997: Christopher Ahn | A Marine in Kim Jong-un’s Crosshairs Part Two

997: Christopher Ahn | A Marine in Kim Jong-un's Crosshairs Part Two

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[00:00:00] Christopher Ahn: Coming up next on the Jordan Harbinger show. I thought we were cool. And then two weeks later, I get a phone call from the agent saying like, Hey, I just need to let you know that North Korea has discovered your identity and we have confirmed reports that they are going to try to assassinate you.

[00:00:24] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On the Jordan Harbinger Show. We decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker through long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers and performers, even the occasional economic hitman, gold smuggler, national security advisor, or music mogul.

And if you're new to the show or you wanna tell your friends about the show, and I always appreciate it when you do, I suggest our episode starter packs. These are collections of our favorite episodes on persuasion, negotiation, psychology, geopolitics, disinformation, and cyber warfare, crime and cults and more.

They'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit Jordan harbinger.com/start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started today. Part two, with Christopher on who broke into an embassy to rescue North Koreans who wanted to defect a crazy story. If you have not heard part one yet, you're gonna wanna go back and do that.

This is part two. Also. Later on during the episode, his lawyer Neon Rim, makes an appearance of when you hear the female voice that is her. She's his attorney taking on this, this crazy case and trying to keep him out of prison and out of harm's way and away from North Korean agents who want to kill him.

She's got a work cut out for her. Here we go with Christopher on. The story of the Madrid Embassy mission. I would love to hear a little bit about how this went down because I think first of all, when this hit the news, everybody read that story and did a double take, like wait. People broke into the embassy in in Spain, the North Korean embassy.

Is this real? I almost thought this didn't happen. It almost sounded like one of those click Beatty pieces that turns out to be fake news, and I just assumed this would evaporate, turn into a big nothing burger and go away, but that is not what happened. Tell me what happened.

[00:02:14] Christopher Ahn: I went there because people were asking for help.

There really isn't so much more in terms of motivation other than that. When we got there, we were supposed to be in and out very quickly and things happened and we needed to make sure that we were putting the people who we were trying to help safety as paramount. And then after that, obviously our safety.

The people who went there to help them with me included, was doing this because these people were, were in a very desperate situation. If you are a North Korean official and you were raised, uh, in a privileged position in North Korea, and you're essentially told you're entire life that North Korea is the best, and you, you live your life surrounded with propaganda that basically says that like where you are is where you need to be because it's the best, and you should feel lucky for where you are.

You're a Korean person and we're the best in the world. And then they go to these countries in the west, the West, and they're surrounded by the reality of the fact that their entire life has been a lie. These people are put in a position where you have to deal with the fact that what do you do with this information?

You grow up your entire life with a specific perspective. A way you want to, to live your life in a privileged position. And then you go somewhere and you, and you learn that everything is a lie. And you know this better than I do. Mm-Hmm. Um, the, the people in the embassy, they have to fend for themselves.

They go there and they have to earn money by doing the most menial things because they, they can't survive without it. They get busted selling heroin. Yeah. And stupid crap like that. Yeah. Like

[00:03:58] Jordan Harbinger: diplomats, like,

[00:03:58] Christopher Ahn: because they're bringing things in through like their diplomatic pouches and stuff. And so none of the stuff that they can do is on scale or anything like that.

They're just kind of living hand to mouth. They're living this life where there's this stark contrast of how, what they were told, how they were raised, and now being surrounded in a world that is a complete contradiction to that. These are North Korean officials. We can go on and on about how terrible North Korea is.

These are also just people who have the same motivations that you and I do. We want make our lives better for those who we care about the most. And when they're in that situation, what are they supposed to do? It's not like they can go to an American Embassy and just say like, Hey, I don't want to do this anymore.

Like you can't do that. Like their entire life was about that America and the West is the enemy and. We all know that they leave behind human collateral. So if they do something that's against the regime or they do anything that is considered not proper, then there is some heavy consequences that they're going to be facing.

And then oftentimes it's not even going to be them, it's gonna be their family members.

[00:05:05] Jordan Harbinger: Right. So for people who maybe don't know what you're exactly referring to, diplomats from North Korea have to go abroad and leave a spouse, a child, their parents, whatever, back in North Korea. And the unspoken or possibly very explicit deal is if they defect those people go to prison and die there.

[00:05:25] Christopher Ahn: That whole thing and how that revolves led down the path to when that choice was given to me. When that phone call came and said these people, they have nowhere to go. Their fate if they continue down the road that they're on is sealed. If they try to defect, then they're either gonna be executed or the people back in North Korea are going to be executed, or they just resigned to their fates and just go back to North Korea and knowing the fact that their children and their grandchildren and their great-grandchildren are going to be in that life, living in North Korea when there is this whole world of opportunity and a better life for them out there.

In a weird way, it's a very common immigrant story, just with the stakes turned up all the way. Mm-Hmm. As high as you can get.

[00:06:14] Jordan Harbinger: That makes sense. You're essentially thinking, I need to help these people. I need to rescue these people. They can't escape on their own. Is the best idea then to say, what if they didn't escape?

What if they were kidnapped? Is that kind of the idea behind this? I

[00:06:27] Christopher Ahn: think you're starting at a position with that question that I came up with the plan, or that I was involved with creating that plan. Mm-Hmm. Like I showed up that morning. Oh, okay. The way that this works is that like in the past and in every other kind of activity that I, you know, helped out with, they would send me a message saying, Hey, we need your help.

And I would say, okay, let check my schedule, see what I can do. And I. I would perform in the way that I expected to perform there, and then we'd call it a day, and then I'd go back to living my life. When they originally asked me, I, I actually said, no, I didn't have time That weekend, I, I was involved with a startup and we had some meetings with some possible investors.

I'm just a normal guy, right? Like I'm not running around trying to raise a rebellion for North Korea and stuff. Yeah, no time for an embassy raid. Look, right? I'm just the guy, right? And so the call came in, so I moved some things around and then I bought some plane tickets and I showed up. And when I showed up that day, that's the day that they briefed me on what was happening, what the requests were, what the plan was.

And

[00:07:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: then off we went. So up to that moment, you didn't know exactly what was going to happen. No. You arrived saying, I wanna be of service. Yes. And when I get there, they're gonna tell me what the plan is. Yes. They told you the plan and then you said, okay. Yes. Got it. And then what happened?

[00:07:50] Christopher Ahn: And again, I wanna make sure that I'm very clear in the fact that like I am not trying to distance myself from free Choan whatsoever.

I never considered myself some kind of hard carrying member or that I'm on like the team to create like what the group's gonna do and which missions we decide to do and whatnot. Like, I'm as much of a member of Free Choan as I am a member of Habitat for Humanity. If I go out and help build homes over the weekend, does that make me a member?

I mean, I guess, right? But like I'm not going and deciding what and how and things of that nature. Right? Yeah, that makes sense. So when the call for the Madrid operation came in, I. As I understand it, 'cause I wasn't on the planning of this, is that one of the main things that they wanted to prevent was something like that happening again.

That the family unit is able to be maintained and intact and that these parents aren't given this prisoner's dilemma kind of situation where they, there is no right answer and so those who were requesting the de defection and the team that was creating the plan had come up with the plan together because they felt that this would provide enough coverage so that the entire embassy would be able to leave without anyone being put in a position where they had to make this difficult type of choice.

That's one of the reasons why the type of activity was chosen, but at the same time, it's also because North Korea was noticing that diplomats were starting to disappear. Important people that they're sending is starting to disappear and there's no reason why. And so the more that you just continue to do this, the more suspicious it's going to look for everybody.

[00:09:31] Jordan Harbinger: So they don't know that these people are defecting in the moment. Correct. They just like, oh, this person's we haven't been able to get ahold of them. Correct. Or this person died. That's weird. Oh, this other person just died. What are the odds of that? Correct. Okay, so you can only do that for so long, right?

You get like two deaths before. It's a really obvious fake coincidence.

[00:09:49] Christopher Ahn: Again, I'm not the one who created this plan, but it made sense to me when I flew in that morning and they said, okay, here's the situation and here's the plan. Knowing what I had experienced in the past, knowing how much time and effort is taken, and the cooperation that's taken place at the time of all these defections, it made sense to me, right?

And when I arrived, I understood why they were asking me multiple times to come. Because this was a bigger operation than normal. You were asking a mass affection and that needed to be coordinated and there were gonna be multiple people who were scared, multiple people that were making this decision that we had talked about, and they wanted to make sure that if anyone starts getting too scared or kind of having an issue with whether panicking or whatever it is, that like I'm there to sit with them.

[00:10:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: When you say amassed affection, you're suggesting that multiple people in the embassy had expressed that they wanted to defect correct. More than one. Correct.

[00:10:48] Christopher Ahn: As I understand

[00:10:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: it,

[00:10:50] Christopher Ahn: when I arrived there in Spain, I was told that the entire embassy wanted two defect. All of them? Yes. Wow. Every single person in the building.

Yes. That's why

[00:11:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: that

[00:11:00] Christopher Ahn: something like

[00:11:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: this wouldn't make sense. Now, part of the interesting thing about this story is that it didn't go according to plan. Perfectly correct. My understanding, I would love for you to speak to this, is that there was at least one person who didn't quite go along with the plan.

How does that fit with the fact that everybody in the building wanted to defect? I can't tell you what that person was thinking. Obviously for the, everybody who doesn't know my understanding based on what's been in the media is that there was one woman in the building who, depending on how you look at things, either panicked and changed her mind, or didn't want to go along with the plan.

From the beginning, got to another room, I believe, jumped off of a balcony, ran to the street. I think she might've eventually found an ambulance. She was treated for some injuries, and then eventually called the police or had somebody call the police for her. And that's more or less where the mission started to go sideways.

Correct. So you are saying that this woman originally wanted to defect. But got a little spooked by the idea of going through with it. Correct. That's what I was told. Yes. So that's pretty common in your experience for people who are, I mean, it's a big leap to make your understanding of this is that in the moment she said, I, I don't know if I can go through it with this.

To me, for

[00:12:11] Christopher Ahn: someone to react that way when you're asking them to defect is par for the course. Yeah, I, it's totally understandable. And the idea was to go in, do our little act in front of the cameras to make sure that we've got enough cover in out bing bang boom. The North Korean embassy is a house, and when I say a house, I mean like a driveway.

They got a little basketball court on the side, like it's a house. There's no guards, there's no people who are trying to keep it safe or anything like that. There are just people who live in there who do illegal activities to pay the bills and pay for their food. And when we went in to do it, we didn't break down doors.

We didn't hurt anybody.

[00:12:54] Jordan Harbinger: What does the North Korean embassy look like inside? I'm not picturing an opulent circumstance.

[00:12:59] Christopher Ahn: Yeah. I gotta tell you, I didn't know what to expect, but I didn't expect what I saw, which was just like, it's just nothing. IKEA furniture. Ikea furniture, let's just, oh really? No, not that nice.

Oh my gosh, bro. You know what I mean? It sounds like a college experience. It was just like particle board garbage around. Everything was just like really bad. At one point, I went into the kitchen to grab some beverages or something so I can give it to them so that they're comfortable and stuff, and I opened up the refrigerator and it was nothing in there.

I remember that exact moment I opened up that refrigerator and I felt such sadness for these guys. Take away all the terrible things, but like these guys are living hand to mouth and they're supposed to be the elites and they can barely have food in the fridge. And I remember feeling like, wow, this is so sad.

To immediately thinking, oh man, it's gonna be great. Because tonight I actually, I put down a shopping list 'cause I was planning, after the embassy raid, I was gonna go to the supermarket and buy a bunch of food and stuff and do like a, like a barbecue or something like that so I can feed all these people.

And so I was getting excited, like they would go from the situation where there's no food in the refrigerator to giving them like a taste of like what their, what their life is going to be like. Yeah, try these

[00:14:24] Jordan Harbinger: ribs. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:14:25] Christopher Ahn: But yeah, there was like almost no furniture. There was like no carpet or anything like that.

So the walls are basically bare except for the propaganda stuff.

[00:14:34] Jordan Harbinger: But they, they put up the posters or whatever? Yeah,

[00:14:36] Christopher Ahn: yeah. Like the pictures of Kim Sung and, and, and Kim Jono, like, they're, they're all there. If you walked in there, you would be like, this is crazy. Wow. Look at this stuff. And that's exactly how I felt.

But that's it. There's no like art or kids' drawings of what the kid did. There was just nothing there. And so it was very cavernous and echoey because it is like a nicer house. So there's lots of rooms and stuff like that, but it's just as, most things, it's just a facade. And inside there was just nothing.

[00:15:06] Jordan Harbinger: So the cops come to the door and you're like, Nope. Nothing to see here. Yeah.

[00:15:08] Christopher Ahn: So the cops come to the door. Did you answer the door? Adrian answered the door.

[00:15:12] Jordan Harbinger: Did he put a pin on and pretend he was North Korean or something? Yeah. Yeah. Wow. That's pretty. He put a pin on and

[00:15:15] Christopher Ahn: told, and so like, after they went away, we were like, okay, great.

The people inside, they asked like, who's at the door? And we're not gonna lie to them. You know, we, you know, it's like, oh, it was the police. We say that, and you just see the color in their face just completely drop out. Right? Because they went from, well, like at first it's like this range of emotions, right?

Like, oh my God, we've been found out. Everything is a failure. Terrifying. Terrifying.

[00:15:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: And also, I would imagine a bit terrifying for you. Well, yeah, of course. I mean, course. What's going through your head at that moment? Well,

[00:15:44] Christopher Ahn: I mean, at, at that point, like, you know, I was trying to convince them that like, no, no, this actually plays in our favor.

At a certain point, they basically came to the decision that they didn't want to do this anymore, and what are we gonna do? We're not gonna force them, all of them. It was basically the word was passed down that like, it's not gonna happen.

[00:16:01] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. But also, like two people can't be like, I'm defecting because the other people will be like, no, I'm, then they have to tell, I mean, they're going have to tell exactly what happened.

Like, okay, so you got kidnapped, but they only took him and her out of this place. Exactly. That doesn't make any sense.

[00:16:14] Christopher Ahn: Yeah. So at, at, at a certain point, the main guy, he, he gives us the keys to the cars. He just says, Hey man, just, just go. We'll take care of it. So they decided,

[00:16:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: yeah. On their own, when they saw that things were going sideways that they did not want to go through with it.

Correct. And it trickled through the group. Correct. We're no longer gonna do this. Correct. But it was the guy who originally reached out who said, I'm changing my mind. Correct. Wow. Okay. And they're

[00:16:36] Jordan Harbinger: like, take one of our cars and just get outta here.

[00:16:38] Christopher Ahn: Well just take all the cars. Right. He didn't care. He just wanted us to leave.

Wow. 'cause they needed to kind of figure out like how they're going to explain this shit. So what happened was after the cops left, the phone starts ringing. Right. And there's multiple phones in the house and there's no furniture. And it's very cavernous. And it's not like we're gonna pick up the phone.

And so this phone just ringing and ringing and it echoing throughout the entire house and like it won't stop calling. And so if there was any kind of chance that we had to make it feel like, don't worry. We, we, we can do this. We got this. All we need to do is walk out that door and then everything's gonna be fine.

But then there's this ringing, constant echoing, ringing that's like constantly there.

[00:17:24] Jordan Harbinger: And they think it's for

[00:17:25] Christopher Ahn: Kim Jong-un calling to be like,

[00:17:26] Jordan Harbinger: why are you leaving?

[00:17:27] Christopher Ahn: Exactly. Yeah. Oh my gosh. It's like a horror

[00:17:29] Jordan Harbinger: movie,

[00:17:29] Christopher Ahn: dude. So I was working with, talking with the group, just asking them to that everything's gonna be okay.

And then the o other guys were working with the main guy to figure out the logistics of like, you know, how this new stuff's in situation and he's feeling unsure of whether he wants to do it and all this kinds of stuff. But my primary role was just to simply sit down with the rest of the folks there and kind of stew in the fear with them.

That's kind of how I want, I

[00:17:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: approached it. I just have to ask one thing, which is it came out after the fact that one subplot of the raid of the mission was that some assets were taken from the embassy.

[00:18:06] Christopher Ahn: Yes, yes.

[00:18:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: I believe there was at least one hard drive, at least one computer and a cell phone,

[00:18:10] Christopher Ahn: so I actually never touched any of that stuff.

Was that part of the cover? So they decide to, in order for this whole kind of ruse to be correct and believable, we left all the gear there and some of the guys, I guess took some hard drives or whatever

[00:18:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: and then we left. That was part of the cover? Correct. Was there any aspect of that, that Free Joon maybe wanted to have those assets a hard drive to find out what's on it or to do anything with?

[00:18:37] Christopher Ahn: Not that I know of. If they did, then I wasn't aware of that. It was never told to me in the beginning of the plan that we were going to be taking out stuff like that. Got it. Right. It was always just about the people getting in and getting out. Take us out of the embassy. Yeah. How did you get outta it?

Let's tell the rest of that story and then we'll talk. Yeah. I mean, so I, I, I can't get too much into it, but at the end of the day, what, what happened was he basically said like, look, this isn't gonna happen. This is the chief diplomat. Correct. He said, it's not gonna happen. Take the cars and leave. We'll figure it out on our own.

And we came to, it's not even a decision, it's just like that's what it is now. We're not gonna force these guys to leave. So we get into the cars and we leave and we are concerned that with the phone calls, there are North Koreans in Spain, there's a lot of North Koreans in Spain, and why it's their hub for European like illicit activities.

There's a 60 Minutes Australia episode where the reporters of the investigative reporters, um, acted like they were arms dealers. To go buy arms from North Korea and they go to Spain. And Spain is where they go and do all the deals. You know, if you watch the episode there, like they actually get invited to go to North Korea.

There's that dude,

[00:19:49] Jordan Harbinger: Alejandro Cow Enos

[00:19:50] Christopher Ahn: or

[00:19:50] Jordan Harbinger: whatever, who's like their little

[00:19:51] Christopher Ahn: stooge. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So like there's a lot of like, you know, North Korea doesn't have a, like a, like a gross domestic product or thing that they export. Right. They export guns and ammunition and weapons, drugs, slave labor and slave labor and stuff.

So, and some primo propaganda post. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so, you know, a lot of that stuff happens in Spain and so we leave and we kind of understand that there may be North Koreans who are, have become suspicious, like that's who's calling probably who are suspicious of what's going on. And that there could be a possibility, you know, that there are gonna be North Koreans who are going to descend onto the embassy to find out what's going on.

Then from there disseminate out to go look for us. Right. We don't know

[00:20:37] Jordan Harbinger: like so that's scary as hell. 'cause these are not like students studying abroad and Correct. These are gangster. Correct. Or intelligence agents or whatever. Correct. Operating on behalf of North Korea and they're possibly driving there at breakneck speed to find out why there's nobody answering the phone.

Exactly.

[00:20:52] Christopher Ahn: One thing led to another where I found a cab and I convinced the guy to take us to Portugal. That's like a six,

[00:20:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: seven hour drive. Yeah. So you guys all scatter in the wind.

[00:21:02] Christopher Ahn: So we all scatter. And then the idea was to meet back up in the states and everyone was supposed to meet in New York where they were going to basically, you know, debrief, go over what went right, what went wrong, and kind of lament over the fact that it didn't go well.

I, however, had that investor meeting that I had pushed back, so I didn't go to New York. I flew directly back to Los Angeles.

[00:21:23] Jordan Harbinger: How do you do an investor meeting after that? You're just like, well, seriously, let me just take my

[00:21:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: embassy raid hat off. Yeah. Put my, how do you venture capital hat on? How do you, even the plane ride home alone.

Yeah. Would be so bizarre. Yeah. What's going through your head? I mean,

[00:21:35] Christopher Ahn: like, look, I mean, I'm not gonna deny any of those like feelings feeling weird. Of course. Like the answer to that is yes. Across the board. I, I, I came back to LA and went back to living my life. I'm just being the normal dude that I am.

[00:21:52] Jordan Harbinger: You are listening to the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest Christopher on, we'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Dell and a MD Dell Technologies has just dropped the cybersecurity tapes, which is a new podcast series that dives into today's biggest cybersecurity challenges. And I know that sounds a little bit technical, but this is a really good format to teach cybersecurity because it's story based.

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[00:25:17] Christopher Ahn: Yeah, so, you know, Adrian calls me after the debrief that he has with everybody in New York and he says like, Hey, um, we're gonna go talk to the FBI about this to make sure that they know what's going on. And by the way, one of the things that we did as soon as we left the embassy was we wanted to make sure that the North Koreans there were going to be as safe as we we can possibly be.

And so someone from the group sent the Spanish government at another, like their ministry of, or their, their version of the state department sent an an email or a note to their state department that said like, look, we were involved in something that happened at the North Korean embassy. We can't really get into it, but their lives are in danger.

And so if you see people coming in from North Korea specifically for these North Koreans at the embassy, please be aware that their lives could be on the line and that, and it's a very dangerous situation. So we tried to warn the Spanish government about what's going on. When we came back, Adrian went and talked to the FBI and the FB.

I asked Adrian if they could talk to other people who were involved. He asked me like, would you be willing to talk to the FBI? And I said, yeah, sure. Like I don't got nothing to

[00:26:26] Jordan Harbinger: hide. Oh, no, you didn't get a lawyer first,

[00:26:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: huh? Yeah. You know, and so, no, but that's interesting because that means that what's going through your head is, I haven't done anything wrong.

I did anything wrong. I've tried to help. Correct. It didn't go the way we wanted. Correct. And if I can help the FBI and give them some information, I'm happy to do that. Correct. I totally

[00:26:42] Jordan Harbinger: understand that line of thought. Except everything I learned in law school is don't ever do that. Right. No, I get it.

But I get it. It speak,

[00:26:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: it speaks to Christopher's state of mind at the time, which it speaks your state. I think a lot of people might not fully appreciate just based on the, the bullet points in the media. Sure.

[00:26:54] Christopher Ahn: And so, you know, they set up a date to come over and, um, the day before I had made, I think it was snickerdoodles, I had made some snickerdoodles the day before.

And so when the, like cookies. Cookies, yeah. Okay. And so when the FBI agents came in, I came in. I said, Hey, I made some snickerdoodles. Would you like some snickerdoodles? And I gave them some cookies and some coffee and stuff like that and we just cashed it out.

[00:27:14] Jordan Harbinger: Got it. So you'll make snickerdoodles for the FBI, but you arrive here empty handed, continue.

[00:27:19] Christopher Ahn: And you know, they asked me questions about stuff and I try to make it very clear that said like, look, the reason why I'm talking to you is because I wanna make sure the number one that like you understand that like we're all on the same team here. Right? I'm not trying to do something nefarious or anything like that.

These guys wanted to escape. They felt like they had no one else to turn to. They asked me to help. I wasn't asked to do anything illegal, right? I didn't hurt anybody. I didn't break into anything. Everything was voluntary. And I'm here to tell you that, like what happened. And so you can tell whoever you need to tell, that's what's going on.

And before we left, I said like, so is everything good? And the FBI guys were like, yeah. And I said, okay, cool. And went back to living my life. That must have been a relief

[00:28:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: to hear that

[00:28:05] Christopher Ahn: from you. Yeah, of course. I mean, honestly, like yes and kind of no. 'cause like I didn't really feel like I had anything to be afraid of.

[00:28:12] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, that's true. Right. So you're not even, you're, you're just like, well, I guess they closed the loop on that. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That's done. That

[00:28:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: chapter's done.

[00:28:18] Christopher Ahn: Yeah. That must have been, yeah, and it's not as if, like, the FBI didn't know the things that Adrian was doing and have a long relationship with him and, Mm-Hmm.

You know, and like they are in the know, so I'm just kind of like, they're double check to make sure that what they think they know is true. Because

[00:28:34] Jordan Harbinger: there's a point at which Spain's like, this is terrorism or whatever. Right. Yeah. Didn't they, they, they obviously didn't see it the same way.

[00:28:42] Christopher Ahn: Well, so I mean, I, the, the sequence of events from my perspective, 'cause I know that that occurred out, but I don't really know when exactly that occurred.

BI came over, I gave them the cookies that I made. We, we, you know, we shared and, and we hashed it out. And then. I thought we were cool. And then two weeks later I get a phone call from the agent saying like, Hey, I just need to let you know that North Korea has discovered your identity and we have confirmed reports that they are going to try to assassinate you.

[00:29:12] Jordan Harbinger: Oh God, I thought you were gonna say like, have you arrested in Spain? No. Wow. So they were just like, find these guys and kill 'em. Yeah. Holy shit. So the FBI

[00:29:19] Christopher Ahn: called me and said like, look, they know your identity. We have positive confirmed reports that they're going to try to assassinate you. So it's imperative that, number one, you stay in the United States, and number two, that you stay vigilant.

We don't think that anything's gonna happen here in the United States, but at the same time, we do know that there's North Koreans here and who knows,

[00:29:40] Jordan Harbinger: right?

[00:29:41] Christopher Ahn: So Steve locked

[00:29:41] Jordan Harbinger: the door. But yeah, that, that's terrifying. Yeah. All jokes aside, like that's you at this point. What's going through your mind? Well,

[00:29:48] Christopher Ahn: first thing is like my first reaction is like, what the fuck?

Yeah, right? Of course. And number two, how the hell do they know? Because every single time I've ever done this operation or helping doing defections or whatever, nobody knows my name. Like literally nobody knows my name. They may know where I come from. 'cause I'm like, yeah, I'm from California. Because it's kind of hard to, to hide the fact that I'm from California with the way I speak and everything.

So they know that I'm from California and I may be a guy named Steve. And so how do they know my identity? Yeah. And I told them, I said, the only people that know my identity is you. So how does Spain and North Korea or anyone know my identity when the only people that know my identity is you? The FBI?

Yeah. The FBI. Do

[00:30:30] Jordan Harbinger: you have any speculation as to how they found out then? Well,

[00:30:33] Christopher Ahn: I mean, I, I, I think I've learned just from reading the same things that you have, right? Like I haven't been privy to some kind of other information. Because from that point on, from this moment of the story on the only access that I have is the same access that you have.

[00:30:47] Jordan Harbinger: I can't guess how they figured out who you are either. Well,

[00:30:49] Christopher Ahn: from what I understand is that they, they basically cooperated with Spain. They gave my identity the

[00:30:55] Jordan Harbinger: FBI did. Correct. So they gave your identity to Spain who turns around and tells North Korea who you are. Correct. That is bananas. That's so.

Reckless of them knowing like, oh yeah, the guy who killed his brother. Yeah. You can leave all the names in the document that we're sending over. Yeah.

[00:31:10] Christopher Ahn: And so, you know, I asked them like, what do I do? They say like, well, you know, just stay safe. Thanks for the advice. How do you

[00:31:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: stay safe from North

[00:31:18] Christopher Ahn: Korea?

Yeah, exactly. So like, so now like if they know my identity, that means they know my mom's identity. Yeah. My grandmother's identity, my brother's identity, everyone that I'm associated with identity, I'm a private person in terms of like, I'm not like on social media all the time and doing whatever, but

[00:31:35] Jordan Harbinger: yeah, you're not some billionaire who can hide your bodyguards.

Exactly. I'm just a normal guy.

[00:31:38] Christopher Ahn: And so like, you want to look me up in the phone book or whatever, like, I'm gonna be there, right? Mm-Hmm. And so I felt the best thing that I could do at that moment was I have two options. I could either live my life in like perpetual fear and like lock up my entire family, or just accept that like I'm in the safest place in the world.

And the likeliness of them trying to hurt me or my family here on American soil is very, very low. It is low. And so I'm just going to kind of put up some ring cameras at my mom's house and just kind of make sure, like tell my mom and my dad just or my brother to kind of be extra safe and be aware of like their surroundings.

But

[00:32:18] Jordan Harbinger: yeah,

[00:32:19] Christopher Ahn: I'm not gonna tell them like North Korean assassins might, might be after you

[00:32:22] Jordan Harbinger: have a snickerdoodle.

[00:32:23] Christopher Ahn: Yeah.

[00:32:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. How much does your family know about what you were up to? Nothing. Nothing? Nothing. So what did you tell them? Well,

[00:32:30] Christopher Ahn: I didn't have time really to kind of tell them.

[00:32:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: Is this the first time you told them that you've been up to these extracurriculars?

No, I didn't

[00:32:36] Christopher Ahn: tell them that at all either at all. Right? So immediately after that, the phone call from the FBII call Adrian and I'm like, Hey man, what the hell is going on? Like, what are we gonna do? And I think like the day after that Adrian's name was in the paper saying that he was involved in this.

Next thing you know, reporters and all these people are flooding into Mm-Hmm. Where he lives trying to like, talk to him and, and get an interview from him or whatever, and hassling their family and stuff. And so like he, you know, he, he basically says like, Hey man, I, I gotta get outta where I am just for the safety of my family.

So he kind of packs up and leaves. Right. But before he goes, he kinda left everything and he gave me a spare key saying like, Hey, if like my wife needs to come and get something or whatever, can you hold the spare key for me? And I was like, yeah, sure. And then a couple weeks after the phone call, he calls me and he says, Hey, um, my wife is gonna be coming up to the, the house or the apartment.

Can you just be there to make sure that if someone's trying to hassle her, that you just kind of, you know, let her have some space and go with her inside the apartment, make sure everything's cool. Check for North Korean assassins inside. Yeah. You know, I mean, we gotta do this ridiculous stuff now, right?

So I'm like, yeah dude, no problem. So I go to the apartment just to kind of make sure everything's cool. He had sent me a bunch of these ring cameras because he was gonna get them for him and his family, and he asked me if I wanted one and I was like, yeah, sure, I'll take one. But when it arrived I was expecting like these doGet bell camera kind of things.

Right, right. And what showed up was like these super buff.

[00:34:08] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. You know,

[00:34:08] Christopher Ahn: flood lights, you know, like stuff Yeah. You got the

[00:34:10] Jordan Harbinger: outdoor

[00:34:10] Christopher Ahn: one. Yeah. This

[00:34:11] Jordan Harbinger: episode sponsored by SimpliSafe. Yeah. Keeping you safe from North Korean assassin Since 2017, and

[00:34:16] Christopher Ahn: I'm not, I'm not putting that up in my mom's house. There's gonna be a lot of questions that my mom's gonna be asking of why are you like lighting up the entire front yard and all that kind of stuff.

I just

[00:34:24] Jordan Harbinger: wanted it to

[00:34:24] Christopher Ahn: look like the

[00:34:25] Jordan Harbinger: DMZ.

[00:34:25] Christopher Ahn: Yeah. And so I was like, nah, I don't need this stuff. I'm just gonna get some like ring cameras and stuff. So he is like, all right, just drop it off at the apartment when, when my wife gets there. So I'm up there, I have all these boxes and stuff, and I open the door and when I go in, I.

Marshals are in there. US

[00:34:42] Jordan Harbinger: marshal

[00:34:42] Christopher Ahn: service, US marshals are in there. And like, I'm surprised 'cause like I wasn't expecting them and I don't know who the hell these guys are and they're not expecting me. And so I open the door, I walk in, we both kinda lock ice and I go like, who the fuck are you? Mm-Hmm.

Right? Yeah. And they lift their guns and say, who the fuck are you? And I say like, I am Christopher on, what are you doing here? And they come up to me and frisk me down. They ask me if I have any weapons and I have a concealed permit weapon license.

[00:35:14] Jordan Harbinger: Okay.

[00:35:15] Christopher Ahn: And I was told by the FBI, they're trying to kill me.

So I said, well, I think the, the pertinent thing to do is to make sure that I'm carrying my weapon. Sure. A real one this time. A real one this time. And so like when the marshals asked me if I have any weapons, I'm like, yeah, I do. I have a belly band holster kind of a thing. And that freaks them out. And so like one of the marshals puts like a gun to my head and it was just like, you fucking move and I'm gonna blow your fucking brains out

[00:35:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: and all this kind of stuff.

And I'm like,

[00:35:40] Jordan Harbinger: very professional.

[00:35:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: The irony that you were afraid of North Korea and then you go to your friend's apartment and now you're terrified of the US government is very interesting. Yeah.

[00:35:49] Christopher Ahn: And so like, you know, I'm telling them the same thing that you hear all the time that anyone who gets arrested is like, this is just a big misunderstanding.

Right, right, right. Sure. You know, like you gotta talk to whoever you need to talk to. Like, I just, that's who I sounded like. Right. But at the end of the day, I was like, there's no way. Like, this is just a big misunderstanding. Right. Like I told 'em like, look, I'm not gonna fight you with this. I'll go wherever you want to go, but like, go talk to whoever you're, you need to talk to.

Because, because they were waiting for Adrian.

[00:36:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Not you.

[00:36:14] Christopher Ahn: Yeah. And I thought that by that evening that I would be home with my wife, but it ended up me being in jail for three and a half months. I was down the street here at the MDC here in Los Angeles, and it's basically pretrial holding. If they can't trust you to get bail or whatever, then they hold you there.

[00:36:36] Jordan Harbinger: Did they think this is a flight risk because he is an international man Michigan? Yeah. I mean by

[00:36:40] Christopher Ahn: by definition, you know, at first I thought like this is just a big misunderstanding. And then I was originally told that my charges were aiding and abetting a fugitive. And I'm like, oh, well that's kind of obvious and easy to kind of disprove, so that should be fine.

I don't have a criminal record. If anything, I should be able to get bail. And when the time came to actually stand in front of the judge, like the actual charges that they had against me was like kidnapping and assault and all these crazy things. And I was given the charging document and I was able to see like what people said, like North Korean said, I hit them in the face and all this kind of stuff.

And at the time my hand was broken. And in all the pictures that you see in, in like this Madrid stuff, like you can see like peeking out of my hand that I have a soft cast on my hand. So like, I physically couldn't even hurt these people if I wanted to. So like none of the evidence really makes sense. So I just thought that like, oh yeah, you know, this is gonna be like pretty easy.

In and out Still no lawyer. Well, I mean, I had the public defender at the time. Okay. Okay.

[00:37:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: And can I just clarify something? I think a lot of people are gonna be wondering why are you being charged for these things in America For a crime? Yeah. That supposedly happened in Spain. Can you explain that?

[00:37:49] Christopher Ahn: Yeah.

So I'm not actually being charged with anything here in the States. Okay. Right. Like if you, if you pull up my, like a background check on me, which I've had to do 'cause I'm trying to find work and stuff like that. I, I need to know if anyone, like, if they pull a report, what's gonna show and like, nothing.

Maybe a parking ticket from maybe a decade ago, but like I'm a law abiding citizen, like I gotta conceal weapons permit. They don't just give those things out like candy out here. California, not California. California, that's for sure.

[00:38:13] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, man.

[00:38:14] Christopher Ahn: Yeah. So like, you know, there are multiple things that show that I'm like an upstanding citizen.

And it continues to be there, right? Like I have no record. What's actually happening is that Spain is trying to charge me with those charges based upon what the North Koreans have told them, and they are requesting the United States government to extradite me, to send me to Spain to stand trial for those accusations.

And for the threshold of whether or not the United States sends someone from here to whatever country is they have to. And that's the threshold, which is an extremely low threshold. It's a low bar. Yeah. And because of the fact that I've never denied being in the embassy in Spain, I've never denied being in Spain.

I've never denied any of that stuff. I've always just denied what happened inside, compared to what North Koreans have said.

[00:39:05] Jordan Harbinger: They're not worried that you are a flight risk now.

[00:39:08] Christopher Ahn: No, they are. But this took a long time and a million percent of credit of that goes to this amazing woman that's sitting next to me here.

Mm-Hmm. She was able to help the judge understand of the specific situation that I'm in and the fact that like there are so many things that like just don't match up and I don't really pose any flight risk. And so me getting the bail was a very difficult uphill battle. I think one time she told me that I had like less than a 1% chance Wow.

That I would get bail, but because the judge was able to listen. And understand what this whole situation is about and go deeper than the headlines and kind of understand. She decided to give me bail and that's why I was able to get out after three and a half months.

[00:40:02] Jordan Harbinger: And now you're waiting on what an extradition hearing.

Naomi, you're Chris', a lawyer, working on this case. How does Chris stand when it comes to extradition? What's he facing?

[00:40:10] Naeun Rim: Let me answer some of these questions. Yeah. So Chris is not charged in the United States with any crime. That's correct. Um, he's being charged in Spain, and to some degree that's unavoidable, right?

Because in Spain, North Korea has diplomatic relations. They have an embassy, and those people have told the Spanish government that they were somehow held against their will, right? So Spain has no choice but to bring criminal charges. What happens is that Spain then makes a request to the United States and says, we're bringing these charges against someone who's in your country, a citizen of your country, and we need you to extradite them.

To our country. Typically in federal court, they don't even bring charges unless they have that type of evidence. But here they really kind of have to honor what Spain is requesting. In our view. This is sort of where the original sin happens because at that point, a judicious discretionary decision could have been made internally in the executive branch understanding the situation.

At this point, the FBI's in contact with Adrian and, and even Chris, and knows what's going on and understanding the complicated dynamic where Spain thinks of North Korea as a legitimate embassy present government. Right.

[00:41:22] Jordan Harbinger: As opposed to a mafia state that will do and say anything.

[00:41:25] Naeun Rim: Correct. Right. And the United States understands that these people, the people who are in there trying to help the North Koreans escape, are now in mortal danger.

Some discretionary decision could have and should have been made that prevented everyone from being in this terrible situation. But for whatever reason, which we may never find out why a decision was made to institute extradition proceedings against Chris, against Adrian, perhaps others, they may be sealed extradition cases that we don't know about.

So the United States brings these extradition charges. Chris is the only one who is not in hiding.

[00:41:58] Jordan Harbinger: Everybody else disappeared.

[00:41:59] Naeun Rim: Exactly. Everybody else disappears. So, you know, he's not tried to avoid charges in Spain. He's going through a legal process that he's allowed to defend himself against in this country.

So he's here, he's always lived in the open. He's not tried to hide himself. He's not tried to escape. The problem is once you are in an extradition proceeding, there's very little chance of getting bail. It's very hard. It's not impossible, but the idea is that you're already in another country from the country that is charging you.

Of course we're not gonna give you bail. Um, and so that's sort of what, what Chris was talking about.

[00:42:33] Jordan Harbinger: This is the Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest Christopher on. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Shopify. Imagine you and Shopify as the ultimate gaming duo like Mario and Luigi conquering the digital marketplace together. Shopify is not just a platform, it's your loyal sidekick, boosting you through the levels from your first sale to your millionth shipment, and celebrating each victory with you.

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All the deals, discount codes and ways to support the show are at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. You can also search for any sponsor using the AI chat bot on the website. You can even email me and I'll send you the code. That's how important it is to support those who support the show. Now for the rest of my conversation with Christopher on, even the judge was like, Hey, I have to, by law, I.

Allow this to go forward, but I hope somebody overrules me, which I didn't practice for a very long time, but I don't imagine most judges say, I hope someone at a higher court overrules my decision. Correct. So doesn't happen. We

[00:45:26] Christopher Ahn: had the extradition hearing last year where we were able to present our case and we had ot, warm be's family come and testify on my behalf.

We had

[00:45:36] Jordan Harbinger: Otto Warm Beer, was the 20-year-old student who went on a tour, allegedly took a poster, ended up in a coma and passed away. Correct. In North

[00:45:44] Christopher Ahn: Korea, we had an amazing professor from Tufts University who was a, the premier kind of intellectual of what happens with in North Korea. He came out and testified on my behalf.

We had letters of supporters from Medal of Honor, uh, recipient to those within the previous administration. People I've worked with in charities and nonprofits, police officers, firefighters, and I think we got like 30 letters or something like that from government officials to charities and friends and all these people who are all considered quote unquote like upstanding Americans.

And the judge was able to see what this is, but unfortunately she's a magistrate judge that felt that she had to rule the way that she had to, but she was. Very kind to make sure that she also put her opinion and perspective in there as well.

[00:46:38] Jordan Harbinger: What's the fear right now is that you'll be extradited to Spain and that you'll either go to prison in Spain or that the North Koreans will try to kill you in Spain.

So the answer is both.

[00:46:48] Naeun Rim: So the quandary that we're in right now is that extraditions are usually not like this. This is a strange case, right? Mm-Hmm. And that's why Chris got bail. You have to prove extraordinary circumstances to get bail. In an extradition, usually we have an extradition treaty with a country we've agreed to have an extradition treaty with the United States doesn't have an extradition treaty with North Korea for a reason, right?

You vet the judicial processes and systems of other countries and you say, if you are not complying with due process, if you are, you know, torture friendly country, we're not gonna extradite people to your country and we're not gonna expect you to extradite people to ours. So here we have a situation where the United States has an extradition treaty with Spain.

Spain passes the smell test. But it's really a, a criminal case driven by North Korea. Mm-Hmm. Expand is a country that has its own justice system, but also has a North Korean presence. And not just a North Korean presence, but one that is known and has been confirmed in multiple investigatory reports as having connections to criminal dealings.

You know, I, I guess you can call it the under underworld. So that's why the judge in this case found an extraordinary circumstance. She determined that even though Spain has to take these North Korean witnesses at their word, the United States does not have to, and she does not believe that those statements were made voluntarily.

She believes that they were probably under some threat of death, some fear of their lives for

[00:48:10] Christopher Ahn: sure.

[00:48:11] Naeun Rim: And, uh, of course, I mean, how can any North Korean witness say, oh yeah, we plotted a fake kidnapping so we could defect, but then we changed our minds. Nobody's gonna say that because they're going to be killed or, and their families are gonna be killed.

That's the quandary we're in. But the issue is now Chris has bail, so that's a positive, but the negative is that the legal standard for extradition is so low, it's just probable cause. And we do believe actually there is room for the court to find. There is not probable cause. Right now the extradition case itself is over and so the magistrate judge has found that there is probable cause.

We're currently on what's called habeas, where we're asking a, a district judge who sits, uh, one tier higher to make a different decision on that ground. But the main argument that we're making is actually that there's a humanitarian exception to extradition. Sure. That has never, ever, ever been used, you know?

So there's two tracks to literally

[00:49:05] Jordan Harbinger: never,

[00:49:05] Naeun Rim: never.

[00:49:06] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. You're making history. Yeah. Well,

[00:49:09] Naeun Rim: that's what we're hoping for. Right. But every time this argument has come up, you know, it's usually come up in the context of, you know, Thailand's trying to extradite me for a drug crime, and they give death penalty there for drug crimes.

And so the US should have a humanitarian exception and not, and not send me there. And every time the US has said, no, it's too bad you broke a law in that country. You have to go there and face the consequences. Here it's very different because Chris is not afraid of Spain killing him. Right. He's afraid of North Korea killing him.

And North Korea has no treaty with the us. They don't have a history of abiding by international standards of decency. So it's a completely different threat. And the other main difference is that part of the reason Chris is in danger is because of decisions and actions the United States took. And so the United States cannot put their own people in danger.

That's part of the argument that we're making. And so that makes this kind of a unique case, but it's an incredibly difficult standard. It's one that we are pushing forward in, in front of the current case, and we'll see how it goes. But it's, um, never been granted before.

[00:50:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: An incredibly compelling Yeah.

Legal argument the way you've laid it out. Mm-Hmm. But because of the unique aspects of this case, it's, it sounds complicated and it sounds like you guys are kind of in uncharted territory to some degree legally.

[00:50:25] Naeun Rim: That's correct. I mean, any kind of extradition case like this. Well, I say there is no extradition case like this.

The court is not the only way that Chris can get out of the situation, right? I mean, that's one process that we are following, but ultimately this is up to the United States government. The Executive Branch, Spain can also make certain decisions that could end this sort of nightmare. I. And the fact that I'm here is very unusual.

I'm a defense attorney. I do not let my clients sit for interviews. I certainly don't participate in them.

[00:50:57] Jordan Harbinger: That was us ambushing you. So that's That's fair. That's fair. But this is

[00:50:59] Naeun Rim: a very unusual situation where there may need to be more public support for any kind of courageous decision to be made by whatever level of government.

And so that's one of the reasons why we're in this unusual situation.

[00:51:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: A judge involved in Kris's case, I believe it was Judge Rosenbluth said among many other things, even assuming AAN was acting at the direction of his country and not simply to help those trapped in an evil empire, which was one version of events.

That's only, but another reason why that same country shouldn't shove him into Kim Jong-un's grasping arms. And I believe the same judge went on to say yes on should have to face a court reckoning of some kind for possibly violating at least the letter of the law. But he should not be cast off to face an uncertain fate at the hands of a despot, perhaps sacrificed to advance a foreign policy agenda.

When you read opinions like that, does that give you hope and heart for the outcome in Kris's case? What do you take away from that?

[00:51:58] Naeun Rim: It's complicated. My reaction, of course, we would've wanted his extradition to have been denied for her to not have certified. But what I hear when I, when I hear that opinion and, and read her words, is the quandary of a judge who is dealing with a standard of laws that is not allowing her to do what she believes is just, and that she believes is necessary to save someone's life in terms of hope.

It kind of is a double-edged sword. I mean, I, she gave us the tools to convince a higher court that the outcome could be different. I. At the same time, this was also a judge who so very much wanted to do something to save Kris's life and to, uh, keep him safe. And she felt like she couldn't, she looked at all the laws, she felt like she couldn't.

Um, obviously I disagree. I think she could have, and I think, I hope that another court will, will feel differently, but ultimately I, at the end of the day, there's a real fear that the court system's not going to be able to solve this problem. And so if that's the case, then we need to look to politicians to step in.

We need to look to the executive branch to step in and, um, make sure that this group of really volunteers who tried to help people don't end up losing their lives as a result or even losing their freedom because they're stuck in a country that has to take these witnesses at their word because of the position that they have in that country.

[00:53:22] Christopher Ahn: Can I just say real quick also is that when the North Korean officials gave their, their statements. They were given statements with another North Korean official in the room. Of course, yeah. If that kind of evidence and those statements were presented in, in an American court, it'd be totally tossed out immediately because it was, there's a guy that's looking at me while I'm giving these statements,

[00:53:44] Jordan Harbinger: right?

And it's like, who's this guy? Some dude from Internal Security Services who's just gonna sit in the room?

[00:53:50] Naeun Rim: Oh, we know who that guy was. It was the ambassador, the one who had initially reached out for the defections. So he was the translator for everybody. So

[00:53:57] Jordan Harbinger: he's just like, everyone's gonna do what I say and I'm the one driving this.

Correct. Correct. That's,

[00:54:02] Christopher Ahn: and if you look at the actual statements themselves, they said that I beat them. I've got medical reports and X-rays that show my hands were broken before I got there. And when I came back from Spain, I had more X-rays done just routinely and showed that they were healing. My hand was healing, so I, my hand didn't get any trauma.

I. At a certain point they were saying that like we were

[00:54:21] Jordan Harbinger: eating people in there or something or other. Yeah, that's the woman reported they were e they're gonna, you're eating the children or something like that. Right.

[00:54:28] Christopher Ahn: There's a lot of things that in a normal cir circumstance, like it wouldn't really pass the smell test, but because of the variety of kind of, uh,

[00:54:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: a uniqueness of this, here I am.

So we're meeting you at a pretty extraordinary moment in your life. You're facing this extradition proceeding. You are not sure what the future holds. How do you feel right now? What's your outlook? What's your mood like? What do you feel like when you wake up in the morning?

[00:54:55] Christopher Ahn: Well, I mean, I think it's just like just with anybody else normally, right?

It's a spectrum of things that you deal with, right? There's a big part of me that feels incredibly blessed because I have people like UNE here. I have people like my wife who has stood by me throughout this entire thing. My wife's family, like my father-in-law, has never questioned me about the things that I've done.

'cause he understands and I've had supporters who've given small amounts of donations, large amounts of donations, and those financial support has literally kept my the lights on because it's incredibly hard to find reliable work. I've got an MBA, I've owned businesses. I've been a part of some major deals and I've also dug ditches and been like a manual labor guy.

I've done the whole spectrum. You would think that I, I would be able to kind of pick myself up and get a job, but because of the, the circumstances of this, you Google me and in the beginning it was all negative. Now there, it's slightly positive, but at the same time as a former business owner, like I get it.

Like if I've got a guy who's applying for this job that has a history of success, and then I walk, you know, like my version of someone walks in and he appears to be successful, but he's got all this baggage, why would I wanna hire this guy? Like, I wouldn't even hire me. So on one side, like I feel so incredibly blessed because I have such an amazing support system and those who have taken the time to hear my story and look beyond kind of like the first headline and the first paragraph of the clickbait article.

They understand and they've, that's what's carried me through. At the same time, there's the other side of this where it's incredibly difficult to just kind of be here. I've spent my entire life working, helping people and knowing that, like I find fulfillment in helping those people who need help. And now I'm here because of following, I guess, my heart in terms of doing what I felt was right.

And now I don't trust myself. Like, did I make a mistake? Did I, shouldn't I have not done this? I don't feel like I made a mistake. Everything in, in my soul tells me I did the right thing, but I'm destitute. I can't pay my bills, I can't support my family. I can't do the things that like normal people are able to do.

And I struggle with depression and feeling like, like I'm a person that deserves help. Because I feel like I failed everyone around me. And it's hard.

[00:57:39] Jordan Harbinger: I personally am very impressed by all this. It's an understatement. I mean, you, you did something that most people would like to think they would try to do and would probably never actually have the guts to do.

It didn't work out the way that you wanted it to. I don't think that negates the fact that you, you still did it.

[00:57:59] Christopher Ahn: So I, I wanna directly address that and I appreciate that. The first thing I say is like, thank you and I appreciate that immensely. And I don't want to downplay the things that I was doing to help these people and the immensity of it, but I think that the immensity of it is everyone looking at this from a very macro level where it's North Korea and it's like these defections and death and murder and, and all these in danger and all this.

Those macro things are very important. It's why people want to tune in and listen to these kinds of things. But we all live in kind of a micro world, right, where we're dealing with personal decisions and personal interactions. And I believe that if in a very specialized situation where a person was given this choice, where they were in a very unique situation, in the right place, in the right time, and they had the right skills and the right experiences, and someone came to them and says, yes, all this nursery stuff, whatever, right?

But this person needs help. And you are in a very unique situation, not because you're someone like super special or that you're better than someone just because of the life that you led and the experiences that you had. You have certain skills and skillsets that allow you to help this person. Will you help them?

You can see that happening in the Chosen Institute when we went to these normal people and said, you are given this chance to make a difference in what you do on a daily basis, and you can change these people's lives. Normal people have time and time again, and it's not just like this North Korean issue, it's just we as an American society have become successful.

Yes, because of all the things, but because of the people here who care about our neighbors and care about each other, and that's what makes us strong. That's what makes us unique. And I believe that, yes, what I did on a macro level seems either on one side crazy or on the on the other side. Amazing. But when you boil it down to the micro level, all I was doing was just trying to help these people get from one place to another and bring them from a bad place to a better place.

Because I personally am the result of people who've made that same decision. And when my family left, my mom and my dad left Korea to start a brand new life with no idea what they had in front of them. And I am the result of that and all the amazing things that I've been able to experience. And that was because of their courageousness.

And when you're encountering that and seeing someone that's willing to be courageous for their family, for not themselves, but for others. I believe that any one of us here at this table or any one of us that's listening, when they're presented that same exact situation that's custom tailored for specifically them, that they would say yes.

Because that's who we are as people. We want to help other people. And so again, I don't want to try to downplay what it is that I did, but that's not the world that I live in. I don't live in this world of like these geopolitical events. I'm just the guy that wants to live a normal life. And when I see someone that's struggling and I can help them, I want to help them.

You've told us quite

[01:01:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: a tale today. There's a very beautiful story. Very heartfelt and very personal, and I want to thank you for that. And what I've heard is that you're a guy who has been compelled since you were basically a kid by meaning and purpose, and that that has led you into a very difficult and unusual place.

And I am very moved by what you've done, even though it didn't go the way you had hoped and all the other things that you've done to help these people. I'm actually even more moved by the fact that it doesn't seem to have this geopolitical dimension to it that for you it's something much closer to home and simpler.

I just have to say that I hope this goes your way because this is an extraordinary thing that you're dealing with. It's very scary and you've done something that seems to me very pure, and it's not ended up the way it should have.

[01:02:03] Christopher Ahn: I appreciate it and thank you.

[01:02:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: I, I

[01:02:05] Christopher Ahn: just wanna also recognize that like I'm here.

Talking to you. So obviously I'm kind of the the guy that you guys are focusing on, but there are dozens of people around the world that just as much wanted to see progress and just as much wanted to help and just as much were willing to put it on the line to be able to try to facilitate a better future.

I'm not the star of the show here. There are so many people who put on, like, again, I'm not a card, like I'm not a card-carrying member of this place. Like I support it and, and if they ask me for help and if people want to associate with me with them, that's fine. But like those are the people that put in the time, the effort to make these relations that really put in the time to make these plans.

And I'm just the guy that called up to help. And at the end of the day, that's who I am. So I appreciate the praise, but there are so much more people that deserve it far more than I do. I hear you. And I believe that. Thank you very much. Yeah. Thank you for having me.

[01:03:05] Jordan Harbinger: You're about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger show with North Korean defector.

You own me. Park

[01:03:10] Clip: North Korea. Birds and minds can hear your whisper. It's the only place that modernity hasn't touched. 90, 70% North Korean walls are not paved in the hospital. They use one needle to inject everybody. It's very common to have a surgery without painkiller. The worst torture is being starved.

And before you die from starvation, you hallucinate, you lose your mind. So some mothers eat their children 'cause they thought their children were dogs because they go crazy and you don't eat. And then they wake up and then like, what happened to my child? If somebody challenging the party ideology, they don't just go after killing you or your son and grandma.

They really go after a generation like get rid of entire clan. That's how they prevent the revolution and that's how they became like Almighty God. Every front newspaper in North Korea is a Kim's photo, so sometimes you do not see the front page and you rip it. That's how you get executed.

[01:04:09] Jordan Harbinger: How do they prepare you to escape?

[01:04:11] Clip: Pray and fasting? You need a miracle to do it because you are gonna go across the Goby desert, into Mongolia from China in the miners four degrees. That's why they make you pray. They just give you a compass while on you walk. Follow the north and the west and then cross eight, wire your fences and hopefully that's gonna be Mongolia.

Very unique thing with the North Korean scene. Whenever you ask them in their dream is always North Korea. You never escape in your subconscious. You are there forever. Every night. Every night. I'm there like nobody. Escapes in your dream

[01:04:45] Jordan Harbinger: to hear more about the bizarre mind games that generations of North Koreans have had to endure under the current regime.

Check out episode 5 78 and 5 79 of the Jordan Harbinger Show. Told you this was a crazy story. By the way, more background on North Korea and this particular story can be heard in episode eight 20 with our guest, Bradley Hope, who wrote a whole book just about this case. The government here is in a bit of a bind, right?

Because if they don't extradite. It might seem like the government is backing Christopher because he's secretly CIA or whatever. And one of the ways to prove that this wasn't the CIA or sanctioned by the government is to extradite him. I don't think that should really play much of a part here, but that's how the agencies feel.

That's gonna be a big problem. I think they're, they're looking at that as, as kind of a major issue. It's a fascinating story, but man, in reality, the real life is very grim. This is life and death for Chris and we're, thankfully he came to talk to us. I mean, he had a lot of trouble making this happen. He's got an ankle monitor, which I've seen and looks incredibly uncomfortable that he has to wear.

He came with his lawyer who's amazing, and he's got a GoFundMe. If this story moved, you definitely consider donating to his GoFundMe. We're gonna link to that in the show notes. He really isn't doing much media for many reasons, but he trusted our show. He's been a fan of the show, which is amazing. I had no idea about that.

Obviously he's also suffering from major anxiety as a result of his situation. And he's got a curfew. He is under restrictions. He's not able to have children with his wife because time goes on, but you know, he doesn't have a job right now. He might be going to prison for years in another country, not a great time to have kids.

This is a really sad situation in my opinion, and he's also responsible for his mother and his grandmother. So if you wanna help, the fundraiser again is linked in the show notes free. Chris on.com is the website. We'll link to that in the show notes as well, as well as his Instagram at free. Chris on, he's open to work.

He's not expecting just charity. He's open to work so we can connect you if you have a job that he can do remotely because again, he is going to need to work from home. He is allowed to work, he's just not allowed to go to the office. Strategy consultant is his background. He can of course, work remotely.

He has a lot of experience and he really needs to feed his family. So if you can help, please do so. All things Christopher on will be in the show notes@jordanharbinger.com, transcripts in the show notes, or ask our AI chat bot anything you want, advertisers, deals, discounts, and ways to support the show.

All at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. Please consider supporting those who support this show. We've also got our newsletter every week. The team and I dig into an older episode of the show and dissect lessons and takeaways from it. So if you are a fan of the show, and I hope you are, and you wanna recap of important highlights and takeaways, or you just wanna know what to listen to next, the newsletter is a great place to do just that.

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Gabriel's Twitter and Instagram will be linked in the show notes. Almost forgot to mention that this show is created in association with Podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Millie Ocampo, Ian Baird and Gabriel Rahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for this show is you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting.

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