1339: Brother’s Objection Threatens Family Connection | Feedback Friday

1339: Brother's Objection Threatens Family Connection | Feedback Friday

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Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] This episode is brought to you by Lufthansa. Lufthansa Allegris is an innovative, elevated travel experience across all classes, focusing on each person with their own individual and situational needs. Look forward to your own feel-good moment above the clouds. Visit lufthansa.com and search for Allegris to learn more.

Lufthansa Allegris: all it takes is a yes.

Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, my guy who can't stop flying, which is fine as long as he's on Wi-Fi, that kind of rhymes, Gabriel Mizrahi. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, war correspondents, neuroscientists, drug traffickers, Russian spies. This week we had Nicole Sachs, therapist and author of Mind Your Body, on the psychological basis of chronic pain and [00:01:00] pain relief.

So if you liked our previous episode on pain with Dr. Rachel Zoffness, I think you're going to like this one as well. We also did a Skeptical Sunday last Sunday on dialysis. On Fridays, though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious soundbites, and dip our tootsies into the frigid waters of your most chilling life conundrum.

But today, no footsies. Let's dive right in. Gabe, what's the first thing out of the mailbag? "

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm a 51-year-old woman, 25 years sober with a job I love and a happy family. My brother, Paul, is two years older and has spent most of his life battling depression and substance abuse. Our upbringing was unconventional, to say the least.

Our parents were in a religious cult in Africa before moving us to a commune in Indiana. They divorced when we were young and our father, Steve, married Joan. Steve and Joan have been together for 40 years."

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. Ooh, what a childhood. A religious cult in Africa? Okay.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So wild, and then you end up in Bloomington down the street from, what?

GE-

Jordan Harbinger: [00:02:00] Yeah ... is

Gabriel Mizrahi: headquartered there. That is wild.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's kind of my neck of the woods. Like, w- uh, what a transition that must have been. This family's got some stories. "

Gabriel Mizrahi: While my relationship with my father and stepmother is currently stable and boundaried, Paul has recently gone scorched earth. He is now no contact with them and is demanding that I keep my two young children away from them as well.

The reason is a dark piece of family history that is not in dispute When Paul was 12, Steve and Joan introduced him to marijuana and hardcore pornography. Their defense? They claim he, quote-unquote, 'enjoyed it,' and remind us that they, quote, 'didn't know Jesus at the time.'

Jordan Harbinger: So this is awful. This is abuse, first of all.

And I'm sorry to hear this. Man, your poor brother.

Gabriel Mizrahi: What an odd thing to say. We didn't know better. We hadn't gotten right with God yet. But also you enjoyed it, so it wasn't that bad.

Jordan Harbinger: Good point. It's not exactly an apology, is it? And also this is unhinged. I don't really know if you need to... Look, y'all know I'm not religious, but I don't think you really need to know [00:03:00] Jesus to understand that giving a child marijuana and playing hardcore triple X Betamax tapes for him is wrong.

But okay.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Wow. Betamax. Yeah. What a throwback. But yeah, I think I can imagine why this guy developed an addiction. This is so sad. So she goes on. Paul is deeply traumatized. When he's intoxicated, he lashes out at me, claiming that by allowing my kids to see our parents, I am disregarding his pain.

Jordan Harbinger: Hmm. That's tough.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But here's the thing. My children are adopted and I feel strongly that they deserve a connection to their grandparents and a sense of extended family Steve and Joan are in their 80s now, and they are never left alone with my children. I've also worked hard to reach a place of peace with my father where I no longer seek his approval.

Joan has softened significantly after two strokes and actually looks to me for advice. Meanwhile, Paul refuses to let me discuss any of this with our parents, yet he uses it as a weapon against me when he's spiraling. I now find myself in an impossible spot. If I heard about a stranger doing this [00:04:00] to a child, I would label them an abuser and run.

But these are my aging parents, and my experience with them, while difficult, was never as predatory as my brother's. How do I honor my brother's very real trauma without blowing up my own family's stability? Am I being complicit by maintaining pleasantries with people who crossed such a horrific line?

Signed, Looking for your two cents about whether I'm being dense or causing offense in mending this tricky fence when my desire to put this in the past tense seems to come at my brother's expense.

Jordan Harbinger: Oof, tough situation. Fascinating question. So first of all, I'm so very sorry that you and your brother went through all this.

This was not an easy childhood, to put it mildly. You guys have been through a lot, between the cult and being uprooted and the substances and God knows what else, and my heart goes out to you guys. On the bright side, it sounds like you've done a ton of work in your life. You've been sober for 25 years.

You have a great career. You have a happy family. That's amazing, and you should be really proud of that. Although I'm sure that it [00:05:00] also makes it even harder to then watch your brother struggling all these years later, and it, maybe it's hard for him, too. Whatever growth and healing you've found in the last couple decades, that seems to have eluded him, and that's really too bad.

It sounds like he's in a lot of pain. And to be fair, it actually sounds like he got it worse in some ways. Obviously, he needs to find a better way to take care of himself, but I also really feel for a guy whose parents did such a number on him. It's really awful But whether that should inform whether you let your kids have a relationship with these people, that's a really interesting question.

Gabe, this is complicated, man.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So complicated. Tell me about it.

Jordan Harbinger: What her parents did is horrifying. It's beyond horrifying. And to your point a moment ago, what troubles me about it isn't just that they did these things, but that based on what she's shared with us, they haven't even truly apologized for it and they haven't done everything possible to repair things with their son.

They're basically going, "Well, we weren't religious yet, so you can't blame us, and also you liked it." I mean, that's a kooky, unhinged thing to say, like I [00:06:00] said before. So y- you know, maybe they're saying get over it, kind of. But then her parents do seem to have changed over the years. They're old now. They've mellowed.

They relate to her differently now. They didn't do to her what they did to her brother. I don't know. It's, it's a tough one.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And she never leaves her kids alone with them, so.

Jordan Harbinger: That's a crucial fact a- and it's interesting and it puts me at ease somewhat, but because there's no opportunity for something bad to happen.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. But I see where you're going with this. Yeah. Because if these parents have truly changed, then why doesn't she feel comfortable leaving her children alone with them?

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, exactly. Probably because she knows she couldn't live with herself if something ever did happen, and it's also that's in the back of her head.

But I'm not sure what that says about them. There's just so much ambiguity here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: What's most complicated about this to me is that she and her brother had very, very different experiences growing up, and in a way they're each advocating for their version of their parents, their version of their childhood.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. So it's like whose version takes precedence?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. Whose pain matters more? Everyone agrees that the parents did some truly awful things, but they didn't do those things to her, and she has a [00:07:00] very different relationship with them now, as you're saying so. But then her brother seems to experience all of that...

It's not just painful. It's like a betrayal to him. What did she say? She's d- or he says that she's disregarding his pain.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. And I also think the fact that he says this stuff when he's drunk or when he's high is relevant because he's probably, well, he, he's disinhibited and he says stuff that he might not say when he's sober, and it might be when he's in a lot of pain.

I, I assume he drinks or uses when he's hurting.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

Jordan Harbinger: That's when he wants to feel understood the most.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. This is really hard, man. I, I have to say I really do understand both of their perspectives to a degree.

Jordan Harbinger: Same. I, I truly don't know who's right here. And Gabe, here's, here's a thought, right? It's if it were, like, the neighbor had done this to the kid.

And she's like, "But the neighbors babysit my kids sometimes." We would just be like, "Cut them off. What are you doing?" But it's her parents, right? That's ... But on the other hand, that doesn't make them less dangerous potentially because they've already shown that they have horrendous judgment and are dangerous for kids to be around.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But then can people change? [00:08:00] Can they evolve? They've had medical problems. They've softened. It's, it, this, to your point, a lot of ambiguity. Look, our friend has some very fair reasons for wanting her kids to have a relationship with their grandparents. She's also created a very careful relationship with them, which to me does help legitimize that choice.

But then her brother has some very fair reasons to say, "These people are not good people. Look, they've done terrible things."

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Where I think he might be wrong, though, is in that final leap that she is disregarding his pain by bringing her kids around them. It's an interesting question what one has to do with the other.

Like, does that conclusion actually make sense?

Jordan Harbinger: Well, especially because she's literally saying, "Hey, I know what our parents did to you and it was totally wrong." Right. She's not denying what happened. She's not saying, "Hey, get over it, man." She's saying, "What they did to you was real and it was wrong, and I have a different relationship with them, and I see some changes in them that give me comfort that they can't hurt my kids," I guess.

But I'm with you. I'm also putting myself in this guy's shoes, and if my parents did this stuff to me and my [00:09:00] sibling was like, "I, well, I still want to have a relationship with them because I didn't get abused," it's like, I don't know, man. I really don't know. I want to believe that I'd be able to see things from both perspectives and accept that my brother or my sister can have a different relationship with my parents.

But if I'm being honest, that might be really hard for me to watch. Like, oh, I guess they just loved you enough not to up your whole life.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, man.

Jordan Harbinger: You know what I mean?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: That's how I would feel.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I hear that. I really do. She didn't mention whether she's gone to her brother and said these things in the way that you just said them.

I'm sorry about what they did to you. I understand why you're in so much pain. I want to support you however I can, and my kids and I have a different relationship with our parents, so I want to ... Can I make room for both? I don't know if she's really said that in those words. I, I want to believe she has based on her letter.

But If she has said some version of that, and if she means it, of course, and he still holds this view, then to me this becomes even more unfair.

Jordan Harbinger: Agreed. And I think she's allowed to respectfully disregard what he's saying and maintain this relationship.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But I also can't help but wonder if his anger and his need to be validated in this way, [00:10:00] if those are also symptoms of not having addressed his trauma and his addiction.

Meaning, if he were sober, if he were, say, in therapy, if he were really addressing these wounds, would he still hold this view?

Jordan Harbinger: That is a good point. It's not just about calling her and saying intense things because he's drunk, it's about what he's looking for from her because he's in so much pain.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly.

If he weren't self-medicating, if he were talking to somebody, he might not need his sister to validate his pain in the same way.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, he would also probably be better able to take it in when she does validate his pain.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Good point. And so this whole you're disregarding my pain thing, it might actually be a kind of projection, if you think about it, or at least it's a need that he needs to meet himself. Because by continuing to use, by not addressing his depression, by telling her that she cannot discuss any of this with her parents, which by the way is also not his place to tell her, she can talk to her parents about whatever she wants in my opinion, there is a case to be made that his sister is not the one disregarding his pain, he is.

Jordan Harbinger: Also, even if your brother did have a point, that doesn't mean he's [00:11:00] allowed to use it as a weapon against you, if that's in fact what he's doing. It's one thing to say calmly and respectfully, "Hey, I'm still in a lot of pain, and when you bring the kids around our parents, that hurts me and I feel like you don't take what I've been through seriously."

It's a completely different thing to call you five times in a row at 1:30 at night slurring words and leaving voicemails like, "You're disregarding my pain. Don't talk to Mom and Dad about any of this." You know, that's different.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Could not agree more, but to your point, that's a conversation he probably can't have until he seeks help.

Jordan Harbinger: Which he clearly needs to do.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Which he clearly needs to do, but which she cannot make him do.

Jordan Harbinger: So my feeling is, I think it's fair for you to bring your kids around your parents with these boundaries in place, but I would keep a close eye on their behavior and also your own patterns with them, like this tendency to seek your father's approval, and keep checking in with yourself about whether this relationship is truly healthy and safe emotionally, physically for you, and especially for your kids.

I don't believe you're complicit in your parents' abuse or any potential future abuse. I don't think that's likely or even possible at this point based on [00:12:00] what you've shared. I think you can have empathy for your brother, you can validate his experience, and you can go a different way from him. You are different people with different histories, different psychologies, different lenses, and therefore you have different needs.

To put it very bluntly, you are not responsible for regulating your brother's mood or protecting him from difficult feelings. Those feelings are real, and they are his feelings And that to me is how you honor his trauma without disrupting your family's stability. But listen, if you get more concerning data about your parents, I would keep an eye on this need for stability and just make sure that you're staying in their lives because there's actually a meaningful relationship to be had and not just because you're afraid of conflict with them or something like that.

And I'm sorry you're in this position. I know it's hard, but it's also an opportunity to clarify a number of relationships, and that's a good thing. Sending you and the kids a big hug and wishing you all the best. You know what you can show a 12-year-old? The pornographically good deals on the fine products and services that support this show, [00:13:00] now available on Betamax.

We'll be right back.

This episode is also sponsored in part by BetterHelp. Summer's a funny time because it can make life feel really full in the best way, and also in the how the heck are we supposed to do all this kind of way. Maybe your calendar's packed with travel, work deadlines, weddings, family visits, trying to see friends, trying to actually relax, and somehow feeling guilty that you're not making the most of the season.

For us, it's been especially chaotic. There's school events, getting ready to be away for a month on a long family trip, packing, schedules, work, logistics. We're definitely losing our minds a little bit, and that's why summer can be a really good time to check in with somebody who is trained to help, not because anything has to be wrong, but because life moves fast.

Therapy can help you zoom out, figure out what actually matters, and make choices that line up with the life that you want to be living. Because you only get one of these, and the goal isn't to have a perfect summer, it's to build a life where you feel more present, more grounded, and more connected to what matters.

BetterHelp has over 30,000 fully licensed therapists in the US, has served over six million people globally, and helps match you with a [00:14:00] therapist through a short questionnaire. If it's not the right fit, you can switch at any time. You don't have to say yes to everything this summer. Find support in therapy.

Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/jordan. That's betterhelp.com/jordan. This episode is brought to you in part by Lufthansa. When people talk about travel, they usually focus on the destination, the hotel, the restaurants, all the stuff that happens after you land, but the flight is part of the experience too.

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Visit lufthansa.com and search for Allegris to learn more. Lufthansa Allegris: All it takes is a yes. Limited availability on select routes. More routes coming soon. Thank you for listening to the show. Thank you for supporting our sponsors, which are all searchable and clickable on the website at jordanharbinger.com/deals.

Please do consider supporting those who support the show. Now back to Feedback Friday. Okay, next up.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, I was doing that thing where I flip through contacts I haven't connected with in a while and send out messages to stay in touch. You may have heard of it, Five Minute Networking, I think?

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, that's some slam dunk branding right there. I should come up with something like this for myself and then bang on about it constantly on the show.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's actually been a great tool, and I enjoy reconnecting with people I haven't seen in a while.

Jordan Harbinger: Love to hear that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Recently, one of my coworkers mentioned that a former employee of ours got a new job, [00:16:00] so I sent her a LinkedIn message of congratulations.

For context, our former COO fired her, and it was my job to inform her, produce the final paycheck, and escort her out of the building.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, oof. Not what I had in mind when I said dig the well before you get thirsty. That's ... Yeah I don't

Gabriel Mizrahi: think, I don't think anyone involved in that situation thought that was digging the well, but, uh,

Jordan Harbinger: yeah.

No, probably not. Like, "Hey, I just want to develop this relationship with you by asking you to take your crap, put it in a box, and give me your security pass."

Gabriel Mizrahi: Her response was unfortunate. She replied by saying, "Why are you in my messages? Respectfully, please all the way off."

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, dang. Well, that hits d- that hits different on LinkedIn, too.

It

Gabriel Mizrahi: sure does, yeah. That white background just really makes the F-bombs pop.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. It's like hearing somebody blast heavy metal at an old age home or something like that. Yeah. Like assisted living, and they're just r- blaring Iron Maiden. You're like, "Oh, that just, that's happening here. Okay."

Gabriel Mizrahi: I promptly ignored her message and blocked her [00:17:00] from my account.

I could see how I might not be her favorite person, but it wasn't my decision to terminate her employment. After a year, and on the heels of her good news, I thought a friendly congratulations would be appropriate. Interestingly, her title on LinkedIn includes Human with Resources and Badass HR Lady.

Jordan Harbinger: I get the need to self-brand on LinkedIn.

I mean, I guess we all do it, but that's so cringe and annoying somehow. I don't know.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Maybe part of being a badass HR lady is telling the guy who was forced to escort you out of the building to go himself. I don't understand.

Jordan Harbinger: Or maybe being a human with resources is handling these conversations with just a little more tact and, uh, professionalism.

I'm just saying. The thing about LinkedIn is it's supposed to be professional, so you're not an anonymous Instagram commenter who's saying like, "Yeah, this is stupid," like GFY. Your name is attached to it. Your resume's on there. I don't know, y- people are less crazy on there.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You'd expect people to act right because it's LinkedIn, but then again, I'm [00:18:00] thinking didn't like four years ago we get a letter from a woman who like shot her shot with a guy on LinkedIn because she was really into men from West Point or something?

Yeah, th-

Jordan Harbinger: I, I guess. Hey, look, it's a great way to screen in certain types of professionals if that's what you're after. It's just, uh, it's a choice.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think a lot more questionable stuff happens on LinkedIn than we think.

Jordan Harbinger: Probably.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So he goes on, "Am I the asshole here? Or do I just need to blow off this badass HR bitch and continue to reach out to my contacts who don't have a stick up their ass?"

Signed, wondering if I deserve grace or if giving chase created a disgrace after this embrace, which came from a good place, pretty much blew up in my face.

Jordan Harbinger: So I'll start with a little anecdote from my own life. When I left my previous company, they were really upset about it, right? I mean, it was this, like, huge meltdown disagreement, and people who've been following the show for a while know all about that.

They wanted to turn the screws on me and Jen as much as possible, so they did all this stuff like trying to seize company property, where they sent someone up from LA who [00:19:00] was-- had a legal background and was like, "I need your watches," like the Apple Watches. They were personal items, and we probably could have fought it, but they were old Apple Watches and an iMac that I used to produce the show and camera stuff that was outdated.

Like, they basically went through all these purchases of tech, and they were like, "You have to give this all back." And it was all this old tech gear, and it was useless to them. Like, the guy had to sell it. He told me later that he had to sell it, and it was just pennies on the dollar. You know, you're selling stuff on Facebook Marketplace to get 10 bucks for an Apple Watch that's three years old.

They

Gabriel Mizrahi: were just trying to get company property back?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, but they-- it was like they were going after items which even my lawyer was like, "I don't think they can take a watch you've been wearing for three years," but if the company bought it and you don't care about it, giving it back is-- like, the judge will look at that and go, "Well, they hyper complied with your nonsense."

So I was like, "Okay, cool," and it didn't really matter that much. So this guy comes up, and he's taking our stuff, and he's like, "Yeah, I'm sorry. This is, like, pretty embarrassing for you." And I was like, "I'm actually fine. It's more embarrassing for you." And he was kind of smug about it. And I [00:20:00] was thinking, you're the dude who drove eight hours to come get stuff that wasn't even worth the price of gas, pal.

Your time is valued at zero dollars, but okay. But I was polite, and I was like, whatever, you know. You're doing a job. You don't know all the ins and outs. Three months later, he calls me, and I was like, "What?" You know, "Hello. How are you?"

Gabriel Mizrahi: I can see you're-

Jordan Harbinger: I was just thinking like- ... very

Gabriel Mizrahi: friendly ...

Jordan Harbinger: I don't have anything else, so I would love to hear what you have to say.

And he goes, "Yeah, so, um, they canned me, and they're not paying me, and they're, they seized my computer." And I was like, "Oh." And I said, "Candidly, I thought this call would come maybe in a year, but wow, that happened fast." And he's like, "Yeah, so I just wanted to commiserate a little and vent a little and tell you that I'm sorry because, you know, I was convinced that, you know, this, that, and the other thing."

And I was like, "Of course you were. That's why you drove eight hours to get f- $80 worth of stuff, dude." Uh, and he was just, like, deeply apologetic and h- now that he had gotten screw-- And I was just like, all right, whatever. It doesn't matter. And when I went to LA, I took him to lunch, and I got the [00:21:00] inside on the story, and I just didn't really care.

The point of the story is this woman says r- you know, "all the way off." Why? Because he's the last guy you saw on your way out of the building? You might as well have just said "off" to the parking attendant. What do you get out of that? So I obviously find this ridiculous. You're just-- You're like a child aiming your anger at somebody who's easy to target instead of the actual-- the person who's actually responsible for anything that you might have gone through.

I want to start by congratulating you on taking your relationship seriously, I guess. That whole five-minute networking thing you found sounds like the real deal. Whoever came up with that sounds like a pretty smart guy It usually takes me at least one minute longer to do my networking. But I guess, I don't know, could just be me, so. You've got to pick

Gabriel Mizrahi: it up, Jordan.

Jordan Harbinger: Come on. Yeah. Six Minute Networking it is. So I'm sorry you had to receive this message from this woman. I'm sure it was a little jarring. And to be fair to her or whatever, she's clearly still hurt about being fired from your company. That was not your fault, but she obviously associates it with you, and I think [00:22:00] that's annoying and ridiculous, but again, what are you going to do?

And who knows? Maybe the way you handled that final interaction, maybe it did leave a bad taste in her mouth. I think that would be a difficult interaction for anyone. Maybe she'd always be angry at you, but maybe something you did or said made it even harder. I'm speculating, of course, just making room for all the possibilities.

So no, I don't think you're the asshole here. My feeling is that she took an opportunity to even the scales a tiny bit in her own head in an incredibly petty and ultimately totally pointless way, which actually kind of makes her the asshole. But if you wanted to avoid this response, you could've sent her a different note, something like, "Hey, Linda.

I realize this message is a little unconventional after how things went down, but I just wanted to congratulate you on your new job. I imagine the transition out of our company was difficult. I hope I was able to treat you kindly and professionally in a tough situation, but I'm very happy to see that you've landed on your feet, and I wish you the best."

Gabriel Mizrahi: Very nice. I like that note.

Jordan Harbinger: That would've probably gone a long way, and then if she still reacted poorly, you'd know that she's just a dick, so [00:23:00] whatever.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Great advice. Yeah. I completely agree with you. But I want to build on your theory from a moment ago, Jordan, and now I'm going to speculate a little bit and say, was reaching out to this woman without acknowledging the awkwardness of their last interaction and kind of trying to turn over a new leaf in the way that you just pitched, was that maybe a little tone deaf on his part?

Jordan Harbinger: I'm afraid it was, yeah, probably.

Gabriel Mizrahi: If it was, that might be a quality he wants to keep an eye on because it might have also played a role that day he escorted her out, you know? Like, maybe he didn't read her very well or behave as graciously as he could've, and maybe that's why she responded this way. To be clear, I also find this response super weird and unprofessional and completely unnecessary.

Like, she also missed out on an opportunity to try things in a new way with him and to meet his kindness with some grace of her own, and then they could've had a whole new chapter to their relationship. So I do not think it was appropriate, but it might also contain some good feedback for him, which is interesting.

Jordan Harbinger: Good point. Both can be true, but in general, yes, you should continue to pursue relationships with people who are kind [00:24:00] and generous and cool, absolutely. I don't know if this woman has a stick up her butt, as you put it, or if she's understandably angry about how this all went down or something else, but it's important to respect these signals.

Follow the positive ones to the people who reciprocate your interest, who share your values. But hey, maybe Linda's also helping you get clear on a new one for you. Kindness, compassion, tact. Maybe that's why you needed to be told to all the way off by her. I don't know. But hey, keep up the relationship building.

I love to hear it. Make sure it never exceeds five minutes. That'd just be a huge waste of time. Good luck. And you can find our networking course for free at sixminutenetworking.com. Five Minute Networking was already taken, and now we know why By the way, you can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com.

Please keep your emails concise. Try to use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're chafing at a claustrophobic relationship with a narcissistic mom, you're wrestling with a ton of doubt and uncertainty after radically cleaning up your life, or you're struggling to talk to your kids about how to stay safe in a predatory spiritual community, whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit [00:25:00] us up Friday at jordanharbinger.com.

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Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Gordon and Jabe. My ex-wife and I have been divorced now for three years. She left me for a pizza driver she works with because he told her a funny joke. [00:28:00]

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. Uh, I'm sorry to hear that.

That made me laugh instinctually. Obviously you're the funny one. A pizza guy she works with. Mr. Steal Yo Girl over here. I mean, that must have just been a hell of a joke.

Gabriel Mizrahi: A knock-knock joke, no doubt.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. W- well, because they deliver pizza. Yeah. Got it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I want to, uh, apologize for how dumb that joke was.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, no, it's nice not to be the only one cracking dad jokes on this show.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So he goes on, "Obviously the joke is not why she left."

Jordan Harbinger: Well, yeah, I c- yeah, I assume that. It was probably the icing on the cake.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The topping on the pizza, if you will.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, d- dude threw some pineapple on the pepperoni of his slow roll seduction and that was that. "

Gabriel Mizrahi: However, it does paint a picture of how absent I was while sitting right next to her every night."

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, okay. Now we're pulling it together. So this just got serious. I do appreciate the honesty. "

Gabriel Mizrahi: She had cheated on me multiple times before we got married."

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. "

Gabriel Mizrahi: I should not have married her."

Jordan Harbinger: No. "

Gabriel Mizrahi: I had convinced myself for some reason that given time she would feel bad for what she had done and she would admit to me what [00:29:00] I already knew, for which I had already forgiven her and we could just move on."

Jordan Harbinger: Fascinating. So both that you had that idea and that you had already forgiven her anyway.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So he forgave her before she even told him What she didn't know he knew. Yeah, that is fascinating.

Jordan Harbinger: Something tells me he's grown up a lot in the last few years, because that's a painful myth to confront.

Gabriel Mizrahi: She, of course, never admitted while we were married to the cheating that she had done.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, so she waited till after? Wait, so when it probably didn't even matter anymore. Like, "I'm leaving you. By the way, I cheated on you a bunch." I feel like I've seen that in movies before.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It does not excuse me being a quiet and dismissive husband, which is the choice that I had made.

Jordan Harbinger: I hear that. Again, kudos to you for owning this.

Gabriel Mizrahi: We had become very active in our church. I was making more money than I ever had. We were working on buying a house. I tricked myself into thinking that checking off boxes to help us keep up with the Joneses was leading to a long and happy life together.

Jordan Harbinger: Oof. Lot of ideas about how things are supposed to go.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But one day, when I was changing out the heater core on my [00:30:00] BMW, which was a 12-hour job for me and my best friend, I got a text message like one you would get in middle school saying, "I don't want to be with you anymore. I have fallen in love with someone else, and I will be staying at my mother's."

Jordan Harbinger: Brutal.

That is a brutal text to receive.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Guess he wasn't the only one getting his heater core changed out. Am I

Jordan Harbinger: right? Savage, Gabe. Maybe don't kick our friend here while he's down.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm sorry, dude. It's been three years. Are we, are we allowed to have a little bit of a laugh-

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah ...

Gabriel Mizrahi: about this? I'm hoping.

Jordan Harbinger: In that case, he wasn't the only one doing a 12-hour job.

No, man.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Bro.

Jordan Harbinger: Sorry. I mean, it was right there. If you're going to do it, I'm going to do it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm a little confused about this middle school text thing. I don't know about you. I was not getting texts in middle school saying, "I don't want to be with you anymore. I have fallen in love with someone else, and I will I will be staying at my mother's."

Not when I was in seventh grade.

Jordan Harbinger: You didn't have any game, obviously.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Clearly.

Jordan Harbinger: Now, you didn't, you didn't have a wife when you were 12? That awkward phase must have hit you pretty hard. I suppose you've stepped your game up since seventh grade.

Gabriel Mizrahi: For sure. Yeah. The awkward phase hit me hard. So that might have something to do with it.

I'm just confused. The only [00:31:00] thing middle school about that text is, "I will be staying at my mother's," because we all lived with our mothers-

Jordan Harbinger: Right ... in middle school. Literally. We just went from the couch to the bedroom. So he must mean that it was immature of her to text him that instead of telling him to his face because they were married.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Imagine you get broken up. A breakup text for your marriage, it's a little-

Gabriel Mizrahi: Tough way to break the news-

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah ...

Gabriel Mizrahi: to your spouse.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, especially when it's, "I'm, have fallen in love with someone else. I'm leaving you for another pizza delivery driver."

Gabriel Mizrahi: Guys, I tried for a year to get her to stop seeing her new boyfriend and to come home.

She wouldn't do it. She would pretend to, but she would always keep talking to him until one evening I walked out of the kitchen when she came over for dinner and saw her trying to hide a text message from him.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, this is so painful, man. For a year.

Gabriel Mizrahi: In that moment, it was like I felt God's hand on my shoulder saying, "You've done enough."

Jordan Harbinger: Might've been God, might've been the fact that your wife was flagrantly getting her heating core changed out and lying to your face. Bro.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Well, Great Spirit comes in many forms, [00:32:00] Jordan

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I guess so. Sometimes Great Spirit comes in the form of a T-Mobile bill for $250 with a bunch of texts to a number you don't recognize

Gabriel Mizrahi: So I let my marriage go, lost my apartment, and moved in with the rents

Jordan Harbinger: I'm sorry, dude.

That must have been so hard, but obviously this needed to happen

Gabriel Mizrahi: Fast-forward to January 2025. I had been taking small doses of fun mushrooms to try and help with my depression

Jordan Harbinger: Fun mushrooms. Never heard anybody call them that. I mean, magic mushrooms he means. Yeah

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Dude's not with Baby Bellas. Yeah

Jordan Harbinger: I hear Baby Bellas don't do much for the depresh

Gabriel Mizrahi: No.

That's a portabella job. That's what I hear

Jordan Harbinger: Okay, so he's partaking in the sacred fungus, doing his own clinical trial on shiitakes

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's right. I had heard things about mushrooms through podcasts. So when my neighbor offered me some, I thought I'd give it a try. Couldn't hurt. One day I got some from my neighbor, the same amount he always gave me, and I thought, "I'm just going to eat all of these."

And that was extremely awesome. I don't really know what else I could say except [00:33:00] if you know, you know

Jordan Harbinger: Indeed

Gabriel Mizrahi: We know.

Jordan Harbinger: We know

Gabriel Mizrahi: I completely blacked out my room and put on noise-canceling headphones and just laid in the dark silence and saw and heard so much

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, nice. Gabe, sound familiar?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, dude. You're bringing this up

Jordan Harbinger: now?

I mean, I think I have to. I- it's like I'm reliving that evening

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, boy. Okay. What Jordan's referring to, I can't believe we're about to talk about this.

Jordan Harbinger: No- This is so funny ... me neither. This is deep lore right here

Gabriel Mizrahi: This is the deepest of lore. Okay. So one night, I must have been 23, 24, Jordan came over to my mom's house.

I was still living there at the time. It was right around the time I left consulting, so I was kind of, like, in this transition period. And he, my sister, and I took mushrooms, and we had ourselves quite a night. Quite

Jordan Harbinger: a night. That's all I can say Yeah, truly one of the funnest nights of my life. Me, Gabe, Gabe's sister, and Gabe's mom, she didn't take any but she wanted to, but she was just chilling with us just li- like, having the time of our [00:34:00] lives

Gabriel Mizrahi: I need to explain how funny this was.

So my mom's apartment, we moved there when I was in high school, so it was kind of one of my childhood homes

Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm ...

Gabriel Mizrahi: is, like, a very unique place. Like, my mom loves collecting art and weird statues. It's kind of like an eccentric museum- Yeah ... kind of house. And there's a balcony with a nice view Jordan brings over the mushrooms.

This is my first time with them. They kick in. They hit me first out of anybody, and they hit me hard. And I just start walking around my mom's house, and I'm, like, seeing the home I grew up in for the, almost, like, for the first time. And I'm, like, marveling at all of these things on the walls and all these weird tchotchkes and all the stuff my mom has.

I remember at one point I take Jordan into my mom's bedroom to the balcony, and I'm like, "Dude, look at this view." And Jordan, you were like, "Uh-huh."

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm like-

Jordan Harbinger: LA. ...

Gabriel Mizrahi: please, enjoy. Yeah, you're like, "I've seen it. I live

Jordan Harbinger: here." I've been here many times, but yes. Cool.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And then I, I was like, "Oh." Not

Jordan Harbinger: in your mom's bedroom to be clear, but I've been to your a- her house many times just to [00:35:00] clarify that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I was like, um, "I'm sorry. Are, are you not, like, tripping ball?" And you're like, "No." I'm like, "Oh, it hasn't kicked in yet. That's why." Yeah, yeah. "Let's talk in 25 minutes, and we'll see how we feel about this."

Jordan Harbinger: Right.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Anyway, Jordan, Zara, and my mom are on the couch in the living room watching Finding Nemo, and then it hits them, and everybody's having a grand time.

And for some reason I was like, "I think I need to be alone for a little while." So I go to my room, and I put on my headphones, and I proceed to have the most beautiful, profound experience I've had up to that point in my life, like very intense visuals. Like, I'm in the desert. I'm flying over sand dunes, and I'm giggling to myself.

I'm just having the time of my life, and then finally I put on a bootleg recording I have of a very old Eckhart Tolle lecture from w- back in the day. And I just lied there vibing out to Eckhart for, like, an hour at least- Yeah ... in my

Jordan Harbinger: bedroom. I mean, you were a ridiculous person even then, Gabe. Nothing has changed.

Gabriel Mizrahi: This night is part of my origin story.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't know if you know that.

Jordan Harbinger: No, it makes [00:36:00] me very happy. Anyway, while Gabe's getting right with God in his childhood bedroom, I'm in the living room sitting on the couch with Robin, uh, uh, Gabe's mom, and Zara watching Finding Nemo, okay? And, and it, it's hitting.

And Zara is watching the TV with this massive smile on her face. We're having a ball. I'm in heaven, right? I'm just sitting, I'm like, "Oh, this is such a beautiful experience," because your sister and mom are so cool and, like, beautiful, and we're watching this amazing Disney movie.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Pixar. It doesn't get better.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Yeah. And all of a sudden, Gabe's mom is like, "Hey, you want to see one of my favorite movies?" And I'm like, "Hell yeah." So Robin puts on the movie Rebecca, and the second this movie starts, I am riveted. I've never been more into a movie in my life. And I'm like, "What is this? Who did this?" And Robin's like, "Yeah.

This is Alfred Hitchcock, Jordan. Welcome to the party." And I was like, "Oh my gosh, this guy is on one. How did he do this? This is all in black and white, an original film, and why is Rebecca like [00:37:00] this?" Imagine watching a Hitchcock movie when you're on mushrooms- ... for the first time in your life.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So at a certain point, I'm lying on my bed, and I'm like, "Oh yeah, th- they're in the other room.

Like, what are they... I wonder what they're up to." So I walk into the living room like, "What's up, guys?" And Jordan and Zara are sitting on the couch, eyes wide open- Yeah ... staring at the TV just utterly transfixed. It was amazing.

Jordan Harbinger: I remember you had to say, "What's up, guys?" like, three times- ... before I realized you were really standing there, and I was like, "Alfred Hitchcock- I remember that

that's what's up." Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't think I've ever seen you more enraptured by something in my entire life. It was honestly inspiring-

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah ... to watch. And I was like, "Oh, Gabe, where have you been for the past seven hours?" It wasn't even close to that long, by the way. But what, what are you doing in there? And you're like, "Oh, just listening to Eckhart Tolle."

Oh my God,

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm dying over here. I can't. I'm dying. I had some work to do. I don't know what to tell you. I'm sorry. This is so funny though.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. You had to seek enlightenment immediately. And then- Clearly ... you join us for a [00:38:00] while, we finish the movie, and your mom's like, "Hey, you want to see something else wild?"

And I was like, "Yeah, your d- track record is flawless so far, Robin. You can put on whatever you'd like. I'd follow your movie selections to the ends of the Earth." And what does she put on? Casablanca, Citizen Kane, The Godfather? No. She puts on the movie Freaks.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Freaks. I c- I can't with this part of the story.

This is, like, peak my mom thing to do.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm dying, sir.

Jordan Harbinger: So for anybody else who doesn't know, because I had to learn in the moment, Freaks is a very old movie. I don't know, what is it, in, like, 1930s or something? Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's, like, early '30s pre-code movie, and it is so bizarre.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. So it's about these carnival performers, like sideshow artists in a traveling circus, and I don't...

Remember, no special effects really. I mean, probably some makeup and things like that, but they d- actually found real people for this. Oh,

Gabriel Mizrahi: yes.

Jordan Harbinger: And I don't really remember what it's about, but one of them seduces the other performers, like a little person, and then she conspires to kill him to get his inheritance or something like that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:39:00] That's basically the plot of the movie, yes.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. This is 50-plus years before PC was even contemplated by Hollywood, so- Correct ... Because it features a bunch of people with severe disabilities, right? There's- Yes ... conjoined twins. There's a bearded lady. There are these people with really unusual physical deformities, differences, whatever the right term is right now.

And you're just like, "Bro, I cannot believe they made this movie." "And I cannot believe I'm watching this while basically tripping on mushrooms right now." It's like it's happening in front of y- in your mind. It's crazy.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Would not have been my first choice for what to watch on, on a psychedelic. No. But I love that my mom chose this

Jordan Harbinger: movie.

No, but it was perfect because, again, really fascinating movie and, like, weirdly touching actually from what I remember. Yeah. But yeah, that was a choice. Robin was like, "Oh, I'm driving now. Give me the wheel."

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, I love you, Mom, for that. What an evening. Finding Nemo, Rebecca, and Freaks. The weirdest triple feature ever.

Jordan Harbinger: It was perfect. I still think about that night quite often because of just how fun that was, how

Gabriel Mizrahi: interesting that was. I know. It's one of my [00:40:00] favorite memor- I think that might be the night we became true friends actually.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think so. Nothing like taking some dank shrooms with somebody to bond-

for life in their b- with their mom.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's either that or you're like, "Get me away from this person."

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, true. Could go either way. Thankfully, we had a good time. I was a little worried because it, you know, I've never had a bad trip or seen one, but I'm like, "Oh, I don't want to, like, ruin Gabriel's life and not be-" Oh.

You know what I mean?

Gabriel Mizrahi: No. Could not have gone better. I remember when we came down, I cut up some strawberries and you ate one. You were like, "This is the greatest strawberry I've ever had." Yes. "Is this what strawberries taste like?" I was like, "Yeah, I think so."

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that sounds like me. I do love me some post-fungus fruit.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I feel like my life forked that night. That was a pivotal evening for me.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it's amazing to think about. I'm glad I could play a role in your ridiculous flowering.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dude, me too. I'm so grateful. That evening was honestly ... It's hilarious, but it was profound for me. Very profound.

Jordan Harbinger: The fungus do be like that.

But yeah, amazing thing to think that the first brick in that path that led to Feedback Friday was laid at Robin's house while I [00:41:00] melted- Yes ... into her couch. And you listened to Eckhart Tolle lectures in the Arabian Peninsula.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Bro, I'm dying. I need to pull it together. Okay. Anyway.

Jordan Harbinger: What's interesting about that is maybe I've done them once since then with, like, a doctor supervising.

So that was it for me. I ... This is ... I want to clarify, folks. This is so long ago. Were we both in our 20s? Probably, or, like, maybe I was in my early 30s. And I'm 46 now, so this is ... I want to just be really clear that I'm not like, "Hey, everyone should try this." You know? We had a great time. I, I don't want to give off that vibe.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I understand. Way to distance yourself from this beautiful memory we just laid out, but I understand.

Jordan Harbinger: We did it and it worked out really great, but it's kind of like there's risks to this stuff when people just take drugs from the dark web. That's not where I got mine, but, you know, sourcing this stuff is important, and we had a lot of luck when it came to the whole chain of events.

Gabriel Mizrahi: What a beautiful transition back to our letter. Yes. Back to our friend. So he popped some shrooms. He busts a gabe. He puts on his Bose headphones. He blasts off, and he goes on. "As you can [00:42:00] imagine, I definitely wanted to experience that again."

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, I understand. "

Gabriel Mizrahi: So I went to my neighbor and asked him for some mushrooms.

Looked like the same amount to me." It was not. It was much more. I did not know that he was hooking me up and did not tell me. He didn't think I was going to eat the whole bag.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, man. I'm getting the sweats over here. This is why you've got to dose, homie. This is why drug dealers have scales- ... and pharmacists have scales, for that matter.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. That and they want to make sure they make a profit, but I take your point.

Jordan Harbinger: That's right.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's mostly, I don't think they care about that so much,

Jordan Harbinger: but- The other reason is irrelevant to them. That's a good point. Never mind.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But yeah, you can't eyeball the Baby Bellas, my guy.

Jordan Harbinger: This is not an extra pinch of cardamom in your soup.

Gabriel Mizrahi: An extra pinch can send you to the Arabian Peninsula-

Jordan Harbinger: Yes ...

Gabriel Mizrahi: or the astral realm.

Jordan Harbinger: That's right, or the psych ward, frankly.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Two hours later, I'm lying in my bed in a hot sweat, and I can't see anything except for upside down sevens scrolling through a slot machine, and I'm, like, viewing this from inside the machine

Jordan Harbinger: I'm sorry. That sounds [00:43:00] terrifying, but it's also so funny somehow. Upside down sevens inside a slot machine, and you're looking at this. You're also inside the machine. I, this is one of those things that I think people who've had vivid dreams and/or have done psychedelics can totally picture, but everyone else is like, "Hey, I don't, I'm lost."

Gabriel Mizrahi: I cannot think of a worse number to be pummeled with on shrooms. Seven.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, because it's odd? It's an odd number, Mr. OCD? Is that why?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Six, eight, 10, you can survive that. Seven? A prime, no less?

Jordan Harbinger: I think this guy had bigger problems than not being able to divide his hallucination by anything except itself.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm just saying it makes everything worse that it was seven.

That's what I'm saying.

Jordan Harbinger: If only, yes. If only he could do long division on his Reno casino nightmare- ... everything would be f- what are you talking about?

Gabriel Mizrahi: It was terrifying. Eventually, I felt like I was going to fall asleep, pass out, overheating. I could taste vomit in my mouth.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, that's so stressful. This, in all seriousness, this sounds horrible.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Somehow I was able to pull myself off of my bed and go into the kitchen where my parents were. [00:44:00] I couldn't communicate to them what was going on, but I was able to get my mother to get me to the hospital.

Jordan Harbinger: Can you imagine this woman seeing her son walk into the kitchen absolutely zonked on magic mushrooms, basically having a crazy, some crazy turned up to 11 panic attack and having to drive him to the ER?

My God.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. That's must've been really hard for her. Also, doing a heroic dose of magic mushrooms while your parents are in the other room watching Matlock, that is a-

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah ... that

Gabriel Mizrahi: is a choice.

Jordan Harbinger: I mean, given the story we just told- You know what? Good

Gabriel Mizrahi: point ...

Jordan Harbinger: I'm

Gabriel Mizrahi: not

Jordan Harbinger: sure we're in a position to judge him for that.

Okay, I mean we did, we did ours with your mom. I mean, I don't know. Is that better or worse? Like, I don't know yet.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, she knew about it, and we were, we had dosed, right? So, like, not the wor- anyway. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: That's true.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I feel bad for everybody involved. He goes on. When I walked in through the ER doors, I barely got to the front desk before toppling to the ground.

I was a vegetable stuck inside myself screaming, but my mouth wasn't moving.

Jordan Harbinger: Jeez, man.

Gabriel Mizrahi: For what felt like 12 hours, it was actually only an hour and a half, I couldn't move [00:45:00] and I couldn't make any of my thoughts known, though I was having full and very deep thoughts. The mushrooms started talking to me, telling me that they were here to take me over, to take over my body.

I said, "You can't have it. I'm here and I'm not going anywhere. I will not close my eyes. I will not die. You cannot have me." They said, "Okay, that's fine. We'll be here together."

Jordan Harbinger: While he sits behind curtain six at Kaiser Permanente at 3:00 AM. What a nightmare.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That is a nightmare, being in the hospital, but this sounds kind of interesting to me actually.

Well,

Jordan Harbinger: negotiating with the fungus over whether they get to take over your body or leave you alive or whatever.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, he said he was having very full and deep thoughts. That sounds nice, and the mushrooms literally said, "That's fine, we'll be here together." I don't know. They sound f- pretty friendly to me.

Um, just, just intense, that's all.

Jordan Harbinger: That's a fair point, but clearly this was terrifying for him.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I know. I'm having a laugh, but dude, sometimes you just ... You've got to strap in and see where the ride takes you. I don't know what to tell you.

Jordan Harbinger: Strap in or be strapped in- ... by an orderly and pray they don't 5150 your hippie ass and send [00:46:00] you a bill for $20,000.

I don't know.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm also saying this because it doesn't sound like they had to do anything for him medically.

Jordan Harbinger: Right.

Gabriel Mizrahi: He just had to ride it out in a bed until it was over, so.

Jordan Harbinger: You know, it's interesting. I've seen medical staff discuss this online on Reddit, and one of the things that they do is they just do what they do in hospitals all over the United States, which is take so long to actually get to you while making you mostly comfortable and giving you water, that by the time the doctor comes to see you, it's been six hours and you're fine.

Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't know what's worse, having to go to the hospital or having to stay there in the waiting room waiting for them to see you while you're freaking out until you're like, "Wait, I think I'm okay now."

Jordan Harbinger: I'm good now. Yeah, exactly.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That might be the more compassionate choice, and then you don't get a bill for $9,000, to your point.

Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, they're not giving you, like, an IV bag and rushing you around. They're like, "Oh, you're high? Well, you won't be by the time anything happens here, so sit here for five hours looking at the wall."

Gabriel Mizrahi: Have a seat. If you didn't do fentanyl, you're going to be okay.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But, you know, I don't know. This probably would've been much nicer at home.

Jordan Harbinger: I think so. [00:47:00] Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Takes a few trips to learn that lesson. He panicked.

Jordan Harbinger: Yep.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I get it.

Jordan Harbinger: I totally understand.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So he goes on, "As you might imagine, I was not able to go to work the next day or the next or the next or even the next."

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, no. Yeah. So this wasn't, "Hey, I ate 25% more than I should've." This is almost like, "I might have done damage to my brain."

That's really scary.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It took a couple of weeks before I was able to drive into work, and yet I sat in the parking lot shaking and trembling and eventually just calling in and driving back home. I eventually went to quit my job without being fully honest about what was going on. I just said that I was having anxiety, and my boss put me on a 12-week leave, and at the end of that, the company was luckily offering a severance, so I took it because I still was unable to perform my tasks.

Jordan Harbinger: Holy smokes. Okay, so this is, you know, this is why you dose, people. You don't want to do so many mushrooms that you forget how to use Microsoft Excel. Actually, that's a bad example because nobody- Excel is really hard ... knows how

Gabriel Mizrahi: to

Jordan Harbinger: use Microsoft Excel. Yeah. [00:48:00] Uh, but th- it sounds like this dude can't even remember to log into Outlook, right?

He's not even able to function. He can't show up to work. And I'm not laughing at this guy. This is awful.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Unfortunately, I'm not able to work in that field again without risking losing the pension that I've accrued up to this point.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, my gosh.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And the anxiety is still pretty high. So now I drive Uber for money.

It kind of takes care of my daily expenses, but I owe my mother $500 and I owe Cash App about $160. I'm not even going to go into what's going on with my collection situation. I don't know if you've picked up on this, but I don't have a lot of inspiration driving me. My best friend moved to Idaho and the small circle of friends that I had before my divorce all slowly faded away, as a depressed divorce is not exactly the most fun person to be around.

Drinking too much, smoking weed at the improper times, and always complaining about my ex and my divorce.

Jordan Harbinger: Man, you've been going through it. Being isolated is so hard.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Lately, my ex, who lives with [00:49:00] the guy she left me for, we've been talking lately about the ways that we let each other down, apologizing for them, and forgiving each other, and it really is good.

Jordan Harbinger: No. For the love of God, no. Why? What are you doing?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Don't worry, we don't go anywhere where we're alone, and we're not seeking a relationship, even though the one she has with the guy she lives with is pretty much over and he says he doesn't even like her.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, no kidding. She probably cheated on him three times already.

She's looking for the next branch to swing to, and it, I'm afraid you're her fallback.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So I say all of what I have said to say that once I'm done with these meetings with my ex and neither one of us feels like we need to say sorry anymore, I don't know what to do.

Jordan Harbinger: That sentence hurt my brain, but, uh, okay, I think I understand.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I feel like that sentence came from inside the slot machine.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. I can't explain it. That sentence was a string of linguistic sevens.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So I say all of what I have said to say.

Jordan Harbinger: The phrase you're looking for is all that to say.

Gabriel Mizrahi: All that to say. Yeah. That is iconic. Really [00:50:00] comes in handy for moments like this, that phrase.

Jordan Harbinger: For moments when you don't want to take up three more minutes of conversation explaining that you've already said the thing- ... that was just the preamble to the thing? Yes.

Gabriel Mizrahi: My anxiety is so high. All I want to do is go make the money I need to make with Uber so I can get back home where it's safe, smoke a bowl or drink a beer, and go to sleep.

Jordan Harbinger: I have so much sympathy for this. I mean, with go home where it's safe, that's saying a lot, but my guy, you should not be using substances right now.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't even know how to make a goal. I'm 37 years old. I barely graduated high school. I have absolutely no network, like literally no one. I don't know if I can trust a person to do life with, and I don't know if I can trust myself to take care of them the way I should.

I don't know how to build strong relationships, and I don't know what to do about my career, and I have no idea who's going to take care of me when I'm old. My ex and I were unable to get pregnant, and I feel like it would be so rude to make someone live life with this broken me I don't know [00:51:00] if I can fix.

Jordan Harbinger: So intense, man. Okay.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Any advice would be very much appreciated. I love your show Signed, a guy searching for a compass because he's currently coming up with bupkis after consuming some gnarly fungus.

Jordan Harbinger: Holy smokes.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, dude.

Jordan Harbinger: What a story. What a ride. Captain Slot Machine and the poster child for the male loneliness epidemic.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I find this letter difficult but weirdly compelling.

Jordan Harbinger: It is compelling. I mean, he's been through some crazy stuff, getting cheated on multiple times, having the trip from hell, losing his job, and now having to confront all of this very intense sort of fundamental existential stuff. Look, I feel bad because we've been having a little bit of a laugh this whole time, but this is obviously very difficult for him.

Very difficult. He's earnest, a little reckless clearly, but honest and vulnerable and that just-- It makes me want to root for him even though I have so many questions about how he makes decisions. It's an interesting quality. Okay, so Let's start with a little PSA. [00:52:00] This mushroom story, in contrast to our own, is a cautionary tale.

And I'm not going to turn this into a DARE lecture, but psychedelics used responsibly by the right people, with the right people, in the right dose, in the right setting, with the right supervision, I mean, they're doing clinical trials on this stuff these days. It's literally curing depression and anxiety and PTSD.

So I am not anti-psychedelic, but I am also not saying, "Hey, everyone should just go out and do this stuff. Grab some off the dark web and see what happens." But the therapeutic potential of psilocybin plus all the other benefits, spiritual, creative. I mean, look, if you're popping 12 caps on your own in your apartment and you're not in the best place, you're in the Wild West.

That's risky. But it can also be very helpful, again, if you do it right with the right people and maybe a doctor.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Or your xenophile mom.

Jordan Harbinger: Or your xenophile mother in the room. Eh, um, but the way you did it, just shoving a bunch of these bad boys in your mouth, you don't need me to tell you this. That is not the way that you responsibly use this stuff.

I know you didn't realize what you were getting [00:53:00] into. I know you trusted your neighbor, but this is... It's a little nuts, dude. It's reckless, and I'm so sorry that you had that night after having a positive experience, and I'm sorry that it did such a number on you. The fact that you're still dealing with anxiety three-plus months later, this derailed your career and your whole life kind of in that it, it's kind of made you want to stay home a lot.

That's really scary, and it's very unfortunate. So my heart goes out to you. It, it really does. That's not how it's supposed to be. All that to say, please, please, please be very careful with this stuff, guys. It's all fun and games until you're trying to tell an ER nurse that you're stuck inside a pachinko machine and the fungus is trying to colonize your meat puppet.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Sorry, it's still so funny. I still maintain that that could've been an interesting evening if he had just stayed in bed and put on his headphones, but-

Jordan Harbinger: I'm trying to save people over here, Gabe. I know you are. Maybe don't give them the advice to just curl up with Eckhart Tolle.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm sorry. I'm just... I just wonder what would've happened if he had vomited and then ridden it out.

Yeah. I think it might have been okay.

Jordan Harbinger: Look, again, [00:54:00] not medical advice, but if you find yourself in a crappy situation like this, eat a bunch of food, especially something with fat in it. Like, if you house a bunch of peanut butter, that's supposed to help. But what really helps is not doing it in the first place.

But yeah, you're not helping, you psycho. I don't think Beats by Dre is going to change, have changed the outcome here, okay?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay. From the man who pitched almond butter as the solution to his freak-out. Okay.

Jordan Harbinger: Uh, I said peanut butter. I'm not g- I'm not up with those fancy nut butters, unless they're about to sponsor the show, in which case I will endorse the crap out

Gabriel Mizrahi: of it.

All right. We all know what you like. I've seen you at Erewhon. You- You've seen me at Erewhon. Uh, I've seen you at Erewhon. You

Jordan Harbinger: brought me to Erewhon.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I did, but you were the one who went straight for the almond butter aisle.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, they have a whole aisle of that stuff. Anyway, he's not Hunter S. Thompson. You know?

He's just a regular guy who recently discovered mushrooms and whose wife left him for a guy with, I guess, mid rizz who works at Domino's, which by the way, maybe not the ideal time to take a heroic dose of magic mushrooms. Set and setting, people. Okay, so PSA over. Let's talk about your main question. It's [00:55:00] interesting.

I don't know if you're a full-blown addict, although it sounds like you're using booze and weed to cope, so you might be flirting with dependency. But in a way, the picture I'm getting from your letter is that you're sort of, you're sort of hitting a rock bottom here. I don't know if the aftereffects of the trip brought this out or this was building for some time.

My money's on the latter, candidly. But it sounds like you've sort of woken up into your own life and you're going, "Holy crap, I'm lost. I'm behind. I'm under-resourced in a number of ways. I'm isolated. I'm scared. I have no idea what to do about it." This is a very intense place to be, man. It can be very scary.

I say that not to pile on, just to acknowledge that you're in a very difficult place, and I feel for you I also feel that this is exactly where you need to be. You probably needed to get to this point for whatever reason in order to see your situation more clearly and to decide what you want to do about it.

It's not easy, but it, it's powerful or it's potentially powerful depending on what you do next. So nothing I can do or say in 10 minutes [00:56:00] on a podcast is going to fix all your problems overnight. I think you know that. But I hear you, you're genuinely asking for help, so I'm going to be very direct with you.

This might be a little intense, but I say it with a lot of love for you after the story you told us. You're 37 years old. It's not too late for you. It's never too late to make a radical change. But you also don't have any time to waste. You barely graduated high school. Fine, that might be an obstacle in certain fields.

It might inform the way certain people view you. But you do not need a college degree to earn a good living and take care of yourself in this world. And if you do, then you can learn to be the student you need to be to get where you want to go if you really put your mind to it. But I can almost guarantee you you're not going to get anywhere meaningful without other good people in your life.

You're isolated right now, which is psychologically very difficult, and practically that's going to hold you back. So part of your job, this will be a surprise to no one, is to start meeting people in a very different spirit with a lot more thoughtfulness. No more sort of sad sack divorced [00:57:00] guy getting shwasted at the wrong times and banging on about his ex too much.

Those days are over. You go hang out with your friends or with new people. You stay sober. You treat people kindly. You ask good questions. You listen. You take a real interest in other people. You give other people a reason to take an interest in you. I'm not trying to be finger waggy about this, okay? I'm not trying to give you a lecture.

I'm just cutting through the fog of your situation here in the few minutes we have together and telling you very directly the stuff that works. You don't know how to set a goal. Fine. Forget about goals for a minute. Go ask the people in your life what they need. Look for ways to be of help. Your friend owns an auto body shop?

Pitch in somehow. Your cousin runs an Etsy business? Go help her pack some boxes. Learn how the business works. You walk into a business you like, ask them if they need an extra pair of hands. You cannot go wrong being of service. You do that enough, you're going to find out what people need from you. You're going to learn what you have to offer.

The path will start to become clearer, and maybe a couple goals [00:58:00] start to take shape, or maybe your life just starts to open up and you follow the opportunities, and you don't even need goals. But sitting around saying, "Oh, I don't even know how to make a goal," that's just not going to get you anywhere, bud As for trusting a person to do life with, not knowing if you trust yourself to take care of somebody else, look, I believe you.

Your life needs a lot of attention right now and a lot of care. I hate... This is a cringe word, but truth bomb delivered with love from Uncle Jordan. Candidly, I would not be prioritizing a romantic relationship of any kind right now. You want someone to do life with? Start with yourself. You want to take care of somebody?

Take care of yourself. You're not in a place to create a healthy, high-functioning relationship right now. You could be sooner than you might think, but certainly not right now Right now, you need to focus almost entirely on yourself and the good people in your life. Not trying to get laid or find someone to watch Matlock with or whatever.

I promise you, you take these practices seriously, the right person will enter your life at some point. I, I really do believe [00:59:00] that. And if finding a partner is truly important to you, if you're afraid of ending up alone, then there's your motivation to turn the ship around. You can become the kind of partner that you say you want to be, so you can have the old age you say that you want to have.

Are you still with me? I know I'm being intense. I'm just giving it to you straight. No more booze, no more weed, definitely no more psychedelics, not until you're in a much more stable place and you have a doctor's stamp of approval. I understand you're in pain, man. The anxiety is bad. The alcohol and marijuana, they probably seem like they help, at least temporarily, but they are not helping.

They might make you pass out for a little while so you can get some peace, but they are not helping you tackle your life. They are not moving you closer to healing any of this. As I've said a million times in this particular question, I am not a doctor. I don't know what's going on in your brain. I don't know if you have, you know, permanent brain damage from mushrooms.

Honestly, I doubt it, but it's possible. It's also possible that this anxiety was already there, and now it's just a lot worse, and it's definitely [01:00:00] possible that you can work on it by working on whatever trauma you have, by taking a look at your mindsets, by engaging with yourself and life differently, moving your body, getting some exercise every day, by seeking a psychiatrist and looking into medication.

Hitting your bong and drinking three beers every night, dude, that is not medicine. You want a different life? This is how it starts. Even if you made one or two of these changes, the impact those have on your life could be enormous.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Damn, dude. That was quite a message. Thank you for saying all of that. I, I really hope this is landing with him in some way.

Jordan Harbinger: Me too, and one last thing. I feel very strongly that you need to leave your ex in the past. Yeah, you're having some meaningful conversations. You guys are apologizing. Okay, if that gives you some necessary closure to this whole thing, fine. But I'm getting the sense that you are still entangled with this person.

This person treated you quite poorly for reasons that are unclear to me, or maybe we know what the reason is. There's a part of you that's looking for comfort and connection and distraction, and you're backsliding. Again, [01:01:00] this is doing nothing for you, dude. Your relationship with her was unfair. It was unhealthy.

It was dysfunctional. It was a reflection of what you were capable of. But it's been three years, and I hope you've grown a bit in that time. You have the potential to grow a lot more right now. Leave this woman alone. Let her leave you alone. And by the way, thank God, this sounds harsh, but thank God you and your ex were not able to get pregnant.

Can you imagine going through everything you're going through and you have a kid? I'm not trying to be cruel. I really, I swear I'm not. But you should be thanking your lucky stars that that didn't happen for you guys. You are largely free So what are you going to do with that freedom? That is the question that you need to answer, that we all really need to answer for ourselves.

Is it daunting? Hell yeah. Being free is a huge responsibility. Is it exciting? It can be once you start taking baby steps towards these practices and see where they lead, because this rock bottom thing you're in right now, it's [01:02:00] humbling, it's scary, I know, but it's also a necessary breakdown. This is the soil in which something new can grow.

It's the story of every person who's made a radical change in their lives, and in that way, this could be a really remarkable new beginning for you.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I am saluting everything you just said, Jordan, and again, beautifully put. I just want to say one more thing, and I'm going to take a wild swing here. Part of me is going, "Did the mushrooms actually do their job here?

Maybe a little too well I know that sounds crazy because it's possible that this guy really his brain in some way. So I'm not trying to be cute here. I am genuinely concerned about what happened to you, and if you need some help or you need to see some doctors about it, you should. I hope you get that help.

But also, it's possible that this substance you took did something powerful. This anxiety sounds awful, but did the mushrooms, I don't know, create some new neural pathways? Did they chip away at some defenses you had, some defenses against this anxiety, which to Jordan's point might have existed [01:03:00] before?

Did it wash away some old narratives? Did it bring up some new information? Which, by the way, is exactly what all of the researchers working on psilocybin say it does. And now you're in touch with a lot of new feelings and a lot of new information, including this anxiety that you might have been repressing before.

It's possible.

Jordan Harbinger: Holy cow. Yeah, that's kind of a hot take, I suppose.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Look, I wish you did not have to go into the slot machine to get to this point, but, like, maybe you needed to look at your life from inside the slot machine. I don't know. Maybe you needed to realize that you were coming up all sevens, bro, which is a truly unfortunate number, in order to realize that you need to pull different ones, right?

Or you need to play a different game entirely.

Jordan Harbinger: Gabe, I can't tell if you're joking right now.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I am and I'm not, right? I'm choosing to think of his vision as a kind of dream. I don't think these images come out of nowhere. I think they almost certainly represent aspects of a person, and they're usually meaningful.

And if you don't believe that, that's okay. He gets to decide what his vision meant. But I'm [01:04:00] sitting here and I'm just thinking about his trip from hell, and I'm like, you know, looking out at the world from inside of a horrible slot machine, that is a powerful image for a guy who has been gambling with his life in a variety of ways.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, shit. That's-- Yeah, maybe you're onto something. Like I said, these molecules are very powerful. They are not to be trifled with. They are not for everyone. But you're right. They definitely give you some strong messages, and they might have given him something that he needed. And anyway, what's done is done, so he might as well assume that what came up for him that night was meaningful in some way, see what he wants to do with that information, and see where that gets him.

This is not going to be easy, man, but I promise you it can't be harder than what you're doing now. I genuinely believe that. So here's your wake-up call, man. Time to do things differently, sober and deliberately and thoughtfully, and trust that that's going to take you in the right direction. We're rooting for you, friend.

Good luck. Also, in case you don't know, there's a subreddit for the show. This sounds ridiculous, I think, on the heels of that letter. Doesn't [01:05:00] it? If-- But you can j- you can tell us how wrong or right we are on the subreddit, and we read all that stuff. And man, this is going to kick off a psychedelics thread, I know it.

So f- that's more than welcome over there on the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. All right. Now you get to take a heroic dose of the dank deals and discounts on the potent products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

If you liked this episode of Feedback Friday and found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do. Take a moment, support our amazing sponsors. All of the deals, discounts, and ways to support the show are searchable and clickable on the website at jordanharbinger.com/deals.

If codes don't work, you can't find something, just leave us a one-star review like that dipshit did the other day because he couldn't find something in the show notes. You can email us. I say this enough, this person could have just emailed us. He left us a one-star review. Anyway, you can email us Jordan@jordanharbinger.com.

We're happy to dig up codes for you. I don't know what the problem is, people. And by the way, if anyone's confused, the full show notes are always on the [01:06:00] website, like I say at the end of the episode. So there's a truncated version, I don't know, in Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen. Those aren't the show notes.

That's a description. There's a full write-up with all of the links on the website. I think some people are confused about that. That's why that guy just raged at us like crazy. But thank you so much for supporting those who support the show, and now for the rest of Feedback Friday And now for the recommendation of the week.

Lip Filla Clip: I am addicted to lip filler.

Jordan Harbinger: So a couple months ago, we enrolled Jayden and Juniper in online Chinese lessons. You know, trying to capitalize on that whole neuroplasticity window before their language synapses stop growing or whatever, and the crucial window closes when they're eight or, I, you know, whatever age it is.

It's important to us that we all speak pretty good Chinese so we can talk together, you know, secret language and all that, travel to Taiwan, China, other Chinese-speaking places, and speak the language. And who knows? Maybe Jayden and Junie get jobs one day that require Chinese. There's a lot of upsides to this, and it's good for your brain, and it's super fun.

So we signed up for this company called Wukong [01:07:00] Education. They offer interactive Mandarin Chinese classes for children ages three to 18, both online and in person, and they specialize in teaching overseas families, mostly from the US and Canada. They're big on one-to-one learning. They have small group sessions.

Their teachers are all certified. They have a structured curriculum, and they focus on vocab and conversation, which is really clutch, and it's all gamified, right? So Jayden and Junie, they do a 30-minute one-on-one lesson with a teacher who's in China six days a week. At first, we were like, "Oh, we're going to have to twist some arms."

We started them at two days a week, three days a week. We upped it to six. They really enjoy it. We told Juniper we were going to go to China this summer, and she goes, "Oh no, my Chinese needs to be way better if we're going to go there. I have to do more lessons."

Gabriel Mizrahi: Aw, that's so cute.

Jordan Harbinger: It's been over two months now.

Their Chinese is so much better. I- Junie used to not speak Chinese at all. Now she does, and Jayden was losing his Chinese after a few years because he left the Chinese preschool, and he went to a regular school, and now it's all coming back. It's actually crazy to watch. Junie will... She will [01:08:00] be watching YouTube, and then her homework thing will pop up.

It's like, "Your homework is ready in the Wukong app," and she goes, "Yay, I want to stop watching YouTube and do my Chinese homework." So they love doing the sessions because they're really fun. And so Wukong, not a sponsor of the show or anything like that, but they are offering all of our listeners a free trial lesson and a free learning bundle, God knows what that is, if you use the link that is in the show notes on the website.

I promise. Hope you give them a try if you're interested in learning Chinese or having your kids do so. All right, what's next?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Good day, Jordan and Gabriel. I'm a 41-year-old man who currently works as a heavy equipment operator for a local government entity. I'm married with two kids. One of them graduates from high school this year, and the other is currently a freshman I'm making more than I've ever made, but I'm still living paycheck to paycheck.

My wife also works full-time, and I'm working two other jobs.

Jordan Harbinger: Holy cow, you guys are dedicated. Burning the candle at both ends, I might add. That's got to be a lot.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I've been doing my full-time job [01:09:00] for two years, and I love what I do, but the political situation and leadership structure at work are almost nonexistent.

There are times after my family have all gone to bed and I'm left to my thoughts that I feel that I'm a failure as a father. It's a heavy burden.

Jordan Harbinger: Man, that is really tough, especially for a man. I'm sorry to hear that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I look on the job websites and see positions that could double my income, but at what cost to my family?

New hours, missing school events, and just being able to be around the ones I love the most. My son is graduating soon, his foray into adulthood My daughter has found her niche in high school drama. I only have three more years of her being home. I don't want to miss the rest of the school years I have left with her.

Jordan Harbinger: I feel this so hard. It's hard to put a price on this.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Am I doing my family a disservice by working so much, and maybe working even more, which would mean that I don't see them as much? Or do I need to upgrade my job? Signed, Make More Plans to Stock My Bands [01:10:00] or Hit Pause on That Demand Even Though It Means We Can't Expand So I Can Be There for My Fam.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Yeah, that is the question. First off, I am very sorry you guys have been struggling to make ends meet, that you and your wife have to work so hard to stay afloat. This is the story of so many families right now, in America especially. I'm just kind of in awe of people who do what they have to do to provide.

It is remarkable. Candidly, I know people always say, "Jordan, you're the only person I know who uses the word candidly in conversation." Candidly, there's a part of me going, you're working a full-time job and two other jobs. Your wife is working full-time. You're making more than you've ever made, and you're still living paycheck to paycheck?

How is that possible? What is going on here? But maybe that's the reality of your industry, your part of the country, you and your family's situation, raising two kids, all that. Maybe I'm grossly out of touch with how expensive it is, uh, in all of these other parts of the United States right now. I would obviously need so much more information to really know this, and it's not my place to be your financial coach or whatever.

I, I'm just taken aback by that a bit. So I have to [01:11:00] ask, are you guys managing your finances as well as you can? Are you planning and budgeting? Are you advocating for yourselves professionally as well as you can so that you can earn the money you want to make? These are just questions. I have no idea, of course, the answers.

But I understand that this is also not what you are writing in about.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, no, but also it kind of is, isn't it?

Jordan Harbinger: Well, it might be part of the answer, because if this is really just a question of basic financial management, then that might help solve his problem. But the deeper question he's asking is, what's more important, time with my family or money?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, man. I mean, I feel like the answer to that is both super easy and also complicated.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, as a father, a fellow father, I want to say it's family every time. The next three years are crucial. You cannot get this time back. If making less money means spending more quality time with your kids, which is so rewarding and precious, kind of the whole point of having kids, then that sounds like a good trade-off to me But it goes without saying the practical reality is obviously trickier.

If you're really living paycheck to paycheck, what happens if one of you [01:12:00] guys, I don't know, you, you break your leg, you've got to go to the hospital, or the water heater in your house breaks and you've got to replace it, or your daughter gets into an expensive college, or I don't know, wants to move to New York to pursue some career and she needs help to get started?

Obviously, finding a way to make more money would also be a way of loving and showing up for your children. Not necessarily the most important way, but let's not be naive. It's a powerful way, and it can make a big difference. And I know this is part of the unique burden of being a father, a provider, being a man.

A lot of the time we put all of this on ourselves. I- there's a lot of women that do this too, of course, but I can only speak for myself. It c- it can be very intense, so I really feel for you, bud. So all fine and dandy for me to be like, "Hey, don't work more. Just love and enjoy your kids," when loving and enjoying your kids might also mean providing for them and giving them food to eat.

But now I'm kind of back to my earlier thought. Before you think about giving up even more time to make more money, I would really make sure you guys are being very disciplined about the money you're already making. Are there any areas where you might be overspending? Is there a way for you or your wife to look for a raise or a promotion or [01:13:00] another full-time job, a different full-time job with better compensation?

Can you put the money you currently make to work in a different way? Again, I- I'm not trying to Suze Orman you at all. Not my, not my skillset. I'm just covering all the angles. I'm thinking about that George Saunders Option A versus Option B thing Gabe shared a while back, how when we think we have to choose between two mutually exclusive things, in your case, time working versus time with family, sometimes we're missing that there's a third or fourth, fifth way.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, totally, which often means we have to find it or create it ourselves.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. So those are a few ways to create it. But listen, whatever you do, here's what I'd keep in mind. If you decide to work more, A, make sure you absolutely have to, that it's more important than being at home, and B, be very intentional and make sure this work is truly compensating you the way you need so that the time away from your family is for a good reason.

If you decide to not pursue more work and spend more time with your family, I would make that time as valuable as possible by being super present, super generous, [01:14:00] super grateful. In other words, really be there and really soak it up.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, man, that is such a good point, Jordan, because it's probably easier for him to look at these job postings and go, "Man, I could be making another 12K if I did that job."

It might be harder to look at his family and think, "Man, I could be making this 10X more rewarding if I listened better, or if I paid closer attention, if I created great experiences for us and was, like, super involved," whatever it is. You can't put a dollar value on that, so you might not think about it in that way, but this time with your family is an asset as well, arguably the most important asset, and the love that you have for them and the quality of your attention when you're with them, that's a currency, too, arguably the most important currency.

Jordan Harbinger: Dude, 100%, 100%. Something I have to remind myself from time to time when I'm hanging with the kids or when Jen and I take them on a family trip, like, really be here, really soak this up. You get to decide how meaningful this is. And please keep looking for that third way, a way out of the binary. Maybe that's managing your money differently.

Maybe that's channeling this energy you're spending looking at other jobs into your current roles, trying to rise [01:15:00] up and get a raise, jumping to another place that pays you more. Maybe it's collaborating with your wife better to maximize the time you guys have with your kids. Maybe it's deciding that you can gamble with living paycheck to paycheck for three more years so you can be around more, and then just coming up with a plan to create a safety net once your daughter graduates.

Only you can decide which move is right for you. But as much as you can, try not to buy into the binary too much. Sometimes life really does come to option A or option B. But more and more, I'm realizing that those are just the obvious options, and there are a bunch of other good ones, usually better ones, hidden behind them.

Rooting for you, my friend. Hugs to you and your family, and good luck. Go back and check out Nicole Sachs and our Skeptical Sunday on dialysis if you haven't heard those yet. Remember, show notes and transcripts on the website for the full show notes, jordanharbinger.com. Advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show all at jordanharbinger.com/deals.

I'm @JordanHarbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's on Instagram @GabrielMizrahi. This show was created in [01:16:00] association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tadas Sidlauskas, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I might be a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer.

Consult a qualified professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. And don't do drugs. I have to say that probably. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today.

In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. That cute family vlog or kid influencer you scroll past, it might be part of a system where platforms profit while predators watch. In this preview, Taylor Lorenz breaks down how the influencer economy exploits kids, and what parents need to know.

JHS Trailer: I actually talk a lot about the origins of the influencer economy and where it came from. Influencer marketing continues to grow. We're seeing this broad shift towards personality-driven media. Brands want to be part of everyone's life. They want to monetize [01:17:00] every brand moment as well, like they monetize the moments in these children's lives, in the family's lives, if the family's moving, if the daughter has her first period.

Some people are only making a few hundred dollars a month on TikTok maybe, but some are making millions, and so there is quite a range. If you're really successful on YouTube and TikTok, you are likely making millions of dollars in sponsorship money and ad revenue. Fame does stuff to you, and I think none of us are prepared for it.

What becomes a problem is this influencer economy that we built intersecting with surveillance. Now we have AI systems that can scrape all those videos, can pull out clips, can find your face in any single piece of content online through facial recognition. It's just all becoming a lot more dystopian, and kids are being tracked and surveilled.

But there's something that I think is actually a bigger reason, I guess, like a bigger problem with this whole, like, child influencer industry, and that is the fact that young people don't have their identity formed yet. [01:18:00] Young people are exploring who they are. They're trying to learn who they are. I promise you, we are rapidly losing privacy, and the way things are going is really dark.

I would argue that, again, the best thing that you can give your child is actually privacy.

Jordan Harbinger: To learn why protecting kids online has never been harder, check out the full episode 1206 on The Jordan Harbinger Show.