1340: ZYNs | Skeptical Sunday

1340: ZYNs | Skeptical Sunday

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Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to Skeptical Sunday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. Today I'm here with Skeptical Sunday co-host, writer, and researcher, and microphone breather, Nick Pell. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

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That'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit jordanharbinger.com/start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started Today on the show, if you haven't been living under a rock, you've seen people sticking little packets of nicotine into their mouths. They go by different brand names, but the most common one is ZYN.

Like Band-Aid and Kleenex, ZYN has basically just become the name for a little packet of nicotine that you put under your lip. Unless otherwise specified in this episode, by the way, when we say ZYN, we just mean nicotine pouch. But people generally fall on either side of one extreme about ZYNs. Either these little flavored packets are just kicking your addiction from one side of the street to another and seducing kids with fruit and mint flavors, or they're the second coming of Jesus and the best thing you can put into your mouth, chock-full of vitamins and minerals, and necessary for a successful and fulfilling life.

So what's the real story behind these addictive little packages that seem to have popped up absolutely everywhere over the last few years, from Silicon Valley startups to Sun Belt construction sites? Here today to help me tackle this topic in the nick of time [00:02:00] is writer and researcher Nick Pell. As anyone who has listened to any of Nick's episodes knows, he is a man...

Well, you love nicotine, right?

Nick Pell: I do, and I think that it's worth discussing the health benefits of nicotine.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay, so Nick thinks that smoking is good for you.

Nick Pell: I don't. Uh, I do, however, think that we lost something important socially speaking when everyone quit smoking. A really small example is the loss of one-on-one mentorship time with your boss and, and people can laugh, but it's a real thing.

I learned some of the most important professional lessons of my life ripping heaters with the boss. So, you know, you can say the health benefits outweigh this.

Jordan Harbinger: I'm going to say the health benefits outweigh this.

Nick Pell: And you know what? That's a totally legitimate belief to have, but we should be honest about what we lost when health nuts decided that people couldn't smoke anywhere.

I mean, bars, are you kidding me? Like, bars are dedicated to adults behaving badly, and the effects of secondhand smoke are, are wildly overblown.

Jordan Harbinger: Huh, okay. Well, the CDC disagrees. [00:03:00]

Nick Pell: There are tons of studies that disagree with the CDC, and-

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. Yeah, maybe a topic for another time.

Nick Pell: I'm down when you're down. Uh, people...

Honestly, like the bar smoking ban is, people just don't want their clothes to smell bad. I, I, I'm completely unconvinced that people actually care about the health effects of secondhand smoke.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I mean, I'm kind of at, I don't want the boogers that have weird colors, and I don't want to have to wash my hair again before, and clothes, before bed and the next day.

Yeah. Anyway, this message was brought to you by R.J.R. Nabisco, makers of Marlboro.

Nick Pell: I, uh, I haven't smoked in going on 15 years. I used to... I would, like, grab a pack when I was traveling, but I lost the taste for it by 40 I switched to super strong menthol flavored vapes, which is frankly I enjoyed them more than cigarettes, and that's coming as a former two pack a day unfiltered Camel smoker.

Jordan Harbinger: Yikes. Yeah, you were really hardcore if memory serves. I remember hanging out in your old apartment. Speaking of having to wash your hair and clothes.

Nick Pell: Yeah, I was a smoking in my apartment with the windows closed kind [00:04:00] of guy. Uh, and you know, Camel unfiltered. If it's good enough to kill grandpa, it was good enough to kill me.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, but you don't even vape anymore now. You're just a ZYN guy.

Nick Pell: I like Rogues and Sesh. Actually I'm a kind of a Sesh guy now. Um, they're just other brands, you know, call me Joe the way I be Rogan.

Jordan Harbinger: Right. Moving on. Who is actually using ZYNs? What do we know about the typical ZYN user?

Nick Pell: Men are 88% of the market share according to a report from Nicocig.

Thus far, no one has made the Virginia Slims of ZYNs.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, those are the skinny cigarettes that old ladies and, well, gay dudes smoke.

Nick Pell: Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Jordan Harbinger: No.

Nick Pell: Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Whatever.

Nick Pell: Yeah. Uh, to the degree- That's the

Jordan Harbinger: market ...

Nick Pell: that ZYNs are marketed, they're heavily marketed and culturally adopted through masculine-coded channels like sports, fitness, finance, grit culture.

Jordan Harbinger: I do know a lot of gym bros, well, such as yourself, are hitting the ZYNs pretty hard.

Nick Pell: Yeah, man Wintergreen [00:05:00] ZYN first thing in the morning with a White Monster, it's... And you're hitting the iron, it's a little piece of heaven on earth.

Jordan Harbinger: That's got to taste like day three of a Vegas bender. That just looks, ugh.

What i- What about age? Because I definitely get the sense that middle-aged dudes are not the core demographic for ZYN, but now I actually have no idea.

Nick Pell: I think day three of a Vegas bender probably tastes like baby aspirin, if you know what I'm saying. Oh.

Jordan Harbinger: Dang. I do know what you're saying. Uh, man. All right.

Ugh. Daddy chill.

Nick Pell: The 19 to 30 age bracket is the fastest growing demographic in 2024 to 2025. Past year use, which is, you know, used it in the past year, within that age cohort doubled, and that's nearly 10% of young adults reporting use according to the University of Michigan.

Jordan Harbinger: Go Blue, obligatory.

Nick Pell: Maize and Blue.

Uh, who... Hey, congratulations on beating Yukon.

Jordan Harbinger: I wish I cared about that stuff, [00:06:00] 'cause people get so hyped up about it, but I can't even muster the energy to pretend. But thank you.

Nick Pell: I'm a UMass alum, so if UMass isn't going to win, I just want Yukon to lose, so you know, I got my wish.

Jordan Harbinger: Gotcha.

Nick Pell: Among 12th graders, use of ZYNs surged from 3% in 2023 to 5.4% in 2024, often as a discreet alternative to vaping, which is harder to hide in classrooms.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh. Yeah, that's definitely sketch. I remember teachers telling us not to drink coffee in school because we were too young and it might stunt our growth or something like that.

Nick Pell: Possibly worth noting, I was always the tallest kid in my class until I started drinking coffee. Uh, so-

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah ...

Nick Pell: you know, maybe the teachers were wrong.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, that anecdotal evidence is all we need for this, for Skeptical Sunday.

Nick Pell: Seriously, dude, I was like, I've been this tall since I was 13, and then it just- ... and then it just froze. Womp,

Jordan Harbinger: womp.

Nick Pell: Yeah, exactly.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, man.

Nick Pell: And my father's, like, six and a half feet tall. A lot of 12th graders are [00:07:00] 18, but I guess you have to be 21 to use nicotine legally now, which is weird.

I

Jordan Harbinger: see.

Nick Pell: I would have killed for little packets of nicotine in-

Jordan Harbinger: Middle school.

Nick Pell: Honestly, yes. In

Jordan Harbinger: middle school.

Nick Pell: Yes. I absolutely would have killed for these in, in middle school.

Jordan Harbinger: Gross.

Nick Pell: Adoption among those 45 and older is significantly lower. It's usually below 2%.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow.

Nick Pell: And that suggests older smokers are either sticking to cigarettes or haven't been reached by the digital marketing that often drives the pouch sales.

Jordan Harbinger: It could also just mean they've given up nicotine entirely though, right?

Nick Pell: Right. I know tons of guys who used to smoke but don't smoke anymore. Anecdotally, tons of older dudes at the gym are ZYNning. For what it's worth, about 35% of pouch users are former smokers.

Jordan Harbinger: What about by race?

Nick Pell: It's overwhelmingly a white thing.

Uh, 75- Yeah ... to 80% of the market is white, according to the Journal of the American Medical Association and the Centers for Disease Control. And it has a [00:08:00] certain amount of currency in high income, high education circles, like tech, law, finance, where smoking is socially radioactive.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, yeah.

Nick Pell: Chewing, that's a rural thing, but zins are urban and suburban overwhelmingly.

Jordan Harbinger: Chewing is chewing tobacco. Okay, well, maybe we'll get into that. But w- where did these things come from? Because I feel like they were just nowhere, and then suddenly they were just absolutely everywhere.

Nick Pell: So to understand zin, you have to understand snus. And Sweden has used snus, which is a moist, pasteurized tobacco powder tucked under the lip.

They've been using that since the 18th century. Now because snus is steam cured rather than fire cured like American dip or chew, it has much lower levels of carcinogens.

Jordan Harbinger: I've seen these around, and I kind of just assumed they were the same thing. Actually, I tried the Swedish version, 'cause my buddy Johan, there was another Swedish guy, and Johan, when we were exchange students, and we would go on these retreats or whatever, and we'd be [00:09:00] drinking.

And I remember they would get kind of wasted and put these things in, and oh my God, dude, I've never been so sick in my life. So first of all, you're putting in this, like, whiskey flavored pouch of tobacco, but you're wasted, and you've never had the multiplier effect before of having tobacco. Because I wasn't a smoker or anything, right?

So I'm just, like, drinking at age, you know, 17 or whatever in Germany. And we put these things in at, I don't know, 9:00 PM after drinking since, like, 5:00 or 6:00. And I did something, like chewed it, and it opened, and I was, like, swallowing all these little bits of it, and I was just absolutely so sick. Like head pounding, room spinning sick.

And I assume all Scandis have done that before at least once by mistake, but they were probably 12 when they started using these things. Yeah. So, like, whatever, and they were not affected by it. But I remember them wake, trying to get me up to go to a bar, and I was like, "I'm done." And they were like, "Dude, it's 8:30."

And I was like, "I can't move. I am totally wrecked." Like, no tha- And I woke up the next day just disgust... Like, I'd been hit by just many, multiple garbage trucks. [00:10:00] It was just terrible. I don't know where I'm going with this story, but basically, yes, I've experienced that, and they're not the same thing at all.

Nick Pell: Well, 12-year-old Scandinavians trying snus for the first time, uh, your pro tip from Jordan Harbinger is don't chew them.

Jordan Harbinger: Don't chew the pack.

Nick Pell: Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Don't chew the pouch.

Nick Pell: But zins aren't snus. And, you know, worth noting, Sweden has the lowest smoking rates of Europe and the lowest rate of tobacco related mortality in the developed world.

The problem is that snus still contains tobacco leaf, which causes brown staining on your teeth and a salty tobacco taste, and you have to refrigerate them. America- Really? ... never really took to it. Yeah, man. They're always in that little fridge.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, that's so weird. I guess I never really noticed that. Yeah, that would be a deal breaker if you were, I don't know, in the 1900s America working in the South.

You don't have the ability to refrigerate stuff. We don't like to do that if we don't have to- No ... around here, around these parts.

Nick Pell: So the breakthrough was white snus. In the early 2000s, [00:11:00] engineers at Swedish Match, the giant of Scandinavian tobacco, started experimenting with how to keep the nicotine but lose the tobacco leaf.

They eventually figured out how to extract nicotine salts from the plant and stable load them into food-grade fillers, uh, like cellulose, things like that. This created a white pouch that was shelf-stable, didn't stain your teeth, and didn't require spitting.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, maybe that's what I was doing wrong. I didn't...

Y- you're probably supposed to spit that stuff out. So you don't spit with ZYNs like you do with chewing tobacco?

Nick Pell: No. Uh, I mean, I spit them out when I'm done or I discreetly take them out of my mouth, but mostly I just spit them because it, you know, it's fun to spit things. Swedish Match test marketed ZYN in Colorado and Montana in 2014.

They targeted, like, outdoorsy guys, skiers, hikers, hunters. They wanted nicotine. They couldn't light a match in the wind, or they didn't want to carry a spit cup.

Jordan Harbinger: Huh, that's a lovely mental image. I can imagine [00:12:00] carrying around a cup of your own tobacco spit. That's just got to be a huge hit with the ladies. So you don't spit with a ZYN.

Nick Pell: No.

Jordan Harbinger: Or you do w- if you want it to be fun, but other things you have to spit.

Nick Pell: Well, I don't spit the spit out, I just spit the bags-

Jordan Harbinger: Oh,

Nick Pell: got

Jordan Harbinger: it.

Nick Pell: Got it, got it ... when I'm, when I'm done, you know? Like-

Jordan Harbinger: But with the other stuff, you can't even swallow the saliva that's soaked with the tobac- 'cause you'll get sick.

That's why I got so sick with that Swedish thing.

Nick Pell: And you tried to eat it.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, that w- Yeah. Yes. That's probably the real reason.

Nick Pell: All right. But you think about dip like you think about doing donuts in the mud with a rusty old truck.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes.

Nick Pell: And ZYNs are clean, they're white, they're odorless. It was the first tobacco product that you could use in an office cubicle or on an airplane, and no one was going to notice.

Jordan Harbinger: When did all this hit the American market again?

Nick Pell: By 2019, ZYN went national in the US, and growth was vertical. It moved from gas stations to these pockets of high-performance demographics that we're talking about.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, okay, so this is why I'm interested in this, because I [00:13:00] remember growing up and seeing these little plastic hockey pucks that would say, like...

I don't know, there was some brand, like Skull or whatever. Yeah. I don't... I can't really remember.

Nick Pell: Kodiak.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, yes. Kodiak, exactly. But this isn't the same thing, and I, I remember ZYN was so popular. Like, coders in Silicon Valley, guys on Wall Street that I m- used to know, who would do, you know, other stuff, they kind of view ZYNs more like caffeine than tobacco.

It's kind of more like Red Bull than a cigarette to them i, in, so f- where they sort of put this in their brain, where it sort of lives in their stimulant shelf. Does that make sense?

Nick Pell: Yeah, it does, and I think it's... you know, it kind of is. Um, in 2022, Philip Morris International, that's the company behind Marlboro, they bought Swedish Match for a staggering $16 billion.

Wow. This was a massive pivot for big tobacco, because now they finally got something they can sell that doesn't have, like, you know, a shelf date on when it's going to be either [00:14:00] illegal or the market's not going to exist anymore.

Jordan Harbinger: Right.

Nick Pell: Then you've got the promotion from the podcasters and social media personalities, some of whom might be getting paid, some of whom just like it, and that's what makes ZYN into a lifestyle brand.

Now, the marketing promotion blitz led to politicians like Chuck Schumer calling for federal crackdowns, while others defended it as the greatest harm reduction tool since the nicotine patch.

Jordan Harbinger: Virtue signaling time. I banned tobacco advertising on the show. I won't take vape sponsors, cannabis sponsors, even though I'm an occasional user of the, some of the gummy things and, and the like.

Nick Pell: Wait, what?

Jordan Harbinger: You didn't know that?

Nick Pell: No. I'm shocked, dude.

Jordan Harbinger: Look, if you're going to slowly ruin your life, at least do it efficiently. Speaking of bad decisions with great ROI, let's hear from our sponsors. We'll be right back

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Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Don't forget about our newsletter over at jordanharbinger.com/news. It is a great companion to the show. We take a gem from a past episode, write it up. It's an under two-minute read every Wednesday morning.

Again, jordanharbinger.com/news is where you can find it. Now, back to Skeptical Sunday. I'm surprised that you're... Well, I guess maybe because I do seem quite a square. I'm not like a, "Let me do a bunch of edibles while my kids are in bed and watch a movie," guy. I'm a, [00:17:00] "Holy crap, it's 1:00 AM. Why the hell am I not asleep?

Oh, it's because I'm ruminating about a tax audit. Well, there's a solution for that that's not going to give me a hangover, and it's half of one of these little purple gummy things that are probably expired by now." So I, I kind of have, like, a medicinal use for it, uh, as opposed to entertainment use. And but here's the thing.

No judgment for people who use it for entertainment. It's just, it's not my thing. Um, I don't use it for that because I don't really like it. It makes m- it has side effects for me that make me feel, like, paranoid and anxious. But somehow, if I'm already anxious, it doesn't, it takes that away. Don't ask me. I don't know.

I'm not a neuroscientist. But I u- I don't use it for entertainment because it'll make me curl up in the fetal position and not have any fun.

Nick Pell: The paranoia is part of the fun, man. And like- No. No ... you know, the pro- like, the reason I quit was because if I smoke pot Or hit the penjamin, as the, the youngins say.

I'm going to either go on a super productive tear for the [00:18:00] next three hours and get all kinds of stuff done, or I'm going to be like, man, staring at the wall right now rules. Yeah. And I don't get to, like, pick. And please don't write in telling me about strains. I know all about strains.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, exactly.

Nick Pell: I just don't get to pick.

It's like, oh man, the ceiling fan is awesome, or I'm going to get, like, a month's worth of stuff done in three hours.

Jordan Harbinger: That is so funny. Okay, so I... That was me in college, where it would be like, I really need to get this legal brief done. Last time I smoked a little bit of the same weed bag with this one guy, I was so productive, and I did a bunch of homework, and I briefed all these legal cases.

So I took a toke off of the thing the guys are smoking on the porch, and then it was like, oh my God, I need to call my mom and tell her I'm too high to do my law school- ... brief- case briefing. And then I was like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. What? I'm 23 years old. This is the worst idea ever. I need to lay down and go to bed and do this in the morning.

And I was... You're right. Like, I just... Don't write in and go, "Oh, it was sativa. It was hi- you know, hybrid this." No, it's just I r- it's a dice roll for me every damn time. Yeah. And [00:19:00] yeah, sometimes it's, oh my God, that made this movie so much funnier, and other times it's, I need to call this person that I said something somewhat rude to in, in 2004 and I need to explain myself.

Yeah. You know? And I'm just like, no. Don't. What are you doing? Um, so yeah, I, that's why it's medicinal for me. And if you look at, if anybody who's, like, a, a weed person looked in my little drawer full of gummies, they'd be sorely disappointed, 'cause everything is, like, two milligrams, not 20 milligrams, which is, like, the doses these guys are doing.

And it's, like, got CBD and CBN and all the stuff that just makes you drowsy and fall asleep. Like, that's what this is for. I have it in tea for when I have the flu or a cold. You drink it, and you just pass the heck out. So anyway, I know this is a, that's a different show. So I know you think there are health benefits to nicotine, but there are drawbacks too, even for something like ZYNs, right?

Nick Pell: Oh, there are absolutely drawbacks and health problems related to nicotine pouches, and being a grownup means deciding if you think the benefits outweigh the detriments. And while the evidence is scant, this is [00:20:00] after all a totally novel nicotine delivery system that we're talking about- I think it's pretty apparent to anyone paying attention that ZYNs are way healthier than smoking and probably vaping.

It was actually a doctor who told me to switch to ZYNs.

Jordan Harbinger: First of all, your doctor? What?

Nick Pell: Well, not my doctor, Jordan. I'm not a millionaire like you. I can't afford to go to the doctor.

Jordan Harbinger: Sad truth.

Nick Pell: Okay. I use ChatGPT to tell me if I have cancer.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh my gosh.

Nick Pell: No, it was a doctor from my church, and he basically told me vaping is terrible because God knows what's in any of that.

And he also said he knew that I was never going to quit nicotine and to just pick up ZYNs, which he also uses. So I did, and is it the same? No. I miss vaping sometimes, but I also don't have to deal with desperation for nicotine on top of wanting to vape and having, you know, vaping or smoking as my only means of obtaining the drug that I'm addicted to.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Nick Pell: From a harm reduction standpoint, it's just a no-brainer.

Jordan Harbinger: Right, yeah. I remember [00:21:00] researching this, and it's like particular- what is it called? Particulate lung damage. That's one of the things with vapes is it's like, and smoking, is it's like there's all these little tiny dust particles of c- or chemical particles landing in your lungs, and you don't have that with ZYN.

And even if you're ingesting some microplastics or something else, it's just totally different than having them coat your lungs several times a day. So- Yes ... all right. So and the craziest thing is people will just say it's just as bad as smoking. And I'm with you, man. Look, look, I'm not a doctor, but you kind of really only need to look at the types of damage th- that you get from smoking and go, "Okay, putting a little packet in your mouth that you don't swallow, it just like almost can't be-" And again, I'm open to being wrong, but God, it almost just can't be as bad as smoking.

I mean, there's s- you, you don't have fire involved that you're inhaling. I mean, there's so many things wrong with smoking.

Nick Pell: Smoking is just about the worst thing that you can do for your health, smoking anything. The thing about nicotine is, yes, it has negative health effects, but most of what was killing people with cigarettes was [00:22:00] not nicotine, and that's just one of the reasons why ZYNs have taken off.

Jordan Harbinger: What are some of the negative health effects? Because I g- I got a lot of negative feedback when I said nicotine was bad for you on a previous episode of the show. Actually, I think you might have even said that on a previous episode of the show. It was about vape. Oh, no, you know what? It was prob- pr- probably a vape episode.

Anyway, I was able to cite studies showing tumor growth with nicotine use, but it's a sacred cow for nicotine users, the idea that it's just totally not bad for you at all.

Nick Pell: Boy, isn't it amazing that addicts do lots of mental gymnastics to act like their addiction is a multivitamin?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Nick Pell: I can't imagine what kind of feedback you would get for doing a show saying that marijuana doesn't give you superpowers or gambling your life savings away isn't one valid life choice among any.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, you might hate my inbox, but okay, go with that theory.

Nick Pell: I'll bet I would because, you know, there's a reason I keep myself hidden from the adoring public out there.

Jordan Harbinger: So what are some of the other reasons that ZYNs took off?

Nick Pell: It's discreet. It doesn't make a [00:23:00] cloud like vapes. It doesn't require you spitting a grotesque brown liquid into a cup.

You pop them in, you spit them out when you're done, so you can be anywhere. You can be on a flight. You could be at your kid's school. You could be at a hospital. Any of these places, and still enjoy pure nicotine satisfaction.

Jordan Harbinger: Mm.

Nick Pell: They also don't smell.

Jordan Harbinger: Right.

Nick Pell: Which again, I will maintain to my death, that is the main thing non-smokers hate about cigarettes.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Nick Pell: Yes, that's it.

Jordan Harbinger: I still hate that when someone's smoking and I'm breathing that in. I'm like, "Do your gross smoking drug habit somewhere else." But, you know, yeah, I feel bad for

Nick Pell: them too. I will walk a mile to walk through a plume of secondhand smoke- Yeah, I know you lo- ... 'cause I

Jordan Harbinger: love it. You love it.

Nick Pell: It's an intangible.

You can't really deny that there's a certain amount of social cachet to it. There's the nootropic angle that's part of it.

Jordan Harbinger: You mean ZYNs, right, not smoking?

Nick Pell: Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: So for those who don't know, nootropics are basically drugs or supplements that allegedly im- improve cognitive function. Some guys in Silicon Valley love them [00:24:00] because they think they're going to give them a competitive edge at work.

Nick Pell: Yeah, I mean- ZYNs just became cool somehow.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Nick Pell: And don't ask me to explain why. It's just like the heart wants what it wants.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Well, the marketing departments have also done a really good job marketing an addictive drug. So th- those two, good marketing, addictive dr- in addictive drugs, they, uh, they work well together.

So all right. So you mentioned that this is better than smoking. How much better, and how do we know? I mean, we went through anecdotal crap like obviously it is, but you said there's not a ton of data.

Nick Pell: Well, I misspoke slightly. There, it kind of is a ton of data. The problem is that it's extremely time-limited.

So there's tons of studies about ZYNs, but people have been doing them for what, 10 years? Not even.

Jordan Harbinger: Right. So if there are delayed effects that take 30 years to study, we just don't have any idea what those are yet.

Nick Pell: Yeah. So take everything you're about to hear with a grain of salt, but it's still worth diving into.

To briefly remind people, the main killer from smoking is that you're inhaling [00:25:00] combustion. It's not the nicotine per se, it's the smoke. The nicotine is what keeps you coming back for more. You know, that and the rich, smoky flavor. Hell yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Are you sure you don't want a cigarette, man?

Nick Pell: I swear they changed the formula of my brand, so no.

But-

Jordan Harbinger: Uh-huh ...

Nick Pell: like I said, if I'm out somewhere and somebody's smoking, I'm walking through that cloud of smoke. My kid says that cigarettes smell like Laughlin, which is this, like, cheap, low-class knockoff version of Vegas near where I live. Love to see them catching strays on this episode about ZYNs. Well,

Jordan Harbinger: yeah, I was just going to say, now I'm going to get emails from people-

who are in Laughlin, and they're like, "It's not that bad. Vegas sucks. You can't park anywhere."

Nick Pell: Yeah, the average age of people in Laughlin is about 89 years old, so I wouldn't- ... worry too much about it, but-

Jordan Harbinger: Again, my inbox has all kinds of people in it.

Nick Pell: Cigarettes have a number of things that ZYNs don't have in them, like carbon monoxide and [00:26:00] tar.

They don't cause particulate lung damage that you mentioned earlier.

Jordan Harbinger: Right.

Nick Pell: So we know, even without a lot of studies, that at the very least ZYN is not going to have any of the health impacts related to these, which is mostly what people, what smokers are going to be worried about. They're not worried that nicotine's going to kill them.

Jordan Harbinger: Right. ZYNs aren't going to give you lung cancer or COPD, right? I think that's kind of one of the main thi-... I know a lot of people are worried about vague and nefarious chemicals in ZYNs, though, but how much is that a thing? Because I don't know, I'm, I'm also kind of scared of what would be in something like that.

Nick Pell: Okay, so first, cigarettes contain high levels of TSNAs, which are tobacco-specific nitrosamines. These are very potent carcinogens. ZYNs basically have none of these. ZYNs use pharmaceutical-grade nicotine salt. Independent studies have found that while some pouches contain trace amounts of TSNAs or heavy metals like nickel or formaldehyde, the [00:27:00] levels are significantly lower, often 90 to 99% lower than those found in combustible cigarettes or traditional dip or chew.

So it's basically it's not a thing.

Jordan Harbinger: Nice. Okay. That's pretty good news. And by the way, for people who are like, "That's wrong," there are sources in the show notes for every episode of Skeptical Sunday. 'Cause I was, I was like, "Oh, that's a bold claim," and then I see this little five next to it, so it's like, okay.

The other side of smoking is the cardiovascular damage. I can't see how ZYNs are going to hurt your lungs, right, 'cause you're not inhaling them, but isn't all of the, all these substances, are they causing damage to your heart somehow?

Nick Pell: So this is where s- things start getting tricky. Nicotine itself is a sympathomimetic drug, which means it mimics the fight or flight response.

Both zins and cigarettes increase heart rate and blood pressure. They cause vasoconstriction, which is the narrowing of blood vessels, and they increase arterial stiffness. The difference is this: [00:28:00] smoking adds carbon monoxide, which displaces oxygen in your blood and puts an immense strain on the heart.

Zin users avoid the carbon monoxide, but they still face the baseline cardiovascular strain of chronic stimulant use. That said, as somebody who has heavily abused both nicotine and caffeine, drinking a ton of coffee is way worse. Subjectively, I've never smoked or zin'd so much that I was sweating and my heart was pounding.

Jordan Harbinger: Huh, interesting. Okay, you should probably cut back on the coffee and White Monsters, dude.

Nick Pell: Probably. Uh, ZYNs can also cause gum bleeding and gum recession over time. Oof. Which definitely sucks, but it's not going to kill you.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Nick Pell: Not going to kill you or make it impossible for you to climb a flight of stairs.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay, you got me on that. I would definitely not like to lose my teeth, but I also would prefer it to carrying around a tube of oxygen with me everywhere that I go.

Nick Pell: Yeah, my wife used to work in a place that sold oxygen tanks. It's so grim, man. People will be [00:29:00] smoking cigarettes, carting those things around.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, my God. Isn't that, isn't that dangerous? They can't explode doing that, but they could catch fire maybe? I don't know.

Nick Pell: They could explode.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, my God.

Nick Pell: Yeah, and they're still not stopping.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, hopefully some people out there make the switch when they hear this episode. Wha- What are the downsides?

Nick Pell: People also get heartburn and really unpleasant hiccups.

I have to drink something when I pop a fresh one, or I get really gnarly hiccups.

Jordan Harbinger: Eesh.

Nick Pell: Chemically, the chemical profile's almost identical to nicotine gum. I think the difference is that nicotine gum is seen as a bridge to quitting, whereas, you know, ZYN is going to ZYN. If you're a smoker, switching to ZYNs is a massive net win for you.

I don't really think there's any room for debate on that.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay, but that doesn't make it harmless. It just, it's an improvement over smoking cigarettes.

Nick Pell: W- And the bar is on the floor, for sure.

Jordan Harbinger: Right.

Nick Pell: But before we wrap the health issues, I do also want to say it can mess up your sleep. I pop a ZYN after dinner.

That's my last one for the night. Because if I have one right before bed, boy, I'm going to have a bad [00:30:00] time. We should also point out that nicotine is a wildly addictive chemical, and if you're not already addicted when you start with ZYN, you soon will be. Lastly, we don't know the long-term effects of chronic pouch use, to say nothing of the flavorings or other additives in ZYN.

Now, here's where things start getting possibly a little uncomfortable. There are some health benefits associated with nicotine.

Jordan Harbinger: You've been dying to talk about this for, like, a year or more.

Nick Pell: Yes, since Nick Pell episode one, I've been dying to talk about

Jordan Harbinger: nicotine. That's right. He's like, "Oh, we should do a one about nicotine and why it's good for you."

So for those of you who don't know, me and Nick are, uh, obviously, we're good friends. We, I've been listening to him talk about how nicotine is good for you since, I don't even know, like, the first time we ever met. I mean, it's just one of your sort of running themes- Yeah. ... for your whole life, adult life.

Nick Pell: Yes. Um, I'm a big proponent of nicotine use, yes. Possibly because I've been heavily addicted for decades, and this is now like- Yeah ... my toxoplasmosis, where I'm [00:31:00] collecting cats, you know?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, possibly in giant, bold, underlined, yeah.

Nick Pell: But possibly also because I'm right, and it's actually good for you. There's a few different ways to break down the positive effects of nicotine, but we're going to start with purely physiological effects.

Nicotine in any form increases alertness, improves reaction time, suppresses appetites, and for some users, stabilizes mood.

Jordan Harbinger: What specifics do we know about the physiological effects?

Nick Pell: Okay, so alertness. A comprehensive meta-analysis of 41 double-blind, placebo-controlled studies found that nicotine has significant positive effects on alerting attention and sustained attention, which includes both accuracy and response time.

Unlike many other stimulants, nicotine's effect on attention isn't just a buzz. It specifically helps with what's called vigilance, which is the ability to stay focused on a boring task for a [00:32:00] long time, perhaps why cigarettes are so popular in China. The same meta-analysis found that nicotine consistently reduces reaction time in both smokers and non-smokers.

Studies using choice reaction time tests, where you have to make a decision before reacting, show that smokers or nicotine patch users often react 10 to 20 milliseconds faster than placebo groups, which doesn't sound like much, but is considered significant The same meta-analysis showed that nicotine significantly improves fine motor performance.

That's the steadiness and the speed of small finger movements. This is why pro gamers love it so much.

Jordan Harbinger: So it's basically steroids for professional gamers, esports people, et cetera?

Nick Pell: Yeah, that's not a bad way of putting it.

Jordan Harbinger: Appetite suppression seems obvious because it's a stimulant, and you're putting it in your mouth, and you probably don't want to have lunch while this thing is in your mouth.

Nick Pell: Yeah, everyone seems to gain weight when they quit smoking. That's part of [00:33:00] what's going on, but it's not the whole story. We talked earlier about nicotine's role as a sympathomimetic agent, which means it triggers a mild fight or flight response. That naturally deprioritizes hunger in your brain. In addition to this, it activates specific neurons that tell your brain you're not hungry.

Research also shows nicotine can increase a user's resting metabolic rate by 7 to 15%, and significantly reduces how much you think you want to eat. This is why some people might call it gas station Ozempic. Except I don't have to look like I'm dying, uh, when I take it. There's no direct fat burning, but it does mean that you want to snack less.

I pop one whenever I feel like I want to snack because I'm, like, bored. You know, like bored eating? I just take a ZYN.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. You mentioned mood stabilization. Generally, people are irritable when they're craving nicotine and can't get it, but I suspect you don't [00:34:00] just mean that.

Nick Pell: No, there's more going on here than popping a ZYN makes you stop being irritated about not having a ZYN.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay, good.

Nick Pell: For some people, nicotine stabilizes mood by modulating release of serotonin and dopamine, somewhat famously the only two things you actually enjoy. For regular users, this stability is often just the reversal of the irritability caused by being two hours late for the next dose. So this is an area where we j- we just need more research.

Jordan Harbinger: All right, we just spent 20 plus minutes talking about chemicals that own you. Now let's talk about stuff that works for you instead. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by My Profile Guru. Does your LinkedIn photo look like a mugshot from a true crime show? If you're looking like you're on Nightline on your LinkedIn, that's no good.

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This episode is sponsored in part by AT&T. You know why I love summer?

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Don't forget about our subreddit, the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. A lot of people on there with discussions about the show, [00:37:00] funny memes and threads, feedback, and a lot of great ideas.

If you like talking with show fans, or you think you might like talking with show fans, or you just want to yell at us, go ahead and check us out on the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. Now, back to Skeptical Sunday Is there any evidence that nicotine can help with bigger problems, like conditions people might have, I don't know, ADHD or something like that?

Nick Pell: There's some, but it's very limited. Nicotine has been shown to reduce ADHD symptoms by roughly 8 to 10% in some clinical trials. People with ADHD are statistically twice as likely to use nicotine, likely as a form of self-medication to increase dopamine levels that are naturally lower in ADHD brains.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, I didn't know that.

Nick Pell: Yeah, you just think of them as people who can't pay attention to things, but there's a dopamine thing going

Jordan Harbinger: on. Yeah, no, that's me, dude, for sure. I d- yeah.

Nick Pell: Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: This stuff is dangerous for me. The reason I haven't tried it is probably it's going to totally scratch the itch of me not being able to focus on something for a long period of time, but then I would be addicted to ZYN, or nicotine, and I'm like, "No, thanks."

[00:38:00] But I used to take Adderall, which is horrible for you, and I stopped taking that, but, like, I just deal with ADHD brain now, which, you know, kind of also sucks. So the idea that there's, like, a pouch I could put in my mouth that would cure that is, is tempting, but I, again, I don't want to be addicted to anything, really, but not nicotine either.

Nick Pell: Sure. It al- nicotine can also have some effect in preventing Parkinson's disease. Smokers have a lower risk of developing Parkinson's. I'm actually, like, curious if that's just 'cause they die sooner.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, yeah. Yeah, uh, yeah, we might have to... You might want to look that up. Oh, they don't live long enough to get it.

Oh, okay.

Nick Pell: There's some research that suggests nicotine may be neuroprotective for dopamine-producing neurons. Now, the Skeptical Sunday caveat to all this is that there's some evidence, at least in terms of the, the performance benefit, that they only apply to non-addicts. We did have that study earlier where smokers and non-smokers alike had the same benefits.

I don't remember seeing if that was regular smokers or if they just [00:39:00] handed somebody, like, a pack of Kools and were like, "Smoke them if you got them, Johnny, and let's take this test." But yeah, if you're a regular user, th- there's some chance all you're doing is getting back to baseline maybe.

Jordan Harbinger: I think the other thing to remember is that the benefits don't come in isolation.

You know, you're dealing with the health risks as well as the improved performance.

Nick Pell: Sure, but everything in life is a trade-off.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I... People are touting nicotine in general and ZYNs in particular as nootropics. Are there nootropic effects that we didn't cover?

Nick Pell: Well, we touched on them, but they're worth maybe calling out on their own, task initiation and reduced mental fatigue.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay.

Nick Pell: Task initiation is the cognitive ability to start a project without undue procrastination.

Jordan Harbinger: So getting down to things.

Nick Pell: Exactly. Nicotine aids this primarily through its impact on the mesolimbic dopaminergic system.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow, okay. What the heck is that?

Nick Pell: It's the brain's primary reward circuit that connects the areas responsible for processing emotions [00:40:00] with those that control action.

When you do something the brain perceives as beneficial, like having sex, taking a stimulant- This system releases dopamine to create a sense of pleasure and to teach, train you to repeat that behavior. Basically, nicotine triggers a direct release of dopamine. It essentially greases the wheels, making the brain feel like the task is more rewarding than it actually is, which lowers the mental barrier to starting.

Jordan Harbinger: So nicotine tricks your brain into thinking that starting a new task is going to be awesome even if it's just doing the dishes.

Nick Pell: Yep. The catch is that this is the most well-documented example of now you just need nicotine to get back to baseline. In terms of mental stamina, think of it this way. Mental fatigue is your brain's battery draining after a long day of work Nicotine is a kind of booster pack for that battery because it mimics acetylcholine, the [00:41:00] chemical your brain uses to stay alert and process information.

Jordan Harbinger: I can't remember where, but I read about how high-performance tech companies, people are using Adderall and, uh, modafinil, which is like that fighter pilot drug or whatever, to get through the day, and Xan is kind of like the last couple of hours.

Nick Pell: Modafinil is actually crazy because most, like, anti-sleep drugs are just stimulants that make you super jacked.

Modafinil, if I understand it correctly, cuts the wires between the part of your brain that tells you you're tired and the part of your brain that feels tired.

Jordan Harbinger: I tried it, 'cause people were like, "You've got to try this, it's amazing," and I didn't have any sort of effect where people were... Th- the people were, like, raving about it.

And I was like, "I'm not more productive, but you know what? I got super angry."

Nick Pell: Dude.

Jordan Harbinger: I got really cranky.

Nick Pell: This guy that I know, I'm so glad that I didn't take modafinil, 'cause I had a bunch at one point, and it was, like, the absolute period of my life when I should not have been taking modafinil. And this guy that I know was like, "Oh yeah, don't touch that [00:42:00] stuff.

It's like all the side effects of meth with none of the benefits."

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. All I did was get super angry, and I remember talking with a guy who's like, "Oh, I know tons of people that do this." The doctor basically that prescribed it was like, "What side effects are you having?" And I was like, "I'm super angry and I hate everyone."

And he's like, "Oh, that's really rare, but quite severe, and you should not take this, 'cause it only gets worse from here." 'Cause you get really dependent on it apparently, and he's like, and the side effects get worse. And he's like, "If you're getting that from, like, your first dose, you don't want to be hooked on this."

Like you said, like your friend said, side effects of meth. Right? I've never tried meth, and I never will, but, like, I was just kind of like, "Give it up. Fuck. This is stupid. Everybody's an idiot. This is stup- why am I doing this? I'm going to go yell at a stranger." And Jen was like, "You're not taking this ev- again.

This is awful."

Nick Pell: So for the guys who are doing the modafinil, Adderall stack, Xan is, like, yeah, you use it to power through the last part of the workday.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, but once it wears off, you get addicted and you just need it, like you said, to get back to baseline and function normally.

Nick Pell: Yeah. That's kind of the catch here.

I mean, I- I just love nicotine. [00:43:00] I love having the lovely feel of nicotine coursing through my, my filthy little aur- uh, constricted veins all day. But from the perspective of someone who doesn't, or doesn't use it at all, it may not make sense to pick up this habit. Maybe it's the ti- thing you indulge in if you have a tight deadline or you need a little extra focus.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, but then you're, you're running the chance of getting addicted, man.

Nick Pell: Absolutely.

Jordan Harbinger: So we talked a little bit earlier about harm reduction, which is generally something you only hear about, well, with much harder drugs. So what's the deal with harm reduction and nicotine?

Nick Pell: ZYNs are just better for you than smoking from everything we know.

There might be some studies in the future that show us that ZYNs have insanely high rates of ultra lethal mouth or throat cancer. Maybe that's true. We do not have any information telling us that yet.

Jordan Harbinger: Gotcha. Okay. Plus there's all kinds of health problems that come with smoking other than just cancer.

COPD, emphysema, hardening of the arteries, all that stuff.

Nick Pell: Smoking, again, [00:44:00] just about the worst thing you can do for your health. It's really not hard to find something that's better to do. ZYNs are better than tobacco in any form, but are they better than just not using nicotine at all?

Jordan Harbinger: Right.

Nick Pell: But people are going to use nicotine, and as far as nicotine goes, ZYNs are pretty harmless and inoffensive comparatively speaking.

Jordan Harbinger: Right. From the perspective of, of a non-user, what's the complaint? That you, you put little spit-soaked packets into the trash when you're done? I mean, you litter maybe? Yeah. Littering.

Nick Pell: Littering maybe.

Jordan Harbinger: Right. So how does harm reduction work compared to abstinence only when it comes to quitting smoking?

Nick Pell: So abstinence works, but it doesn't work very well.

Only 5 to 8% of smokers are able to quit cold turkey. Harm reduction in this case is more about switch to survive. You have to acknowledge most people can't quit without a substitute for cigarettes, and that some people will never quit nicotine completely.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. My [00:45:00] old producer, Jason DeFilippo, he told me that, and I'm pretty sure this is public so I'm not blowing him up, but he basically said quitting nicotine was one of the hardest things he ever did in his life.

And he's, he's, he's a Hollywood guy from back in the day, and he was like, "Literally quitting cocaine was easier than stopping nicotine."

Nick Pell: I've never been addicted to cocaine, so I couldn't really say.

Jordan Harbinger: I don't know why that surprises me, but I guess it sort of does. I don't know.

Nick Pell: The only thing cocaine does for me is make me able to drink all night and also want more cocaine.

Well, that's kind of how it works.

Nick Pell: Yeah, I think. Yeah, in the words of Richard Pryor, "Cocaine turns me into a whole new man, and he wants some too."

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Gosh. Okay. But you, you've quit nicotine... You've quit nicotine like 1,000 times, right? Haven't you before?

Nick Pell: Honestly, like I said, the issue isn't nicotine, it's smoking.

Jordan Harbinger: Right.

Nick Pell: I love nicotine. I'm the worst person on earth to ask about this. I'm the guy who's never going to quit nicotine. Honestly, I'm like, I get the guy with the oxygen tank and the lit cigarette.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, no.

Nick Pell: Like, that guy makes so much sense to me. I would quit [00:46:00] caffeine before I would quit nicotine, and I love my coffee, my, uh, you know, Monster energy drinks.

Man, I just like nicotine.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Well, uh, I can tell. I love how nicotine has hijacked your brain to make you into a nicotine spokesman. With harm reduction, the idea is to get people to drop cigarettes for a more healthy delivery system that's much less likely to kill them, yeah?

Nick Pell: Yeah. For me personally, ZYNs are not as viscerally satisfying as either a cigarette or a pull off a vape.

Doesn't really have that, like, stab you in the lung quality that I always loved about smoking.

Jordan Harbinger: They should use your description of what you like about cigarettes in anti-smoking campaigns.

Nick Pell: With ZYNs, it's just like, yeah, I like nicotine. It's something to do. It combats boredom. It takes the edge off. It's not the same For me, vaping was, like, the worst of all worlds because I would just literally vape all day and not get the consequences that come from chain-smoking nonstop.

Like, when I was a chain smoker, I would get chest pains, and I would, [00:47:00] like, set a timer on my phone. This is when I lived in Hollywood. I would have, like, three cigarettes back to back and want another one, and I would have to, like, set a timer on my phone about when I was allowed to have another cigarette.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh my God. Whereas with ZYNs, you just pop a few times a day and you're done with it.

Nick Pell: Yeah, and this is where I think it really has the advantage over vaping. It's a discreet event. Like, sometimes I'll pop ZYNs back to back. It's so rare. Even for, like, Mr. I Love Nicotine, it's pretty rare. I cannot be the only guy on Earth who switched from cigarettes to vapes because I could do it all day.

Like, I'd get chest pains and I'd still be smoking, but oh, vaping, I could just do this all day, and I could run a mile, and-

Jordan Harbinger: Right ...

Nick Pell: there's no way that's good for you.

Jordan Harbinger: No. No. Yeah, so you're... It's not that there's no consequences, there's no immediate consequences. Y- we have no idea what that stuff is doing to us long term, like you said.

So yeah, wow. Yeah, so vaping actually just makes it, like, too easy to just do more of it.

Nick Pell: No, exactly. It's like remove the immediate negative quality of [00:48:00] life consequences, and just make this a thing that you're going to, like, pay for all at once when you get God knows what.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. And you've got a tiny USB drive that has five packs of cigarettes in it or something basically equivalent, and it's cheaper, and it's-

Nick Pell: Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. And you can travel with it, and da, da, da. You know, it doesn't smell. I mean, right, there's just too many advantages to that. It's

Nick Pell: like $12 for a month of cigarettes, and you're smoking, like, you know, a carton a week at that point.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh my God. Gross.

Nick Pell: Loved buying them by the carton. I always felt like... I always would, like, just high-step it right out of that gas station with a fresh carton.

Jordan Harbinger: It's so gross, dude. So gross. Ugh.

Nick Pell: So back to harm reduction, people who switch to vaping or pouches are twice as likely to stay off cigarettes than people using traditional nicotine replacement therapy.

Jordan Harbinger: So, like, nicotine gum, lozenges. I don't know what else there is.

Nick Pell: Patches, I guess.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, patches. Yeah.

Nick Pell: I think for some people, when you [00:49:00] remove the act of smoking from the equation, that's a big deal.

Very few people have trouble quitting smoking because they crave nicotine. Nicotine cravings are gone in a couple days. You don't miss nicotine, you miss smoking. There's the whole ritual around it. You take one out, you light it up. My lighter was, like, so important to my smoking ritual. I didn't want to light my cigarette off a gas station Bic.

I wanted my Zippo. I wanted to hear that click when it opened, the sound it makes when you flick it, the way it- the, the first hit tastes like lighter fluid. Then you have this thing that tons of people talk about, which is, it's a joke on movies and sitcoms and stuff, but it's true, like, what am I supposed to do with my hands when I'm not smoking?

If you feel awkward in social situations, which believe it or not I do, cigarettes are a great way to deal with that because it gives you something to do. It gives you somewhere to put your attention. It gives you somewhere to channel your nervous energy. Finally, there's the [00:50:00] taste and the feel of smoking.

People have specific brands for a reason. You like the taste of your brand. You like the way it feels in your hand. You like the way that a hit from that cigarette, that brand, feels when you inhale it into your lungs. Non-smokers do not know how much smokers are giving up when they try to quit.

Jordan Harbinger: Right. I've never been a smoker like you are, but I can see how you're also addicted to everything that goes along with smoking, right?

It's more like quitting coffee than anything probably. Your cravings for caffeine, those are going to be over in a couple days, but you're not going to forget the fact that you like coffee with your breakfast, and the way the beans smell in the morning, and the grinding, and the making the thing, and the sound, the foam f- milk foamer make.

Like, there's a whole, the, it, there's a whole ritual around it. There's a coffee brand called Ritual because there, there's ritual around it.

Nick Pell: Yeah, and ZYN's working getting people to pick up somewhat healthier habits.

Jordan Harbinger: So giving up smoking in exchange for ZYNs. Yeah.

Nick Pell: Yeah, and the other thing, too, is when all you have left is the nicotine, [00:51:00] I think a lot of people are just going to say screw it and throw their ZYNs in the trash and deal with the 72 hours of irritability, and then move on with their lives.

Jordan Harbinger: Is there evidence that supports that?

Nick Pell: So there's a term called the ritual gap, and this is the part of smoking that people miss that isn't nicotine. That ritual is what psychologists call secondary reinforcers. ZYN has none of those. There's no theater in it. You pull a little white bag out of a little plastic puck, and you stick it under your lip.

Jordan Harbinger: Right. No one thinks ZYNs look cool because they don't look like anything when they go in your mouth, right? It's like having a piece of candy in your cheek.

Nick Pell: Right, and you don't have a lifetime of seeing James Dean and Steve McQueen leaned against a brick wall looking like the coolest human being alive, and a big part of why they look so cool is 'cause they're ripping a heater.

Like, it's cool. What do you want me to tell you? Cigarettes look cool.

Jordan Harbinger: Is that what got you smoking?

Nick Pell: Yeah, Duff McKagan.

Jordan Harbinger: The bassist of Guns N' Roses?

Nick Pell: Yes. [00:52:00] Um- Okay ... I thought he was, like, the coolest human being alive when I was a wee tyke of nine years old. And so I started smoking, and I would let the ash on my cigarettes get really long to look like him.

Me and my friends all called them Duffs. And I told him this story when I met him in my 30s, and he just, like, looked at me like I was absolutely insane.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Well, he was maybe shocked that a nine-year-old was smoking because of him, but yeah, the, the, who knows what was going through his mind. It could be worse.

You could have idolized Keith Richards or something like that.

Nick Pell: Yeah. Well, I got through a William Burroughs obsession without, uh, sticking dope in my arm, so.

Jordan Harbinger: There you go. Good.

Nick Pell: Little easier to pick up the cigarettes. The other thing that ZYNs are missing that cigarettes have is immediacy of delivery. You smoke a cigarette, bam, nicotine, it's in your veins.

ZYNs, much slower, so it's not the same gut punch of nicotine all at once. When you smoke, you've got your nicotine fix in 10 to 20 seconds. [00:53:00] ZYNs can take as long as an hour, and your brain does not associate the pouch with an instant high the way it does a cigarette or even a vape.

Jordan Harbinger: I see. That's great, but is it helping people to quit nicotine entirely, or is it making them go back to smoking where they can get slammed with nicotine in 10 seconds?

Nick Pell: Half of smokers who switched to ZYNs never went back.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow.

Nick Pell: 3.2% of study participants quit nicotine entirely, but the longer they used the pouches, the more likely they were to quit entirely.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow.

Nick Pell: Yeah, ZYNs just aren't cool or fun like cigarettes.

Jordan Harbinger: If your current system is chaos, cravings, and regret, these next sponsors fix at least one of those.

We'll be right back.

Thank you so much for listening to the show. I really do appreciate you supporting the show and the sponsors that make it possible. All of them are linked, searchable, clickable on the website at jordanharbinger.com/deals. Now for the rest of Skeptical Sunday [00:54:00] So you quit the cigarettes, and you get rid of the rituals, but you still have, like, you're scratching the nicotine itch because you're only quitting one thing at a time instead of being like, "Okay, I'm going to get rid of cigarettes and go cold turkey, and now I don't have the ritual of, like, going downstairs, taking the cigarette out, smelling it, tapping it against the pack, lighting it up, taking a drag, getting an instant hit," blah, blah, blah.

So you get rid of the ritual stuff with the cigarettes by moving from cigarettes to ZYN, and then later on you go, "Eh, this isn't as satisfying," and you just hopefully can then dump the nicotine entirely.

Nick Pell: Right, because nicotine is, like, it, the cravings are gone in 72 hours. I believe that's, yeah, it's less than a week anyway.

No one's taking a ZYN break at work. It's a maintenance chore. Maybe you like how they taste, but, like, go get some mints, little hard candies. Most people, as it turns out, don't like being addicted to nicotine.

Jordan Harbinger: But for some reason, the only guy alive who does like being addicted to nicotine is the one co-hosting this [00:55:00] podcast with me.

Nick Pell: Guilty. Real quick, ZYNs are extremely similar to nicotine lozenges, and very few people use smoking cessation lozenges for very long.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. The other thing is these are products for adults. They're clearly labeled as addictive. Is the marketing super restrictive, like the cigarettes market- uh, like other tobacco marketing?

Nick Pell: They actually can't be advertised as a product that helps you quit smoking.

Jordan Harbinger: Womp, womp. Why is that? It, isn't that kind of the point?

Nick Pell: Well, even if the science suggests ZYNs are less harmful, which again, it does, companies cannot use words like light, mild, low risk, or safer in their ads unless they receive a specific modified risk tobacco product authorization from the FDA.

As of early 2026, companies like Philip Morris are still in high stakes public hearings with the FDA trying to win the right to say their pouches reduce the risk of mouth and lung cancer. Until that is granted, they [00:56:00] have to remain silent on the health benefits.

Jordan Harbinger: Damn. What about selling them to kids? I know a lot of the younger crowd prefer these to smoking.

Nick Pell: All of the advertising restrictions that apply to cigarettes apply to ZYNs, so you know, you can't have Joe Camel hanging out with his friends looking cool as hell while he packs a lip. You can't use young actors in the ads.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, weird.

Nick Pell: Yeah, all actors in ZYN ads have to appear 35 or older. They can't go into Coachella and hand out free samples, if young people still go to Coachella.

I have genuinely no idea, 'cause I'm, I'm a middle-aged man.

Jordan Harbinger: It's probably super expensive. Yeah. I don't know if they can afford to go. I don't know of anybody that could afford to go.

Nick Pell: ZYNs can't even use influencers or ZYNfluencers, if you will.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I will not. Uh, so basically, basically they can't get around the tobacco restrictions on advertising to kids because it doesn't have tobacco.

I thought they would try to d- slide through that loophole.

Nick Pell: I'm sure they did, but They're like the least popular industry in [00:57:00] America, like, you know.

Jordan Harbinger: Right.

Nick Pell: If you were literally selling cancer, you might be slightly more popular than tobacco companies California and DC have banned the sale of all flavored nicotine products, which is super weak, 'cause when I go visit my in-laws, I have to, like, bring my own stash, or I have to get these California legal ones that taste like nothing, or they taste like tobacco.

The ones that taste like tobacco are, are super gross. Like, kids are not going to start using these.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, maybe that's the point, Nick.

Nick Pell: Maybe. Maybe. But you know me, I just think petty little tyrants like to use kids as an excuse to deprive adults of joy.

Jordan Harbinger: Possibly.

Nick Pell: They, they can't advertise at all on television or the radio, and so most of the advertising is going to be point of sale.

Jordan Harbinger: Which basically is just going to be, what? Price-based advertising because everything else is illegal?

Nick Pell: Yep. That's all they got. We're cheaper.

Jordan Harbinger: So say I'm at home listening and I think, "ZYNs are for me," what are you going to tell me?

Nick Pell: Well, first of all, I want to know if you smoke, because if you [00:58:00] smoke, great idea. Go buy some ZYNs right now.

If you don't, it's probably a terrible idea.

Jordan Harbinger: Right, yeah.

Nick Pell: No one starts doing drugs expecting to get addicted. Everyone thinks, you know, "I'm the one who's not going to get hooked." Nicotine is super addictive. You might get a little boost when you need it, but you're probably just playing with fire.

Jordan Harbinger: But on the other hand, like you said, ZYNs are one of the least addictive delivery systems for nicotine around.

Nick Pell: That's a fair argument. I just think the boost you get probably isn't worth the risk of getting addicted.

Jordan Harbinger: Right.

Nick Pell: If you're a smoker, yeah, man, like, start today. Start yesterday.

Jordan Harbinger: I think if you're currently using them, you need to be aware of the harm involved, because while they are good for harm reduction, they are not harmless.

Nick Pell: It's mostly all-day use that's going to be an issue.

Jordan Harbinger: All day? Oh, yeah, people who just do one after the other.

Nick Pell: Yeah, which I'm not doing that. I gu- I'm... Somebody out there's got to be, but, you know. For sure. I, Mr. I Heart Nicotine is not doing that. I don't think it's very common. Make sure it's not interfering with sleep.

You know, if you all of a [00:59:00] sudden have dangerously high blood pressure. Keep an eye on your gums.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Ask your dentist if your teeth are falling out from the ZYN. So here's the bottom line. Nicotine pouches like ZYN are the ultimate Rorschach test for how we view public health. If you're looking at a smoker who's hacked up a lung for 20 years and finally switches to a pouch, this is a miracle of modern chemistry.

It's the closest thing we have to a get out of jail free card for the most lethal parts of tobacco, the fire, the tar, the carbon monoxide. So from a harm reduction standpoint, it's not even a close call. It's like trading a motorcycle for a minivan. It's not healthy, but it's vastly less likely to kill you on the way to work.

But for the rest of us, nicotine is basically a loan shark for dopamine. It'll give you that boost in focus and task initiation today, sure, but it's going to collect that debt with interest tomorrow in the form of cravings, sleep disruption, and a baseline that slowly drifts toward irritability. All right.

Thanks again to Nick Pell for this amaze-ZYN episode. [01:00:00] And thank you all for listening. Topic suggestions for future episodes of Skeptical Sunday to me Jordan@jordanharbinger.com. Advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com/deals. I'm @jordanharbinger on Twitter and Instagram.

You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Tadas Sidlauskas, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but not your lawyer. Also, we of course, try to get these as right as we can.

Not everything is gospel, even if it's fact-checked. Consult a qualified professional before applying anything you hear on the show, especially if it's about your health and wellbeing. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use a good dose of the skepticism and knowledge we doled out today.

In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. Remember when Google actually gave you useful results, Facebook felt fun, and [01:01:00] Amazon didn't feel like a scam-filled maze? Cory Doctorow explains how tech platforms slowly trap users, squeeze businesses, and eventually cannibalize themselves, a process he calls enshittification.

JHS Trailer: It's not just that companies become too big to fail and we bail them out, although that's happening. It's not just they become too big to jail, but they become too big to care. The enshittogenic policy environment is what created this.

Jordan Harbinger: To hear why the internet keeps getting worse, check out episode 1280 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.