1410: Age-Gap Beau Wins Over Dad; His Kids Still Mad | Feedback Friday

1410: Age-Gap Beau Wins Over Dad; His Kids Still Mad | Feedback Friday

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Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the rocking chair helping me soothe your soul on this creaky porch of life drama, Gabriel Mizrahi.

On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, mafia enforcers, astronauts, economic hitmen, gold smugglers.

This week, we had Lindsay Owens, author of Gouged: The End of a Fair Price, and what that means for your wallet. We actually, I didn't know about this, there's something called algorithmic pricing, which essentially finds out what you're willing to pay for something based on the device you're using and your location and all these things about you. Not just how much the item should cost or the airline ticket or the hotel should cost, it's just basically they're spying on you and then they figure out if they can charge you more for something.

Even what phone you're using, it's just crazy stuff. I also sat down with Patric Gagne, author of Sociopath, a memoir. This is a woman who is a sociopath and she tells me about her upbringing and all these weird things she used to do and how she adjusted to live a quote unquote normal life with a husband and kids.

She's fascinating, but she's very blunt about everything and has successfully sort of adapted to live among us, but she's not scary. She's actually really fascinating and a very nice person. Or is she just pretending?

No, I don't know. But anyway, that show was very interesting for me as well because I'm not talking with a serial killer or anything, but I'm talking with somebody who sort of goes, yeah, I just don't feel any of these feelings that I pretend to have. I thought that was something else.

We also did a little something different last Sunday. I interviewed Justin Folk, director of the documentary Paging Hezbollah. The documentary reveals how Israel pulled off one of the most audacious intelligence operations in history when they engineered and smuggled a modern day Trojan horse into Hezbollah's command network before destroying it with a single beep.

It's the whole pager thing with the exploding pagers that you heard about. Fascinating story, interesting filmmaker. On Fridays, though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious sound bites, and compare ourselves to various outdoor furniture and appurtenances.

So I'm sick, as you can tell. When you have little kids, you're signing up for the virus of the month club. It's what happens when you send your kids to school.

They go to school and they come back and they are over it in a day and a half and you keep it for three weeks. So I've got, I've got sexy-itis, as you can tell by my voice. It's sexier on the mic than it is in real life, where I'm just a phlegm dispenser.

But I'll try to keep it less productive on this episode of Feedback Friday. Before we dive in, Gabe, weird story from this past weekend, huh?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Ooh, okay. I'm here for it. This is in Vegas, where you also might have contracted this illness?

Have you considered that?

Jordan Harbinger: No, I was sick when I went to Vegas, which, as is tradition, I was like, I'm fine, I only feel a little tickle in my throat and I'll just be careful around our friends. And then I was like, let me make this a million times worse.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm going to go from one Petri dish to another Petri dish.

Jordan Harbinger: That's right. And we'll see what happens.

I'm going to, it's like Pokemon. Collect them all.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So what happened?

Jordan Harbinger: I went to this show called Absinthe, which is a really good, racy, burlesque-type show. It's not porny or anything. It's just like, think old-timey circus and there's a funny ringmaster and a funny sidekick and then they do stuff like, these people are going to breathe fire on a tightrope and you're like, wow, this is kind of something you would expect to see in a movie, like a Tarantino movie.

Or you'd read about in some sort of book that's about a circus in 1850 where people actually die and they're just like, oh, well, we need another fire breather, I guess, or another sword swallower. It's like that kind of stuff. And it's really cool and fun.

They're playing to the crowd, right? And they're like, "All right, who's here for this?" And everyone's laughing.

And this dude just goes, "Heil Hitler." And the guy, the host goes, "What?"

Gabriel Mizrahi: Did he say "Heil Hitler?"

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. But muffled, right? Because he doesn't have a mic.

And the host goes, "What? Who the fuck just said that?" And he talks like that, right?

Because he's like.

Gabriel Mizrahi: He's a character in Deadwood.

Jordan Harbinger: He's a character in Deadwood.

Yeah. And he's like, "No, no, really. Who said that? Who did that? What did you say?"

And then the guy says "Heil Hitler" again.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, no. Just double down.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

And the host goes, "Oh, okay, okay. You said 'Heil Hitler.' Turn the lights on. Turn the lights, all the lights. Turn them on. Spotlight this asshole right now."

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, shit.

Jordan Harbinger: "Which one of you is it?"

And all of the people are like, "This guy!" Because nobody wants to be spotlighted wrongly, right? So they're like, "It was the guy in front of me."

"It was the guy behind me." "It was the guy next to me." So they point to this dude and he's like, "Oh, okay, yeah, you probably thought that was funny. Security, kick this man the fuck out of my show right now. No, I'm not kidding. No, get out of here."

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, no way.

Jordan Harbinger: And he's like, "Stand up and get out of here."

Gabriel Mizrahi: "Get the fuck out of my tent." I am so glad that you're sick this week so you can do that voice.

Jordan Harbinger: The voice is. Yeah, I know. This is why this happened.

I'm spot on with the guy's voice, right? So this guy gets up and I'm expecting to see like the usual sort of like inbred, but bodybuilder steroid neo-Nazi. It's like a 60-plus-year-old, maybe Hispanic or Indian guy, like just ran in with a hat on backwards who weighs like 150 pounds soaking wet and the host is like, "Not exactly what I expected from the 'Heil Hitler' crowd, but also kind of on brand!" Something along those lines because it was like, okay.

And he goes, "Hitler probably would have really loved you too, huh? What the hell are you doing, buddy?"

Gabriel Mizrahi: Truly, dude. Yeah. So he was expecting Edward Norton from American History X.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Instead he got Aziz Ansari having a midlife crisis, landscaper version of Aziz Ansari. Okay.

And so the guy gets up and he's just like, "Screw you!" and like double middle finger. And he's like, "Oh, yeah, the middle finger. How original."

"Anyway, take this inbred moron out of my tent and throw him out on his ass." And so like these security guys come by and they're just like, "No, we're not kidding. Get out of here."

And he's like, "I'm not taking—the show is not going on. You're getting the fuck out of here."

So they escort this guy out and he's like whining and everyone around him is just like, "Uh," and he's like, "I would ask who's with that guy, but nobody's going to have the balls to admit that. Anyway." And he like, the lights go back out and he's like, "Anyway, here's the guy from Germany doing a crazy roller skating, tight rope, fire breathing act," whatever.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It was the first act was also was a guy from Germany.

Jordan Harbinger: The first act. There's a ton of guys from Germany and Ukraine and Russia. And it's just like, it's what you would expect, right?

So it's like, here's a bunch of guys dressed old timey that are going to do flips that look like you're going to die if you miss.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But there's no connection between this guy yelling out Heil Hitler and the fact that German people, okay. I didn't know.

Jordan Harbinger: Germans just go hard when it comes to like roller skating that involves fire. Sure. These acts are from all over the world.

And it's really incredible because of course, I don't know how they source them. Absinthe is a worthwhile show. It's really good.

I don't know how they find these people. Where do you hire circus performers? Because that's literally what this stuff is.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I worked for Cirque du Soleil for a year.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, right. Yeah. How do you find people like that?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, it wasn't my job, but what I remember is that they have scouts all over the world. People who go to like big top circuses and strange countries and go scout talent and bring them back and train them for Cirque. So I'm sure it's the same thing.

Jordan Harbinger: That makes sense. Yeah. Because this is obviously a smaller production than Cirque du Soleil.

So maybe they find Cirque people who like had a disagreement with the management. I don't know.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's true. They might've just recruited them on the strip.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Disaffected people who were laid off from a Cirque show.

Jordan Harbinger: You want to do another one? Where's the bar where people go when they've got an injury and they're still on disability, but they want to earn a little bit of extra money? Yeah.

I don't know. It's really wild. Some of the dancing is just nuts.

So Absinthe is a worthwhile show and they don't tolerate Nazis. But what I loved about this was the discourse online. Like not a day goes by where I don't have a DM that's like, I'm going to kill you and put your family in the oven.

You kike. Like I get that all the time.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Really? That often?

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, all the time. And I see it on Reddit posts and I see it on Instagram, everywhere especially.

And I basically don't use that much social media anymore because of that. In part because of that. In part because it's a total waste of time.

But to see this happen in real life and not have people be like, "Yay, Hitler," it was like, no, no, no, no. The whole arena is just united in you getting out of here and being embarrassed and humiliated.

So it was kind of nice to see like, oh, meanwhile in reality, you guys are still the inbred losers that you always were.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Unreal. Well, kudos to Absinthe. I might have to go check out that show if I ever go to Vegas.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. If you don't like Nazis, Absinthe is a great place for you.

Gabriel Mizrahi: If you love burlesque and fighting antisemitism, this is the show for you. Right.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. If you love an international crowd dressed scantily clad while dancing slash roller skating slash fire breathing slash sword swallowing and fighting antisemitism at the same time, go pick up some tickets. And by the way, if you do go to Absinthe, don't buy the tickets online because they charge these service fees that are like 40 bucks.

Just go to the tent area and buy them right there. There's no fee. And it's right outside Caesars Palace.

And you'll save a ton of money, especially if you're buying like four tickets for your friends and family. You save hundreds of dollars. We saved like 200 bucks on a group just by showing up and buying them.

And they always have a ton of seats left. It's not. There's two shows per night, I think like six days a week.

You're not going to run into a sellout problem. Anyway, what's the first thing out of the mailbag?

Gabriel Mizrahi: So about a year and a half ago, we took a letter from a woman in her 40s, early 40s, I believe, who had fallen in love with a guy in his 60s. But their relationship was facing some resistance from her family, complications from his previous marriage. This was episode 1187, by the way.

Basically, even though her boyfriend had separated from his wife, they still lived together because she refused to leave the house and he felt guilty forcing her out, which was also doing a number on him. And then there was this other subplot. His children were suspicious of our listener.

I think she said in her last letter that they hadn't met her, but apparently they thought that she might be some quote unquote gold digging enemy, as she put it.

Jordan Harbinger: Even though she had a high paying job in finance, right?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, she's super successful.

She works in like legal finance, she said.

Jordan Harbinger: And her dad, who she had a difficult relationship, right? And she said he was absent for most of her life and he was like, oh, he's too old for that. Dad was like, oh, this guy's too old for you.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And she was afraid to introduce him to the rest of her family because they thought her preference for older men was weird and looks like daddy issues.

Jordan Harbinger: Which I think we also said like, hey, maybe, but you're 40, your boyfriend's 60. It's not like you're not 18 and he's 40. At a certain point, age gaps just become way less of a thing.

And you know what, frankly, like, oh, you have daddy issues. Okay, I'm 40. This is how I'm dealing with them.

Oh, well, you know, like at some point, how harmful is this really?

Gabriel Mizrahi: So overall, the relationship sounded pretty great. She felt that her boyfriend offered her love, emotional presence. There was a serious relationship, but she was torn between her love for him and her desire to maintain these relationships with her family.

And so she was asking, are these obstacles too significant for us to overcome?

Jordan Harbinger: How much do I care about my family's opinions?

Gabriel Mizrahi: How do I handle relatives who seem determined to undermine our happiness? This is what she was wrestling with. So she just reached out with an update and it goes, hi, Gabe and Jordan.

I wanted to send a quick update on my situation. I am thrilled to report that we are now living together and happy. That is great.

Congratulations. It was a long road getting here, especially dealing with Australian family law. He actually had to take his ex to court to just get her to leave his home.

Wow. Okay. During the process, it came to light that she had purchased a house with family money and kept it a complete secret from him.

Jordan Harbinger: Damn. Okay. I wonder what that was about.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, I have a theory, but yeah, she had simply stayed in his home. I don't know the motivation.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, I got theories about that too.

Gabriel Mizrahi: One theory. I really only have one theory. Yeah.

Unless that was an investment property and she didn't want to miss out on the rental income or something. I can only think of one reason she would not leave her ex-husband's house.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, for sure. She didn't want to let go of him, which is a little sad, but yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It is a little sad, but you know, it's not squatting if it's for love, hun.

Jordan Harbinger: It's not emotional manipulation if I subscribe to AARP magazine.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly. I suppose it's possible that she was just scared to move out and start over. Maybe she did not have designs on him, but that would be my first guess.

Jordan Harbinger: Either way, bold move. Just couldn't let go of her old life. Poor woman, but also...

Come on, man. Yes, it's catchy, and the crowds love it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: On top of that, my dad has turned around and is now a big fan of my partner. My dad was going through a really unpleasant situation with his own divorce, and my partner went out of his way to spend the whole day with him to get an important piece of furniture back. Just being present and supporting him through it.

I think that gesture won dad over.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Yeah, I did not see that coming. This is the father who she said basically abandoned her as a child, the originator of the very same daddy issues her family was accusing her of having.

The issuer of the issues.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The progenitor himself.

Jordan Harbinger: It's a master class in how to win over a skeptical parent, I'll say that much.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I love that all it took was helping him get a vintage ottoman back from his ex-wife. That and whatever they talked about in the U-Haul on the way home.

Jordan Harbinger: I know, literally.

His dad's like, no way is Eileen keeping the Teakwood Davenport. This is a family heirloom. And her boyfriend's like, I got you, bro.

Hold my Australian beer. Yeah, hold my Foster's.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's Australian for me. I'm going to repo this for you real quick. Hold up, Papa.

Jordan Harbinger: Honestly, it's kind of sweet. It's like those dads on Instagram who insist they don't want a pet and then the wife or the daughter or whatever gets a dog and the dad and the dog are totally inseparable except that the dog is his daughter's boyfriend.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And can drive a U-Haul.

Jordan Harbinger: Right. What an arc. This is a great campaign for U-Haul, by the way.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, it really would be. Relationships are made and broken in those things.

Jordan Harbinger: They are. Huge life events take place in those things. If you survive a U-Haul experience, that's real love.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's forever. Yeah. I mentioned to Dad the other day his comment about my partner being too old.

His response? I never said that.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, hilarious. Too old? Nope.

That doesn't sound like me. I don't want to deal with any of this. Yeah.

That must have been another your dad. Yes. Just play him the episode where we took your first letter.

That should clear up the record. I mean, it's funny. He's just one of those guys who's like, that reality doesn't fit how I feel right now, so I'm going to ignore it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: She corners her dad in the living room like Chris Hansen and plays the old segment like, jog your memory, Dad. What did you mean by that?

Jordan Harbinger: Do you understand why this is difficult for me to believe? By the way, we're filming. Why don't you grab a seat?

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's the famous line, right? As he sits on the ottoman her boyfriend stole back from his ex-wife. That's right.

Jordan Harbinger: Feedback Friday. Correcting revisionist history since 2018.

Gabriel Mizrahi: She goes on, there is a certain class of boomer that never remembers and never apologizes.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, there is. I feel that. So side note about this, people say this about boomers a lot, right?

They just deny things that happen and they rarely apologize for stuff. That is a bit of a stereotype, isn't it?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Won't go to therapy. That's not completely true though, because we hear from listeners in this generation who do go to therapy, who do want to talk about these things.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, right. I wonder if this is really a boomer thing or if it's just like, you know, an older person thing.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, maybe Gen X is going to be the exact same way pretty soon. Maybe we're going to be like that in 40 or 50 years.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, yeah, our generation clearly embraced mental health much more than our parents' generation did. So that's a real thing.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. It's like what you and your dad talked about in your interview a few months ago.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. Yeah, their generation definitely didn't have the same attitude to therapy or even access to it, really. I mean, it also was not in the zeitgeist constantly.

They were not scrolling video after video on TikTok or Instagram from people talking about their trauma and attachment styles or whatever. They just stuffed it down and kept going and then had a heart attack at 63. So talking about difficult stuff, owning up to mistakes, introspecting, maybe that really is harder for that generation.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Painting with a very broad brush here, but maybe that's, I don't know, maybe there's something to it. But there are also plenty of 20-somethings who can't do that either. I mean, isn't that like the stereotype about Gen Z, that they're super afraid of conflicts and everything makes them anxious?

Jordan Harbinger: Again, exactly. Broad brush. But is this really a generational thing or do our parents just drive us crazy sometimes no matter what generation they're in?

And it can be hard for parents to own up to mistakes.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think that's more likely, but I'm sure it's that much harder if your dad stormed the beaches of Normandy.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. The D-Day parenting did a number on the generation for sure.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The only remaining wrinkle is his kids. They still seem quite entitled and refuse to engage with us, so that hasn't been resolved yet. Bummer.

I'm sorry about that. But overall, we are good. Settled, thriving, and enjoying our life together without the heavy cloud hanging over us.

Thank you both for the grounded advice and perspective when I was in the thick of it. Signed, still in this relationship that's fertile. And no, it didn't ultimately curdle, because despite some critics who are quite verbal, we've managed to overcome two of our three major hurdles.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, that's a heartwarming letter.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm happy for them. I liked them back then. I like them even more now.

Jordan Harbinger: They were facing a bunch of obstacles the first time she wrote it. It sounds like they have two less now. Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So wife's out of the house, finally moved into her secret house. Yeah. Weird.

Dad's on their side. Those are big wins. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: For sure. Yeah, they deserve them. I'm just trying to figure out what to make of the kids.

Yeah. What is that about? Hard to say.

Why are they so anti? I don't get it. I could actually understand a certain reasonable level of suspicion about a new person.

Despite what I said a moment ago, watching your 60-year-old dad shack up with a 40-year-old, even though age becomes less and less of a thing as you get up there, maybe it's not crazy for them to be like, and what does this woman want? And how many ways are we going to have to split our inheritance now? But at what point do you go like, okay, they are clearly in love.

He's allowed to choose a new partner. She's not going anywhere.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I can't tell if the kids finally met her or they're still staying away, but even if they've met her, they're refusing to engage. Right? So it sounds like they don't have much contact either way.

It's not like they really got to know her and they're like, this woman is bad news. We don't want to talk to her. They don't know her and they're still icing her out.

That sucks.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I mean, he did evict mom from the family home and that probably, you know, they're just on mom's side. Um, so, okay.

So there's probably more of that story, but the kids are being a little bit dickish. Fine. But why?

Again, is it because they're on mom's side? Is it because they've seen this movie before? Is it because they did meet her or heard about her from other family members and they just decided they don't like her?

Is it about assets only or are they just judgy? You know, how did they get that way? There's some explanation here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But probably nothing she can fix if they literally will not give her a chance.

Jordan Harbinger: So yeah, except to just continue to be kind and respectful with them. So it doesn't develop into even more of a thing.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Also, she said they refused to engage with us. So they're not really talking to dad either or not talking to him about her. That's a little curious.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. So maybe they have some issues from before with him and now their beef transfers to anybody that he dates, which is also not her fault or they never want their dad to find a new partner. So anybody he dates is the enemy.

I don't know. These, it's a little annoying how this stuff shakes out, but you never really know. I mean, these are adult children, right?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes.

Jordan Harbinger: Adult children. Yeah.

So who knows about all the baggage? It's, you know, if it's teenagers, you can kind of guess what's going on, but with adult children, it's like a whole lifetime of stuff.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm just glad she's not letting that stop her from moving forward in the relationship. It might just be one of those things she has to accept. These kids are not fans.

That's how it is.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. It's sad that she can't enjoy at least a decent relationship with his kids. That doesn't seem like too much to ask, but yeah, everyone's got their baggage.

This is his, these kids who won't give her the time of day slash view her as an interloper in their estate. If I'm being cynical, which, you know, hard not to be sometimes.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Maybe she just needs to go rescue one of their prized possessions from their exes. Take a page from her boyfriend's playbook. Maybe that'll fix it.

Jordan Harbinger: There's an idea. She steals back a mid-century lamp and a collection of exotic fountain pens from the entitled kids' exes and surprises them at Christmas. That'll do it.

That's all you need.

Gabriel Mizrahi: What else?

Jordan Harbinger: Anyway, thank you for the update. Super pumped for you guys. You sound like a sweet couple.

I'm just, I'm glad things are going well. The problems you're solving, they're not just problems. They're milestones in your lives and in your relationships, and I'm glad you and your boyfriend are moving in the right direction.

I still hold out hope for these kids. There's got to be a way to make progress there. Keep your mind open.

Keep your heart open. You never know. Might just take time.

Sending you and your dude a big hug and as few AARP promotional mailings as possible. And wishing you all the best. You know what'll go great in your secret house?

The fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by SimpliSafe.

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Gabriel Mizrahi: All right, next up. Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I work as a maintenance manager at a medium-sized nursery.

We have about 100 greenhouses that my team and I keep functional. Over the years, I've discovered a few consistent problems that don't have good solutions. In my off time, I've been developing a widget that would ameliorate, if not completely solve, one such pain point.

I currently have a working prototype and I'm building a beta version that I could start using in pitches and hopefully sales. Wow, fantastic. I love stuff like this.

Best way to start a business. Find a problem. Solve it.

Brilliant.

Jordan Harbinger: Only way to start a business, I'd argue. It's really cool because how many other maintenance managers at nurseries noticed this problem over the years, shrugged and went like, well, that sure is annoying. Be nice if somebody did something about it and then went back to fixing the greenhouse roof or whatever.

But this guy actually did something about it. That's an entrepreneur. Well done.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm good friends with the owner of a greenhouse supplier, a place that provides physical parts for the greenhouse itself. And if my product is good, I'm sure you could sell them. But I really have no idea about the business side of this.

What type of business structure do I need before I get to that point? Do I need a contract, an LLC, or a patent? What should I be doing business-wise to give this product the best chance at success?

Signed, a builder seeking success and a way to protect all of this progress so my business can effloresce.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay, good questions. So like I said, I love your mindset. I love your ingenuity.

I love the follow through. This is how great businesses are born. It's inspiring, man.

I'm genuinely pumped for you on this. So you keep nurturing those qualities, nurture them like those beefsteak tomatoes in the greenhouse you're going to ditch in a year because your company takes off, and you marry them with a couple practices that I'll share with you in a minute here, and I think they'll take you pretty far. So before we knock out the legal stuff, one lesson I learned over the years.

Legal stuff, tax stuff, bureaucratic stuff, it matters of course, and you've got to mind your P's and Q's. I'm glad you're on top of that. But it's also really wise not to put the cart before the horse and start worrying about stuff too early.

If all goes well, pretty soon you will have to worry about all this, and you should, and better to be a little ahead of the ball than behind it. But right now, I have a feeling your time and energy are really best spent on A, making a great product, and B, getting it into people's hands. That takes time, that takes work, always more time and work than you think, and that has to happen before your company is a real company of any kind.

So my big picture advice is, don't get too snagged on all this stuff, you can get it done pretty quickly, it ain't rocket surgery. I would keep an eye on the ball in terms of putting your effort where it's going to make the biggest impact, not spending 17 hours ChatGPT-ing different legal structures for your company and hiring a lawyer to file immaculate paperwork eight months before you need it. But that time will come eventually, and we wanted a real expert's opinion about all this, so we reached out to Patty Eberwine, a business litigation attorney specializing in commercial disputes and a friend of the show.

And Patty gave us a great little crash course on this stuff. So if you start a business, you are already a business. You're generally what's called a sole proprietor.

That's the default structure if you file no formal paperwork for your entity. That's fine, but what that means is, you and the business are legally identical, and there's no protection for your personal assets from debts or lawsuits. It's just you out in the world doing business.

So if this greenhouse HVAC pump or whatever you created, I don't know, breaks and burns somebody and they sue you, theoretically it could be your house and money market account on the line. You don't want that. And that's where the structure of the LLC comes into play, a limited liability company.

The LLC is designed for smaller businesses. They're cheaper to run, they have a different code that governs them, you don't have to issue shares or board meetings, filing is easier than it is for corporations. And the principal function, Patty explained, is to protect you, the owner, from personal liability.

So in all likelihood, yeah, you're probably going to want an LLC. It's not hard. You can file the paperwork on your own or with an online legal service in California.

I think it's like 800 bucks a year, pretty straightforward. But Patty's thought here was, if you don't have any exposure to legal liability, there's no need for the LLC yet. If you're spending nights and weekends in your basement working on your prototype, I would not worry about this.

But once your product is out in the world, you're going to want that protection, most likely. And Patty said a good moment to make this call is when you get your first purchase order or you make your first sale, or you have a high degree of confidence that you're about to, that's a good moment to file for the LLC. But I would say in your case, because you plan to beta test this thing with customers, even potentially before they are paying you for it, if you're out in the world using the product or somebody else is, I would create that LLC first.

That way, if anything happens, you are protected. Even if you don't have money coming into the LLC yet. But once you do, from that point on, you've maintained separate funds, separate bank accounts.

You don't co-mingle funds between your personal life and your business. That's how the LLC will protect you.

Gabriel Mizrahi: As for a patent, Patty's take was, yes, if you're really serious about this product, you should consider filing for a patent. Obviously a patent would protect all of the work that you've put in, it would prevent people from copying this product, maybe doing it for cheaper in another country or something or just straight up stealing it. And if you're planning on beta testing your product soon, then I would make this a priority because once it's out in the world and people can study it, obviously your exposure goes way up.

Patty said it wouldn't hurt to consult with an IP attorney, but she said you can probably also file this yourself. You can learn all about it at USPTO.gov. That's the United States Patent and Trademark Office. They have a ton of resources on the website.

The patent application is right there on the website. This is also another thing that a service like LegalZoom can help you do. Again, fairly straightforward if the product is not too complex.

Patty said that it might take the USPTO like nine months to a year or something like that to actually issue the patent, so best to start ASAP.

Jordan Harbinger: For sure, because patent protection, that doesn't begin until the patent is granted. But once you do file a patent application, you establish a priority date over somebody else who files a competing application later for the same invention. You can use the term patent pending, which is fancy.

You reduce the risk of somebody else patenting your invention first. So this is pretty important in my view if you really have something unique and you're serious about marketing it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Patty said that you might also want to trademark the name of your product. That way other people can't capitalize on your name, on your business goodwill. Patent protects product.

Trademark protects name, brand, logo, that kind of stuff. But Patty said this is probably lower priority because how likely is it that you're going to be so successful so quickly that people are going to want to copy your brand immediately? Again, to Jordan's point, you might want to put that time and money into product development and sales and marketing and the patent, stuff that's going to move the needle for you.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I agree. Trademarking is like, by the way, that's like a Saturday afternoon. That's if you have no idea what you're doing.

It's really easy. If you have an amazing name and killer logo and it would just crush you to lose them, spend the 350 bucks or whatever. But yeah, very much lower priority there.

Now about the kind of contracts that you need. If your product is something customers can buy in a one-time transaction, I'm not sure if you plan to sell it directly or wholesale it to stores and distributors or what. But either way, if it's just a straightforward sale like that, Patty said you probably don't need a whole contract.

You just need the purchase order, something like that. If the thing you're selling is more complicated, for example, if the sale has unique terms about a payment schedule or it involves providing ongoing service, like if it breaks, you guys repair it, that kind of thing, yeah, you might need a contract. And if you're talking to a lot of people about your product, especially manufacturing partners, you might want a nondisclosure agreement to protect you, an NDA.

This comes down to how proprietary your technology is, the risk that someone's going to take your idea, your personal threshold for that risk. So bottom line, all you're doing with these legal structures is you're protecting against these risks. Patty said nothing terrible is going to happen immediately if you don't do this stuff.

At some point, you must do this stuff. But it really comes down to your risk tolerance at that stage. My advice for giving this product the best chance at success, it's extremely simple, but it's powerful.

I think your main job right now is to stay laser-focused on the problem that you're solving and make something really good, excellent. You're already doing this. You have to keep doing this.

And that means continuing to make an awesome product, getting it into the hands of customers as soon as possible, maybe even giving it away for free to a few people early on who are, I don't know, decision makers, whatever, influencers. The sooner you do this, the faster you'll move. Then get feedback from them, study how it works, study what they need, iterate on it, make the product better and better.

Or depending on what you learn, pivoting to another product or changing your strategy or shifting to a different type of customer. That's another reason that this beta testing phase is going to be so useful for you. It also means creating a great experience around the product, being super responsive to your customers, making it easy for them to buy from you and use your product, treating them well.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, that sounds obvious, but I'm always amazed by how many companies out there make a really good product, but they just suck at being there for you when you need them. And then your whole experience of them changes.

Jordan Harbinger: Totally. To me, that's part of the product. And when they're not there, when I need them, I often jump ship.

I've definitely, I mean, I'm sure we've all done this. I will take a lower quality or a product that's not as good if the company is super responsive because I know they're working on the product and I know I can get help when I need it. I will always pick the company over the product almost all the time.

Or I'll take a chance on a new company, a new company to me, I mean, whose product I don't know everything about, but it's just amazing at customer service. Because that to me is a sign that you can just rely on them. I appreciate that.

Any company that treats its customers well is usually on top of the product stuff or soon will be. It doesn't always go the other way around.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So respond to your customers' emails within a day, return their phone calls, be available, help them troubleshoot, treat them well, all of these things.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, listen to them, take them seriously, learn from them, all that, which kind of gets at the other big thing I would do. This will be a surprise to nobody, but take your relationships in and around this company very seriously. With your customers, of course, with partners, with employees, with your vendors, with other players in your industry, even with your competitors.

You could think of a company as a product, and it is. If your greenhouse HVAC pump isn't great, you don't have a business. But you could also think of a company as a nexus of relationships.

And those relationships, what you offer in those relationships, what you learn from those relationships, what you take from those relationships, how you tap into them to learn and grow and create new opportunities, I feel very strongly that that's what's going to determine your success. But a lot of entrepreneurs, even talented ones, they don't think like that. They think, well, as long as people need my product, I'm good.

Okay, sure, but if you don't put your customers first, not as a source of revenue, but as human beings who have a need that you're dedicated to solving, you're only going to go so far. And I imagine that's even more important in niche fields like yours. You know the drill.

Six-Minute Networking is where it's at, sixminutenetworking.com. It's a free course. Everything in there is just as useful for an entrepreneur building a company as it is for somebody, say, looking for a new job.

But it's the mindset you want to adopt. This idea of being generous and focused on other people's needs, being genuinely interested in them as a matter of policy, that can be the difference between a new business taking off or just chugging along or dying. Whether you're an LLC or an S Corp or you trademarked your logo or you have ironclad contracts with your first 10 customers, those are just footnotes, important footnotes at a certain point, not ones I would ignore when you have thousands of dollars coming in, of course, but again, still footnotes.

What really matters is these attitudes and these practices and the values, really, that are going to make customers fall in love with you. But the best way to make customers fall in love with you, I've learned, is to just fall in love with them. If you do that, you follow their needs wherever they lead, and I'm confident that you will be heading in the right direction.

I'm excited for you, man. I think all this stuff, it just gets me pumped up to find out about new inventions and people just stepping into the arena. I'm more pumped than that HVAC pump you invented.

Keep up the great work. Write us in a year when you're featured in Greenhouse Magazine with your beefsteak tomatoes and you're selling to greenhouses across the country. It's going to be awesome.

And, you know, just finally don't yell, "Heil Hitler" at an Absinthe show. That's another good business practice. Just looking out for you.

But I just, I'm still high on that man's shame. Big thanks to Patty Eberwine for her expertise on this one. And now step into our greenhouse and enjoy some ripe deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show.

We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Mint Mobile. Remember asking for something as a kid and hearing, well, wait until the holidays.

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If you want to jump into discussions with other listeners about specific episodes or anything about the show, that's over there on the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. Now, back to Feedback Friday.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay, next up. Hello, Jordan and Gabe. Four months ago, I was hired for a new job.

When I was interviewing, I was hired to help with one particular aspect of the product. I have a niche set of industry technical skills that the company was looking for at the time, and they sent me an offer letter surprisingly fast and with an over 50% raise. Suffice it to say, I accepted the job.

I've since come to learn that the company, prior to my start date, also hired a ton of contractors as a stopgap measure to keep the project moving. Since then, a majority of the responsibilities that I would have been in charge of are covered. In tandem, the contractors have an additional set of technical skills that I lack.

I brought up the fact that I'm weak in these skills during my interview, and the company was receptive to me learning on the job. But with the contractors covering the job I was hired for and already possessing the technical skills that I lack, I've been assigned smaller pathfinder tasks. That seemed to lead to the conclusion that quote, the most reasonable approach doesn't require my particular skill set, unquote.

Pathfinder tasks, what is that? I had never heard of this either. So a pathfinder task is an exploratory assignment that is designed to figure out how to approach a new problem or an unfamiliar problem before a company commits significant resources.

So I think it basically means experimenting and testing assumptions and developing a process that other people can follow. The goal is not to complete the task, just to discover a path for future work, apparently.

Jordan Harbinger: That sounds like corporate speak for, we have no idea what you're supposed to be working on, can you figure it out for us?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Correct. That sounds about right. I mean, maybe it's productive in some cases, but in this case, it sounds like they don't quite know what they're doing.

Today, I learned that the company is also likely going to go to outside suppliers to complete the job that I do have experience and technical skills in. I'm now expecting my termination letter. Should I take a sabbatical and learn the skills that I lacked, which would have kept me a viable employee?

Should I immediately look for a job in a field that I already have experience in, but pays much less? Should I work with my boss and supervisor to come up with a training or learning path to catch me up? Or do something else entirely?

Travel, take a part-time job, follow in Gabe's footsteps, and write a killer screenplay? Definitely do not do that. You have enough problems already, my man.

Jordan Harbinger: Can confirm. Would not recommend running away to the circus like our boy here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Certainly not before you've officially been kicked out of the carnival.

Jordan Harbinger: No. Try to sell an R-rated workplace comedy in Hollywood in the age of TikTok. That cannot be the risk mitigation strategy for my company doesn't need my skills and I'm probably getting fired.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Screenwriting is the ultimate pathfinder career, and it's almost always a dead end. So I'm just going to save you a ton of trouble there, my man. Signed, stuck in rumination, this fixation on my potential termination, because I can't help but feel that I'm losing my current station.

Jordan Harbinger: I forgot to show you my shirt, bro.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Ask me about my butthole. That was so great because I had a window covering the bottom fifth of the screen and I couldn't see the punchline.

Jordan Harbinger: It's from a sponsor. It's like a bidet sponsor. And when we saw that, we were like, holy shit, who's going to wear that?

And I was like, I'm sleeping in it for sure because it's like super soft and cozy. You could get kicked out of an Absinthe show for that one.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Or put up on stage for sure, yeah. That's true too, yeah. I'm sure you're not the only one wearing an ask me about my butthole t-shirt in the Caesars Palace that night.

Yeah, yeah. No, you might be right.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay, well, weird tangent to my butthole. Anyway, first of all, I'm really sorry things are playing out this way. It happens mostly, not just Feedback Friday, but your career.

It happens, it's usually not personal, even though it's, well, it's personally happening to you, of course. In fact, in all likelihood, it probably says a lot more about your employer and what they need or how little they know what they need that you're in this position. That said, I do think it's smart of you to be connecting these dots, reading the writing on the wall, getting out ahead of any potential termination instead of, I don't know, burying your head in the sand or just twiddling your thumbs until HR calls you into a meeting, which is what a lot of people do.

We wanted to run all of this by a real expert, so we reached out to Joanna Tate, friend of the show and HR professional for over 20 years. And Joanna also really felt for you. Your story made her wonder what the plan was when they hired you.

She said it sounds a lot like people scrambling to snatch up scraps of work like ducks in a pond as priorities keep changing. And she knows how incredibly stressful that is, especially when you've just made a major career move. But her first question was, are you just assuming you're going to be terminated or has that actually been communicated to you?

Joanna's feeling was she'd want to know from the right source before making any decisions, because you might still have some influence over this situation and/or your bosses aren't sitting in their offices going, okay, how soon till we fire Brad? There's also so much more to know about why your company is going to outside contractors now. Has your manager explained why?

Is there something about the work that requires a broader skill set than yours? Are they just throwing money at problems because they're freaking out about them?

Gabriel Mizrahi: All good questions. Joanna also wanted to know, are there any other employees who were hired around the same time who are now facing a similar situation? I don't know if that makes the odds better or worse that you keep your job, but it might tell you something about whether this is more about you or more about your company.

Because as Joanna pointed out, there's a legitimate question here about how the company really planned for your role, whether their needs have changed since you were hired, which is okay, of course, that happens. But also, was the plan murky from the beginning? Did they even have a plan for you to develop in the ways that you told them?

All of which raises some very big questions for her.

Jordan Harbinger: Also, if they hired you, but your manager didn't share any clear expectations for your first 30, 60, 90 days, if they didn't give you specific goals to hit, if they didn't give you opportunities to level up on those skills you told them you needed to learn, you were just kind of thrown into the mix and left to figure things out as everything was changing. That is not setting you up for success. At the same time, if you join a place and you don't get those things, then I do think it's on you to seek them out, at least try.

That's part of being a great employee. That's leadership, really. So Joanna's larger question for you is, have you had any meaningful conversations with your manager about your performance, your skill gaps, your future with the company, or are you just scrambling to piece together what's happening and then jumping to the worst possible scenario, which is tempting, I know, but not necessarily the most productive, or again, even true.

So Joanna's advice to you is this, definitely request a conversation, an intentional, scheduled, not rushed conversation with your manager, and literally say to them, hey, thank you for making time for me. I can see that there's a lot of change on our team right now. I want to be useful here.

I want to make an impact. I want us to be in sync. So tell me, how has my role evolved since I was hired?

What do you expect from me going forward? Is my employment at risk? What opportunities exist right now for me to develop the skills that I'm missing?

What else can I be doing right now?

Gabriel Mizrahi: I might also go into that meeting with a few ideas. So you're not just going, hey, can you tell me what to do? Maybe it's more like, I've been thinking about how I could contribute the most and learn what I need to learn.

Here are some ideas. What do you think? What else could I do?

I think that's a good look. Joanna's take is, if there's a realistic path forward, that's great. Make a plan based on what you learn.

That's your next step. And that might buy you some time at the company, or it'll show you that they are not about to let you go and you can relax a little.

Jordan Harbinger: And if the role has changed, if the company no longer needs your skills, you want to know that now instead of spending time and energy trying to fix a problem that is not yours to fix.

Gabriel Mizrahi: In the meantime, Joanna said, keep doing your job, document your accomplishments, any important conversations you're having or hearing, and definitely avoid making a decision to resign just to get ahead of a potential termination. She is a big fan of exploring the training path. If there's a realistic opportunity to develop those skills, if the company still has a role for you, she would not automatically take a sabbatical or accept a significant pay cut before understanding your options, if that's how this plays out.

And if the company does end up saying goodbye, Joanna would encourage you to ask about the reasons, ask about the final pay, benefits, any severance or transition support that may be available. And that could be an opportunity for you to pursue training, take a breather, explore something new, except moving to LA and trying to be a screenwriter, of course. But you can make that decision with way better information than you have today.

Jordan Harbinger: It's interesting. Joanna ended up at exactly the same place we ended up, which is whether you stay at your company or they let you go, that actually shouldn't change your strategy too much. Either way, the best thing you can do is dig the well before you get thirsty, right?

You should be doing that anyway. So keep your skills sharp, cultivate your relationships, have three to five people you could call tomorrow to ask for an assist if you had to, all that good stuff, all that good Six-Minute Networking stuff. Joanna's advice, regardless of what your manager says, start quietly exploring other options outside of this organization.

That doesn't mean you have to do it immediately or accept a huge pay cut or try to write a screenplay to get by unless you want to, which you shouldn't want to because look what it's done to Gabe and his hairline. Joanna would also encourage you to take a huge step back from all this and get clear on some things. Get away from screens and advice and chatter and noise and every podcast but this one and give yourself two hours with a notebook and your own thoughts.

Write down what skills you want to use, what goals or problems you want to be involved in, what's important to you in a working relationship, what you need financially, where you realistically see yourself going next. Joanna said that the goal is not to solve everything in two hours. You want to distinguish what you want from what you're afraid of, which I think is a really important exercise, especially for you right now, when there's a lot of anxiety at play.

And from here on out, during an interview, make sure you understand what the role is exactly, why it's open, how it fits into the organization, what the goals and expectations are, how success is going to be measured. All this data can really help you decide whether that job is the right move. Her last gem for you was, remember that a job not working out, it doesn't mean you've failed.

Sometimes the role or the timing or the organization just isn't what either side expected. You can be a talented, capable employee and still struggle in a dysfunctional environment. I've seen this myself.

My previous company had a ton of talent come through the door and leave because they looked around and they just noped out after a few months. So I wouldn't necessarily draw the conclusion that there's a huge problem with you. Beyond a paycheck, you want to feel that you belong in an organization.

Your skills are valued, you understand how you contribute, there's a path for you to grow. So if those things are missing, obviously something has to change. And these practices are how you can do that, inside and outside this place.

Sorry, you're stressing, but I'm also confident that all of this is going to work out if you meet it the right way. Good luck and big thanks to Joanna Tate for her insight and wisdom here. You can connect with Joanna on LinkedIn.

We'll link to her in the show notes. By the way, you can reach us, friday@jordanharbinger.com. Keep those emails concise, try to use a descriptive subject line.

That makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're finding dead squirrels in your mailbox, your stepdad's got your nudes, your neighbors are eavesdropping on your therapy sessions through the wall, or Father Time's knocking on your door and you want to open up your relationship with a long-term partner to make the most of your one precious life on Earth. Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up, friday@jordanharbinger.com.

We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. And now we want you to be a Pathfinder, straight to the deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and find our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do. Take a moment, support those sponsors. They're all searchable and clickable on the website at jordanharbinger.com/deals. We're redoing that whole page. It should be much easier to use. And hey, if there's still a problem with any code or anything else on that page, email me, jordan@jordanharbinger.com.

We're happy to help you out because it is that important that you support those who support the show. And now, time for the show. Time for the recommendation of the week.

Sound Clip: I am addicted to lip filler.

Gabriel Mizrahi: My recommendation of the week is a short documentary called Only the Lonely by Violet Du Feng. Basically, the documentary follows a bunch of young men in China, one in particular, this delivery driver. And these guys are trying and mostly failing to find love in a country with tons and tons of men, very few women, and very few opportunities for these guys to talk about what they're going through, work on their social skills, just improve themselves in general.

There are some incredible scenes in this documentary where a bunch of these guys get together to try to get better at dating, which is kind of hard to watch, but it's also so interesting. But actually, my favorite moments were about the extreme loneliness that these guys feel. They capture that really well and how there's really no way out of that loneliness for cultural reasons, for economic reasons, for China reasons.

You see how they try to cope with it, but it's kind of crushing and it's heartbreaking. And for me, it was one of the most vivid glimpses into the psychology of people, men in this case, but I think people in general from a very different world. I stumbled across this doc on YouTube and I sent it to Jordan because I thought he would like it.

And we ended up having a really interesting chat about it. And I think you guys are going to like it too.

Jordan Harbinger: Gabe, I think it's funny you said there's very few women. It's China. There's probably like 500 million women, but you're right.

There are 30 to 35 million fewer women than there are men because of the one child policy and various reasons around that. It's really sad and gross, but they aborted a lot. Relatively few women, yeah.

So there's relatively, so there's a huge cadre of men that just can't ever get married to anybody probably or possibly because they're at the bottom of the sort of socioeconomic stack. If you're a scooter DoorDash driver who works 14 hours a day and you don't own a house, you don't own a car, you're going to be at the bottom of the pile in China. It's really tough.

I did watch that. I really enjoyed that and I was pretty bummed after I watched it. I'm not going to lie, but I was also weirdly riveted because you watch these guys, the main guy they follow especially, and you're like, this is not some mama's boy turd who just isn't trying.

He really wants to get better. He's a nice guy. Seemingly he's hardworking.

He's just desperate for human connection and sort of this combination of society and culture and family and economics and blah, blah, blah is just doing such a number on them. There's got to be a solution to this and there's a scene in which a bunch of these Chinese guys work with a dating coach. He's essentially a pickup artist, right?

It's kind of like a throwback to 2010. This is why I sent it to you. They're doing their cold approaches.

They're approaching women in the street and they're learning how to write their dating app profiles and they're trying to decide whether to lie about owning a property, which I guess is a feature on the app. The guy's like, I don't want to lie. I don't have a property.

He's like, you have to lie or you will get zero matches, which again, that is just brutal and fascinating thing to see on film and it says a lot about China and Chinese culture. It's true though. I mean, my own mother-in-law was like, when I met Jen and I went to their house, she asked, I think I've told this on the show before.

She was like, how much money do you have? She asked me that and I was like, what? And I told her because I'm like, I don't know.

And I'd been warned by Asian buddies that that's a thing. I just didn't think it would happen so fast. She's like, oh yeah, because buying a house in this area is really expensive and I was like, why are they so obsessed with this?

And then about a year, maybe two years later, I'm sitting in the same chair in the same kitchen and she's like, how much money do you have? And I thought, oh, that's funny. She must've forgotten.

And I told her and she goes, oh, you saved a lot of money since the last time I asked you.

Gabriel Mizrahi: While you're wearing that, ask me about my butthole t-shirt.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I was wearing my, ask me about my butthole t-shirt. Exactly. No, I just thought like, oh, it's funny.

She forgot. So she must not be paying that close attention. And au contraire, mon frere, she actually had noted the amount and wanted to see if I'd saved more or if I had less or the same.

So yeah, that's a cultural thing. I did not take it personally and I thought it was kind of funny. And thank God I passed the test, right?

Like, oh, okay, that's pretty good. You saved more than, she was like mildly impressed by it and let me know. I thought that was hysterical.

Anyway, it's funny too, because watching these scenes was really like watching an upside down version of my old career, right? These guys are approaching women in the street and I thought like, oh man, I'm so glad these guys have somebody helping them a little bit. And another part of me was just thinking like, oh my God, these guys are so cooked.

You can be the smoothest whatever in Beijing, and they were not, but if you don't own a house and a car, it's like you just can't even get to the starting line.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Really interesting piece. Really good find. Only the Lonely by Violet Du Feng.

We'll link to it in the show notes.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, and by the way, it's like 20 minutes long, right? 15 minutes long. This is not a two hour sit down type of engagement.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No, it's one you can watch on your lunch break.

Jordan Harbinger: You'll love it. 100%, 100%.

Gabriel Mizrahi: All right, next up. So before we wrap up today, Jordan told me a story a few days ago that I had never heard and that I really loved. It's a story that, like a lot of Jordan's old stories, is incredibly random, and in a way it's kind of absurd.

It almost has the quality of a really good dream, but it also captures something really special, I think, and a theme that we come back to time and time again, and actually it's come up several times on today's episode, so I think today is a perfect day to share it. Jordan, you want to tell us? Take it away.

Jordan Harbinger: Sure. Yeah, thanks, man. This is so funny.

So this is, I think, 2006. I'd literally just moved to New York. It was probably my first or second week there, and I was riding the subway, and there was a guy sitting next to me, and he had two huge cases with him, Pelican cases, if you know what those are, like gear cases, and he was looking at a paper map, if you remember those.

This is, I think, a year before the iPhone, so people were still using maps. Anyway, I figured, all right, he's a tourist or he's here on business, and they announced the stop on the train, but it was so loud, you couldn't barely hear it. So I said to him, hey, this is 34th in case it helps, and he looks at me and he's like, yeah, I know.

Kind of deadpan, little bit rude, and I said, oh, sorry, I thought maybe you weren't from here. I didn't want you to miss your stop, and immediately he's like, oh, yeah, thanks. Sorry, I didn't mean to snap.

You just got a very New York answer from me because I'm from here, and I'm guessing you're not. And I was like, yeah, no, it's all good. Sorry about that.

He's like, no, it's okay, man. Where are you from? I said Michigan.

I just moved here. So we keep riding the train, and we keep talking, and eventually I'm like, well, look, do you want help with your cases? And he kind of rolls his eyes, and he's like, no, man, I can handle it.

That's why I'm on the subway. It's not my first rodeo. So again, I'm like, oh, yeah, that makes sense.

Sorry. And he's like, you're apologizing for offering help? You really aren't from around here.

And again, he's not wrong. I probably had even more Midwest in me than I do now. So again, we keep riding, we keep talking, and then out of the blue, he's like, listen, you want a job?

Is that why you offered to help? And I kind of chuckled. I'm like, no, I'm actually a lawyer.

I just thought maybe you needed help, like going up the stairs with your Pelican cases, you know, that kind of thing. And he's like, all right, what are you doing this weekend? I was like, I don't know, shopping for bed sheets, probably, hitting the deli, going to the gym.

I don't know, whatever. And he's like, well, I'm setting up a concert for this rich old lady upstate. I've got a ton of gear.

Why don't you come and help set things up? You can watch the show. You can see a little bit of upstate New York, get to know part of the city you probably never would go to otherwise.

So I'm kind of intrigued. And I think, okay, this is his way of apologizing for being a little bit of a dick. And I'm like, all right, why not?

I'll take a minimum wage gig on a Saturday. I got nothing else to do. I don't know anybody else here.

It's a fun way to see the city, talk to some native guy who probably lived here for like 50 years. So he gives me the address to his warehouse. He's like, meet me here.

And we go our separate ways. Saturday morning rolls around. I show up at the warehouse.

And when I get there, he's like, oh, hey, little surprise that I actually showed up, I think. And we get into this like white box truck, you know, U-Haul type thing. You know those trucks you see in New York on the road?

And they're all spray painted because they have to park them in the ghetto a lot of the time. And they've got like tags all over the whole thing. So it's one of those.

And we drive like 45 minutes. An hour or whatever upstate. He pulls up to this massive estate in upstate New York.

Absolutely ridiculous. It's something you'd see in a movie or like the Devil Wears Prada. They're hanging out at one of these houses having a party, okay?

So we start carrying these cases of audio gear into the house. Tons of them. Through the back, into the backyard.

And I was somewhat familiar with how Pelican cases are and how some of the gear works because I was playing around with podcasting already by then. He was pretty stoked about that. So we're setting up and I'm like, what's the occasion?

He's like, oh, it's her 90th birthday, this lady. And I'm like, wow, that's cool. That explains why everybody who's here already is early to a party and has sunspots.

And I'm like, all right, who's playing? In my head, it's going to be some jazz singer I've never heard of. And yeah, I don't know.

Some generic party band doing 80s covers for prior, 60s covers for private parties, 50s covers for all I know. And like, I'm just not going to give a crap about whoever's performing. Because I'm 25 and I listened to Kaskade and Deadmau5 and some crooner who moonlights at a piano bar in Midtown and does weekend gigs at old ladies' houses is going to be a total snooze, right?

So he's like, oh, I guarantee you're going to dig it. Just try not to lose your marbles.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. You're like, yeah, I'll try my best not to throw my panties at this Duran Duran cover band.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, exactly. Exactly. Like I'll try not to burst into tears when these guys who work at Guitar Center start singing Hungry Like the Wolf.

No problem, buddy. So about an hour in, we're still setting up and the party planner walks up to us and says, all right guys, how's it looking? Coldplay should be here any minute.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Coldplay, amazing.

Jordan Harbinger: And I'm like, did she just say Coldplay? Yeah.

As in the guys behind the iconic ballad of Fix You? Sure enough.

That Coldplay? A few minutes later, I look up and Chris Martin and the rest of Coldplay wander in and start setting up their stuff with their team. And in my memory, they entered wearing John Varvatos jackets and they're just walking in slow motion.

But of course, in reality, they were wearing John Varvatos jackets and walking at a normal speed. So I'm like, holy shit. I mean, I'm not a huge Coldplay fan, but obviously everybody knows their music, especially at this point.

Some of it's good, especially back then. And I'm like, wow, I can't believe this is happening. This is awesome.

And so I kind of watch them do their sound check. And for a few minutes, it's like they're not one of the biggest bands in the world. They're just doing a small gig, tuning their instruments, whatever, warming up on their own, which is really neat.

And a little later, the show began. And for the next hour or so, I stood off to the side eating this amazing gourmet chef-crafted food by this epic caterer that was probably like 100 grand, while Coldplay did a private concert for, I don't know, a hundred something people in someone's backyard. And the mics were so low, because again, it's in someone's yard.

And it's not a neighborhood neighborhood, but you don't want to piss off your neighbors. The mics were so low, I could actually hear Chris Martin singing, like his natural voice, not just his voice through the speakers, because I was off to the side. And it was absolutely insane.

They were great. But it was really surreal to watch a Coldplay concert from like 10 feet away. And all of this happened because I started chatting with a dude on the subway and offered to help him carry his stuff up the stairs.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Incredible.

I love this story.

Jordan Harbinger: It's funny, right? It's really a highlight from my New York years. And I got a lot of mileage out of that when I was talking about it, because it was such a perfect illustration of some of these principles that we teach on the show, I think.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And even funnier the second time somehow. So I think the story mostly speaks for itself. But when you think about that whole experience, besides talking to a stranger and helping, being nice, what are the takeaways for you?

Because that's what I think is so interesting, like besides the importance of being way too Michigan and apologizing constantly for helping people who do not want your help.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, besides saying I'm sorry every time a jaded New Yorker makes you feel bad for being a decent human being. Well, obviously, you never know where anything is going to lead. You never know what anyone's going to bring into your life.

So it's just a good policy to treat people well, wherever you go, plant as many seeds as possible, because you literally never know.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So true. It reminds me of that story you told me a while back about what was it, working on like a dating show pilot or something like that. And the contestant, there was some contestant who was being an asshole.

And he thought you were the PA and he ordered you to grab him a drink or something. And later you were like, surprise, I'm your dating coach and I've got some feedback for you. But once the cameras were rolling, kind of like that.

Jordan Harbinger: 100%, this is the inverse of that. Yeah, I remember that guy. Rocky, he was like, hey there, champ, why don't you give me a Jack Daniels and some Coke?

And I was like, oh, yeah, anything else? And he's like, I don't know, surprise me. And people were looking around like, what's Jordan going to do?

And I was like, no, I'm saving this for when the cameras are rolling and I get to feed this back to you bit by bit.

Gabriel Mizrahi: This is the upside down of that. What I also find funny about the story and also very sweet is that you were the newbie in New York, right? He's the guy who lived there for 50 years, producing concerts for people who have hospital wings named after them, probably.

But you were the one who was trying to be a good host to him, even though you just moved there.

Jordan Harbinger: It's true. I don't even know why I did that. I wasn't even thinking about being a host in New York or whatever.

I was just like, this guy seems lost. He's probably new here. Let me try to help.

The subway is not the most intuitive thing if it's your first day in town. So maybe there's something in there about being a good host wherever you go, even if it's not your city or not your house.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, the other thing I like is after he barked at you the first time, you just kept talking to him.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's funny. I'm not sure what's up with that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: If that were me in your shoes, I think I would have been like, oh, OK, not interested in making friends. I'll leave you to your paper maps, sir. Goodbye.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I don't know why I'm that way. Maybe I have a higher tolerance for people's rudeness or something, or maybe I sensed he wasn't really a mean guy deep down, so I stuck with him, or I wanted to correct the record because he misunderstood me, or I don't know. Who knows?

Maybe there's a part of me back then that just wanted to win him over, so I kept talking. I really have no idea. That's interesting.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The other big takeaway is if you want free labor, just use paper maps on the subway.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, foolproof strategy. 60% of the time, it works every time.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That doesn't make sense. I feel like if you use a paper map on the subway today, people will just assume you're mentally ill or a terrorist.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. Why aren't you using Google Maps? Are you a looney toon?

Are you plotting something? But when I think about this more than anything, I think I was just curious. That's all it was.

Why is this guy using a paper map? Oh, he must be a tourist. Does he need help?

I kind of know this subway line. Let me try to help him. Oh, he lives here.

That's interesting. You must have seen a lot. What are all the cases?

Let me ask him about that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, you were already just doing a podcast in your head. That's all.

Jordan Harbinger: That's right. I was just interested. I was just innocently nosy.

And that's the only reason we got to talking, really, in a city where people don't really talk to one another on the subway unless something crazy is happening on the train. Anyway, a lot of this is also just dumb luck. I mean, how do you explain these things?

I could have tried to give directions to a mom from Miami who works for a probiotic yogurt MLM, and then I'd be telling you no story. But I'd be very regular. Perfect T-shirt, by the way.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Or you would have an even better story. I don't know. Who knows?

Yeah, who knows? The day I got swindled by Marnie the Activia rep. It's way better than watching Chris Martin sing Yellow from five feet away.

I think we can all agree on that.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I will never forget him singing Clocks while I stuffed my face with Wagyu sliders and some sort of olive stuffed with something caviar stuffed olives or whatever the heck it was. But that's the thing about it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That sounds disgusting.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, but the thing about luck is you can't control it, but you can increase your surface area for luck. And that, to me, is what these habits really are about. Increasing your surface area for cool and helpful things to happen.

I love it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Great story.

Jordan Harbinger: Go back and check out Lindsay Owens, Patric Gagne, and Justin Folk. If you haven't heard those episodes yet, show notes and transcripts on the website, advertisers, deals, ways to support the show, all at JordanHarbinger.com/deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram.

You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe is on Insta at Gabriel Mizrahi. This show is created in association with PodcastOne.

My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tadas Sidlauskas, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. And yeah, I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer.

Consult a qualified professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. Ditto Patty Eberwine and Joanna Tate. Remember, we rise by lifting others.

Share the show with those you love. And if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn.

And we'll see you next time. Ever notice your back aches or your head pounds when life gets overwhelming? Here's a preview with Nicole Sachs on how stress can keep showing up as pain even after you think you've moved on.

Nicole Sachs: The pain is in your head. You're making it up. You're hysterical.

You're oversensitive. These are things that have blocked people from healing for decades. It's truly a societal paradigm that I seek to shift.

We are not built for long-term fight or flight. We are built for bursts of being able to save our own lives. Pain meds do not help for chronic pain because chronic pain is a consistent firing of pain signals based on a nervous system that is dysregulated.

And so you might get some relief. If you would take an opioid, you're just going to basically be high for a little while. And so you probably will care less about what's going on.

Two things. First is I'm not saying the pain is in your head. You are not hysterical.

You're not making it up. One million percent, this is neuroscience. Second is I don't want you to try to use emotional work or mind-body work for a tumor, for a blood disorder, for anything that needs medical attention.

It is simply neuroscience. If you believe that a stressful day can give you a headache and if you believe that being super anxious can make you throw up, you must believe that doing journal speak and getting to the things that have been causing you to be in a heightened state of fight or flight will stop your chronic symptoms of inflammation, muscle constriction, spasm, and neuropathy from stop firing. You have to.

It is the same exact thing. Your nervous system will protect you without your permission and without your opinion. That nervous system is not going to stop.

Jordan Harbinger: To hear why that pain can linger and what might help you interrupt it, check out episode 1337 of The Jordan Harbinger Show with Nicole Sachs.