1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism

1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism

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[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Coming up next on The Jordan Harbinger Show.

[00:00:03] Ryan Holiday: How do you think it makes Alexander the great feel that Alexandria is still a city with hundreds of thousands of people in and he founded that city? It doesn't mean anything to him. You know what? Good it does them to be remembered? Zero. They're fucking dead.

[00:00:19] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On the Jordan Harbinger Show. We decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker through long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers and performers, even the occasional gold smuggler, real life pirate or music mogul.

And if you're new to the show or you wanna tell your friends about the show, I suggest our episode starter packs. These are collections of our favorite episodes on topics like persuasion and negotiation, psychology, geopolitics, disinformation, China, North Korea, crime, and cults and more. That'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show.

Just visit Jordan harbinger.com/start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started. Actually, he interviewed me right after I interviewed him, and it was such a natural extension of our conversation, and it's almost a sequel. Or maybe it was a prequel, memory's a little fuzzy of our other conversations.

So if you like conversations with Ryan Holiday and you like conversations with me, which theoretically you kind of must, if you listen to this podcast, you're gonna like this episode as well. We talk about integrity, comparison, misinformation, parenting, and a whole lot more. Really, it's just another conversation with a very smart guy.

And Ryan Holiday was there too. No, uh uh by the way, also, the, the dead jokes never quit. People, uh, my kids are young, get ready for decades of this. Also, I've got a little cold right now, as you can tell, that is not present in the episode. So if you find this kind of like nasally voice that I have right now, a little bit annoying fear not, the rest of the conversation was recorded months ago when my voice was actually in decent condition.

Alright, here we go with Ryan Holiday.

It's funny, I haven't used my iPad in such a long time because my kids took it over, essentially. Yeah. Yeah. And my wife was like, do you want me to wipe it off? And I was like, you know what? Nah. Let the stuff stick all over it because. Then when I'm using it, I'll be like, oh, I miss my family and I'm with my kids.

There's like cheerio mark on the space bar. There's a key missing. That's hilarious. And it, it's humbling, man, because you're like, this is where daddy creates his masterpieces and they're like, look, I pride a key off with the fork. And you're like, uh, cool. Thanks. Was it you who told me that one of your kids picked up one of your books and was like, look, the daily butt hole or something like that?

Ah, yeah.

[00:02:33] Ryan Holiday: That's in the afterward of this book. Oh, it is. That's what my son said. That's right. The other day. That's where I heard that the other day. He goes, dad, what do you think the worst book in the bookstore is besides your, I mean, beside yours, I. Okay. That was good. Yeah, I respect that. Yeah.

[00:02:47] Jordan Harbinger: Shots fired man.

How old was the kid who said that?

[00:02:50] Ryan Holiday: This was like eight months ago. It was not like, so, so what,

[00:02:53] Jordan Harbinger: because the thing is you, you think about like, was that actually a joke or was he, does he just really regard my work as the crappiest thing in the whole story?

[00:02:59] Ryan Holiday: I think they're, they like bullying me. I think they're, they're like testing and trying to see like how they can burn me for stuff.

Yeah. They're, it's, I go back and forth between both being hurt by it and finding it Hilarious.

[00:03:11] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. It seems like you shouldn't find it hurtful 'cause you are their fo like they don't mean it mean it. Yes. It's probably a mark of social intelligence. Yes. That they are trying to rip you down to shreds.

[00:03:21] Ryan Holiday: Well, yeah, there. And the idea that he would like, ask it in such a way that would like, get me, like, he had me interested in the question just to like stick the knife in, you know, like, I, I respect, I respect that level and, and then it was like. You know, the books paid for this house, man, let's, uh, let's chill out.

You know, hadn't thought that far ahead. Yeah. Um, you know that

[00:03:42] Jordan Harbinger: I, I think it's quite funny. Like, my son, he's at the point where he is like, making a mess is funny. Which I, that's not, yeah. The humor I can share in. 'cause I'm like, I've gotta clean all this crap up. Yeah. But he will often ask a question that's so innocent, but so harsh.

Like, just so brutal. Like a brutal observation. Yeah. That's framed in a way. It's all I can do to resist being like, go ask mommy that question. 'cause I'm like, okay, is this gonna hurt her feelings? I don't wanna do that. But I feel like she, she should share in this particular. Bit of misery in a way. Yes.

[00:04:12] Ryan Holiday: Yeah. I, I tend to get the brunt of it, but I think that's like a two boys girl, mom, whatever. That's the dynamic in her house. I, I get the most of it.

[00:04:20] Jordan Harbinger: My dad gets the most of it. He'd like, grandpa stinks. And he is like, you stink. So it turns immediately turns my dad into a six-year-old child. Yeah. Which is not, maybe not the best thing for, no, it's the best, but it, it's like, you stink.

And he's like, well, I'm not playing with you, grandpa. And he said, well, I'm not playing with you. And it's, it's really, it's funny, but other times I'm like, can you guys, can we not do this right now? It's really funny to watch your, your parents turn into kids. Yes. While your kids are also being kids. And I'm like, I'm parenting both of you.

I have to cook my kids something that he'll eat, right? Yeah. And then my dad's like, I don't want this. I want pizza. I'm like, can you. Maybe behave like an adult for a second. Right. You're 80, 80 years old for God's sake. That's amazing. You've been on the show so many times. How many, you know, that's a good pop quiz.

I bet it's like five times. I bet it's way more than five. You might be right if you count my old show and the show. Yes. It's probably like, yeah, you might me twice that.

[00:05:12] Ryan Holiday: Well, I, I think you were one of the first podcasts that I ever did. Yeah. We've known each other at least 12 years, I think. That sounds right.

Yeah. That's crazy.

[00:05:19] Jordan Harbinger: When, when was your first 2012.

[00:05:21] Ryan Holiday: Okay,

[00:05:22] Jordan Harbinger: that makes sense. 'cause you were on for that. Yeah. July of 2012 is when my first book came out. I remember one of the times was quite funny. Afterwards you go, wow, that was like a real interview. And I was like, what do you, what do, what do you mean? And he is like, well, you know, you might wanna consider videotaping these.

And I was like, oh, that's a good idea. I never thought about that. Interesting. So I was doing 'em in Skype. Yeah. And he is like, you should do some sort of video. And I was like, oh, Skype video really stinks though. Is like, and you're like, yeah, but then you can see the person. I thought that was a quite a nice compliment.

It was like a real interview. I was like, oh, what are you normally dealing with?

[00:05:50] Ryan Holiday: You know?

[00:05:51] Jordan Harbinger: Do you remember

[00:05:51] Ryan Holiday: one time you were interviewing me and someone like broke into my office? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you,

[00:05:56] Jordan Harbinger: uh, to quote you, if I may, he said, get the fuck outta here. And it was like, I'm just asking if I can landscape your, but I'm like, you're like, this is, you just went into like an open, I don't know, it was an open window or what I

[00:06:10] Ryan Holiday: mean was I didn't just scream.

No, that's what we were doing an interview and it was remote. This is like the middle of the pandemic.

[00:06:16] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:06:16] Ryan Holiday: We just set up in this space and someone was like knocking on the door and I ignored it 'cause I was in the middle of something. Yeah. And my office was, this is weird. I was doing it upstairs. I heard them knock a couple more times and I ignored it.

At some point you're supposed to go away when no one answers. Right. And then I hear them like, enter the building. My God. Which was not an open facility. I mean it's like it was not, uh, everything was closed. It was the middle of the pandemic. Yeah. And not even the mill. Very early in the pandemic. I remember correctly.

I hear what I think is someone stomping around. I hear enough. I'm like, okay. Yeah. They entered the building. I look down, I see a landscaping truck. Which I did not have landscapers. Yeah. You don't have a lawn. Yeah. Yeah. That's the weirdest thing about this. Yeah. There's no, I, I'm like, Hey, can you hold on a second?

It's still recording. Yeah. So I was like, hello. And, you know, then they're like, Hey, I'm the landscaper. And I go, what?

[00:07:07] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. It doesn't check. I ke I, I've thought about that so many times since that happened. 'cause it was so weird. Yeah. Now I'm like, was that guy casing vacant property to steal stuff?

Because you don't have a lawn? I

[00:07:17] Ryan Holiday: think so. Yeah. I think so. I mean, there's like some weeds and stuff maybe. Yeah. But, but I was like, yeah. I think that's what was happening. Yeah. And that he thought it was, I was not, no one was there. And then when I answered, he kind of made up this flimsy excuse. Right.

Something about it. I was like, you know what? Like, get the fuck. So what? Because at some point, like we're separated by a, we can't see each other and I don't know. Who this person is or what they brought. Like, so I was, I was like, you know what, I'm gonna overreact here to make this go away. Yeah. They did stomp away, but it was so, plus it was, we were like, well into an interview.

Yeah. So I was, there was no one else here. So someone else usually would've run interference, but I don't know. But you, but like when you get into something, it's like when you go to the movies Mm-Hmm. And then you leave and it's like gotten dark out. Yeah. You're like, I was oblivious to the outside world.

Sure. So I was in that space and then there's just like someone stomping around it. Very strange. Yeah. It's very strange. Yeah. I think about that all the time. At first

[00:08:12] Jordan Harbinger: I thought like, gosh, this guy's really going into extra lengths, but I, who walks into a vacant building in Texas Yeah. That has clearly got stuff in it.

Like, that seems like a really good way to, for

[00:08:19] Ryan Holiday: unsolicited landscaping work. Right. On a commercial building. It was, yeah, you're right. That's, uh, probably what was,

[00:08:25] Jordan Harbinger: yeah. So that, that's kind of funny. So of course I'm reminded of that consistently when something weird like that ever happens, I have to say, like, it's fun to be here at the painted porch doing this and this like hallowed studio where you destroyed all these books.

I know you kind of revere the, the book is, was it weird? Just, I mean, none of those are ever gonna be able to get read again. So

[00:08:43] Ryan Holiday: one, I emailed my publisher, I was like, okay, I've been building out a studio. So I was like, please send me a couple copies of all of your books. Oh, interesting. So they'll be in the shot.

So like, especially behind you, there's a lot of portfolio books there, I think somewhere here. And then there were books, like I had more than One copy, or I didn't like the book or somebody sent me the galley. And then a copy and then the publicist. I see. And then some of 'em are foreign translations of my books, which is this weird thing that's

[00:09:08] Jordan Harbinger: cool

[00:09:08] Ryan Holiday: where you, you write a book and then they're like, and here's 15 Mandarin copies.

And you're like, what am I gonna do with these? Yeah. I feel I can't throw it away, but I don't know 15 people that wanna, like, I don't. Right. Not only do I not know 15 people who speak Mandarin, I don't know 15 people who would like a book for me in Mandarin, so. Oh yeah. It's a subset of a subset. Yeah. Yeah, that's right.

So I have a bunch of those. And then the rest, there's a company called Book by the Foot. And they sell books for movie sets. Oh nice. And art projects and whatever. So we calculated, after we took all the ones we had, we were like, okay, we need 20 linear feet of books or whatever. And then they just mail 'em to you.

[00:09:45] Jordan Harbinger: That's pretty cool. I wondered how you cut the edge piece. So for people that are not watching this Yeah. This is a studio where the whole wall is stacks of books. Yes. Glued to the wall and glued to each other and it looks really good. Did you go in the store? I haven't yet, no. It was locked. Actually.

[00:09:58] Ryan Holiday: Have the, the reason we did this is because in the bookstore, this is cool, but the bookstore has a big indoor fireplace.

'cause the buildings from the 18 hundreds. So we did the whole fireplace in book. So it runs, it's like 22 feet tall. I assume you're never gonna use that because that sounds It doesn't work. Okay, good. Because I was like, let's line this. It's not a Fahrenheit 4 51 situation. Let's

[00:10:16] Jordan Harbinger: line this fireplace with old paper.

No, no, no.

[00:10:18] Ryan Holiday: And this is the, not the inside of the fireplace. It's the Of

[00:10:20] Jordan Harbinger: course. Yeah. Even still. Yes. It's funny 'cause when I was like, oh, we should do another podcast. And whenever I, I usually dictate texts 'cause it's faster. Yeah. But whenever it's you or other author friends, like, I gotta freaking proofread this.

Because like, you know, yeah. You got like four 15 bestsellers. 16 now maybe. I think this is my 16th book. Yeah. So I gotta make sure there's like an Oxford comma in the right place. Otherwise it's like, do I, I didn't know Jordan was a moron. There's know the difference between there and there. I would not,

[00:10:47] Ryan Holiday: I would not notice if it was incorrect.

I do appreciate that you dictate the text. You know what I hate? I hate voice memos. Voice memos. They're inconsiderate. Of course. Yeah. It always screws up my thing. 'cause I'll, I'll open it and be like, oh great, it's a voice text. I gotta play this later. Yeah. I'll play it later. And then I never play it later.

And then because I'm with people, I don't want to just play your text in front of

[00:11:05] Jordan Harbinger: watching a video at full of volume. Like I put in my air pods to listen to this thing. No, thank you. Put it up to my ear at a table. The voice memo thing is, there's probably a writing corollary or there's a similar example with writing, I'm sure.

But if I have to write something, I have to clarify my thinking. Yes. Right. And I go, I. Are you gonna be there tonight? Looking forward to seeing you. But if it's a voice memo, it's, Hey man. Oh, what's up? Oh, so sorry. I'm just getting in my car. Dude, it is so hot today. Oh man. And I'm gonna get like a smoothie or whatever.

I'm with the kids. So, uh, do you think, uh, are you gonna go to Jimmy's thing tonight? Uh, and if you do like, let me know. 'cause I might go too. And if you don't, well, I, whatever. I'm going anyway, so I guess, and you're just like, this could have been one sentence. What are you doing?

[00:11:45] Ryan Holiday: I actually, um, was just working on it yesterday.

In, in the book that I'm doing now, I have a chapter on writing to think that you write to think, right. Like at Amazon you can't just call a meeting. To call a meeting, you have to submit a three page memo. Oh wow. That's a exactly idea that everyone reads at the beginning of the meeting. Oh, wow. Then the meeting is the discussion about the idea or the proposal or the whatever.

And I was thinking about like why they do that. And it's so you can't just like wing it and halfheartedly think about it. Or have you actually have to think about what you think. By definition, when you're writing, you have to think all the way through. Like to get to the period, you have to think all the way through.

Mm-Hmm. You can't just start and figure out like the act of thinking to completion. That's so important.

[00:12:33] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:12:33] Ryan Holiday: Yeah. For people dunno this, so this table we're sitting at is, was Joan Didion table, and I have a line in the think she says, writing is a hostile act because you're trying to persuade someone or worse force them to understand your thinking about something.

Right. And to do that, you have to comprehend first what you are thinking. Yeah. It, and so there's something, there's something about just winging it that is just never gonna be as, it's rude not to take the time to do it. And look, if you're disabled or dyslexic or something, it's fine. Totally. Totally different story.

Yeah. But there is something about the like, well, I'll just throw a bunch of shit at you and then you process it, and then you come back to me. Even if you are though,

[00:13:12] Jordan Harbinger: you could still dictate it unless

[00:13:13] Ryan Holiday: you

[00:13:13] Jordan Harbinger: can't

[00:13:14] Ryan Holiday: talk. Right.

[00:13:14] Jordan Harbinger: That, but in which case, you sending me a voicemail, you dictate edit. Yeah, yeah. Or don't edit it.

I whatever. If there's a wrong word in there, and I can read between the lines, fine. It's the mumbling and the rambling where I'm like, we are not on a phone call. This is, I can't even, I'm not even spending time with you. Like if I'm on the phone with somebody and they're like, oh, I'm just getting in the car, man, it's so hot in Texas.

Yeah. I'm like, well, at least we're talking. Yes. If you're just talking at me. Yeah. It's the equivalent of a podcast where I'm like, Hey. Um, so. What do you guys wanna talk about? I don't know. Yeah. Oh, well you wrote a book, didn't you? That's cool. Like, no, you don't handle a podcast like that. So now I'm, I'm a victim of your four minute podcast.

That could have been one sentence. Yeah. It's what a voice memo is. It's unbelievable. You're in this weird place where people analyze everything you do through a lens of stoicism and it's, it's a little bit, it's a little bit hard to watch sometimes. Like recently you were cleaning up like a dog carcass and garbage that had just been thrown in a road at your house.

I did do this yesterday. You filmed because you were like, Hey, I wanna set an ex. I assume, because you're like, I wanna set an example of what it means to li live a good life and encourage other people to do the same. And people are like, why are you filming your virtues, bro? That's not stoic. That's not stoic, bro.

What do you think is happening there? I'm

[00:14:21] Ryan Holiday: more perplexed as to how the thing keeps happening. That's probably why I recorded the video. So I'll give you an example. I drove, I was driving my son home yesterday. We live on this dirt road. All the houses are on this dirt road. Uh, we have this shared mailbox, like, you know, like, oh, so the man doesn't have to go every else, so you can't, 'cause they can't drive on the, the road.

And so pull up and there's like 10 enormous black garbage bags of trash that someone had dumped since I had driven on the road this morning. And I'm like, ah, yeah, it's disgusting. It is. It's a hundred degrees outside. Yeah. And part of me is like, I should just, I didn't do this. Yeah. This is a mile and a half from my house.

Mm-Hmm. So, like, I, it's not like I'm gonna smell it, but I'm like, no one else is gonna take care of it. Right. This is not a public road. I called my wife and I was like, what kind of person? Yeah. Drives their car to a place. I was wrap, trying to wrap my head around getting out of the car, undoing the back of your truck or your trailer and then picking this up and throwing it on the ground.

Yeah. First off, like how scary that would be. We could get caught at any moment. Yeah. But I was like, don't they know that there's a dumpster behind like every business? Yeah. And. It's illegal to do it here. It's also illegal to do it there, but like, I gotta figure the guy working behind the counter at the gas station cares a lot less.

Sure. And then also it's less bad for like, what are you doing? You know? Yeah. So anyways. I agree. I'm sure you used the word person. Yeah. I would've used a different word. I, it's, I, so I had to pick up this track. I threw it in the thing, it was disgusting. There were maggots everywhere. And then I had to, like, I only have one trash can, so I had to like stop at every neighbor's house, like on the way home.

And they're like to give one bag, like, and the thing, you know, I was like, so I had to attach all this. You're gonna get,

[00:16:08] Jordan Harbinger: you're gonna, the police are gonna be like, we have footage of you dumping illegally.

[00:16:11] Ryan Holiday: A couple years ago someone had thrown a mattress. And so I'm in there loading this mattress in the back of my truck and one of my neighbors pulls up and is like, what are you doing?

I go, bro, I've lived here way longer than you. Also, it's the middle of the day. Where were you when this was being dumped? You know? But anyway, so I can't wrap my head around that. And the more baffling is they tend to dump like dead animals, they'll dump. Yeah. That's

[00:16:32] Jordan Harbinger: kind of freaks me out a little deer carcasses

[00:16:34] Ryan Holiday: or what?

It's a lot of dead dogs and I can't figure out if it's a dog fighting ring. Yeah. Or if it's a, do they not know you can bury things in your own yard or again, you can just throw it in a dumpster somewhere. I guess

[00:16:46] Jordan Harbinger: like the deer thing is maybe hunting, but the dead dog carcasses very, if you find one, you're like, oh man, that's someone's pet.

But when you find five dead dog carcasses, something's going on there. I am

[00:16:55] Ryan Holiday: personally disposed of at least 10 dead dogs. That's sounds like illegal activity. And that's the only, the ones that I was like, this is fresh enough for me to do something about. Not like I just had to, it's falling apart. So. So anyways, I'm baffled by that, but I was filming the video because I was trying to talk about this thing, which is kind of what the new book is about.

But when I first moved there. I think this is how I went through life. I'd be like, well, I hope someone takes care of this. Yeah, sure. You know, I just hope someone takes care of this. I would call the police and be like, Hey, I remember one time I was running right after this had, uh, one of these had happened and a police car was driving down my road, which never happens.

This is a private road. And so I flagged down the officer and I go, Hey man. Like, I dunno if you saw it, but there's like, and he's like, it's weird, huh? You know, he's like baffled by it too. Yeah. Not like, Hey, I'm gonna like take care of this for you. Right. But like, he's like, I wish they wouldn't put 'em in the bags because then it makes it harder for him to decompose.

He was just thinking about it like purely from a, like, this is just how it, it goes. Yeah. It'd be better if it was more natural. 'cause it would go away faster. Yeah. I mean, okay, so, so I grew up where I lived and how I thought like, this is what government is for. Mm-Hmm. This is like what the police are for, or the sanitation department is for animal control is for, and one of the things you learn in Texas, I'm not saying it's good, I hate it about Texas, but you're just like.

No, no, no, no. Nobody gives a shit. Yeah. I was like, oh, if I don't like this and I don't like it. 'cause when I have to drive by it or I have to run by it and I have to smell it and it's awful. And then also it bad for the environment, I guess the dogs are fine, but the trash, I was like, I have to take care of this.

Like I have to pick this up and put it in my truck and it's gonna st. Like I have to do

[00:18:38] Jordan Harbinger: it. Yeah.

[00:18:39] Ryan Holiday: When we think of something like that happening, we think justice is like, well, I'm gonna call the police. They're gonna investigate the crime. They're gonna arrest the person, the person's gonna be punished.

And that is a version of legal justice for the situation. But there's also just the fact that the thing is there and it has to be reso. Like there's two ways this goes. One is I drive by it every day and birds slowly tear the bags of trash apart. Yeah. Open. Yeah. And the trash spreads everywhere. And then eventually leaves fall and gets covered up.

Or there's a version where I get disgustingly dirty picking this up and throwing it away. Mm-Hmm. And taking time outta my day and. I have to choose between which one of those I'm gonna live with. Yeah. And that, that's what the video is about. And then, yeah, some people managed to get upset by this, which is always strange.

But that's,

[00:19:23] Jordan Harbinger: that is strange. It is strange. I noticed you're not in the comments as much on social media as in years past. Is that you're right. Like the plague that infects your character, is it related

[00:19:32] Ryan Holiday: to that? I think so. I mean, it's weird. You're always in the comments on my thing, so I, I mostly see the feel to you.

Yeah. I'm sort of like ashamed of that. But yeah. No, I think it's hilarious. But no, I realized it was making me, it wasn't bringing out a good part of me. Yeah. Like, and then I was arguing with people that I was never going to convince. It was also just making me less motivated to do good stuff in the world and to do good work because I was bumping up against the existence of these people who I'd prefer not to think about.

[00:20:05] Jordan Harbinger: I agree. No. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I do. I see a lot of hate now with the Israel stuff. You just see people post like really gross stuff about one ethnic group or another, and I used to be like, explain this to me. Like, let me, and then I, you realize very quickly, like this is not, it's either not a real

[00:20:22] Ryan Holiday: person at all.

That's a huge part of it, I think. Like I see people post these like, can't believe someone said this, and it's like, I can't believe it either because a person did not say that. Yeah, that was a bot, or it's artificial intelligence, or it's a troll. Doing something. Yeah. To saying the most extreme thing to get you to do this.

Yep. I think that's really hard. And then also the people who are doing it, who are real are in a way not real. Yeah. And you know what I mean? Like there's something broken in that person. It's not a level playing field. You're not gonna convince them. Their whole point is to provoke, distract, or make you despair.

That's right. And, and so I've tried to do a lot less of it. Sometimes I see them, so it's still getting me, but I'm not, I'm at least not doubling down once I see it. It's funny you mentioned that even

[00:21:10] Jordan Harbinger: the alive living person is not a real person. Yeah. I've read this article years ago and I can't, I have no idea where it is.

Maybe my producer can find it. But it was about how this woman who's a journalist, she was looking at this really bad troll. Yeah. That was horrible online. And it turned out to be like her husband. And she attracted and, and she's like, but wait, my husband's not a man, an angry guy who's, what is it, nihilistic or whatever, and cynical.

So what's going on? And it turned out that he just found it kind of cathartic Yeah. To be this horrendously terrible person that posted kind of some evil stuff and harassed people, not harassed to the point where he was going out of his way, but he would just be like, oh, I'm gonna push that button. He just kind of got like a, a juvenile kick out of it, and it got worse and worse.

And he was, she's like, you need to stop doing this. And he was just like, sure. And we need to get a divorce. Right. No,

[00:22:00] Ryan Holiday: but he, he's not being real, like he's acting, he is doing, he's playing, playing a role. Yeah. Or a character that, you know, solves some deep psychosis in the person. Of course. But like, so what I mostly just do now is I, I don't even have it on my phone, but.

I have the person who does our social media stuff. You can just shadow ban people. Yeah. And so it's like, I'm just going like, Hey, they were letting me know they would like to be shadow ban. Mm-Hmm. That's how I think about it. Scream

[00:22:26] Jordan Harbinger: into the void.

[00:22:27] Ryan Holiday: Yeah. And then, and then so they continue to post, but they just have no idea that they're not affecting anyone.

[00:22:32] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. That's a good idea. I see. It's just interesting to think that the person who posted something horrible about like Jews or Palestinians or African Americans is like the same guy or gal that is at the grocery store that's like, oh, I think you dropped your wallet, sir. And you're like, oh, thank you so much.

That would've ruined my day. And they're like, yeah, no problem. And you're like, that's the guy who secretly posted this thing and is like at my kids' soccer games. And there's Jewish kids on the team and he doesn't have any real issue with them at all. It's just an online thing that gets him like feeling powerful.

It's kind of sick.

[00:23:04] Ryan Holiday: Actually, I had a weird experience. I, I can't talk too specifically about it 'cause I think it'll feed the thing, but there was someone where someone posted something very negative about me online. But in a way, or at a place that I've seen it happen before. So before I would see it and I was like, oh, like this is the world not liking me.

These are people telling me I suck and whatever. And then I saw it happen in the same place and I realized I knew the person that did it and I was like, oh. And I knew why they did it. 'cause we'd had an interaction. And so I was like, oh. So it was very clear like this person was going through some stuff and decided to like blow off some steam by encouraging people to shit on me.

And, um, realizing like, oh, that's what the other people are doing. I just don't know them. Right. Or the story that's interesting. And, and so it was like this weird, I was like, this is like this whole thing that only very loosely has anything to do with me. Hmm. And I have to just not let it in because it's toxic and dysfunctional and weird.

But it was, it was like this very weird experience where like you think of trolls and criticism and whatever that happens on the internet as being this sort of like faceless. Big thing in a way. Mm-Hmm. All these people and then realizing like, no, no, no. It's, it's a very specific person acting for a very specific reason.

Yeah. That's interesting. It was. It was strange. But it's helped

[00:24:21] Jordan Harbinger: me in a weird way, I will say to people who are maybe tempted to engage in this kind of thing or respond to it in a way that's also extreme. 'cause that's how it escalates. Yeah. Right. Someone responds to it and they're like, oh, well now I have it out for you.

I use my real name online. Yeah, I know you do too. It makes things a lot easier 'cause you go, oh this, I'm gonna let this person have it. And then you're like, but then everybody who sees that is gonna be like, sure, Jordan Harbinger said this kind of awful thing to a person and that person, you know, their comment kinda deserved it.

But shouldn't you be above that? Yes. Like, aren't you a guy above this kind of crap and you go. Yes. But if you're posting under your like pseudonym or whatever, then people will go, you, you get away with it. Yes. So I sort of created accountability for myself in that respect.

[00:25:01] Ryan Holiday: Yeah, no, I, I realized I was not, I was getting sucked into stuff and even if I was winning the exchanges, I was losing.

Yeah,

[00:25:09] Jordan Harbinger: yeah, yeah. The plague that infect your character.

[00:25:11] Ryan Holiday: Yeah. Yeah. Which is a thing. So Marcus Real, in his meditation, he says basically there's two kinds of plagues and he's writing in the middle of a plague, which I did not realize. It just sort of, I didn't understand until I went through a plague, and as we all did, and he's saying, look, there's the part of the plague that kills your.

Life that can kill you, which he may have ultimately succumbed to. And he says, there's this other part that infects your character. And so all the things that we saw during Covid must have happened during the Antoine Plague. Also that the radicalization, the conspiracy theories, the callousness, the cruelty, just the catharsis of, you know, attacking people and persecuting people.

I think that's what he's talking about. Yeah. What I came to understand when I, I would interact with some of these people when I'd do something very innocuous or say something very right down the middle of just like ordinary human behavior when millions of people are dying. Yeah. Or something is, people would freak out and I'd be like, oh, you're infected.

Like you caught something. And I think you, you and I both saw people we know, yeah. Become very different people as a result of what they went through. And so that ironically tied into the shadow banning thing, because I would ban these people for saying horrible stuff or spreading misinformation or whatever, and then I would see them comment later.

On other things like on on people I know or on my account, and when you shadow ban someone or you ban someone on Instagram. When you're a verified account or whatever, it turns their thing gray. And it says like, restricted comment. Oh, interesting. I was like, oh, these are like infected people. Uh, it's like they're labeled that I'm seeing that they're like an infected person.

Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. And I'm watching them go around and try to infect people with their awfulness or stupidity or deeply held, but nonsensical belief.

[00:26:58] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-Hmm.

[00:26:59] Ryan Holiday: And oh, that's, and then late. That is interesting. You label them. It'll be weird. Like couple years. Some of this has been going on for a long time.

I'll notice them put something in. I don't know why, but I'll click it and I'll be like, love your stuff. You're doing great. You know? Yeah. And then I realize, oh, they were infected in this moment, and maybe they're better now. Yeah. Hopefully. You know, it's a weird thing. And I, I do think we live in a time where it's very easy.

You watch one thing or you talk to one thing and then you just watch this process happen to someone. Like a set of symptoms in an illness. Yeah. And then the next thing you know, they're like broken brain kind of

[00:27:31] Jordan Harbinger: situation. You're listening to the Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest Ryan Holiday just in time for the holidays.

There's a joke in here somewhere that I was too lazy to write. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Airbnb. Alright, let's be real. If you ever thought about hosting your place on Airbnb but felt like it's a lot of work, I get it. I mean, who wants to add another job to the list? Right?

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[00:29:28] Jordan Harbinger: If you're wondering how I managed to book all these great authors, thinkers, and creators every single week, it is because of my network, the circle of people that I know, like, and trust, and I know networking is kind of a dirty word.

Nobody really likes that. It's a little, gosh, these days. Anyway, I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself as I just crap all over the concept for free in our course@sixminutenetworking.com. The course is about improving your skills with respect to this. It's super easy stuff. It's not cringey.

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You'll be in smart company where you belong. You can find the course again, it's all free. I don't need your credit card number, nothing like that, at six minute networking.com. Now back to Ryan Holiday. It is interesting. 'cause part of it is social media. Yeah. Bringing people down rabbit holes. And part of it is people getting way into social media during the pandemic.

Mm-Hmm. 'cause they couldn't leave their house. They had nothing better to do. So that was like a, a part of a vicious cycle. Yes. And I think the other stuff is stuff that's been around for thousands of years when plagues hit, which is, yeah. Isolation, feeling of helplessness, desperately trying to regain a sense of control.

And all of this ends up being, it can manifest itself in pretty horrible

[00:30:41] Ryan Holiday: ways. Yeah. I was gonna write this thing, I didn't end up writing it, but I was gonna say like, the oldest virus is antisemitism. Mm-Hmm. And you can watch people get like infected with it. Yeah. Like you, they watch a documentary or a book or they have an interaction or they go to a certain university.

It's a thing. Yeah. That it's been infecting humans and societies. There are other of these similar kind of mind viruses, but like that's just a thing. That specific virus has been infecting people's character for literally thousands of years. Mm-Hmm. And it happens in different ways and the different symptoms of it can manifest themselves differently in different societies.

But it is weird that it's just this thing that's always been there it

[00:31:21] Jordan Harbinger: is. And then people will use that to justify the antisemitism. Like, oh yeah, well y'all have been kicked outta 110 countries, or 109, or whatever it is. They can't remember. We've lost track of how many countries we've even kicked out.

And they'll go, yeah, it's been around for a thousand, so it must have some shred of truth to it. And it's like, well, actually we're still around. That's why this is still around because Jews are still around if we weren't around anymore. Like no one's complaining about ethnic groups that they exterminated a hundred century BC or whatever.

No one's like, oh, those Babylonians. Right. Yeah. No, no. Humans

[00:31:52] Ryan Holiday: have, humans have been doing awful things to each other for a very long time. Yeah. But yeah, this sort of othering and deciding like someone is going to be the scapegoat for a society that's always been there. But anyways, just this idea there's different kinds of viruses to me has been a helpful way of understanding the world and, and that you can get.

You can catch good things and bad things, but a lot of people catch bad things.

[00:32:12] Jordan Harbinger: I definitely, I would love to talk about misinformation. Yeah. We talked about a little bit on your show. Do you feel like having kids has caused you to do more things in your life the right way? Because like maybe before having kids, you were like, eh, I can get away with this.

And now it's like, well,

[00:32:25] Ryan Holiday: I think so. I mean, you, you are trying to model good behavior and you're trying to show things, and I do feel like you have this obligation when you have kids to, I, I think raise them well. Yeah. I think it's made me think about things. I don't know. It is funny. People will be like, I have two daughters, and that's what made me like, care about this for the first time.

Right. That's a little weird, you know? Yeah. Where you're like, I don't know if you need to have daughters to, to know that sexual assault is bad or something. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I got those too. I see those

[00:32:53] Jordan Harbinger: people too,

[00:32:53] Ryan Holiday: but I don't know. I, I think mostly what parenting did was it opened me up. Like it's very easy to be selfish and to just think about you 'cause you've got your own pain and your own problems and your own ambitions, and to just sort of be closed off.

And I, I think what parenting should do is, I mean, it forces you on a daily basis to spend a lot of time thinking about what other these other people are thinking. Yeah. And what they're going through and why they're acting this way. I think one, one of the things that hit me earlier was like, I'd be like, why are our kids acting this way?

Yeah. And my wife would be like, oh, it's because we skipped nap. Yeah. Or whatever. Or it's because we didn't take lunch seriously and they didn't really eat anything. And realizing that, oh, there's this very specific cause and effectiveness of behavior in children, but also in people. And when you're forced to see it over and over and over again with your kids, what I tried to take from that deliberately was like, I.

Okay. Everyone is acting for a reason.

[00:33:53] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-Hmm.

[00:33:54] Ryan Holiday: And I myself act for a reason and I always let myself off the hook for that reason. Right. Right. I didn't mean it. I'm tired, I'm overwhelmed. And then whatever. I think it did cultivate some extra empathy in me because it forced me to, it's not that your kids are never in the wrong, but like they're kids.

Right. Right. And so you have to think about why they're acting this way. You can't just be like, it's 'cause they're an asshole. It's 'cause they suck. Yeah. It's because those people are like that. Yeah. Right. All the things we do to not empathize or care about other people because it would be a burden.

And so kids force you to do that and I, I tried very deliberately as that process happened to take out sort of a meta lesson from it and I think it may be better.

[00:34:38] Jordan Harbinger: I like that. I think for me, you kind of encouraged me to think about this, I think in some ways, which is that. For example, every time you go somewhere, I know you're traveling today, so I'm gonna, I'm twisting the knife.

But like whenever you have to choose to go somewhere, it's like this has to be important. Yes. Like I came to Austin because it's like, I'm gonna be on your show. I'm gonna interview you, I wanna see the bookstore, haven't seen your, you and your wife in years or whatever it's been. And I would love to visit.

And then it's like, and then I'm going to New York to do 8 billion things, not to hang out for four days. Yeah. And like maybe do some No, it's like back to back to back to back. It's not gonna be all fun and games. Yeah. It's gonna be quite stressful. And then my wife's like, do you wanna take it easy and come back on Friday or do you want to?

I'm like, Nope. Come back on Thursday night and get back late and then go straight to bed after a really long as day. And the next day I'm gonna be on a plane to San Diego to go to Legoland. And I can't be like, oh, daddy doesn't want to build Legos. I'm tired. It's like, no, I'm gonna caffeinate and get her done.

You have to have a reason to do all of these things to take you away from your family. Yes. Whereas before I had kids, I was like. I'll go somewhere. Why don't we stay at this place for like a month? Let's throw an extra week and just stay in Hawaii and front around. It's like you really have to prioritize.

Well, you don't.

[00:35:47] Ryan Holiday: You don't have to though.

[00:35:48] Jordan Harbinger: I, I guess you could screw up your kids and not do that. Yeah,

[00:35:50] Ryan Holiday: and I would say a lot of people don't. Right. Like it's true. Like I don't think everyone does think that way. Maybe not. I don't know if my parents always thought that way. I don't know if generations of parents have always thought that way.

The idea that you owe the first slash best of your time or self to these people. I think that's a somewhat recent and wonderful cultural You might be right consensus, you know, but once you concede to it, then yeah, it does challenge you and it forces you to change. Because I realized I was, it's not that I was not selfish, I think I was selfish, but I was very willing to do things that incurred a cost to myself or even to my relationship, or to my health, or to my work.

Because people asked, because they were lucrative. Because, yeah, it would be good for my career. I would just say yes. And I think fundamentally a lot of it was just insecurity. Like I knew that at some point people would stop asking. Right? And so I had to say yes now. Yeah. I just didn't have the confidence to be like, it'll come around.

Yeah. And so seeing the cost of that embodied in a very sweet three-year-old on the verge of tears or whatever it is, forces you to. See the cost of the Yesness. Mm-Hmm. From a different perspective. That's been very powerful and life-changing for me.

[00:37:08] Jordan Harbinger: Likewise. And I, I think you're right. There's most of these examples I think you've given me.

Gandhi was like the last kids were last in line. Yeah. Angela Mekel, her dad was I think a pastor or priest. Or priest. Is it a pastor

[00:37:20] Ryan Holiday: for disabled children. Right. But his own children were always kind of

[00:37:23] Jordan Harbinger: last in line, last in line. And then, was it the Queen of England who like. Was gone for months at a time.

And then she sees her kids and they run up to give her a hug and she's like, no, not right now. And then she like greets some dignitary.

[00:37:35] Ryan Holiday: Yeah, she terrible. Yeah, she's been gone for months. The royal yacht comes in, her kids rush up to her and there's like a protocol, which with the queen is supposed to like greet.

I don't know the prime Minister. There was some protocol she was supposed to observe and like your kids are not part of that protocol. Yeah. And Prince Charles, like now the king of English runs up to his mom. He's like five or six. She says, not you dear, I have to do this first. Right. Ah, heartbreaking. And I think it's even like a title of one of the chapters in his memoir.

So like these little decisions that you make, they had this searing impact on a person. I was actually just thinking about that on the way here. Like the way in which, like we say, our kids come first and then like. I don't know. I was on the phone yesterday. My kids are making crazy noise, but I'm on this phone.

I'm like, you shut up. Yeah. Not you, who, by the way, work for me put up with this background noise, was trying to sell me something. Yeah. Yeah. I like I was saying, like saying to my kids, these people are more important than you. Mm-Hmm. Or like, I was going somewhere and like, I don't like to be late, but am I rushing drop off with my kids?

Right? So this other person doesn't have to wait one minute. Obviously it's not good to make anyone wait. We should have left a little earlier. But the point is like I'm saying, no, no, no, no. Like what you need is less important than this trivial inconvenience to this other person. The ease with which we do that, I feel like it's forced me to just think about things differently and I think become more just generally empathetic.

But this, the sad thing is yes, most of the great men and women from history were not good parents.

[00:39:06] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. It sucks to read that stuff. 'cause you think, is this a necessary trade? It's not. I don't think it is.

[00:39:11] Ryan Holiday: I mean, look, do you think Zelinsky has been a great father the last couple years? Well, yeah, I'm sure.

I'm sure there's a probably different, I'm sure there's a cost to it. Sure. Right. I think a lot of times it's rationalized in a disturbing way. We say we're doing it for them and it's not Yeah. Like he, he might have a decent excuse. No, no. I, when you're saying, is this necessary? Yeah. I'm saying like, you know, Winston Churchill is saving humanity from the Nazis.

Mm-Hmm. Was he. Has hands on with his children and grandchildren in that period? Probably not. Right. And like, there are moments where, so what, I guess I was trying to let Zelensky off the hook. It seems like a, actually a great human being. Speaking of Zelensky in parenting, there's a thing in his first inaugural address, the famous, like, we do this in the us the, there's a picture of the president at the airport or whatever, Ukraine's, a patriotic country.

He was like, don't hang up pictures of me in your house. He was like, hang up pictures of your kids in your house. Mm-Hmm. And try to honor them, you know? And I loved that. I thought that was cool. Yeah. I love that. He seems like a, a, a lovely person. I'm saying, look, sometimes you're, you're gonna be faced in situations where you can't, you have to be gone or away or that's not what I'm saying.

I do think what tends to happen is we say we're doing these things for our kids, but we're doing them for ourselves. Mm-Hmm. And if we are actually doing it for our kids, we would not be doing it.

[00:40:30] Jordan Harbinger: It's tough when you face yourself with that reality. I, for example, and I've told you this a thousand times, but whatever, it's a podcast.

So you have to put up with that. I haven't written a book and one of the reasons is I wanna write a book when I really have something to say. Mm-Hmm. Not when my agent wants, like a house in Nantucket or whatever, um, for a commission. But one of the other reasons is my kids are two and four or almost five.

And the, your agent will always tell you, we're gonna help you with the ghost writer. It's gonna be a lighter lift. I'm like, what about the five year? First of all, no, I don't wanna have somebody like do this whole thing for me and then it's crap or mediocre and then I have to promote it for five years. I could say to my wife, look, look how much money they're offering me.

Sure. Isn't this gonna be great? We can send 'em to any school we want, any college we want. We can go on vacation, we can take 'em to Disneyland every weekend with all this money. But the truth is, I'm not gonna be done with work at 5:00 PM anymore. Sure. I'm gonna be done at eight 30 or whatever. 'cause I'm doing maybe four days a week.

Maybe on Friday. I'll leave a little early. What is really gonna matter more. And if you really think about it, your kids are not going to care if when you're dead they get a little bit more book Royal. More royalties. Yeah. Book royalties are like more money in the sure will of the trust and estate.

They're gonna be like, I just remember playing with my dad like every day after school. Or do they remember you not being available at all after school, but cool, I got a boat 'cause my dad passed away. You know, like what? You really have to ask yourselves these, these questions. Sure. And you find out that the answer is no.

You wanted to write that book so you could get that money and then you could do a book tour and everybody thinks you're brilliant and special and fun and you're talking and people are admiring you and maybe you hit the list. So you get that cool thing a pla you gotta plaque. You know that stuff is meaningful, but is it better than spending time with your kids?

The answer's almost always. No. But there's so much shine on that stuff,

[00:42:12] Ryan Holiday: man. Yeah, I think about that and, but then I catch myself because conversely you say you're doing stuff for your kids and then uh, you're not, you can also tell yourself you're not doing things for your kids so you can spend more time with them or whatever.

And then you go. But how am I spending my time? Right. You know what I mean? Like, like how am I spending my time? First off, when I'm at home or around the, am I actually home or am I preoccupied or busy or thinking about the work that I do have?

[00:42:40] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-Hmm.

[00:42:41] Ryan Holiday: And then also, am I just filling that stuff up? So I, I'll go like, okay, do I want to take this flight or this flight?

You know, one gets me home an hour earlier, but it's crazy. And then I go, okay, but how often do I waste an hour at home when I have it? No kidding, right? Because I'm, I'm gonna go, oh, I'm gonna go run this errand, or, oh, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna. So I think it should keep you honest in both ways. Not just, Hey, I don't do stuff, but also.

Where am I when I'm not doing stuff? Just doing it to pat myself on the back. Yeah. It's interesting. But I'm actually not being parent of the year with the time that I have. Right, right. Or it's like, do you wanna be person who's gone from time to time or, you know, have this temporary thing where you're working a lot, or do you wanna be the person who's bitter and frustrated or not present because you know, you could be doing something or you should be, you know what I mean?

Like Yeah. To me it's, I

[00:43:31] Jordan Harbinger: suppose I get that I've chosen my kids over my career in many ways. That's good. Um, it is kind of tough because you go, oh, I bet I could build some. Well, no, it's gonna take a lot of extra time, but then you, you just really have to be honest with yourself and a ideally before you have kids.

Yes. Ask yourself what you really want. 'cause we've all seen those, those kids whose parents actually just wanted to be the best plastic surgeon in Michigan instead of being a dad. And I saw what happened to those kids and it wasn't good. I try

[00:43:57] Ryan Holiday: to make decisions. I try to go like, is this the thing?

Looking back, I go, that was the straw that broke the camel's back. That's why mom and dad live in different houses. Yeah. You know what I mean? And so there's been moments where like, I've had cool job opportunities or cool projects or, you know, and I had to go look, that seems cool, but I, I can see the wreckage that comes along with it.

And I, so I've chosen that too. And I think it's good, you know, in that I don't think men were ever expected to make those kind of choices probably. And certainly not, wouldn't like proudly say that they had done that. So I think that's, you ever hear older guys be like,

[00:44:33] Jordan Harbinger: I've never changed a diaper in my life.

And I'm thinking like, you don't know what you're missing, pal. Yeah. Like actually it's, it's quite funny and fun to be that intimately involved with the caring of your kids. But you're right. Maybe a generation ago was kind of considered like, oh, what are you, some kinda loser. You don't have anything better to do.

[00:44:49] Ryan Holiday: Yes, exactly. You could have been a better plastic surgeon in Michigan. Right? Like there's a line in writing and I forget who said it, but something like, every kid you have is a book. You won't write. And there's probably something to that, like I meant negative two books to, to the, the answer to that is to shrunk.

Yeah. 'cause it, they're not that like, you're not changing the world with any of this shit. It's not that important. There's an ego in, in thinking like, I chose not to have kids 'cause my work's so important. Yeah. Look, if you, if you don't wanna have kids, don't have kids. I'm not saying it's like I agree morally good or bad to do it right.

I just the narcissism of like, no, no, no, these are my children. Right. It's like, alright bro, it's cringey. Yeah, bro, you, you, yeah. You make makeup tutorials or whatever. Right? Yeah.

[00:45:35] Jordan Harbinger: It's true. I, I do look and I'm always, if people are on the fence about not having kids, I always say, don't, 'cause it's, I say

[00:45:41] Ryan Holiday: this when people are on the fence about writing a book.

[00:45:43] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:45:43] Ryan Holiday: Don't do it.

[00:45:43] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:45:44] Ryan Holiday: Please don't.

[00:45:44] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, please don't. For the rest of us and also for the kids. Yes. I guess the book itself doesn't have feelings, but it doesn't need to be out there. Save the trees. Yes. There are people that have work and you go, I couldn't do this if I had children, so I decided not to.

And you're like. But you do a radio show. Yeah. So like, I mean, it's a great show, but really like when you're gone, maybe people will replay this occasionally, but they're just gonna be like old folks when they're gone. No one's gonna go back a hundred years and listen to your old interviews. Really? I mean, it's very unlikely.

[00:46:14] Ryan Holiday: No,

[00:46:14] Jordan Harbinger: I

[00:46:14] Ryan Holiday: was, I was interviewing some television hosts and he was, he was like, I don't see my kids as much as I'd like, but like I'm doing these shows for them. And I was like, that's not why you're on TV three times a day, bro. Like, that has nothing to do with them. No, you're on TV three times a day because they pay you millions of dollars.

Mm-Hmm. One and two. You like fucking talking. Yeah. That's what your superpower is. Don't make it about them. You gotta be intellectually honest about why you're doing the thing. There's something uniquely egotistical about doing a selfish thing and then making it a statement of your selflessness and sacrifice.

Sure.

[00:46:50] Jordan Harbinger: Like I think there's a good chance that in. A hundred years, somebody will read a book about stoicism that you've written. That's pretty cool. I was telling my producer, like, when my kids are grown and they're listening to this and he goes, ha, funny of you, bold of you to think that your son Jaden is gonna be listening to more than one of these ever.

He's gonna listen to a couple and be like, ah, that's kind of fun. Never again. Maybe when he is like 75 and retired, he'll be like, oh my God, my dad has all that audio. Maybe I'll listen to that when I'm cutting the lawn or whatever. You know, the equivalent is then maybe. But otherwise, no. So the idea that you're trading time with them or trading some experience or thing that you could build with them to create that is, is laughably.

It's totally ridiculous. So why not just shut down your show and be a stay-at-Home? Dad, it would be great if I could earn a living. And I

[00:47:38] Ryan Holiday: love what I do. That has value. But yeah. No, but I mean, you could, you, I'm sure you could. I could retire. You could retire at a, at, it would, it wouldn't be easy necessarily.

But you could. But I could. Yeah. So, so I don't know. There,

[00:47:49] Jordan Harbinger: I'd still like to do something other than, you know, I thought about that. I was like, what if I took a hiatus? It would, it's, it's tough with creating things like a podcast 'cause you lose your audience. Like you never get it back. But I'm taking way more time.

Like I'm taking two months off starting next week actually. Wow. Legoland is the beginning of the, of the end of my work until the fall. Honestly. If, if my kids magically were gonna stay five and two forever, I, I would just retire. Yeah. Because I would take care of them. The problem is when I retire and then they're like 12 and they're like, why are you home?

[00:48:20] Ryan Holiday: What are you doing? I know my mom, my, I've get here, dad, I've told this story before and I relate. I, my relationship with changes is over time. 'cause I, I can relate to it more, but my mom worked, she was a school principal. She worked my whole life. But about like 12 or 13, she was like, she came home one day, she's so excited.

And she was like, I've switched to part-time so I can be home when you get home from school and we can spend more time together. And I was like, get out of here. I was like, what? That's terrible. I was like, what? Like you didn't do this shit for me. I'm 13. Yeah. Like I don't, I don't, I don't wanna hang out.

That's funny. Uh, brutal. So, I mean, Savage, I didn't say any of this, but the point is like there is a point where they don't want to see you anymore, you know? Yeah. And yeah, the earlier you make the decisions, there's that

[00:49:00] Jordan Harbinger: whole 18 summers thing and I'm like, whoever said that, did they really have kids?

'cause. When they're 13, the, the last five summers,

[00:49:06] Ryan Holiday: they do not want any part. Okay. So I think about that quote a lot, right? So people go, there's only 18 summers with your kids. And one of the things that's changed for me, like I think it's important that you, another Joan Didian thing, she said, I don't trust anyone that never moved away from home.

Like Mm-Hmm. That stays in your hometown. She was like, you gotta get out. That's funny. Like you meet different kinds of people, different cultures. What I think people with different economic classes. I think one of the things that's changed me as a parent, I remember growing up and you're supposed to move out when you're 18, and the kids who didn't move out when they were 18 were weirdos or losers.

And there was like something wrong about those families. Yeah. One of the things that's changed, and maybe it's a generational thing, I meet all these other people who are a little older than me or have older kids than I do, and they're teenagers. They spend tons of time together. Their kids are in college.

They spend tons of time together. That sounds cool. And, and what I realized is like, yeah, you only get 18 summers with your kids, but also if you have a good relationship with your kids and they don't hate spending time with you, right? You might have lots of summers with your kids. You should never take any of them for granted.

Sure. Because you never know what's gonna happen to anyone. And life is unpredictable. But also the idea shouldn't be, this is when we're together and then you move out and then we go do our life, which is kind of what my parents did. Like my parents moved to Hawaii when my Oh wow. Sister and I graduated from high school and college.

They were just like, good for them though. So that's our time now. That's nice. Which is good, but it's, there's a loneliness to that. I think also the ideal scenario is that you have a great relationship and you enjoy spending time together and you love and support and enjoy that company like. The founder of Kinko's was on a podcast once.

I was listening to him and he said, you know what, rich is, rich is your kids come home for the holidays? Mm-Hmm. And $1.8 billion, but whatever. But he, but he was saying how many people have $1.8 billion? That's true. And not a lot, but enough of them that we have a pretty large sample size that most of them do not have.

Great. That's true. Family lives. And his point was, you can have this stuff, but what you're really gonna want is this thing. And so I just try to think about like, what are the decisions, what are the practices? What are the, the way you work on this? So it's not like it was for me. And I think a lot of kids where you're like, I cannot wait to get the out of here.

Yeah. And away from these

[00:51:17] Jordan Harbinger: people. Psycho, yeah. Psycho parents. Yeah. Yeah. It's, I think a lot about investing in the relationship with my kids. And, you know, I'm reading like, what's the book he recommended? Constantly. Good Inside. Yeah. That's like current. Oh, she's the best play on my Dr. Becky. She's, I, I find myself just starting over 'cause I'm like, I just need to absorb this even more again.

Have you had her on yet? Not yet. It's only a matter of time. I'm you, I

[00:51:38] Ryan Holiday: I'm, I'm like the biggest Dr. Becky evangelist. Yeah. I'm gonna, I'll take that warm

[00:51:41] Jordan Harbinger: intro at some point. Yeah. Because she, everything she says is like either confirming a hunch where we're like, oh good, we're doing the right thing. Sure.

Or I'm like, Ooh, I like the way of looking at, so, so we'll link to that book in the show notes. Mm-Hmm. For this episode. But I found that, and I think I'm digressing from a point she made, but I find almost like less motivation in building my business. Same work ethic. Let's drive to expand things at the cost of having a relationship with the kids.

And it seems like I used to do all my shows in person, right? Mm-Hmm. And it was great. But now I would never make the choice to fly out to New York for just one show. Yes. Or something like, like it has to be this like fully packed time. Even a world class scientist, it's like. I'm spending three days essentially away from my kids.

Like it's a really different, I think I think about it in terms of

[00:52:26] Ryan Holiday: bedtimes and like, I was just talking to my wife last night, so I've got this book coming out. It comes out on Tuesday, and so I have to go to New York for the launch or whatever. And you work so hard at the beginning of your career, you're like, I wanna go on book tour.

I wanna do all this press. Yeah. Because I think you're rooted in this kind of insecurity. First off, there's a financial interest to it. You're just like, if I get that, then I'll be special. That's right. I'll be loved, I'll be validated, whatever. Then you get there and then you realize the cost of it.

[00:52:54] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-Hmm.

[00:52:54] Ryan Holiday: And then you're like, how can I get out of this?

[00:52:56] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:52:57] Ryan Holiday: I was like, how can this be as short as possible? Do I have to do that? Is that worth doing? Is there a return on an investment for doing that? And so it feels a little ungrateful and certainly privileged. But there is this other part of me that's like, oh no, I just wasn't aware of the cost of it before.

And now I have this other thing that I love more than than that. And so now I'm, I'm torn, you know?

[00:53:19] Jordan Harbinger: This is the Jordan Harbinger Show with my guest, Ryan Holiday. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by every plate. Deciding what to make for dinner is one of Jen's daily challenges. The time spent planning meals, shopping for ingredients, trying to please everybody at the table can be downright exhausting.

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I'm more than happy to surface that code for you because it is that important that you support those who support the show. Now for the rest of my conversation with Ryan Holiday, I think it was Dan Arieli on my show who said something like, you know how to get outta saying yes to things that you regret later.

He is like, instead of. Hey, in six months you're gonna do this. We're gonna go to Austin, New York, then you're gonna go to Mexico, and then you gotta go to Europe and do your European whatever tour. Yeah. You have to imagine that it's next Tuesday.

[00:57:08] Ryan Holiday: Yeah.

[00:57:08] Jordan Harbinger: Can you go to New York for a week? Oh, that sounds awesome.

It's next Tuesday. Uh, no, actually I don't feel like it, and I've got some stuff I wanna do. You're gonna have stuff you wanna do in 18 months. Yeah. During that trip that you're planning to go to New York for a week. Yeah. Do you wanna go? The

[00:57:22] Ryan Holiday: answer's always no. It's easy to not think about it.

[00:57:24] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's like filling a calendar that's empty. Okay. That calendar's eventually gonna be full. And now you got this big block thing that you kind of didn't really want to do, you said Yes. 'cause it was, if this, it's like the problem for future Ryan. Mm-Hmm. And you don't envy that guy. Yeah. The other thing, I think it, it makes it easier as you imagine your kids dying vividly.

Not like graphically, I guess you should say, but. Was it you who wrote about imagining visiting your child's grave?

[00:57:49] Ryan Holiday: Well, there's an exercise from Marcus Aurelius, which he takes from Epic. He says, like, as you tuck your child in at night, yeah. You should say to yourself, they will not make it through the morning memento.

More is, is morbid enough for people. Right. The idea of meditating on your own death, the idea that you would meditate on the death of your own child seems insane. Now, in Marcus's case, he buries half of his children. He buries, I think six children. So the ancient world was a horrendous place. Don't, and this is the guy with the best medical care money could buy, I guess, right?

Sure, sure. But I don't think what he's doing is trying to detach from the person. It's the opposite. The way I've taken it, the way it's informed how I parent is I'm, my son's like, can I have another glass of water? What do I need? This really, you're suddenly hungry. 46 minutes into bedtime. Yeah. No, you're, every night you're, you're extending this thing.

Right? And I go, all right. You know what I mean? What do I care? I'm gonna go, I. Not watch as much Netflix now, or like Yeah, it's always Netflix. The, the email's gonna wait a little bit longer. Yeah. Like, what am I rushing through this for? First off, there's also these moments you have with your kids where one night they're like, all right night.

And then it hits you. The things that we used to have to do as part of the routine. Mm-Hmm. That it's slowly fall away. Those are gone forever, and you're gonna miss them when they happen. And yet while you have them, you're like. When the fuck will this be over? Right? Yeah. And so, so to me, that exercise is a way of putting a very radical and almost deranged perspective on it.

And then you realize, oh, actually what's insane is this thing that I'm rushing through. You only get so many of these and, and here you are taking it for granted and someday you'll miss. And so I'm not perfect at it by any means. 'cause sometimes it's no, sometimes I'm tired and I wanna go to sleep. But, but that's right.

But no, we're not gonna get in the pool now. Yeah. Like, you know, it doesn't matter that we normally go in the pool before bed. You had a choice. You decided not to do it. And now you're already in your pajamas and the sound machine is on and you've been quietly laying there for 15 minutes. We're not going backwards.

Yeah. Into swimming time. What? Are you insane? Yeah. But like, that's funny. How am I gonna react to this? How am I gonna talk about, because why would I make this wonderful thing a negative exchange? And so that I, it does catch me that way. And the stokes were talking about it from the perspective that we, it was much harder for them to take it for granted because death was ever present.

Well for us, thank God infant mortality is incomprehensibly low compared to what it was then. So it's even easier for us to go, there's always gonna be another bedtime. It's always gonna be tomorrow, and that's not true. Yeah, it's not true. By definition. Childhood ends.

[01:00:16] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, man, it's, it is kind of depressing when you think about a lot of it, by the way, you have a pool here that's a good call.

It's like 97 degrees today. Yes. Yeah. It must be so nice as

[01:00:25] Ryan Holiday: well it, but like this is climate change. People I know are getting pool chillers. Like you have to have so to cool your pool because it gets so hot.

[01:00:32] Jordan Harbinger: Because it's just a warm, it's too hot of a pool. It's like a hot

[01:00:35] Ryan Holiday: tub.

[01:00:35] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Basically. Oh gosh. That is a, even when it's in the ground, I mean, yeah.

Look, if you have a pool in Dubai,

[01:00:41] Ryan Holiday: how hot do you think?

[01:00:42] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, that's true. But that's climate change for you. It's just 'cause it's so hot. That's, yeah. Well, I mean, it does sound nice to jump in a nice, cool pool. I actually wish I had kids earlier. I, I never. Yes,

[01:00:50] Ryan Holiday: I do too.

[01:00:51] Jordan Harbinger: It's funny. I never used the freedom I had back then.

Yeah. I wouldn't say never, but yeah. I also paid for it in, in loneliness in some ways. Yeah. Right. Sure. In 2020 hindsight, I was ready a lot. Or well, let's actually I was, you're never like ready to have kids. You're as ready as you're gonna get. Yeah. And you think you're gonna be ready later and you just aren't, you're older.

[01:01:09] Ryan Holiday: The other interesting thing, like there was some wisdom in the way that they had kids earlier because like. Your time was worth less. Yeah, that's true. Like my time in my twenties was worth less than my time in my thirties. Now is my time in my thirties valuable because of what I did in the T? Sure. But the point is the way we do it now, you're like having kids in the busiest part, like the teenage part.

Like when you're at like the peak of your powers. Yes. Or your peak of your earning potential. Yeah. So there's a weird, like what I would've been saying no to in my twenties, 'cause I had kids was like stupid social things. And now I'm like, we took a family vacation. Last summer and I was like, we were gone for a month.

We went somewhere for a month. That's awesome. It was so hot here. We're like, we're gonna go somewhere for a month and this is like a full, this is the only time I'd, the first time I'd done this, where I was like, and I will not be accepting no matter how lucrative anything. It was like, you wanna fly here for 12 hours?

We do a talk and come back. I was like, no, no. And so my agent was like, I know you said this, but like it's the most you've ever been offered for a thing. I have to show it to you. Mm-Hmm. You know? And I was like, no, I'm not gonna do it. And so I'm like, well fuck, this was an expensive vacation. Yeah. This was like a house vacation.

Do you know? Like, gosh, good for you. Saying no. But the point is nobody was throwing that kind of money at me when I was 27. No. You know, and so like it would've been nice to have a five-year-old then. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Like, you know Casey NYT stat. Yeah. Like Ca Casey had a kid in high school, obviously, which is not what you should do.

But the point is, is like his kid was in college when he was like hitting the peak of his career. Sure. Like exactly. When you're kid's like doing their own thing. There's some logic. I don't know. I think it's funny.

[01:02:42] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, no, you're right. It depends on the support structure you have. It it, it's a shame. I'm not trying to shame anybody who doesn't want kids.

I think it's a fair choice. I just wasn't, I wish it wasn't all the smart good people who were like, you know what? No. Choosing my career, or, you know, or they wait too long and they can't. Yeah. I would've gotten married earlier too. I think I just waited. I think so too on everything. Every, because it's, oh, well I don't wanna get married right away.

And then it was like, well, I just got married. I actually gotta enjoy being married for a while. And then suddenly you're just like, oh crap. If I don't have kids now I'm gonna be like 60 moving my kids into college, which is actually possibly gonna be true for me. And interesting. Depending on when they go to, well, maybe moving them out of college, I'll be 60 and it'll be like, holy crap, I can't lift this by myself.

I got a bad back chasing money and status. It makes sense when you're single. Yes. But if you're doing it when you're married and you have a family already, I think. You're kind of doing it backwards. Interesting. What do you mean? I think we get stuck in that mode and it's hard to escape. It's like, it's like a black hole.

Yeah. You start to feel good about it. Like you said, you rationalize that you're doing it with your, or doing it for your kids, but if you're really honest with yourself, a lot of it is for yourself. Yeah. Like if I wanted, and my YouTube is like 1% of my audience. Right. But all of the fame comes from the people recognizing you from YouTube like 99.

Like is that the

[01:03:54] Ryan Holiday: sound of Jordan Harbinger's voice? I hear it

[01:03:56] Jordan Harbinger: that that does happen, but it's pretty rare. Yeah. And I know friends who are YouTubers that have like millions of subscribers and they make a fraction of what a podcaster makes sure is a big audio audience. But you can't even go to like Starbucks with them without people being like, whoa, I can't believe it's you guys.

And they have a meetup and like 600 people show up and they thought maybe like 30 people are gonna show up. It's like a real thing. My team was like, you know you can build that. You have all the raw material, you just need to start doing your shows in person. They need to be a little bit longer. You need to pick these certain controversial guests to sprinkle in.

'cause they get a lot of clicks. You go, I think we talked about this on your show. Like, oh, I'll make extra money and I can really, like I can send our kids to school and do this. Yeah. Now I'm forgetting what we talked about on your show and what we've already talked about here, but you really do rationalize it.

The problem is it's never enough to fill the hole, the fame. Here's something we definitely haven't talked about. The fame is, it's a weirdly intoxicating thing. Before I had any money, I didn't really care about being wealthy. I just thought like, if you're well off, you win. Sure. Which is true by the way, but then you get some money and you go, wouldn't it be cool if also I was recognizable on your show?

We talked about those rich people that it like suddenly want to be YouTubers, and it's like, what are you doing? Yeah. Don't get me wrong, Beyonce is famous. I'm just a podcaster. But you really start to, it's like this insidious. Hole in your soul. And when you think about it, it's like I drilled the hole in my soul that could be filled with, well, not just that you drilled it,

[01:05:19] Ryan Holiday: but then you're actively drilling it bigger.

[01:05:22] Jordan Harbinger: Deeper. Yeah. So

[01:05:23] Ryan Holiday: there's this weird thing where like it's somewhat strange to be recognized. Yeah. It's uncomfortable. There's some safety or privacy concerns that come along with it. Yeah. And then what do you do? You don't wake up and try to make yourself more anonymous. You wake up and you try to make yourself more famous.

Yeah. So there's something fundamentally irrational about it. Yeah. It doesn't really do anything. It is weird. It sort of snuck up on me because my books have been popular for a long time, but authors have a. Relatively anonymous life. Like how many people make it to the end of a book? How many people even know the name of the author, let alone like flash forward to see the picture at the back?

Right. So yeah. And they all blur together and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I never got, right, and then the social media stuff happened and all of a sudden people are like, oh, you're that guy. There's been advantages to it for sure.

[01:06:08] Jordan Harbinger: But like what I, I'm curious. Well, look, besides ego, what is it? What, okay, so for da,

[01:06:12] Ryan Holiday: I'll give you an example.

So for daily sto, we used to just like post quotes every day. And then when it would come time, I'd be like, Hey, I have a book coming out. People would be like, who the fuck are you? Yeah. You know, like, or when I would want to talk about something that I thought was important, people would be like, well, what are the quotes?

Daily STO was supposed to not be about me. And it ended up actually needing to become about me to say and communicate the things that I wanted it to communicate. And especially as more and more people just sort of ripping off what we were doing right. And so I noticed that there's like 10 Stoicism podcast now.

Yeah. It's, it's hilarious. It's like

[01:06:46] Jordan Harbinger: the weekly stoic, the biweekly stoic, whatever.

[01:06:49] Ryan Holiday: But anyways, when someone knows who you are and they trust you and they like you, they'll hear what you have to say. So there's a reason. It's a form of power that Mm-Hmm. Can be used to do things that you want to do. Just there comes at a cost also.

[01:07:05] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I noticed you never show your kids' face on social media. Yeah. And when Jen and I were talking, she'll sometimes go, oh my God, this is so cute. And she'll send me a photo and she's like, you should post that. And then she's like, oh, wait, no, no, no, no, no. Yeah. And I never would. I mean, mm-hmm. The only way she posts all of our family stuff and she's got a private whatever, we have to be like

[01:07:23] Ryan Holiday: accepted.

Yeah. So, so there's like little downsides like that. Yeah. And then there's also just not good. It's a corrosive power also though, right? You can identify with it. And, and it's funny, this is like, again, one of the themes in Mark Lewis's meditations is he's like, I. He's this powerful guy that's worshiped as a God.

mm-Hmm. And part of what he's trying to do there is remind himself that he's not special, that it doesn't say anything about him. That being recognized doesn't mean anything. He's just cheering and clapping is the smashing of hands together, or the clacking of tongues. And he also tries to look at, he's like, let's talk about some of the most famous people of all time.

How famous are they now? How many people remember that? He'll run through the names of like really powerful, important people from like the court or two before his. And he'll be like, these are vaguely familiar at best Now. Mm-Hmm. I think as long as you're doing it because you have, it's a means to an end.

It can be okay if you're doing it because you think it's helping you achieve immortality. Yes, exactly. Or because it fills some hole in your soul, you know, you're not, you're probably going the wrong direction.

[01:08:23] Jordan Harbinger: I always try to think about it like, the most famous person that my mom had heard of growing up is somebody that you and I will have never heard about.

Yeah. I can't even imagine who that person might be. You know those things that make all your parents feel old, like when they go, oh, that's like so and so, and you're like, who? Yeah. Even now it's starting to happen to me where I'm like, oh yeah, this is like this person. And I'm not talking about like Charlie Chaplin, I'm talking about Yeah.

Somebody who I think is reasonably current and. I'll be talking to somebody who's like 29 and they just go, who is that again?

[01:08:56] Ryan Holiday: Yes.

[01:08:56] Jordan Harbinger: And I have to explain who this person is and I realize I am the weirdo. It's not that this person is profoundly disconnected from history, it's that they don't have any clue who like Audrey Hepburn was, which is also before my time.

This is the beginning of the absolute fading of that person in the zeitgeist or the cultural memory. And this is a super famous person, which you have no, this is when there was a handful of famous people at any given time. Now there's a gazillion podcasters and YouTubers and musicians and whatever else.

You're just gonna blend into the cacophony of that, even if you're an A-list film celebrity right now. Which you're

[01:09:29] Ryan Holiday: not. Which you're not. I remember when I was first starting and I worked with a bunch of different authors, you know, every once in a while I'd meet someone and they'd be like, they'd done like a book.

They'd sold a million copies. But it'd been like eight years before, or nine years before their new one was coming out and nobody cared. Sometimes that was due to decisions that they'd made, but over a long, you, you stretch it out long enough. It happens to everyone. Yeah. And just realizing that this force is acting on you and that you're, there's this statue of Marcus Aurelius outside Budapest.

I was really struck by it because I think it embodies a very stoic idea. So it's a statue of Marcus realist, but they noticed that the head is removable and what they discovered is that there are a lot of emperors. Interesting. So they didn't wanna have to carve a new statue every time. So this is an ancient statue?

This is an ancient statue. I was gonna say, I promise they uncovered it, you know, dug deep in Oh, okay. I was gonna say they excavated, it's in a museum. How did they not make it a Stalin statue? And, and what they discovered that, even back then, what the Romans would do is they were like, look, we're not gonna carve a 15 foot statue every time.

It might not even be done by the time this guy's dead, dead. There was one year, there's a year called the, the year of the five emperors. Right. And so like there, there was just a lot, or it was four. Anyways, the point is. They were like, you're the most famous, important, powerful person in the world, but you know what?

You are replaceable. Yeah. Literally in this case. And, and when you go, we're just gonna pop the head off, carve one of the new guy, and that's how this is gonna go. And that's what's happening to all of us. Right. Like you're the number one podcast for a brief moment, and then you're not the number one podcast, and then podcasts are not even a thing anymore.

That's right. And it's this relentless, merciless process by which you are slowly, inevitably made irrelevant by time and age and indifference. And some of us may have blips that last longer than others. Mm-hmm. But it happens to all of us. And for those few exceptions, like the fact that I'm talking about Marcus Realis, or mentioned Charlie Chapman or Katherine er, or whatever.

You know what good it does them to be remembered. Zero. Yeah. Zero. They're fucking dead. Dead. They're taking zero enjoyment out of it right now. They didn't get any pang of validation that their name has survived. How do you think it makes Alexander the great feel that Alexandria is still a city with hundreds of thousands of people?

That true, and he founded that city. It doesn't mean anything to him. He died a horrible death, needlessly premature because his ambition was endless and his men wanted to go home and he died there, and that was the end of that story. It's been a part of other people's stories since, but it did him zero.

Good.

[01:12:05] Jordan Harbinger: How did he die? I don't even know actually.

[01:12:07] Ryan Holiday: Well, there's one theory is that his men killed him because they were like you said, we would go home once we got here, and he didn't want to go home. Right. He

[01:12:16] Jordan Harbinger: wants to keep going. And then

[01:12:16] Ryan Holiday: the other one is he caught this like weird disease and it paralyzed him and basically snow white for like a number of days.

He was alive in like in a coma. But he could hear and comprehend what was happening. Oh my God. It was like, it's a particularly gruesome death. It's like a, then there's some other ones, but he died and then he's gone. Yeah. And as Marcus writes in meditations, he's like, Alexander the Great and his mule driver both died, were both buried in the ground.

The same thing happened to both of them, which is that they became worm food. Mm-hmm. You know? And so there's something, I think humbling and clarifying about that, does that mean nothing matters that you should do nothing? No. It just means you have to figure out how to do it in a balanced way inside your life.

[01:12:58] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I think you're really, you're onto something. A lot of people who get caught up, my friends who are like making tons of money and stuff, they start going like looking at what they're gonna buy online. Even fantasy shopping. I was talking to my wife, 'cause one of my friends is selling this company for like hundreds of millions and he, I'm like, what are you gonna get?

Like, are you gonna get a plane or a boat or both? And it's fun to think about. And I was telling my wife, I was like, yikes, probably never gonna get there. And not even headed towards that. Don't really care. And she's like. Yeah, I don't really think we need that. And I was thinking, what would I take in a fire?

My kids, my wife, maybe my laptop would be a little inconvenient, but I'm like, I don't really need that. Sure. My cats, I take my kids, my wife and my cats. I would stand in the street and watch my house burn down. I wouldn't even go back in for anything else. Even if I thought I could get it. What do I need?

I don't need any of that

[01:13:40] Ryan Holiday: stuff. The other thing is like, yeah, sure. You're not telling our company for a hundred million dollars. No. But like I bet I met you in 2012. If I was like, Jordan, I'm gonna tell you about a future in which 12 years from now, this is how many downloads your show is doing. Mm-Hmm.

This is what you're getting paid per year. This is how many years you'll have done it and have taken this much out of the business. You'd have been like, that is incomprehensibly lucky and plentiful. Yeah. And would be enough. And the problem is we get used to it and then we move the thing and it gets more like I wanted to write one book.

So I was like, if I could write a book, that would be so cool. And this is 16. Does that mean I should stop and just No, because what am I supposed to do with my time? Right. My. There's other things like my kids are at school, like I have time for myself also.

[01:14:27] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[01:14:27] Ryan Holiday: So I'm just trying to get to a place where, or what I think the struggle is, and there's not a lot of like resources and discussion about it.

It's like how do you do what you do and be good at it? But from a place of enoughness? Yeah. It's tough. It's easy to be like, Hey, I do this thing and I work on this thing and I compete at this level because this is my goal, or this is what I have to prove, or this is my number, the money I'm trying to make.

Or not even to think about this and do it more from a place of like, I'm gonna prove those people wrong. I'm gonna be the greatest ever. I'm gonna make the most, I'm gonna be the number one, the indisputed goat or whatever. That in some ways is easier because you're like, this thing is deciding what I do and how much of it I do and how much it takes outta me.

But to try to be like, I'm good at what I do. I care about what I do. Trying to do it well. I'm in the league, but I'm trying to do it from a motivational place that is not outcome dependent.

[01:15:28] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it is funny to look back historically on, you're right, when I first, not even when I first started halfway through, when I started the second iteration, when I started the Jordan Harbinger show from my previous show, kind of like unplugging things and plugging it back in.

I remember going okay and it was a very small number of what I thought I would need. Yeah. And of course, you know, that's like what you get in a week now or whatever. Yeah. But when I first first started, I remember I was an attorney before and I go, if I could make one half as much as I make as a lawyer doing this other thing that I love, that would be so awesome.

And of course now it's beyond that. And then you think, oh, but how do I double this? And it's just so silly because it, the way you double it is to ruin this thing that you love by doing it a hundred times more than you want to and

[01:16:12] Ryan Holiday: not seeing your family. I remember James Altucher said to me when she was like, you know, you don't have to put your money to work.

And I was like, what he was saying, like people are like, you gotta earn money and you're gonna put that money to work. Right? And then he is like, and then you gotta buy a house. And he just gotta appreciate, his point was like, you could also just make money and then live. It doesn't have to be this thing that you're building or accumulating.

Look, some people don't have this problem at all, and some people don't have this impulse at all. But then I think people are hearing this probably do relate to it. Yeah, I think so. Where you have a business and revenue of the business is X, so next year it should be x plus 20%. Mm-hmm. Right? And if it's 90% of X, then you're going in the wrong direction and you're failing.

[01:16:53] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[01:16:53] Ryan Holiday: And so like it becomes this thing of comparing instead of just like, Hey, this is what I do and I'm gonna show up every day and do it and do it well. And obviously if it makes no money or if it's like losing money, you're probably not sustainable. But it's equally unsustainable to grow at an infinite level for an infinite amount.

I am trying to sort of free myself from expectations. I don't have sales goals on my books anymore. Really. I don't have like bestseller list goals. I wanted to reach as many people as possible and I do the things required, but I have tried to get the sort of hunger out of it. That's amazing. I would love, I mean that's, how did you do that?

Well, part

[01:17:34] Jordan Harbinger: of it is doing it once, like winning one gold medal and realizing your life isn't completely changed. Yeah. That, that's

[01:17:39] Ryan Holiday: helpful. I mean, I remember when Obstacles Away hit number one for the first time. I was like mowing my lawn or something. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm like, oh, okay, what does this mean?

Nothing, you know? Yeah. Okay. So stillness is the key. It was my first book to hit the New York Times of So, and it, it debuted at number one and so I was like, holy shit, I've done it. Yeah. So then as I've done these other books. You have to make these different decisions. Like, Hey, do you wanna go on a book tour?

Why do you go on a book tour? It's because it spreads the sales around and then it helps for the list better. Right? Oh, okay. But that requires being gone for a long time. Or I have my own bookstore, I have Daily Stoke, has a store. I can sell my books directly to the readers. Mm-Hmm. Which is better in some ways financially, but also then it, there's a direct relationship between you and the people.

So I can be like, when I have a new one, I can be like, Hey, hear about this one. Yeah. Right. But literally, every time I do this, the publisher goes, but you know, that's gonna hurt your chances to be on the best seller list because you're

[01:18:33] Jordan Harbinger: supposed to spread them out.

[01:18:34] Ryan Holiday: You're supposed to spread them out. And then the New York Times list, I think, understandably, when I report, Hey, I sold 30,000 copies of my own book from my store.

They're like, did you though? Yeah. Yeah. So like, that makes sense, right? I was like, oh yeah, but my goal is not to do that. It doesn't mean I've done it. It didn't change my life in any considerable way. And by doing it this way, I am cultivating a more sustainable relationship with the audience that allows me to then just be like, Hey, I have a thing you want to here.

So anyways, the point is how do you set up your life in the way you run your business, your career or whatever that it is as independent of other people and institutions as possible. Yeah. That's where you want to get. Yeah, because then you can just do the thing 'cause you like doing the thing. And if other people like doing the thing, then it can be financially sustainable.

But it, it's not run through the, think about it, it's like you make this great movie and you put it out, but if you want it to win an award, you have to do the award season campaign. You have to go to the things, you have to send it out to the people. You have to buy a, it's a process. And the second you decide that that thing is meaningful to you.

You are accepting the obligations of doing that thing or the disappointment of not getting the thing because you didn't do the process.

[01:19:52] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, man, I, I find this, this is really helpful because the whole comparison thing, right? It's the thief of joy and all these awards that you can get for books are like sales goals and little press release things.

Look, that stuff can be motivating I guess. But for me, usually it's like four o'clock in the morning I get up to pee. I don't need to be motivated. Then yeah, that's called anxiety at that point. And I just find the, the negative comparison stuff, it kind of all, it blends together and it kind of cures almost like concrete or asphalt in a way that's really, you have to scrape it off your soul at the end and it's not good.

I was so much happier with podcasting before you could know how many downloads you had. Sure. There used to be this time where you would rent server space on like GoDaddy and they would go, oh yeah, this file was access. Like there was no stats dashboard. You'd just have to look at how many MP three files were downloaded over a 30 day period and it would be like 80% partial downloads because that's, the files are long and you had no idea what that really meant.

And you go, okay, and then there were 40,000 full downloads. Does that mean it's 40,000 people? And then they would explain to you that you can't really tell yeah, how many unique people it was without doing like some sort of complex calculation that they aren't gonna do for you. And you go, oh, okay. Well I guess since I like it, I'm just gonna keep doing it.

I was so much happier when that was it. Now you can look every minute and there's UpToDate statistics and it shows you where your rank is compared to somebody else. Like this is like the most unhealthy way to do something you love.

[01:21:20] Ryan Holiday: It really is. I, I've said before, I think with my first book I was like 90% like, how's this gonna do?

That determines my happiness. Yeah. And 10%, like I think I wrote a good book. I'm really proud of it. I think I flipped it. Yeah. That's great. Or I think it's been a process. Getting towards being close to saying that I flipped it. That's where I'm trying. Would I be disappointed if it sold zero copies? Of course.

Right. Like, and that would also be, people would be upset with me because I'd would've publish it with someone, you know? Right. You would've failed people who have like invested in you. I understand that. Yeah. And it also decreases the chances of my ability to do it again. To do the next book, that it changes the resources that I have available, the time I have allotted, you know, it, it changes things.

I just try to channel that energy towards doing the thing. Well

[01:22:03] Jordan Harbinger: that's true, right? You're, once you're at the top tier author level, you're still getting paid for talks. It's still worth it for you to write another book. You already have a topic. I know you have the next like four, three or

[01:22:11] Ryan Holiday: four books. This is a four book series.

So I have like another, that's the other reason I'm not thinking about how this one is do gonna do, 'cause like actually what I'm thinking is like every minute that I'm spending traveling to promote or doing was, I'm like, I could be working on the thing. Do you take a

[01:22:26] Jordan Harbinger: break between books?

[01:22:27] Ryan Holiday: This one I took two years on instead of one year.

Like I, I decided to take extra time just to be around more and to just slow down a bit. But I try to always, as soon as I finish a book, start the next one really not. 'cause I have to always be working, but because to me, wow, being in the process is I write books. I'm not in it to publish books. Does that make sense?

Yeah, it does. The, the, this is the accidental byproduct of doing a bunch of research, the thing that I do. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. And that, that's the enoughness fullness place as opposed to like, no, no, no. What I do is book launch parties. Yeah. That's actually the culmination of it is the call from the agent that says, Hey, here's where the first week sales numbers came in and here's where you rank.

That's, to me is like this extra thing that's like getting the bill at the end almost. Yeah. It's not a negative, but like that's like I was here for dinner. Yeah. You know, like I enjoyed the meal.

[01:23:24] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I like that. I like that outlook. I always learn a lot from you, whether or not I'm reading your stuff over at the daily dad@dailydad.com.

That's my major Ryan Holiday fix is daily dad stuff. That's

[01:23:33] Ryan Holiday: my favorite thing to write, is it really?

[01:23:34] Jordan Harbinger: You always text me about it, which I appreciate. I do. Yeah. And I, I appreciate you, man. And I know that sounds creepy actually when people say that, but I mean it. And, uh, thanks for having me over the painted porch as well.

Yeah, thanks for coming. If you're looking for another episode of the Jordan Harbinger Show to sink your teeth into, here's a trailer for another episode that I think you might enjoy.

[01:23:53] Clip: I was walking from one hotel to another quite late at night. I was, I was at a magic convention in Wales. I was wearing a three piece of velvet suit.

'cause why not? 'cause why not? So this guy is, you know, he is really drunk and he is, uh, clearly yeah. Looking for a fight. And he, he's with his girlfriend and he's all his adrenaline's kind of, you know, up here. And he starts shouting at me and says something like, what are you looking at? Or What's your problem?

Or something in that situation you can't respond with, oh, I'm not looking at anything. 'cause then you are on the back foot and they've got power or, yeah, I'm looking at you. What's your problem? 'cause I, either way, you're, you're gonna get hit, but you can just not play that game right from the outset. So I said, the wall outside my house isn't four foot high.

So his reaction to that is a bit of a pause. He's like, what? The wall outside the house isn't four foot high. When I lived in Spain, the walls there were quite high, but here they're tiny. I mean, they're nothing so, so he then he just went, oh fuck, and started crying. His girlfriend walked off and he sat down by the side of the road.

I sat down next to him and started asking about what had gone wrong that night. I think his girlfriend had bottled somebody. There'd been some fight and really that I'm giving him. Giving him advice. I was talking to a friend of mine about this thing, and he, um, he's an artist and he used to walk home from his studio late at night through a rough bit of London, and there were always these kind of like gangs on one side of the road.

So he'd always cross over away from them. Of course, they'd always see that, and it's always this horrible, uncomfortable, intimidating thing. So we spoke about it and then the next night he crossed over the road to them and, uh, said good evening as he walked past them. And of course they left him alone because he just seemed like a strange Yeah.

I don't touch the, he's crazy. He's just, he's just weird. Yeah. Um, who wants to see a magic trick? Yeah.

[01:25:41] Jordan Harbinger: For an inside look at the levers in our own brain alongside Darren Brown, one of the world's most legendary illusionists and mentalists. Check out episode one 50 of the Jordan Harbinger Show. All things Ryan Holiday will be in the show notes@jordanharbinger.com.

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