109: The Five Keys to Being Unforgettable | Deep Dive

Transcript for The Five Keys to Being Unforgettable | Deep Dive (Episode 109)

Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger, and of course, I'm here with my producer, Jason DeFillippo. Now, one of the most common questions I get in my inbox is how to make people remember you. How do I stand out? How do I become unforgettable? Well, we all want to be remembered. We all want to feel important enough to stick. It's human. And we've all heard the standard advice, be engaging, say something interesting, wear something unique. Look, the problem is by itself. That stuff doesn't really work in a vacuum. Sure, appearance, technique, they play a role in being memorable, but if there's no substance behind it, it can actually backfire.

[00:00:35] So today we're here with Gabriel Mizrahi. He's the head of editorial at Advanced Human Dynamics, and he's been on the show a bunch of times, of course. We'll explore authenticity, not the buzz-wordy cheesy Internet version, but the real deal and we'll contrast it with vulnerability. No, we're not going to ask you to go around a table and share your greatest fear and you're not going to stand on some street corner with a blindfold on. Basically, if you've seen it in a YouTube video, we're going to call BS on it and give you some real options for developing legit authenticity. We'll also dive into vulnerability itself. How can this be used without us using it to use others? You know what I'm talking about, the old fake vulnerability to get people to like me trick. That stuff doesn't work, it's likely going to blow up in your face. And today, we'll show you how this really works and how you can make it a practice that helps create real connections that actually last, and last but not least, we'll outline the concepts of generosity, intrigue, and contrast. We'll show you what they mean, how to develop them to serve others and not just yourself, and how to deploy them so that you can become truly unforgettable.

[00:01:39] I think this is one of our better Deep Dives yet and I'm excited to hear what you think of it all once you start to put this stuff into practice. Of course, if you want to know how I managed to book all these great people and manage my relationships using systems and tiny habits, check out our Six-Minute Networking Course. It's free. It's over at jordanharbinger.com/course. And don't forget we have worksheets for today's episode so you can make sure you solidify your understanding of the key takeaways here from Gabriel Mizrahi. That link is in the show notes at jordanharbinger.com/podcast. All right, let's talk about how to be unforgettable.

[00:02:15] A common question that I get all the time is how do I stand out, how do I make myself one forgettable, and usually people are referring to this in terms of at a job fair, in an interview, and the advice I used to give that I still sometimes give depending on context, are things like, “Oh, make a comment about this. Help them do that. Send a funny follow up email.” The problem is that stuff in a vacuum does not actually work that well. It's really kind of like an ice cream sundae except no ice cream. You'd just have like the sauce and a cherry floating in it and it doesn't really do the trick. And so I wanted to get into some of the principles of what actually makes us unforgettable that makes us, I should say memorable, and goes beyond the whole, like make a comment on their cufflinks type of advice that you would see on a click bait article.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:03:06] Right, right. Because appearance and technique definitely do play a role in being memorable, but if there isn't real substance behind that technique or that appearance, then the impression will only last so long because it's the classic sizzle no steak.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:03:22] Yes, yes, it's almost steak, I like that. I think this is an important concept because people want to make sure that they stand out and you should be doing that, but the way to do that -- unfortunately, the way to do this well, the things that get people hired, it's not the, “Yeah, that's the guy who told me about the great steak plays down the street.” This person was likable. I remember this person because of the interaction being positive in some way or being a little bit of a hair's breadth more intimate than usual.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:03:52] Yes, so what does make us unforgettable? I think you and I have talked about this for years, but there seem to be three or four main qualities and what's interesting about these qualities, which we're going to unpack on this episode, is that they're not quick fixes. They're not Band-Aids, they're not things that you can pick up off the shelf. I'm going to wear this jacket and people will like me, or I'm going to memorize these statements and use them in a way that people will remember me for or whatever. Like those things don't work because they're so easy. These things are harder, but they're more meaningful. So they're worth exploring and they're worth working on over time. And I think the first one is authenticity.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:04:30] Yes.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:04:30] The quality of being yourself, of being authentically you. That ironically is the one competitive advantage that everybody shares. Like everybody can only be themselves fully. We spend a lot of time not being ourselves because we think that if we're more like this idea of who we are, whether that's a certain kind of professional at the job fair or a certain kind of person who would be attractive on a first date, that that would somehow be more compelling than being fully who we are. But every single person who has gotten what they wanted has had to embrace who they really are and there's a reason that that works, and the reason is that authenticity is inherently compelling.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:05:10] I actually -- what a lot of people are taking away, they're like, “God, this is crap. Just be yourself.” “Yeah, I've heard that advice before. This sucks.” But we don't follow it very well. I remember when I was interviewing for law jobs that there were a couple that I didn't get and one was really memorable. I didn't get it because I was taken out to lunch by these two junior associates and they're like, “What do you like to do?” And I was like, “Crap, what do I say?” And I was like, “Oh, I like reading.” And they're like, “Oh, what are you reading?” I was like, “Oh crap. I read a lot of stuff online,” and they're like “Yeah, about what?” And I just was trying to censor myself so much because I was trying to feel out what they wanted to hear. And they're like, “What do you -- do you go out? Where do you like to go out? What's your favorite city? Have you traveled a lot?” They were really trying to drag this stuff of me. And eventually I thought, I'm not getting this job. We're eating -- they're so bored. They're looking at each other weird. I knew that this was going horribly, horribly wrong. And then eventually they're like, “Do you just do like to ever just go out for a drink?” And I was like, “Yeah, I like going out and drink.” And they're like, “Oh finally.” That's what she said. She goes, “Finally, all right.”

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:06:17] Something real.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:06:17] And then they called it early. They were just like, because even, that didn't crack me open. I just kept trying. I was like, “Oh no, now they think I'm this way. I got to act more responsible.” And I just kept doing that. And again, I was in my mid-20s, but I wanted that job. It didn't happen. I mean I must have gotten just like D minus grades [indiscernible] [00:06:36].

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:06:36] The lesson stuck.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:06:37] The lesson stuck. And that was a tough one for me because it wasn't like, “Oh, I need to be authentic from now on. I'll just switch that on.” It was hard because I wanted an outcome, and the outcome in my own mind was don't let them see whatever you're just going to have out there. You got to tailor this image of yourself or you're not going to get what you want.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:07:00] Totally, yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:07:00] Which is the job, which is the opposite of the just be yourself advice. And then of course, there's people who go, “I'm just going to be myself.” And they lean so far into the, “I don't care about anything” that they're obnoxious. And you're like, “Is this really how you act all the time?” “No, but I've got to show that I don't care.” It's like, well that's not authentic either, so where the hell is the balance?

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:07:19] Right. Well, a couple of things about that. So the first thing is that I think when people hear authenticity, they think that it means that you can't or shouldn't get better.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:07:30] Yeah. Or it's like radical honesty. Like your hair is ugly.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:07:33] Exactly. Which is also not smart. Authenticity doesn't come at the expense of being sensitive or being aware or being thoughtful about who you are and how you're coming across. You can always get better, you should get better. But what's cool about authenticity is that it can actually make those deficiencies work in your favor, and that's where a lot of humor and playfulness comes in. I remember, it's funny, was the story you just told during law school interviews, I mean law firm interviews.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:08:01] Yes, it was law firm interview.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:08:02] So I remember in college also going through the recruiting process for my first job and I remember being at a couple of the first, what do they call those? Like a company presentations or whatever. When the firms would come to campus and put on a little --

Jordan Harbinger: [00:08:14] On campus interviews.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:08:15] It was on campus interviews, but there was also, I can't remember what they called it, but it was, yeah, company presentations or whatever. And then they would give like a 30 minute spiel about the company, why it's awesome and why you should work there, and then you would just hang out and talk to the people. And I remember when I was still learning about jobs in the field and all this stuff, I would chat with these people and I remember talking to one associate at one of these firms, and I don't remember what I said, but it was like kind of a lame question. It was like, “So do your clients ever, I don’t know like need you to tell them stuff they don't want to hear or something?” And these are consulting firms. So she was like, “Yeah, that's literally the job.” And then I just had this moment of like, okay, you've put your foot in your mouth, you've stumbled into a silly question. You either can like double down on this and keep being a bonehead or you can run away, which would look super weird also and that's not going to help, or we can just own this moment and talk about it. So I was like, “Was that the worst question you've ever heard at a job fair or?” And she was like, “Ah, no, I wouldn't say it's the worst, but it was up there,” and I was like, “Yeah, I'm going to take the L on that one.” And we like laughed about it and I ended up getting an interview there.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:09:24] That’s good.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:09:24] And I think, I don't remember if that was one of the ones that I ended up getting an offer from, but I went far, farther than I just should have.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:09:30] Right.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:09:31] Further than I should've been the process given that stupid question.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:09:33] Yeah. That would've been like, “I have to go to the bathroom.”

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:09:35] Goodbye.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:09:36] I'm not coming back to this room.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:09:38] But what's the difference between that and what happened? The differences that an authentic response to a moment like that is to say, “Yeah, I did that. I said that, that's part of me right now.” I'm not going to make that mistake again, but in this moment I'm just going to talk about it. I'm just going to own it, because otherwise the shame of it and the embarrassment and the [indiscernible][00:09:57] of it is going to determine the whole experience.

[00:10:00] And I really felt, I remember feeling in that conversation that's something shifted because even though I had made a quote unquote mistake with the question, I ended up accidentally showing her a very human side. And if I had left the conversation or tried to defend the question, it would have shut the door again on that human moment. But instead it was like, “Oh, you're 21 year old college kid. You don't know everything. That's okay.” And I know now that you know that you don't know everything which is a quality, by the way, that I really like in my associates. So if the next five minutes go pretty well in this conversation, why wouldn't I want to interview you? Sure. And I think that's why being yourself, for lack of a better term, can actually be a game changer.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:10:44] I think also there's this human empathy response where somebody says, “So do you ever have to tell your clients anything they don't want to hear?” And you're like, “Yeah, that's literally the entire job.” And you go, “Oh my gosh! Well that was the dumbest question that I've ever asked. Is that the dumbest one you've ever heard?” And she goes, “No.” And then thinks about a time when she goes, I remember when I asked about this other thing and that was so stupid, how stupid I felt, and that's exactly how this person feels right now, and you feel empathy for them. And everyone's had that experience. But if the person goes, “No, I mean, what I'm trying to say, and you clearly just misunderstood me, was this other thing.” And the person's going, “Oh great. I'm going to have to deal with this.” Every time they make a mistake, they're going to try to flip it around as not a mistake or I just misunderstood, I don't want to work with that. There's really no way to come back from that instead of owning it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:11:38] A 100 percent. And the interesting thing about empathy is that it's often a two way street. So when you empathize with somebody, there's usually a window for them to empathize with you in some way. So in that example, actually in your example as well, like you have a sensitivity to what the other person is experiencing, and then when you let that come through, then they have a sensitivity for what you're experiencing, and then suddenly you're like relating like actual human beings, not the roles that are determined by the situation. That would apply to a job fair, that would apply to an interview, that would apply to a first date, where the conventions of the exchange tend to dictate how we behave and who we think we have to be. But you can break through that by just being a person, and the best way to be a person is to be authentic. But what you're making me realize is that when someone's being the truest version of themselves with us, we tend to feel like we can be the truest version of ourselves with them. That is a really powerful dynamic, and that's why authenticity is so infectious, and it's really hard to forget somebody who made you feel that way.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:12:42] Is inherently attractive, not necessarily in the relationshipy type of sense.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:12:48] A 100 percent.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:12:48] But we love -- I love, I should say when somebody says something that's very real and human and I feel like, “Ah yes, I can map this to a moment in my own life.”

 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:13:00] Right.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:13:01] When they're trying to be -- when you're trying to be bulletproof when someone else is trying to be bulletproof, it just we go, “Oh, I can't really relate to this other than the fact that you're clearly trying to be bulletproof, which is not the best way to handle this.” So we actually push people away from us, because we're like, “No, my social mask is intact.” “Look, I'm reinforcing it. I'm stapling it even harder on my face right now.” Instead of going, “Oh yeah, I just embarrassed myself in front of a group of 20 people.”

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:13:26] And the fact that so few people know that it's okay to be authentic in that way, actually works in your favor because the fact that you don't see authenticity very often means that we are so primed to respond to it. I think that was probably part of what was happening in these professional settings, in these job fairs is that you don't -- that's not a setting where you expect people to be very much like themselves.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:13:47] That's true.

 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:0:13:48] So when someone is that way, even a little bit, even a tiny bit or even like a small moment, when that person goes home at the end of the night and fills out a spreadsheet of all of the prospective interviewees, which is what we used to do at the firms that I worked with, like you have to go back and be like, “Who are those five or six people that stood out?” You're going to remember the person who seemed like a human being, who opened up a little bit and made you feel like you could be a human being. You're not going to remember the one who's like, “I have studied all the textbooks. I know how to behave. I will not admit my mistakes.” Because those people don't -- they just don't stick around in your memory, so.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:14:21] I agree. I think one of the jobs that I actually got, which was at a firm that had a lot of local New Yorkers in it. He said, “Where else have you been interviewing? You don't have to tell me. In fact, I'm not probably not even supposed to ask you, but I'm curious.” And I said, “But I'm not really sure that I want to work at those places because a lot of the people that I've been talking to seem to like using a lot of big words in one sentence, if you know what I mean.” And he started laughing because he goes, “Yep, that's very a Wall Street lawyer kind of thing to do huh?” And I said, “Yeah, I really don't want to have to look at a dictionary or at thesaurus every morning before I go to work to figure out if I can impress somebody else in the elevator,” and him and I had a good laugh about this. He was a Italian guy from Brooklyn, a lot of the other lawyers there were. And I felt really comfortable in that environment, so I felt comfortable saying that, and that to me was a good sign. And I remember after I got hired, he actually had said something to HR about that comment and he said, yeah, one of the things he said, he's funny, he said something about not having to look at a dictionary. And that ended up being a thing that he had remembered about that. And the reason that that was important was not because I made some funny joke, the joke, the idea behind the joke was I don't really want to have to play this game where everyone's trying to look smarter than the other person every single day because I'm here to get work done. And that was the culture they were trying to develop.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:15:45] So that quality you're describing is a gift, I think. It's a gift to yourself because you don't have to pretend to be something you're not, and it's a gift to the people you interact with, whether it's a hiring manager or a first date or a new friend you meet at a dinner party or whatever, like that is a gift and we don't tend to forget gifts very easily, and the more rare it is to get one, the easier it is to remember. So I think that's the first thing to keep in mind, but a lot of what we're talking about is starting to get into another very memorable quality, which is vulnerability, and they're very connected, right?

 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:16:16] They are.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:16:17] Like authenticity and vulnerability are really connected.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:16:21] You're listening to the Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest, Gabriel Mizrahi on our Deep Dive on how to be unforgettable. We'll be right back.

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Jordan Harbinger: [00:19:35] We talked about vulnerability a lot in a previous Deep Dive, but I want to of course touch on vulnerability and talk about why it's different than authenticity. So why don't you tell us what vulnerability is in this context, and then let's draw a line between that in authenticity.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:19:50] Sure. Honestly, I think this can get a little philosophical. We don't have to like worry too much about the terms, but if authenticity is the quality of just being yourself, then I think vulnerability is the act of sharing yourself with another person. So authenticity and vulnerability often go hand in hand, but when you are vulnerable, you are sharing a real part of yourself with someone else. It's the act of authenticity in action. It's what we were talking about at the job fair. It's what we're talking about when you have a human moment in an unexpected place.

[00:20:23] When you find yourself in the presence of both of those things, when you find yourself talking to somebody who's being authentic, lead themselves and vulnerable, the experience tends to leave a very deep impression. Just like the guy who was interviewing you did because he was like, think about it. He was like, “This guy wasn't pretending to be some smarty pants, like every other person who came in here.” And he also wasn't afraid to let me know it, that is just a classic authenticity plus vulnerability. And what happened at the end of the day, you're the one he mentioned to HR.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:20:53] Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm sure it was me and a few other people, but there were of course people who didn't get the job there because nobody wants to work with somebody who's always trying to be in job interview mode and be impressive. In theory though, it was a mistake like textbook wise, being too authentic maybe in that particular context could have been dangerous, but I think he appreciated the risk as well.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:21:16] Oh, but yes.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:21:17] Is that makes sense?

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:21:17] Totally. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. But also what you're touching on is context and we did talk about this and the other Deep Dive. I highly recommend you guys listen to it because it was a great conversation about this topic and I don't want to repeat anything we talked about, but context really matters. If you were interviewing at Merriam Webster, that would've been a disaster.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:21:34] Yeah. Yeah. I don't want to have to look at a dictionary. You do know that we manufacture dictionaries, sir?

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:21:38] Sir. Right.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:21:39] Yeah. I hate those.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:21:40] Yeah, I hate those. Can you guys just keep it real simple because I don't want to think about words.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:21:43] Right.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:21:44] No, but there are other jobs where it also might've been a little bit inappropriate. For example, if you were trying to get a job as a copy editor or a fact checker at the New York Times, that's not a good thing to say. But if you're working in an environment, if you're interviewing for a job where honesty, basic intelligence, decent good hard work, not pretending to be anything other than what you are, if it doesn't matter to the job, if those things matter, then that's a great authentic moment. But that doesn't mean being authentic or being vulnerable comes at the expense of being aware. That's the important thing. Also, on a very related note, all vulnerability is not created equal, so there is such thing as bad vulnerability. Like in an interview, you could open up about the trip you took last year with your mom on a road trip before she moved away and how much you miss her. Like that could be a sweet moment if it were appropriate, but that could also become very quickly become oversharing, like shares a bad version of vulnerability. The bad version of vulnerability can make you just as memorable as the good version, but not for the reasons you want.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:22:48] For all the wrong reasons. Isn't that the guy that started crying in Pete's office, some of that is missing his mom. I don't want this guy around.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:22:55] I can’t put this guy in front of clients. No. There's a fine line between opening up and oversharing between being honest about who you are and highlighting your insecurities between acting off the cuff and being, I don't know, acting inappropriately, for lack of a better word. But that's why vulnerability requires more calibration, I think, and a stronger intention to work in our favor. We talk about this in the Deep Dive, don't want to repeat it, but it's worth keeping in mind that even though this quality will make you memorable, it can make you memorable in a good way or a bad way, and you can be authentic without being overly vulnerable.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:23:34] And context is the way that we decide how to calibrate those things.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:23:37] Exactly. Context and motivation and all the good stuff we talked about on our Deep Dive.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:23:41] All right.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:23:42] The next important quality that does make people very memorable, and this is actually one of my favorites because it's so near and dear to our hearts and the show, is generosity. So I know you talk a lot about generosity as one of the pillars of social capital and good networking.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:23:56] That's right.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:23:57] Being willing to generate value and create relationships and to give people what they need when they need it without an expectation of immediate return.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:24:06] Exactly, yeah. It's also one of the best ways to be memorable because when you give someone something that they need, especially in the way that they need it, whether that's an introduction or a piece of information or help, or just like emotional support or a conversation at the right moment, you go from being just a person to being an act of generosity, and it's really hard to forget meaningful acts of generosity.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:24:31] So what does generosity and how does it figure into the idea of being memorable? Because I think a lot of people are like, “Oh, well yeah, I mean I'll pay for lunch.” That's not really what we're talking about here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:24:41] Yeah. Well of course, there's more meaningful generosity and less meaningful generosity. But I think that's what's so interesting about your approach to relationship building, which is that it's not about going overboard trying to connect everybody with the eight or 10 most important contacts you have, or like inviting them to lunch and being sure that you're the one who pays. I mean those things could be meaningful if they're tied to what somebody really, really wants or needs. But meaningful generosity I think is about understanding what the other person could use the most right now. And that could be something as simple as, “Oh, you're going to New York for vacation.” Okay, number one, best sandwich of my life. I'm going to send you the name of this place. That's a really small act of generosity. But if it's tied to this person's experience in New York, it could end up being like a huge part of their trip. Or you could say, my friend Cheryl, who by the way is awesome. She reminds me a lot of you, I think you guys would get along really well. I'm going to introduce you. Do you have 20 minutes to hang out with somebody new in New York? Yeah. Great. I'm going to put you guys in touch. Those things, again, they're quite small, but if they come from a place of really understanding what the other person wants or needs, then they elevate the exchange from just, “I'm doing something for you,” which can be very strategic and very self-interested. Two, “I'm thinking about you and your experience.” I want you to have this, whether it's a sandwich or a person or a place or whatever it is, and if that thing is as meaningful as you think it is, then that person will remember you. It's really as simple as that.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:26:12] I liked this idea because it does go along with one of my go-to tactical reasons or ways I should say, of being quote unquote unforgettable or at least more memorable in a job fair situation. Looking at the idea that most of these recruiting staff are junior level. They're sent to Ann Arbor, Michigan or whatever to recruit people from a campus. Now if they went to school there, cool, whatever, but half the time they've never been to Michigan. This is their first four way there. They came in with their little folding displays and stack of brochures and cards, and like slime with the company logo and the container or whatever it is.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:26:48] You painted such a good picture of like on campus recruiting.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:26:51] Right, yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:26:51] Totally.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:26:51] This is an iPhone battery that kind of works and the last like 30 minutes.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:26:56] Here's my carry on and my double deluxe bed at the Ramada.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:26:58] Yes. And it has this little unrolled bubble display with the company logo on it, and most of the time these folks are going to go to dinner in their hotel or at the crappy like Ranch Horn Restaurant next door to the hotel and you can say “Look, before you go.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:27:14] Not a real place.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:27:15] It is.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:27:17] That was a little too specific you made up.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:27:17] It's like an ‘80s chain or ‘70s chain. The often I'll say, “Look, if you have time on your way back, go to Zingerman's deli. It's the best place around here, especially because you're expensing those don't get stuck going back towards best buy and hit TGIFriday's unless you love that place. Try to hit this other place beforehand. Then when you do your email follow-up, you can say, I really hope you got a chance to trout Zingerman's, and they'll be like, “Yes I did,” or “I didn't, but I looked at the menu, it looks amazing. I'm going to go tomorrow before we leave.” That's more memorable because it does involve generosity. You're not showing up to Zingerman's to meet with them. You're not like “Nice cuff links. My great grandfather had a pair of those passed down through the ages,” and he's like, “Yeah, I got these at the Rail at Nordstrom.” I'm pretty sure you're lying. So this works and it's very small. It's a very small token of generosity and it's one of my favorite quote unquote tactics because it's so simple and because it's usually greatly appreciated. Otherwise, they're just using Yelp or they forget to do that and they go, “Ugh, I can Uber to TGIFriday’s. I passed one of those on the way back to the Ramada.”

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:28:22] Yeah, and it's also interesting because you're kind of playing a different game. I don't love that word because it sounds so strategic and it can be, let's just call that out. I mean there's a version of what you're talking about that is a bit smarmy, that's kind of self-interested, whatever. But I would rather play that quote unquote game than the game of like me, I need this job. I'm the best young professional you'll ever find. I know everything and I know every correct answer and question that you, like that's the game most people are playing and there's a role for that. Obviously, you should be prepared. Obviously, you want to be a desirable candidate, but the generosity tactic is coming at the relationship from such a more interesting place from a much more interesting place. And it makes the exchange so much more interesting and meaningful and probably more effective because like you pointed out, when you follow up, do you want to follow up by saying, hey, in your head you're saying, “I really hope you remember me. I'm the guy who wore the blue button down shirt with the Dockers and asked all three of the correct.”

Jordan Harbinger: [00:29:24] I had yellow bow tie, I wear the yellow bow tie.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:29:26] I wear the yellow bow tie, which you know, might conjure up an image, but if they didn't feel something when they talked to you, if they are not like, “Oh, I would totally be down to like work long hours with this person in nine months from now.” If they didn't have that connection to you, then all of that stuff just doesn't really go as far as people think it does. But if you're the one who took an extra moment to be like, “Oh, you don't have dinner plans. Listen, I'm going to save you a ton of time and I'm going to send you somewhere great. Let's talk about it tomorrow. I need to know if you got the pastrami sandwich.” You know what I mean?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:29:53] Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:29:53] Like that's a human connection.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:29:57] You're listening to the Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest, Gabriel Mizrahi, and our Deep Dive on How to be Unforgettable. We'll be right back after this.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:30:05] This episode is also sponsored by Gusto. If you have a small business or you know someone who does, you probably know that small business owners wear a lot of hats and some of those hats are totally great, but some like filling in taxes, running payroll, for example, not so great, anything to get rid of that, and that's where Gusto comes in. Gusto makes payroll taxes and HR really easy for small businesses. Fast, simple payroll processing, benefits handled, and expert HR support all in one place. Gusto automatically pays and files your federal state and local taxes so you don't have to worry about it. Plus they make it easy to add on health benefits and even 401Ks for your team. Those old school clunky payroll providers just were not built for the way modern small businesses worked. It's all enterprise anarchy over there, but Gusto is, so let them handle one of your many hats. You have better things to do, take it from me, and our listeners get three months free when they run their first payroll. So try a demo and see for yourself at gusto.com/jordan. That's gusto.com/jordan.

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[00:32:54] Thanks for listening and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers is what keeps us on the air to learn more and get links to all the great discounts you just heard, visit jordanharbinger.com/advertisers. And now for the conclusion of our Deep Dive on How to be Unforgettable with Gabriel Mizrahi.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:33:11] One element of generosity that I just remembered. I didn't get this job, but I did get flown to New York for the follow-up interviews yet another job that I did not get a when I was in law school. I remember going and doing that set of interviews and thinking along with many other times, this is not going super well and I know what they were looking for and it was not me. And I remember at one point, one of the hiring partners or maybe as a senior level associate. I said, “I don't think you're really looking for me and I don't think I'm really looking for you and I really apologize because I wanted this to be a good fit.” And you could just tell there was just relief on their face because they were like, “Oh good, I don't have to pretend that we all like each other and then send you this weird rejection email later.” And what I ended up doing, and this is just, this was my intuition at the time and 20-20 hindsight, was an act of generosity that actually worked really well in my favor. I referred them to a friend of mine who I thought was, would be an awesome fit for the firm. A person who was not like me in any way, and also had different types of interests and was much more, they had like a broey sports culture in the firm, and I was absolutely not like that. But I refer to a buddy of mine, he went for an interview there, he got an offer. I don't think he ended up working there. I know he didn't actually end up working there. He did get an offer from that firm. And the guys there remembered me for having made that introduction, and because of the fact that I was not a fit but still made that introduction, there is almost no scenario in which somebody who is being considered for a position says, “Hey, you should also consider this other person who's probably more qualified than me or a better fit.”

And in sales, some of the best salesman, and you'll see this in sales books written by people who've actually been there, done that, not like keyboard jockey sales authors. They'll refer a competitor if the competitors' product is better for that particular lead. And that is one, unheard of, and two, an enormous act of generosity that also builds trust.

[00:35:13] So imagine, imagine you're selling something and you go, “Dang, you know I'm selling Burger King but this is a fit from McDonald's.” And you refer that particular type of product over the gun. Obviously it's not going to be fast food, but you're selling widgets and they need something else. That type of referral builds an immense amount of trust because what's in it for you? Nothing you actually stand to lose, but it shows that you're prioritizing their needs.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:35:37] Yes.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:35:37] And that type of generosity is unheard of.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:35:40] A 100 percent. It means so much more. And it's interesting is that in those moments, you stop playing for your own team exclusively and you start playing for their team, which is a mindset you can carry with you wherever you go, and hopefully you can do both. But in those moments, if there's nothing in it for you or it's just not a fit, why not help them? It doesn't make any sense. That's a really good point. And I bet that that relationship extended way past recruiting after that, you were probably like in touch with these people, I'm guessing.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:36:06] I do remember people who did get jobs there and I stayed in touch with them, and I remember meeting their coworkers months, months, months, months later, maybe even two years later for meals and things like that. And those people still remembered me. It wasn't because of the generosity, I don't know. It could have just been they had excellent memories, but I do remember that they had brought that up so they remembered that event, and that's a big deal. Now had I spent my career in big law, I think that this generosity and this type of networking would've carried over into deeper relationships. But I bring that with me into my current career here on the Jordan Harbinger Show at Advanced Human Dynamics, because that type of generosity is important. If someone says, “Oh, I'm looking for this type of training.” If we don't do that at Advanced Human Dynamics, I'll refer them to someplace else that does. And that is more important than getting the sale short term. Last but not least though, intrigue, I think is one that people go, “Oh my gosh! This is what I was talking about.” Because it seems almost like it could be a little bit hacky, but it doesn't have to be.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:37:09] No, it doesn't have to be. I recently read this principle that I can't stop thinking about, which is that humans are very comfortable with ignorance but they hate feeling deprived of information. I think about that a lot. I think that explains a lot of good writing, good speaking like everything. It kind of explains why we're curious about anything. So if you were at that job fair, I'm going to keep going back to that because I think it's an interesting setting and you look across the room and there's one guy wearing a purple bow tie. Then you will have a little bit of curiosity about that person. I think it's inherently curious because you're saying, “I see that you wear a purple bow tie, but I don't know why,” or “I don't know what kind of person you are who thinks that that would be an interesting move.”

Jordan Harbinger: [00:37:54] But I can guess what kind of person you are bow tie guy.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:37:57] Well if that person, if purple bow tie comes up to an associate later and has a conversation with them and is boring or uninteresting or pompous, then the bow tie doesn't matter anymore. If anything that worked against you because you're like, “Oh, I see.”

Jordan Harbinger: [00:38:11] The T-bag with a bow tie.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:38:11] Exactly.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:38:12] You’re that guy.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:38:13] Or you were trying to compensate or whatever it is, but if you're purple bow tie guy, and you've created the question in somebody's mind, why did you wear a purple bow tie? And then you come up and have a great conversation, then that is the best version of intrigue. So I think there is a non-hacky, non-black hat version of making people curious, but not in a way that's manipulative or creepy but in a way that plays with people's desire to understand you and understand the world without having all the information presented at once.

[00:38:44] I'll give you a very concrete example along. Let me, I'm trying to think of how long that, maybe six, eight years ago, I met this guy named Sam. If Sam is listening, he's going to be laughing his ass off right now because I don't know if he meant to do this, but I have not forgotten it since. We met at a dinner party, it was one of those dinner parties, which is hilarious because we've been talking about that a lot lately of where everybody goes around and introduces themselves, and everybody basically said, name, job title, basic job description. Sam gets up and says, if I recall correctly, he goes, “My name is Sam, and I buy and sell dead magazines.” And then sat down, and I could feel in the room. Everybody was like, “What the hell does that mean? I don't know what that means.” Like I know enough to sort of get that he's somehow involved in like publications and acquiring them, but like why buy and sell dead magazines? Why dead magazines? I want to know more about that. He created curiosity in everybody else. The reason though that it stuck out in my mind is that we ended up hanging out after dinner was over, and he was the coolest guy, the smartest dude. He knew the magazine industry better than anybody, and he loved finding magazines that were in trouble, buying them, turning them around and selling them.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:40:03] He's got an easy job finding magazines that are in trouble now.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:40:06] Yeah, that's true.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:40:07] The other part, not so sure. The [indiscernible] [00:40:08] part.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:40:08] This was like kind of in the middle of the apocalypse, so he was doing something interesting, interesting time. but what stuck out to me about this is that he knew that if he gave away the candy shop, if he went on like a 92nd spiel about everything that he does in his job, A, he would probably be a little bit annoying because nobody cared yet that, that was what he did. But also he gave us the gift of wondering more about what you did and then letting us ask him for the rest of the information, which created an opportunity to like connect with him. And then when he answered the questions, he could answer them in a way that addressed what we were curious about. Like we could project onto his description whatever we wanted. That's the best kind of intrigue in my opinion.

[00:40:51] So it comes down to I think, controlling information and just being aware of how much information you put out there, and this is a skill that takes a long time and it's different for every person. But if you give too little, you can fail to peak somebody's interest because you haven't created any questions in their mind. But if you give too much, you can also fail to meet their interest because you've answered every possible question in advance.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:41:15] Right, right, or if you, I suppose if you make it too technical, too jargony, you don't create that curiosity because even though people don't know what you mean, they're also not interested in finding out the answer.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:41:26] Right.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:41:26] Right.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:41:27] Totally.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:41:27] So there's that sort of awkward third wheel, which is I think where most people's introductions fall. “Oh yeah, I'm in a risk management for multinational institutions.” Eh, you know? But if you say something like, “I insure us companies in case they're sister companies do something super shady overseas. It's like, “What kind of companies are doing super shady stuff?” What a company is do overseas, shady?

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:41:52] Yeah, what’s going on? Like what do they need your help for and what does that mean?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:41:54] Exactly.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:41:55] Like what does that mean? What do you do? And like how do you help and does it always work? Like suddenly all these questions come up. That's exciting. That's fun. Like that's a fun way to have a conversation and it can be created if you know how to share your information about yourself in the right way.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:42:08] Yeah, we do a lot of drills on the introducing herself while creating enough curiosity, but not using jargon and things like that in a -- we're doing our live events for Advanced Human Dynamics, and we have drills and exercises where everybody in the room essentially gets to take home their new introduction, and it works so well because then you find that everyone in the room can point to somebody else and go, “This person does this instead of going.” “Oh, that's Tom. He does a risk management for multinational institutions. Not sure what that is, but whatever.” Everyone knows what everyone else does and they're able to explain it to other people. And that's actually, although a tangent, it's a very useful effect of generating enough curiosity because it's more memorable and it allows other people to refer others to you and make you memorable to them as well. So it's almost contagious.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:42:56] Contagious is such a good word. Yeah, exactly. It connects with other people and insight like invites their curiosity, which is cool. But I do think -- let's be super clear before we move on, we're not just talking about some clever attraction hack, which is I'm going to be mysterious for the sake of being mysterious. Like that's not what we're talking about. I don't think we're saying that you should cultivate an error of weirdness to intrigue people, and I'm definitely not suggesting that you should talk about your life and like vague and confusing ways just to beguile people and make them, you know, confused about who you are so that they need to know more.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:43:31] I feel like that backfires.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:43:32] I think it always backfires eventually because it's like we always talk about life style is important, but it will never be a substitute for substance, and style without substance, it's just a façade. So that's not hooking intrigue, that's creating false mystery and that's a totally different thing. False mystery might work in some cases for a short period of time, but it'll never sustain someone's interest over the long term. In a professional setting, it'll go away really quickly because that's a place where you have to prove that you can deliver. You have to create value. You have to be able to do the job. In friendships and romantic situations, that will also backfire and may take a little bit longer because it's a little more, I don't know, it's a little more vague and there's some role for being curious about people for a little while, but at the end of the day, we all kind of want to land on what kind of person are you? What do you like? What do you believe? What do you care about? That's the stuff that makes relationships meaningful, not the purple bow tie, not the yellow hat and not the like, “Oh yeah, I help companies stay afloat in times of uncertainty or something.” You know, it's like, okay, but--

Jordan Harbinger: [00:44:37] Even that's not that bad.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:44:38] Yeah. That actually wasn't that bad. It like, “Oh good. What kind of uncertainty? Tell me everything.” But you know what I mean? There are people who you just can't quite put a finger on and after a while that gets tired. So once you realize that about somebody, I think you quickly forget them. But on the other hand, if you're curious about them and then they satisfy that curiosity with meaningful substance, very hard to forget them.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:44:57] The real last but not least, because I forgot about the fourth pillar, which is contrast. Let's talk about that. I think a lot of people, again, if this is done ham-fistedly or ham-handedly, it blows up in your face, but it's very useful if we can do it right.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:45:13] Agreed. And it's kind of a layer to everything we've been talking about. What we find memorable largely depends on context. So our surroundings are a really important part of the impressions we make. So you'll remember purple bow tie guy at a professional event where everybody's wearing the blue shirt and the cotton Dockers. But you're not going to necessarily remember purple bow tie guy. If you're a, I don’t know, at a magic show and everybody is dress purple. I don't know why that was the first thing I thought of

Jordan Harbinger: [00:45:38] A magic show

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:45:39] Because I just feel like magicians have very like interesting flamboyant colored ties and--

Jordan Harbinger: [00:45:43] True.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:45:44] Neck ties and whatever. That's just the [indiscernible] [00:45:46]

Jordan Harbinger: [00:45:46] Probably they do. Purple wouldn't be such a standout.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:45:50] It wouldn't be as strange. So being memorable means being different. Different is relative to context. But just like vulnerability, this principle can cut both ways because you can stand out from your surroundings in a way that creates a lasting positive impression. But you can also stand out in a way that creates a lasting negative one.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:46:09] Who’s the guy doing magic tricks at the job fair?

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:46:11] Exactly.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:46:12] The weirdo. What the hell was that?

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:46:13] Thank you so much for paying off the magic thing. No, it's not weird because you brought it back again. But also, if you're at a mixer where they're serving alcohol, which happens sometimes I think, like I had a professional mixer.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:46:25] Yeah, if you want people to go and stay, they serve alcohol.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:46:27] I think they used to do that at some of the job, not fairs but like firms would have dinners and they would serve alcohol. So you could be the guy who has a glass of wine and is friendly and fun to talk to and talks about wine and connects with somebody over that. Or you can be the guy who has like four glasses of wine and gets like kind of hammered at the professional event. In both cases you're working against your context, but in one case it can be a disaster and the other is.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:46:54[ I will never forget a guy drinking too much, wasn't wine. But he goes, this is a recruiting event for a firm. And he goes, “So do the girls here put out or what?”

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:47:05] No.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:47:05] And I looked at the guy next to me.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:47:07] Is that a real thing that happened?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:47:07] Yeah, yeah, and I looked at the guy next to me, my colleague, and him and I looked at each other and we're like, we had no idea how to react. We're like, “Oh, we usually try to not shit where we eat. You know what I'm saying?” And then after that he walked up to meet me and my colleague walked away, and this wasn't a colleague I was close with or anything and I was like, “What?”

And he goes, “I know. What do we even do right now?” It's just like, I don't know, let's just get some hors d'oeuvres and then like run away. What do we do right now? Who is this person? Please don't work here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:47:40] That's about as bad as it gets, I think.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:47:41] Yeah, it was terrible.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:47:42] That’s true.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:47:43] And this is well before, this is when like sexual harassment on Wall Street was like considered just bro culture. Now it's --

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:47:51] Now it's like beyond.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:47:52] Much worse. But we all knew better than that. We all knew better than that. None of us were ever thinking about hooking up with someone from work. That was insane.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:48:01] So I don't think this is rocket science, but the key to avoiding that pitfall is just self-awareness. It's just understanding your own psychology and what's appropriate given the context. You have to understand yourself to know how your words and actions are going to play. An edgy joke at a funeral that could come across as witty and kind of charming or it could come across as inappropriate. It depends on your relationship with the person, depends on the joke you're telling, it depends on the people who are attending the funeral. An offhand remark in a meeting, well that could come across as spontaneous and honest, or it could come across as rude and insubordinate. So there are so many situations, they're all different. We couldn't possibly cover them all. But I think just that self-awareness is pretty much the guiding principle to make sure you land on the right side of that.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:48:50] And if you're not sure you have enough self-awareness, air on the side of less is more with contrast. A little contrast can go a long way.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:48:58] Yes.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:48:58] If you're like, “Should I wear the light up tie or just the brightly colored tie?” And you're not sure less is more, right?

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:49:05] Yeah, that's a safe assumption for sure.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:49:06] The ties and easy sort of cliché example, but I think a lot of people are like, “Oh, I want to see this thing to get a reaction out of people. No, let's not do that. Let's not do that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:49:15] Yeah, and also time I think is an interesting variable. I mean when you are the new person at an office and you're sitting in on a team meeting for the first time, probably not a good look to bust out the inappropriate comment on your first day or like the edgy comment or the honest remark, fill it out, build a little bit of trust, understand your position and the tribe. Get to know the vibe in the office. Like six months later, a year later saying the exact same thing could be what sets you apart or makes you valuable to the team once you understand how it functions in that environment.

But if you do it too soon, too quickly without appreciating the circumstances, then it can misfire.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:49:52] Oh yeah. I've also done this in my law career. The example doesn't matter, but basically the HR gal who had a crazy stick up her bummed the entire summer that I was at this one firm, this British law firm, surprise. She was like, “That was an inappropriate remark,” and nobody else thought so, but it didn't matter because she was the one who was like marking my little report card for the summer, and so when I had my final evaluation, this example came up and I remember going, I remember thinking to myself, the person that was the on the other end of that remark laughed and became a friend of mine over the summer. The other associates in the room that had been there for years. They thought it was hilarious and talked about it afterwards. That partners were like, “You're quick on your feet. That's pretty funny.” The one person who had a problem with it just so happened to be the person that was filling out my evaluation. So you have to be a little bit careful in the beginning because you don't have any other baseline for people to say, “Well, Jordan's normally really stand up and gets his job done and everyone likes him,” and then I said this thing, “Ah, that's Jordan.” That is your impression. So you have to be much more careful and I think that's obvious, but here's the problem. In the beginning, people are always trying to set their impression so they're going, “Oh, I have to stand out in these particular ways. I want to do it early.” Less is more when it comes to this because you can otherwise run into trouble. It's not going -- it's never too late to try to stand out a little bit in a workplace environment. So you're not really on a timeline where you're like, “I have to be zany right in the first 10 seconds.” That's more of like a pickup chicks at a bar type of standout and we're not really concerned with that in this particular example.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:51:29] Yeah. Those comments can come to define you if they happen too quickly as opposed to being taken in context of the total person you are.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:51:37] It should be the spice, not the dish.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:51:39] Yes, great way to sum that up. But what I love about what you're saying, and I think this is a nice place to land on this whole topic because we've been talking about how to become more memorable, how to be truly unforgettable, not in a short term, easy way, but in a meaningful long term way. And it's really important I think to remember that you will never make an impression on everybody for all the reasons you want a 100 percent of the time. Sometimes you will fail to make an impression for reasons that you don't understand, and sometimes you will be unforgettable for the wrong reasons. Sometimes you'll be unforgettable for reasons you didn't even expect. So at a certain point, even though this whole Deep Dive was about how to become more unforgettable, you have to kind of relinquish control at the end of the day over how everybody is going to remember you. Because to try to control everybody's impressions of you is just an act of insanity. It's impossible. A, it's stressful. B and C, it hooks into our deepest insecurities about controlling every possible interpretation people can have about who we are, and navigating the world in that way is stressful, and it's impossible. It just doesn't end up working. So to become truly unforgettable, and this is what I think I've really realized from talking this out with you, is that you have to take risks, you have to make mistakes. Some of the most interesting examples we've talked about today have been moments that I think were mistakes that made us realize these lessons. And you have to learn from those mistakes as you calibrate the impression that you make. That's just part of the process and it's essential, without it, I don't think you can be unforgettable.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:53:16] Again, we're going to be walking through this a lot in our live events. If you have a chance to attend, you can find out more about those at advancedhumandynamics.com and yeah, well for me, it's time for a sandwich.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:53:27] Thanks for making all my weird references come back over and over, I like it.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:53:32] Sandwich and bow ties.

[00:53:35] So what we wanted to do here was make this super highly practical, something you can use and things that you'll feel comfortable doing. So if you've read a bunch of articles on silly blog sites, like here's how you be unforgettable, you can sort of forget a lot of that stuff and you can start to apply what actually works, what is science-based, and that's what we try to do here at Advanced Human Dynamics and on the Jordan Harbinger Show. So you hope you enjoyed that. I know Gabriel and I certainly enjoyed making it happen for you. And if you want to learn how I book the great guests that you hear on the Jordan Harbinger Show, how I manage hundreds slash thousands of connections and relationships using simple systems, tiny habits in just minutes per day, check out our Six-Minute Networking Course.

It's free. It's not the “Enter your credit card kind of free,” it's just free. This is the stuff I wish I knew a decade ago. Go to jordanharbinger.com/course, and get it done now. Don't put it off. Don't kick the can down the road. You've got to dig the well before you're thirsty. Once you need those relationships, it's too late. So go ahead and go to jordanharbinger.com/course, and check that stuff out. It is a game changer.

[00:54:40] Speaking of building relationships, tell me your number one takeaway here from me and Gabriel Mizrahi on the show today. I'm @jordanharbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. And don't forget, if you want to learn how to apply everything you've heard from Gabriel and I today, make sure you go grab those worksheets also in the show notes at jordanharbinger.com/podcast.

[00:55:00] This show is produced in association with PodcastOne and this episode was co-produced by Jason “Cramming My Authenticity Down Your Throat” DeFillippo, and Jen Harbinger. Show notes are by Robert Fogarty. Worksheets by Caleb Bacon, and I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. The fee for the show is that you share it with friends when you find something useful, which should be in every episode. So please share the show with those you love and even those you don't. We've got a lot more in the pipeline. Very excited for what's coming down. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time.