826: A Shoplifter’s Craving for Felonious Savings | Feedback Friday

826: A Shoplifter’s Craving for Felonious Savings | Feedback Friday

[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the rhymer so nice, he rhymes the sign-off names twice, Gabriel Mizrahi.

[00:00:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: Nice.

[00:00:14] Jordan Harbinger: On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people, and we turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. We want to help you see the Matrix when it comes to how these amazing people think and behave in our mission on this show is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker so you can get a much deeper understanding of how the world works and make sense of what's really happening even inside your own mind.

[00:00:39] If you're new to the show on Fridays, we give advice to you. We answer listener questions. The rest of the week, we have long-form interviews and conversations with a variety of incredible people, from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, and performers. This week, we had Ozan Varol, friend of mine, professor, lawyer, and rocket scientist. So pretty sharp dude teaching us better ways to think and awaken our genius, so to speak. Make sure you've had a look and a listen to everything that we created for you here.

[00:01:07] Gabe, I remembered a funny story this week that I wanted to tell you. I don't know if there's a point to this, but—

[00:01:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: Let's do it. I'm here for it. What happened?

[00:01:14] Jordan Harbinger: When I was 19 or so, I was getting my wisdom teeth out and they were like, "Do you want laughing gas?" And I was like, obviously, because when else am I going to get a chance to use that? Little did I know my 20s would be full of it.

[00:01:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: Sure.

[00:01:25] Jordan Harbinger: I just thought at the time, this is my only opportunity.

[00:01:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, why not?

[00:01:27] Jordan Harbinger: The oral surgeon was this really like jack dude, looked like a fitness model, really good looking dude. And I'm thinking like, this is an oral surgeon who's really good looking, works with his attractive dental assistant or surgical assistant. I mean, he's probably making, you know, 400 grand a year or whatever, taking out wisdom teeth. I'm like, this guy's winning at life. So they give me the gas and once it kicks in, I just remember being like, "Can you guys turn the gas down?" And they're like, "Oh, sorry, are you feeling loopy? And I'm like, "Yeah, I just can't control anything that I'm saying." And they're like, "Oh, that's funny. We'll turn it down a little." Because I was making jokes and talking and they're like, okay. And they're laughing at what I'm saying. But they're also working in my mouth on—

[00:02:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:02:07] Jordan Harbinger: Like sawing teeth in half, so yeah—

[00:02:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:02:09] Jordan Harbinger: "Maybe tone down the jokes pal and just shut up and let us saw your teeth open." So they turn it down a little and I feel a little better, but actually maybe I don't, because I look at the dental assistant and I go, "You know, I shouldn't say you're really really pretty." And she's laughing and I'm like, "Oh, you need to turn the gas down more. All right. I probably shouldn't have said that." But she's still laughing. I'm bantering with her and we're all having fun and they're actually—

[00:02:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: It sounds like a good time, to be honest.

[00:02:36] Jordan Harbinger: It was a good time. And they were saying things like, "Okay, this is funny." And I don't move a lot when I talk because I know how to act at the dentist. I was just being kind of an idiot.

[00:02:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: Honestly, it sounds like you guys just kind of partied and the wisdom tooth removal was just kind of a bonus.

[00:02:49] Jordan Harbinger: It was just kind of like happening during the party and they were getting paid by, yeah. So as the surgery goes on, she and the surgeon are talking about his dating life and it's so fascinating because again, I'm a kid, I'm listening to grown-ass adults who are having problems dating, and the nurse—

[00:03:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:03:03] Jordan Harbinger: —or the assistant, whatever her position was. She goes, "So did you make any progress with so-and-so?" And I'm sort of, it was like this woman he was seeing, or his fiance or something and he's like, "No, she's still pissed off. I'm pretty sure this is it. I mean, she moved out. I'm pretty sure it's over." And she's like, "Oh, I'm, I'm so sorry to hear that." And I'm literally getting sliced open and having my teeth drilled and there's loud noises and you know, it smells like that—

[00:03:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. It smells like that weird smell. What is that smell?

[00:03:29] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Burning teeth.

[00:03:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:03:31] Jordan Harbinger: And there's a saw going and my face is vibrating and I'm like, "What did you do, man? You must have really f*cked up. You are a good-looking guy, man. You got a good job. She left you. What did you do?" And he's like, "Maybe you should relax and stop talking." And the assistant, she goes, "Well, he's not wrong." And he's like, "Yeah, you're not wrong, but talking is not helping us where we're going with your surgery." And she's like, "I don't know. He's not moving that much. He's just saying and I agree with him." And I'm totally going back and forth with them. And I remember, of course, later on, sobering up and laughing about it for days, which by the way hurt a lot because you're not supposed to be cackling when you have cotton stuffed in your face. And then, when they called to check in on me because they want to make sure that the Valium works or whatever, and that I'm not having like dry socket bleeding, they're like, "How are you?" I'm like, "I'm fine. A little pain. No big." And they go, "Just so you know, you are one funny guy. I don't know if you remember." And I said, "Oh yeah, but most patients are like that, right?" And they're like, "No, not at all. Actually, most patients are either really obnoxious or they're completely quiet. You struck a pretty good balance," and I thought, to this day, I remember that. Because I thought that's a great compliment.

[00:04:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:04:43] Jordan Harbinger: You're really fun. When you're just a little bit high. You're not annoying on the legal stuff for surgery.

[00:04:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:04:50] Jordan Harbinger: But also that I just like shredded this dude for his dating life. Like imagine you're a successful oral surgeon with your own practice and you're just being roasted by this 19-year-old kid whose teeth you're removing and all of your staff around you was like, "Ah-huh."

[00:05:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yep.

[00:05:08] Jordan Harbinger: "Yeah. He said it. He said it."

[00:05:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's a real reversal of the power dynamic.

[00:05:13] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:05:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: That should have been happening because the fate of your mouth hangs in this man's hands and you're just like—

[00:05:18] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:05:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: —totally taking him down a peg. I love that.

[00:05:20] Jordan Harbinger: Like, "Bro, you need to get it together," as he's holding a saw in my mouth—

[00:05:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: In your mouth. In that moment, he knew he was going to be a dating coach.

[00:05:30] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Like keeping it real goes wrong. All right, as always, I've got some fun ones. We've got some doozies. I really want to dive in. Gabe, what's the first — you got to turn this laughing guest down. Gabe, what's the first thing out of the mailbox?

[00:05:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's how turned down, yeah, as short as it gets.

[00:05:47] Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a college student and I think I'm addicted to shoplifting groceries. I've been living on stolen groceries, mostly food for a year now, and I cannot not do that. I get very nervous and feel like I'm a bad person every time I go to steal, but I feel satisfied after I can successfully shoplift the groceries. I've already been caught once, although the worker was kind enough to let me go without calling the cops. I know if I continue down this path, I'll probably be arrested one day, but I feel so uneasy about paying for groceries myself that I always end up convincing myself that I'll be fine. Something that might explain my tendency to shoplift groceries is that I've been a hoarder and my family has never been rich, so I've always been looking for ways to save money. I feel so ashamed of myself, like I'm such a bad person that I don't want to admit to anyone in real life that I have this addiction. How can I stop? Signed, Wondering if I'm Blundering by Suffering Through This Plundering.

[00:06:47] Jordan Harbinger: Well, there it is. Really earning the nickname today, Gabe. I got to say nothing like free garbanzo beans in a can.

[00:06:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: In a can.

[00:06:56] Jordan Harbinger: This is quite a fascinating problem, complicated and fascinating. I can hear how much distress this shoplifting addiction is causing you. I do understand how your childhood played a probably outsized role in all this, and I want to thank you for opening up to us. I know that that's not easy to do, and I'm proud of you for taking a chance and reaching out.

[00:07:14] We wanted to run your question by an actual expert. So we reached out to Dr. Rubin Khoddam, a clinical psychologist, specializing in addiction and trauma, and Dr. Khoddam's first response was that it sounds like you have a lot of great insights into what's going on here. You know it's a problem. You see it as a form of addiction and you see where it may be stemming from, and that is excellent. So, Dr. Khoddam's take is that there are two processes that might be helpful to consider here. The first is a top-down process of trying to tackle the problem from a behavioral perspective, helping you find practical ways of stopping. That could include working with a therapist, doing some type of exposure or a behavioral commitment around stopping, which can be very effective.

[00:07:56] For example, you could practice going to the grocery store one day a week to get, I dunno, milk and cereal or whatever, and just, you know, actually paying for those two things before leaving. This is kind of like an alcoholic who tries to cut down from drinking daily to three days a week, right? It can be super helpful to start small and set realistic stepping stones for yourself as you work up to stopping the shoplifting altogether. Now, Dr. Khoddam's insight about these goals is that it's important to get really specific about what you're going to buy, what might get in the way, which skills you might need to develop to maximize your chance of success, of getting out of the store without grabbing a bunch of stuff on your way out and bolting, or whatever you're doing.

[00:08:37] The second process you could explore is more of a bottom-up process, exploring the root of this behavior and any potentially co-occurring mental health. You said you grew up with a family that hoarded, that you tended to go without. Isn't that ironic, Gabe? By the way, hoarders also going without, because they're hoarding stuff.

[00:08:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:54] Jordan Harbinger: But it's not stuff you need. It's like garbage.

[00:08:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. It's newspapers.

[00:08:57] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. You end up not being able to get food. It's just like such a—

[00:09:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's very sad.

[00:09:01] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. What Dr. Khoddam hears is you're probably used to living in a scarcity mindset, and there could potentially be some trauma there impacting your addiction. There might also be some mental stuck points from your childhood, perfectly understandable. Stuck points that have caused you to view life through that scarcity lens. And what that lens often does is it creates certain beliefs and anxieties. They're very compelling, sometimes very catastrophic. Thoughts, like, what if I lose my job? I have to prepare for the worst. If I'm not prepared, I'm going to lose everything. If I pay for this stuff with my own money, something bad's going to. When you said that you feel so uneasy about paying for groceries, I wonder if those thoughts are what comprised that unease, which means that they're worth unpacking.

[00:09:44] Now, we don't know your financial situation, of course, but Dr. Khoddam did want to ask whether that mentality is still serving you today in the same way it might have protected you growing up. As Dr. Khoddam explained to us, all survival mechanisms have a shelf life. What helps us survive in one context can become our Achilles heel in another context, and this is really insightful. So he gave the example of a war veteran, a person who's hyper-vigilant about their surroundings when they're patrolling in freaking Kandahar. That helps them survive the unknown. That helps them protect themselves. It helps them live another day. But back in the civilian world, constantly scanning for sights and sounds at a restaurant or a birthday party that can make it hard to live their day-to-day life.

[00:10:27] To quote Dr. Khoddam here, we have to learn how to contextualize our behavior to fit the life we are currently living, while having empathy for how that behavior developed in the first place. And in your case, I'm sure these roots are tied to a lot of other stuff about your parents and your childhood and those very early experiences, which are powerful. Dr. Khoddam also pointed out that yes, it's easy to think about our shortcomings, but there must have been times where you haven't shoplifted and he'd be curious to know what stopped you from doing it then. You know, what's different about those instances? What skills or beliefs or strategies helped you then, and more broadly, what has helped you make other big changes in your life? Could any of those help you out in this department? Dr. Khoddam feels that the answers to those questions, they might provide you some insight into the shoplifting question.

[00:11:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: Isn't that fascinating, Jordan, if there were a day she walked into Ralphs and she didn't shoplift and she chose a few things and paid for them and walked out and didn't feel all of the terror and the shame of stealing from a grocery store and asking herself what was different about that day. You know, like it would be so interesting to know if, "Oh, that was that week that I was feeling really secure," or, "That was the week I didn't worry about my parents," or, "I made a little more money," or, you know what I mean? Like, it's just so interesting to think about how all of those variables, the thoughts and the money piece of this and how she feels about her life and her childhood and all these things are shaping whether she grabs those garbanzo beans and doesn't want to pay for them. It's just very interesting.

[00:11:55] In terms of whom to talk to about the shoplifting, and I know that's a very delicate thing and it's very hard to talk to people. Dr. Khoddam said that there's no one size fits all model there, but he always recommends a safe, strong, and broad support group. So that can include a therapist, but it ideally also includes other people in your life, friends, family, a partner, if there is one, anyone you trust. I would also check out support groups for kleptomania and shoplifting. There are groups like Shoplifters Anonymous. They probably go by a few different names in different cities. You could Google Kleptomania or Shoplifting Anonymous or Shoplifting Addiction, and you'll easily find a bunch of those in your area or virtually online. These support groups are money, hearing stories from other people who struggle with similar issues. People who, by the way, might even come from similar childhoods or who might be wrestling with similar trauma. I think that would be so helpful for you right now. It would make you feel a lot less alone in this, and it would also give you some great models for what recovery might look like. . Just based on what we hear from our listeners and what we know from our own lives, we really cannot recommend those groups more highly.

[00:13:03] Jordan Harbinger: So those are your options. Tackling those two processes, going deeper into the roots of this thing, working with a skilled clinician, I really do believe there's a way through this. I know it's difficult to talk about this with other people, and I get it, but please don't let that stop you from sharing it with people who can help you, because I do believe that working so hard to hide this from the world that's only reinforcing the addiction and making it harder to resolve. And Dr. Khoddam had the same view as he put it, there is no shame in what you're going through. Whether it's shoplifting for you, drinking for another, sex for somebody else, we all have certain trauma-informed patterns that can drive our behavior, our unconscious mind.

[00:13:42] The great news is your writing to us is a huge first step in the right direction. Hopefully, it's the beginning of a new journey as you begin rescripting your life. We are rooting for you and we're sending you good thoughts.

[00:13:54] You know what you'll gladly pay for, Gabriel?

[00:13:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: The products and services.

[00:13:58] Jordan Harbinger: Yes, the products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

[00:14:04] This episode is sponsored in part by Better Help. A friend of mine is a busy working mother of two. She's been struggling with a little bit of anxiety, a little bit of depression, lack of sleep. This friend felt overwhelmed by her responsibilities at work and at home, and had been neglecting her own wellbeing for far too long. One day she decided to take action and seek help through Better Help an online counseling platform that offered convenient and affordable therapy from the comfort of her own home. No need to hire childcare. No need to worry about transportation. This friend was a bit skeptical about how effective online therapy could be, but after just a few sessions with her counselor, she started to feel a significant difference. Her counselor provided a safe and supportive space for her to share her thoughts and feelings and helped her to develop practical strategies for managing her anxiety and depression. If you're like this friend and struggling with anxiety, depression, or other mental health issues, Better Help can help. They have a team of licensed therapists available 24/7 to provide support and guidance no matter where you are and here she is now.

[00:15:02] Jen Harbinger: If you want to live a more empowered life, therapy can get you there. Visit betterhelp.com/jordan today to get 10 percent off your first month. That's better-H-E-L-P.com/jordan.

[00:15:14] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by SimpliSafe. Jen and I are doing spring cleaning. We are decluttering, we are reorganizing and getting rid of all kinds of stuff. I find that decluttering that space, it provides a little mental clarity. It decreases stress, and is it cathartic as hell to get rid of some of that old stuff. My advice, keep your house clean, then protect it with SimpliSafe home security for even greater peace of mind. We've had SimpliSafe for quite a few years now. I really enjoy having a security system like SimpliSafe. It was very easy to set up. Not having it, I feel like naked somehow. There's no reason not to get SimpliSafe, especially when it comes to the safety and security of your loved ones, your property. Peace of mind is priceless. SimpliSafe is affordable. It's less than a buck a day. Super simple to set up. Like I said, everything paired together. I didn't have to drill a bunch of holes and a ton of stuff. I'd much rather set up SimpliSafe than clean the house any day. We've got sensors around the house, panic buttons hidden in some areas. We like to be prepared. We've caught some kooks trying to get into our backyard. I've caught people in my driveway looking under my car. I don't know what they're going to take the catalytic converter. It's an electric car people, but then again, junkie is not always super smart. We set our SimpliSafe alarm every night before bed, and we sleep easy knowing that SimpliSafe's 24/7 professional monitoring agents have got our back and CNET named SimpliSafe Editor's Choice.

[00:16:30] Jen Harbinger: Customize the perfect system for your home in just a few minutes at simplisafe.com/jordan. Go today and claim a free indoor security camera plus 20 percent off your order with interactive monitoring. That's simplisafe.com/jordan. There's no safe like SimpliSafe.

[00:16:46] Jordan Harbinger: Thank you for listening and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers keeps us going. All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are all at jordanharbinger.com/deals. Also, we've recently improved the AI chatbot that should surface any promo code from any episode of the show. Please consider supporting those who support us.

[00:17:04] Now back to Feedback Friday. All right, what's next?

[00:17:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, guys. Earlier this year after signing a lease for my dream apartment, I was laid off from my job. Landing the next role was more challenging than I'd anticipated, and I was worried that I wouldn't find a job with a comparable salary before savings and unemployment ran out. Then thanks to my network, I secured a 1099 contract position that pays quite a bit of money. I also just got a verbal offer for a full-time VP role for startup for even more money, and now I'm on my final interview for yet another 1099 manager role for a major hotel brand, all through referrals from unemployment to all the jobs. I've been researching, the over-employment movement, which is, you know, holding multiple jobs at once with the goal of maximizing your income, and there are a lot of varying opinions out there. Some say it's unethical, some say as long as you're performing your duties well, get your money. I look at people like Kevin Hart. He has all the jobs, movies, standup, endorsements, appearances, and still finds time to be with family, exercise and have fun. Can I be a regular non-famous Kevin Hart? What say you, Jordan and Gabe? Signed, Juggling These Gifts as I Consider a Double Shift.

[00:18:21] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Well hey, this is pretty remarkable.

[00:18:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: So awesome.

[00:18:24] Jordan Harbinger: Look, I mean, I know how stressful it is to lose your job, struggle to find a new one, stress about your expenses. That is all very intense. But it sounds like you did everything right here. You dug the well before you were thirsty. You tapped into your relationships. You crushed these interviews and bang like more work than you know what to do with. Talk about champagne problems. You should really be proud of yourself for that. This is a testament to your confidence and a testament to your commitment and your hard work.

[00:18:49] So my take on the whole over-employment thing is this — if you can do right by more than one employer if you can live up to most of the expectations of both jobs, deliver on what you promise, shine in these roles, earn your paycheck, I don't see anything wrong with holding down two jobs at the same time. Now, some employment contracts have clauses that say, "You can't moonlight for anyone else. When you're on the clock for us, you're on the clock for us," that sort of thing. So obviously, read your contract or negotiate it differently and make sure you're not inviting too much risk there.

[00:19:22] Although candidly, of course, most companies are never going to find out if you're spending your nights and weekends doing some extra 1099 work, unless you're posting about it publicly or you're using your work laptop to do two jobs and they got some kind of keylogging, whatever ad admin, Snoopy software on there to keep tabs on you. If you're quiet and smart about it, you can probably get away with it. But the legal stuff aside, just philosophically, I see no problem with this. If you can do more than one job well. To me, the litmus test is what do these employers expect from you? What standards are they demanding and can you meet those expectations and those standards? If you can, I don't see any issues.

[00:20:01] There is, however, one big caveat to this, and that's balancing those jobs with all the other parts of your life, making sure you are not compromising yourself in any way. For example, if working 10 hours a day at one job and then spending another four hours every night working another job is going to run you down. It's going to force you to sleep five hours a night. It's going to take time away from exercise in your family and enjoying your life. That would give me pause because sure, you could do that for a while and you could make $300,000, but if you're miserable and your blood pressure goes through the roof and you feel isolated and you're irritable and you're depressed. Is it really worth it? If you end up spending half of that extra money on, I don't know, boozy dinners and two-hour massages and extravagant vacations to cope with all the stress, is that a wise use of your time? Would you keep more of your money and have a better quality of life if you just did one career actually really well?

[00:20:56] I'm not presupposing the answer here. I'm just saying that's a good question to ask. Anyway, what I'm also getting at is that part of taking on a lot more work is learning how to take care of yourself in a new way. So if you take on a couple of jobs, I would also keep an eye on your habits, on your mindsets, how you make room in your own life for yourself #self-care and all that other annoying crap. But by that I mean you got to be very disciplined. If you're wasting an hour a day scrolling TikTok or watching Vanderpump Rules, and who can blame you? I hear that tea on the show with stray fire. Those are habits I'd cut out. That could be the hour that allows you to stay on top of your second job during the day without panic emailing your other bosses at 11:30 at night to catch up on all the action you missed while you are holding down your main job. If you tend to zone out and doddle for 20, 30 minutes between tasks, I would work to get that transition down to 10 minutes max. You do that four, five times a day. That's another hour right there. I know that seems silly, but that time, that man, it really adds up.

[00:21:59] I would also take a moment to think about what's really important to you these days. To hold down two jobs, you almost certainly are going to have to make some sacrifices. Maybe you're working on Sundays instead of going to the movies or the beach. Maybe it's working two or three evenings a week. Not being able to see your friends as much. And those sacrifices, those might be worth it to you. They certainly were to me at various points in my life, man, I sacrificed like half my 20s and half my 30s building a business. I think it's especially true if the alternative to working is just going out and tying one on with a bunch of friends or watching some lame crap on tv. To me, those things are not additive. Whereas if you're going to make another 100K by staying in more, you could take some really enriching trips. You could invest in the next phase of your career. You could afford to invite new people out for a meal to build your network. You could adopt a dog. You could throw your best friend a birthday party. In my book, those are really meaningful things in life. Totally worth the sacrifice, which isn't much of a sacrifice at all by comparison.

[00:22:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's such a good point. Once you get clear on what really matters to you—

[00:23:01] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: —sometimes the things you think you give up to do something else really are not even a sacrifice at all because you're doing the thing that truly you care about. Also, I would just say if the 1099 gigs are short term, then this all becomes a lot simpler because maybe you hold down a second job for four or five, maybe six months. Get your bag, and then you can just go back to having more free time, and then you'll know that things won't always be this intense and maybe that'll make the sacrifice even easier.

[00:23:27] Jordan Harbinger: Good point. That might be the ideal situation. Just a short-term sprint. Make some great money. Then rebalance your life. That's often the beauty of 1099 work. But hey, congrats on getting all these offers. It's really exciting. I love that you're in a position to make some great money and to keep building your cred. Only you can decide what you can handle, but I would definitely consider these jobs and hey, if it doesn't work, it doesn't work, and you can always drop one of the jobs. Maybe the best approach is to treat this as an experiment and just see what happens. Nothing wrong with having some fun with your career, making some more money, finding out what kind of lifestyle you really want. Good luck and I hope you're as overjoyed as you are over-employed.

[00:24:09] By the way, Gabe, Scott Galloway on this show in other places has talked about work-life balance and he said something along the lines of, "If you want work-life balance and financial success in your 40s and 50s, you can't really have work-life balance in your 20s and 30s. And it's an uncomfortable truth because the new sort of gen, whatever, they're all kind of like, but I want to fart around a lot and do digital, this and that nomad and not only work 10 hours a week. And that's cool. You can do that. It does work. The problem is you probably aren't going to build, just statistically, it's already hard even if you do sacrifice a decade or two to build a multimillion-dollar business where you can really have the level of success that most people want, and then also work a lot less in your 40s and 50s, you're going to have a much, much harder time doing that when you're working 10 or 20 hours a week instead of 60 like other people who are trying to do the same thing.

[00:25:03] So keep that in mind, because maybe right now you do need to bust your ass constantly and not have any balance and not see your friends that much and et cetera, et cetera, in order to hit certain goals. I'm not saying that's the case for this gal, but I just want to highlight that I'm not saying like, "Oh, man, make sure that you are living this way with tons of free time, or make sure you're prioritizing all these other things." You may indeed regret sacrificing it or not, but you're probably not going to have work-life balance throughout your whole career and sometimes that's okay. By the way, Scott Galloway episodes 204 and 734. He's been on the show a bunch. I thought more than that, but maybe not.

[00:25:40] You can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Use a descriptive subject line that makes our job a whole lot easier. If there's something you're going through, any big decision you are wrestling with, or if you just need a new perspective on stuff, life, love, work. What to do if your boyfriend is twice your age and you're second guessing the relationship? Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous.

[00:26:06] Okay, next up.

[00:26:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi Jordan and Gabe. After divorcing my ex, I met a guy who is very kind. He cared for me, made me feel important, and took care of me through a recent health issue. Although I know he's a wonderful person, there's always a lingering thought that I am ultimately the caretaker. I worked hard and I'm now close to meeting my financial goals. I'm not well off, but I'm also not broke, but my kind boyfriend is financially clueless. After more than two years of trying to look for a job close by, he moved to a city four hours away by plane. I can work remotely, but I can't move due to my custody schedule. We only see each other every four to six weeks. If we do ever start living together, I will likely have to share my assets. For example, if we get a house together, I'll have to buy it for us, and he'll contribute by working on the house. He is a good handyman and he does a lot of fixing and cleaning. After my divorce, I really struggled financially supporting my ex through child support and alimony because he just couldn't get a decent job. My father was also a financially irresponsible man, and I don't have a financially strong male figure in my life. The thought that I may now have to include another person in my financial plan makes me anxious. I'm barely holding things together largely for my kids. Am I being materialistic or is it time for us to part ways? In a relationship is kindness a currency? Signed, A Perturbed Partner Petrified by These Pecuniary Problems.

[00:27:34] Jordan Harbinger: Ooh, interesting question. And it's a tough one because this really does come down to your values, your needs, what you feel is important in a relationship. And it's also tough because it sounds like your new boyfriend is a solid guy, not great in the financial department maybe, but he's kind, he's caring. He took care of you through a recent health issue. These are obviously important qualities and I'm glad you've chosen a decent person. Congrats. So there's a practical aspect to this, and then there's a more psychological aspect to this.

[00:28:05] On the practical side of things, yeah, it's obviously a concern. It's not necessarily a deal breaker, but it's something to really consider. Because like you said, the thought of including another person in your financial plan, it makes you anxious. You're barely holding it together. You got your kids to worry about. So if supporting a partner who can't or won't pull his own weight is going to compromise you. And by that, I don't just mean make you stress a little, but it's doable. I mean, actually, put you guys in a tough position, maybe even deprive your kids of the resources they need and they deserve, then I do think it's worth pausing and considering whether this is the right move.

[00:28:39] Now, that doesn't necessarily mean you have to break up with this guy. He could still be a part of your life but with different terms. Maybe you guys keep dating for a while with clear expectations. See if he gets his stuff together on the job front. See if the relationship lasts long distance. See if things continue without the financial element in the mix. That'll also help you decide, well, it'll help both of you decide actually, which qualities of his are most important in your relationship. A lot of your concerns are about what might happen in the future if you start living together, if you buy a house together. But right now, he's four to six hours away by plane, which by the way, that is, what is that? That's like across, across the country, across Canada or whatever the United States.

[00:29:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:22] Jordan Harbinger: He's struggling to find a job. You've got this very full life. This might be getting ahead of yourself a little. I don't mean to say like, gosh, that's too far to make it work. But you might want to slow things down a bit, see how things go. Totally fair. I mean, that's like living in Hawaii or something.

[00:29:37] On the more psychological side of things, I think you see that dating men who struggle financially. It's a pattern. Your ex couldn't get a decent job. You supported him after the divorce. Your new boyfriend is financially clueless. He's struggling to find a job, and your father was financially irresponsible, which I'm sure was a very formative model. So this obviously raises the question why and maybe more important for you right now, what does having to care for other people, men especially, bring up for you? How does it make you feel? What role does it put you in ultimately? And does it maybe even feel kind of familiar and comforting in addition to being frustrating? What is possibly being a caretaker accomplished for you? Obviously, only you can answer those questions, but if you want to figure out whether this financial thing means you're just the more successful partner or you're kind of caretaking, those are a few questions that I'd be asking.

[00:30:28] Gabe, I'm so curious to know what it is about this financial caretaking thing, and that feels so compelling to her.

[00:30:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:35] Jordan Harbinger: Obviously, her childhood played a big role in that, but why is it happening again with this new guy? I'm not quite sure.

[00:30:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: So interesting. It is hard to say because these things are, obviously, they're very subtle and nuanced and they're very personal. But there was one thing she mentioned in her letter that might be a clue. I think she said that her boyfriend is very kind. "He cared for me and he made me feel important."

[00:30:57] Jordan Harbinger: Ah, okay. Yeah.

[00:30:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: So it's interesting. There are two ways to read that, right?

[00:31:02] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: One way is that this guy just is really a solid, decent, loving person. He's thoughtful, he's kind, he's making her a priority in his life, which I mean, if that's what's going on, I think it's wonderful. The other way to read it is that our friend here has a very strong need to feel important, and this guy is fulfilling that need which means that, hey, she might be willing to support him financially or to cut him a lot of slack and discount his professional troubles because it feels so gratifying to feel important to somebody. And look, I don't want to speculate too much here because I know we're kind of reading in, we're reading between the lines, right? But that could be another legacy of having the father she did.

[00:31:42] Jordan Harbinger: Right. So are you saying that her boyfriend knows he's doing that or what?

[00:31:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: No, not quiet. It's hard to say. I don't know if he's consciously going, "My girl likes to feel important, so I'm going to make her feel important. So she'll, you know, buy me a house one day." It's possible. But I mean, I guess that's theoretically possible, but we don't know, and I don't necessarily get that sense. Probably what's happening is something much more unconscious, like her unconscious need to feel loved and important and prioritized by somebody might be intersecting with his potentially unconscious need to take care of somebody else and be supported by them too.

[00:32:18] Jordan Harbinger: One that's fascinating and two, I guess, it makes sense, right? Because if the dude's a grifter, he's probably not like, "Okay, now, I'm going to move six hours away by plane."

[00:32:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: Correct. That's right.

[00:32:25] Jordan Harbinger: It's like most of these grifter predator financial guys, they move in and they leach off you every single day.

[00:32:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes.

[00:32:30] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. So in a way, they might both be caretakers just in different ways.

[00:32:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:32:35] Jordan Harbinger: She, with the money, the responsibility, he with the attention, the kindness. It's like a Lego, it's like Legos that fit together, puzzle pieces.

[00:32:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. That's a great metaphor. Like she said, "Is kindness a currency?" Interesting question.

[00:32:47] Jordan Harbinger: It's an interesting word to use, although I know what she's getting at, but you know, Gabe, part of me wants to say, "Eh, is that so bad? Is it really so bad in a relationship if one person provides one kind of value and the other person provides another kind of value as long as they're happy? I mean, I feel like if the roles were reversed, if this is a guy saying, "Yeah, you know, my wife, she's amazing. She cares for me. I was really sick and da da da, and our house is awesome and everything, but I make more money than her." Everybody be like, "And?"

[00:33:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:33:14] Jordan Harbinger: But since it's a woman and a guy, it's like, why is everything dysfunctional? I make more money than him.

[00:33:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:20] Jordan Harbinger: And he's not good with money. I guess, not making money and not being good with money are two different things, but again if the roles were reversed, I think people would have a totally different view of maybe this couple in this situation.

[00:33:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's a very fair question. So my take is it's not bad if they're both doing it with a lot of awareness about how those roles and how those dynamics operate in their relationship. And they're communicating well about all of it. And right now she's not totally happy because she finds herself taking care of yet another guy and maybe wondering, "Hey, why is that the case? Why does this keep happening to me?" And that's understandably stressful. It's creating some fear. It's, I think, maybe creating a little bit of resentment on her part, and it's clearly echoing her past and tapping into needs that she might not fully appreciate. So my advice is dig into that. Figure out what role your boyfriend is really playing for you, what role you are really playing for him, and what needs you guys might be meeting in each other, and what needs you guys are somehow interestingly revealing in the process of dating and making all of these arrangements.

[00:34:25] I personally don't think you're being materialistic for wondering whether you should support your boyfriend. Money is obviously a concern. It's a practical reality. It's important, and you have your children to prioritize, and it's not clear if your boyfriend is really taking care of himself the way he should. I mean, these are all perfectly valid concerns. I think what's really happening though is that this money stuff is very charged for you as it is for most people. And there's a part of you that's going, "It's not feeling right, and it feels very familiar. It's not sitting well with me. In one way, it feels very good and in another way, it doesn't feel good, and I don't know what to make of that." And when you have that thought and when you have that feeling, I think it's absolutely worth exploring them and figuring out what is going on underneath. And then, you can decide for yourself what's really important in the relationship.

[00:35:12] Jordan Harbinger: Agreed, Gabe. I think if she explores that alone and with her boyfriend, and maybe even with a therapist, if she can swing it, she'll start to get clear on why she's drawn to people like this and what she really wants out of a relationship. And if she gets to a point where she goes, "You know, I'm okay being the primary breadwinner, as long as my boyfriend is holding up his end of things in XYZ ways, it's more important to me that he's kind and loving. Okay, great." If she's comfortable with that, she sees how it works. They're both on the same page. I don't think it's necessarily a problem, assuming he's not taken advantage of her or she's doing something she doesn't want to do. So yes, I do think kindness is a currency in a relationship. Everything is a currency, if you want to think of it that way.

[00:35:51] But the more interesting question is why does that currency have so much value in your specific personal economy? And what is your boyfriend using it to buy, so to speak? Answer those questions and you'll get to some really important insights. So sending you good thoughts, wishing you and your family and your super long-distance boyfriend all the best.

[00:36:13] You know who won't take kindness as a form of payment, Gabriel? The amazing sponsors that support this show. We'll be right back.

[00:36:22] This episode is sponsored in part by Athletic Greens. Jen and I take AG1 by Athletic Greens every single morning. We add a scoop of AG1 to a bottle of water, shake it on up. We started taking AG1 because getting good-quality nutrition, it's gotten significantly harder now that we have too little kids. I mean, I'm not surviving on pizza most days. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but when my parents are here and the kids don't want to eat anything, it's speed over nutrition, and we wanted a quick and easy way to make sure we were getting nutrients that we need in a way that's easy enough for our body to absorb. I don't want to crunch on 75 different supplements. I want to just drink the all-in-one nutritional insurance, AG1. It's cheaper and easier than getting all that separate stuff by yourself. And there's no GMOs. There's no nasty chemicals. No artificial stuff in there. My friend who started the company was a real stickler for that stuff. Okay? It's not filled with sweeteners. I had a scoop with water. It's fine by itself, and it's keeping my head above water with my snotty little kids picking up germs in preschool every day.

[00:37:17] Jen Harbinger: To make it easy, Athletic Greens is going to give you a free one-year supply of immune-supporting Vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first purchase. All you have to do is visit athleticgreens.com/jordan. Again, that's athleticgreens.com/jordan to take ownership over your health and pick up the ultimate daily nutritional insurance.

[00:37:36] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by FlyKitt. Have you ever gone on an international trip and just been annihilated by jet lag either during or after the trip? I have. It takes me like two weeks to recover from serious jet lag until I started using FlyKitt, a solution to jet lag. Obviously, I was skeptical. My friend started this company. I thought that he was full of crap, that I'll use the PG-13 rating. I really didn't think it was going to be worthwhile. I refused to pay for it. Other people bought it. Again, it's my friend's thing, I was like, "I'm not paying you for this." We went to Bhutan and it arrived really neat in a small organized packet. Everything is in there, and I was kind of like, all right, whatever, vitamins in a bag. But then, I followed the schedule. I followed the protocol with the FlyKitt app. You enter some info in the app, like when you arrive and what time you normally wake up, and the schedule will tell you when to eat, what to take, and when, which supplements, when to get sleep, when not when to drink coffee. I followed the schedule to Bhutan and back, and I did not that jet lag that I normally get. I'm not kidding. It's not just like, okay, you're wired on caffeine. I really didn't get jet lag. So I've been using FlyKitt on every international trip with a big time zone difference. It's not just placebo. It's worked every single time. Again, I'm friends with the founder and we now laugh about how upset I was in the beginning because I mean, I was skeptical. I was like, this isn't science. I can take vitamin C. But he explained that FlyKitt is based on research with Navy SEALs special forces. Flying causes inflammation, surprise, surprise, that contributes to brain fog, low energy, gut issues a whole lot more. FlyKitt leverages a cutting-edge, wait for it, AI technology to precisely time proprietary supplementation, eating, sleep. Perfectly tuned to your physiology, perfectly tuned to your travel schedule. Solves the inflammation and circadian rhythm challenges. So all the tools you need are included in the FlyKitt pack and the FlyKitt app gives you step-by-step instructions with reminders you can arrive feeling great. And again, I can't recommend this enough. Any trip with a time difference is like five-plus hours. Definitely do this. Go to FlyKitt with two T's dot com. So that's F-L-Y-K-I-T-T.com to get a FlyKitt for 15 percent off with code JORDAN, flykitt.com, promo code JORDAN. Try it on your next trip and hit me up. I would love to know what you think. I swear by this thing.

[00:39:45] If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and you find our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. All of the links, all the discount codes, all the deals and ways to support the show are at jordanharbinger.com/deals. You can also search for any sponsor using the AI chatbot on the website as well. Thank you so much for supporting those who support the show. It does keep us going and it makes it possible for us to continue creating these episodes week after week.

[00:40:13] Now, back to Feedback Friday.

[00:40:17] Okay, next up.

[00:40:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a 26-year-old woman, and nine months ago I started a job in an industry that I'm working toward getting out of. For the first three months, my small team didn't have a direct manager, but then they hired one, which I thought would be great and give us some much-needed guidance and contact. But this manager is actively detrimental to my workday. Every problem he gets involved with becomes more difficult than it needs to be. On more than one occasion, he's deflected my questions by telling me to ask people in other departments who obviously wouldn't know the answer. If I press him for an answer, he'll do just about any kind of verbal trick to avoid having to make a decision himself. All the responsibility is shifted to us often by making us guess at answers, at which point he'll then agree to, quote-unquote, "Whatever the team thinks." He also adds steps to solutions that aren't necessary and consistently shows that he doesn't know the basics of what the team does every day. I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt at first. I know adjusting to a new job can be difficult, but six months in I'm beginning to doubt that this will ever change. Even more frustrating, he's now started calling himself my mentor. This was unprompted and frankly unwanted, and as my quote-unquote, "mentor," he likes to use meetings with me to tell me about his career goals, his past work experience, and how difficult his current job as my manager is. I tried really hard to like this guy, but the mentor-mentee relationship that he's trying to force on me is really frustrating. Between the, quote-unquote, "mentoring" and never getting a direct answer when I need help, it all feels kind of patronizing. I'm now considering switching jobs. I wanted to wait on a job change until I could make it an industry change too, but I'm not quite there yet and I won't be for at least another year. Is there anything I can do to make this dynamic more bearable? Do I give this guy feedback on his whole approach and relationship with me, or should I just polish up my resume and start looking? Signed, Tormented by this Tore Mentor.

[00:42:22] Jordan Harbinger: Ugh, this is so infuriating. This guy—

[00:42:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: Ah, the worst.

[00:42:25] Jordan Harbinger: —he's so cringe. First of all, the worst manager ever.

[00:42:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: Worst manager ever. Yeah.

[00:42:31] Jordan Harbinger: Can't lead to save his life. But then, he turns around and he's like, "Hey, little lady. Lucky you, I'm going to be your new mentor," right? I can just see, just bold highlight, underlining, italicizing that word. Now, sit back and enjoy this 45-minute story about the time I closed a $6,000 client at the Hilton Garden Inn Orlando in 2003. Jesus.

[00:42:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, Hilton Garden Inn, by the way, nice callback, excellent cookies right here.

[00:42:57] Jordan Harbinger: That's right. And you know this guy will be eating all the damn cookies at the Hilton Garden Inn, and then telling our friend here why they have the perfect chocolate chip to oatmeal ratio.

[00:43:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. I could just hear this guy giving her a detailed analysis of like every mid-tier corporate hotel chain's cookie recipes.

[00:43:15] Jordan Harbinger: Yes.

[00:43:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: While he tries to like guide her career under the guise of the recipes. Ridiculous.

[00:43:20] Jordan Harbinger: It's very Michael Scott of him, this whole thing.

[00:43:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: Except not charming or kind at all.

[00:43:24] Jordan Harbinger: No. True. As she nods off in her chair from just across from him just dying and being like, "I thought I was going to get out early today, but now I'm being mentored."

[00:43:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: By the way, that is what being mentored is, right? Telling your employees about every hotel cookie you ate since like 9/11.

[00:43:39] Jordan Harbinger: Yes, exactly. I remember it like it was yesterday and I remember where I was. It had walnuts and raisins and cranberries, and that crunch.

[00:43:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: You sound like you're on the laughing gas again. It's wonderful.

[00:43:51] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I know.

[00:43:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: Definitely worth 45 minutes of her time, that story, whatever that is.

[00:43:55] Jordan Harbinger: Anyway, I'm so sorry that you have to deal with this guy. It sounds like, first of all, he's very insecure.

[00:44:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes.

[00:44:01] Jordan Harbinger: He can't read the room, really at all. He's probably super lonely. He's obviously hopeless as a manager and he just, he wants to feel important and valuable. So it really, all this is very Michael Scott. This guy's a complete wanker.

[00:44:15] We wanted to run this by an expert. So we reached out to Alisa Cohn, startup coach, investor, and author of the book from Start-Up to Grown-Up. She's been an expert on the show for a while, friend of mine for a long time, and Alisa confirmed that, yeah, you're in a real pickle over there. By the way, Hilton Garden Inn, great pickles. But what she likes about your situation, and she encourages you to embrace this, is that you have clarity. You have a manager who, for whatever reason, just isn't cutting it. You got some pretty strong evidence that he's probably not going to be open to feedback. This guy sounds like just the last person you want to actually even try to get feedback to. So in Alisa's view, it's good to know that you don't need to waste your breath here. You can take comfort in that fact and use all your anger, your irritation, your frustration, use all of that as fuel to do the one thing that you can do, which is just get yourself out of there. And that's precisely Alisa's advice.

[00:45:12] In fact, she said that if you were her client, she'd work with you to look at your schedule and carve out at least five hours a week to focus on getting out of that role and into something that'll work a lot better for you. You guys would fill that time with things like getting to know as many people inside of your company as you can, so you can possibly change departments. Meeting new people in other companies to possibly find other opportunities there. Identifying some marketable skills that will help bridge you to another role. Taking courses, reading books to learn those skills. Maybe even volunteering in a professional organization to hone some skills that you're not able to practice in your current job, along with meeting even more people.

[00:45:50] And to quote Alisa here, "Remember that the most likely way you'll get your new job is through your network. So build it now." And that's interesting. That sounds so familiar. It's almost as if every expert out there is saying the same thing, which is that you've got to dig the damn well before you are thirsty.

[00:46:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: Wise words. Now about the industry move, we're not sure exactly which industry you're trying to move into, obviously, but Alisa's question there is, are you sure that you're not ready to make that move? Is there maybe an interim move you could make that would get you closer to the industry you would like to be in just as a starting point? Because in her experience, every industry has certain aspects where you could use, you know, transferable skills to move into job opportunities. Like, you know, there are all these skills that are very general in nature, project management, marketing, finance, those are very flexible skills and they're valuable in a lot of different roles. Making that kind of move would allow you to get your foot in the door somewhere else and be in a good position once you've finished whatever training or prep that you're working on now to help you get ready.

[00:46:51] At the same time, Alisa said, you should see if you can find another job in another department at your company just to get away from this dude. If they don't seem to be openings inside of your current company, maybe try to take your experience to a new company. That might be the move. But either way, to quote Alisa here, "The person who cares the most about your happiness and your satisfaction and your career is you. So you have to take control." And I got to say, I really appreciate that Alisa brought that up because I think sometimes these little crises, they have a way of forcing us to confront certain assumptions about our careers, about our lives that feel very fixed.

[00:47:27] And in your case, that might be the idea that it's going to take at least a year for you to make a move. Or it might be the belief that you don't have valuable skills yet, or that you can't begin laying the pipe for this transition starting now. These are all really good assumptions to investigate. Because once you dig into them or you start working on them, or you just look at things in a new way, you might find that they aren't 100 percent true and you can start making moves now.

[00:47:50] Jordan Harbinger: I agree completely. Those ideas you have about how things should go, they can really often hold you back from making a great move a lot sooner. Alisa's last piece of advice while you're working on getting away from your mentor, it's important to remember not to get negative. Even if people around you are commiserating with you, validating you, maybe they're even egging you on to complain about this guy. Alisa's advice is not to take the bait, do not do it. If you build a reputation at work for being positive and solutions-oriented, if you focus your extra energy not on gossiping, but on offering value to your colleagues and getting to know people outside of your circle, you'll create a much better chance at getting yourself out of this situation, which is the most important goal. Also, I just think that's really sound advice.

[00:48:34] Personally, I don't know if I could follow that advice because it's so tempting to not do that. But it's not just practically psychologically complaining about a person or a situation I know firsthand, it can really drag down your mood. It can drag down your thinking. It can keep you stuck. It can sap your enthusiasm and creativity and your positivity, all of which you actually need now more than ever to make this move. I'm not saying you can't do some healthy and legitimate griping sometimes just be very disciplined about your thoughts and your behavior when it comes to this guy. I mean, maybe if you got a, a friend or a roommate or a boyfriend, whatever, maybe vent to them and just stay away from the people at work doing it.

[00:49:10] So there you have it. Take control of your career, build your network, build your reputation, and as Alisa put it to us, one day, when you're a manager yourself, you'll be able to use this experience to be a real mentor to other people. And unlike Mr. "I closed a client at the Orlando Hilton Garden Inn urinal over here," you're not going to inflict your war stories on people, you'll actually help them, and you'll probably find that super rewarding.

[00:49:35] Big thanks to Alisa for her help on this one. We're going to link to Alisa's book and her podcast from Start-Up to Grown-Up in the show notes, along with her 5 Scripts for Delicate Conversations PDF. Highly recommend all of those. I hope this helps.

[00:49:48] You know what? I guess that means we are your mentors now. So go ahead and schedule our next meeting. I had some Snickerdoodles back in '08, and you have to hear about it.

[00:49:58] All right. What's next?

[00:50:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan. I genuinely love your podcast. I've listened to several hundred of them and I consistently take notes on your best interviews. However, I've recently been really bothered by how frequently you consistently tout capitalist talking points. The CCP is authoritarian and dystopian. There are people who pathologically can't take responsibility and so on. I need to send this feedback because it's getting harder and harder to listen to this podcast because it's starting to sound like red scare propaganda. This is problematic to me because there's numerous issues with capitalism, like the disproportionate consolidation of wealth and power, the political corruption that comes from lobbying the disregard of the environment for profit's sake, and the commodification of basic human needs. I could go on, but my point is I'd like to ask you to have a couple of reasonable leftists on so that you can take in new perspectives, offer these perspectives to the world, and potentially make a huge change for the sake of my personal value, which is human thriving. As I grow and learn about more nuanced positions, I'll probably just drop your podcast entirely because I do want to listen to other ones. I know I'm just one person and my view doesn't have that much sway, but it's all I have. Signed, Not Trying to Bitch But Might Have to Ditch This Capitalist Ish.

[00:51:19] Jordan Harbinger: Well, look, thank you for the kind words and for listening to the show. I do appreciate that. And I genuinely love when people from across the political spectrum listen to the show. That's kind of the whole idea. So I find this critique very interesting. I can certainly appreciate where you're coming from. I know you're coming from a good place. I don't know if these arguments quite hold up. They certainly don't support the conclusion that you seem to be coming to. First off, China is indeed an authoritarian state and in many ways dystopian, not sure that one is even up for debate. Capitalism definitely has its issues for sure. Not denying that whatsoever.

[00:51:56] But isn't that just whataboutism? You're basically saying, "Okay, China might be a little sketch, but what about American capitalism?" And it's like, yeah, sure, we can talk about American capitalism's flaws. Absolutely. But what we're talking about is the fact that the CCP, the Chinese Communist Party, is literally committing genocide and surveilling its people and participating in organ harvesting. And even if another country we're also doing that, we're also just focusing on that right now. And that's fair.

[00:52:24] But look, let's grant, the capitalism has some serious issues, which by the way, I agree with a lot of what you said, but you realize that any issues with capitalism, China also has those in spades, right? Those communists are the most capitalistic of all, but since they're largely in denial of that system, the capitalist system, which by the way is the greatest engine for upward mobility in human history, they're just having their economic cake and eating it too. And because they're authoritarian, they're not keeping it in check even a little bit. Many of the same issues plagued China's system as well, except for their way worse. I think when we look at disasters that happened in, say, the Soviet Union or China, the way that the environment is treated in those countries, is it better than it is in the United States, or is it worse? I think we know that it's much, much, much, much worse.

[00:53:11] As for the red scare stuff, China isn't a dystopian state in many ways simply because of communism. It's dystopian because it has a dictator because it is a dictatorship. It's capitalist in everything, but name. And I know it's easy to be like, "Oh, this guy says China's bad. It's because he thinks capitalism is amazing and he hates China and he hates communism." No, I just don't like dictators. Syria probably isn't a great place to live either. They just don't have the resources to control and surveil their population, so they just murder everyone instead. So the red scare claim, eh, it's kind of just BS in my opinion. My objections to China aren't because it's China per se, but because I abhor totalitarianism and authoritarianism in pretty much all its forms. It just so happens that China is one of the most frightening and powerful totalitarian regimes around right now. And again, once again, nothing to do with the Chinese people. Always the government, it's one of the top regimes exerting the most influence around the globe right now. And in many ways a very negative influence.

[00:54:11] As for diving into politics more explicitly on the show, well, it's funny you said, "I would like you to do this because of my values," but I'm going to leave that aside because that request is, the way you phrased it is kind of ridiculous. But I'm going to leave that aside because I know what you mean. I'm definitely not going to be doing this. It's been a hard rule since the start. No leftists. No rightists. I don't even want centrists. If the episode is going to be about politics, people listen to us to get away from that stuff. The last thing I'm going to do is dive into political drama just to supposedly balance the show for people who want to hear something political that they can get literally anywhere else. But of course, some of our guests have obvious political leanings. I won't deny that. But generally, we don't talk about their policy positions. We're talking about what concrete skills or perspectives they can teach our audience, which by the way, I don't always agree with which I don't expect the audience to agree with either.

[00:55:06] For me, this is all about opening up our thinking and encountering different points of view, and I always get a little chuckle out about the people who crap on me for having Senator Barbara Boxer on the show and said nothing about Oliver North or the people that blew up when I had Oliver North on the show but had no problem when I had people on the other side of the aisle like Barbara Boxer on. For me, it's all about those different points of view, or at least appreciating how the, quote-unquote, "enemy" thinks if you're really that partisan. But also, hey, we do tons of episodes on capitalism. You said you love the show. I just interviewed Siddharth Kara on freaking cobalt mining, how 75 percent of the world's supply of cobalt is mined by peasants and children in the Congo in subhuman conditions and how that industry is driving deforestation and pollution and birth defects and human misery of all sorts. I interviewed John Perkins, the so-called economic hitman about how corporations and governments coerced developing countries to auction off their rainforests and their mines at bargain basement prices. The list goes on and on.

[00:56:07] So I'm not sure where the whole Jordan is an unapologetic right-wing capitalist shill thing comes from. I think people miss certain episodes or maybe they just hear what they want to hear because they want to hear more of their extreme political ideology or not extreme political ideology on the show. So when you say that you're going to drop the podcast entirely because of this, well, it's a bummer and it makes me a little sad. It sounds to me like you no longer want to listen to something you've learned a ton from because you disagree with some of what you perceive as my frankly unstated political beliefs.

[00:56:44] So my question for you is, is that really a healthy mindset to have? Is it wise to expect every podcast you encounter to cater to the beliefs that you already have and/or change to do so? What would you tell somebody who said the same thing to you? And by the way, there are tons of podcasts out there that do delve into all the stuff that you stated that you want to hear and that are more explicitly political slash left-leaning. And that is great, seek out the information you want, but I wouldn't try to require a podcast you already love to cover what you want to hear just because you already believe it. If you drop the show, I'll be bummed. But please remember who loses here, what you lose, and why you are losing it. And despite how worked up I might sound right now, I say that with lots of love and appreciation for your letter and with the sincere hope that you'll stay in our show family, even if you don't agree with everything that you hear.

[00:57:36] I don't mean to sound self-important, but I really do feel that in today's world we need to remember that agreeing with every position, it's not a condition for participation or enjoyment or value. In fact, quite the opposite. It's just all ideas. Because here's what I do know, you'll never lose with an open mind.

[00:57:54] Hope you all enjoyed that. I want to thank everyone who wrote in this week and everyone who listened. Thank you so much. Go back and check out Ozan Varol if you want to become a better thinker, really sharp dude.

[00:58:03] If you want to know how I managed to book all these great people and manage my relationships using software systems and tiny habits, these are really, really useful skills, folks. It's our Six-Minute Networking course. That course is free because I'm a great capitalist. It's free over there on the Thinkific platform at jordanharbinger.com/course. I'm teaching you how to dig the well before you get thirsty and build relationships before you need them. The drills take a couple of minutes a day. I really wish I knew this stuff 20 years ago. It's all at jordanharbinger.com/course.

[00:58:32] A link to the show notes for the episode can be found at jordanharbinger.com. Transcripts in the show notes. Advertisers, deals, and discounts, ways to support the show are all at jordanharbinger.com/deals. Go try the AI chatbot at jordanharbinger.com/ai. I'm at @JordanHarbinger on both — the branding is just hitting you in the face. I'm at @JordanHarbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. Or maybe I am a capitalist.

[00:58:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I was just about to say what a capitalist shill you are. Jesus.

[00:58:57] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. You could also connect with me on LinkedIn. You can find — by the way, I'm banned in China, freak capitalist society. You can find Gabe on Instagram, also banned China, at @GabrielMizrahi or on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi.

[00:59:10] This show is created in association with PodcastOne, which is a website you can't get to in China. My amazing team — I'm serious about that. I checked it's blocked. My amazing team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, and of course, comrade/capitalist pig, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions, those are our own. And I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on this show. Ditto, Alisa Cohn.

[00:59:35] Dr. Khoddam's input is general psychological information based on research and clinical experience. It's intended to be general and informational in nature. It does not represent or indicate an established clinical or professional relationship with those inquiring for guidance. You can learn more about Dr. Khoddam and his practice at copepsychology.com.

[00:59:52] Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. And if you found—

[00:59:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: That sounded a little communist. I just got to say, I don't know. I'm a little bit confused now by your ideology here. We rise by lifting others, I mean—

[01:00:04] Jordan Harbinger: Power to the people, Gabriel.

[01:00:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm just very confused about your personal beliefs. They're all over the map here.

[01:00:09] Jordan Harbinger: You know what I should do? I should just conform my beliefs to what you want them to be, and then you will stay as a subscriber to the show.

[01:00:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: Perfect.

[01:00:15] Jordan Harbinger: That's the easiest way for me to go about this.

[01:00:18] Share the show with those you love. And if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who can use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time — unless you unsubscribe.

[01:00:33] Here's what you should check out next on The Jordan Harbinger Show.

[01:00:36] A.J. Jacobs: What I tried to do was thank a thousand people who had even the smallest role in making my cup of coffee possible—

[01:00:44] Jordan Harbinger: A thousand? You go, "Oh, that's not a lot." That's a lot.

[01:00:48] A.J. Jacobs: Oh my god. It was a lot.

[01:00:49] Jordan Harbinger: A hundred people would be a tedious process.

[01:00:51] A.J. Jacobs: No, it was way more than I anticipated.

[01:00:54] Jordan Harbinger: 10 times that many.

[01:00:56] A.J. Jacobs: Everything we do requires hundreds, thousands of interconnected people and that we take for granted. And just making this mental switch, just from a selfish point of view is very good because it really does help you appreciate the hundreds of things that go right every day instead of focusing on the three or four that go wrong.

[01:01:17] There's a great quote. I wish I'd come up with it myself, but it says, "It's easier to act your way into a new way of thinking than to think your way into a new way of acting." So I had to fake it for a long time. You know, I would wake up in a grumpy mood, but I'd be like, I have to spend an hour calling or visiting people and thanking them.

[01:01:39] Jordan Harbinger: And I'm not in the mood to do that right now.

[01:01:41] A.J. Jacobs: No. So it was like acting, it was like method acting. And I would force myself to do it. But I'll tell you, by the end of that hour, your mind, you know, the cognitive dissonance is too much. Your mind will switch over to gratefulness. There's a great quote, "That happiness does not lead to gratitude. Gratitude leads to happiness." Having that mindset really will make you happier.

[01:02:10] Jordan Harbinger: For more with AJ Jacobs and his fascinating journey to thank everyone involved in his cup of morning coffee and an inside look at just how complex the supply chain of our lives really is, check out episode 174 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.