking care of people. It's a joy to set you up for the future. If you have any friends who want the same peace of mind, I would love to chat with them too.

No pressure, but I live for this stuff. I think you would probably feel differently about him. It's the same with these centers. If you call them or you write them and you say, look, I know you guys don't usually host [01:03:00] events, or, I know you guys don't know us yet, but we have an amazing product. It's cheaper than everyone else.

We would love to take care of your seniors. And by the way, if they don't take care of their hearing, it's not just losing their hearing. They often decline cognitively. They miss out on life. And we love helping people live the fullest lives possible. That is the reason that we're in this business. And if you mean that, of course it's gonna be a lot harder for these people to ignore you or to get frustrated with you because what, are they gonna get annoyed with you for wanting to help elderly people avoid dementia?

Like wanting them to be able to still talk with their grandkids? I don't think so.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, they'd feel like a-holes for that. And if you really connect to your passion for that in these conversations, I agree. I think that's gonna do wonders for her pitch. That might also help with some of the anxiety. 'cause then when you have to be pushy, you're not just being pushy so you can make more money, you're being pushy in service of this greater cause, and it takes the focus off of you and it makes it about this larger thing.

As you can see, I love talking about relationships and networking. I even go around giving a whole talk about this at conferences and [01:04:00] companies and stuff and what you're describing, not wanting to bother people, feeling like you're inconvenient. This is one of the most common problems people talk to me about at these events, and I can almost guarantee you that those assumptions, they probably go back a long way.

So many people get the message early on that their needs are inconvenient or too much, or that they need to be low maintenance in order to be okay, and you play that script out into adulthood. One of the ways it shows up is in this fear of taking up space with people trying to convince strangers to give you a chance.

One of the exercises I give during my talk is asking for help because it's all about giving help, building social capital. And then I say, Hey, okay, now once you do this, I want you to ask somebody else for help with a need that you have. And a lot of people, they cringe and they're like, oh my gosh, how am I gonna do that?

Or they email me later. So one of the cheats that I have for this is instead of asking for help for something that you need, ask for help on behalf of someone else. So like maybe you're not the type to say, Hey, [01:05:00] neighborhood kid or neighborhood adult, can you come over and help me with my computer? I don't really know how to set up the wifi in my new house.

Whatever it is. You might be like, I don't wanna do that. I don't wanna bother people. But if you had to ask for that same help for your mother, you would probably do it in a heartbeat, right? You'd call some kid in the neighborhood, some adult, and be like, my mom, she's 80, she doesn't know how to do this.

Would you mind plugging in her router for her and setting that up? And you'd probably find that much easier. So when you're making your pitch, remember you're not just like, how do I sell hearing aids? You are thinking, how do I get this person to understand that this is in service of their own residents?

I'm trying to help them. I'm trying to let this person understand that I am offering help, not trying to take something in a way that's suave. There's some real vulnerability. That, but it's also a super powerful way to invite someone to invest in you, identify with you, get on board with your thing, and before you know it, there's good will flowing in both directions.

But knowing how to ask for help, that is an art too. It's an art and also a [01:06:00] capacity. But at the end of the day, the only thing that matters is that you give this a try and teach yourself that it's okay to be a little bit pushy. Don't wait until some magical time where you don't feel this conflict anymore.

Just do it and keep doing it and keep learning and refining and see what happens. I have a feeling we're gonna crack this and see some great results. Please write us, let us know how it goes, and good luck. Go back and check out the episodes with Mike Feldstein and Eric Cole and of course, our skeptical Sunday on Black Friday.

If you haven't heard those yet, show notes and transcripts on the website, advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show, all at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn, Gabe's on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi. This show is created in association with PodcastOne.

My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tadas Sidlauskas, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. I am a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer, so consult a legitimate professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. Ditto Corbin Payne and Joanna Tate.[01:07:00]

Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.

Fame looks glamorous until you've realized it costs the everyday freedoms that most of us take for granted.

JHS Trailer: Even as a little kid watching Saturday Night Live and watching Eddie Murphy and Mike Myers and all these guys sneaking downstairs with my best friend Nick, and we would watch these things and then recite them for hours and reenact them well, I'm so grateful that I had such a specific passion.

I can't totally explain it, but it was something I had and was lucky enough to follow. I wanted so badly to be on Saturday Night Live or the Daily Show, and I prepared relentlessly. It's why I moved to New York. It's why I started doing standup comedy and started doing improv comedy. It's why I joined the [01:08:00] community and I had this goal, and then I got on the Daily Show, and I had never thought beyond that.

My career wasn't handed to me, but it's just important to look back with gratitude at some of the things that fell into place. It was the realization that the work never ends. That was a valuable lesson to learn on one of my first major gigs because, well, the office happened, and then the hangover. I still have to hustle.

I gotta keep hustling. Movies are very intoxicating because it's so all consuming. It's very easy to detach from a lot of things in your life, whether they're difficult or good. Also, as an A DHD person, I thrive in hyper focus. So when I get into that mindset, it's like I'm in go mode and it's thrilling.

But there's a cost for

Jordan Harbinger: more with Ed Helms on the Hidden Cost of Fame and the chaos of his career. Check out episode 1146 of The Jordan Harbinger [01:09:00] Show.