1087: Can Trust Be Recovered After Diary Discovered? | Feedback Friday

1087: Can Trust Be Recovered After Diary Discovered? | Feedback Friday

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[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the sidewalk sandwich board inviting you into this bougie gastro pub of delicious life conundrum. Gabriel Mizrahi.

[00:00:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: one of those gastro pubs where the kombucha's like $14 obviously, right? Yeah.

Well it's, it's house made that's, it comes from a barrel we rolled in from the alleyway. That's right.

[00:00:25] Jordan Harbinger: Where that, that homeless people urinate on during Okay. During closing hours. That took a weird turn. Yeah. Uh, but you know, that's what happens to all those barrels in the alley. That is kind of what kombucha is.

You could argue. Yeah. What's the difference at that point? There was a Chinese restaurant, I wanna say somewhere around here, where they busted one of the owners. Crushing garlic with his bare feet. Nice. So there's that. That has nothing to do with anything we're talking about. I just wanted to share that.

Absolutely nothing, but I love it. Thank you. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories. Yeah. I ate there last week. The stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

And our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks from undercover, economic hitmen, gold smugglers, Russian spies, astronauts, four star generals. This week we had my friend Ryan Holiday on his new book write Thing right now.

A lot of talk about integrity, how to make difficult choices. I just, great conversation with Ryan Holidays, Ben. I think he's been on probably more than any other guest on the show. And I always enjoy, I always learned so much from him. I always enjoy my conversations with him. I think he will as well. We also had a skeptical Sunday, last Sunday on traditional Chinese medicine.

On Fridays, though we share stories, offer advice, compare Gabe to quaint analog marketing tactics. Before we kick off a, a funny story. I remember the other day, Gabe, so about 20 years ago I was going on a cruise with my girlfriend and her family and I didn't have a, a flight, so I drove to Miami with my college roommate 'cause he had a cruise too.

And I ended up getting there a day early. I guess they had their cruise left a day early. So I had to sleep in the lobby of a hotel until it was the earliest time that the boat opened up and I could actually board. So I get there and they let me check in early and it was like they had no room, but they made an exception 'cause I was like, I'm basically homeless and I'm just gonna wait by this weird ramp unless you let me on the boat.

And they're like, all right, fine. So I boarded and then I went to go get off the boat for a bit after dropping off my luggage and taking a shower in the room. And I'm dressed in flip flops and a polo and like cargo shorts, whatever the hell I was wearing back then. And I go to get off the boat and there's a bunch of staff and people moving, you know, drink carts and food and supplies on and off the boat.

So I go down, I guess it's called a gangway. Uh, I don't know. That sounds nautical. Yeah. The thing that you walk down to get. Yeah. Mm-Hmm. The thing you walk down to get off a boat on and off a boat, and suddenly this guy goes, where the hell do you think you are going? And this like, weird, you know, stodgy accent.

And I stop. I'm just like, uh, what? Like you get back on the ship right now. I'm like, okay, can I ask why? He's like, I don't have to tell you why I'm the captain of this ship and you turn around, you turn and get back on this boat right now. So I turn and I head back to the boat and he's like, where do you work anyway?

And I'm like, I, I don't have a job. I'm a student. And he's like, oh my God, are you a guest on this ship? And I'm like, yeah. And he's like, oh God, I am so sorry. I thought you worked on the boat. And I was, no, I'm just really early. I checked in, I wanted to go walk around for a while and he's like, I, I am so, so sorry.

I'm the captain of the boat. I owe you one. Let me know if you're interested in any sort of events or anything special on the boat. I owe you a massive apology.

[00:03:21] Gabriel Mizrahi: He just snapped at you 'cause you thought you were an employee who was faffing off.

[00:03:24] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, he just thought I was like, yeah, faffing off. Avoiding whatever sort of prep duty that I probably was supposed to be doing in my department of the boat to go dick around in Miami.

Most of the staff was around the same age. They were all from Poland or Eastern Europe or you know, someplace like that. There was a bunch of staff from Estonia and I'm guessing here and there. They make a hire or two that just screw around a lot and this captain has to constantly keep them in line or some officer on the boat has to constantly keep them in line.

So later on I'm there with my girlfriend and her family and the captain comes up to us at the dinner and is like, hello my friend, and gives us this awesome tour of the bridge and all this cool stuff. He has a different accent now. Yeah. I can't really do a Dutch accent other than the one from I love gold.

That was Dutch gold. Interesting. The whole staff was Dutch.

[00:04:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. I'm so confused by the dialect of this character. The only Dutch accent I have is gold member from Austin Towers. He started off like Edwardian, England. Hey, it's gonna just shift by the end of this story. It is gonna be from new the Philippine on.

He's

[00:04:20] Jordan Harbinger: gonna get we're we're going to New Zealand. So yeah, he gives us the great tour of the bridge, all this cool stuff on the boat and. He told the family it was because I was such a charming guy and had talked to him early on in the trip and he and I were sort of chummy and laughing about this really funny mistake.

He didn't really wanna admit that mistake to the family that I was with, which I thought was funny. So he turned it into a compliment, which wasn't really true. He. I thought it was funny. I was just enjoying the special treatment. He later said, I knew I was in trouble the minute I heard your American accent.

'cause I guess they don't hire Americans on the boat for probably a million different reasons, but one of which is it's $4

[00:04:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: an hour. I love that your cargo shorts and polo shirt with the collar popped was not enough for him to know that you were not right. No, I guess that's a, that was

[00:05:02] Jordan Harbinger: probably the de reor migrant labor uniform for all these young guys.

Don't worry. Still away uniform. Yeah, so I don't, I don't think there's any kinda lesson in here. It was just a really funny thing that could have soured the experience for me or could have turned out poorly, but ended up making the trip even more memorable. 'cause we got special treatment. And I had a funny start to the vacation by being yelled at by the captain of the ship.

I love it. I love when stuff like that happens.

[00:05:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Well, speaking of lessons, one more thing before we jump in. Two weeks ago, we took a letter from a woman who, as you guys might remember, had to co-parent with her criminal ex-husband. Right. And in her letter, she mentioned that the first time he was arrested, he was busted by a number of different law enforcement agencies, including the game wardens.

And when we took the letter, we were like, why would the game wardens be there? Right. Well, one of our listeners, Eric, wrote us and pointed out that when you have a hot tip and the suspect in question has any sort of illegal dealings that a game warden could theoretically be a part of. Apparently when you're in law enforcement, you always call them because they don't need a warrant.

So in California, for example, phishing and game wardens are generally allowed to come onto a private property without a warrant, and it's because of something called the open fields doctrine. Then the other agencies that they're working with can just walk right in the house behind them and they're basically free to roam and they don't have to go through all the paperwork.

[00:06:15] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, wow. That could get dicey, but I also totally get it. That's definitely a loophole. Call the game warden so that they can open the door and then the rest of us will just run rough shot over this person's Fourth Amendment rights. Yeah, that is super interesting though. I kind of remember from my law school days, open Fields doctrine.

Yeah. It argues that the Fourth Amendment's, protection against Search and Seizure doesn't apply to, so-called Open Fields. So police can search open fields without a warrant or probable cause. Again, clever little shady, but clever. So we don't know whether this guy was illegally hunting or trespassing or something.

And that's why the game wardens were there. Whether the cops were like, uh, bring the game warden because we don't, we're gonna do a fishing, well, pardon the pun, a fishing expedition. And we might be able to find something and we can't, we don't have enough to get a warrant. Who knows?

[00:07:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, that's right.

Yeah. It's so interesting.

[00:07:03] Jordan Harbinger: It really is. So in case you were also wondering what the heck was going on, why there was a game warden involved. That's why it's so, they don't need to call a judge and argue for probable cause. And now let us trespass over any semblance of normalcy by diving into the mailbag.

[00:07:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, from one narcissist to another. By the way, the theme continues this month. All right. Take it away. Hi Jordan and Gabe. I was in an extremely abusive marriage and relationship emotionally, physically, financially, and psychologically for 17 years with a narcissist. Wow. I successfully left this marriage 10 years ago, but I had two children with him and unfortunately have to co-parent with him.

Oof.

[00:07:37] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I'm very sorry to hear that man. Gabe, we have been hearing from a lot of partners of narcissists lately, haven't we? Yeah. I don't know. I guess it's

[00:07:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: that time of the year.

[00:07:45] Jordan Harbinger: Yes. Narcissist

[00:07:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: season. That's apparently, yeah, that makes total sense. They famously emerge after daylight savings is over.

Don't you know that? No. I don't know. Coincidence, I guess, or maybe, I guess people hear stories on the show about them and then they feel moved to write in. Sure. That must be it. It just

[00:07:57] Jordan Harbinger: feels like a massive uptick. Yeah. I guess the Dr. Romney episodes have also been landing with people 'cause they're like, oh, this person is a massive narcissist.

Not just, it's not just a weird thing that we have. Anyway, carry on.

[00:08:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: After leaving him, I went to extensive therapy for many years. I've been in a relationship for seven years, and as you can imagine, there are some tough times when your baggage includes a narcissist ex who isn't above physical threats.

Wow. After 10 years of being quote unquote free from him, he kept me in legal battle after legal battle as a means of control. Eventually, it was my turn to ask the court to get permission to emigrate with one of our children to Europe with my new partner. The eldest is an adult now. After three years, the court granted me full custody and permission to immigrate, and now we're gearing up for the big move.

The problem is I have a business doing digital marketing and social media specializing in hospitality. My ex, who's currently going through his second divorce, contacted me about doing social media for his business. My answer was, Hmm, I need to think about it. A big part of my healing journey has been journaling, writing things down, which helps me clear my head, come to a better perspective, manage my triggers around my ex, better build boundaries and rebuild myself.

So after this request, I wrote out a plan and a list of ideas to come to a sound decision. In the end, I told my ex I was unable to assist him.

[00:09:16] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, thank God. Good move. I don't even like doing business with people I'm friends with, let alone people I've been dying to get away from for a decade.

[00:09:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: I had told my partner about the offer the same day my ex asked me to work with him, but I never told my partner how I arrived at the decision to turn him down.

Little did I know that my partner had found my journal and my writing about all of this. He asked me if there was a discussion between my ex and me about it, and I said no, that I needed to think about it, and that I decided that it wouldn't work. My partner then accused me of lying. I asked what he meant and he said, I asked you if there was a discussion, and you said no to my face.

I said, yes, that's right. I tried to explain the journal, putting aside my annoyance and my hurt that he read in my private writing and tried explaining that it's my way of processing and analyzing. He doesn't believe me and claims that I'm saying that to avoid taking responsibility for lying,

[00:10:06] Jordan Harbinger: meaning for lying about the fact that she didn't discuss this with her ex beyond that initial conversation,

[00:10:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: right.

She says

[00:10:12] Jordan Harbinger: that didn't

[00:10:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: happen. Okay. I tried to explain to him that when my ex first asked me to work together, I had this knee jerk response like, see, you didn't break me completely. I rebuilt myself bigger and better. It was vindication to me to learn that my abuser needed my skills for something. I was so proud of myself that I took my time and didn't just follow my initial response, which was to prove to him that despite the abuse he put me through, I made it.

I grew. I was now a force to be reckoned with, so much so that he was asking me for help. I was so proud that I did what I learned in therapy to write things out, and that I ultimately said, no. Unfortunately my partner didn't see it like that and completely invalidated my feelings about it.

[00:10:51] Jordan Harbinger: Interesting.

So her partner is angry that she was even considering this offer, which I gotta say, given how he treated her, I can understand, but she is looking at this like, I didn't do anything wrong. In fact, I did something. Right.

[00:11:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. She's saying, look at the process I went through to make the right decision here to make a decision that, you know, is thoughtful and, and truly mine.

That's a win for me. That's the win.

[00:11:11] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I get that. But this vindication piece, that's a little trickier for me to understand. I mean, I, I guess I understand why this was nice to hear. The guy who tortured you now needs you. I'm guessing that speaks to a part of her that wants to know that she's valuable, that he's less capable.

Sure. But I can't help but wonder what this guy's motivation really was. I don't want to take the win away from her, but she started this letter by saying that her ex was abusive, emotionally, physically, financially, psychologically, that he's tried to control her in various ways over a decade.

[00:11:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. So is asking her to be his social media marketer part of that game.

[00:11:41] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. You're telling me there's not anyone else out there who can run his freaking Instagram account for his printing business or whatever. Come on, man. It

[00:11:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: does seem curious. I agree.

[00:11:50] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Again, I can understand why this validation was meaningful, but I also think it's important for her to have an accurate read of this situation.

Yeah, it's possible. This guy's going, oh, I need you. I'm hopeless. You're talented. I'm sure she is. I'm not convinced. This is as simple as my abusive ex. Finally admitted that I'm a strong and capable person and he needs me

[00:12:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: to say nothing of the fact that working with him again, to your point, would be a disaster,

[00:12:11] Jordan Harbinger: a disaster man, which I have to imagine is why her partner got so upset about this.

I can also imagine this guy knowing her past hearing this offer from her abusive ex reading her journal, which by the way is not okay. But he did it, whatever, and going, you're talking to this guy again. Are you seriously considering this? I think I would be a little frustrated

[00:12:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: too, to be honest. I think there are some really interesting things happening on both sides of this equation.

I also want to ask, and I ask this without judgment, whether she should even be looking for vindication and validation from her abuser. For sure. And why. And why. Right. Well, I'm guessing that that's part of the trauma and the dynamic with him.

[00:12:48] Jordan Harbinger: So that might be part of what's hard for her partner to understand too.

Like, why are you looking for validation from this guy? Why not from me, from your family, from yourself? He might even be a little threatened by how compelling this invitation was coming from her ex, and that's making it hard for him to appreciate the process that you went through. So

[00:13:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: she goes on. What my partner did next has left me feeling very unheard and extremely unsettled.

Mm. He took my explanation as an excuse. His view is that I'm using the fact that I was in an abusive relationship as an excuse for lying, and it's time that I leave all of this in my past. He believes that anyone who's been abused wouldn't have had to even think about this offer.

[00:13:25] Jordan Harbinger: Uh, well, there you

[00:13:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: go.

And again, I, I get that to some degree, to be honest, I wish that was my natural reaction, but I got there. I just needed to follow my own process. Shouldn't that count for something?

[00:13:37] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Again, I don't think your partner's a hundred percent right here. I think he's missing something important about your process.

It doesn't sound like he's open to hearing it, and I'm starting to gather that he's not understanding how complicated this is for a victim of abuse or for you specifically. I can also understand why he's saying, okay, screw this guy. You fought so hard to be free from him. Why is this even a question?

[00:13:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: I was very hurt.

My partner then told me that it's my choice to be hurt, and that basically me being hurt is irrelevant because I hurt him first by lying. Oh, okay. Okay. Dude. I don't know. This guy suddenly got a little more complicated for me.

[00:14:14] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. You heard me? I was kind of empathizing with this dude. Yeah. Until just now telling her that it's her choice to be hurt when he's accusing her of doing something she didn't do

[00:14:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: and not even trying to appreciate why she handled things the way she did.

Even if he disagrees

[00:14:27] Jordan Harbinger: right. Even if he disagrees. That's a little worrisome, a little bit. He is just making this all about him. Who does? What kind of person does that again? Gabriel? Oh man. Makes it all

[00:14:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: about themselves. There's a word for this. We should write a book about this and geez, teach people about it.

'cause it's, this is a thing. Somebody should make a word for people who make everything all about themselves. It's been over seven weeks since this happened, and I've completely shut him out. Mind you, he shut me out and pushed me away as well.

[00:14:52] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:14:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: I acknowledged that I hurt his feelings by even telling my ex that I had to think about the offer and I own that and I apologized.

He didn't accept that apology because he said it wasn't sincere, because my answer should have been no from the outset. Mm. Wait, what? What do those two things have to do with each other? I'm confused.

[00:15:09] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I'm also confused. I, first of all the answer to what do they have to do with each other? The answer is almost nothing.

He's rejecting her apology, which, by the way, I'm not fully convinced that she owed him at all in the first place, but I do appreciate that she's taking his feelings into account. He's rejecting that apology as insincere because she didn't do the thing he would've wanted her to do from the beginning, which is not what insincere means at all

[00:15:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: before she could have known.

Right. That that's what he would've wanted and therefore would not have needed to apologize to him if she knew that. I'm so confused.

[00:15:41] Jordan Harbinger: Right. You're not confused. This just makes no sense. Okay. Also, she's allowed to consider this offer, even if it's an objectively terrible idea. He's framing that as somehow an affront to him personally.

I get that it impacts him, but it's her life.

[00:15:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: He still refuses to acknowledge that he hurt me too. He hasn't apologized and he's told me that he isn't going to. When I try to talk to him about it, he passively aggressively gives my ex nicknames that he claims. I probably call my ex too, which I don't. Okay, so communication is just totally broken down

[00:16:10] Jordan Harbinger: here.

[00:16:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't feel this situation can be seen from only one perspective. It's quite complicated. Rebuilding after narcissistic abuse. Everyone heals and grows in different ways, and my road has been hard. This is a process that my partner doesn't understand. It seems he also doesn't believe in therapy.

[00:16:27] Jordan Harbinger: Ooh, well that's just very telling.

So this guy does not want to dig into all of this stuff very deeply,

[00:16:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: does he? He just wants to be right. Which might also explain why it's hard for him to empathize with her here, right? I think, and

[00:16:39] Jordan Harbinger: to make room for different perspectives, right? He's just shutting down and going, you screwed up. This is on you.

I don't have to look at anything. Certainly not my own stuff. It's all you. I don't believe in that which, how do you make progress if that's your position?

[00:16:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't know if I can let this go. Having my feelings and validated like this is bringing up a lot of my past trauma. The gaslighting. The steamroll.

I'm standing my ground because I will not apologize for my feelings or my thought process. But I feel so unsettled and annoyed that my partner read my journal and then used it in such a hurtful way. Am I being unreasonable? What do you gents think I can do in this situation? Signed feeling like I've lost it after going through my process.

[00:17:18] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man, there's a lot going on here. We already talked a lot, so let me try to cut to the chase here. First of all, no, you're not being unreasonable. Just gonna address that one right off the bat. Like I said, you're allowed to consider an offer like this, even if it's a risky one. You're allowed to go through whatever process you find helpful to arrive at the right decision for you, which by the way, you absolutely did.

I think working with your ex would've been a disaster and very dangerous and totally unproductive. And the fact that you got there in your own way when your initial instinct was to maybe say yes, I personally, I think that's a huge point in your favor. It confirms that the journaling practice is healthy and productive and gets you to the right decision, at least in this case.

So, you know, well done there. And apart from this specific fight, reading a partner's private journal without their permission is just not okay under any real circumstance. Like, why would you do that? No, that was a violation from the start. Absolutely. And it doesn't even sound like he's acknowledged that.

Honestly. It's one of the things that makes me a little worried about this guy. He didn't say like, I'm sorry, I know I shouldn't have done that, but I did. And now da da. No. He's like, I'm right and you're wrong. And by the way, any opinion of the contrary, I'm just not interested in. So no, you're not the one in the wrong here.

You're not being unreasonable. And I can also make room for the idea that this offer was very disturbing to your partner. He might've felt, I mean, fill in the blank here, disappointed, betrayed, threatened, weirded out by the fact that you were even considering this offer. I have some empathy for that. Some.

What I don't have empathy for is the fact that this guy goes and reads your private journal, sees something he doesn't like, then turns around and says, well, this is all you. I didn't do anything wrong. You made me feel this way. But also I won't accept your apology and move on because it's not sincere.

And the reason I think it's not sincere is because you should have done the thing I wanted you to do beforehand. Like what? I find that incredibly immature, not to mention manipulative, to be honest,

[00:19:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: agreed. And he's not even saying that. He's not going. This offer from your ex makes me feel disappointed and betrayed and threatened and angry, and I'm having a really hard time understanding why you would even consider it.

Like I'm fuming. He's just getting angry, taking it out on his partner, mocking her ex and straight up refusing to repair things with her. So yeah. My question is to what end? Like what is he hoping to accomplish by taking this tack?

[00:19:30] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly, and that's where I start to worry about their relationship a little bit.

I wanna be very careful here. I might be connecting some dots that might or might not exist. I could be totally wrong, but given her history with her ex, some of what her current partner is doing here is setting off some alarm bells for me. I'm not saying he's as bad as the ex. I'm not saying he's abusing our friend here the way the other guy did.

I'm not saying there's absolutely no reason for this guy to be a little upset, but when I hold all these facts together, reading her private journal, weaponizing what he reads against her, taking this offer from her ex extremely personally for whatever reason, and then retaliating against her.

[00:20:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: Refusing to empathize with her, refusing to look at his own response, refusing even to apologize or consider apologizing.

[00:20:12] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. And refusing to accept her apology. Then he ices her out and holds her to these impossible standards,

[00:20:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: expecting her to have somehow read his mind and made a decision that would make him happy from the very start.

[00:20:22] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Which again, largely makes this all about him. I know

[00:20:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: where you're going with it.

I see. Yeah. Wolf. Yeah. It does sound a a bit narcissistic, doesn't it?

[00:20:30] Jordan Harbinger: Am I crazy? This does not sound good to me at all. It sounds It does not. No. Look, the reason I wanna tread lightly here is I'm not saying she's ended up with the exact same partner again, or that she hasn't made a ton of progress since she left her husband.

She clearly has. As evidenced by this very powerful journaling practice and her decision making and yada yada. I get it. And also

[00:20:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: look at how she's responding to him now. Mm-Hmm. He's being quite unfair and manipulative and she's going, I find this invalidating. I find this wrong. I find this hurtful. I'm standing my ground.

You know, I'm not gonna apologize for my feelings or my process for somebody with this background. That is huge.

[00:21:03] Jordan Harbinger: It is huge. And when she said that, I kind of wanted to, you know, give her a little standing applause here. To me, that's a sign of massive growth on her part. So I am not taking any of that away from her by pointing this out.

But we also have to appreciate that she's in a relationship with a another possibly kind of tricky partner. And it does make me wonder if she might be vulnerable to personalities like this.

[00:21:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. Is she maybe overlooking certain qualities in her partners that later become issues like this?

[00:21:28] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Or if she has a tendency to settle into a certain dynamic or a way of being with partners that helps create conflicts like this.

And I'm not blaming her by the way, for this.

[00:21:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, these are all fair questions and these are really important things for her to consider because even if her partner is not a textbook narcissist, even if he has other qualities that are great, she's now seeing aspects of him that she probably didn't know were there.

She's seeing the limits of his empathy, his introspection. She's seeing his rigidity, his lack of curiosity, his lack of nuance. She also seems to be discovering that her partner doesn't take her privacy and kind of her inner world in general very seriously. You

[00:22:04] Jordan Harbinger: framed that really well. That's one of the more concerning things to me.

It's not just that he read her journal, it's just that he's kind of like, I don't care how you make decisions. They have to be the right ones according to what I want you to do. It's

[00:22:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: like, what? Let's remember that what set off this fight was not that she hid the fact that her ex made her this offer.

Mm-Hmm. She came right out and told her partner about that the very same day. What kicked off this fight was learning that she had taken some time to consider it, that she had gone through this private process of her own before coming to a decision in her partner's mind. He assumed that meant that they were having a lot of contact, which apparently was not the case.

So it sounds to me like there's something disturbing and maybe a little bit threatening to this guy about her having an inner world that he doesn't always have access to. Mm. And her own agency that he cannot control. In addition to his anxiety, his honestly, somewhat understandable anxiety that her ex might be claw his way back into her life, into their life.

I mean, reading someone's private journal, like you said, Jordan, not cool. And I can't read that any other way than I needed to know what you were really thinking. And now that I know that I'm gonna use that against you, and I'm also gonna do that in the least charitable way. Right? I can't

[00:23:08] Jordan Harbinger: help but feel that there's something objectively disrespectful and controlling

[00:23:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: about that.

And part of me even wonders like, did she choose to journal about all of this privately? Because on some level she knew he wouldn't be able to tolerate an open conversation about whether to accept the offer. Hmm. Interesting. Again, to your point a moment ago about the dynamic that they might be co-creating is this one way that they might have done that by her hiding her thought process from her partner in order to spare him some difficult feelings, him then intuiting that there was something he didn't know, and then violating her privacy in order to find it.

And then using it to confirm his worst fears. Not only that, her ex might still have some hold over her. Not only that, she might be keeping a secret, but that he himself does not have total access to her true thoughts, which might mean that there are aspects of her that he cannot control. Ooh, fascinating.

Yeah, I could see that. So, yeah, I mean, even if she hasn't fallen into the exact same template she had with her ex, she might want to ask, what are these qualities signal? Did I clock any of them before this blew up? And did I handle things this way? Because on some level I knew that they were there and this was my way of working around them.

[00:24:13] Jordan Harbinger: Right. And has the abuse she experienced with her husband and I imagine formative events long before that, are those also playing a role in her relationship now? So to answer your question, what are you supposed to do here? Well, it's hard because your partner isn't making it very easy for you guys to make progress.

He's dug his heels in. That doesn't allow for much conversation. What I would do is go to him again with the benefit of a little more time and insight and tell him, basically, look, I appreciate why this offer upset you so much. I've done a lot of work to see things from your perspective. I agree with you that working with my ex was a bad idea, which is precisely the conclusion I came to on my own.

And now I'm asking you to see things from my perspective, what I went through with my ex, it left a real mark on me. It impacted my sense of self, my feelings, my ability to take my own thoughts and needs seriously. It also made me eager for vindication and validation from my ex, as weird and irrational as that might sound.

And that's part of the legacy of this abuse, the journaling I do, it's part of my therapy, it's part of my process. It's really important. I needed to sit with this offer and really analyze it in order to know that I was making the right decision here. Not for him, not for you, but for me. And by the way, that's my private journal.

I'm still very hurt and angry that you read it. That is not okay. And I'd like you to acknowledge that and respect my privacy going forward. But more importantly, I'm inviting you to empathize with me here to try to understand why I had to go through this process in my own way in order to say no. I've owned and apologized for my piece of this.

It hurts me to know that I hurt you, but I also feel that I'm not getting the same consideration or curiosity from you in response. That sucks and it concerns me, and it's making it impossible for us to make progress here. So are you open to doing that? Can you make some more room for me here? Can we really talk about this?

So that's basically what I would say to him and how he responds is gonna tell you a whole lot about whether this relationship really works. My hope is that he can hear you and he realizes how hurtful and unproductive his response has been, and he tries again, with more openness and more compassion.

It's also unfortunately, possible that he won't wanna be in this process with you, maybe because it's too complex for him or too vulnerable, at which point you are gonna have to decide whether you can accept that, whether this is the partner you want to be with, given how far you've come. I'm not telling you what to do here.

There are some conversations that need to happen first. So my hope for you is that you take everything you've learned from this situation and use it to assess your relationship and hopefully improve it, although that's gonna require both of you to want to do that. But more importantly, my hope for you is that you stay connected to your own experience here, which you're doing beautifully, by the way.

Your thoughts and your feelings and your process, they matter a great deal and they are worth protecting, and you can do that while you're making room for your partner's feelings and process as well. We're sending you a big hug and wishing you all the best, you know. It's in my journal, some great deals on the fine products and services that support this show.

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[00:29:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay, next up. Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I'm the mom of three kids, the youngest of which is a 16-year-old sophomore in high school. His older sister was pretty introverted and his older brother was in high school during Covid, so the social stuff was pretty limited.

Our youngest is now living his best high school life, gets good grades, and is a talented artist and varsity athlete in two sports. He has a very active social life and most weekends gets invited to get togethers or parties. After a recent party, we discovered that he had had a few beers, which was a first for us in our 25 years of parenting.

While I enjoyed high school and was very social, I was also dealing with an abusive alcoholic father and was raised by atheist parents who were totally checked out. I could literally have been doing anything in high school. I became very interested in religion and explored several through my high school years before eventually settling on Catholicism in college.

Needless to say, I was never a partier and still only drink socially, and we rarely have alcohol at home or in front of our kids. My 47-year-old brother, on the other hand, has been an addict, alcohol and any drug he can get his hands on since he was 14 and was found speeding down a six lane road in our parents' stolen car with his best friend on the roof.

[00:30:35] Jordan Harbinger: Whoa. Holy smokes. Oh wow. I was not expecting that. That That's ridiculous.

[00:30:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: That is insane. And it gets worse. Wow. My brother is now an end stage kidney and liver failure and has been a cautionary tale to all of our kids. We have raised our children as practicing Catholics, and our older two always heated our warnings about underage drinking and never participated until they were in college.

While we have always given them good practical reasons why they should not drink in their teen years, the Trump card we always had was the honor thy parents commandment, which was sort of pervasive in our expectations. In the past four years, several major events have occurred that have led me to deconstruct my faith.

Looking back, I actually wish I had done some experimenting slash boundary pushing in my teens instead of being so focused on being a good girl. I'm now really struggling on how to approach many aspects of parenting since I no longer have the church for guidance and did not have any healthy modeling growing up.

I don't wanna overreact to what I know is very normal, but I'm also fearful of underreacting and creating a clone of my brother. What are your opinions about teens experimenting with alcohol? How do I talk to my son about making healthy and safe choices without shaming him for a normal part of growing up or grounding him for the rest of high school?

What are some guidelines on how to speak with him about the topic and set expectations while also keeping the lines of communication open, allowing him to make mistakes and encouraging honesty, even when we might be disappointed with his choices. What are appropriate expectations and consequences for when we become aware that he has chosen to drink, and how do we educate our son on the line between some normal, moderate experimentation and binge drinking or trying harder drugs?

Signed trying to solve the riddle and finding a healthy middle between being critical and offering acquittal when my youngest wants to tipple.

[00:32:27] Jordan Harbinger: Super interesting and good questions. First of all, I appreciate your attitude here. I love how much you want to guide your son without shaming him or driving him away.

I think that's terrific. More parents should do that. Having a parent who can teach you and correct you when necessary, but still be a safe parent to go to when you need help, that's a gift, and I'm glad your son's gonna have that with you. Second man, I'm sorry to hear about your brother. That is a super tragic story and a cautionary tale for sure, and I actually think his story will be quite useful in these conversations.

Let's come back to that third, this journey you've been on with your faith. There's a lot to say about that, but as it relates to your parenting, I'm not sure that you need any specific framework or set of beliefs in order to be a good parent. What you do need, while people get angry about that last statement, what you do need are strong values, clear intentions, and a healthy and trusting relationship with your child.

Now, there might be some overlap between those qualities and the ideas that say Catholicism or of any other religion might offer. But that doesn't mean you absolutely need to be religious in order to be effective as a parent. And the reason I say this is I hear some confusion and anxiety on your part about how to parent without having the church for guidance, which I can understand.

It's probably easier to point at a specific doctrine or commandment or concept in your religion and say, this is why we don't do that. And here it is in black and white in the New Testament or whatever. And a lot of those ideas are legitimate. But I also think that approach, it has the potential to cut off or bypass some important conversations with your child, for example, about why they're feeling drawn to alcohol in the first place, how it functions in their social environment, how they're developing their own values around this stuff.

Whether they feel safe talking about certain subjects with their parents, what process they're going through around making big decisions like this. It's not that a church's stance on something like alcohol is always wrong. I'm sure there's some value there, but when a parent points to some external system and goes, don't do it because they say it's wrong, I think that has the potential to miss something very important.

I would imagine the best pastors, priests, whatever, religious scholars, they also tell you why instead of just pointing to some something and saying, well, it says here that we don't do that. All that to say, I understand you're feeling a little lost without your faith, but in a way, I think you might be in an even better position to have this conversation because now you can share ideas and approaches and be in a process with your son that A, you really believe in, and B allows for the two of you to be in open and ongoing dialogue about this stuff rather than just, you know, you have to do it this way in order to be a good Catholic, or we don't have to talk about why you shouldn't drink.

Just, you know, honor earth thy parents, which I'm guessing is part of the reason you deconstructed your faith because it kept you in a place of wanting to be a good girl and possibly held you back from exploring and discovering your own identity in a responsible way. So my take on teens experimenting with alcohol, I mean, look, it's available.

They can easily do it. I don't have to worry about this for many more years, thank goodness, but it's on my mind. Ideally, they don't do it until they're a little older, and if they do it, it's minimal, it's responsible, it's rare. We're on total communication about it. Hopefully, I don't think I fall into the never drink, ever, or you're screwed camp of parents.

But I'm also not like, Hey, do whatever you want. It's your life, kid, man. It'll be fine. To your point, this is all about how you help your child make safe and healthy choices. And the way I would do that is by sitting down with him, talking to him about his relationship to alcohol these days, how it functions in his life, sharing your thoughts on alcohol and making a lot of space for him to be open with you about his lifestyle, his friends, his desire to drink at this stage of his life.

So as for appropriate expectations and consequences, I really think that's up to you. I can't tell you how strict you should be with your own kids. If you want a zero tolerance policy with him until he is 21, hey, that's your right. If you want to be like the cool mom who's okay with him drinking a little with some guardrails, I guess that could be legit too.

As long as he's being responsible, just, you know, be careful with that. Obviously the less a teenager drinks alcohol, the better. Ideally, he doesn't drink for a while longer. Although this is kind of an American thing too. I know kids in Europe are drinking wine at dinner with their parents when they're, I think it's like 16 or something like that, beer and wine, and I've read some theories that that leads to less abusive alcohol later on.

I don't know how rigorous that research is, or if it's done by like the European Wine Producers Institute. Right? I don't know. But look, my general stance on this is first of all, being strict with kids. There's obviously a place for that in parenting, especially when they're young. You gotta set those standards and parameters early as they become teenagers, though I think that approach can change.

Being strict. That's a way to enforce behavior you want, because you think your child won't live up to your standards. If you educate your child appropriately early on, if you positively reinforce their good choices and instill solid values in them, and you teach 'em to make good decisions for themselves, then over time you don't really need to be strict because they'll be holding themselves to those standards.

And ideally, that's what you want as a parent, in my opinion anyway.

[00:37:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: But also I think the most important expectation here is that your son stays safe, right? That's what mine would be if I were a parent. So to me that means definitely not binge drinking, not poisoning his body. It means never drinking so much that it gets in the way of his goals, his mood, his plans.

And by the way, I just wanna say that a unique variable in her story is that her son is apparently quite successful, right? As a high schooler. He's in two varsity sports, he's doing well in school. These are all great signs. It's really hard to have a serious drinking problem when you're getting straight A's and you're involved in sports and you're on top of your goals and you have a vision for your future.

So you know, the more that you can encourage and support those plans, the more you keep him engaged with his own life. I. The less likely it is that he's gonna get really lost in alcohol and he might not even literally have time to drink if those are the things that are most important to him. I think being safe also means obviously never driving drunk or driving with someone else who's drunk or being drunk in public in a way that could get him in trouble and ruin his future in some way.

[00:38:19] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, and when you share that with him, that's a moment when you can say, look, if you're ever at a party and you've had a couple beers, call me. I will come pick you up. I will never be mad at you for choosing to not drink and drive, and I will never be mad at you for asking for a ride home if the person who was supposed to drive you home is drinking.

I. All I care about is you come home alive. That is a crucial thing for a child to hear,

[00:38:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: and that's another way that you can signal to your son that you want him to be responsible without, as you put it, shaming him and as for educating him on the difference between, you know, normal experimentation and binge drinking or trying even harder drugs.

I mean, you have a very powerful case study in your brother. His story is so tragic and it might be quite painful to talk about, but I can't think of anything more effective than telling a 16-year-old kid, look at Uncle Rich. You know, look what he did to himself. He's gonna die because he had a wildly unhealthy relationship with drugs and alcohol.

This is what can happen when this gets out control, and it does not take much. And hey, I know this is kind of intense, but maybe you even visit your brother with your son. Show him up close. What the difference between responsible drinking and substance abuse actually looks like. I have to think that that would make quite an impact on him without you having to say too much.

I think I've mentioned this on the show before. My aunt died from alcoholism years ago. Watching her waste away in the hospital when we were kids was a hugely formative event for my sister and me. And I think it's a big reason that neither of us drinks very much now. Kind of not at all. It was all the lecture we needed at a moment in our lives where we were very receptive to that message.

So could be powerful.

[00:39:52] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I remember you talking about that, Gabe. That is, it's so sad. But yeah, it's very effective. I. But even if you don't take your son to see him, the message here is basically, look, as you get a little older, a beer or two at a party, a drink with your friends every once in a while in a safe environment to let loose.

That's one thing I can be okay with that if in fact you are, of course okay with that. Slamming eight beers every Saturday, having a couple drinks, and then partaking in other stuff. That's when things get problematic. That's where it can seriously derail your life. That stuff is not okay.

[00:40:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: Also, feeling like you can only have fun if you're drinking.

Yeah, that's something else I would encourage your son to keep an eye on because that's where a dependence really starts. And maybe you tell him, look, if you ever find that you can't relax or have fun or talk to people without a couple drinks, I want you to stop and go, okay, why do I need to drink in order to have fun?

What is the drinking helping me deal with? You know? And if you want, I would love for you to come to me and we can talk about that together.

[00:40:44] Jordan Harbinger: Agreed. So that's how I'd approach this with your son. 16. Man, it's an interesting age. He's between two stages, so it's hard to know what's okay, what's not okay. But in a year or two, he might be off at college or he might be living somewhere on his own, spending time around plenty of alcohol, and you are not gonna be able to monitor him every second.

So the question I'd be asking myself if I were in your shoes is how do I empower and educate my son to be the kind of person I can trust to take care of himself? Instilling these values and standards starting now in a way that isn't as punitive, but is maybe more meaningful and self-directed. That is everything because yes, you can manage or punish him like a teenager, and there might be a role for that sometimes.

Or you can teach him how to respect and take care of himself like an adult. So be direct with him. Lead with some basic strong values around health and safety and self respect. Make plenty of room for him to be open with you, and you really can't go wrong here. Alright, you can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com.

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[00:42:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: Alright, what's next? Hey guys, A couple years ago, my wife of almost 20 years separated and later divorced me, which was one of the hardest experiences I have ever gone through. There are a few issues that I'm still dealing with from my marriage, but those are very quickly being solved and should be in the rear view mirror by the end of the year.

What's troubling me now is my new girlfriend. She's an amazing person. She has a good job and likes a lot of the same things I like. In short, we click, but I'm struggling with her family. Her mom was injured a number of decades ago and is very limited. Her dad has compensated for this by becoming a hoarder, is possibly narcissistic and does not show any amount of love towards his daughter, which she desperately craves.

My girlfriend makes comments like, I need a partner to help deal with my family stuff, or, there's so much in my life I don't know how to handle it all, or I know my family is a lot better run while you're not married to me. Okay. It's also not uncommon for her and her dad to get into screaming matches over what I would consider small things.

Just yesterday they got into it hard to explain about what, and now they're not speaking in a week or so when her dad needs something, she'll be there for him without any apology from him, which he would never give Anyway. All of this makes me question if I want to continue the relationship. I know that walking away from this relationship might be the right thing for me, but I'm conflicted.

I've been with my girlfriend for three and a half years and she's a good person, but all this drama in her life is really starting to wear on me. I understand that in a relationship you assist with your partner's challenges at times, but this seems unending and if I continue with her, it likely won't end for me.

How do you walk away from a three and a half year relationship signed chafing at this imprisonment and thinking a breakup is probably imminent because her parents' drama is infinite.

[00:44:09] Jordan Harbinger: Fascinating question. Well, first of all, I'm very sorry that your girlfriend has these parents, this dad especially, this is deeply painful stuff.

The fact that he withholds love, she craves it from him, and they fight so often, especially over trivial things. It's just really sad. I. Clearly that's left a real mark on her. Obviously her father sounds like he's got some real issues. I know that hoarding is often caused by anxiety, trauma, OCD, other mental health stuff.

Hard to say what's going on there. Although it's interesting that it all started after his wife got injured. I'm guessing that he's maybe grasping for a sense of control and safety after the accident and hanging onto things, items gives him that control and it sounds like he's carrying a big burden. So he's probably in a lot of pain.

But candidly, he also sounds like a miserable old coot who's treating his daughter like crap, which is not okay either. So yeah, that puts you in a really difficult position to have to constantly support a partner who's suffering because of family stuff, eh, it's a lot to deal with, man. It's gotta be exhausting, stressful, unpleasant, and it probably drives you crazy.

And the worst part, like you said, is it doesn't seem to be getting any better. It's never ending.

[00:45:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's the problem. She's stuck in this very painful dynamic with her father. She's overwhelmed. It sounds like she's not very well equipped to deal with it, and she doesn't know how to change things. If she did know how to change things, this could be absolutely survivable.

[00:45:26] Jordan Harbinger: Right. I also find it fascinating. She's saying all this to our friend here. She's going, I need a partner to help me deal with my parents. I don't know how to handle my life. But then she's also saying like, you better run while you still can. Those are very

[00:45:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: stressful messages to receive. Well, she's both relying on him way too much and also kind of pushing him away, or at least giving him an escape hatch.

Right. It sounds to me like she might be in conflict about how much to rely on her partner. Look, she might be a little ashamed or maybe a lot ashamed about how much she needs his help. What she imagines that he thinks and feels about her as a result. So it sounds to me, based on those details, that she's projecting some of that onto him by saying, you better run while you're not married to me.

Which is really sad, but that probably says a lot about how she feels about herself.

[00:46:11] Jordan Harbinger: Right? Right. But how do you respond to that? He's taken on a lot here and he is having to stand by and watch his girlfriend get hurt over and over by her family and then come home and just bring all of that to him. So I get why he's going.

Uh, I think I need to get outta here. This is a bit much,

[00:46:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: I understand it too. The desire to flee is legitimate and it's meaningful, but what that feeling is trying to tell him, I don't know. I think there might be a few different things going on there. One obvious meaning is that this relationship is just not working for him and he can't handle it anymore.

And look, if that's the case, he's allowed to leave. Fair enough. I. I also wonder how much he's really tried to help his girlfriend find a new way of relating to her family. Has he encouraged her to go to therapy and talk about her father? Has he encouraged her to explore some boundaries that would make her relationship with her father less painful?

[00:46:59] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, unclear from his letter based on what he shared. They haven't really done that.

[00:47:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: It doesn't sound like it. In which case, leaving her feels a little premature to me

[00:47:08] Jordan Harbinger: and kind of unfair to her.

[00:47:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: Again, I get the impulse, the thought of breaking up that might be a fantasy that gives him a measure of relief and control in a situation that I'm guessing feels increasingly unsustainable.

Also, let's remember that he began his letter by talking about his previous marriage, right, which sounded very difficult. He said a lot of those problems are soon to be in the rear view mirror and I'll be done with them. So he might have been accumulating a lot of stress and anxiety, and this might just be like putting him over the top.

So we don't know exactly what role his last relationship is playing in all of this, but it is part of his story and it might be helpful for him to separate out the residual stress and burden of his last relationship from how he's feeling about this one. But if I were him, I would try to help her work through some of this stuff and see if she has any interest in growing before breaking up with her, especially after three and a half years.

I think you owe your partner. At least the opportunity and especially because apparently she's great in all of these other ways.

[00:48:02] Jordan Harbinger: I agree. 'cause if he doesn't, that kind of sucks. Right? Then he is just ditching her for having a shitty family without giving her much of a chance. And yeah, also he might break up with her and then regret it if he realizes that he didn't give her a shot at finding a new way of managing her parents.

But I will say this is her responsibility and not his. It's not all on him to like make her change or something. Agreed. But as her partner, he can and should support her in doing that if she's willing to actually give it a shot.

[00:48:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. And one way to do that would be to sit down with her and say, listen, I know you ended up with a really tough set of parents and that was not your fault.

It sucks. I can see how much pain your dad causes you. I know you don't have the relationship you want from him, and I'm so sorry about that. And it's really hard for me as your partner to watch you continue to be hurt again and again by a guy who does not treat you with the love you deserve. It's also hard to watch you guys fight all the time and then see you go back and help him without resolving anything, and then bring a lot of that hurt and sadness and frustration to me.

I love you. I appreciate you. You are a wonderful person, but I'm gonna be very honest and say that this family stuff is really starting to wear on me. I want to be there for you. I wanna be there for you appropriately, but this now feels like something different. This feels like constantly helping you deal with pain that I think we now know you need to learn how to protect yourself from, because unfortunately, I just don't see this situation with your family, at least with your father changing.

So I think there are a few ways that you could start to work on your relationship with your parents on your side of things. And if you're open to talking about that, I'm here to do that.

[00:49:31] Jordan Harbinger: I like that, Gabe. That's exactly right. I think he needs to go on record as saying, this isn't sustainable or fair to me anymore, but also I'm here to support you again appropriately in finding a new way of managing this situation.

Then it's up to her to decide whether to take you up on that, whether she wants to try things in a new way. Maybe she tells her dad that she won't fight with him anymore and she expects more from him, and if he doesn't treat her better, maybe she decides to have less contact with him or pull back on her responsibilities with him.

Maybe she goes to therapy given what you've shared. I sincerely hope that she does, because I think she's got a lot to work through. Point is she has options here.

[00:50:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: Agreed. And if she pursues those options, I think that would go a long way in helping your relationship. It would also give you more confidence that this is the right relationship for you.

And if she doesn't want to dig into the stuff and make some meaningful progress, then you'll have the last big piece of data you need to know whether breaking up really is the right decision. And you'll probably have a lot less guilt about making that call. So doing this is really for both of you.

[00:50:27] Jordan Harbinger: In the meantime though, I'd sit with the impulse to leave and see what that might be saying about you.

Your girlfriend might be avoiding certain conversations with her parents, but you might also be avoiding certain conversations with her, and that's your work to do. Good luck. You know what you're gonna wanna hoard while driving your future. Son-in-Law Way define products and services that support this show.

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Someone will dig up the code for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show. Now back to feedback Friday.

[00:54:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: Alright, time for our recommendation of the week. So I've always dug cool tattoos on people, but I am way too terrified to ever get a tattoo myself. I just don't, I don't know if I love anything enough to live with it forever.

I'm a coward basically. But when I went to Burning Man, we played around with those temporary tattoos, you know, like when we would go out at night. Mm-Hmm. They were so fun. It was like this funny little playful like dress up kind of thing. We did. There's a way to have fun and be performative without having to commit to anything.

And it's incredibly fun to do for parties, especially with friends. So my recommendation of the week is these high-end temporary tattoos you can get online. Again, it's a way to have fun as an adult and microdose this massive commitment without waking up in 12 years with a terrible Ben Affleck tattoo of a wolf on your forearm or whatever.

Lots of fun. I think you guys might like it too.

[00:54:59] Jordan Harbinger: You know, it's funny that you mention this. I totally agree. I actually just discovered temporary tattoos as well. Now, I mean my, my kids like 'em. I've always known that they exist, but sure. I went to Laos in Vietnam with this group of entrepreneurs and one of the organizers said, okay, we're having a costume party and everyone groans, right?

'cause you're already packing for two weeks in Laos, in Vietnam, and now you gotta bring a freaking costume that you're gonna wear for three hours. So I thought, okay, the ultimate hack is gonna be just order a couple dozen tattoos off of whatever website. Pack those. They pack his flat sheets of course.

And bring those and then I'll have enough leftover for other people too. The party theme was Come as you aren't, and that's a pretty damn cool theme, right? Because it's essentially, what do you mean? Like come as you Michael aren't, or come as you are not. No, yeah, I know. Yeah, come as you are not. Okay. So you know, come as you are is a thing, right?

But this is like, you know, come as sort of the alternate ego. The alter ego that maybe lives inside you or something like that. Ah, the Tyler

[00:55:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: Durden in your heart. Yeah, the Tyler Durin. Got it. Very cool.

[00:55:51] Jordan Harbinger: So I was like, alright, it's hot and Lao so I'm just gonna take my shirt off and put on temporary tattoos speaking of Tyler Durden and walk around Clever with my brand new dad bod six pack hanging around and sort of enjoy it.

And I gotta tell you, man. I've never wanted so many tattoos in my life. I would love if I could just immediately wake up tomorrow with 17 actually cool, tasteful tattoos. But the problem is, yeah, I want them gone in 10 years without painful laser surgery.

[00:56:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. And this is the way to do it. Yeah. I'm gonna include some links to a couple cool sets I found on Amazon in the show notes.

There's one in black, there's one in white. The white is really elegant if you want to class it up a little for a party. I actually really like the white ones and they could be fun to put on your like forehead or your cheek without looking like a, you know, like a SoundCloud rapper or something. Yeah, exactly.

Highly recommend. Exactly.

[00:56:33] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. And if you guys have any wrecks on cooler sets of tattoos, the options on Amazon, they're kind of limited and kind of a mixed bag, right? 'cause it's clearly like designs from China that are made in China. Some are cool, some are really lame. So maybe, who knows, maybe some of you make your own temporary tattoos or something.

If so, I'd love to hear from you because that's definitely a cooler, more fun way to go.

[00:56:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: Alright, next up. Dear Gordon and Ja. Okay, I'm a 45-year-old in the telecommunications industry. The pay is decent. I'm not a millionaire, but earn in the low six figures, which is enough to care for myself and my family.

I'm also a struggling addict who has been through recovery twice in the last four years. I'm now at a crossroads, and I'm scared. Honestly, I'm petrified. In 2020, I was working a job that I truly enjoyed. As a customer trainer for a satellite communications company, I was able to travel the world and interact with a wide variety of people from all walks of life.

This was the first time that I had worked directly with people since I was a team chief in the US Army back in the early two thousands, where I was a supervisor for up to eight people and millions of dollars worth of equipment. I was recognized as the distinguished leadership graduate from the Army Leadership School, and I noticed during my service that I had a natural gift for working and dealing with people.

I still maintain contact with several of my soldiers, and they continuously tell me how much I meant to them and how grateful they were for my leadership.

[00:57:56] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. That's really special, man, and really great feedback for you. It sounds like you're an awesome leader.

[00:58:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: Unfortunately, I was a functional alcoholic.

I never got into any serious trouble with alcohol, no fights, no DUIs, no arrests, but it was clear that I was not healthy and needed to make some drastic changes in my life, so I went to a recovery center in 2020. While there, I noticed that I, again gravitated towards serving people in need. In week two of the six week program, I was approached by some of the staff about staying on as a servant leader, a volunteer who stays on at the facility to help the staff and mentor other addicts in recovery.

I was consistently told by the counselors and other patients that this was what I was supposed to be doing in life. Due to the stories of my rough background and my unusual appearance, I'm able to reach people that others might not be able to. Hmm,

[00:58:46] Jordan Harbinger: that's

[00:58:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: cool.

[00:58:46] Jordan Harbinger: That sounds super rewarding.

[00:58:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: For all those reasons.

I quit my job to volunteer for four months in the hopes of working there full time while working toward my certification to become an addiction counselor. But when my four month volunteer service ended, I was told by the leader of the facility, we just do not have anything for you. I was crushed. I had been gassed up by so many people that I was sure that this was God telling me to move in this direction.

I was ready to make a serious change in my life, and now I was left with nothing. I also know that the rejection was specific to me because they ended up hiring two other people from the same class as me to full-time positions.

[00:59:23] Jordan Harbinger: Hmm, interesting. So this might also be good feedback for you, but let's see where this goes.

[00:59:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: The rejection also hurt on a personal level because I had elevated the director of the center to almost a father-like position, because mine had abandoned me as a child. Okay. There was a lot going on in this volunteer position. A lot. Yeah. So he goes on, I eventually got a new job in my field, but sadly ended up relapsing a few months later.

The loss of this new life, these old feelings of abandonment and isolation due to covid were too much for me to bear. Two years after my first stint, I went to a different recovery facility. After the first two weeks of detoxing and adjusting mentally, I started getting that same feeling again. Clients were coming to me for advice, guidance, or just to talk.

Staff members noticed this and told me that I had something of value to offer others. This program was 12 weeks long, and around four weeks in, I started making it known to the leadership that I wanted to pursue this path. I spoke regularly with the CEO of the organization who would consistently tell me, man, we cannot wait to get you here.

And hey man, when are we gonna make this happen? With many hugs and handshakes and other positive affirmations. I was asked to develop two classes on recovery by the end of the week and delivered four. Within two days, I was talking to most of the staff, and it seemed to me that I was destined to be there.

After my program, which included four weeks of aftercare where I stayed on as a volunteer, I made it clear to the CEO that I couldn't quit my full-time job. But since this location was right on my way to and from work, I would volunteer as often as they needed, so long as I could remain in the recovery community.

I felt a strong sense of direction again, I felt fulfilled and complete. Then the facility attempted to run my insurance again for four more weeks of aftercare, which was denied as it wasn't a medical necessity. Two days later, I was discharged from the program by the one guy on staff I wasn't talking to who ended up being the decision maker.

[01:01:20] Jordan Harbinger: Uh, what a blow. This guy just keeps on getting pumped up and then cut down.

[01:01:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: When I asked that guy about leadership roles, I was told, yeah, that's really only for people that can be here full time, and was essentially shown the door. I attempted several times to reach out to the CEO and was met with very brief responses, if any at all.

It was clear to me that I was lied to about any potential to be involved once they were done collecting money from my insurance company.

[01:01:45] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. If that's true, that sucks. I wonder if there's more to the story there, but man, if dangling job opportunities in front of addicts is just a way to keep them on the tap, that is deeply messed up and highly unethical.

[01:01:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: I agree. Very concerning. But also the first time he was turned down, that did seem to be unique to him. It wasn't about money. Right, right. It's hard to know

[01:02:04] Jordan Harbinger: what conclusion to draw from this pattern. Yeah. If it is a pattern, right. It's happened twice, which is enough for me to go, okay, something seems to be happening here.

Let's look at this. But also it could just be bad luck.

[01:02:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: Now I'm back in the communications industry and I am miserable. I battle daily with depression, and though I'm not a hundred percent sober, I have some beer here and there. I'm not at the level I was before going to recovery, nor do I plan on being back in that dark place.

Ooh boy. Candidly,

[01:02:34] Jordan Harbinger: this makes me nervous. There's no negotiating with recovery. I admire your discipline, your confidence. I really do. But I'm a little concerned that you're not totally on the wagon,

[01:02:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: especially when his life purpose seems to be helping people in, in recovery. We gotta come back to this.

Mm-Hmm. So he goes on. I know that I'm supposed to be doing something different with my life. I know that I'm supposed to be serving God by serving others. I know that I have a gift when it comes to interacting with those in pain and in need of help. At the end of my workday, I feel completely unfulfilled.

I would much rather know that I was able to help just one person, even if the pay were considerably less. My goal is to open a recovery facility co-located with an animal rescue. I love dogs, and I know that when an addict has something else to care for, something else to live for recovery is much more successful.

I dream of a facility where someone can come and fight off their addiction while also helping rescue animals. I love it.

[01:03:28] Jordan Harbinger: That's a beautiful dream. That is, this is touching,

[01:03:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: but then I'm so scared to step away from this industry for a third attempt to enter the recovery field. The thought of not being able to make my rent or pay my bills keeps me up at night and often in tears during the day.

I know this is not where I belong, but I feel that I've been let down two different times by those that I thought were my path into this field. I do not know if I can tackle this mountain on my own, but I've been on my own since I was 16 and have never had to ask anyone for help. How can I go about getting my foot in the community again so I can start really making a difference in people's lives?

Am I overthinking this? Should I just toss the cow shit in the wind and let the chips fall where they may? What advice can you offer? Someone in my position signed trying to not get flattened by dealing with these dragons as I wait for my best life to happen while I'm on, or at least around the wagon.

[01:04:22] Jordan Harbinger: Whew. Okay. Well, this is quite a story, man, and I appreciate you sharing so much with us. I really love your vulnerability. I know that vulnerability could serve you well, both in your own recovery, which I wanna talk about, and also in helping other addicts. There is a lot going on in your letter and we don't have a ton of time left, so I'm gonna try to cut to the chase as best as I've ever done that.

First off, no, you are not overthinking this and no, I would not just toss cow shit in the wind and let the chips fall where they may when it comes to your financial situation. Also, I've never heard the phrase toss cow shit in the wind before. That made me laugh. Did you make that up or is that some idiom I've never heard before, Gabe.

I don't know.

[01:04:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: I've never heard of it either, but actually now that I look at it, I think he might have been trying to say, throw caution to the wind and it came out as cow shit to the wind.

[01:05:04] Jordan Harbinger: I see. That's what happens when you voice to text your feedback Friday emails. That's hilarious. Well, regardless, no, I would not throw caution nor cow shit or anything really into the wind.

I know how powerful having a purpose is. I know how much it sucks to feel like you're not living a life that's meaningful, that's authentic. I, I hear how unhappy you are, and believe me, I get it, but you also can't compromise yourself financially by recklessly chasing your purpose without a plan for how to take care of yourself.

That could put you in a very stressful position. It could exacerbate a lot of the difficult feelings that you're wrestling with it. It might even make it more tempting to drink. I also think it could kind of infect this beautiful mission of yours. 'cause if you rush into recovery work without a way to take care of yourself, you might put a lot of pressure on that new career to take care of you.

I'm gonna go ahead and guess that it's not super lucrative, at least not at first, and it might end up souring you on the work or making it unsustainable. Whereas if you found a way to keep a roof over your head and pay the bills while you took some steps towards this calling, I have a feeling you'd be able to engage with it in a very pure way.

You'd be able to enjoy it because you truly love it and not allow money to get too wrapped up in this calling from the jump. The distress you're in about money. I know that feels like a huge sign that something isn't aligned in your life, and I agree with you, but you also wouldn't feel that distress of taking care of yourself financially weren't really important.

[01:06:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: Agreed. To me. This is a sign that you need to be responsible while you're also courageous and it is not either or.

[01:06:28] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. So my strong advice advices, you need to find a way to support yourself and engage in the recovery field. Maybe that means keeping your job and volunteering at a recovery center nights and weekends.

Maybe it means getting a new job that's less demanding or a job that's part-time, or a job that's closer to the recovery world in some way, and using it as a transition to support your recovery work. Maybe it means staying at your job, but making more peace with it. Not thinking of it as abandoning your calling, but as a way to support your calling until you can make enough income from the work that really matters, which by the way.

That isn't just a cute story. I really do believe that. I don't think Einstein felt like he was living inauthentically by working in the patent office. You know, he was holding down a job he needed to be able to do the work he cared about, and he did that work.

[01:07:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: You know, that's also a really interesting example because working as a patent examiner, that was a smart day job to have as a physicist.

I think I remember reading that being exposed to all his patents actually helped Einstein develop his own ideas and think more creatively or something like that. So that's a good case study in potentially looking for work that's near the field you care about, even if it's not exactly the work that you dream of doing.

Exactly.

[01:07:30] Jordan Harbinger: I mean, how many aspiring writers work as baristas? You know, you can either sling lattes all day miserable and bitter that it's not your calling, or you can say thank you for this job that allows me to go home and write. Now about stepping back into the recovery community again, actually moving closer to your calling.

I think there's something more important we gotta talk about first, his recovery, right? Yeah. Like I said, I'm pretty worried about this. Yeah, I know. He said he's, I have a couple beers here and there. I know he said he'd never gotten any serious trouble with alcohol. No fights, no DUIs, no arrests. Maybe his dependency wasn't too severe,

[01:08:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: but he also said that it was clear that he wasn't healthy and he needed to make some drastic changes in his life.

[01:08:08] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. And by the way, just because you didn't get into a fight or drive drunk or get arrested, doesn't mean you didn't have a problem. It might just mean you weren't aggressive or reckless, or you were lucky enough not to be busted by the cops. But more to the point, you've relapsed twice. Now, I know everyone's on their own journey.

I understand that some people can find their own paths to sobriety. Maybe you're one of those people who's learned how to keep this in check on his own. But candidly, man, and I say this with love, I am not convinced that you are one of those people. You have a problem with alcohol by your own admission, and that doesn't just go away.

You might be keeping it in line right now, but that doesn't mean that you've addressed your addiction or the roots of your addiction,

[01:08:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: which, you know, I think might include this father wound he mentioned. Mm-hmm. This sense of abandonment, the fact that he's been on his own since he was 16 years old, which is heartbreaking.

These core wounds are profound, and they might be driving a lot of this guy's story in ways that he might not fully realize. Not just the pain of being rejected by these recovery centers and that CEO in particular, but also the depression that he's experiencing these days. The struggle he feels in reaching out and asking for help.

Even the ambivalence about pursuing his purpose in the first place. I'm speculating a little bit here and I'm maybe glossing over some things, but I do wonder if that might be the real problem that alcohol has seemed like the solution for.

[01:09:29] Jordan Harbinger: I think so. Gabe, it's so interesting. He's remarkably self-aware about his patterns, his tender spots, his conflicts.

mm-Hmm. But I don't know if he's going all the way and asking himself how his ongoing relationship with alcohol might be serving to cope with those things. Right. And then in turn making it really hard to heal them. Yes. And the reason he needs to dig into this first is I just don't understand how he thinks he's gonna be a truly helpful guide to other addicts if he's casually tossing back Coronas a couple times a week.

I have a lot of compassion for this guy. I really do. He is been through a lot, but again, if I'm being totally honest here, I find his flexible relationship with recovery rather hypocritical and lacking in integrity, frankly, and it kind of antithetical to the whole premise of recovery.

[01:10:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: I might go a step further and very respectfully say that I find it a little presumptuous of him to want to coach other addicts when he is not 100% sober himself.

I hear in his letter that he has a lot to offer other people in recovery, and I believe him that he's a natural leader, that people respond to him, they respond to his story. It is so beautiful, but I think he needs to pause and ask himself why he's chasing this path so hard if he isn't fully walking that path himself.

Is he putting the cart before the horse here? My strong feeling is yes. Is it possible that ministering to other addicts is in part a way for him to potentially bypass aspects of his own recovery?

[01:10:52] Jordan Harbinger: This is so interesting. This parallel is so interesting. When I was doing the dating coach thing, there were so many guys who would walk in on like day one of the bootcamp or the beginning of their journey and you'd ask 'em what their goals are and tons of them wanted to be coaches.

They're like, how do I get to a coaching role? How do I, and I, I was so confused by this. It's funny 'cause I also kinda went through that in an initial stage, I guess. But then I was shocked by how many people had the same desire. And I would ask him why. And some of it was like, oh, look, all these people look up to you.

It feels good. So there's status, but I also think that you kind of get to say, I've arrived, I'm healed. I have a little bit of power over this problem because I am in a role of a teacher. And it just feels good because you go, oh, of course I'm, I've done the work. Look at me. I'm the one who's teaching the class.

[01:11:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-Hmm. And what role does that desire play in that person's personality? It's, it's very interesting. So yeah, I think we have to ask the question, is there something attractive to our friend here about being the guy who can help other people stay sober, the guy who's powerful and inspiring and kind of essential when he's struggling to stay sober himself.

I know those are intense questions to ponder. Maybe they feel a little bit leading, but I'm with you, Jordan. Something is not quite right here. The dream of his to build the center that offers addiction treatment and animal therapy is amazing. But how can the guy running that center running group therapy sessions, for example, coaching addicts, how can that guy who has a history of substance abuse not be sober?

That does not feel right to me. And I wonder if on some level that doesn't feel right to him either. And maybe that's why he's tied up in knots these days. Not just because you know, he's working a job that he doesn't care about, that's not aligned with his purpose. But because on some level he knows that he still has work to do on himself before this path truly becomes doable.

To say nothing of the fact that continuing to drink might be making all of these feelings and decisions even harder to work through.

[01:12:50] Jordan Harbinger: A hundred percent. And I have to ask, and I recognize, I'm speculating here, I cannot know this for sure. But is this a quality that the first treatment center also noticed and went?

Uh, I don't know if this is our guy. I don't know if he's ready. I'm not saying they necessarily went, oh, this guy's gonna fall off the wagon, or he's not ready. But this aspect of his personality might have come through in certain ways or popped up in a few different situations or moments or just his overall way of being, and that might have sent a signal that he had no idea he was sending.

Again, we cannot know this for sure, it's just a theory, but my point here is I think there's something meaningful for him to know about the feedback that he got, assuming, of course, that it wasn't all just a scam to run his insurance for more money.

[01:13:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I think it's a very fair question and it's absolutely up to him to decide what the answer is, what he believes is true.

But to me it doesn't really matter. If he doesn't plan on being back in that dark place as he put it. I think he already is back in that dark place, or at least a dark place as long as he is not living his life fully in alignment with his supposed purpose, which means living his life fully in alignment with sobriety.

I do wanna clarify one thing. I'm not saying that this purpose of yours is misguided or that it's not actually your path. I do not think that you're being disingenuous or deluded about how much this recovery path means to you. Your struggle with alcohol. It informs this calling of yours in a really important way.

It's like a priest who wrestles with his faith, and that makes his role even more meaningful. Right? Or a therapist who's drawn to helping people because of her own trauma, right? This does not disqualify you from this meaningful work. I think it actually qualifies you even more,

[01:14:23] Jordan Harbinger: right? But if that priest is secretly sleeping with women, or the therapist isn't addressing their own wounds, that's a different story.

[01:14:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's right. The question is, what relationship do you have with those wounds? How are you engaging with these challenges? So my strong feeling, I don't mean to be at a dead horse, it's just so fascinating what this guy's dealing with. My strong feeling is that he needs to look at all of his motivations for wanting to pursue this work at this moment, especially given that he's not fully walking the walk.

[01:14:45] Jordan Harbinger: The other thing that's complicated about this is he's been burned by two different recovery centers, and I can appreciate why that's left a bad taste in his mouth, and I can understand why it's left him wary of the recovery world. Like I said, the first center that turned him down and then hired two other people, they might've been responding to certain qualities in him.

I think that's at least useful for him to be aware of them. The second center though, that really does sound like a money thing. And like I said, that is super gross and hurtful and unfortunately it doesn't surprise me in the least here in the United States with our privatized kind of rehab thing, our healthcare system is so broken.

So much of it is driven by profit. And I've heard tons of stories about shady practices at rehab centers not being certified. I mean, just the list goes on and on. So that might not have been about him per se,

[01:15:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: but I can absolutely understand why that's probably made it even scarier for him to open himself up to help again,

[01:15:33] Jordan Harbinger: for sure.

And who knows, maybe continuing to drink a little bit. Maybe that's even a little like screw you to the recovery world on some level, a form of protest in a way. Like, okay, you guys don't actually care about me. I'm not gonna play by your rules. I'm gonna do this my way.

[01:15:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: That is such an interesting theory.

That could be, but to really trace this back and, and just hopefully connect up all these dots really quickly. I think we're hearing from a guy who has some unaddressed trauma, some very real wounds, as we all do. He's a terrific leader, a generous human being, apparently a very compelling role model, and he has some stuff to work through.

The alcohol probably a way of dealing with that trauma, but the trauma is also making his relationship with the recovery world even more fraught. So in many ways, I do wonder if this goes back to his father, and I know that that's like the obvious Freud take here, but remember he put that director of that first center up on a pedestal.

He became a kind of surrogate father to him because his dad abandoned him as a child, and that made that rejection so much more painful, right? He wasn't just turned down by a place he was excited about. He was kind of pushed out, rejected by a guy who felt like dad and a place that probably felt like home and who knows?

Maybe the way he related to that director and maybe other people at the center, the people he chose to talk to, and maybe that one guy he didn't talk to, maybe that contributed to their decision. I say that not to make him paranoid or to blame him because it does sound like they also loved him and they, he did phenomenal work there, right?

Clearly. But who knows? Maybe he came off as a little intense or a little clingy, or a little presumptuous, or who knows? Maybe they had an intuitive sense, to your point, Jordan, that he just wasn't the right fit for them. It's also possible that those people just did not value and appreciate him, and that is on them.

But then there's the fact that he's been on his own from such a young age, which is another very important data point. He doesn't have a lot of experience asking for help, and what that tells me is that he's probably extremely self-sufficient. It's a hallmark of leadership that can also become a fatal flaw.

And it's probably very uncomfortable for him to say, I need help. And those are really two sides of the same coin,

[01:17:34] Jordan Harbinger: right? It's hard for him to be vulnerable, and I'm

[01:17:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: sure that relates to his dad too. But being vulnerable in that way is essential. It's essential in recovery. It's essential in therapy, and it sounds very essential in helping other addicts.

And look, he is being very vulnerable with us. I wanna give him so much credit for that. He has a gift for reaching other addicts. He has a gift for moving people with his story, and he's being very open with us. In these two relationships, the one that he has with other addicts who need help, and the one that he's having with us right now, two strangers on a podcast.

He might be able to be vulnerable on certain convenient terms, either by being the guy who inspires and leads, which might put him in a position of superiority. Or by being the guy who gets to be anonymous and a little distant, which might put him in a position of safety.

[01:18:20] Jordan Harbinger: Uh, yeah. As opposed to the guy who was to go back to the staff at a rehab center where he's been burned a couple of times and say, I need help.

Yes. I need help as a patient. Exactly. It's a really good point. It's something I think he needs to sit with, so, wow. Okay. We spent way more time on this than I thought we would, but it's such a rich story. I hope this gives you some new angles, man. Sometimes when you feel stuck or stymied, it's because you still have some work to do exactly where you are.

And then when you do that work, you start to find that the doors open in a new way. For example, if you find a treatment center that works in an ethical way that values you, that really helps you and you open yourself up to that help while you hold down this job, that might create some excellent opportunities in the recovery world.

If you get and stay sober, that might put you in a head space to pursue those opportunities in a way that's financially sustainable to you. It isn't magical thinking. It's real stuff. So take care of yourself, man. Open yourself up to the people and places that you need to get healthy. Get as solid as you can in every way first.

Then see where you can take this purpose and talent of yours. I have a feeling you could make a big impact on people, man. I feel very strongly that this journey you're so passionate about it really has to begin at home, and we're rooting for you, dude. Good luck. Go back and check out our Ryan Holiday episode and our Skeptical Sunday on traditional Chinese medicine.

If you haven't done so yet, the best things that have happened in my life in business have come through my network, the circle of people that I know, like, and trust, and I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself in our six minute networking course. It's free. You hear about it on the show all the time.

It's not schmoozy. It's on the Think If Platform over@sixminutenetworking.com. These drills just take a few minutes a day. It's stuff I wish I knew 20 years ago. You gotta dig that well before you get thirsty, folks, build those relationships before you need them. You can find it all again for free. It's six minute networking.com.

Show notes and transcripts on the website, advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show, all at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn Gabe's over on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast one.

My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogger. Of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I am a lawyer, but I am not your lawyer. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love.

And if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.

If you're looking for another episode of the Jordan Harbinger Show to check out, I wanted to give you a preview of my conversation with the legendary Dennis Quaid. We got into rejection, both in Hollywood and outside, and how he brings his characters to life on screen. This is really a fun episode. I think you're gonna dig it.

[01:21:05] Clip: I didn't know at the time if I wanted to be an actor that was back during the time where I wanted to be a veterinarian and uh, or a forest ranger. Forest a ranger. You'd be fighting fires right now? Yes, I would. I'm evacuated from my house right now. Are you

[01:21:18] Jordan Harbinger: really? Mm-Hmm? I saw the smoke when I flew in this morning and our flight originally was canceled and I was like, you gotta get me to la.

We got Dennis Quaid coming here. I can't stand him up for this bullshit fire. Huh. You use a lot of different accents in many of your films. I'm curious how you learn and practice those. My brother and

[01:21:33] Clip: I grew up doing impersonations, like Ed Sullivan and John Wayne and, uh, you know, everybody that was around us.

So I pick up on accents badly. Even, you know, like in India I would be talking, oh man, is

[01:21:48] Jordan Harbinger: this the way? Are you the guy that hears one on TV and then spends the rest of the week annoying everybody in the house? I preparing secret. So like you're in the shower going.

[01:21:57] Clip: One more Janine. One more Janine. I got dinner the cold captain.

[01:22:03] Jordan Harbinger: That one's awesome. That's definitely good. There's a reason you get paid the big bucks for these, and I don't, that's for sure. I know music's a big part of your life. You wrote a few songs for three of your films. Been in a band for like 20 years.

[01:22:15] Clip: Same guys. Same guys. Uh, for 19 years. This Halloween, like Right.

Oh, happy Band anniversary.

[01:22:22] Jordan Harbinger: Well, that's really good. I like that. You can steal that. I definitely think I just made that up just now. Really? Yeah. I've never heard. I've also never heard. Wow. It just came out.

[01:22:31] Clip: Yeah. See what happens when you relax. Is it true that

[01:22:33] Jordan Harbinger: you play

[01:22:34] Clip: with your band in bare feet? Yes. When we first started out, the Beastie Boys, they don't wear shirts.

I won't wear shoes

[01:22:42] Jordan Harbinger: for more with Dennis Quaid, including how he uses fear to stay motivated. Check out episode 2 7 9 right here on the Jordan Harbinger Show.