1324: Has “Vanilla” Guy Always Been Kinky on the Sly? | Feedback Friday

1324: Has "Vanilla" Guy Always Been Kinky on the Sly? | Feedback Friday

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Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, my woadie, chasing waterfalls, my connoisseur of cacao, Gabriel Mizrahi.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Old Gabey Casueras, that's what they call me.

Jordan Harbinger: Amazing waterfall pic on the 'Gram, my guy. I was like, "Damn, that's a legitimate waterfall.

Look at that." You

Gabriel Mizrahi: know, the worse the roads, the better the waterfalls. That is one of many things I, I have learned from Bahia.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it almost like there's a deeper metaphor in there or something somewhere.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, really? Maybe you can explain it to me one day.

Jordan Harbinger: No, you, you gotta figure out- I'm not following

some things on your own, Gabe.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm trying, bro. There's so much to learn. I'm learning a lot.

Jordan Harbinger: I now have that TLC song stuck in my head, like, "Don't go chasing waterfalls." Waterfalls. "Please stick to the rivers and the lakes that you're used to." Rivers and the lakes that you're used to. Remember that one? And then it was, like, somehow about AIDS?

I don't know.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, yeah. Yeah. First album I ever bought, by the way. Crazy Sexy Cool. What, 10 out of 10.

Jordan Harbinger: Man, banger of an album that was.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So good. [00:01:00] Well, I'm in Rio de Janeiro now, so that's basically what I'm doing for a week, sticking to the rivers I'm used to, not-

Jordan Harbinger: Mm.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Getting AIDS? ... getting AIDS, just to be, just to be clear.

Okay.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, so far.

Gabriel Mizrahi: We'll see. I'm wearing shoes again, so that should help.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, good-

Gabriel Mizrahi: But yeah ... good idea. I do, I do understand this place more. This place is like if Tel Aviv, LA, and Mexico City had a baby. That's how I'd describe it.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. So it's full of hipster Jewish Latinos buying $18 smoothies at Erewhon?

Gabriel Mizrahi: No, no, no. I think you're thinking of Santa Monica. Yeah,

Jordan Harbinger: that's

Gabriel Mizrahi: right. I think that's

Jordan Harbinger: what

Gabriel Mizrahi: it

Jordan Harbinger: is. That's what I think. Wilshire, west of the 405. My bad. It's been

Gabriel Mizrahi: a transition- My bad ... dude. I've gone from, um, contemplating the stars every night to renting Uber e-bikes to get to hot yoga in Copacabana, so very different.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Vibe shift. Wow.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Vibe shift, truly. You know what else is a vibe shift?

Jordan Harbinger: Our transitions? Mm. Because on The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people, and we turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

And our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker- During the week we have long form [00:02:00] conversations with a variety of amazing folks, former jihadis, drug traffickers, CEOs, rocket scientists, astronauts. We had a busy week this week. I've ne- I don't think I've ever released this many episodes in one week.

Well, through the magic of poor planning, we had five episodes. Monday we had David Royce, he started multiple companies, had huge exits, talked sales and sales psychology. I thought this was quite an interesting, if not a little bit offbeat for this show anyway, episode. We also had Dr. Courtney Conley on walking and how you're doing it wrong, which is a little bit alarming for those of us out there that are bipeds.

We also had my friend Todd Rose on collective illusions. This is some fascinating social psychology, and we had a Skeptical Sunday on the moon. On Fridays though we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious sound bites, and never stick to the rivers and the lakes that we're used to.

Feedback Friday always takes us to new bodies of water.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Speaking of which, you just got back from your Disney cruise, didn't you?

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, God.

Producer Jase: Hey, show fam, it's producer Jase here. If you want to take a skiff across the choppy [00:03:00] waters of Jordan and Gabe's latest ridiculous adventure stories, you can jump to 20 minutes and 20 seconds.

Enjoy the show!

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, the Disney cruise from hell, as we now call it in our house. Oh, no. Oh, yes.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No. That bad?

Jordan Harbinger: Not all bad, but a real mixed bag. And I know this is going to be like boo-hoo, first world problems. But yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I have notes on the premium Disney cruise I took. Okay, but I'm just going to go ahead and guess that you...

What new strains of plague did you acquire at sea this time?

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. So much happened. So we booked a four-night cruise, and we bought the... W- I wanted to check if there was a last-minute upgrade, and ChatGPT and Google are like, "They don't do this," and everyone's like, "Disney doesn't do that." But we got it through Costco.

You're like, "

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hold my beer."

Jordan Harbinger: Hold my beer. Costco, they buy a block of rooms, so I was like, "Call Costco and see if there's any last minute rooms." And they're like, "Yeah, we have these crazy-" That's

Gabriel Mizrahi: where I go when I want premium experiences, straight to

Jordan Harbinger: Costco. Here's the thing, though. That's the thing. Like, I thought, "Costco cruise?

What? What's happening?" They're like, "Yeah, we bought a [00:04:00] block of rooms, and we have these two, like, ridiculously overpriced rooms that, surprise, nobody paid $15,000 for, for the four-day cruise." And I was like, "If you give it to me for 1,800 bucks, I'm in." I basically just low-balled them, and they were like, "You got it."

'Cause I was- Wow ... and I was like, "Wow." But did you

Gabriel Mizrahi: have to buy them in bulk? Like, did you have to buy a year's

Jordan Harbinger: worth of cruise? I didn't have to buy a pallet of rooms. No, I just bought the one. And they were like, "You can choose whichever one you want." I was like, "Wow, this is great." So we ended up with this room that had, like, fancy boarding, early boarding, whatever, and, like, g- room service was all included and whatever.

Anyway, you get on, and we, we get escorted to enjoy our first meal on the ship, this place called Tritons, 'cause they're all named after Disney folks.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Is it 180 small size of Frosted Flakes? Yeah. Is

Jordan Harbinger: that

Gabriel Mizrahi: the

Jordan Harbinger: breakfast? Yeah. No, it's... This was, like, really good-looking food. And they're like, "Here's your steak and your mushroom thing."

And I was like, "This is delicious." By the way, this experience is unique to our family. I want to say it's not th- Disney's customer service was amazing. There was a lot of amazing things on the boat. But [00:05:00] I immediately got food poisoning after that first meal. Like- Oh my God. Why? ... not just like, "Oh, that was a little rough.

I've got some stomach pressure." No, like keeled over stomach pain, bowling ball in your gut, puked eight times. Wow. Explosive everything. And I didn't eat for two days. Oh, no. I couldn't look at food. And it wasn't just me- Jesus Christ ... Jen's like, "You're being a drama queen. You're going to stick me with the kids on the first day of the cruise so you can lay around in bed?"

And then like three hours later she comes back into the room just to see me just like projectile you know what everywhere and like then she's like- Oh ... "Move. I gotta, I'm, I'm up." My God. And I was like, "Oh, you got sick too?" 'Cause I made her try it. I'm just like, "This is so good. You gotta have some." She's like-

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, how the toilets have turned.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, indeed. My God, that sounds horrible. Indeed. So we were like, thank God we upgraded and got two bathrooms in the same room. And then so like basically I just-

Gabriel Mizrahi: Playing musical toilets with your family, that's-

Jordan Harbinger: Oh my God ...

Gabriel Mizrahi: so intense.

Jordan Harbinger: So I just like puked out everything that I could and I was like, "I think I'm done."

So I like took a shower and took the kids out of the room so that Jen could just like, you know, have the [00:06:00] worst night of her life. And- Oh,

Gabriel Mizrahi: poor thing ...

Jordan Harbinger: and like skip dinner, skip the show, go to bed. Woke up in the morning, I felt like somewhat human. She did not. I took the kids to the kids' club. They were there for like a couple hours and they're like, "Well, this sucks.

We want to leave." And I was like, "Great." The whole, the thing that everyone sold us on, which is that your kids are never going to want to leave this kids club and you get all this alone time with your adult friends and your wife, whatever, that just wasn't happening. They're like, "This sucks. We want to color in the room."

Did not

Gabriel Mizrahi: come to pass. "

Jordan Harbinger: We don't like the people at the kids club." Like, they, they kept trying to make them do activities and they were like, "We just want to play with the blocks or whatever." And they're like, "No, we're going to make slime, we're going to color," or not, whatever it was. And they were just like, "We don't want to like cut out paper dolls.

We just want to like play dodgeball," or whatever they were doing. I don't know. So like all the kids are like, "We want to go swimming." And I was like, "All right, fine." So I took them to the pool. Anyway, it was just a nightmare because Jen got so much sicker than me even though she only had like a couple of bites, and I, I think it's 'cause, uh, well, who knows why.

But the cruises, by the way, just in general- It's the Olympics of [00:07:00] wasting food. Like- Oh, man. Yeah ... they will bring you extra everything. If you're like, "Oh, this was pretty good," they're like, "Oh, how do you like the shrimp linguine?" And I'm like, "A huge portion, but it's pretty good." And they're like, "All right.

I'm going to bring another round for everyone." And it's like, what are you doing?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hard to watch sometimes.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, it's tough, man. I'm like, i- in the morning, I was like, "Hey, my stomach's upset. Can you bring me a bowl of oatmeal and a little bit of sugar and some berries?" They brought me, like, this massive fruit thing, and they brought me, like, an entire f- whole-ass container of sugar.

Like, more than I would use in a month in any amount of oatmeal. Again,

Gabriel Mizrahi: is this because you bought it from Costco, or is this just cruise ships in general?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. They're like these Costco people. They want everything in bulk. You got a few of them. So yeah, they... I w- I remember Jen was like, "Ooh, I like raisins in my oatmeal."

And they brought a container of, like, no doubt a 10-ounce container of raisins that was bigger than the bowl of oatmeal.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Some guy comes in dragging a, a grape tree.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's like, "Here, take your pick."

Jordan Harbinger: They do grow on vines, but yeah. They... It was just, like, unbelievable.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Did I just say grape tree?

Jordan Harbinger: You did say grape tree.

Not a thing, by the way, folks. That's true, that they do

Gabriel Mizrahi: grow on [00:08:00] vines. That's right. I was...

Jordan Harbinger: As I said that- This is an educational podcast, and you need to step your game up.

Gabriel Mizrahi: We need a Skeptical Sunday on grapes, is what I need. That's right. I heard that come out of my mouth, and I was like, "I don't know why I can't picture a grape tree."

No.

Jordan Harbinger: So

Gabriel Mizrahi: strange. What, have I never contemplated where grapes come from? And then, then now I understand. Let's move on.

Jordan Harbinger: That's where they get their grape canapes, off of grape trees. The workers were also really interesting. There's a, a mix of people, right? So you get these kind of career workers that are all, I don't know, probably my age, 40-something years old, and they're from, like, Yugoslavia, Indonesia, the Philippines.

The younger folks are from South Africa, Australia, the UK, New Zealand. So there's these two tiers of people. Like, there's k- the people at the kids' club, and the people selling jewelry, and the people who are doing excursions, and they're all really young. And then you get these older folks that are in the probably the more money-making positions, like s- food service and stuff.

And I, I looked this up. Their hours are absolutely insane. First of all, they work seven days a week most of the time. They also work, like, 16 hours a day. [00:09:00] These are probably good jobs, 'cause you make, like, 50 grand a year at the high end. And if you're from, I don't know, like, a not a big place in Indo- like, that's probably pretty good for Indonesia or the Philippines, right?

But you are... I c- it's gotta just be kinda miserable. And I'm going to h- go ahead and guess their stateroom is not as nice as the one that I had, right, and doesn't have, like, floor-to-ceiling windows in it. They're probably packed in there. So I just found talking to them was quite interesting. It's a little tough though, right?

'Cause it's a Disney cruise, so you're like, "Hey, what are your hours like?" And they're like, "I love working here." And you're like, "Yeah, but I mean, you work a-" You went, "Yeah, but, uh..." "You work a lot?" And they're like, "Oh, but it doesn't feel like work. Bippity boppity boo." And you're like, "Okay, man. I'm out of here. I will Google it."

'Cause they, like, can't say anything.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Your face and your arthritis tell a different story, my friend.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. There's all these different South Africans with different South African accents, and I realized probably at age 46 for the first time was like, oh yeah, there's, like, these Afrikaners and the people who are English, and they totally have different subculture and, and language and everything.

And so then I was like, "Wait, you're from South Africa? But, but Brandon's also from [00:10:00] South Africa and he sounds completely different." So I was able to talk to some of those folks. One thing that I thought was interesting is that when the South Africans were like, "Don't you love the South Africans? We're all so nice except for Elon Musk."

And everyone looked at her like, "You're not allowed to say stuff like that on the boat." Like, just daggers.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That makes me happy because it reminds me of when we were in North Korea, and everywhere you went people toed the party line, and they had their little scripts and they had their stories about how it is and how this is such a great country- Yeah

and they're very happy. And then every once in a while we would just crack that. You would get past the facade, and they would say one short, honest thing, and you'd be like, "Now we're talking." I live for those moments. My favorite one is, and I haven't thought about this in a while, but I think... You were not on this trip.

This was one I did without you, and we were at the DMZ. They have, like, a little museum where they have the, um, document that they signed during the ar- the armistice agreement- Yeah ... or whatever, and they have flags. And on the table next to the signed document they had the North Korean flag, and then they had not the US flag, but some other flag we use for diplomatic contexts.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I can't remember. I [00:11:00] think the UN flag was there, right? Maybe it was a UN flag or... It was probably a UN flag. And the story they told us, this, like, five-star general who gives the tours is like, "The Americans wouldn't use their own flag because they were so embarrassed about losing the war." And I said, "Wait, really?"

And she looked at me, there was a beat, and then she just rolled her eyes, like, openly with her back turned to the general, and I was like, "That is the correct response." It's those little moments. Sometimes it's not even in words, but you just get... You know, you get past the propaganda.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. There's a couple of thi- I...

One of our friends there, I won't at her because I don't want to get anybody in actual trouble, but there was a... One of the guides was kind of a... She was quite privileged. I think her father was, like, a high-ranking military or government official, and she was in the women's room with one of the British guides from the tour company that we used, our tour partner.

So the, the British guy told me this. They were in there and they were drinking a little bit that day, and she was like, "Yeah, do you ever... Like, if you ever come to the UK, it'd be so great." And her f- this, this K- North Korean girl goes, "We just want to be normal. We're so sick [00:12:00] of all this Kim Jong Il this, Kim Jong Il that."

Yeah. And then she, like, caught herself and was like, "Uh, I'm going to powder my nose and go back out there and pretend this conversation never happened."

Gabriel Mizrahi: Correct.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I know exactly whom you're talking about, too, and she was really special, and it was hard. It makes me sad.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. E- especially if, if they've traveled, they know what semi-normal is.

Like, they go to China- Yeah ... and they go, "Wait a minute. There's not a food shortage globally. What are you talking about?"

Gabriel Mizrahi: I used to think about that, too. Like, it was so fun to get to know some of the North Koreans in Pyongyang who are in the tourism department, and I was like, "Oh, if I lived here, this would definitely be the job I want."

But then I was like, in a way it's worse because you're rubbing up against people from other countries, and you know that what the government is telling you is not true. So in a way, it's harder, it's sadder, and then they say goodbye, and we never get to talk to them again unless we go there- Right ... which we can't.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, the, the North Korea thing, that's a whole separate, that's a whole separate show. Yeah, how did we

Gabriel Mizrahi: get onto this?

Producer Jase: Let's get back to the Costco cruise, shall we?

Jordan Harbinger: I'll lighten it up. So since there were so many different foreign accents on the boat, I had... There's this place called the Bibbidi Bobbidi Boutique, by the way, in the, on the ship, and it's for little kids to, like, go dress up as a princess or a pirate.

So we bought [00:13:00] Juniper this princess makeover thing, and she's, like, getting makeup done. Oh my God. It was the cutest thing ever.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dude, the photos of her were so, both of them were so cute.

Jordan Harbinger: Incredibly, incredibly cute. And so I had asked this guy from India where the Bibbidi Bobbidi Boutique was, and sorry, this is going to sound a little cringe, but he was like, "Oh, the Bibbidi Bobbidi Boutique."

And I laughed so hard, and he was laughing too because he had trouble saying it. And then I went around the boat asking every staff member where the Bibbidi Bobbidi Boutique was so that they would repeat it in their accent, and it was so funny. And I'm not making fun of them. I- It was actually just the cutest thing to hear people be like, "Oh, the Bibbidi Bobbidi Boutique.

It's on the third floor." And I was just like, "Wow, that like- I like that one too."

Gabriel Mizrahi: So whimsical. They must have known that when they named that store.

Jordan Harbinger: It was it was so funny. And the, again, the service was amazing. Everybody was super kind. And seeing... One of the most interesting parts of this was seeing adults out of their normal element.

So when you're out alone in the world as an adult, you're just kind of like whoever you are, but when you're with your kids, usually I would [00:14:00] say, especially on vacation, the best version of that person, right? 'Cause you want to set a good example for your kids. So there was this guy I bumped into, and I had to get around him in a line.

He was in a line that was, like, blocking the way I needed to go, and I was like, "Oh, excuse me. I didn't mean to bump into you," 'cause I was looking at my daughter. And I turn around, and this guy with a giant Nazi tattoo on his chest is like- Oh, wow ... "Oh, you're good, man. It's all good, bro." And I was like, "Whoa, you're wearing a huge Nazi tattoo across your entire- Oh my God, dude

chest." And I looked at him, and he's, like, shaved head, you know, like, beard, and I was like, "This dude is a, this is a neo-Nazi or at least an ex neo-Nazi."

Gabriel Mizrahi: That is very confusing.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, American History X at sea.

Jordan Harbinger: 100%. He, he had, like, American flag swim shorts, which sounds like it contradicts the whole Nazi thing but actually is kind of like, you know, makes perfect sense a little bit.

Now, not because Americans are Nazis, save your emails, but because a lot of the sort of, like, super patriot, white nationalist type people, they consider themselves, like, "We're the real Americans. We're the, you know, we're the Christian ones that [00:15:00] came here first, and it's our land." Like, that's a belief system that I've explored here on the show before, if you're familiar.

So I just thought that was so interesting 'cause I was like, "What is this guy thinking when he sees me walking past with my clearly mixed children? What is this guy thinking when he's got the," I think it's called the Reichsadler on, like, the Nazi iron eagle that's perched on- Oh, yeah ... the swastika all, all across his chest?

And I was like, "Does anybody say anything to this guy?" Like, half the cruise is Asian people and, like, Latinos. I mean, it's a very mixed crowd on a Disney cruise.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And then that guy turns around and saves you the last buttermilk pancake.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, he was like, he, he was getting ice cream with his kids, and it was just such a weird juxtaposition 'cause you're like, "Oh."

You

Gabriel Mizrahi: should not be allowed to enjoy ice cream with that tattoo. I'm sorry.

Jordan Harbinger: I'd like to think he got that when he was younger, he doesn't have the money to remove it, he grew his chest hair over it, and he's got a bunch of other tattoos, and he's like, "Yeah, I was an idiot. What can you do?" I told myself if I weren't with my kids and I saw that guy again, I would be like, "Dude, I gotta ask you, what's up with the tattoo?[00:16:00]

I'm so curious." 'Cause he didn't seem scary. He seemed like a very friendly guy. That was so bizarre to me.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Let me guess, not a Neapolitan guy.

Jordan Harbinger: I did see him later, still with my kids, and he was eating chocolate ice cream, and I was like- No ... there's such a good joke in here that I will not absolutely not be saying.

This is literally where my

Gabriel Mizrahi: mind went, like, you have... With that tattoo, you've gotta pile on the vanilla.

Jordan Harbinger: Just

Gabriel Mizrahi: all the way, dude.

Jordan Harbinger: I was like, "Huh, chocolate, huh, pal?" Hmm. "I knew it."

Producer Jase: Interesting choice.

Gabriel Mizrahi: There's

Jordan Harbinger: a funny meme on Twitter that says, "Never ask a white supremacist to show you a picture of his wife," 'cause it's always, like, an Indian lady or a Latina.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh my God, that's so intense. Wow. Well, I'm glad the cruise brought out the best in these people. That's all I can say.

Jordan Harbinger: Anyway, everyone was friendly, not a single dickhead, even the guy with the Nazi tattoo. A lot of Disney adults, by the way. So this was a whole thing where I was like, "These gotta be the weirdest people ever."

They're... First of all, they're super nice 'cause they're basically grown-up kids, and they're all friendly, and they're in their happy place, right, 'cause they're on a Disney cruise, and they're, like, trading pins with my son.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No judgment, but yes, a little [00:17:00] judgment maybe, but that's weirder to me than the Nazi tattoo.

Jordan Harbinger: I look at it this way. I'm 46. My wife is 40. We would not go on a Disney cruise without little kids. But there were a lot of people our age that had no kids and, or even younger that had no kids with them. Look, maybe I just saw them without their kids, but I'm pretty sure these were the same people, like I never saw them with their kids, and they also had like Disney tattoos- Wow

and stuff like that. And I thought, "Oh, no, these are Disney adults." Like, they're buying jerseys in their size, Goofy jerseys, uh, in their size at the store.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You got a Minnie Mouse tramp stamp and you're going on this cruise? I don't know, man. It's not the cruise that bothers me, it's the trading pins. You have to draw a line somewhere.

For me, it's trading small objects as a grown adult, but maybe I don't understand the magic of Disney. Well,

Jordan Harbinger: there was a 70-plus-year-old man, maybe even 80 plus, who had an eye patch, which is funny 'cause the pi- it was a pirate-themed day, and I kept going like, "Oh, look, a real pirate." And he'd go, "Yar." But he definitely was just missing an eye.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, yeah, he needed it. Sure.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. And he had a Mickey Mouse eye patch, by the way. It was definitely for the trip. And he was pin [00:18:00] trading, and I was like, "Oh, let's go trade pins with this older guy. It'll be so nice." And I brought my, my son and two of the girl- my friend's kids were there with us, and th- he was like, "Nah, this pin's more value."

Like, this girl's like, "I'll trade you this one for this," and he's like, "Nah, nah, nah, this is in a class above. I'm not going to trade you this." And he was like hardballing these little kids during pin trading. And I was like, "Oh, he's not like, 'Oh, sure, if, whatever makes you happy.'" He was like, "Nah, this is a good pin.

Yours sucks."

Gabriel Mizrahi: This is the greatest TV show I've seen in a long time. This is too funny,

Jordan Harbinger: dude. Yeah, I'm going to wrap this in a sec, but, uh, there's this gifting culture where people... It's called pixie dust, where, like, you can leave a bag or people make magnet hooks and stuff, and they stick them to their cruise door- Jen made a bunch of necklaces to give away and it's like, "Take a necklace," and people would leave little rubber ducks or little necklace jewelry things, key chains, stickers in the little mailbag.

And the kids were stoked 'cause they'd wake up every morning and there'd be, like, new little toys in their mailbox. And it was just a really fun thing. And we would go in the elevator and this little girl had a sword, [00:19:00] but she was a princess. And I said, "Oh, a princess with a sword." And she goes, "Actually, does your son want this?

I don't need it, I'm a princess," and she just gave him this really cool sword. And the whole cruise was like that. It was just a lot of sharing and fun and older kids being really nice to younger kids. I just thought it was such a, a good environment for that and-

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's cute.

Jordan Harbinger: I did, uh, see a show fan, or I should say a show fan spotted me on the boat.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, that's awesome. Who was it?

Jordan Harbinger: A couple of them, actually. I only got the name of one. Shout out to Carlos who spotted me on the boat. We were just walking in a crowd of, I don't know, of 200 people to get to something, I don't remember now, and he's like, "Jordan Harbinger?" And I was like, "Oh yeah, hey man," and we talked for a second.

He's like, "I'll let you get back to it," 'cause the crowd was pushing us, you know, in different directions basically. It was just a funny place to get spotted, 'cause of course I'm, like, a mess, right? Food poisoning, unshaven, with kids, probably have different bits of drool and boogers stuck to me somewhere and I was like, "Oh, hey.

Hey, bro. Thanks for listening to the show." Uh, actually, totally on brand now that I think about it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I was going to say, it sounds like you always run into fans when you're either on your way to the bathroom or coming back from the bathroom. It's a [00:20:00] weird timing. That's

Jordan Harbinger: true, and I was both of those things for the majority of the cruise.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That sounds like it started off real rocky, but actually turned around in a, in the best way. That's, that's actually very sweet and sounds like a pretty solid vacation.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. It's just as important to find out what kind of vacations you don't enjoy as it is to find out the kind of vacations that you do.

So it wasn't a waste at all. And the kids said they had fun even though the majority of that was coloring in the room and going down a water slide, so whatever. All right, Gabe, what is the first thing out of the mailbag? "

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi Jordan and Gabe. I'm in a long-term marriage. We've been together for 17 years, married for 13 this coming fall, and have three young kids, and I feel like my understanding of my husband and my relationship has been unraveling piece by piece over the last year.

For our entire relationship he presented himself as very vanilla."

Jordan Harbinger: You don't say.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I completely forgot about that. Did not see the vanilla coming.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, you did not see that coming.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Did not see the vanilla coming. "If I ever asked about his sexual [00:21:00] preferences or kinks, his answer was always some version of, 'I'm just vanilla, babe,' and he told me he only had eyes for me.

He also consistently downplayed his porn use, saying it was minimal or basically nonexistent." And only came up occasionally.

Jordan Harbinger: Ooh, here we go.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Something tells me this dude is about as vanilla as rocky road. As that ice cream that that other guy probably avoids like the plague. Are you getting that vibe?

Jordan Harbinger: I am.

This guy is one of those 80% cacao vanillas. You only, you only find those in Belgium.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm just vanilla, babe. You know, the kind of vanilla that keeps you up with heart palpitations till 4:00 in the morning, but that kind of vanilla.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I can't wait to hear what this guy's Pornhub search history was.

Let's go.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I've never had an issue with porn use. I even worked at a porn store while putting myself through grad school, but that's changed over the past year. After his mom passed away, I started uncovering things that made me question his honesty and our entire relationship. Since then, I've repeatedly discovered ongoing porn use, specific kinks and interests he never [00:22:00] disclosed, and behaviors that directly contradict what he's told me about himself.

This has included using porn frequently in situations that feel especially inappropriate to me, like at work, and even while he was solely responsible for caring for our infant, which has made this feel less like a private habit and more like something that's crossing serious boundaries. Some of what I've found has also crossed into spaces in our home and family life in ways that feel deeply inappropriate and unsettling to me.

Jordan Harbinger: Wait, so what does that mean exactly? Like literal spaces or figurative ones?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Either she means he's rubbing one out on the couch in the living room- Uh-huh ... or something like that while the baby's sleeping in the other room. Okay. Or she means he's, like, trying to Bring it into their relationship in some way?

Jordan Harbinger: Now that I'm thinking about it, it's probably the former one. Yeah. But I hear her. He's not discreetly partaking in the bathroom before bed or something. He's b- he's being way too loosey-goosey about it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Bold words coming from the guy who partook in the bathroom while his, what was it? His in-laws heard the video on the Bluetooth speaker in the living room

Jordan Harbinger: No, you're thinking of me being in the car in a parking lot at [00:23:00] Kaiser Permanente. No, no,

Gabriel Mizrahi: no.

Jordan Harbinger: But y- oh, the video- No, no, no ... that my friend sent me so long- Yes. There you go ... oh, my God, that was so long ago.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Some friend that was.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I will never live this down. Why did you bring that up?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Because, you know, it's our love language, Papa.

Mm-hmm. And I love you.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. All right.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And I just have to remind everybody that you did that.

Jordan Harbinger: Straight out of a Judd Apatow movie. That moment, I go to take a leak, my friend tells me to watch some dumb adult video. This is years ago, okay? I forget my phone's connected to Bluetooth. I have to walk back in 'cause I can't hear it, so I crank the volume, right?

I walk back in wondering if they know what they heard and figured it out.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, it's so ridiculous. Ugh. I could not write a better scene myself. One of my favorite stories of yours, by the way.

Jordan Harbinger: Glad you enjoyed. Let's get back to her nightmare, shall we? Let's do

Gabriel Mizrahi: that. Most of what I found directly conflicts with what he said he's attracted to, which makes me question whether I was ever given an honest picture of his sexual identity at all.

Jordan Harbinger: Hmm, I can see why that's the hardest part.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. That and the cleaning bill for the upholstery, but I, I hear her.

Jordan Harbinger: That and the, uh, yeah, $800 prepaid cleaning warranty from La-Z-Boy. Schwing.

Gabriel Mizrahi: There have also been moments [00:24:00] that make the contradictions even harder for me to process. At one point, after listening to an episode of The Jordan Harbinger Show about Ozempic, he encouraged me to listen to it too because he wanted me to consider taking it due to his concerns about my weight and lifespan, even though I'm relatively healthy and have always been a plus-sized woman.

At the time, I tried to take that at face value and even attributed it to his grief after his mom passed. But in the context of everything I've since discovered, including the types of women he's consistently looking up, consuming, and drawn to- It feels deeply hurtful, confusing, and contradictory, and makes me question what is actually true about his attraction and intentions.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Yeah, that's a tough message to take in. So I'm assuming he's looking at, like, super thin women or something, and then he's going to his wife like, "Hey, have you heard of the GLP-1 Ozempic? Super interesting. Jordan Harbinger told me all about it." Don't put this on me, pal. But yeah, that's tricky, to put it mildly.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I've tried to make sense of this, and part of me wonders if this is tied to shame [00:25:00] around his actual preferences, that what he presents and what he's drawn to privately don't match, and I've been given the more socially acceptable version.

Jordan Harbinger: Shame or fear, yeah. Socially acceptable, maybe. I mean, you haven't told us specifically what he's into, but maybe this is more about what he thinks you would find acceptable.

Gabe, I'm not getting the idea that he's watching dudes or anything. I feel like it would be more clear-cut that he's, "Oh my God, my husband's gay," right? That w- Correct. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, so I'm g- I'm just guessing it's, I don't know, women that are built differently.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But even if that's true, it still leaves me dealing with the dishonesty and confusion that come from not being told the truth for 17 years.

What's been most damaging isn't just what I found, it's the pattern around it. Every time I discover something and try to talk with him over this past year, I've met with defensiveness, denial, "I don't remember," or a minimized version of the truth. When he does admit to something, it's usually only after I have evidence and I'm told, "That's everything," or, "There's nothing else."

Then later I find more.

Jordan Harbinger: Ooh, [00:26:00] yeah, that's... So this dishonesty, the withholding, and the obfuscation, whatever you want to call it, that's sort of a problem on top of the problem, and might actually be the real problem.

Gabriel Mizrahi: This has happened enough times that it feels like I'm being drip-fed the truth over time instead of given honesty from the start.

Jordan Harbinger: Yep, ye olde trickle truthing.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Trickle truthing. I've never heard that one. Interesting.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I've tried addressing this in multiple ways: calmly, directly, and emotionally, but the pattern doesn't change.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, if that's true, assuming you've made it genuinely safe for him to be open with you, then at a certain point, this does become about him.

Gabriel Mizrahi: When I try to talk about it, the focus shifts to how I'm bringing it up, my tone, my reaction, my phrasing, instead of the fact that I keep uncovering things I was never told.

Jordan Harbinger: So either she's not making it totally safe to open up, which is possible given how sensitive this topic is, or-

Gabriel Mizrahi: Or he's kinda, like, throwing up smoke screens and pointing the finger at her.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, exactly. I truly cannot tell. I would love to talk to this guy.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I leave these conversations feeling more hurt, confused, and dismissed, and [00:27:00] like I need a full case file of evidence just to be taken seriously. At the same time, sex feels like a priority for him in a way that doesn't match the emotional reality of our relationship.

What an interesting way to say, "I don't want to have sex with you right now, ma'am."

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I was just kinda thinking the same thing. What a way to turn someone down. Hey, girl, you want to get it in? Oh, that does not match the emotional reality of our relationship right now. So f- I mean, I get what she means, but yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't feel safe, respected, or fully appreciated, yet there's still an expectation for physical intimacy even though no real relationship repair has happened for the level of betrayal that I feel.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. In all seriousness, I totally understand what you're saying, and that's gotta be a strange feeling, being intimate with a spouse when there's all this unresolved stuff between you that y- you're not making real progress on.

Gabriel Mizrahi: On the other hand, he s- clearly still wants to have sex with her. That's interesting. That matters, too. But she feels betrayed by this, but he's just like, "I, I enjoy this stuff privately. This is mine."

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. It's an interesting question. What exactly hurts about this, and [00:28:00] who's creating that hurt?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Knowing what I know now and how long it's been hidden makes me feel like I don't even know who I married.

She said that three or four times now, so this is a really big thing, yeah. I'm struggling to understand where the line is between private behavior and deception that undermines a marriage.

Jordan Harbinger: Again, such an interesting question. Are married people allowed privacy in this department, or does that privacy only end up chipping away at intimacy?

Gabriel Mizrahi: At what point does repeatedly hiding parts of your sexual life, including porn use and undisclosed kinks, cross from privacy into a breach of trust in a monogamous marriage? Can trust realistically be rebuilt when the truth only comes out in bits and pieces and only after being discovered?

Jordan Harbinger: After being busted, yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And how do I move forward in a long-term marriage with young children when I feel like I was never given a fully honest picture of who my husband is and I still don't know if I have it now? Signed, All Up In My Feelings Now That I Know What and Where My Husband Is Streaming.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow, big questions, [00:29:00] good questions.

This is intense, man. So I'm obviously very sorry that you find yourself in this situation. I can hear how much it hurts. I can totally understand why this is unsettling. To feel like the person you've been with for 17 years, is that what it was?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Together for 17, but married for 13.

Jordan Harbinger: To feel like they're actually this whole other person, or maybe to be more accurate and more fair to him, that there's this whole side to him and what he likes that you didn't know about, and that side is different from yours, different from what you offer him in some ways.

Unsettling and hurtful, for sure. Probably not intentionally, but painful for you. But then when you layer on top of it the issues of body image, potential porn addiction, dishonesty or incomplete honesty, rocky communication, questionable boundaries, I think I can understand why it's doing such a number on you, and I'm, I'm sorry about that.

That said, I want to make a little room for how tricky this might be for your husband, just in the interest of total fairness here. To state the obvious, and this can be an uncomfortable fact to confront and I think it's important to say, he's allowed to be into whatever he's into [00:30:00] as long as he's not harming himself or anyone else, of course.

And for a lot of people, consuming porn is, like, kinda their way of enjoying those things. And yeah, the topic of porn is complicated, but generally speaking, I kinda think people are allowed to consume whatever they want, again, as long as they're not engaging in any harm. And there's a philosophical argument as to whether people who make that are being harmed always by you consuming it, but I'm not addressing that right now.

The other thing I want to acknowledge is, yes, it's possible that your husband is dealing with some shame about his preferences, and if so, I actually feel for him there to a certain extent as well. Shame is generally very hard to work through, especially in this department. It's also his shame to deal with.

I also think, like I said, that he sees how sensitive this is for you, and he probably doesn't want to hurt you, so maybe shame is only half the equation. At the same time, man, Gabriel, I don't know. He, he still wants to have sex with her, and he's watching porn to, like, scratch an itch or curiosity about something else, and it's, it doesn't mean like, "Oh, I don't love my wife anymore because I'm watching, I don't know, 20-something-year-old [00:31:00] thinner women have sex."

It's not... Think about it like this. Maybe the reason that this bothers her so much, and we don't have information here, but let's assume he's just watching younger, thinner women have sex or something like that on screen. That's a bad example of what I'm about to say because it's, it maybe hits on insecurities.

But, like, imagine he's watching, I don't know, tentacle porn. You'd probably go, "Well, that's kinda silly. Do you want to have sex with an octopus?" And the answer is no, and it's just like, "Oh, well, that's a weird thing you're watching. Yeah, I was just kinda curious what it looked like," and it's almost like a joke.

But the fact that he's watching something that's specifically... It's hitting certain switches in her that is making it way worse. I don't know. If you were watching cartoon porn, it would be like, "He watches cartoon porn. What a weirdo." Not, "Oh my God, what does this mean about me?"

Gabriel Mizrahi: But the fact is that it is closer to them and their marriage, so it does hurt.

Yeah. Which switches does it hit in her is exactly the question. Yes. I

Jordan Harbinger: think that's a

Gabriel Mizrahi: very good point.

Jordan Harbinger: It's possible that at least some of his dishonesty can be attributed to his desire to protect you or spare you from being hurt. [00:32:00] I don't think he's going about that in a v- th- great way. Th- th- that's certainly not the best way.

But if he's a decent person and he loves you, which I hope he is, I, I hope he does-

Gabriel Mizrahi: Then some of this might be coming from a, quote-unquote, good place in him?

Jordan Harbinger: I think there's a decent chance that if we could ask him, he'd be like, "I'm into this kinda stuff. My wife is different in certain ways. I care about her.

I don't want to hurt her. I see how hard this is for her, so I just keep it to myself. And honestly, I think I'm allowed to keep it to myself." Uh, call me crazy, I just, I don't think that makes him a monster.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's a very fair point, and I appreciate that you're making some room for him in all of this, but all of that is having some apparently painful effects, and it is putting some distance between them, and I'm just trying to figure out exactly why.

Jordan Harbinger: So let's talk about that. One layer of this that does seem problematic to me is the way he's engaging with the porn, okay? A lot of what she described, it does sound compulsive, almost like he isn't in total control of it or at least he's not being very thoughtful about it, which is unfortunately very common.

Porn addiction's a weird term, but, like, porn addiction is so widespread, [00:33:00] it's kind of insane. So even if we allow that he can watch this stuff privately and it's all fair, it's also true that he needs to be mature and respectful and disciplined and appropriately boundaried and all those things, especially with a k- a kid in the house.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I know you were kind of like, "Is porn addiction a real thing?" But I also feel like the moment you're using porn frequently at work- Yeah ... which we don't know if he works from home. But even if you do- I hope so. ... if you're like, "Can-" Yeah. C- But we don't know. I mean, people do this in the office, in the bathroom at the office, or if he's just, I don't know, or, like, while rocking the baby to sleep.

Yeah. I think you might have a problem.

Jordan Harbinger: Like, "Hey, man, I know you're in the middle of something, but I really... Can I get that latte? I'm kind of in a hurry." It's like-

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. "I'll get to your pistachio latte after I'm done with the tentacle porn. Just give me five minutes."

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, exactly. "Hold on. I just have to adjust something."

Yeah. H- uh, hard agree. Oh, unfortunate turn of phrase there.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Chubby agree.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. I

Gabriel Mizrahi: understand. I got you.

Jordan Harbinger: Tuck that agree in the waistband. Precisely. So even if the porn use weren't bringing up these challenges for you, I'd still say this is something your husband needs to address. This is not [00:34:00] coming from a moral finger waggy kinda place.

I trust that's obvious. I hope it is. This is coming from a, it sounds like you have a potentially unhealthy relationship with this stuff, bro, and if you can't get through a workday or hang with the baby without rubbing one out to alien porn, then you might be flirting with something like an addiction, and it's possible that this stuff has hijacked your mind, and you need some help or at least to go on a little detox.

That's the place I'm coming from And it's okay to need help. I don't think it's controversial to say that pornography has the potential to be quite harmful. We've done several episodes about this over the years. But it's not okay to not address this stuff and start using it responsibly when it starts to take over your life in this way.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I agree. So let's talk about this honesty, intimacy tension in general.

Jordan Harbinger: Let's. I truly do not know where to land on that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, like you, I'm kind of of two minds there. On one hand, I think every person deserves a certain degree of privacy in this domain and in other domains as well- Mm-hmm ... in order to be safe, to be free, to be an individual, you know?

Jordan Harbinger: I agree with that in principle, yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And in fact, being truly close with another person might [00:35:00] require that privacy. You know, that's kind of like the essential separateness that allows for togetherness. Whereas a total loss of privacy or separateness might actually start to become, I don't know, or has the potential to become something like enmeshment or control or something like that.

Jordan Harbinger: Good point. Kinda like how boundaries are what allow for true closeness. We've talked about that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: On the other hand

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: We cannot deny that his hiding stuff like this has hurt his wife quite deeply, and it has put emotional distance between them. So then I wonder, can you really be private about this stuff and still be close?

Jordan Harbinger: It's a weird paradox. Both feel true. It's like privacy is legitimate, it's kinda sacred, and it can come at a cost.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But does it come at a cost because it's inherently wrong to hide any part of yourself from a spouse for long because, like, the moment you're hanging onto something you're already kind of pulling away?

Or does it come at a cost when the other person expects to have access to all of those parts of you when they might not?

Jordan Harbinger: Ah, good question. Like, is he automatically hurting her by hiding his preferences and habits, or is he hurting her because her need to know about this stuff is almost [00:36:00] creating the problem?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Made further complicated by the fact that even if he were being totally open with her about all of this, she would probably still be hurt by some of these preferences.

Jordan Harbinger: Another good point. Because yeah, she couldn't blame him for lying or whatever, but she might still feel like she isn't giving him something important that he wants.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So there's an interesting opportunity for her to really take stock of the source of her hu- sources of her hurt and where he needs to take responsibility for the way that he's communicating with her. And, you know, she might also need to take responsibility for taking a little bit better care of herself because she's kinda blaming him for all of her feelings.

I can imagine that it's very tempting for her to say, "My husband has been hiding this porn addiction," or something like it. "He's not being straight up with me about the stuff that he likes, and when he does tell me, he doesn't tell me the full story. And what he does tell me suggests that it's very different from what I can offer him, and that hurts."

And I get that. From her perspective, that is true. But a moment ago, Jordan, you made room for a couple possibilities on his end that might also be equally true and might, in fact, make his behavior maybe more [00:37:00] painful than hurtful, meaning she experiences pain, but he's not intending to hurt her. She has some tender spots in this department that his private porn use is touching on, and I think that might be important to recognize as well.

Jordan Harbinger: Agreed. But what I'm also appreciating is that we have the potential to hurt someone unintentionally, especially a partner, when we're cagey about certain information He might not be aware that hiding and communicating like this can create problems, but the reality is that it does create problems. So this question of who's responsible for her pain is kinda, it's a tricky one.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Another excellent point. And it can be true that her pain, which again is fair, really is making it hard for both of them to talk about this. He might be afraid and overwhelmed by her pain, and she might be hurt and kind of turned off by his preferences. Throw all of those feelings together and even if she's sitting in front of him saying, "Look, I'm willing to hear the truth.

I would rather know everything, even if it hurts. Please don't lie to me," he might still feel her judgment, her distaste, her hurt. He might also be contending with his own feelings about all this and just go, "I can't... Yeah, I can't talk about this fully."

Jordan Harbinger: But can't, eh, [00:38:00] it's a flexible concept. He can learn.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's true. He could if he wants to.

Jordan Harbinger: Whether he wants to, that's another story. The tough thing is, Gabe, even if he does decide to start being fully honest, that might bring to the surface other potential incompatibilities between them.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Getting better with the communication and openness might not fix the problem.

In fact, it might ironically make it worse, but it would eliminate at least one huge level of their conflict. She can no longer blame him for withholding.

Jordan Harbinger: Right. But also this depends on how important their sex life, broadly speaking, is to them. For some couples it's not a big deal, and that's fine.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. I mean, it's fine as long as both parties are on the same page and they want the same things, need the same things, value the same things.

I'm not sure.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I'm not sure they are. It, it's just one more question for them to explore. I'm also curious, a bit curious anyway, about what else is going on in his life. The big thing hovering in the background, although I can't tell how big of a role it's playing here, is his mother's death.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, yeah.

I'm glad you brought this up. It was after she passed away that our friend started finding out about all this stuff, so that is interesting.

Jordan Harbinger: I thought that was interesting as well. Did he start consuming all this porn as a way to numb [00:39:00] himself and his grief and it got out of hand? Was he consuming it the whole time, but the grief made him turn to it even more and he, he became more reckless about it?

Is the grief making him care less about whether our friend finds out and what she thinks?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Or is our friend attributing a lot of this, like the Ozempic conversation, to his mom's death because that makes it somehow easier to cope with?

Jordan Harbinger: You mean like, the only way I can seriously consider this recommendation is if it's truly a question of health and that's tied to your mom's mortality?

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's actually a very interesting possibility. A related one, which is what I thought it was, was you encouraging Ozempic is so hurtful to me, I have to believe that it's because you're grieving that you thought this would go over well at all. I'm kinda hearing both possibilities in her letter. I'm not sure.

Jordan Harbinger: This Ozempic thing, man, is so loaded, yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So loaded.

Jordan Harbinger: I'm afraid that if we got into that, this letter would take up the whole episode. The whole question of size and weight and aesthetics, whether we can legitimately frame this stuff as a question of health or whether the moment you start thinking about losing weight you're already in disordered territory, it's all extremely complicated.

We are not qualified to really wade into those waters responsibly. But it [00:40:00] might be worth making some room here for your own feelings around your weight, whatever they are. This is me inviting you to get curious here. This is not me telling you how to think. You said you're a plus-size woman. I don't know what that means.

I can imagine it means a lot of things. But you also said that you're relatively healthy. I realize tiptoeing up to this is already a very delicate matter, and I hope you can tell that I do it with a lot of love. My question for you is, does any of your anger and hurt and confusion about your husband's preferences, does any of that have to do with your own feelings about yourself?

Maybe they have nothing to do with each other. Maybe there's some connection there and it's hard to put your finger on. I want to be clear, I'm not saying, "Hey, go on Ozempic," or you need to make a change unless you are, like, medically obese, in which case I would feel pretty comfortable saying it's time to start taking care of yourself.

This is objectively dangerous. But my sense is that getting this rec from your husband is particularly dicey for obvious reasons. And if it turns out that he might have a point here, like if you could be taking better care of yourself, which might have the added benefit of helping your sex life, if that's something you want to do, then there [00:41:00] might, might be something valuable for you to hear there.

And I, I wish it were not coming from him right now in this way, but this is where it's coming from. I recognize this is not a PC take. I recognize that a lot of people are yelling at their car stereos right now and getting angry at me. I make room for all of these reactions and beliefs, and I swear to you, I really do.

I'm not here to tell you how you should look or anything. But you chose to include that piece of information, which I appreciate, and by your own admission, your health could be better. So putting aside all of this very painful and knotty and confusing sex and intimacy and honesty stuff, just focusing with a lot of love and curiosity about you, the question I'm posing to you is, are you taking the best possible care of yourself?

Not as a matter of aesthetics, not even just as a way to please your husband, but as a matter of you taking good care of you. And if you did, would that change any of your feelings about all this? Intense question, I know, but I'd be remiss if I didn't put it on the table. Warm up those angry emails, folks.

I know it's a minefield. I, I get it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Wow. Yeah, very much the DMZ of [00:42:00] marriage problems, but I appreciate that.

Jordan Harbinger: I suppose all relationships are, and that's kinda what we're talking about, right? Marriage is like a gymnasium for trauma and healing. Some people are doing abs alone in the corner. Some people are jumping rope outside.

Some people are doing partner squats in the middle of the gym. That metaphor maybe doesn't make a ton of sense. Whatever. Lots of different ways to be in a relationship is what I'm saying. Lots of different risks and upsides. Yeah. Sorry about where you are, my friend. I know it hurts. I'm also confident that you and your husband are right where you need to be because we always are.

But the difference between living with this hurt and evolving from this hurt is what you do with it on your own and with him if he's up for it. But I do really hope that your husband finds a more helpful way to talk to you about this and that you remain open to understanding exactly why this hurts because my sense is that there are several contours to this hurt.

And I hope that together you guys figure out how to talk about all this in a more direct way, including how you repair and how that informs the intimacy between you. Sending you a big hug and wishing you all the best. You know what else you can enjoy with one hand? The [00:43:00] pornographically good deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show.

We'll be right back

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One more time, gusto.com/jordan

Jordan Harbinger: Thank you for listening to and supporting the podcast. All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are on the website at jordanharbinger.com/deals. Please consider supporting those that support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, next up. "

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, a couple of weeks ago, your recommendation of the week was NotebookLM.

I was up for a job at the time, major events manager for citywide events, so I uploaded the job description, role, person spec, and every bit of info I could find about the company, and got it to create podcasts about the role, which I listened to throughout the interview process. I was so impressed by what it could do."

Jordan Harbinger: Amazing use case. I love that you ran with this idea. That AI is insanely good. I think I mentioned that a friend used it to create a summary of this pretty complicated legal case that he's involved in. That's [00:46:00] right. And he, instead of explaining it to everybody and being like, "Read the filing," which no one's going to do, he's like, "Here's a podcast about it."

And I, I just know a lot of students use it, but prepping for a job interview is another brilliant application of this. Nice work. "

Gabriel Mizrahi: I was excited to email you to say that I nailed the interview and got the job, but it didn't go my way."

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, man, sorry to hear that. "

Gabriel Mizrahi: Apparently, it was mine right up until the last person they interviewed, who had some very specific experience that I don't have.

I'm really experienced in events and entertainment, but this person had police experience, which gave them a safety edge, which was a priority for them. Historically, I've always been great at interviews and got my early roles easily. I've then been promoted into senior positions, but since I had kids and am applying directly for senior roles, I've had this experience of being the runner-up for a job four times.

Three after my first baby two years ago, I ended up going freelance because I couldn't land a job, and now it feels like history is repeating itself after my second baby. People keep reassuring me that the reasons I haven't gotten these jobs were all out of my control. I ask [00:47:00] for feedback, and it's always the same story.

'We loved you. We know you could do it. We'd love to work with you, but someone else had X thing, so we gave it to them.' But I am the common denominator, and I'm sure there's something I can do differently. Then recently, one of the companies I didn't get a role with last time contacted me to say the job is up again, and I have an interview.

Do you have any suggestions of how I can get the edge that will move me from almost there to we definitely need to hire her? Signed, trying to win over the boss when I'm not quite sure how I come across."

Jordan Harbinger: Excellent question. So first of all, I am very sorry this interview did not go the way you'd hoped. I know the job market is just crazy, and taking time off to have children, that can be tough, and there's so many variables in a job search, it can just be maddening.

But there are so many great signs here, the positive feedback, your mindset in taking responsibility for your results, looking for ways to improve, your creativity in the way you prep for interviews, this latest invitation to come back and interview. Companies don't do that unless they are genuinely interested in you, so this is all great [00:48:00] news.

So one general thought about getting real feedback while you're interviewing, it is really hard to do These hiring managers, they might be telling you the truth when they say it was out of your control, that they loved you, that they'd love to work with you, but-- And, and look, I get the sense they do mean it, but if there does happen to be more to it than that, they're probably not going to tell you, both because it's uncomfortable for most people to give direct feedback, which sucks, and because it can sometimes be sensitive or even legally risky.

Also, even if this was out of your control from their perspective, from where they're sitting, somebody better just happened to walk in, that doesn't mean it's actually out of your control. So it's kind of an annoying response, although I get why hiring managers do say that. And even if this were out of your control, that still means the other candidate had something that you didn't, right?

So in a sense, it might be under your control insofar as a lot of these qualities or skills are ones you could cultivate, too. I mean, you can't become a cop overnight, but you can develop so many skills that you don't have yet.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Or learn to tell the story that you can develop those skills pretty quickly, and here's how I would do it given the chance, [00:49:00] stuff like that.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. And the story you tell about yourself, it's huge. It's kind of everything. So this is a dilemma that every single candidate finds themselves in, how to know what's really happening when things don't go their way, how to get meaningful feedback when they need it most. And it sounds to me like these interviewers aren't really telling you the full story.

Maybe it really is as simple as the other person had police experience, which we suddenly need right now. I guess that makes a lot of sense.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But that could also mean that your story was not quite as compelling as it could have been for them to overcome that person's experience.

Jordan Harbinger: Or that they really shined in the interviews and connected on a personal level with the hiring manager, or that they had a relationship with somebody at the company that put them over the edge.

I'm speculating obviously, but it would be great if these companies called you and said, "You have A, B, and C qualities we loved. We didn't see D, E, and F. That's where we'd focus." But they're not going to do that. So you're left with a few options. Option one is you go out of your way and be slightly pushy with these hiring managers and get the feedback you need.

This is a bit awkward, but we've heard from listeners who have done this and gotten great notes. They're literally like, "Hey, listen, between you and me, totally off the record, I could really [00:50:00] use some feedback on how this went so I can get better. Please tell me how this went and where I could improve." It takes work and tact, and the hiring manager also has to be willing to talk, but it is doable, and it can be a game changer Option two is you try to get feedback from other sources, friends, family, peers, career coaches.

That's pretty straightforward. Option three, you look inward. You do a postmortem on your interviews. You consider all the signals and feedback you've gotten up till now. You connect the dots yourself. Of course, ideally, you do all three, but this is the work we need to do in order to get an accurate picture here.

So my main question for you is, if you are being brutally honest with yourself, when you get quiet, replay your interactions, really listen, where do you suspect you need to develop? For example, are there any moments from your interviews that tug at you? Maybe a moment where you went, "Oh, I don't know if I'm really landing this answer.

Uh, kinda feel like I'm bullshitting right here." Or, "I'm doing my best, and I can see the hiring manager just zoning out a little bit." Those are usually good pointers to areas we need to develop. Another idea, I would [00:51:00] study the person who did get the job if you can. Maybe you can ask around about them or check 'em out on LinkedIn.

You might learn something interesting, what experience they have that you don't, how they present themselves, how they brand themselves. LinkedIn is a personal branding extravaganza. I'm not saying you should mimic this person or anything like that. That's probably a losing strategy. But this could be another good source of data.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Another idea, since you're playing with AI, what if you typed up some notes about your job hunt or you recorded a voice note and dropped it into Claude or ChatGPT or go back to NotebookLLM, the good, the bad, you know, the sticking points, the questions you have right now, and just asked it to give you an assessment and maybe some next steps and resources to keep developing?

I feel like you could easily turn an AI platform into a, like a kind of career coach. I mean, it is going to get some stuff wrong, but at the very least, it'll point you to some next steps. You know, here maybe there are a few practices or exercises or good books or maybe some communication templates for reaching back out to these hiring managers, you know, like following up, asking for feedback in the right way, stuff like that.

Just an idea. It could be a [00:52:00] cool use case as well.

Jordan Harbinger: It's a great idea. But look, another tough fact about the job search is that so much of it ends up being about personality, vibe, relationships, in a way that's, quote-unquote, "unfair." A few people over the years have written us saying exactly that, and I can see why.

I used to think like that, too, and it can be a tough pill to swallow for people who put a lot of stock into their credentials. But in another way, it's exciting because that's another dimension of this process that you control, and it, it's a skill like any other. We are tribal creatures, all of us. We want to work with people we like, people we identify with, people who make us laugh.

So yeah, absolutely keep working on your skills, but I would also encourage you to make sure that you're shining just on the level of personality and personal style and connections Are you relaxed and inviting when you're in these interviews, or are you a little serious and task-oriented? Are you able to chat and have a laugh a little bit during the interview, or are you all business?

Are you cultivating relationships at these companies or just hoping the hiring manager you happen to meet with likes you? Who's rooting for you in the organization? What social capital are you coming in with? [00:53:00]

Gabriel Mizrahi: Are you telling your story and answering their questions in a way that makes them lean in, that makes them really want to invest in you?

I think that matters.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. Are you going into these interviews feeling a little insecure about taking time off to have kids and having lost out on a few jobs, or are you going in there really psyched to figure out what they need and how you can meet that need? All of this stuff really matters. I would be remiss if I didn't do a shameless Six Minute Networking plug here.

This is literally what the course is for, both to open doors to the interviews and to make sure that they stay open so you can walk through them, sixminutenetworking.com. It's really simple stuff. You can start right now developing and maintaining those relationships. In fact, on that note, here's a somewhat crazy idea.

What if you reached out to the person who got the job, the one with the police experience, and you were like, "Hey, I was interviewing for the events job. Congratulations on getting it. I can see why you were a great fit. I'm super intrigued by your background. I would love to connect and have a quick phone call if you're up for it."

Whatever version of that feels right to you, if you can even find out who this person is, of course. You never know where that might lead. Maybe in six months, that person is in a position to hire [00:54:00] someone else, or they have relationships at other companies and they make an intro, or they fill you in on what these companies are looking for from candidates and how to prep.

In fact, when I was a lawyer, one of the things they had us doing, 'cause we were recruiting, they were like, "Oh, Jordan, you went to Michigan. Can you jump on this call with this other guy who's a few classes below you that we might hire?" And I would jump on the phone and be like, "Hey, Andrew, it's Jordan Harbinger.

I don't know if you know me." And they're like, "Oh yeah, I r- I think I remember you. You're a couple years ahead of me." I'm like, "Yeah, you're thinking about coming to Thatcher, Pratt & Wood, huh?" And like chatting it up because the company was like, "Oh, this guy will feel more comfortable if somebody he maybe knows is on the call."

And when I got recruited, it was like, "Oh, Jeremy is over here and go say hi to him." And he was like, "Oh, Jordan, hey, let me q- sort of walk you in the door." And as you guys might remember from the show, I did my first interview with this law firm while the interviewer was eating a sandwich, 'cause I didn't schedule the interview.

I was just walked in. And he's like, "If you're willing to talk to me while I cram this Subway sandwich in my face, then we can do the interview." And it was like [00:55:00] 10 minutes of, "Yeah. Well, uh, okay, you want to do this? Uh, do you watch football?" "Yeah." "What, what do you think of New York? You'd probably be stuck in New York.

You cool with that?" "Yeah." "All right. You want some Diet Coke? We got Diet Coke in the back." You know, like that was, that was the interview 'cause Jeremy, who was like my old roommate's new roommate or something like that, was like, "Oh, Jordan's cool. We've hung out twice." You know? It was like that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Really do be like that sometimes, yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Look, different market, right? That was law firms going, "We will hire anybody with a pulse as long as they're not a s- super strong liability risk or a total jerk." That was the bar back then. So it's different now, but it's still, the whole getting walked into the door thing, do not underestimate that. But yeah, if somebody reached out to me like that, I think I'd respond very well, and honestly, why not?

It's not any crazier than reaching out cold to somebody you have zero connection with at all. But listen, all this said, so much of the job search really is about luck. Your skills have to align with their needs. You have to be the right candidate at the right moment. There's always a mystery to some degree.

And in a [00:56:00] sense, there is a lot of stuff that's out of your control, so the best strategy is just to generate as many dots as possible, get as many at bats as possible to maximize your chances of getting lucky.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly. I think all you need at the end of the day is one company to say yes, but you have to kiss a lot of frogs.

Way more frogs than you want to have to kiss.

Jordan Harbinger: Frog kissing. That is what a lot of life is. I'm pumped for you, my friend. You sound like a very diligent, responsible, hardworking person who has a ton to offer. I love that you're asking these questions and opening yourself up to as many sources of guidance as possible.

It's inspiring really, and I know it'll lead you to great places. Good luck. By the way, you can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Try to use a descriptive subject line. That makes our job a whole lot easier. If you've been disinvited from your brother's wedding because your brides-to-be had a falling out, you're trying to get your husband to realize that he was raised by narcissists who might abuse your infant son, or you suspect your wife might be in the closet and you want to help her come out before you separate, whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up Friday at jordanharbinger.com.

We're here to help, and we keep every email [00:57:00] anonymous. All right. You know what's almost as great as a life-changing career opportunity? A discount code on a mattress and/or living trust and/or some supplements. We'll be right back. This episode is brought to you in part by Lufthansa. When people talk about travel, they usually focus on the destination, the hotel, the restaurants, all the stuff that happens after you land, but the flight is part of the experience, too.

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If you want to keep up with the show and the wisdom from it, it's a great place to come and do that. You can sign up at jordanharbinger.com/news. All right, next up.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. It's always astounded me how during an episode you guys will say something like, "That was episode 1192 with so-and-so," for anyone wondering.

I've always figured it was a note written beforehand, but we've all learned that Jordan's memory has washboard abs.

Jordan Harbinger: That is a very charitable way to say that I have the memory of Dory from Finding Nemo, but okay.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Your memory is rocking a vicious six-pack, my dude.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, the reframe I didn't know I needed.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Do you plan ahead of time the episodes you might reference during an interview, or do you just know them by memory?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, we definitely do not know them by memory. When one of us says this, we, uh, [01:00:00] we either thought about a related episode when doing the prep and made a note to include it, or, and this is more often the case, I'd say we'll think of it in the moment, quickly Google it, and then mention it, and through the power of editing, it sounds like it was in the moment.

And/or Gabe will text me while I'm talking with the episode number that he looked up so we don't have to stop, so I got old Gabe GPT over here helping out.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Another question. If you're cool with it, can you explain how you get ad revenue and how we can support you as listeners? Use your promotion codes, got it, but is that it?

Jordan Harbinger: That is the main way, yes. And as I say all the time, it is so huge for us. It's literally the reason we can do this show, and it means the world to us when you guys use our sponsor codes when you need to get something for the house or buy a gift or whatever. It's just absolutely huge. Nothing replaces it.

That's why we have the deals page and everything to make it as easy as possible.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Sometimes I find myself listening to the ad break because I think it could potentially help, but I'm never sure. If I'm going to listen to Jordan sing the Homes chime, I'd like to think that there's an upside.

Jordan Harbinger: So some places check, like, did the ad get delivered, but if you're forwarding through it, [01:01:00] it's still delivered because it's downloaded.

I mean, I don't know if there is some magical metric out there that measures whether people fast-forward through the breaks as well, and that factors into things somehow. I don't think that there is yet. But when you stick around and listen, you get the codes, you hear me talk about products that I have personal experience with, and I hope that gives you confidence and trust that I really genuinely believe in the sponsors and everybody wins, so that's why I hope you stick around.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Finally, sometimes Jordan responds to Gabe reading the letter in real time, interjecting with outrage. For example, "What? Oh my God, this is heartbreaking. I can't believe this. This person is crazy, full stop," which sounds like he's responding to something as he's listening to it with us. But then later he'll say something like, "We wanted to run this one by Corbin Payne," making it clear that they've already done their due diligence on it.

Or his answer includes some sort of script he's offering the writer about how to respond to someone they're writing in about How often does Jordan go into a question blind versus with a plan? Anyway, just thoughts that came to mind. They're very low stakes, which is why I've never asked before, but I just got the itch this [01:02:00] morning.

Signed, Pretty chuffed to learn some stuff about how often you're truly off the cuff.

Jordan Harbinger: Fair question, and I'm happy to pull back the curtain a little here, even though part of me is like, "Do most people really care about the process? Just enjoy the sausage, bro." So the answer is, yes, sometimes I really do go into a letter totally blind.

It happens all the time. This is how I used to do the show in the early days all the time, 100% of the time. It was fun to improvise, but there were obvious downsides. However, over the years, your letters have gotten more and more complex and more and more nuanced and longer, and they've demanded better and better answers.

Then Gabe came on board, uh, what, five or six years ago now?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Almost six years, yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Six years ago, let's say, and our workflow changed a lot. Gabe, I'm about to pull back the curtain on you for a moment. I hope that's cool.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, no problem. I'm just over here watching some porn.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So just let me know when you're done talking, okay?

I

Jordan Harbinger: figured. Power Googling not safe for work content that's going to make me insecure about my thighs.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Good luck proving it, dude. My brows- my browser history has washboard abs, so.

Jordan Harbinger: You clear that cache, bruh. Catch

Gabriel Mizrahi: me

Producer Jase: outside, how about that?

Jordan Harbinger: That's right. Man, that's so good, the [01:03:00] mantra of every dude who rubs one out on a shared family laptop from the laundry room during his lunch break.

Anyway, so the thing about Gabe, he's big on the prep. This is a man who preps. And when he joined the show, he brought a lot more research and diligence than we had before. He made a big push to build our community of subject matter experts. He likes to take a lot of notes and come in with at least some general take, and all of that just sort of rubbed off on me.

I learned to like that way of working, even though I'm a very improvisational person, as you guys know. So it just kinda became our process, both of us prepping individually mostly, but sometimes together when it's a really tough question, and then just flowing when we sit down to record. But as you can tell, we still feel our way through things and banter and stumble into digressions and stories and stuff like that.

So this is one of the things I appreciate about my collaboration with Gabe. I think we balance each other in a lot of ways. My chaos builds on his prep, and his prep grounds my chaos.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. That's a nice way to put it. It really is an interesting yin-yang, you and I.

Jordan Harbinger: So what you're usually hearing on Feedback Friday is a combination of rigorous prep, because that's what you guys deserve, frankly, and [01:04:00] spontaneity.

And actually, just to touch on something really powerful I've learned in my career, it is the rigorous prep that allows for the spontaneity. I'm always surprised by how hard you have to work in order to truly be in the moment and be effective. But I digress. But about those questions where I'm reacting to the letter even though I've clearly already read it, you're actually hearing two things there.

One thing is I enjoy reacting to the letter as if it's my first time hearing it, and sometimes I'm remembering my reaction the first time I read it and I'm just restating it, because it kinda puts us all in the same position. I don't know how that started. It was just organic. But a bunch of you told me you like when we do that, and I guess that's one way that we get to be playful within the prep.

The other thing you're hearing though, like you just said, my memory has washboard abs. My cognitive transverse abdominis is jacked. So sometimes when Gabe is reading the letter, I am genuinely reacting as if it is my first time hearing it. That probably doesn't make me look very good, but it's the truth.

I'll read a letter, make some notes, turn it over in my mind, and then days later, a million things have happened since [01:05:00] then. We read it together days later and I'll be like, "Oh, oh, his sister ratted him out. I didn't catch that the first time." Or, "Wait, his mother said that? I totally forgot about that." So it's kind of ridiculous, I know, but that is actually how my mind works or doesn't work.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It is such a funny thing. I end up spending more time with the letters than you do because I pick them and I edit them and then I read them several times while I'm taking notes. But even I hear new things and then when we read them together, because after I've thought about a story and then I reread it for the fourth, fifth, sixth time or whatever, the details do take on new meaning for me anyway.

And I'll start making new connections and then it's like I get to enjoy your stories all over again on a new level. And then sometimes Jordan will seize on a certain detail in a letter. That also makes me pay attention in a new way. It's like, you know when you're hanging out with a really good friend and then all of a sudden you're aware of like how funny something is that you would have missed when you're alone or they point something out and you're like, "Oh yeah, that is weird.

That is really beautiful. That is hilarious." You know, that just makes the letters new for me as well all over again.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's part of our collaboration, I think. Seeing these letters through multiple prisms. It's an [01:06:00] interesting thing doing a show like this. Part of the magic, and I also have to give a shout out to Jase, our editor, who's just a wizard in the edit.

So much of what is seamless about a great show is the editor's touch. Part of the magic is what he does to create this thing every week without pointing to the wires. But it's also kind of cool to pull back the curtain a little bit. And who knows, maybe our way of working gives you some ideas for how to do your own work.

And yeah, you know, kind of what Feedback Friday is all about, learning from one another all the time. So thank you for ruining everything with your questions. Uh, no, I'm glad you're enjoying the show. Thank you for asking this question in our subreddit. I think that's kind of a fun place to discuss these kinds of things and other people, so many people had the same or similar questions and upvoted it that we decided to bring it here on the show.

Speaking of our subreddit, if you want to join us over there, it's on the Jordan Harbinger subreddit if you are a redditor. Lot of cool conversations happening over there. You know what? I'm definitely improvising on the fly and have not prepared at all. This ab pivot. We'll be right back.

If you liked this episode of Feedback [01:07:00] Friday and found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, that is take a moment, support the sponsors. They're all searchable and clickable on the website at jordanharbinger.com/deals. And hey, if you can't find a code, something's not working for you, do email me Jordan@jordanharbinger.com.

Somebody here will dig up that code for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show. Now, time for the recommendation of the week.

Lip Filla Clip: I am addicted to lip filler.

Jordan Harbinger: My recommendation of the week is, and this is going to sound kind of silly as many of these are, but it's the paint your own pottery places.

You know, you pass these all the time and you never go in there. A little while back, one of Jayden's friends from school invited him to go to one of these places. I think it was just like she was taking her kids and she's like, "Oh, come join us." Jen's like, "Hey, do you want to come? We're kind of close by right now."

And I was like, "I'll stay in the car." She's like, "This is going to be like 90 minutes long at least." And so I was like, "All right, I'll go in." And she's like, "Do you want to make a clay thing?" And I was like, "No, I'm just going to hang out." So the kids are painting, Juniper and Jayden. They made piggy [01:08:00] banks, which they still use months later.

And then Jen's like, "Ah, just make something." So Jen and I got into it. We, we made each other wedding ring holders out of these little things they have sort of pre-made for you to paint. And now it sits on my desk and I put my ring on it from time to time, and it's just a really cute thing that I see every day that my wife made for me and I made one for her, and she's got hers in her bathroom.

And I noticed that my dad actually still uses a crappy bowl that I made for him in maybe kindergarten or something like that as a ch- a change bowl. And I remember they were like, "Do you want to glaze this?" And I was like, "No." So it's like this unglazed, painted solid blue only with holes in it, terrible, terrible clay bowl, and it's 40-plus years old on his desk that I made for him.

You know, I was thinking the other day, 'cause I went over to their house. They moved across the street a few years ago. The bowl is still on his desk. So he moved to California with this bowl that I made for him 40 years ago, and I just realized like, wow, this bowl means something to him. This is a guy who got rid of everything, right?

He [01:09:00] basically kept like a chair, I think a bed, his desk, and his clothes, and then he brought this crappy change bowl. So I'm kind of a fan of this. You pay a lot. It's expensive. It's something small, but what you get is super cute, and it's a fun thing to do together as a family or a friend group So that's actually my rec of the week.

Go overpay for a crappy ceramic bowl and it might just become a family heirloom and a fun memory.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Color me mine. How about that?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. How about that? All right, next up.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hello Jordan and Gabe. I'm a fairly new listener of the show, last three months, but I love every minute of it. I feel like a genuinely better person and more critical thinker ever since I started.

I am at a great point in my life with college kicking off and I'm starting to make meaningful relationships that I hope will benefit me later in life as well as right now. So cool.

Jordan Harbinger: Amazing to hear my friend. Super proud of you. Yes, I've read this letter once before, but I literally just heard that as if it were the first time.

And yes, I am genuinely proud of you. Gabe, this is weird and I am super in my head about responding in real time. I can tell. It, this is genuine you guys. I swear I don't remember most of this stuff by [01:10:00] the time I see it here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I am also incredibly blessed to have never experienced depression or a depressive episode or severe instability.

I am almost always happy, which might be some different disorder I don't know about.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, well now you're just bragging. No, that's, that's fun. I mean, you're lucky. That's great. Good for you.

Gabriel Mizrahi: At college I have an awesome friend group of people I've known since high school. What brought us together is a community theater that we all perform in and we fall a bit into the dramatic stereotype in that most of us are very open about hardships and mental health struggles.

Everyone in the group except me and this one other guy have talked about a depressive episode and all the others talk about how they relate. But when they turn to me, I have nothing to say. Maybe I'm misunderstanding things, but it feels like this is really becoming a wedge in my relationships with all these people.

I currently just say something along the lines of, "I'm so sorry that happens to you. Do you want to talk about it?" But that feels more ineffective as time goes on.

Jordan Harbinger: Honestly, that's a great place to begin.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, the perfect place I would say.

Jordan Harbinger: I wonder why that's becoming more and more ineffective. Do they want something [01:11:00] different from this listener?

Do they sense that they don't mean it or they want to just complain about being depressed but not really talk about it? I'm confused.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Or is this all perfectly fine but our friend is just being like a, maybe a tad paranoid that they're not fully there for them or something? Anyway, they go on. I really want to be able to make these friends feel like they are seen and heard, but I don't know how to do that without truly knowing what they go through How would you talk to these friends about this difficult topic without them feeling distant or unheard?

And how would you tackle conversations like this in general? Signed, Hitting a Spot of Trouble as I Increasingly Fumble When It Comes to My Friends' Mubble Fubbles.

Jordan Harbinger: Interesting question. So first of all, you sound like a solid friend, that you want the people around you to feel seen and heard, that you want to be there for them, especially since you haven't struggled in the same way.

It's very touching. I'm sure it means a lot to them. As I said a moment ago, when you see a friend struggling and you say, "I'm sorry you're going through it," or, "You went through that. Do you want to talk about it?" I think that's a really thoughtful way to respond.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Truly one of the kindest things I think you can say to someone.

[01:12:00] Really, do you want to talk? I'm here to listen, whatever you want.

Jordan Harbinger: I agree. Uh, assuming you mean it, of course. You're not just saying the words to say the words and check a box, or you say it and they start opening up and you either check out or you start doing something else, like trying to talk them out of it or you're giving them advice too quickly or something like that.

I assume you're not doing any of that. It's just, it's good to keep an eye on those things, and if you offer and the other person doesn't take you up on it, that's perfectly all right. You can let it go or y- you trust they'll take you up on it when they're ready, or you can say, "If you ever want to talk, I'm here."

Honestly, I'm not sure what you're supposed to do beyond that. Once they engage, we could talk about how to listen, how to relate, how to be in a tough conversation, how to be loving and supportive, but all that, it begins by just taking an interest in them in the first place, which you seem to be doing.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, it's the relating part that our friend seems to be getting hung up on. Like they said, "I really want to be able to make these friends feel seen and heard, but I don't know how to do that without truly knowing what they go through." There's something in there.

Jordan Harbinger: But that's what empathy is, isn't it?

Relating to and identifying with somebody even when you haven't been through what they've [01:13:00] been through. It can be hard sometimes. It's not impossible.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I wonder if that might be where they're getting stuck, though. Like, can I really be there for someone if I haven't been through exactly what they've been through?

But I'm with you, Jordan. Yes, of course, and how amazing that we have the capacity to do that, but we have to develop that capacity Especially if it doesn't come naturally to us, and you might have to listen for a little while and learn more about the other person to really be there for them. So if you're struggling to understand what it is your friends deal with, then that's a great opportunity to say, "You know, it's weird, but I haven't really experienced depression before," or, "I haven't dealt with it the way you have, so can you explain a little more?

What does it feel like? How do you cope with it? What do you want from other people when you're feeling down? You know, how can I help?" And then again, just listen. I'm sure that would mean a lot to them, too.

Jordan Harbinger: That's a nice approach for anything really, not just depression. Gabe, I wonder if maybe our friend here is a little too concerned about supporting their friends.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, interesting. That's kind of what I was getting at a moment ago, but what do you mean by that?

Jordan Harbinger: Well, okay, it's super sweet they want to be there for them. I think that comes from a genuine place. But I'm also hearing almost, like, an anxiety about not being there for them in the, quote-unquote, [01:14:00] perfect way.

I, I don't know.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I'm hearing that, too.

Jordan Harbinger: There's genuinely wanting to connect and understand and worrying that you're not showing up in the best way for people. I get that. I appreciate that. And then there's this, like, ob- uh, obsessing or spinning out that you're failing your friends if you don't get them to talk about something or they don't see you as a person that they can talk to about a certain thing, and I, I wonder if both might be happening here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, that's a really good observation. And so if there is a bit of that second anxiety, what is that about? Is our friend worried that these people are not going to stay close or they're not going to view our friend a certain way if they don't open up? Does our friend feel some guilt or maybe even, like, a perverse envy that they don't experience depression in the same way?

Does our friend have some anxiety about being, just being different from them? Like, "Huh, I don't struggle with the same stuff that they do, so am I really in the tribe or, you know, is my place in this friend group a little precarious because I'm not depressed like all the theater kids and, you know, I'm a- I'm not able to be in their depression with them, so where do I stand?"

Jordan Harbinger: That's interesting. You know, now that you put it like that, I have a strong feeling that the last thing is playing a role, especially at this age. What, 17, 18? Yeah. [01:15:00] Hanging with friends who go back all the way to high school. I think in that life stage, also as an adult, but especially as a young adult, this question of, "Do my friends and I share the same neuroses, the same struggles?"

It feels very important, and if you're on a different wavelength in whatever significant way, can feel a little scary.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, well put. Whereas the capacity for both difference and empathy hopefully increases as you age and you can stay close with people who are very different from you. But you hopefully also don't care as much about belonging in that way.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, that's kind of where my mind is going. I don't want to be overly tough here because this sounds like a sweet group of people, actors, community theater people. Probably very sensitive, very extra, very in their feelings, and that probably creates a lot of intimacy, vulnerability, a- and that's sweet. But if your connection with these friends, if your belonging in this group as a whole depends largely on your mood states or your ability to get your friends to open up to you about their struggles and that's the main thing these friendships hinge on, I'll put it this way, that's something to keep an eye on

Okay, I'm not telling you to ditch your friends or anything like that, but I, I [01:16:00] also wouldn't work overly hard to stay close with people or fight for a certain place in a friend group if that's the main connective tissue. And I get why it's a big part of this community. I get why you're concerned about it, but it's also just- Something interesting to notice why exactly this feels so urgent to you and how that shapes the dynamics of the group.

But honestly, that's something I would say to anybody in any friend group because the motivations and politics of friend groups get tricky sometimes, and it's, it's okay to grow in different directions.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's okay to grow in different directions, and it's also okay to trust that you can have different mental health than these people and still be a valuable part of the group.

You know, you can still love these people and you can still be loved even if your mind works differently.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, but I love that you want to nurture your relationships. I love that you want to be there for people. That quality is going to serve you so well in life. But you might be learning about the limit of your influence on other people, the limit of your ability to get them to relate to you in the way that you want.

It's important to remember that it's also up to other people to decide whether to accept your interest and empathy [01:17:00] and respecting those signals. My feeling is keep being kind, keep being curious, keep being non-judgmental and available and all that good stuff, and keep listening, and you truly can't go wrong.

Thanks for joining our show, fam. Well done on running with everything you're learning and for sharing your question with us. We need more emo community theater nerds in our community. Keeps me and Gabe in our fee- in the feels. Good luck. Don't forget to check out our episodes, David Royce, Dr. Courtney Conley, Todd Rose, and our Skeptical Sunday on the moon if you haven't done so yet.

Speaking of emo, the moon. So dramatic, am I right? Show notes and transcripts on the website at jordanharbinger.com. Advertisers, deals, ways to support the show on the website as well at jordanharbinger.com/deals. I'm @JordanHarbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn.

Gabe's on Insta @GabrielMizrahi. If you want to see great waterfalls, some amazing waterfalls and barefoot feet pics. Actually, you might make some extra money from that. I don't know. Do I get a cut if people start buying your feet pics? We'll discuss. This show is created in association with [01:18:00] PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tadas Sidlauskas, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi.

Our advice and opinions are our own. I might be a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Consult a qualified professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today.

In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. You probably don't picture drug cartel operations running through rural America, but that's exactly why they're so hard to stop. Mariana Van Zeller breaks down how these networks hide in plain sight using everyday systems and small-town blind spots to stay one step ahead.

JHS Trailer: I've been covering the cartel for many years now, and I sort of wanted to do a story about cartel presence in the US. And once we started researching it, I realized that actually the story should be about all the things that we don't know about cartel presence in the US, including the fact that they're in small-town [01:19:00] America.

So one of our first shoots for that episode was in Georgia, and we started with the murder investigation of this woman who was tortured, and they cut off her fingers and then eventually killed her, and she was killed by the cartel, and it was in the middle of nowhere in Georgia. And then we followed the investigation and realized that they're everywhere and particularly like to operate in small town America.

Less law enforcement, easier to hide the drugs and have their distribution networks. You know what was so interesting about that story is that in order to get access to the cartel in the US, we actually had to go down to Mexico and gain permission and have them say yes. Because a lot of these groups have people that work for them in the US.

Obviously, the US is the end goal where they're sending their drugs. And so eventually he said, "Okay, we've got you," and it was all set up and we were supposed to meet them in Minnesota. We get there and then we waited and waited and waited for days, and the guy never showed up. I want people to see many of these traffickers...

Again, we [01:20:00] do not condone what they do. It's difficult to even empathize, but the majority of the people that I talk to are people just like you and me that don't have the opportunities or the luck that we have. I try to always do my job as a journalist, which is hold people accountable.

Jordan Harbinger: If you want to hear how cartels hide in plain sight, check out episode 1302 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.