630: When the Law Puts You in a Catch-22 | Feedback Friday

630: When the Law Puts You in a Catch-22 | Feedback Friday

[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, Gabriel Mizrahi. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. We want to help you see the Matrix when it comes to how amazing people think and behave. And our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. So you can get a much deeper understanding of how the world works and make sense of what's really happening, even inside your own mind.

[00:00:34] If you're new to the show on Fridays, we give advice and answer listener questions. The rest of the week, we have long-form interviews and conversations with a variety of amazing folks from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, and performers. This week, we had Amanda Montell on the language of cults. So if you're into the cult stuff — you know, how I love a good cult. I mean, creepy religious cults, all the way to like SoulCycle. This is a fun episode because we really get into the language of cults and how the language transforms your mind, et cetera, Gabe and I also did a deep dive this week on how to get your foot in the door. So in this one, we talk about the strategies and mindsets for carving out a role for yourself at say, a company or selling your services to a client, securing work as a freelancer, basically getting an in somewhere. Drawing on the many examples we've seen of people doing this both poorly and amazingly well in my own life and my own business, and just other examples outside of that. Great nuts and bolts stuff here for anyone looking to break into an organization or an industry, or even a relationship. So make sure you've had a listen to everything we created for you here this week. 

[00:01:39] By the way, Gabe, my parents are visiting. You know, Jen's like, "Okay, I'm going to cook salmon with the skin on. Should I take the skin off for your parents?" I'm like, "Why don't we ask? I don't know. So my dad goes, "Nah, you know, we'll go to the store and all buy some stuff I like." So I'm thinking he's going to come back with like a rack of ribs. And I've warned Jen, I go, like, "He might come back with like pork ribs. Are you willing to cook that?" She's like, "Yeah, that's fine. No problem." And I'm like, "Okay, cool." He comes back, Gabe, he comes back with — you know, those like bright orange-colored crackers that kids bring in their lunch when they're in like third grade and they have peanut butter on them? 

[00:02:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, totally. 

[00:02:14] Jordan Harbinger: And they're like, bright orange. 

[00:02:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: What are those called? 

[00:02:17] Jordan Harbinger: I can't remember, but—

[00:02:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: Ritz, or is that something else? 

[00:02:20] Jordan Harbinger: Keebler, something, something, right. Not the box is orange. The cracker itself is orange and they're in like a clear pack. And that's not all and Welch's Fruit Snacks, which by the way, surprisingly tasty, but essentially gummy fruit in a plastic pouch. 

[00:02:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. 

[00:02:37] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, and we went out to eat and I'm getting like hibachi steak or something. And he's like, "Oh, they have sliders. Oh, good. I'll get an appetizer." So the waiter shows up with like three salads, a hibachi steak, and like a plate full of these tiny burgers that are just drowning and like condiments. And he's like, "Oh wow. There's four of them." I'm like, "Are you 11 years old? Did you always eat like this? I don't understand." I don't remember him being like this. 

[00:03:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: Is your dad, a third-grader on a field trip? 

[00:03:05] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, third-grader on a field trip. The orange crackers were the end of it though. I was like, "You got to be kidding me. Are those actually edible?" 

[00:03:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: Jury's out on whether they're edible, but I do know you can trade them for something way better.

[00:03:17] Jordan Harbinger: You can trade them for something in the lunchroom, in any elementary school nationwide. So yeah, I don't know. I just thought that was hilarious. By the way, my dad is like 80. 

[00:03:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's funny. 

[00:03:27] Jordan Harbinger: Not quite 80, but almost 80. And I'm like, you're never going to change. If this is what you're still going to buy at the store, you are not changing anytime soon, but I love him. Good old dad. 

[00:03:38] Before we jump into today's questions. I wanted to talk about a question I've been getting a lot lately, which is why don't you do an NFT? And I get that question in some format or another. And an NFT, this is a two-hour-long potential definition here, but you essentially own a receipt for a piece of art. It's on the blockchain. I don't want to get into too much of it. If you don't know what an NFT is, whatever, go like make a sandwich for the next 30 seconds. But these are very popular right now. There's a ton of press. I don't have time to define it as well as I'd like to, but I wanted to address this because every influencer right now, and I hate that word too but I'm going to nip that while we're here, every influencer and want-to-be's minting zillions of these NFTs on the blockchain right now.

[00:04:18] And they are 99.99 percent a scam. Not that none of them are going to be worth anything, but they are mostly, almost exclusively worth absolutely nothing. These are scams. You're going to lose money. You're going to regret the purchase, in most instances, probably not every single one. They can also be used to rob you of your cryptocurrency, which is potentially quite dangerous for your finances. If you're in an Ethereum holder, you should look into the fact that these are contracts that can actually drain your wallet. 

[00:04:46] Basically, since they are mostly a scam or bubble and their conspicuous consumption with like kind of mediocre art or even bad art in most cases, I'm going to include a great video on NFTs here in the show notes. It's on a channel called Folding Ideas. This guy is extremely smart. If you watch it, you'll see a pretty good breakdown/takedown of NFTs. The creator also seems to hate Bitcoin. So I disagree with him there and he's got some other opinions I disagree with, but I've never heard a breakdown of NFTs like this. And I think for a lot of you, if you need a primer on NFTs and why they probably are a bunch of crap, this video is a great place to start. Again, we'll link it in the. 

[00:05:24] And look, no worries. I could be very, very wrong about NFTs. And if that is the case, then I plan to simply support other people who are doing NFTs that actually do good. So Sam Harris, who you all know has been on the show, he is going to do something where you take a pledge and you donate a percentage of your income to charity and you get an NFT from him. And if you ever sell the NFT, which you look, maybe they'll go way up in value, then 20 percent or so of the sale price automatically then goes to those charities again, because of the way the NFT is designed.

[00:05:56] And that's really like the only NFT thing I would really support because — it sounds weird to say this — I don't need more money. And if I were to get more money, I certainly would not do so at the expense of my credibility with respect to those of you listening to the show. I mean, I'll sell a mattress or a ball hair trimmer, but that's about where this guy draws a line, okay. 

[00:06:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's lit, yeah. 

[00:06:18] Jordan Harbinger: At least with those things, you actually get what you were promised that I don't have to worry that you invested in like a Manscaped nutsack trimmer and thinking it was going to go up in value by 20,000 percent. 

[00:06:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: It just does what it's supposed to. 

[00:06:28] Jordan Harbinger: It just does what it's supposed to. And to be honest, the art with NFTs is usually garbage. It's used for speculation. It's almost like the products that are used in MLM scams, where the product is just there to become a vehicle for money transfer between people in a pyramid. They exist to facilitate the financials. They're a sideshow, not the headliner, and I've got a lot more gripes with it, but a lot of people don't know/don't care about NFTs, and we got a lot of people to help.

[00:06:52] So, Gabe, what is the first thing out of the mailbag? 

[00:06:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabriel, my husband and I adopted my niece when she was nine years old. When she was 16, she told us that she remembered being sexually assaulted by her older brother, my nephew, who's six years older than my daughter. Since she had been removed from her parents' home at age seven, my nephew could not have been more than 13 years old when this happened. I confronted my nephew about this and he denied it as I expected, but he did not deny it angrily or defensively. In fact, he was shocked and horrified at the accusation. He might not even remember the incident. Even so, this whole thing tore me up. I love both my daughter and my nephew, and I feel as though I can't do anything to help either of them. Ultimately, my daughter did not want to make a report or file charges. She's in her 20s now, well adjusted, and doing great after mentally cutting her older brother out of her life. My nephew has had a harder road, but I've been helping him as he's dealing with his own mental illness and substance abuse issues. I really need to talk to someone about this, about my conflicting feelings, being torn between loving them both, but I live in Texas where the mandatory reporting laws are strong. There's no statute of limitations on sexual assault of a child, and there are no exceptions for the youth of the alleged perpetrator. When my mother tried to talk about this with her own therapist years ago, he was about to file a report, but she was able to convince him not to, by showing how well adjusted my daughter was and telling him that she would simply deny the allegation if approached by officials, but denying the assault after telling a therapist isn't an option for me, because as an attorney, I also have an ethical duty to report. It seems that Texas law makes it impossible for the victim or their loved ones to get psychological help without triggering a mandatory report. I've been keeping this inside for years. I need to talk to somebody, but there's no safe place to do that. So what can I do? Signed, Caught Between a Rock and a Scarred Place. 

[00:08:48] Damn, Jordan, that is an intense letter. I guess everything is bigger in Texas, including the Feedback Friday emails. 

[00:08:56] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that was some letter and frankly, a heartbreaking story and also a fascinating catch-22. I'm very sorry that your daughter/niece went through this terrible — there's a phrase you don't utter every day — went through this terrible experience. I do feel for your nephew on some level as well. He's obviously struggling with his own stuff and it's just all very sad. It must also be tough for you trying to be there for both of them in different ways when they're on opposite sides of this life-defining event. You seem like a very caring person, probably very empathic and generous, and I'm sure it brings up a lot of stuff that you need to process, but then you're stuck because of this ethical duty to report. 

[00:09:35] We wanted to talk to an expert about your situation. So we reached out to Dr. Erin Margolis, clinical psychologist, friend of the show, and Dr. Margolis confirmed that yeah, therapists are indeed mandated reporters. So they have to make a report if they learn of an instance of abuse like this. But it's up to you as the patient to decide what information you want to share with a therapist. If the therapist doesn't have a name and address information about the people involved, stuff like that, then they can't really make a report and child welfare agencies or the police, they just won't have anywhere to go. If a therapist asks you for certain details, you can say, "Listen, I really don't want to make a report. And if I don't give you any information, I know there's no report you can make. So if you ask me questions, we can talk, but I'm just going to choose to not give you any specific details about the who, what, whereof it all. I just really want to focus on the part of this that I'm dealing with now." 

[00:10:31] So according to Dr. Margolis, a patient has control over which information they decide to share and a therapist can't make you do anything you don't want to, which means you can probably talk about this without triggering a report. 

[00:10:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. So there is a way to talk about this, and that's probably the way out of the catch-22. That said, if a therapist says that they have to make a report, but with the limited information that they do have, hmm, that might be a little bit harder to get around. Some therapists might be very by the book about fulfilling their duty to report, even if the report that they generate isn't totally complete. 

[00:11:07] But Dr. Margolis pointed out that once they make that report, it's up to Texas Child Protective Services or the Department of Family and Protective Services, whoever gets involved to decide whether to open a case and actually approach anyone. And at that time, it's really out of the therapist's hands, but even if one of these agencies did approach your daughter or your nephew and your daughter or your nephew say that, "I don't remember what happened," or they just say, "I don't want to talk about this at all," then the case is probably just dead in the water. It's not guaranteed to end up that way, but that just seems to be the likely outcome. 

[00:11:38] For what it's worth, Dr. Margolis told us that the reporting laws in most states, there's a part of them that focuses on whether anyone is in danger of being victimized right now. And she couldn't speak to the nuances of Texas laws specifically, but based on our understanding CPS or DFPS, they would probably take that variable into account when they make a decision about whether to investigate. Your daughter and your nephew are grown up now. They don't seem to have any contact with each other. The potential for abuse is not ongoing, at least with respect to your daughter specifically. So it is possible that that would also make this report a non-starter. 

[00:12:12] The last thing Dr. Margolis has pointed out is that these reports are generally made anonymously, which means that no one would necessarily approach you. So you wouldn't have to confirm or deny anything if anyone ever did investigate. Again, we're not exactly sure how that works in Texas, but if a therapist ever did file a report, you could explicitly ask them to leave your name off of it if it ever came to that. 

[00:12:34] So, yeah, it sounds like that's your way out of this bind, just being very deliberate about what you share, what you don't share so that you can talk about the parts of this experience that you really need to process right now.

[00:12:45] Jordan Harbinger: Right. And look, I know that if the abuse were still going on, you and any therapist would probably fulfill your ethical duty to report as you should, but that's not what's happening. This is a heartbreaking thing that happened a long time ago. Your daughter is doing quite well now. There are conflicting accounts of the event. What's urgent now is that you get to process these conflicts and feelings that you're having for yourself. And I think being selective about certain logistical details, knowing you don't have to intervene to prevent somebody else from getting hurt right this moment, that's how you can talk about all of this without violating any laws, which given the circumstances seems totally fair and very important.

[00:13:25] Again, I'm truly sorry that you're in this position. You sound like a super solid mom and aunt and human being, and I hope you get to work through this stuff with a great therapist. Sending you good thoughts. 

[00:13:35] You know, who won't turn around until all your secrets to a third party without your consent? Facebook. No, no, no, they'll definitely do that. They will definitely do that, but the amazing sponsors who help support this show probably won't. We'll be right back. 

[00:13:49] You're listening to Feedback Friday here on The Jordan Harbinger Show. We'll be right back. 

[00:13:54] This episode is sponsored in part by Bombas. Bombas' mission is simple. Make the most comfortable clothes ever and match every item sold with an equal item donated. So when you buy Bombas, you're also giving to someone in need. Bombas is an incredible company. Everything they make is super soft, seamless, no itchy tags, luxurious, cozy feel. Bombas underwear has a barely-there feel with second skin support that might make you forget they're even there, but in a good way. Bombas socks come and tons of options like comfy performance styles for every sport and activity that keeps you moving. Bombas' t-shirts are made with thoughtful design features like invisible seams, soft fabrics and the perfect weight. So they hang just right. And did you know that socks, underwear, and t-shirts are the three most requested clothing items at homeless shelters? So Bombas donates one for every single item that you buy. They've helped donate over 50 million items of essential clothing. 

[00:14:40] Jen Harbinger: Go to bombas.com/jordan and get 20 percent off any purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S.com/jordan for 20 percent off, bombas.com/jordan. 

[00:14:50] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by Stitch Fix. I don't enjoy shopping and would rather spend the time doing something, literally, anything else. With Stitch Fix, I say, farewell to endless browsing and have a professional send me the fresh picks curated for my taste and size. So if you want to look good, but you don't have time to shop, then Stitch Fix is for you. If you'd like a wardrobe refresh, you're looking for some new styles, Stitch Fix's style experts can help by sending you five pieces that fit your style, size, and price range. They'll send items that work for your unique frames so you can look and feel your best from sunup to sundown. Keep what you like, return the rest for free, or try out Stitch Fix freestyle, which is an online shop built just for you. Discover items that match your vibe and your lifestyle. Style smarter, not harder. 

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[00:15:43] Jordan Harbinger: Thanks for listening and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers keeps us going. Who doesn't love some good products and/or services? You can always visit jordanharbinger.com/deals for all the details on everybody that helps support the show. 

[00:15:56] And now back to Feedback Friday on The Jordan Harbinger Show. 

[00:16:01] All right, what's next? 

[00:16:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey guys, I was just offered a position at a new company that I'm perfectly qualified for. It's a jump and it's a bit scary, but it suits me perfectly. The thing is they agreed to my somewhat crazy high initial salary bid. I cannot wrap my brain around the fact that I will make literally twice as much as I ever thought I would realistically make in my life. I don't have imposter syndrome over the role itself, but I can't help, but feel like I don't deserve this salary, even though everyone seems to think it's justified for the role. I was a jazz guitar major in college and my tech job salary will push us into the next US tax bracket. So how do I resolve this feeling? Signed, Spinning Out About Cashing In. 

[00:16:41] Jordan Harbinger: Jazz guitar major? Man, you were literally trying not to make any money out of college and you failed at that too. Now, for real though, congratulations on this offer and this stupid high salary. I think that's very exciting. Despite your reservations, I'm sure it's appropriate and well deserved. I can definitely appreciate your conflict though. When you get something that you never thought you would have, it can bring up all sorts of thoughts and feelings like guilt and embarrassment, fear, anxiety, the idea that you don't really deserve it, or you didn't earn it for real or whatever it is. So I get where you're coming from. 

[00:17:16] And I think this probably speaks to the fact that you're a pretty grounded person who wants to know that his contribution matches his compensation. But it's interesting. You don't feel like an imposter in the role itself. You just feel like you're punching above your weight salary-wise. And you're obviously not going to go back to the company like, "Hey, thanks so much for the offer. I really want this job, but can you just pay me a little less." No, you're going to take the money. So my advice is to do a bit of a reframe here. Rather than harping on the fact that you don't deserve this salary. I would view this as an opportunity to live up to the salary. Ask yourself what kind of employee would deserve this number on his paycheck. What kind of impact would this person have on the company? How would he manage his team? What would he know or understand or do? I would literally write down your answers to those questions. Break them down into some concrete steps and make that your game plan in your new role. Then your job is to work at becoming that person just a little bit every single day until the employee you are matches the salary in your mind. 

[00:18:22] And if you can do that, I think are going to resolve a lot of the conflict that you have. Because then you won't be sitting in meetings that your new company like, "Dang, I can't believe I'm getting paid this much to sit here." You're going to be thinking, "All right, I'm getting paid to sit here a lot, in fact. So I better show up as the best possible version of myself in this role. Let me listen to, what's really being said, let me offer some great ideas. Let me put in the time to learn." And maybe that means you put in a few more hours each week. Maybe it means you use some of your salary to pay for an executive coach or a certification that will give you some kind of edge. Or you use some of the money to take a few of your colleagues out to dinner so you can build relationships. Whatever specifics you land on, I would use this new job as this sort of engine for your growth.

[00:19:07] That's a much more productive use of the conflict you feel. It'll inspire you to work harder. It'll put your money to good use, to keep leveling up, which by the way, will also mean more raises in the future, which means you'll probably need to keep adopting this mentality as long as you keep rising up. It's a great flywheel to have. And I bet that after a few months of putting in the work, a lot of these feelings are going to start to ease up. In fact, you might even start to think, "Hey man, I deserve to be paid a little bit more," but in my book, that is exactly the right mindset to have if you want to keep getting promoted, work harder than you're being compensated for, then successfully, of course, make the case for why you should be promoted to match your efforts.

[00:19:47] So there you have it. Treat the money as an invitation to grow rather than a stroke of good luck that you need to somehow justify. And congrats, again, my man. This is super exciting. Good luck in the new role. I know you'll settle in great. 

[00:20:00] You can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Use a descriptive subject line. If there's something you're going through, any big decision you're wrestling with, or you just need a new perspective on stuff like life, love, work. Whether you should report from the front lines of a war that's brewing in a country you're living in? Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. 

[00:20:25] All right, next up. 

[00:20:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm very happy to be in a thriving relationship with my fiancée of two years. She's the most thoughtful, passionate, kind, and positive person I have ever been with. And she's made her commitment to us clear through her words and her actions. For example, when we got engaged, she resigned from her job and relocated thousands of miles away from her close-knit family for us to be together. We both say that we've never been happier and we generally communicate well. There's just one red flag. She very rarely includes me in her posts or pictures on social media. Contrast that with my posts, which are mostly pictures of us together. In my experience, the reasons people do this are generally not great for the relationship and might even be a sign of some deeper issue. I know it's a small thing, but then a trusted friend recently brought it up to me out of the blue and told me that he was noticing it too, which may be even more concerned. When we're in person, my fiancée acts proud to be with me. She loves to include me when she's with her friends. And she goes out of her way to introduce me to her coworkers, all of that. She's very considerate. And I know that if I brought this up to her, she would apologize and change, but I'm extremely reluctant to do that. I know that it wouldn't make me feel any better as I would still wonder about the true reason behind her not posting me. Also, if it turns out that there really is nothing to it, I would just be making her feel bad for no reason. Am I overthinking this? Or could this be an early sign of trouble? Signed, The Invisible Bae.

[00:21:51] Jordan Harbinger: Hmm, this is an interesting one. On one hand, it seems kind of trivial to count the number of photos, your fiancée posts of you. To your point, the important thing is how she acts, how she treats you, what she does. Social media, that's a hall of mirrors. It's an illusion. It means nothing compared to how your fiancée feels about you in her real life. And that sounds like it's fantastic. On the other hand, it is your fiancée. So if Instagram is actually a reflection of her life, I could understand being a little thrown about why you're just not in any photos, but again, this photo thing, it could mean nothing. 

[00:22:25] Gabe, I wonder if maybe his fiancée is one of those people who have like a huge Instagram following, maybe it's work-related, maybe she's like an influencer or performer or something like that. And she's worried that if she posts pictures of her fiance, some people will unfollow her. It's incredibly dumb and it's gross, but I have a few female friends who are models, actors, low-key celebrity types, influencers, whatever you want to call it. And they've told me that when they post a photo of their boyfriend or their husband or whatever, or even a friend they're hugging, that's a guy like 300 people just or more instantly unfollow them. And obviously, it's all just dudes who are secretly hoping they'll have a shot with them one day— 

[00:23:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. 

[00:23:02] Jordan Harbinger: —who they want to preserve the fantasy that these women don't have a real life behind the facade. All of which just says everything about the fraudulence and toxicity of social media, but that's another episode. So are you overthinking this? Hard to say, even if this whole photo thing turned out to mean nothing. The fact that it's nagging at you, that it's something you want to express, but you feel afraid to bring up, I do think that makes it meaningful because then it's not really about the social media stuff. It's about how you feel about each other. It's about which things you feel you can bring up with your fiancée. I'm thinking, just talk to her. 

[00:23:38] You guys communicate really well. You said you have a strong relationship. I would tell her exactly what you told us, which is that you see how much she cares about you. You have total confidence in your relationship. You love her, you know that she loves you. There's just this one little thing. You don't know what to make of, and you want to talk about it. You could even say, "Look, I know this is probably dumb. If I'm overthinking this, just tell me, but I can't help but notice that you don't really post photos of me on social and I do. Uh, as I'm a little embarrassed to even bring this up, but I got to ask, is there a reason for that? Because I'm kind of spinning out here imagining all the reasons you might not want to post me. And I'd like to be able to put that to bed." I don't know something like that. Then just give her a chance to respond. 

[00:24:20] Maybe she's not even aware she's doing this. Maybe she's just so focused on posting work and friends' stuff that she hasn't even thought about it, or maybe she is aware of this. And there's some very specific reasons she doesn't want to post photos of you. And then you'll have to decide how you feel about that. For example, if she says something like, "Honestly, I just love that this part of my life with you is private and it's ours. And I don't want to turn that into a marketing material." That might be a great reason not to post you if she actually means it, of course.

[00:24:49] But if she's like, "Oh, you know, I don't know. I'm worried what the guys I work with would think," or something along those lines, you might want to dig into that with her a little bit more. Maybe she's doing the whole living two lives on social media thing, which in my opinion is exhausting. It's inauthentic, potentially damaging to herself and to your relationship. Or maybe she's worried that people won't pay as much attention to her if they know she's spoken for, also very common with people who are online. It's a problematic assumption. Or maybe she really does have some conflicts around your relationship. And that's just showing up in this Instagram thing. 

[00:25:23] To be clear. We have no idea. This is just me spitballing possibilities. I guess my point is, make it safe for her to be honest, be prepared for whatever her response is, and then decide if it's something that you can live with or if it actually speaks to some deeper issue in your relationship. Honestly, my hunch is that it probably says more about social media than it does about how she feels about you. But that doesn't mean it also doesn't affect you. 

[00:25:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. Right. Which makes it a totally valid thing to bring up with your partner and about this other thing, you said that you're reluctant to bring this up because you know that she would change, but then you would still be wondering about the true reason she's not posting you. I think that's a very interesting detail too. I actually think that makes this conversation even more important. Because it sounds to me like you're assuming at the outset that you're not going to get the truth from her or that you sharing this concern with her would only be making her feel bad for no reason as you put it to us, but that's not necessarily the case. 

[00:26:21] I mean, you, expressing a concern or a question to your fiancée, that's not making her feel bad for no reason. And even if she does end up feeling a little bit about it, I mean, there is a reason, right? The reason is that you're noticing a possible disconnect and how you guys treat each other, possibly how you guys feel about each other. So I actually think there's some very good stuff for you to confront in this conversation as well. Stuff that's actually much more important than how many selfies she posted the two of you. 

[00:26:46] Jordan Harbinger: Great point, Gabe. It's almost like the social media thing is the tip of the iceberg. And the real thing is what this guy feels he can and can't bring up with his partner. 

[00:26:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes.

[00:26:55] Jordan Harbinger: So I hope you get to talk about this little advice from a married guy. The more of these healthy conflicts you can explore and resolve before you get married, the better. Whenever you notice yourself shying away from a tough conversation, I recommend leaning into it. That doesn't mean you're looking for a fight or being difficult or whatever. It means you want to keep the line of communication open and better understand whatever feelings you're having. So you guys can be as close as possible. Ultimately, that's always a good thing. 

[00:27:24] You know, who won't try and hide you from all their thirsty fans? The products and services that support this show. 

[00:27:31] This is The Jordan Harbinger Show, and this is Feedback Friday. We'll be right back. 

[00:27:35] This episode is sponsored in part by Progressive. What's one thing you'd purchase with a little extra savings? A weighted blanket, a smart speaker, that new self-care trend you keep hearing about. Well, Progressive wants to make sure you're getting what you want by helping you save money on car insurance. Drivers who saved by switching to Progressive save over $700 on average and customers can qualify for an average of six discounts when they sign up. Discounts, like having multiple vehicles on your policy. Progressive offers outstanding coverage and award-winning claim service. Day or night, customer support is 24/7, 365 days a year. When you need them most, they're at their best. A little off your rate each month goes a long way. Get a quote today at progressive.com and see why four out of five new auto customers recommend Progressive. 

[00:28:15] Jen Harbinger: Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. National Annual Average Insurance Savings by new customers surveyed who saved with progressive between June 2020 and May 2021. Potential savings will vary. Discounts vary and are not available in all states and situations. 

[00:28:29] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by apartments.com. With the most rental listings anywhere, there's no wrong way to get into your right place on apartments.com. For instance, you could latch a tablet to the wall and throw magnetic darts at the rental search map, or you could lather your phone screen and peanut butter and let your furry roommate lick their way to a tasty new pet-friendly place. Or you could use a tablet-like a spirit board and call upon your beloved late Nana, so she gets her say too. You could also have my son, Jayden, toss a handful of Mac & Cheese at the screen and see where it lands. That's actually our preferred method. And now, apartments.com even offers virtual tours, so you can explore your potential place from anywhere with an Internet connection. At a bar on a bad first date, knock yourself out. On a tandem bike peddling along the beach, is not advisable, but certainly not impossible either. Around base camp at Mount Everest, now that's sneering the summit of all the ways that you can search. From the tried and true methods and the virtually enhanced techniques to the downright unorthodox approaches, you're bound to discover that special somewhere to call your own on apartments.com. The most popular place to find a place. 

[00:29:31] By the way Spotify, just released the ability to rate the show in the Spotify app. You search for the show in Spotify, and then you click the little dots on the right, and there's an option for rate the show. Please rate us five stars. I think it helps. I know a lot of you using Spotify wanted to rate and review and didn't have a chance because it was only on Apple and other platforms before. But please in your Spotify app, search for The Jordan Harbinger Show, if you need to do that, and then click the little dots up there on the right and rate us five stars. I think those ratings are going to matter for the charts. So if you want to help other people discover the show, I would really appreciate it. It would be super helpful. Thank you so much. 

[00:30:04] And now, for the conclusion of Feedback Friday. 

[00:30:09] All right. What's next? 

[00:30:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I'm of Asian descent. And since moving to a homogenous part of the country, I've encountered several people who have exclaimed with genuine surprise, "You speak such good English." When I've replied, "Well, I should hope so. I was born here." I've received confused, head tilts and knitting of brows that tells me that they are not able to process why that would matter. To give you another example, I was recently introduced to a woman by a mutual friend. She immediately told me her daughter-in-law's full maiden, Asian name, followed with an awkward, hopeful smile, that I would say I knew her. I replied, "Oh," she then asked my name again, which I repeated, even though she had just heard it. She explained, "Oh, no, that's your American name. I mean, what's your name?" I explained that I was born here. It's the only name I have. This did not seem to phase her at all. The list goes on and on. I've been mistaken for a Laundromat attendant when a machine breaks. I've been approached as somebody who works at a plant nursery, even when I was dressed up and carrying a purse. I've had people assume that I'm a salon worker because of my eyes. And I've been asked if I'm a doctor because, and I quote, most Asian people are doctors. Look, this isn't the end of the world. Full-blown racism is obviously worse. But after the last incident, I realized that not calling out these assumptions allows stereotypes of all ethnicities to endure. It also allows people to continue obliviously asking these same questions in the future even if they don't mean any harm. I've played these scenarios out in my head, but I can't figure out how to explain to somebody, especially someone older than me that while I don't believe they are racist, their questions and responses are offensive. Are these teachable moments or is it best to just let them go? Signed, Not a Doctor, But Still Diagnosing People's Bullsh*t. 

[00:31:53] Jordan Harbinger: You know, it's funny. This kind of thing has happened to me indirectly. So Jen, and for those of you listening, who don't know, Jen is Asian. She's Taiwanese, but she's American, right? I mean, she doesn't have an accent. She was born in freaking Connecticut. So her and I are sitting somewhere in San Francisco eating like Peruvian food or something. And it's one of those restaurants where the window probably used to be a retail store. So we're sitting at like a window that is totally open to the street and even part of your table, there's like a plant and catch up bottles and silverware on this armrest and beyond that is just the sidewalk. And beyond that is in the Mission District and there's a bus stop out there. 

[00:32:29] And this woman walks up, this white lady, who's like, I don't know, maybe in her 40s, she walks up and goes, "Excuse me, do you know when the—?" to gen, right? "Do you know when the bus—? And then stops in the middle of a sentence, looks over at me on the other side of the table and goes, "Oh, you speak English. Do you know when the bus comes?" And I was like, "Uh, uh," and I'm looking at Jen and Jen's like, "I speak English. Are you kidding me right now?" And we did not know what to do. So I just said, "No, I'm not really sure." But right then the bus came and she just ran away and Jen goes, "Why wouldn't I speak English?" I'm like, "That woman is not from California." She probably grew up in like somewhere in Michigan or Ohio, like me and just like never met an Asian person that doesn't have an accent or something. I don't know. It was so freaking weird in 2019 for that to happen or 2017, whatever it was. I've never seen anything like that before. That was a first time for me. And I was blown away by that. 

[00:33:25] Apparently it happens to Jen, not all the time, but some of the time, but we live in freaking Silicon Valley. So I can imagine that if you live in a small town and there aren't that many Asians there, that probably happens a lot. So I get it. This is super annoying and kind of bizarre. It's almost like a cartoonish 1950s version of racism or something. And you're right. Most of these people probably are not trying to be hurtful. This is an overt, toxic racism, like you see in those creepy viral videos on Facebook of old ladies, screaming at some Asian person, who's going for a jog in their own neighborhood or whatever.

[00:33:58] But I totally understand why this hurts on some level. And I think a lot of people who are in the minority in their country can relate. So do you speak up in school, these people, or do you just let it go? Well, it's a tricky one. Part of me wants to say, hell, yeah, clap back. Tell the woman at the nail salon that Asian people can be customers, explain to the bro at the laundromat that, "Asian people do their laundry too, Chad." Obviously, these people don't realize how they're coming across. They need somebody to point it out. But then another part of me is like, "That is not your job." You shouldn't have to go out and do your errands and be defacto racism coach 24/7. Sadly, you might be the person who can help these people grow a little bit, but it sucks that it falls on you.

[00:34:41] So I think the answer is to do what feels authentic to you, do what feels right. And that may change from day to day, person to person, circumstance to circumstance. If there's a day where you're feeling more generous and patient, and some guy at a party asks you which hospital you work at, because you must be a doctor, maybe you just say, "Nope, not a doctor, sorry to disappoint you. Do you think all Asian people are doctors?" And then just gently help him understand why that's a ridiculous assumption. But if there's a day where you're tired and you just want to be left alone, and some lady at the nursery asks you where a potting soil is, you can be like, "Sorry, ma'am. I'm just here to buy a cactus from my apartment," and just let it roll off your back. No other explanation is needed. That is totally fair too. 

[00:35:24] I think a lot of this has to do with your read on these people. Like if some brash, obviously racist man on an airplane starts talking loudly and slowly at you, maybe you just disengage. You're probably not going to change his mind. And also you don't want to start one of those airplane fights that ended up on the evening news. But if some well-meaning, but kind of clueless lady asks you to break a 20 at the Laundromat, maybe you just say, "Listen, I'm sure you didn't mean anything by it, but I don't work here. Maybe you think I do because of how I look, but that's not how it actually works. It's a little annoying to hear that. So yeah, just something to keep in mind for next time." And then you just point her to somebody who actually does work there. So she doesn't feel attacked or shamed for her ignorance. Also, it's not like you're ever going to be able to educate everybody on earth or even in your small town. So you have to pick your battles. It's incredibly frustrating. It sucks, but again, not your job. 

[00:36:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: Not her job. I agree Jordan, but that said, I do think that a conversation like this if it's handled well, of course, that could be very empowering for you. It could be really helpful for people who say this kind of stuff. So when you do decide to speak up and check somebody, my advice would be, just try to be friendly. Try to be patient, try to be non-confrontational at least in the beginning. Give them the benefit of the doubt. Maybe you put a smile on your face. Maybe you're willing to laugh about it a little bit. I think that will disarm these people. It'll make the medicine go down a little bit smoother and it will also avoid creating another unfortunate stereotype in these people.

[00:36:52] Like, you know, the person who stops you at the nursery, won't be like, "Oh, all Asian people are so sensitive," and like walk away, all angry. It is wild, but sadly, that is how a lot of people might risk. So instead I would just smile and say something like, "Listen, I'm not trying to get on my soapbox here. I know you probably didn't mean anything by it, but I just got to say, uh, you know, that not all Asian people are doctors, right? Like that is absurd. Also, I was born here, like tens of millions of Asian people in America. That's why my name is Cassidy. I don't have another name. That is my name." So just keep that in mind. Because when you ask questions like that and you assume things, it just probably comes across in a way that you probably don't intend.

[00:37:32] And if the person is like, "Oh my God, I'm so sorry. I'm so embarrassed. Thank you for telling me." Then you'll know that you did a good thing for a decent person move about your day. But if the person is like, "Whoa, whoa, calm down. I'm just saying a lot of my doctors are Asian. Sometimes they have names, I can't pronounce. How is that racist?" Then you have to decide whether to escalate and make it a thing. Or you just say, "Okay, look, I tried to share another perspective with you. It sounds like you don't want to listen. Ah, that's okay. I'm just, I'm going to go now," and just leave. Again, I think Jordan is right. The context really does matter.

[00:38:06] Jordan Harbinger: Totally agree, Gabe. Can't save them all. Again, I know it's frustrating. I hate that you have to deal with this, but if you want to make a small difference, just speaking up in the right moments might be helpful. And sadly, your ammo might have to be letting a lot of this BS slide off your back just to keep your own sanity. People, be ignorant and crazy. Try not to let it hurt you more than it has to. Ultimately, whatever people say or do, it only reflects on them and take that for what it's worth. This is just a couple of Occidental's telling you what we think. So hang in there. 

[00:38:38] All right. Next up. 

[00:38:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey guys, I'm a woman in my mid-40s working in the health industry. I've been with the company for a couple of years, and I manage a team of six who range in age from mid-20s to mid-60s. For the past six months, the performance of one of the guys in my team has progressively deteriorated. Once a happy and enthusiastic team player, he's become argumentative and aggressive in meetings with me and his colleagues. And he's even started to be like this with our customers. He dominates conversations, but he doesn't listen to others. His work output is extremely low. And if I talk with him about his behavior with customers, he tells me to give them to someone else to manage. When I try to talk to him about why his behavior has changed, he says everything is fine and dismisses any suggestions that he might need some support. I suspect that he thinks that because he's older and has been in the company for over 20 years, he's untouchable. I also suspect that he would like to retire, but he can't. So he's sticking around for the money. I'm rapidly losing patients with this guy. And I don't want to risk a situation where I end up behaving as badly as him when he yet again, shows up to a meeting full of attitude and arrogance and having done very little work. So how can I resolve this without going to performance management? Signed, Putting Bartleby in His Place. 

[00:39:51] Jordan Harbinger: Bartleby? 

[00:39:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: Bartleby, the Scrivener. Have you ever read that story? 

[00:39:54] Jordan Harbinger: No. 

[00:39:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's a really cool short story by Herman Melville. It's about this guy who just starts showing up to work one day. And when his boss asks him to do something, he just starts saying, "I would rather not." Like every time they ask him, he's just like, "I'd rather not. I'd rather not. I'd rather not." And finally, it just completely destroys, like the whole office falls apart and it throws the entire company into chaos. It's just kind of like an interesting story about, I think about capitalism and about like what we do or don't do at work, but— 

[00:40:20] Jordan Harbinger: It's like office space, but written by the author of Moby Dick.

[00:40:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Actually, I think this story was a huge influence on the movie Office Space, actually. 

[00:40:28] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it sounds like. 

[00:40:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't know if I'm making that up or if I read that, but I think it was, yeah, big influence. 

[00:40:32] Jordan Harbinger: Anyway, what a piece of work. I'm sorry. You're dealing with these. Having an employee like this is the worst. It's kind of like managing the guy from Office Space, speaking of that, except he's not funny or charming whatsoever. He's just bitter and lazy and domineering. I do have some compassion for this guy because I don't think you treat your colleagues or your customers like garbage if you're not hurting on some level, but what this guy is doing, he's compromising the team. He's compromising the company. He's wasting your time. He's getting a free ride. It's just not right. 

[00:41:05] We wanted to talk to an expert about your questions. So we'd reached out to the awesome Ebonee Younger, employee relations expert, and talent strategist. And Ebonee's first response to your letter was good on you for having a human conversation with this guy. She actually thought that you're doing a great job as a manager. You assumed positive intent. You tried to talk to this guy face to face. You gave him some space to say, "Hey, actually something is wrong. I'm really struggling with this or that. Sorry, I've been acting up. I need help." But then he refused that invitation to talk and he seems to still be doing the same thing, maybe even getting worse. Ebonee also thought that you were dead on and very self-aware to recognize that you might snap and respond poorly to this guy's BS if you don't come up with a plan. In her experience, that's quite common in companies and it never helps the situation. 

[00:41:55] So Ebonee's answer to your question, can you resolve this without going to performance management, is nope. At this point, there isn't a way where you won't have to put this guy on some kind of corrective action. I know it's uncomfortable, but this is a conflict you're probably going to have to lean into as a manager if you want things to change.

[00:42:14] So Ebonee's advice is to first check your company's policy about how to discipline an employee like this. Then she recommends partnering with your HR business manager from the get-go to come up with a fair plan, start communicating very directly with this guy about what you expect from him, and then document his performance. You know, like, "All right, I need you to fill out X many orders per week. I expect you to treat customers kindly and respectfully. I expect you to collaborate with your coworkers," whatever it is. And then every time he only fulfills N orders, right? Every time he snaps at a customer on the phone, or every time he dismisses somebody in a meeting or tries to wiggle out of work, you write that down. Date, time, circumstances, location, backstory, what he said, what he did, what he didn't do. 

[00:43:01] As Ebonee put it to us from an HR standpoint, if it isn't documented, it didn't happen. This by the way is my exact advice in any legal situation as well. You've heard me say it a million times. Document, document, document. And this case you're building, Ebonee said it needs to be what she called progressive, meaning it needs to capture how this problem progressed over a period of time. Ebonee told us that a lot of the time she'll see a manager come to our office and right off the bat, they're just like, "I hate Bob. Bob's got to go." And it's like, "Okay, well, what happened? What were your conversations with him like? What have you done to try to fix things? Did you document anything?" And they're like, "Ah, no, I just hate Bob. I want him gone." And Ebonee said that makes things much harder, of course. 

[00:43:40] And this documentation, depending on your company, it'll probably have to go on for 60 to 90 days while you give this guy every shot at turning the ship around. And that will probably mean micromanaging him for that period of time. You might have to rely on daily check-ins more explicit targets to hit, more feedback conversations. Try that for a month and see if he gets better. And if he doesn't, you document it, you performance manage him a little harder for another month and see if anything changes. Then if absolutely nothing changes, the next step could be terminal.

[00:44:14] Once you've articulated things that clearly, and he's demonstrably not doing those things, then in Ebonee's book, you definitely have a leg to stand on in terms of holding this guy accountable. And all of this should be in partnership with HR. 

[00:44:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Good advice. And Ebonee said a few things might happen when you go through this process. This guy, this guy is driving you crazy, he might realize that things are serious. Start to improve, which could be a good outcome. Or he might just get fed up and quit, in which case, problem-solve, kind of a great outcome. Or he might get angry and actually get worse, in which case, you keep documenting that. You write it down, what do you say, when he blows up or whatever it is, and you take that to HR when you finally have enough evidence that this guy is a real problem. 

[00:44:57] Ebonee did say that there are a few other things worth keeping in mind though. First of all, this is a 20-year employee. This guy's probably near retirement age. So make sure that you wouldn't be violating any type of good faith agreement or something like that by maybe terminating this employee very close to retirement. Ebonee's advice, talk with your company's counsel and/or HR before you make any huge employment decisions. The other thing that stood out to Ebonee is just how brazen this guy is. Where Ebonee's mind went was, does this guy know somebody's like really high up in the company? Does he have something on somebody else in the company? Like, do he and the CEO go to church and then play golf together every Sunday or something like that? Or did he catch the CEO expensing a night at the strip club? Or this is me imagining what the scenarios are. Ebonee was much more delicate than that. Because this dude, he's acting like he's untouchable. 

[00:45:46] As Ebonee said to us, yes, it's an employee's market these days, but most employees are not slagging off their customers and telling their bosses that they're just not interested in doing any work. So maybe ask around, sniff out some intel before you make a move so that you know exactly who and what you're up against here. But bottom line, if this guy will not change, I think this dude ultimately has to go, not just because he's being a top-shelf d-bag at the moment, but because having an employee like this can become like kind of a cancer on a team, it sucks up valuable time and energy. It demoralizes the good employees. It creates a toxic work environment. If this guy is this miserable, he should leave. He should find somewhere else where he would be happier or could make a better impact. Yes, he's been there for two decades, but as Ebonee put it that doesn't give anybody a free ride. If he doesn't want to play ball, then you have grounds to performance manage him out of the organization, so he can go on and do something that makes him happier. And we agree with her there 100 percent. 

[00:46:43] Jordan Harbinger: Definitely. If you do all this fairly and transparently, then you'll have given this guy every opportunity. And after that, in my view, he's dug his own grave. Big thanks to Ebonee for her sage advice. You can find Ebonee on Twitter and on Instagram at @CareerSupreme, which sounds like something you might order a Taco Bell or on LinkedIn. And she is great, fantastic talent expert. We'll link to all of her socials in the show notes. Thanks, Ebonee, for helping us out on this one. 

[00:47:08] Hope y'all enjoyed that. I want to thank everyone who wrote in this week and everyone who listened. Thank you so much. Go back and check out Amanda Montell on the language of cults and our deep dive on how to get your foot in the door if you haven't heard that yet.

[00:47:20] Want to know how I managed to book all the amazing people on the show? It's all about the network and check out our Six-Minute Networking course, which is free over on the Thinkific platform at jordanharbinger.com/course. I'm teaching you how to build relationships and dig the well before you get thirsty. The drills take just a few minutes a day. Again, all free@jordanharbinger.com/course. 

[00:47:42] A link to the show notes for the episode can be found at jordanharbinger.com. Transcripts in the show notes. I'm at @JordanHarbinger on both Twitter and Instagram, or just hit me on LinkedIn. You can find Gabe on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi or on Instagram at @GabrielMizrahi. 

[00:47:57] This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, Josh Ballard, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but not your lawyer to do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Ditto Ebonee Younger. 

[00:48:16] Dr. Margolis' input is general psychological information based on research and clinical experience. It's intended to be general and informational in nature and does not represent or indicate an established clinical or professional relationship with those inquiring for guidance. 

[00:48:29] Remember, we rise by lifting others. So share the show with those you love. And if you found this episode useful, please do share it with somebody else who can use the advice that we gave here today. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show, so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time. 

[00:48:46] If you're looking for another episode of The Jordan Harbinger Show to sink your teeth into, here's a trailer with one of Al-Qaeda's most respected bomb and poison makers who swore allegiance to Osama bin Laden himself. Here's a quick listen. 

[00:48:59] Aimen Dean: We took so many prisoners, 80 of them were taken to a clearing and it was decided there and then that these people will have to pay for the crimes, what they did. Seeing the bloodthirsty nature of people who just until a year ago, I used to see them as sweet, tender, decent good people, suddenly, basically became people who would use chainsaws to dismember these people alive. How could one year in Bosnia, one year of ugly conflict, turn these wonderful souls into ugly bloodthirsty individuals? When I went to sleep that night, all I could think about was how could I unsee what I'd seen. 

[00:49:42] None other than the mastermind of 9/11, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, he said to us, "You should go to Afghanistan where the training camps are re-opening to become good at bomb-making, to become good at urban warfare, to become good at the assassinations, at kidnapping. A new kind of war that will never be fought in the mountains anymore, but it will be fought in every urban center from the pole to the pole." 

[00:50:07] Suddenly, you know, I thought that the nature of the wars is changing from fighting in the mountains of Bosnia and, basically, we are talking about gassing people in cinemas, nightclubs, and trains. Of course, that was unsettling, but I thought this is just the ranting of one insane individual. Al-Qaeda carried out its first serious attack against American interests. 

[00:50:28] Everyone was jubilant in the camps. They were firing bullets into the air in celebration and shouting Allahu Akbar. We are no longer, just a bunch of freedom fighters. We are now bonafide terrorists. 

[00:50:44] Jordan Harbinger: To hear why and how Aimen Dean eventually switched sides from being a Jihadi to spending eight years as an MI6 spy trying to take Al-Qaeda down from the inside, check out episode 383 on The Jordan Harbinger Show. 

[00:50:59] This episode is sponsored in part by My First Million podcast. If you're the type of person who's always thinking about new business ideas or wondering what the next side hustle is that you can spin up, check out the podcast, My First Million. The hosts are friends of mine, Sam Parr and Shaan Puri. They've each built eight-figure businesses and sold them to HubSpot and Amazon. And each week, they brainstorm business ideas that you can start tomorrow. They can be side hustles that make you a few grand a month. Some of them have the potential to be big billion-dollar ideas. So many interesting episodes, like how to make money as an influencer. They're not necessarily recommending you do that. They're just breaking down the economics of that weirdo industry. Business opportunities of stay-at-home moms and how a guy from Georgia made like $44 million from a Chrome extension. They also chat with founders, celebrities, and billionaires, and get them to open up about business ideas that they've never shared before. So search for My First Million, that's My First Million on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.