1278: Afraid You Could Lose Her Off-Grid with Abuser | Feedback Friday

1278: Afraid You Could Lose Her Off-Grid with Abuser | Feedback Friday

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Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with feedback. Friday producer, the scrunch pants wedging into this existential crevasse of life conundrum, Gabriel Mizrahi.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Scrunch pants. Those are the yoga pants that make your butt look better. Is that what you're talking about?

Jordan Harbinger: They ride up your crack and they make you look like a gym influencer.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. Or a mother in a Pixar movie for some reason.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. That is one of the funniest memes out there. So how Pixar mothers, for some reason, what's a polite word here? The Pixar moms mad thick.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I actually did not realize that was even a thing until I saw those memes.

I clearly have not been watching Pixar movies

Jordan Harbinger: correctly. You're focused on the wrong thing. I'm pretty sure you're supposed to be paying attention to the beautiful animation and excellent storytelling. But people online like to point out that there'd be some freaks over at Pixar apparently, because all the moms in the movies have absolute dump trucks.

Gabriel Mizrahi: There's a reason they win Oscars. Yeah, and it's not geniuses like Michael Arnt. I could tell you that.

Jordan Harbinger: Former [00:01:00] show guest. No, no. It's not the world class storytelling. It's the mom butts. Anyway, on The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, former cult members, arms dealers, gold smugglers, money laundering experts. This week we had Isabelle Boemeke, author of Rad Future: The Untold Story of Nuclear Electricity and How It Will Save the World.

We debunk myths and misinformation about nuclear energy, talk about the many benefits of nuclear power from powering cities to desalinating water with the smallest environmental footprint of any energy source. Go nuclear. And we talk about how our culture might be fumbling the bag a little bit on the cleanest, most powerful energy source in human history.

I also sat down with Coltan Scrivner on morbid curiosity, why we humans are attracted to gross, gory, and dangerous things. Super interesting [00:02:00] psychology there. We also had a Skeptical Sunday last Sunday on incels, speaking of strange psychology. On Fridays though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious sound bites, and try to contain the Chernobyl grade clusters in our inbox every week.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Uh, if you think about a Feedback Friday as really the clean nuclear energy of the advice world.

Jordan Harbinger: Call us Edison, the way we're keeping the lights on around here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Before we dive in, a few days ago, Jordan and I had a meeting and uh, he was running a few minutes late. I was too for

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Reasons.

Jordan Harbinger: Sure, uh-huh. Because you couldn't find parking at your mom's house.

Gabriel Mizrahi: There were no guest spots open in my mom's garage. Okay? So I had to wait for her to leave so I could take her spot because. I'm staying with her while I'm in L.A.

Jordan Harbinger: Shout out to Robyn. And we love Robyn, the woman who introduced me to Alfred Hitchcock movies.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That was a special night. I like that night.

Jordan Harbinger: Whenever I see your mom, I think about the movie Rebecca.

Amazing movie. Yeah. Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Great memory. You on the couch just riveted. I will never forget that.

Jordan Harbinger: People probably don't know that your mom is like a really like knows a crazy amount about film and film history, especially.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Huge film buff. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: I'd [00:03:00] probably never seen an Alfred Hitchcock movie really? Unless I was a little kid, like just on TV passively.

So I'm watching this. And I'm basically getting real time directors cut ish type of commentary from your mom. And I was like, wow, this movie's way better when someone's like, the way they filmed this was this and what this metaphor is. It was really cool.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, it was cool.

Jordan Harbinger: It was amazing.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's way more fun when you're sitting with somebody who's genuinely nerding out on a movie.

Jordan Harbinger: Right.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's cool. Anyway.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I was running late to our meeting because. Yeah. 'cause I'm homeless and I asked Jordan what his holdup was and he goes, sorry, I got out late from dance class.

Jordan Harbinger: It's true. I am not denying it. It's not my daughter's dance class class.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Not your daughter's your own dance class. My co-host is in dance class.

Jordan Harbinger: I thought you would be proud of me.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I am proud of you. But after all of the vicious roasts about my dance workshops, I find out you're secretly taking salsa classes with Jen. What is this?

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. So the salsa class. So I originally wanted to take tango 'cause I was like, I can do this. I saw a Tango demo and I was like, this looks way easier than other kinds of dancing. It's, look, it's very different from hippie flailing and [00:04:00] forced intimacy class. The stuff you're interpretive dance or whatever you signed up for.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It was not interpretive dance, but, okay. Fair enough. But still, I love that you did not tell me this. You just were gonna wait for me to find out or you just, you didn't, you didn't want me to know.

Jordan Harbinger: I was kind of hoping to keep it a secret forever.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So was this your idea or was this Jen's idea?

Jordan Harbinger: It was my idea. So I was in Patagonia and I was like, oh. Someone was like, oh yeah, I got my wife this for Christmas. And I was like, oh my God, I have to buy my wife a Christmas present. Mm-hmm. At some point, not that I've totally forgotten, but I was like on vacation, I wasn't thinking about it and I was just at a loss.

'cause when Jen needs something, she buys it. And I don't know what she's looking at on her phone at 1:00 AM on Instagram or anything like that. So I was like, Hey, I wonder if we should do some tango, because again, I was in Argentina and I'd seen Tango down there. I was like, we should do something together.

She'll love it. So that that's uh, yeah, it was like, let's do something together.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, I love that. And now unfortunately I cannot make fun of it, so congratulations. Yeah. So are you enjoying it? Is it fun?

So yeah, the teacher is really good. The teacher makes or breaks any kind of class that you do. Sure, of course.

[00:05:00] Especially for a physical skill. Right? Because last time I took a dance class. It was kind of like, why can't you do this? Your wedding's coming up. Oh my God, it's not that hard. What's your problem? Which is like, you know, every sport. Not a fun vibe. Yeah, not a fun vibe. He wasn't a bad teacher, but he was rightfully frustrated with me.

And this was like before I got in shape and,

but actually

Jordan Harbinger: everything,

Gabriel Mizrahi: actually, my memory of your wedding is that you nailed the dance.

Jordan Harbinger: I did nail the dance, yes. After a ton of hard

Gabriel Mizrahi: work, because I've been to weddings where the bride and groom do the dance classes. Yeah. And then they butcher it when it comes time to do it.

But you guys were flawless.

Jordan Harbinger: Jen and I don't crack under pressure, so there's

Gabriel Mizrahi: that. No, you do not. Okay. But this guy's more positive.

Jordan Harbinger: He's more positive and, and also I was like, he, he's like, oh, you're enjoying this? And I'm like, yeah, I'm kinda like screwing around. And I used to screw around on the other dance class and the teacher was like, come on man, you have limited time.

And this teacher's like, no, I love that little like. Funny thing you just did, like let's work that in or whatever. And I'm like, oh, that's cool.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Sounds like a cool teacher. I like this.

Jordan Harbinger: It's fun. Yeah. And just salsa's like playful and silly. Whereas ballroom stuff is like, no, your left foot goes three inches to the left.

Right. And if you don't [00:06:00] do it right, she's gonna trip over you and everyone hates you now

Gabriel Mizrahi: much more regimented. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. So salsa's like, Hey, you're two drinks in and you like meet some girl at a bar. And it's like I'm spinning her around and all this stuff. It's cool. It's, it's, it's just more fun. And the stakes are zero.

Right. Because it's like, if I don't learn this in a year, nothing happens. That

Gabriel Mizrahi: is

Jordan Harbinger: so nice. As opposed to being embarrassed in front of all my family and friends and my new wife at a, at my wedding.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I did not fully even think about the pressure of that. Like having to do that at your wedding in front of everybody.

That changes the whole experience. Now you're just doing this 'cause it's fun.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. So it's

Gabriel Mizrahi: playful.

Jordan Harbinger: After our wedding dance, Jen wanted to keep dancing and we dropped a bunch of cash on lessons and I was like, I hate this. I'm not going anymore. And so we like. Basically ditched it. And then five or seven years later, however I think it's been seven plus years, we go back to the dance studio and they're like, oh, hi, I, we remember you.

Uh, what's up? And we're like, well, do we have a credit with you guys? And the new owner's like, no, because I inherited this business with like a [00:07:00] hella debt or whatever after the pandemic. And he is like, but I will give you some free lessons if you like, promise you're not just gonna quit. And I was like, well, if we quit, I'll pay you for your time.

That's

Gabriel Mizrahi: nice.

Jordan Harbinger: So he gave me a bunch of free lessons and I'm like, this is awesome. So now we're just staying there.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. I love this. Well, I'm a big fan. I just, you know, found it curious that you didn't come right out and tell me,

Jordan Harbinger: well, I'm a closet dancer.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You're a closet freak. I got

Jordan Harbinger: you. That's closet freak.

Like a Pixar illustrator.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Seven days a week

Jordan Harbinger: closet freak. So two days a week now. But you never know. We could ramp it up. Alright, Gabe, what's the first thing out of the mailbag?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Happy Friday, Jordan and Gabe. A few years ago during a Christmas party that my sister and her husband attended, I was babysitting my niece.

My nephew hadn't come along yet. My sister comes home way earlier than expected. She tells me that her husband got drunk and grabbed her by the back of her hair and dragged her around the hotel room. She locked herself in the bathroom and slept on the floor. Her body blocking the door. I reported it, but to my knowledge, nothing [00:08:00] happened.

This wasn't the first time my brother-in-law was abusive. I had no idea until recently, but he's been verbally abusing my sister for a very long time.

Jordan Harbinger: Ooh, that's so sad.

Gabriel Mizrahi: After the incident in the hotel, there was also a night he got drunk and was verbally abusive to both my sister and me. I was shocked.

I've lost all respect for him. I'm polite, but never friendly. I come around to see my sister and the kids. When my brother-in-law was younger, he fell and hit his face. It caused a traumatic brain injury that he took medication for. He suffered from a lot of seizures. I've read a lot about frontal lobe trauma and the increased likelihood of violence and impaired impulse control.

That makes me nervous. Dude, Jordan, that is one of my greatest fears in life. Getting a TBI or like a brain tumor or something, and then having just a radical change in personality overnight. So scary.

Jordan Harbinger: I know it's scary to think about a normal person becoming a monster because part of their brain was damaged, and of course we only hear extreme examples like this one or [00:09:00] that guy who went and shot a bunch of people and was like, there's something in my brain.

And they did an autopsy and he had a tumor. Right. That's stuff scary. I

Gabriel Mizrahi: mean, we don't know what kind of person this guy was before. Yeah. Maybe he was not a good dude before he hit his head, as probably was the case, I'm guessing. But still, this suggests that at least part of his violence can be attributed to this injury.

Jordan Harbinger: It certainly complicates the picture, but then I wonder like, okay, if you're suddenly so different, you go to the doctor, you take your meds, you go to therapy. You learn to cope with your anger. There must be ways of working with a different brain that don't involve dragging your wife around by the hair.

Come on.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Sure.

Jordan Harbinger: Also, lack of impulse control. I'd probably just overeat and play Call of Duty six days a week. My impulse wouldn't be to berate my spouse and physically hurt my family. I, I already, I already abuse my wife and kids as much as I want, which is zero.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. The only place you drag your wife is salsa

Jordan Harbinger: and she loves it.

JHS Trailer: All right.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And she loves it. Then late last year, my sister's husband announced that he was gonna buy a property in the Northwest Territories for $25,000, and wants to take my sister and my niece and nephew [00:10:00] out there. This decision was not discussed with his wife. It's about 2,500 kilometers away from us and 5,000 kilometers away from any real civilization.

I saw the land. There's a broken down shack and just nothing.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, but so for people who don't know where the Northwest Territories is, because they're not Canadian, uh, it's in Canada, but it's way up there. You know how you look at a map of Canada and you see all those cities at the bottom near the us?

This is above all of that. Some of this is as north as Greenland and more north than Alaska. People forget, especially Americans, Canada is absolutely enormous, massive, and most of it is totally empty or just has trees on it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So when he randomly decided to buy this land without warning or reason or seemingly any thought, my alarm bells went off.

No one knows why he wants to do this, and my stomach is turning, thinking of him taking my family up there, I'm now afraid that he's gonna take my sister and their kids to the middle of nowhere and murder them. I decided to [00:11:00] message my sister and tell her how I felt about this whole situation. I live two hours away by car, so most of my conversations with her are by text.

Unfortunately, either because he controls my sister's phone and reads these messages, or because she told him herself, he now knows I think he's gonna murder them.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, great.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Initially she was angry, maybe a bit taken aback. She went on the defense saying, let's not make it something. It's not. Through my sister, her husband said he wants an apology.

Apparently he keeps mentioning it in an offhand, somewhat passive aggressive way.

Jordan Harbinger: Mm.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I love that. He wants an apology. Yeah. After abusing his wife. This is

Jordan Harbinger: insane. Yeah. Like maybe we're not even close to even you prick, and you should just suck this one up. But seriously, his sister-in-law suggests that he might murder his wife and instead of going, huh, why would she think I would do something like that?

He's all, I demand an apology. I don't know if this guy's a killer, but he's definitely a piece of crap.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Christmas dinner, to say the least, was awkward af I arrived later at night after the kids went to bed. My sister, her husband and I [00:12:00] exchanged pleasantries, but I felt the hum of anxiety between us on Christmas day.

He took the kids to his dad's place and left my sister and me alone. I felt like she wanted to communicate. So did I, but nothing came of it. Sadly, neither of us have the skills to aptly talk this through. It's scary. My whole family backs my brother-in-law up. Which hurts me and I assume deep down hurts my sister too.

My family's the type to sweep things under the Rugiet and pretend things are all fine. As a rule, we don't talk face to face about anything serious. We would all rather watch someone slowly die than confront the fact that we could save them. We are slowly peel the bandaid off people so they're avoiding conflict to keep everything from exploding.

Jordan Harbinger: Sadly, very common, but man, this is how bad things happen. Come on.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Complicating matters though, is that without her husband, my sister is in a really perilous place, she wouldn't be able to run from him with her two kids and have the money to raise them alone. She also doesn't have a place to land if she tried.[00:13:00]

I don't own a house. I live in a one bedroom apartment with my partner. My mother's house is out of the question for reasons. My father also lives in a one bedroom apartment and drinks like an angry fish.

Jordan Harbinger: Man, that's tough. Well, all of this kind helps explain how she ended up with this guy. Sadly, this is why a lot of domestic violence victims stay with abusive partners just 'cause the, the logistics, the practicals are so hard.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I've asked my mother what she really thinks about the situation, why he bought the land, knowing what she knows about him and his past. She said, I don't know, property was cheap, I guess.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh yeah. Let's not do any thinking about this. Come on, mom.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. The broken down murder shack in. Northern Manitoba must be a great investment property.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, she, Zillow says the saw basement is gonna appreciate the next 20 years. This is ridiculous.

Gabriel Mizrahi: She goes on, it's totally infuriating. If I were a mother whose daughter were abused regularly, it would be my soul mission to bring him to justice.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, they wouldn't be able to find him. Yeah, but I'm sorry to [00:14:00] say there's something wrong with your mom if she knows about this abuse and is totally fine.

Just fine with her daughter moving with her abuser. 5,000 kilometers away from civilization with your grandkids.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dude, that is one entire United States away from the nearest Wendy's. If my calculations are correct,

Jordan Harbinger: it's far. The nearest neighbors are gonna live in igloos.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm dying to know what those reasons were that her sister can't move in with her mom.

I mean, her, her daughter might be in serious danger and she. What are the reasons, why can't you move in with

Jordan Harbinger: this? Look, I I reasons is that just means there's a whole other Feedback Friday letter in there that she didn't have time to take. Yes. It's gotta be something pretty serious. If their own mother can't take her endangered daughter and grandchildren into the house, what reasons could those be?

Gabriel Mizrahi: I agree, but I do wonder if they need to revisit those assumptions because anything must be better than living with this guy. And sister needs a place to stay badly.

Jordan Harbinger: I mean, the only thing I can think of is it's like mom's got a drug problem or like she lives with a man who's a kid touching. Right. I mean, who knows?

You know,

Gabriel Mizrahi: still, [00:15:00] and those are horrible possibilities, but are they worse than living with this guy who wants to isolate her and hurt her? I don't know.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Well, I mean, neither option is good. I'm afraid the whole family system is failing this woman. But to be fair. I know it's complicated. She's also failing herself to some degree by not letting her sister in, by not seeing this situation clearly,

Gabriel Mizrahi: right?

Or not trying to take steps to improve her situation so that she had the power to leave, of course, but I know it's really hard, so she wraps up. I feel very alone in my panic and anxiety. I feel like I've been ostracized for my own family. I'm angry and deeply sad, but I'm also not sure if I'm overreacting.

All I know is that I love my family fiercely, and I had to say something. Am I overreacting? Was it wrong to warn my sister? Maybe I should have thought about it more. How can I keep my family safe when I can't physically prevent them from going up there? And how do I keep myself from exploding with anxiety signs still in shock, and trying to overcome these blocks?

[00:16:00] Before my sister becomes a Netflix doc,

Jordan Harbinger: dark, dark sign off, Gabe.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, I'm sorry.

Jordan Harbinger: When I hear about like, oh, they dragged her around by the hair. I've been extremely mad at Jen before. You know, the whole impulse control thing. It doesn't flash through my head to do something horrible. And then just like I decide not to do it because I have a moment of calm where like this thing in my brain, it doesn't even go through my head at all.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, you're not insane and you're not a monster. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Right.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's hard to wrap your head around the psychology of somebody who would do that. Exactly. Or the trauma or whatever that would cause them to react that way.

Jordan Harbinger: It's just, I'm so not on that same plane at all. And again, I've been like so angry and I've said horrible things.

Mm-hmm. Right. And you have to like undo it. But I've never done anything even remotely close to that. Right. It's just, ugh. Yeah. This is a sad story, man, on so many levels. The abuse your sister is experiencing, the pain and stress this must be causing you. This is a lot to deal with. My heart really goes out to you.

If this were my sibling, I am pretty sure I'd also be freaking out and doing everything [00:17:00] possible to help wake her up and get out of this relationship,

Gabriel Mizrahi: man. But when a victim does not want help, it is so hard to know what to do.

Jordan Harbinger: That's why I feel for our friend here, there is a limit to how much she can intervene.

I mean, what is she supposed to do, right? Kidnap her sister and the kids barricade her in the mom's basement. If her sister's literally saying, I'm moving with him, I don't want your help. I don't know what she's supposed to do.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Right?

Jordan Harbinger: We'll get into that in a moment. Are you overreacting? That is a hard question to answer on one hand, maybe.

I mean them moving to the woods 2,500 kilometers away. Scary, bizarre, risky, absolutely. But that, that doesn't mean this guy's definitely gonna murder her. You might be imagining the worst case scenario, which I, you know, can't blame you for doing. On the other hand, terrible things happen to people all the time.

Your brother-in-law has a track record of violence. He has a track record of poor impulse control. These are the guys who are capable of doing stuff like this. And if the worst ever did come to pass, I'm sorry to go there, we have to consider it. Anyone looking at this history would go, okay, well all the [00:18:00] signs were there.

Years of physical and emotional abuse, isolation check, dependency check, creepy cabin in the woods. Of course this happened. Why didn't anybody do anything? Where's the family? So from that standpoint, no, you're not overreacting.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Also, even if your brother-in-law isn't capable of murder, it probably pays more to overreact than to underreact.

If it means protecting your sister from more danger and nobody else in the family is paying attention,

Jordan Harbinger: right. He might not be moving them out there to kill them. But it's pretty obvious that moving to the middle of nowhere with an abusive spouse and two young kids and no connections and zero resources, terrible idea is a terrible idea.

Yeah. What are the, also, what are the kids supposed to do up there? There's no school, no other kids within a hundred miles, no internet. I mean, are they moving to a tiny town that has that, if it's gonna be boring as hell?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Sounds like the cabin in Finland. I stayed in, but so much worse.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. Right.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I guess they're gonna have to use starlink.

They're gonna go out of their minds. I think like in two weeks they're gonna realize that this was a very poor decision.

Jordan Harbinger: Anyway, the frustrating thing is you can't know if you're overreacting, but I think the better question is, [00:19:00] what can I do to protect my sister as much as possible? So, no, of course. It's not wrong to warn your sister.

I think you kind of had. I mean, knowing that her husband is on top of her all the time, maybe texting, that wasn't the ideal move. Maybe, you know, you should have had the in-person conversation or phone call so it could stay private. But I understand with the distance, texting is the easiest slash the only way to really be in touch.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Also, if she did tell her husband what you said, that it doesn't matter how you went about it, she would've done it anyway.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, good point. If she might be telling him everything her sister says. That makes this so much harder.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But that must also speak to how scared and indoctrinated this woman is.

Jordan Harbinger: It's a massive obstacle.

So like I said, you're in a really tough place here and let's just acknowledge that must be awful.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Absolutely awful. I really, I'm just, as we talk about this more and more, realizing how she said, it's very isolating and on top of the sadness and the anger and the fear to be alone in those feelings makes it all so much worse.

Yeah. No way around that.

Jordan Harbinger: I don't think you're out of moves yet, though. I don't know exactly what you said to your sister in those texts. I don't know how much you've tried to talk to [00:20:00] her about how she's feeling these days, how she's making this decision, whether she understands, you know, why you're so concerned.

But given how Christmas went down, given the way your family navigates conflict in general, I do get the sense that the best version of this conversation hasn't happened yet. The best version of this conversation is talking to your sister, ideally privately, ideally live in person, FaceTime, phone, whatever, and telling her how much you love her, how much you care about her, how much you want her to be happy and safe.

Inviting her to talk about what's going on with her husband, what their relationship is like these days, how she feels about him, what the abuse has been like for her, what the move to the sticks is all about. Why that appeals to her and listening to her, validating her, make her feel genuinely understood and respected.

We talk about this all the time. You're gonna have to turn off that part of your brain that wants to convince her to not move and to leave her husband. Anyone healthy and rational looking at this situation would know that that's the answer. But you're talking to a person who's been victimized. [00:21:00] A person whose trauma and life experience has led her into this dangerous marriage, has made it hard to see abuse as abuse to protect herself appropriately.

It's, it's very similar to talking to somebody in a cult. If you come right out and say, yo, you're in a cult. You're insane. If you stay, you gotta get help. They're gonna shut down. They're gonna defend the cult. You need to build trust. You need to build rapport. You need to invest in the foundation that will allow your sister to go, okay, I can admit that something is very wrong here.

I can acknowledge this is a terrible idea. I do need help.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, all victims of abuse are kind of in a cult of one, aren't they?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. And her abuser is the cult leader. And that cult has its own logic. It's its own power dynamics, its own gravitational pull or whatever. It's really hard to counteract that.

So that's a crucial phase, and that might take several conversations. That phase might last for weeks. I don't know how much time you have before they plan to move, but I would be patient and invest in this foundation because I think that's probably what's gonna allow you to get through to her.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. And in a world where she does end up moving up there, that [00:22:00] foundation will still be extremely important because if you ever want to help her get out, you're gonna need that foundation in that timeline as well.

The challenge is because this family doesn't do conflict well. I think this conversation is gonna be hard for both of them. It sounds like she'll be building that trust, that rapport from scratch in a way. Because if you haven't had much successful conflict over the years, then you don't really have that true intimacy.

Right? Like the love for her sister is there. It's clear, it's obvious from her letter. But this emotional foundation, you're talking about Jordan and this history of closeness and trust. The ability to have a tough conversation. The language actually that allows two people to navigate these differences, all of that results from successful conflict over the years, and they don't have a lot of successful conflict.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, there's that clumsiness when you get into something difficult with somebody you haven't really had conflict with before,

Gabriel Mizrahi: you're both having to have the disagreement and learning how to have the disagreement. So it's a lot to do at once.

Jordan Harbinger: Right, and I'm sure that's why our friend here feels so helpless because there's not much of a [00:23:00] way in with her sister, even though she cares for her deeply.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And then there's the time crunch because she needs to get through to her before the move. So the stakes are so high.

Jordan Harbinger: But look, if you can build that foundation even a little bit, then at some point you need to make your plea. You need to try to help your sister see the situation more objectively. I would do that by asking her a lot of questions and really encouraging her to answer them.

For example, instead of saying, you're in danger, you're crazy if you move up there, maybe you say, help me understand how you're making this decision. What makes a marriage safe in your view? Like specifically, how are you deciding that your husband is a good partner? Good one. Or instead of going, you need to move into a shelter with the kids tonight.

You might say, what do you think the kids make of the way he treats you? What do you think they're learning? Is this the right move for them? How are you thinking about them in all this?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, those are all great questions. I do think the kids are a good tool here because her sister might be afraid of her husband.

She might not care much about her own safety, but any decent parent should care about their children.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:24:00] Totally. So if you can help her see that she's endangering them by moving out there with an abusive father. That might be the thing that finally makes her realize that she needs to rethink all this.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Also, maybe the goal shouldn't be to convince her not to move ever or to leave him immediately. Maybe the goal is just to get her to slow down and put off this move for a little while so that she's making the best decision for herself and that would give you more time to work on her.

Jordan Harbinger: Good point. That's a way easier lift, although it sounds like they're on his timeline, but she can still say, can we take a few more months to think about it?

Or she can come up with some excuse for why she needs more time to move.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes.

Jordan Harbinger: In order to buy them all more time, basically.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. I don't wanna take the kids outta the school year in the middle, or I need a couple months to shop for furniture or whatever. Whatever it is. And then if your sister miraculously decides to let you in and separate from her husband, big if I know, but I'm crossing my fingers.

Then you can get tactical about how to leave and how to leave safely, which is to some degree, a bit of a science,

Jordan Harbinger: and we're gonna link to a bunch of resources about that in the show notes for you. Highly recommend checking 'em [00:25:00] out. Past Feedback Friday episodes about this, interviews with experts. We've done DV hotlines, nonprofits.

There's a whole world of information and support for people in you and your sister's shoes. I would avail yourself of all of that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You know, Jordan, we talk about acceptance a lot. We talk about surrendering to the terrible things that happen in life. But in a case like this, if her sister is determined to move up there with a psycho acceptance does not mean peace.

You know, acceptance does not mean that everything is suddenly okay. It just means recognizing the fact that there's only so much she can do here, and that her sister is really at the whim of what I imagine are traumas and life experiences and ideas about herself that are making her vulnerable to a very dangerous guy.

Then it's up to our friend here to live with the perfectly appropriate fear, dread, sadness, and grief associated with this whole situation.

Jordan Harbinger: It's horrible. I really hope her sister listens to her.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Of course. I hope that too, but it's just occurring to me that this pain she's really struggling with is [00:26:00] also the price that we pay for being in right relation with other people, including people we really love.

Kind of gotta honor the fact that we are not them and we can't make people do what we want, even when we know what's best for them, even when they're family, you know, everybody's ultimately responsible for themselves and we know that intellectually.

Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But emotionally, that's hard to live with.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, agreed.

Much easier said than done,

Gabriel Mizrahi: but I do believe that those painful feelings might also be an indication that we are on the right side of that boundary. You know, her last question was, how do I keep myself from exploding with anxiety? And I think what we're saying is, the best thing you can do is first of all, channel that anxiety into trying to get through to your sister.

That might not diminish the intensity of the panic, but it will give it shape, it will give it purpose. That is obviously the most productive use of that anxiety. But in a world where you can't get through to your sister and she moves up there, then you might explode with anxiety sometimes, and that sucks.

But assuming you do everything in your power to save your sister. It might also be an important signal that you are [00:27:00] also respecting her autonomy, her separateness, and still living your own life too.

Jordan Harbinger: No, you're right. My heart just breaks for this woman who has to watch her sister choose on some level to be isolated, to walk into more abuse and possibly worse, it's, it's mind boggling.

It also occurs to me, Gabe, our friend here, clearly runs a little anxious, although who wouldn't be anxious, I guess, if their sibling were being abused. But I wonder if there's also some connection between her anxiety and their family's conflict avoidance stuff.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Interesting. What are you thinking? Like what's the connection?

Jordan Harbinger: I just wonder if the whole sweep things under the Rugiet approach, their general avoidance. I wonder if that makes our friend here feel like she really doesn't have a way in with her sister, just like we said. Mm-hmm. Which makes her feel helpless and ineffective. So maybe her mind is going, well, if I can't do anything about all this, maybe I'll just worry about it.

Oh yeah. Maybe ruminating on the worst possible scenario, we'll accomplish what my words and actions can't. Even though I think we all know that it doesn't work that way.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, you're onto something there for sure. And that might be another big benefit to good conflict resolution, you know, not just the trust and the intimacy you build, but.

Hopefully [00:28:00] reducing this kind of ineffectual anxiety, which is almost like a false substitute for the real intervention.

Jordan Harbinger: Precisely. I've never really looked at anxiety that way, but I know when I feel like I can't do anything about a problem, I'll just obsess about it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Sure.

Jordan Harbinger: As if obsessing moves the needle, when really it just makes me miserable and it makes it harder to see the ways in which I can have some influence.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

Jordan Harbinger: Very sorry about your sister, my friend, and the whole family ethos that makes this situation so hard to resolve. It's concerning. It's heartbreaking. No way around it. But I do think that there's hope still and I, you have to do everything you can really to help your sister get outta this marriage safely while she can to protect her and her kids, of course, but also to know that you did everything you could so that if she does move, and I sincerely hope nothing worse happens, I really do.

If she does stay with this creep. You don't toss and turn for years wishing you had done more when you could have sending you and your sister a big hug and wishing you all the best. You know it's a great way to decorate your broken down murder shack in the sticks. Getting your hands on the fine products and services that [00:29:00] support this show, we'll be right back.

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Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, [00:32:00] my wife and I are the parents of four kids all adopted out of foster care.

All have varying degrees of special needs. In addition to various learning delays related to drug exposure, all of them have a diagnosis of A DHD and two have reactive attachment disorder and oppositional defiance disorder. One has severe allergies to the point that even smelling the allergen on someone else's breath can send them into anaphylactic shock.

Poor kid has it rough.

Jordan Harbinger: My God, those poor kids, y'all are doing god's work. Seriously.

Gabriel Mizrahi: My parents live in the same city and they've played a key role in our lives. They've supported us by babysitting often and have also been very financially generous when we've needed help. We used to see them a lot. The problem is they blame most of our children's, admittedly bad or socially inappropriate behavior and poor grades on our parenting.

I'll be the first to admit that we have flaws. We work hard, but sometimes the pressure of dealing with their issues and the exhaustion of weekly therapy and other medical appointments have led to [00:33:00] us being impatient and snippy with our kids at times. My parents are often with us in the middle of stressful situations, which doesn't help.

They don't see the many sweet, fun times we share as a family when they're not around.

Jordan Harbinger: That's really tough so far, I gotta say, I appreciate how balanced you're being about all this. It does suck that your parents only see you guys in one context or when things get tough and then they're like, yeah, you guys are to blame for all this.

So that does seem unfair.

Gabriel Mizrahi: They also have a long history of helping the kids do things behind our backs. Nothing major, serious or dangerous, just not appreciated. They also favor one kid over the others, which causes a lot of pain. For example, two of our kids had birthdays recently and they gave one $40 and the other a hundred dollars.

Jordan Harbinger: Ooh. Yeah. That can send a tricky message

Gabriel Mizrahi: mm-hmm. To a child who's already been through a lot and is

right.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Probably conditioned of you. Stuff like that as an indication of whether they're lovable or how lovable they are. That's sad.

Jordan Harbinger: Sure. I mean, I definitely get why that doesn't sit well with our friend here,

Gabriel Mizrahi: so he goes on.

Then recently my brother told [00:34:00] me off for being a bad parent. He's only spent about four to six hours with us total over the last couple of years, which makes me suspect that my parents are sharing their opinions with other family members. I completely lost my cool and bit his head off. I didn't say anything.

I didn't mean. I am a people pleaser and hate confrontation.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. Interesting theme today. But it doesn't sound that way. Like I destroyed him and I said it. I meant every word of it. Oh, by the way, I hate confrontation. Well, okay, you're getting your exposure therapy apparently.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think what he means is that was a big deal for him to do that.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, no, I get it. I'm just kidding. It's just like, I hate confrontation and I kicked that guy's ass so hard and he deserved it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I've been working through this in therapy for a long time. I've come a long way in my professional life, but I still struggle with close family and friends.

Jordan Harbinger: Yep. As do so many of us, man.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think finding a new way of being with family is probably one of the hardest things in life.

Jordan Harbinger: There's so much history. The grooves are all so due. So a long time ago I went to one of those like lamo self-help seminars and mm-hmm. They [00:35:00] said one thing that stuck with me that I thought was clever, that I guarantee you they stole from someone, but it was, uh, why is family so good at pushing your buttons?

Because they put the buttons there in the first place.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Nice.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I've tried to talk to both of my parents about this individually. They listened, but basically said, if you were better parents, your kids wouldn't have these problems.

Jordan Harbinger: What? I mean, the crack babies they adopted, I mean, that's an unfair,

Gabriel Mizrahi: oh man, this feels, again, very unfair.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. If they have some feedback for you guys, fair enough. I mean, my parents like to be like, you're giving them too much. You know, whatever. Mm-hmm. No parents. Perfect. We can all do better and if there are things you guys need to be doing better, I would hope you'd be able to take that criticism in. But based on what you've shared, it just sounds both factually inaccurate and totally un nuanced to say something like that

Gabriel Mizrahi: and quite hurtful considering the sacrifices I imagine they've made for these kids.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I'm really sorry to hear this. I'm actually kind of angry on your behalf. That's really, you know, not cool.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I love my mom and dad and they were good parents to me. All of their kids are happy, healthy, and [00:36:00] financially successful adults. I think this makes them feel like we didn't struggle. What's your problem?

They're retired professors, so they're very educated, but they seem to think that the kids' diagnoses are basically nonsense that could be overcome by love.

Jordan Harbinger: Mm. So they're ignorant about this stuff and maybe even kind of naive,

Gabriel Mizrahi: but that doesn't entirely let them off the hook for being

Jordan Harbinger: no.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Nice and curious about why this is hard.

Jordan Harbinger: No, it doesn't, but it sounds like it's hard for his parents to grasp how hard life can be for people from different circumstances. They might not even really understand this whole adoption thing. It might just probably seems crazy to them.

Gabriel Mizrahi: My working theory at this point in the letter is that watching their grandkids act out and watching their own kids struggle to parent them is probably pretty distressing to them.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Which to be fair, I can understand their household. It sounds like a lot,

Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, it sounds like a chaotic home sometimes, and it's also a massive responsibility that they have taken on here. But instead of going, okay. This is really hard to watch. How can we support our kids in [00:37:00] this noble mission of theirs?

Do we need to give them some understanding, some grace when the kids act out, in addition to giving them feedback, they might be going, well, if you just love them, everything will be fine. But that's almost certainly not the case,

Jordan Harbinger: right? They probably just want this problem to go away,

Gabriel Mizrahi: right?

Jordan Harbinger: So they hit him with this overly simplistic parenting advice, air quotes advice.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Since the conversation with my brother months ago, I've been avoiding spending time with my parents in that time. Our home has been more peaceful and the kids' behavior has improved.

Jordan Harbinger: Interesting. So there's some connection between his parents' involvement in the kids' struggles.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Is their involvement contributing to the poor behavior, or do he and his wife just handle things better without the parents around?

Jordan Harbinger: Hard to say, but this is a meaningful observation and it all, it's also possible that things just feel more manageable without one more source of stress,

Gabriel Mizrahi: right? And it might make them more available to their kids, which helps or something. So he goes on, my wife and I met with a counselor a few months ago.

They told us that we need to sit down and directly discuss this with my [00:38:00] parents and then bring in a third party if that conversation doesn't go well. But instead of listening to that advice, I kept on ignoring and avoiding them until my mom finally asked me what's going on. A couple of days ago, I told her We need to sit down and talk it out.

My wife, my parents and I we're gonna get together in a couple of weeks. How should I approach this? Should I ask if they've been talking about us behind our backs, or just leave it alone? Should I apologize to my brother even though I didn't say anything? I didn't mean how do I address and own my part of this problem while still standing my ground?

Signed a foster parent trying to lean in when the ice feels thin with this tricky kin.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow, fascinating story. Like I said, you guys are saints. Y'all have taken on a very big responsibility here. These kids are massively lucky to have ended up with parents like you, and you have my admiration for that.

I'm sorry that it's created such chaos and stress, although I'm sure you and your wife, you know, probably knew what you were getting into and were willing to take that on. And as far as you could sort of wrap your mind around it at the [00:39:00] time. And I'm sorry that your parents haven't always known how to see things from your point of view or make things easier, even if they don't intend to make things harder.

I get why it's been so hard. So there are a bunch of different threads here. Let's try to pick 'em apart. First things first. Just like in question one, I think the struggle to do conflict well is definitely making all of this harder for you and for your parents, and this conversation you're gonna have with them.

It's a chance to make progress on the parenting thing, but it's also a way to build these conflict muscles, and I know how anxiety provoking that is, but this is an excellent opportunity for you to grow. Ultimately, that's a gift. The only way we get better at this stuff is by doing it and doing it imperfectly and learning.

Second, I would get clear on what you and your wife's goals are for this conversation. If I were in your shoes, I think my goals would be, one, to acknowledge to your parents that these conversations can be challenging, that your instinct when it comes to conflict is to ignore and avoid, which you know doesn't help, but that you wanna work on that and you appreciate the chance to do that with them.

I think [00:40:00] that'll set a nice tone. Two, to help your parents understand what all of this has been like for you guys, raising kids with these intense needs, factoring in your family's advice, making sense of their opinions, balancing parenthood with all your other responsibilities, all that. Three, to have an open conversation about the kids and your parenting philosophy, where it's succeeding, where it needs work.

If you and your wife are open to that, of course you are not obligated whatsoever to listen to their advice in this department, and maybe that's actually a separate conversation. But it might be helpful to invite it again if your parents can have a thoughtful conversation about it. And four, to come to a better understanding of your parents' perspective, to help your parents come to a better understanding of yours and hopefully find a more productive, more accurate, more loving wave, talking about your kids, whether that means revising their opinions or sharing them differently, or not sharing them at all.

So I laid those out as goals, but that can be a loose game plan for this conversation.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think it's terrific, Jordan. Yeah, really nice. That's how I would do it too.

Jordan Harbinger: By the way. [00:41:00] I wouldn't bring the conflict with your brother into this conversation unless it explicitly relates to how your parents come to these opinions.

I think that's between you guys and your brother. And even if it's unpleasant, they're still allowed to talk about you guys, unfortunately. And there's a version of this conversation that you should probably have with your brother too.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I agree with that. And just to dig into this conversation with your parents a little bit more, a nice way to begin might be to say, mom, dad.

You guys have played a really key role in our lives. You've supported us in all of these ways, babysitting, money, gifts, just your presence, and we love you for that. And we are so appreciative. There are also parts of our relationship that are challenging, as you know, and we wanna work on that, namely your opinions about our parenting and the kids, and the way that you share those opinions with us.

And then you can talk about some of the specifics. For example, you might wanna say, I know that you attribute most of the children's bad behavior and poor grades to our parenting. And we recognize that we could always do better. I'll be the first to admit, by the way, we have flaws. We can get impatient, we can get snippy when things get overwhelming.

And they do get overwhelming a lot. But we also [00:42:00] feel that a lot of your opinions, they do seem to gloss over the very real challenges that the kids have, their childhoods, their biology, their chemistry, their trauma. So when you state an opinion like that. Not only can it be very hurtful and kind of demoralizing to us as parents, it's also inaccurate and unfair and ultimately not something we can really do anything with in terms of becoming better parents because it feels more like you expressing your disapproval or insisting on your version of all of this, rather than understanding and supporting us as parents, which is really what we would want from you.

Jordan Harbinger: I really like that Gabe. 'cause he's not saying, you guys are trying to hurt us by saying that stuff. So keep your opinions to yourself. He's saying, here's where we struggle with certain opinions. Here's how they land, whether you intend that or not. Are you open to reconsidering? Are you open to having these conversations differently?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly. And it creates an invitation for his parents to try things in a new way. Maybe they say, wow, we did not realize we were doing that. You were right. Let us go off and reconsider some things. Or maybe they say, well, the kids might have their challenges, but you know, your [00:43:00] parenting is really, you know, just double down on whatever they've been saying.

Or maybe they say, okay, we hear you. We're sorry. We'll try to do better. But we do have some opinions about the kids that we believe in that we feel are important. So can you hear us out? Any of those would be progress though, even if you and your wife disagree, because I think your parents would be responding to you with a lot more information about you and your family, how you hear things.

It's only through these conversations that your parents can come to understand the full picture about your kids and about your parenting. The only way that they can really have an opportunity to appreciate how their comments are affecting you.

Jordan Harbinger: That's true. They probably don't even know that they're having this effect on him.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Look, his parents might be a little over steppy, right? They might be judgmental, they might be whatever you wanna say about them. Naive, privileged, tone, deaf, uncurious. All of that might be true to some degree, and our friend here might not be giving them every opportunity to understand the situation as well as they could.

Jordan Harbinger: Good point. Before he decides how to feel about all this, he should probably give them a real chance to see [00:44:00] things in a new way.

Gabriel Mizrahi: There's really no guarantee that his parents can change or that his parenting will become perfect for that matter. But that doesn't have to be the goal. I think to your point, Jordan, the real goal is.

Are we talking? Are we coming to understand one another better? Are we in a process together,

Jordan Harbinger: a process that will hopefully lead to better outcomes for both of them? Yes. Which

Gabriel Mizrahi: ideally,

Jordan Harbinger: again, really does depend on a certain amount of healthy conflict. But listen, if your parents can't hang in this conflict with you, if they can't meet you with the same curiosity and openness, or they're just not interested in reflecting or reconsidering their approach, maybe the answer is to pull back.

That might mean setting some boundaries. You know, mom, dad, we still want you in our lives, but we're gonna ask you to keep your opinions about our parenting to yourself 'cause they're not helping and we gotta do this our way. That is an option. It might mean still listening to their opinions, but doing something different with them.

Maybe what you do with them is nothing. You just hear them out and let it go. Or maybe you try to look for like the one gem in their opinion, even if it's mostly wrong or unfair, and see if you can do something useful with it. And that's just, you know, how you cope.

Gabriel Mizrahi: There [00:45:00] might also be some work for you guys to do to not allow their opinions to shake you quite as much.

Because to be fair, that is a process that you are a part of and, and I know it, it's really hard with parents, so I totally get that. But maybe the answer is for you and your wife to be more aware of the feelings and interpretations that you guys form about your parenting based on their opinions. That is under your control.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. And actually on that note, I think I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that, look, his parents might be clumsy in the way that they phrase things. Or maybe they're overtly hurtful, we don't know. But is there a kernel of truth to what they're saying? Are they pointing out some difficult but perhaps important things about their parenting?

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm really glad you're bringing this up. Yeah, it's a good point.

Jordan Harbinger: Look, I'm not letting them off the hook for being thoughtful, but it can be hard to take in otherwise helpful feedback when it's coming from a certain source and a certain way.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So true.

Jordan Harbinger: I think I'm mostly on our friend here side. But I also just wanna invite him to consider whether part of the distress he feels is actually because they're hitting a tender spot.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, it is a very fair question, especially because there are a few [00:46:00] things in his letter that speak to how he's interpreting his parents' words when he was talking about how his parents were good parents and all his siblings are happy and healthy and financially successful. He said, I think this makes them feel like we didn't struggle, so what's your problem?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. That's not what they said though, but that's what he heard.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Right? That's the implication that he's reading into it, which might or might not be fair. He also said they seem to think that the kids' diagnoses are basically nonsense. That could be overcome by love. But it sounds like they didn't actually say that, and that might not accurately reflect their true beliefs.

It might, but it also might not. So it might be nice when he sits down with his parents to say, look, sometimes when you guys gimme parenting notes, I wonder if you feel like, well, we didn't struggle, so what's your problem? Is that in fact how you feel? Or to say, the sense I'm getting from your feedback is that the kids' diagnoses are basically nonsense and they just need love to overcome it.

Is that you read on things and just clear that up. You know, maybe they say yes, that is exactly what we believe, and then you can help them see that that's not really the full story. Or maybe they say, no, no, no, that's not what we meant at all. What we're trying [00:47:00] to say, whatever they're trying to say. And then you won't be left to read between the lines or assume things.

That are not true and that are making this conflict harder. I think that would also be a good goal for this chat

Jordan Harbinger: again, yet another reason that having these conversations is so important. As for your brother, my advice there is I totally understand your anger with him. It sucks to hear a family member tell you that you're a bad parent when they only spent five hours with you in the last two years.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Also, that I'm confused by that subplot as well. How is that a helpful thing to say? Like what does the brother get out of telling him that in that way?

Jordan Harbinger: Honestly, Gabe, I hope there's more to that story that would explain why he did that. 'cause it just sounds cruel.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah,

Jordan Harbinger: maybe there's some history there, some sort of larger dynamic, but my advice is try to narrate your emotions and explain them rather than leading with them.

You can say, Hey man, I gotta tell you, bro, I am freaking angry that you said I was a bad parent. I'm sorry I yelled at you on the phone. But I'm angry because I'm hurt and I feel that you haven't spent nearly enough time with us to really weigh in on what kind of parents we are. I'm confused why you would even want me to know your opinion on that.

That's [00:48:00] gonna make the conversation with him hopefully a lot easier. But Gabe, I just gotta say, I know we usually end up identifying with the person writing in, but it really does sound like his family is being quite judgmental and it's not that they're not allowed to have opinions. It's not that our friend here is a perfect parent by his own admission, but I just don't understand why this family thinks that saying these things is helpful, even if they have a point the way they're going about it.

It just makes me wonder if his family has a massive communication problem or like a, you know, attitude problem.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. I mean, you know, he's the narrator, so we really only have his version of events to go on, but at a minimum it's not unreasonable to hope that they would say, here are some things we're noticing.

We know how hard it must be to raise children with these needs. But can we offer a couple suggestions? Is that okay with you? Even that would be a different conversation

Jordan Harbinger: for sure. And no, I would not ask your parents if they've been talking about you guys behind your backs, unless that directly relates to how you guys get along.

Like I said, you need to be thoughtful about which issues you bring into a conflict at the right time. They're allowed to talk about you behind your back with your brother. [00:49:00] Unfortunately, that might not always be kind. That might not always lead to the best conclusions, but it's not something you can police really.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Although he could say feeling that you and brother talk about us and arrive at these conclusions without all the information is kind of hurtful and frustrating for us. I do think that is fair game because he's not saying don't do it. He's saying, here's what that does to me.

Jordan Harbinger: True. Because that's about his experience, not about their behavior.

But I mean it's just for me, it's lower priority.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. I'm with you on that.

Jordan Harbinger: So, man, we went deep in this one. I hope we've given you some ways to address and own your part of this problem while still standing your ground. But I gotta tell you, man, I think you're already doing that beautifully. In fact, you definitely need to lean into conflict more.

You need to give your family more context, set some new standards. But my read on you is that you're owning your piece of this and protecting yourself and making room for other points of view, which you know is what everyone should aspire to do. But not everybody can do that. So I commend you for that and I know that's gonna help you land in the right place here.

Sending you your wife and all the kids [00:50:00] a big hug and wishing you all the best. You can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise, use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a lot easier. If you're being harassed by a peer in your professional circle. Your neighbors are eavesdropping on your therapy sessions through the wall, or your business partners kicked you outta the company you started for a crime you committed decades ago after rehabilitating in every conceivable way.

Whatever's got you staying up at night lately. Hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. Alright, what's next?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, two years ago, I reconnected with an old friend. Let's call her Lily. Things were great. She would join the friend group on adventures and we'd all get along just fine.

She's funny, and we could make jokes about our lives. One day, for example, we were walking downtown together during a rainstorm trying to meet up with some friends. Every car that drove by splashed us. We got completely soaked, and I can't remember the last time I laughed that hard. It's one of my favorite memories of Lily.

Then a year ago, the [00:51:00] insecurities started to come out. Out of nowhere. I got a text from Lily asking if I'm better friends with her or our other friend, Mary.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. Is Lily eight years old? Is this letter from a third grader Gabriel?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Nope. Full adult.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. I'm already on our friend here today. Don't even need to hear the rest.

That's a crazy thing to text another adult, go to therapy, Lily, work it out on the couch,

Gabriel Mizrahi: not realizing what the next year would bring. I responded politely that I don't really rank my friends like that, but I have unique friendships with both of them.

Jordan Harbinger: Solid reply, seemingly unnecessary, but solid reply.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Then Lily confronted Mary and was upset that Mary was stealing so many friendships away from Lily. Mary is one of my best friends. She isn't dramatic, and the accusation that she's stealing friends isn't anywhere close to reality. When Lily asked me about it again, she mentioned that she feels like she can't spend time with me because Mary is always around, which is also not the case.

I acknowledge that she felt that way and that those feelings are valid. But when I asked her why she felt that way, she [00:52:00] was unable to provide an explanation.

Jordan Harbinger: Nice response. That's much nicer than I would've come up with. That's almost too validating. But yeah, it's so telling that you were like, okay, I hear you, that you feel that way.

Can you tell me why? And she's like, nah, it's just that way. And end of discussion.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Over the course of the next eight to nine months, we had this conversation repeatedly to the point of exhaustion. Even as this was happening, both Mary and I continued to invite Lily to various social gatherings. Lily still claimed she felt left out and that she couldn't be my friend.

No reason given. Meanwhile, Lily and Mary had their conversations and Mary finally got fed up with the accusations and they're no longer friends.

Jordan Harbinger: Understandable.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Separately, Lily wanted a person named Oliver to tone down his boisterous personality. Oliver said, absolutely not. They're no longer close.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Ridiculous. I'm on Team Oliver here. Team boisterous, bro.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Lily also asked three other guys if they're closer to Mary than to her, and all of these guys are like [00:53:00] WTF. Is she even talking about

Jordan Harbinger: God, this poor woman, this. This is deep insecurity. Yeah. Pure and simple. And now I'm almost back to feeling bad for her again.

'cause if you're doing this, there's something wrong. Like there's some real trauma. You got a personality disorder, something's going on.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, she said she wasn't like that before. And then did something happen? I, in the time when they weren't in touch, maybe, I don't know. She goes on. Lily asked Mary not to talk to certain guys because she was interested in dating them.

She tried to tell a guy named Ross that he was participating in a certain group chat incorrectly, and at least three other people have been confronted by Lily because she wants them to change their behavior

Jordan Harbinger: officially. Back to hating this woman who does that

Gabriel Mizrahi: alydia of the highest order.

Jordan Harbinger: This is a toxic person.

I know that word gets thrown around a lot, but this is for real. I have some empathy for a person like this, but this is so dumb and so weird, and so not your pro. How do you participate in a group chat? Wrong. That's what I wanna know.

Gabriel Mizrahi: She goes on. I think Lily is [00:54:00] deeply, deeply insecure about so many things and wants to control her external world in order to make her internal world feel better.

She wants people to change who they are in order to feel better about herself.

Jordan Harbinger: Bingo. Control projection, lack of self-awareness, poor social skills. This is the dangerous cocktail someone needs to tell her to stop fixating on other people and start focusing on herself.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I started out a year ago, very empathetic toward Lily.

I know what it's like to be excluded, but I've recently become extremely blunt with her providing evidence that she's been invited to many things while she's invited me to none. And telling her that my friendship with Mary is not preventing me from being friends with her. I also stopped inviting Lily to social events because I don't want the drama.

She has problems with multiple people at these events. Lily doubled down and blamed Mary for the fact that I can't be friends with her.

Jordan Harbinger: Bruh, move on.org. Get outta here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's gotten to the point where she's losing friends and she's not being invited to things because she's so confrontational. It's the clearest self-fulfilling prophecy I have ever [00:55:00] seen unfold before.

My eyes

Jordan Harbinger: happens all the time. So much easier to see in other people. Of course,

Gabriel Mizrahi: yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Our fears and our insecurities, our stories, we say we don't want them, but they often end up creating our outcomes. Not in a woo woo way, just a very practical way like this. It is very sad.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I finally gotten frustrated enough that I told her I need to step back from this friendship.

In her final reply to me, she said, she's working on a way for she and Mary and I to be able to hang out. I didn't reply, but I wanted to say, what are you talking about? Yeah. We were all hanging out. We were all friends and your insecurities have blown everything up, but I didn't think that was healthy, so I didn't say it.

I. I knew Lily 20 years ago, and I don't think she was ever like this. At least three of the people she's confronted in the last year have gently suggested therapy. When I did it, she said she can't imagine a therapist would tell her to do anything differently. She's already doing everything right. Wow.

Jordan Harbinger: Clearly. Wow. Oh man, that's the final stress. She's literally putting her fingers in her ears. Like la I'm perfect. This is a [00:56:00] person who can't be helped. You tried next. Imagine thinking you are the one. Look, I have no friends, but it's not because of me, it's because other people can't do the group chat.

Right.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dude, I think your theory about a personality disorder is probably true.

Jordan Harbinger: Gotta be.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I've lost all patience and I'm not even sure I wanna salvage the friendship at this point.

Jordan Harbinger: What is there to salvage? Yeah. Who has the time? It's not your sister.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Nothing left to say.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, shees.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But we go to the same social event every week, so I have to see her, although I don't necessarily have to interact with her.

What do I do here? Signed feeling famished for some advice on how to brandish this new shield against a friend who's been tragically banished.

Jordan Harbinger: Dude, can you imagine being around somebody like this regularly?

Gabriel Mizrahi: You know, it's actually scary because Lily does not exist in the same reality as everybody else, and that can be a very unsettling feeling.

Jordan Harbinger: Again, the line that really freaked me out was, I can't imagine a therapist would tell me to do anything differently. I'm doing everything right, like, holy shit, [00:57:00] dude. Yeah. What?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, I'm sorry. Your friendship with Lily played out this way. But the reality is this is not somebody you could have a real relationship with.

Look, I'm also sorry for Lily. Whatever wiring and life experiences made her become this way is, it's sad. Her insecurity, her projection, they're isolating her, which is exactly what she says she doesn't want. My hope is that one day she wakes up and goes, huh, I got no friends. I got no partners. I got no prospects.

I wonder why that is. Dot dot, hi. It's me. I'm the problem. It's me or whatever, right? What does, that's how I go. Or someone comes along and gives her this feedback in a different way, maybe at a more vulnerable moment, and she's like, oh, okay. I need to hear this.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I suppose it is possible.

Jordan Harbinger: I mean, I'm not holding my breath, and at this point, look, this is not your concern slash problems.

So honestly, I don't think there's anything for you to do right now. You've done it all. You've been kind to Lily, you've been patient with her. You've been compassionate. You tried to understand her. You included her far longer than you had to. You tried to help her see things more clearly. You encourage her to see a [00:58:00] therapist and in a variety of ways, she's like, no, I want more.

Or like, no, thanks. I'm good. So Lily's on her own. Now she has to find her own answers. The only thing you need to do is hold this boundary. I know it's awkward. You're in the same mixer every week. You're gonna have to see her. It sucks, but you can be a decent person. You can smile when she comes around.

You don't have to go outta your way to be mean. But yeah, I would not engage with her. I would keep my distance. I would just focus on yourself and other people. It's really that simple. Gabe, I don't know how old our friend here is, twenties, thirties, older. Hard to say. I'm getting early to mid twenties vibes just based on the fact that, I don't know, once you turn 28, 29, 30, your patience for the lilies of this world plummets way down goes way down, man.

That's right. Life is too short to put up with this kind of insanity.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I think she's learning that pretty quickly.

Jordan Harbinger: Definitely. But look, you can still end a friendship with somebody and wish them well from afar, and I do hope Lily works on all this stuff. She gets better, and if she ever comes to you in a different spirit, you know, wanting to apologize and make things right, you [00:59:00] could consider that cautiously of course.

But until then, bye Felicia. Focus on your healthy friends and good luck guys. I gotta take a quick break to tone down my boisterous personality. We'll be right back.

This episode is sponsored in part by Bombas. One of the goals this year and all year round is to stay comfy, and Bombas is leading that charge in my house. We love Bombas so much. It's all we wear. We even gifted to our family and our friends and our nanny. We're big fans of the Grip socks, so we don't slip around on our floors.

Bombas just launched their new sports socks, which are amazing for whatever you're into. Running golf, hiking. We're planning to do more snowboarding this year, and these things are cushioned, sweat wicking, and packed with techy features that make it feel like your feet are finally on your side around the house at night, I'm living in their Sunday slippers, which keep my feet cozy during those cold winter nights.

And Bombas also has underwear and tees. Buttery, soft, breathable, the kind of base layers that ruin every other brand for you. Plus, for every item you purchase, Bombas donates an essential clothing item to somebody facing housing insecurity. One purchased, one donated over 150 million [01:00:00] so far.

Jen Harbinger: Head over to bombas.com/jordan and use code to Jordan for a 20% off your first purchase.

That's B-O-M-B-A s.com/jordan. Code Jordan at checkout.

Jordan Harbinger: This episode is sponsored in part by Audible. Have you ever thought about how much your imagination can expand just by listening to a story? That's where Audible comes into play. It's your gateway to exploring not just any stories, but those that feel your passion, spark motivation, or provide that expert advice you've been seeking.

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Audible is unrivaled when it comes to variety. They offer an unparalleled selection of audio, books, podcasts, including this one and unique audible originals, all available through a user-friendly app. Whether you're catching up on bestsellers, discovering new releases, or exploring an array of included titles, there's always something new to check out.

Plus, audible seamlessly integrates into your daily routine. Listen, while you're jogging, during your commute, or even as you're doing household tasks. It is the perfect way to [01:01:00] enrich your day-to-day activities, so dive into Audible to enhance your mental landscape while you go about your day. Sign up for a free 30 day audible trial and your first audio book is free. Visit audible.com/jhs.

If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and you find our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support the amazing sponsors who make this show possible. Everything is searchable and clickable on the website at Jordan harbinger.com/deals.

If that doesn't work, you can email meJordan@jordanharbinger.com. We're happy to dig up codes for you. Yeah, it's that important that you support those who support the show. All right. Back to feedback. Friday. And now for the recommendation of the week.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I am addicted to lip filler.

Jordan Harbinger: Someday we're gonna have to replace that soundbite, but today's not that day.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Never, never die.

Jordan Harbinger: My recommendation of the week is a minimalist wallet. Most wallets, including my previous, they're just chunky. They're annoying. I had a huge wallet when I was younger, and actually it's bad for you. Do you know Gabriel? Do you know it's bad for you to keep a wallet in your back pocket?

'cause when you sit on it, your hip bones are all [01:02:00] uneven and stuff.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, never thought about that. But yeah,

Jordan Harbinger: it can cause problems. Hmm. I assume a small wallet, no big deal. 'cause you got a little bit of junk in the trunk, like a Pixar mom. But if you don't have that, then your hip bones aren't a lot. Anyway, that's not the real reason.

I just didn't want it. My whole pocket taken up by a personal filing system George Costanza has. Yeah, it looks bad. It's just weird. So then I got a money clip and that was better. But then you got this metal thing in your pocket and it's still kind of unwieldy. So it would set off metal detectors and all that.

So I bought myself a slim fold, nano soft shell, a blanket in the show notes. It's super minimalist. The wallet itself. Slightly thicker than a couple of credit cards. I think when there's nothing in it, it's like the thickness of a credit card. It's thinner than my phone with cards in it. But inside I've got four cards, cash, including an air card that tracks it and uh, you know, other credit cards and insurance cards, all that stuff.

It's a great purchase. Highly recommend. It's not that expensive. We'll link to it in the show notes and basically you get your pocket back, which is kind of nice. Like if you keep it in the front pocket like I do now, you can actually keep something else in there. [01:03:00]

Gabriel Mizrahi: You know, I have another little solution for you, Jordan.

I don't know if you've ever heard of it. It's called A Man purse.

Jordan Harbinger: A Man Purse.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh God,

Jordan Harbinger: no.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And then you don't have to worry about pockets at all.

Jordan Harbinger: No. You just have to worry about people misgendering you in public

Gabriel Mizrahi: people's judgment. Pick your poison. I dunno.

Jordan Harbinger: Also, in case you don't know, there's a subreddit for our show.

If you wanna jump into discussions with other listeners about specific episodes. Episodes you like, episodes you hate, come check it out. It's in the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. In fact, everyone's in there but me. No, I lurk in there all the time. I just can't post a reply, but Gabriel's in there to speak on our behalf.

Alright, next up.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi Jordan. I just read your wee bit wiser on when not to talk about your goals with other people, when your silence is actually more effective than speaking.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, that one was interesting and a lot of people replied to it. Might as well take this opportunity to say, if you haven't signed up yet, come check out the newsletter.

It's called Wee Bit Wiser. You've heard me talk about it A bunch, two minute read from a past episode or sometimes just from our heads, from us to [01:04:00] you comes out on most Wednesdays. Lot of responses to that. It really is a great companion to the show and Jordan harbinger.com/news is where you can find it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So he goes on Silence is a form of responsibility, I suppose, a heavy demand. I wholeheartedly believe that sharing your dream often kills it, but at some point as your networking, you need to share. How and when do you share what you're up to as you're taking action and making headway? Where's that line between keeping things private and opening up?

At what moment do you share certain things with people while building relationships? Sign wondering when to be heard when sometimes mums the word.

Jordan Harbinger: Good question. So for anyone who didn't catch this newsletter, what we're basically saying is that opening up about your life with people, that's obviously crucial, but there's also something to be said for not opening up too soon or too much.

'cause when you keep something to yourself. That allows certain ideas or goals to take shape. It allows them to just be yours for a little while. It also doesn't give you that false sense of accomplishment that talking about your goals [01:05:00] can do instead of actually, you know, working on them. Staying quiet also forces you to really think before you speak, to make sure that you're actually saying something meaningful.

And as this listener mentioned, we don't always have to say something to be understood. Sometimes staying quiet and the quality of that silence, how you listen, how you process something, how you look at someone sometimes that says more than words ever could and that could be much more powerful. So I don't think there's a hard and fast rule about this.

I think it's more about taking a moment to consider why you're sharing something with somebody. What you stand to gain from doing that, what you risk giving up. If you do that, how the other person will receive the information. Like let's say you're having coffee with somebody, a peer, someone in your industry, and you want to tell them about an idea for a project you're starting.

Maybe something you want to grow into a side business one day, whatever it is. So you take a moment and you ask yourself. Why do I want to talk about this right now? Maybe the answer is, I'm excited about this thing. I need help getting it off the ground. I want this person to know where I'm headed, what lights me up.

Those are good reasons [01:06:00] to share a little bit about it, but you might also realize, well, I don't know exactly what this project is. It's still coming together. I should probably be home right now working on it. And actually, I think I just want this person to take me seriously. Those might be good reasons to go.

Okay, hold off on talking about this. Now, oftentimes it's a mixed bag. There are upsides and downsides to sharing, so sometimes you just have to do a calculation about whether it's worth it, but keeping an eye on your motivations, why you're saying what you're saying to this particular person at this particular moment.

I think that's the most important thing.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I also think it's helpful to think about what the person's response might be and how that might affect you. Like, for example, if you tell that person about that side project that you're excited about and they don't get it. Or they don't think it's a good idea or they get it, but they're not super gracious or supportive.

Is that gonna infect your feelings about the project? Maybe at a time when you don't need other people's voices in your head, you know, that would also be a good reason to hold off.

Jordan Harbinger: Good point. That happens all the time. You find something you're passionate about and one person is like, yeah, huh. I mean, I guess if that's what you think, or they're [01:07:00] actually critical of it, and suddenly you're like, maybe this is dumb.

Maybe I don't have what it takes. And I remember early in the days of this podcast, I would tell people about my idea and they were like, what's a podcast? Nobody listens to that. It seems like a waste of time. It's not as interesting as you think it is. This is really boring, and I just stopped talking about it because I didn't really care to hear any of that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Was it hard for you to hear that? Like did it make it harder for you to be excited about your podcast?

Jordan Harbinger: Not as much because I thought that they were all wrong because I was like, it's a hobby.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You just, you just knew

Jordan Harbinger: that. Yeah, it was kinda like, it's, it's a hobby. I don't really care if you don't like it, like somebody might like it.

Why are you crapping on my hobby? I'm not even asking you for your opinion, you know?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah,

Jordan Harbinger: yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Well that can be very helpful. Like you were able to hold your excitement even when they were kind of undercutting it. Yeah, but for some people that can be really hard, you know? Like if you get a piece of feedback, especially if it's from somebody you're close with, like interesting theme today when we were talking about how our friend was interpreting his parents' feedback about his parenting, like when it comes from a source like that, it can be hard to not let it in so much, you know?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I did [01:08:00] get some good feedback from people that were, were really, they were like, you're talking really fast. Now I talk quickly, but not crazy rapid with no breaths. But yeah, I think if you're looking for people to just reinforce how awesome your idea is to stay motivated, this is like not really a great, uh, way to do that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. I mean that's a good different piece. It's a different type of feedback. Yeah. Because they're just saying, Hey, I'm noticing this thing as opposed to whether it's even worth pursuing.

Jordan Harbinger: Right.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But this is a little bit tricky because there's obviously, to your point, great value in getting feedback from people on your ideas along the way.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. That's the dance, I guess.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So again, what you said about checking in with your motivations is key. Are you keeping things close to the vest because you don't want to hear some difficult but necessary feedback? Or are you keeping things close to the vest to protect your excitement? To give yourself the necessary freedom to play to develop.

If it's the latter, then I think that's a very good reason to stay quiet, especially in the early days of a project.

Jordan Harbinger: That's the other thing, if you're keeping things low key for like 3, 6, 9 months, okay, that can be useful. If you're refusing to breathe a word about an idea you've barely worked on for two [01:09:00] years,

Gabriel Mizrahi: hmm,

Jordan Harbinger: different, that's probably a sign you're overthinking this and maybe protecting something else.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You know, I think we usually know deep down when we're sharing for the right reasons. If you check in with yourself, you know when you're opening up about something because you want feedback, or you want help, or you need insight, or you want to become closer with somebody by sharing something important with them, or when you're opening up to impress them or sound smart, or avoid doing the work back at home.

If it's a mix of those things, which does happen, or you truly don't know, then I would say err on the side of saying less because you can always share more later, but you can't take something back.

Jordan Harbinger: Agreed. Also, if you don't know how someone's gonna respond to a piece of information or how interested or supportive they are, you can just share a little and go from there.

You can be like, yeah, so I have my job and on weekends I'm playing with this interesting idea. I found. If they're like, oh, okay, cool, maybe you don't elaborate, or if they seem eager to poke holes in it, maybe you keep quiet. But if they're like, oh, that's awesome. I have a couple ideas myself. You wanna talk about it, that's a sign you're probably in good company.

It's safe to share. There's no real textbook rule here. [01:10:00] Great point. It's more about being thoughtful and self-aware and considering your audience. It's really an art as opposed to a science. Love your thoughtfulness. Love your mindset. I know that'll make these conversations a lot more valuable and good luck.

Go back and check out Isabelle Boemeke and Coltan Scrivner and our Skeptical Sunday on incels if you haven't done so yet. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network. That circle of people I know, like, and trust. We're teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself for free.

It's our Six Minute Networking course. It's not gross, it's not schmoozy, and you can find it on the Thinkific platform at  sixminutenetworking.com. The drills really take a few minutes a day. I wish I knew this stuff 20 years ago. Dig the well before you get thirsty. Folks. Build relationships before you need them all at sixminutenetworking.com.

Advertisers discounts ways to support the show on the website at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn, Gabe's on Insta at Gabriel Mizrahi. This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tadas Sidlauskas, [01:11:00] and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi.

Our advice and opinions are our own. I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Consult a qualified professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today.

In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learned, and we'll see you next time. Think you need top secret clearance to catch war criminals. In this preview, Eliot Higgins shows how everyday citizens with nothing but wifi and curiosity are uncovering global crimes that governments tried to bury.

JHS Trailer: Bellingcat does something called open source investigations. Thanks to smartphone technology, social media, and the wealth of information we have online stuff like Google Maps, giving you satellite imagery, ship tracking websites, playing tracking websites, all kinds of information that's accessible to you.

Now, I started doing this in 2012 as a hobby. I just tried to figure out how can you prove if a video is filmed somewhere? And I realized that you could [01:12:00] compare landmarks visible in the video with satellite imagery and do a kind of spot the difference fit. Now, that's a technique known as geolocation, but back then it was just me playing adult spot.

The difference on social media platform, I think when we live in an era where the truth is constantly contested, especially on the internet, it's good to have something where you can not only point to the evidence, but the actual process you used to come to your conclusions and open it up for debate because there is a tendency for people just to read stuff that reinforces what they ought believe, and that causes a lot of problems.

If we're gonna have a debate about something, it should be on actual facts, not just the opinions of a new piece. Paper columnist you've just read. What we do is important. It's not just about allowing people to see our working, but giving them the ways to actually do it themselves. And if we let the world just be run by people who want you to shut up, then it's gonna be a very dark based indeed.

For me, it's really about taking open source investigation and guessing as many people as possible to use it. Yeah, I'll just say, give it a [01:13:00] go if you're interested. 'cause that's what I did and I turned out quite well

Jordan Harbinger: to hear how Bellingcat is using open source sleuthing to expose war crimes and rewrite the rules of intelligence.

Check out episode 1192 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.