1185: Coffee | Skeptical Sunday

1185: Coffee | Skeptical Sunday

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Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to Skeptical Sunday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. Today I'm here with Skeptical Sunday co-host, writer, and researcher Jessica Wynn. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, and performers. On Sundays, though, we do Skeptical Sunday, where a rotating guest, co-host and I break down a topic you may have never thought about and debunk common misconceptions.

Topics like Why the Olympics are kind of a sham, tipping, astrology, acupuncture, crystal healing, diet pills, energy drinks, and more. If you're new to the show or you wanna tell your friends about the show, I suggest our episode starter packs. These are collections of our favorite episodes on persuasion, negotiation, psychology, disinformation, crime, and cults and more.

It'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit [00:01:00] Jordan harbinger.com/start or search for us in your Spotify app. To get started today is your Morning Cup of Joe, a comforting ritual, a socially accepted addiction, or just a hot mug of lies. Or is it simply helping you limp through your overscheduled under rested life?

If skipping your daily dose of caffeine sends your whole day into chaos, well, you're not alone. Today, we're diving headfirst into the jittery waters of the world's favorite drug coffee. Here to explore this steaming cup of magical energy that most of us depend on is writer and researcher and fellow Java junkie, Jessica Wynn.

Hey, Jess.

Jessica Wynn: Hey, Jordan. Have you had your coffee today?

Jordan Harbinger: Of course. I have some cold brew, a few espressos. I'm buzzing by the way, when people say espresso, I, I just can't. But anyway, I wanted to do this episode because I looked around and realized nearly everyone I know is addicted to coffee. And I went and met a friend of mine in New York a couple weeks ago.

I asked him if he wanted to go for coffee and he goes, no, I'm good. I've had 16 shots of espresso. And I laughed. Jesus. I laughed 'cause it was like [00:02:00] 10:00 AM and I said 16. And he's like, no, seriously. I've had 16 shots of espresso. And I'm like, how are you alive right now? So, well, I'm sure. I'm sure we'll get to that.

If you're listening to this while you're sipping your third $6 latte the day, don't worry. We're not judging you and you're never gonna be quite as caffeinated as my homeboy in New York. Oh my God. That's like

Jessica Wynn: giving me the shakes thinking about this. It is.

Jordan Harbinger: You know what's interesting about him though?

He's super successful, but he was a drug addict for a while. I think that now that he's quote unquote sober, I think he's just like a coffee and cigarette addict instead.

Jessica Wynn: That makes sense. I mean, I guess that's a better drug. I mean, look, I'm not gonna smack the cup outta anyone's hand. Mm-hmm. I mean, I'm drinking coffee right now.

You know, we've built our mornings, our meetings, our work breaks, our entire sense of productivity around coffee. So questioning the effects is kind of necessary. And let's

Jordan Harbinger: be clear, this isn't about scam coffee blends or counterfeit beans. We did that back in episode 10 88. This is about the real [00:03:00] stuff, the hard bean, the caffeine, the drug.

So what is all this coffee doing to us?

Jessica Wynn: Yeah. I mean, well first, you know, we've been drinking coffee for centuries. There's Turkish coffee ceremonies, Italian espresso bars, gas station sludge that tastes like it's filtered through a carburetor.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Jessica Wynn: Coffee. Is culture

Jordan Harbinger: or lack thereof. In the case of the gas station coffee, I, I cannot even imagine how much coffee we drink as a species.

Do you have any idea?

Jessica Wynn: Yeah, it's wild. 400 billion with a bee. Wow. Billion cups of coffee are consumed each year around the globe, and over 450 million of those cups are drunk in the US every day. Wow. And it's not like ice cream where you go, oh, I'll, I'll have a little coffee treat. More than half of adult Americans drink coffee every single day at an average of about three and a half cups each.

Jordan Harbinger: That's good news for Dunking and Starbucks for sure. Wow.

Jessica Wynn: For sure. Sure. And for just the global industry, I mean, there's over 25 [00:04:00] million farmers that work in coffee production. It's across 50 countries, mostly developing countries. Coffee is the second most valuable export for developing nations right after oil.

Wow. And the global coffee market, it's insanely huge. In 2023, it was estimated to be worth about 500 billion, and it's growing,

Jordan Harbinger: man. It's gotta be a drug with that kind. Street value. That's crazy,

Jessica Wynn: right? Caffeine is absolutely a drug. It's. The most widely consumed psychoactive drug on the planet. You know, you might have guessed it would be cocaine, but caffeine blows it out of the water.

Sure. It's basically PG 13 cocaine, so it's strong enough to change your brain chemistry, but mild enough to be sold at the mall.

Jordan Harbinger: To be fair, I bought my cocaine at the mall too back in the day, but, but yeah, no one's. No one's doing an intervention over it. No one's organizing coffee, holics anonymous meetings and saying like.

We're all here because we [00:05:00] love you. And you've had six lattes today.

Jessica Wynn: I mean, maybe your friend needs that,

Jordan Harbinger: but Yeah, he, he does. I used to suck dick for coke. I seen him Now. That's an addiction, man. You ever suck some dick for coffee? Yeah, I think no one sucked dick for coffee. Um,

Jessica Wynn: yeah, I mean, right. Like you can't have a support group without coffee.

It's the world's most like, polite addiction, uhhuh. But if you need three cups just to feel normal, I mean, that's not wellness. That's dependence. Yeah. So substitute what people say about coffee with. Any other drug and you'd be worried, you know, don't talk to me until I've had my meth Doesn't look great.

Embroidered on a pillow in, you know, at the home decor section of Target.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. Oh yeah. But first, heroin not trending. Not trending on Etsy anytime soon. Exactly. But come on. Coffee's not heroin. It's not destroying people's lives. It's like a healthy addiction. Right? It's a healthy one. It's fine. I mean, [00:06:00]

Jessica Wynn: sort of, you know what caffeine does is it blocks adenosine.

Okay. Which is a neurotransmitter that tells your body when it's tired. Okay. So coffee doesn't give you energy. It just turns off the part of your brain that knows you're tired. Like, that's the whole trick.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. So it's, it's basically gaslighting my body. It's kinda like my ex-girlfriend. It's, it's still better.

It's still better than other drugs though, right? Of

Jessica Wynn: course. But let's not pretend it's harmless. Okay. You know, high doses that it jacks up your anxiety. Spikes. Your heart rate messes with your sleep. It triggers heartburn and And that's just the shortlist. It's not nothing.

Jordan Harbinger: So it makes us a little jittery.

Seems worth it. As I sit here biting my nails. 'cause I've had one cup too much. Yeah,

Jessica Wynn: well sure it's fine. I mean, until your heart's doing the tango and you can't sleep, it might seem worth it. But yeah, people don't realize that their normal stress and exhaustion might actually be caffeine withdrawal or side effects of too much caffeine.

Jordan Harbinger: It's like the OG emotional support stimulant. [00:07:00] Well, maybe not the og. I mean, I don't know tobacco might be, but how, how did we get so hooked on the stuff in the first place?

Jessica Wynn: The history of coffee shows how deep the obsession goes. So it might be older than tobacco. I'm not, I'm not exactly sure, but I know ancient Mesopotamians used coffee plants medicinally around 7,000 bc.

Ethiopia gets credit as the first society to drink it for pleasure thousands of years ago. But coffee as we know it hit the western world in the 15 hundreds. It was so popular so fast throughout Europe that the Catholic Church freaked out and they called it quote, the bitter invention of Satan.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, that's so ridiculous.

Yes. Forgive me, father for I have Frappuccino.

30 Rock Clip: I don't drink coffee, sir. I don't drink hot liquids of any kind. That's the devil's temperature

Jordan Harbinger: classic overreaction by the church. I think though. Come on, it's just coffee man.

Jessica Wynn: I mean, the story goes that in the 1590s Hope Clement Thei was pressured to forbid Catholics from drinking coffee.

But he [00:08:00] decided to try it first and just after a few sips, he blessed coffee declaring quote, this Satan's drink is so delicious that it would be a pity to let the infidels have exclusive use of it.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. That's the most Catholic thing I've, I've heard over their count Joa. But it's sort of ridiculous.

'cause that's, first of all, that was before the caffeine even kicked in if you liked it after a few sips. So like you, you just, just wait, Pope, just wait. Clemont the eighth. He's sweating. Is it evil as he starts sweating in his robes? Yeah. Is it evil? Maybe? Is it tasty? Absolutely. We're keeping it. Oh man.

And thus Catholics were allowed to drink coffee.

Jessica Wynn: Amazing. I mean, you can literally buy a brand called Catholic Coffee today.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Branding never sleeps. It's like those Trappist monks that just make beer. They're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Pray or something. But this ale is. Making us millions of dollars

Jessica Wynn: completely.

And, and then in [00:09:00] 16, 45, 50 years after the Pope's blessing of coffee. The first real coffee house opened in Rome.

Jordan Harbinger: Coffee shops are, I get it. They're a sacred place. The counter is the altar. You line up, you confess your indulgent order to the barista, and you stand there waiting for them to call Gordon so I can get my morning, my morning salvation in a cup.

Yeah.

Jessica Wynn: I mean, that's the norm for most people. Coffee, it gets you outta bed. But here's the scam. Coffee isn't really fuel. It's a symptom.

Jordan Harbinger: So what is it a symptom of? Because if it's not caffeine's not actually giving me the energy, it's masking something. So what is it a symptom of?

Jessica Wynn: It's a symptom of just being totally wiped.

You know, we're overstimulated, we're under rested, and we substitute coffee for meals. A lot of us, oh, coffee's the cause of. And then also the solution to all these problems. It just kind of slaps a smiley face sticker over the check engine light when we really just need rest and recovery.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. There's this thing called [00:10:00] intermittent fasting, and it's basically like people swear by it, and sure there can be some benefits here and there, but mostly it's a fancy way to skip breakfast.

Right. But you're allowed to drink black coffee, so people drink like a bunch of black coffee and it's like, yeah, you're just drinking caffeine instead of breakfast so that you're not tired and you're not hungry, but you're actually still tired and hungry. You just aren't feeling, yeah, you're probably still not sleeping well.

Right. Or, or you that, or you fine. But like you, you aren't popping up the day like you would be if you, you know, had some food. So it's a motivational bandaid, but what's a harm with little pep in our mugs?

Jessica Wynn: Well, I mean, in addition to the caffeine blocking the adenosine, that neurotransmitter that tells you when you're tired.

It also elevates our cortisol levels. And cortisol is the hormone that gets released by our adrenal glands in response to stress.

Jordan Harbinger: I see.

Jessica Wynn: So when coffee messes with that over time, it messes with our sleep and it actually causes fatigue. So you're not not tired, you're just chemically unaware of how tired you really are.[00:11:00]

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Okay. Just to make it through your inbox. Right? Yeah. Caffeine is so rude.

Jessica Wynn: It's, yeah. And like any drug, your tolerance to caffeine, it builds up. You feel tired, so you reach for more coffee and you, you get caught in this vicious caffeine loop, drinking it all day.

Jordan Harbinger: I will say I definitely do not understand people who have coffee late at night that you ever go to dinner and they're like, what can I offer you anything?

Dessert, espresso. I'm like, my brother in Christ, it's 9:30 PM Right. Nobody wants espresso. And meanwhile, the old guy next to me orders three.

Jessica Wynn: Three. Yeah. And yeah, are you just gonna be up all night? I mean that's, that's some intense tolerance.

Jordan Harbinger: I literally saw an older guy order an espresso shot. Some kind of other coffee drink, which might have been for the person who wasn't at the table fine.

But then he had a, uh, some sort of coffee ice cream that also had a shot over it. And I was like, do you just go to bed at 2:00 AM or are you, so he's just been drinking it since he was nine. Yeah. Or have you been drinking coffee since you were nine years old and now you can drink this and immediately go pass out on your couch?

I don't understand that. I [00:12:00] can't do if I have coffee at 4:00 PM it's over, man.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah, I mean, it's just masking the problems that are actually making us tired. You know, sometimes we need sleep, not a double espresso. Plus it does quite a number on our stomach lining, like literally dissolving it.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh yeah.

It's a digestive bully. Especially, I've experienced a little bit of this when I drink it on an empty stomach. I didn't know it dissolved the stomach lining that is, well that's kind of gross. Really. Yeah. That's all there. Yeah.

Jessica Wynn: But it does gross things. So let's talk guts, you know, let's, coffee's naturally acid.

Which irritates your stomach lining, so it actually stimulates the production of acid, which lowers your stomach's pH level, and boom. That's what gives you the heartburn. The indigestion and acid reflux. Some people get,

Jordan Harbinger: but it's so good for breakfast though. I

Jessica Wynn: know. I know. It's so good. But we pair it with a croissant and we just kind of hope for the best.

Yeah. But again, it just, yeah, that sounds about right. Right. But it's just masking bad with [00:13:00] bad the acidity. Caffeine and carb combo. It moves fast through your digestive track, which for a lot of people, leads to bloating, gas and

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. What's the polite thing to say here? It, it gets things moving, creates a, an urgent restroom situation for most of us.

Sure, sure. The smell of coffee will do that for me. I don't even need to drink it. It just triggers it. Oh, I'll be right back. Yeah.

Jessica Wynn: I mean, some studies show that moderate coffee drinking can promote some good bacteria in our guts.

Airplane Clip: Okay.

Jessica Wynn: But the rate, most of us drink it, it's just disrupting the balance of our gut microbiome, which is why things move.

Mm-hmm. It's, it's called gastrocolic reflex, which is the urge to poop after drinking coffee or some other foods do it.

Jordan Harbinger: So it's just a reflex. It doesn't maybe happen after every cup.

Jessica Wynn: I mean, it depends what else is in our stomach for sure. Or what type of coffee we're drinking.

Airplane Clip: Huh.

Jessica Wynn: So coffee can trigger the release of hormones like.

Gastrin and [00:14:00] that increases muscle contractions in our digestive system, which it gets our colon excited to rock and roll. Sure. Especially in the morning when our colon's already more active.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay, got it. So coffee wakes us up all over, so to speak, then.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah, and it does vary from person to person and day to day for a lot of us, some people are really sensitive to stimulants and some people like that old guy you saw drinking the espresso at nine 30.

Yeah. They don't experience any effects.

Jordan Harbinger: So everyone just metabolizes it differently.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah, it's highly individualized. There's genetics involved, sleep stress levels, that all matters. So some people metabolize caffeine slowly and for them it's basically a legalized anxiety drug. Others coffee can exasperate anxiety and stress and give us those caffeine, you know, shakes.

Some folks sip a cup, they feel like Beyonce, others drink it and enter a full blown existential crisis before 10:00 AM you know? So it's like,

Jordan Harbinger: [00:15:00] yeah. It

Jessica Wynn: also affects our health, like gastrointestinal conditions like IBS. GERD or IBD worsen with drinking coffee? What are all those letters? So they're pretty self-explanatory, right?

It's irritable bowel syndrome, gastroesophageal reflux disease and inflammatory bowel disease. They're all pretty much different levels of diarrhea.

Jordan Harbinger: Stop. All right. I don't need more details. I mean, I'm gonna get more details, but for coffee drinkers, this is all worth it. Still Probably. I mean, do you think it's like productivity theater convincing us we need caffeine to get stuff done?

I don't know. I'm pretty convinced though. It's pretty. Yeah,

Jessica Wynn: for sure. I mean, you grab a cup of coffee, you open 12 tabs on the computer, at least you get another cop, you fire off a slack message. You know it, it can warp your sense of progress. Like it's like a placebo for motivation.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. And then my quote unquote favorite the crash midday post-lunch need another cup.

What? What causes the crash? What's that all about? If, if it's not fuel, why am I crashing?

Jessica Wynn: Yeah, I mean that's just the chemistry when the caffeine from coffee wears off. [00:16:00] That a dental scene comes flooding back and suddenly you feel how tired you really are. I

Jordan Harbinger: see.

Jessica Wynn: That's the crash. So some of that is increased for those who take their coffee with sugar because you're having the sugar crash too.

Jordan Harbinger: I see. Because I often don't get a crash, but I also sleep really well, so I, when people are like, oh, I'm having a caffeine crash, I only get that kind of like, well, candidly, it's like, well, I'm in Vegas and I slept three hours and then I had three lattes, and then yeah, then I have a 2:00 PM crash because I'm actually exhausted.

I've just been masking it. But normally, once my coffee wears off, I'm kind of fine. So we're just fooling ourselves with unsustainable focus and that makes sense. The double crash from sugar and caffeine in our mocha. So, okay. Some coffee is just more unhealthy than others. Is that accurate or did I misunderstand you earlier?

Jessica Wynn: No, of course. Coffee has become this fancy drink vehicle delivering milks and sugars and syrups. I mean, I like black coffee and when I see people ordering those complicated drinks, I always think, I don't think you like the bitter [00:17:00] taste of coffee. You just like sweets. But you want it in this caffeine boat.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, caffeine boat. Exactly. Exactly. Plus those caramel macchiatos are basically milkshakes, and I've never had one of those. Candidly, because it hurts my teeth. It hurts your teeth. That's such a funny thing to say because I, I get it. I feel, I hate the way my teeth feel after I have something like that.

Starbucks once sponsored the show and they were like, you can have all of these drinks. We're gonna send you boxes of different kinds of drinks. And they sent us like coffee and beans and mugs and stuff. And then they sent us some of these frappuccinos, which were really like, I'll say this, uh, a lot of people love those.

I gave 'em away at a party, but I, I kind of can't do that. Because I can only assume there's like 400 calories in something like that.

Jessica Wynn: It's probably more.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh really? Oh my God. Yikes.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah, they're just, they're desserts in a cardboard cup and have your name misspelled on it,

Jordan Harbinger: right? With Gordon written on it.

Yes, exactly

Jessica Wynn: right. You have blended Frapp Cheetos, caramel swirl lattes with extra whip and sprinkles of fudge [00:18:00] covered bacon or whatever the hell people are ordering. I mean,

Jordan Harbinger: yeah,

Jessica Wynn: they're not doing anything good for your health. And also, I mean, that's not coffee.

Jordan Harbinger: No. You know, I wonder if it's like people say, oh, I just need to go get coffee.

It's like a weird way you're lying to yourself when you're going to get a milkshake.

Airplane Clip: For sure.

Jordan Harbinger: If you go to Starbucks and get coffee and you end up with a Frappucino. You can kind of lie to yourself and say that it's healthy. I don't, or that it's not, at least that it's not a milkshake. I don't know.

Anyway. Yeah, this whole thing is kind of gross. It's kind of like somebody looks at a cupcake and says, yo, let's liquefy this dish with a shot of espresso and just call it breakfast. Yeah. It's

Jessica Wynn: not, not really a wellness elixir for sure. People are drinking these. All they have was coffee today. Don't understand why I'm not losing weight.

I mean,

Jordan Harbinger: right.

Jessica Wynn: Those drinks pack in hundreds of calories, mountains of sugar, unhealthy fats, so any potential benefit of the coffee itself gets buried under this landslide of syrup and branding.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. So drinking our coffee [00:19:00] black is healthier. That makes sense.

Airplane Clip: Excuse me, I happen to be passing and if I eat Matt, like some coffee.

Oh, that's very nice of you. Thank you. Cream. No, thank you. I take it black like my man.

Jessica Wynn: Classic. I mean the Yes, the joke, the coffee joke I know is, uh, I take my men like I take my coffee nice and quiet.

Jordan Harbinger: Ooh, brutal. There's almost, well, I'm not even gonna finish that sentence. Continue.

Jessica Wynn: I'm sure there's more we can hear about.

Yeah,

Jordan Harbinger: there's more.

Jessica Wynn: But I was actually surprised to come across studies that say, people who drink their coffee black and without sugar, they show higher levels of self-discipline and perseverance. So apparently a taste for bitterness correlates with stoic personality traits.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. I have to say one thing on the, the whole, I like my, and like I like my coffee thing.

So my buddy, I mean, he's a sweet man. Um, he never says anything like this, which made it even funnier. But he had a girlfriend who cheated on him. And we were like, oh, are you, you know what's gonna [00:20:00] happen? You, you know, you probably shouldn't take her back for reasons. 'cause he was sort of debating that. And then a week or two later I was like, Hey, how are you doing?

And he's like, you know, I realized I like my coffee, like I like my women. And I was thinking what everyone else is thinking, which is like, oh, he's gonna start dating African American women. And he goes without someone else's dick in it. Oh

Jessica Wynn: my

Jordan Harbinger: God.

A genius. Yeah. Pretty much. Yeah. So, uh, no update on that, but anyway, yeah. The best part of waking up are the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Shopify. When I started this podcast, I thought the hard part would be the interviews. It turns out running a small business means wearing like 12 hats.

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Alright, now back to skeptical Sunday. So, alright, back to stoicism. So people who drink black coffee are gritty, badasses, and people who drink vanilla lattes are what? Like fragile little hedonists like me.

Jessica Wynn: Sure. I guess. I guess that's one way to frame it. I mean, I think the science is less judgy. Okay. It just says bitter taste stronger.

Will,

Jordan Harbinger: okay. So let's say I ditched the sugar, I ditched the frothy milk, whatever. What does the research say about the health benefits of drinking coffee? Because I know that there are some, there's antioxidants or something in there, yada, yada. I don't know. It's

Jessica Wynn: kind of crazy to sort through all of the, the beneficial information.

Okay. 'cause there's just [00:24:00] a lot of billion dollar products and coffees science gets tangled up in all this corporate sponsorship.

Jordan Harbinger: It does seem like every week there's new headlines that are often that that kind of conflict. Like coffee causes dementia, coffee prevents cancer, coffee makes you immortal. If you're a juggling Virgo with type A b negative blood, what?

What is going on with all of that? That that always, to me, seems like industry sponsored stuff. Whenever there's just an influx of crazy headlines like, this is so good for you, you should drink it all the time.

Jessica Wynn: Oh yeah. I mean, the science is held hostage by a coffee industrial complex. You know? I mean, the problem with the research I've gone through is that.

The coffee industry funds a lot of the positive research. So you've got these billion dollar brands. Yeah, they're selling the idea that you're not productive unless you're caffeinated. But more than half of the studies I read are sponsored by companies with names like Bean Tech or Roast Core. I mean, they're actual names.

Yeah. Wow. Oh, that sounds

Jordan Harbinger: like dystopia version. No, [00:25:00] that's the actual names. That's really funny. I just imagine researchers typing up their findings with the shakiest caffeine fueled hands, like, no, no, no, no. It's still good for you guys. Trust me. Trust me. I know,

Jessica Wynn: I know. The bean lobby is strong, so it's, it's complicated.

But it seems that moderate coffee intake, which is like one to three cups a day, can offer some benefits. Uhhuh, so coffee, it does have antioxidants and it's shown to provide some liver protection. Depending how you look at it, that cognitive boost can be listed in the benefits column two.

Jordan Harbinger: So coffee's actually good for your liver.

That's weird. Why?

Jessica Wynn: Yeah, weirdly. Yeah. I mean, it appears to be, caffeine is shown to slow liver scarring and reduce inflammation.

Airplane Clip: Okay.

Jessica Wynn: Maybe even help prevent liver cancer according to some research that's not proven. But there's some things that point to that.

Jordan Harbinger: And how though, I mean, I thought coffee was good for my health 'cause it keeps me from dozing off in traffic, but

Jessica Wynn: Right.

Well it turns,

Jordan Harbinger: it seems there more story. It turns

Jessica Wynn: out that a de receptor coffee [00:26:00] blocks, it contributes to fibrosis, which is the liver scarring and blocking it can slow down the progression of it.

Airplane Clip: Huh?

Jessica Wynn: So the antioxidants in coffee, they do have the potential to help your liver fight off the fatty buildup by breaking down glucose.

And there's other chemicals in coffee like csol and Kawa that may have cancer fighting properties. But the research is really mixed. The acid is shown to have the potential to fight hepatitis.

Jordan Harbinger: That's actually incredible. Yeah. Because that's a really gnarly disease and you can, I think it's uncurable, some versions of it are, anyway,

Jessica Wynn: potential is the word.

We have to lean in. Yeah. In on there. So, sure,

Jordan Harbinger: sure.

Jessica Wynn: I mean, it sounds like it can be really incredible, but there are more efficient ways to help out our livers without drinking pots and pots of coffee. So moderation is key. And some individuals may experience adverse effects from coffee, like increased cholesterol.

Dave Grohl was famously rushed to the [00:27:00] hospital several years ago because he was so addicted to coffee. He suffered these like unwanted effects of too much caffeine.

Jordan Harbinger: Dave Grohl of the Foo Fighters. Yeah. That's

Airplane Clip: hot.

Jessica Wynn: Yes. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Jesus was he mainlining the the thresh pots. How much coffee do he need to go to the er?

Jessica Wynn: I know. I mean, how many gallons was he drinking? Geez. The FDA estimates that 10 to 14,000 milligrams can be a lethal dosage, and that's a lot. So as long as you don't slam like 30 cups of coffee in a short amount of time.

You'll be good. I mean, but I think that's what he was doing.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Maybe, I mean, my buddy who had 16 shots of espresso is at least halfway there.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah. He had to be close.

Jordan Harbinger: I have to say it's the lamest rockstar affliction, but it's a pretty good argument to watch how many cups you drink throughout the day.

Yeah, for sure. [00:28:00] Then again, I mean, he's not gonna die of a heroin overdose drinking coffee, so you got that going for you.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah, I mean, he's just addicted to caffeine and yeah, coffee is caffeine delivery. Full stop and high doses, which would be 12 cups or more, will interrupt normal sleep patterns. So when you drink in excess, it's raising your blood pressure and it can lead to heart palpitations.

So, I mean, I've definitely felt the sweats from a strong cup

Jordan Harbinger: Coffee is the kind of addiction that's disguised as routine. It's like an addiction. Nobody wants to name. Do people withdraw? I guess they must If you stop drinking coffee. Yeah.

Jessica Wynn: Oh yeah. I mean, have you ever been out of coffee for in the morning?

Yeah. You know what happens?

Jordan Harbinger: That's true. I have back in my sort of super monster energy drink coffee every time, every morning days. I used to get a headache if I waited too long. Sure. To start drinking that stuff in the morning. It doesn't happen anymore though. I'm, I'm just way down on all that stuff.

Yeah.

Jessica Wynn: It just sounds like you've really are in moderation of how much you drink. Yeah. But I mean, it doesn't [00:29:00] happen to everyone and when it does happen, it is withdrawal. So your head pounds, you feel fatigue. You might be depressed. I mean, that's not enjoyment. No. That's dependency with good branding. So if it were any other substance, we'd stage an intervention.

Right. Yeah. But because it's an acute mug, we call it self-care and it's kind of ugly. Yeah. You know, more studies claim coffee isn't healthy. It's just a common, socially acceptable addiction and no one really wants to say it because. Everyone's in on the fix, you know?

Jordan Harbinger: That's true. Yeah. It's socially acceptable.

It's kinda like alcohol is totally fine until you start committing crimes or beating people up or something. Right. It's, it's coffee doesn't do that, so you think like, oh, what's the arm? It's socially accepted because we all needed to tolerate each other's company. It's the opiate of the middle class, I suppose,

Jessica Wynn: or it's the speedball of the middle class.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Okay. So the ritual, the taste, the $7 latte with a flower drawn in the foam are all part of the fact that most people just needed to function. So [00:30:00] besides messing with my sleep and digestion, I suppose so. Okay. Hypothetical. What if we all just stopped? What if we all quit coffee? Cold Turkey, collective global detox.

Jessica Wynn: I mean, we'd crash and we'd crash hard. Mm-hmm. I think there'd be weeping in the streets office mutiny, full blown adult tantrums.

Jordan Harbinger: Sounds like LA on a Tuesday.

Jessica Wynn: Right? Right. But then, I mean, maybe we'd rest. Maybe we'd look around and realize we don't hate mornings.

Jordan Harbinger: That would take a lot of convincing in some people.

What's the good in quitting?

Jessica Wynn: Well, improved sleep is the most noticeable. Okay. So anxiety and blood pressure will lower when we detox from coffee and caffeine. Because caffeine interferes with the absorption of certain nutrients like calcium and iron. Quitting coffee improves those levels. So for a lot of people, it also alleviates heartburn and acid reflux and an overlooked benefit.

Your teeth get whiter.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Well, of course. I guess that makes sense. Are there drawbacks [00:31:00] then to quitting coffee?

Jessica Wynn: Yeah, and they happen real quick. Okay. So when you quit caffeine, you can experience headaches, fatigues, I irritability like we talked about. Mm-hmm. I mean, a lot of people rely on caffeine to boost their energy.

So quitting it makes you feel really fatigued at first. I mean, I brew a pot of coffee in the morning and I finish it throughout the day. So that's about. 12 cups. I might not put as many grounds as some people in, but regardless, I did this research. I'm like, I'm gonna see what happens. It was about day four or five, all of a sudden I was having a lot of green tea, so I'm just getting my caffeine from mm-hmm.

Somewhere else.

Airplane Clip: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jessica Wynn: And then after a week, I like ran to the grocery store to buy a bag of grounds because I had, I was like an addict. I had to have that taste, I had to have that coffee. So, wow. You can experience mood swings, you can deny yourself the little pleasure of your morning ritual. And it, it's, you're losing an aspect of your routine [00:32:00] and that's really hard to replace, is what I found.

So it's kind of similar to quitting any drug, except everybody thinks it seems crazy to quit this one. Yeah. You know, there's like cultural resistance and one motivator to help at least cut back is you'd be helping the environment.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Based on the amount of coffee we drink. Are the environmental effects just outta control?

Jessica Wynn: Yeah. Coffee's, it's pretty harsh on the environment.

Jordan Harbinger: Of course it is. So how do the beans make it to my grinder? Dare I ask?

Jessica Wynn: Yeah. The life of a coffee bean, it starts in tropical soil. It takes about three to four years for a coffee bean to grow into the trees that produce these small cherry like fruits.

Jordan Harbinger: Whoa. So coffee's a fruit, like a fruit salad. Fruit.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah. I mean, I don't recommend throwing it in a fruit salad, but Okay. It comes from a fruit called the coffee cherry. Within those red cherries are seeds we call beans, and that's what we use to brew coffee. So farmers pick the ripe fruit, they dry the beans inside.

Once they're dried, they get [00:33:00] skinned, sorted, shipped around the world as unroasted coffee beans, also known as green coffee. 'cause they're literally. Then they're roasted ground and brewed into the $8 drink you sip.

Jordan Harbinger: So do we drink green coffee? I don't think I've ever seen that. All my beans are roasted and brown.

Jessica Wynn: I mean, you can, but the brew tastes like lawn clippings that were soaked in hot water. Mm-hmm. So it's really bitter and really grassy. It's everything I've read. It sounds pretty unpleasant.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Yum. Artisanal flavors of mow grasses and somehow we've industrialized the hell out of it. I mean, coffee is pretty affordable for something that passes through a ton of hands and ships across the world so everybody can feel more awake at 7:00 AM I mean, that's pretty incredible that it's only whatever amount you pay.

Jessica Wynn: I know we complain about the price, but it's, yeah, it's wild what it goes through. And the whole process though, it's really brutal on the environment. It's basically the ExxonMobil of beverages. So to meet the global [00:34:00] demand, a lot of coffee farmers, they clear cut forests so that the coffee plants grow in plenty of sun because the more sun, the faster growth, the more beans.

But that also means fewer trees, less biodiversity and confused migratory birds.

Jordan Harbinger: So there's a very clear link between coffee and deforestation.

Jessica Wynn: Definitely. In fact, the World Wildlife Fund found that of the 50 countries in the world with the highest deforestation rates. 37 of them are coffee producing. Oh,

Jordan Harbinger: yikes.

Yeah,

Jessica Wynn: yeah, yeah. Coffee farmers, they, they also focus more and more on monoculture. We've talked about monoculture before, I think when we discussed in the banana episode. Oh,

Jordan Harbinger: right, right. That's growing like one thing. Is that what that is? Yeah, exactly.

Jessica Wynn: You, it's the practice of growing only one type of a plant, and it cranks out the volume, but monoculture, it decreases biodiversity, it interferes with animals, migratory patterns, and it increases the [00:35:00] chance of disease and infestation.

So, huh. One plant gets a disease, they all get it.

Jordan Harbinger: Right. Right, right. Because if, if, if the, what, I forget what, like these boll weevil looking things are like some sort of rot. Exactly. If it only attacks one kind of thing, but that's all you're growing for miles and miles and miles, everything can get it.

Right. Okay. So because we start our days with a cafe, Ole birds can't find their way south in the winter and plants have a higher chance of dying. I don't, the bird thing is interesting.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah, well when you'd cut down trees, that's a big problem of deforestation. They don't have, I don't know exactly the biology of it, but yeah, it messes with their patterns.

Jordan Harbinger: I would imagine if they can't rest in large numbers anymore in that area, they just have to go somewhere else. But what if there's nowhere else to go? 'cause you have a giant barrier of coffee plantations in the in the area. Man. Talk about a butterfly effect. Coffee's making me bitter and I'm not even drinking it right now.

Jessica Wynn: I know. Well then you're definitely not gonna like hearing about what it does to water. Like one cup in the morning. Takes 140 liters [00:36:00] of water to produce,

Jordan Harbinger: get outta here. That's insane. One cup.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah. That's over 36 gallons of water for your one mug.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. That is fricking ridiculous. I would not have guessed that.

Should I feel worse about a pot of coffee or a long shower? I think 36 gallons of water. You get the coffee, 36 gallons of water. That's like a 20 minute long shower and that's a ridiculous amount of time to spend in the shower. That's, so it's basically two showers worth of water to drink a cup of coffee.

Jessica Wynn: I think that's about right. Wow. And it's just not the amount of water required to grow the plants. It's what happens to the water along the way too. So a part of the coffee process is called wet milling, which it's pretty much steeping the fruits in water, which often is cut with sulfur, and that softens them.

So it makes it easier to get the beans out that wastewater ends up in rivers and streams contaminating the water. It kills fish, it kills plants. And once the coffee reaches us, there's even more problems.

Jordan Harbinger: What more pro, how much worse can it get?

Jessica Wynn: Well, think about it. You [00:37:00] know, every year billions and billions of coffee cups are thrown away just by Americans.

Jordan Harbinger: Right. That makes sense.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah. Most of those cups you get in Starbucks, you know they can't be recycled because of that sneaky plastic lining that keeps it insulated so it doesn't burn our hands. Sure. So they end up in landfills, oceans, international waterways, these compostable and reusable coffee cups.

They can help. Disposable cups and those single use coffee pods for the Keurig and things, they are widely used. So it's, it's just a major issue.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. The pods always, they seem wasteful, right? They're made out of aluminum and they're covered with foil and you use it to make one cup of coffee.

Jessica Wynn: I know.

They're horrible. And you can buy reusable pods. Okay. But they're gross and a mess. And it's the messy, it's just easier to pop one in. I mean, I get it. You're not thinking of holy shit, if everybody's doing this. Yeah. What, what waste it is.

Jordan Harbinger: Sure.

Jessica Wynn: Environmental catastrophe though. That's just some of the fun, like, wait till we talk about the labor.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I was gonna ask you about this. I know where this [00:38:00] probably ends. Slave coffee, right?

Jessica Wynn: Oh, you nailed it. Uh, coffee production exploits workers, there's child labor issues and in some cases literal slavery.

Jordan Harbinger: Have you ever heard of coffee enemas? Well, here's something else you can put up your butt. We'll be right back.

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All of the deals, discount codes and ways to support the podcast are searchable and clickable over at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. Now for the rest of skeptical Sunday. So I was prepared to hear that coffee farm workers have it pretty rough, but So yours, actual slavery, but not exaggerated, not like, oh, really low wages, but like human trafficking level slavery.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah, I mean, people are just trapped on some of these farms and a lot of adults do work for some money, but it's like one to 10% of the final retail price. They work insanely long hours. [00:41:00] Usually in the hot sun, they're exposed to extreme weather and pesticides. It's, it's awful.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. But even when the economics get bad farm workers, they still gotta meet their quotas.

I, I read something where, I can't remember where this was, but these workers were essentially lured slash trafficked in to, I don't even wanna say where, 'cause it was like Hawaii or was it Thailand or was it Columbia? I can't remember. But they basically got there and found out that they weren't gonna be able to leave because the passports were confiscated.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah, for sure. I mean, that definitely happens as, as well as, it doesn't matter about economics. People need their coffee in the morning. Mm-hmm. And so to meet those quotas. They often bring their kids along to the coffee farm to work. Oh

Jordan Harbinger: yeah. It seems like a lot of this labor intensive farming that takes place in developing countries does include child labor.

I've heard that before. I remember that from the chocolate episode, the bananas episodes, episodes I've done about human trafficking. Kids are making like bricks and stuff like that. It's, yeah, it's

Jessica Wynn: sad, but it's true. You know, these kids, [00:42:00] they're not officially employees and they're not getting paid. They just need the extra hands and they work the same brutal long days alongside their family.

You know, heavy manual laborer, the toxic chemicals, the industrial machines, the crazy heat kids shouldn't be around.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, and I guess it's not like they're there because they love coffee farming or they chose the job, you know? Definitely

Jessica Wynn: not. I mean, it's survival for them and their families. They don't have options or bargaining power.

I mean, imagine your kid. Trying to negotiate health insurance or a lunch break. Sure. You know, like, Hey, sorry boss, if you don't pay me more, I'm off to the plantation. Across the street. It has free snacks, right? Yeah. That doesn't happen.

Jordan Harbinger: Plantation down the road has a micro kitchen, right? Yeah. That's not gonna happen.

It's wild that this is part of a product that most of us drink every single day. This only happens with coffee from Ho, hopefully with the coffee from Shady Java salesman in the Congo or something, right? Or is this everywhere?

Jessica Wynn: Yeah. No, sadly. In fact, earlier this year, Starbucks [00:43:00] and Espresso were both caught up in child labor controversies after an investigation found that children under 13 were working on farms in Guatemala that supplied both of those coffee companies with their beans.

Jordan Harbinger: Starbucks, the place that sells Sarah McLaughlin CDs by the register.

And don't even get me started on Nespresso. You know how many hours I've spent in those doors sipping because I drink it at the store, sipping delicious, somewhat but barely. Banana flavored coffee with hints of cocoa and hazelnut. Outta those teeny tiny little cups. Come on.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah. And it's not just the children who are exploited for that pretentious moment you can have.

Yes. So what you were describing earlier with people getting stuck on these farms, it's called bonded labor uhhuh, and it's rampant in the coffee biz. So bonded labor is where someone pledges their services as a [00:44:00] security for the repayment of a debt. The terms of repayment are often unclear, and the person holding the debt has all this control over the laborer in question, which is probably what you were thinking of.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, that's right. Right. Okay. So this is like if you agreed to pay off your student loans by working 12 hours a day in a factory owned by Wells Fargo, you can start to begin to imagine what being a bonded laborer feels like. You show up and you go, okay, I got $64,000 in student loans, and they're like, well, $64,000 plus interest, and you're like, cool, let me see the spreadsheet with that on it.

And they're like, nah, we'll tell you when you've paid it off. Go work.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah. Sally Mays like, no, I have these tasks for you to do for,

Jordan Harbinger: for the next 20 years. Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica Wynn: I mean, tragically bonded labor is just a huge part of the global coffee industry. Back in 2011, for example, the US Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, they filed a lawsuit against eight different farms in Hawaii and Washington state for forcing hundreds [00:45:00] of Thai men to work in their fields between 2003 and 2007.

Oh,

Jordan Harbinger: I think this is the thing I was thinking of. Yeah. It was time men who were trafficked to hold Hawaii, Hawaii, America of all place to America. Yes. Like what? Yeah. That was shocking for me.

Jessica Wynn: And they legally entered the US and they paid recruitment fees. So they were promised decent salaries, but then when they arrived, their employers confiscated the passports.

They forced them to live in cramped facilities. They would threaten them with deportation. I mean, the case was awful. They physically assaulted, some of them, starved them as they worked off their debt. Oh my god. It happened in America.

Jordan Harbinger: That is deeply disturbing. Especially, I've been to a coffee farm now that I think about it in Hawaii, and I'm now, I'm like, was it one of the ones with human trafficking?

Same. And

Jessica Wynn: I thought it was so beautiful. Now I feel that.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it was. And you're like, oh, look at this international crew of people just out here in paradise, and they're just like, take, you know, sending, slipping you a note with your latte that says, help me. Oh God. I mean, this is all, why are you laughing?

You're terrible person. [00:46:00] Jessica. This is, this is all deeply disturbing here. I was drinking a little Joe to get the old engine started in the morning, and apparently I'm contributing to the demise of the planet and the basic human rights of my fellow man. Cool.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah. Real cool. Real cool. I mean,

Jordan Harbinger: yeah,

Jessica Wynn: once coffee companies realized how effed up the coffee production actually is, they, some of them started paying.

Certification organizations to create standards and oversee compliance within the supply chains.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. So those labels tell us more about the workers' quality of life than the quality of the product. Yeah. We've looked at this in several, I think there was, um, we might have even done a whole episode about Fair Trade, but we've looked at this in several episodes.

Fair Trade does not mean ethical and everybody's happy and peachy.

Jessica Wynn: Right. But it does mean that some organizations and businesses are trying at least. Okay, I'm hear for that. So the most, yeah, the most prominent one that people are, are probably familiar with is Fair Trade, USA. There's Fair Trade International, there's Rainforest Alliance, there's US certified.

Starbucks [00:47:00] actually has its own certification called Cafe, CAFE, which uhhuh it. It does the same thing as others, but makes Starbucks feel even more special, I guess.

Jordan Harbinger: Right? Yeah. And also it's like, well, we've certified ourselves and we feel good about that. For those who don't know, when you buy Fair Trade Coffee or a similar certified brand, it's showing you they're doing the work to pay farmers a minimum price and give them basic labor rights without contributing to child labor.

And that's hopefully can be. Yeah, hopefully. And that can be sort of flexible, I suppose, but it's better than nothing. And I do go for that stuff because I really don't want my coffee brewed in ecological ruin and human suffering. 'cause it's gross to think about. And basically the label's like shorthand for not being a total dick to the people who grow your coffee.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah, pretty much. And, and sellers that wanna grow their coffee even more sustainably, they can partner with a certifier like the Rainforest Alliance. What they do is a little extra. They ensure that the seller is conserving biodiversity, [00:48:00] avoiding the deforestation practices, and actually reforesting non-productive farms.

So Kenco and Costa, they're two brands that signed onto this program, but they're not readily available in the States.

Jordan Harbinger: I see. I did cry at the end of Avatar. So these brands sound like my, uh, my cup of tea. That is indeed somewhat comforting.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah. I mean. Not that comforting though. I mean, the problem is that fair trade, it doesn't address the environmental impacts of coffee.

And so the additional cost of farmers for complying with these standards by avoiding the child labor, providing pesticides, safety suits, doing extra paperwork, pretty much it can really offset the higher selling prices they get.

Jordan Harbinger: Gotta love the paradoxes of capitalism, I suppose.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah, the, the system does not work perfectly and unlike with organic food, there's no government agency to oversee ethical certification of specifically [00:49:00] coffee.

So there are brands like Just US Peace Coffee, which is actually in a lot of stores and a couple more. These are more conscientious brands trying to enforce policies that allow workers and farmers to form co-ops that advocate for their rights and concerns.

Jordan Harbinger: What about streamlining the supply chain or something?

Jessica Wynn: I mean, it's hard, right? I mean, you can buy direct trade coffee, which is coffee roasters, directly purchasing from farmers. And so they earn a higher premium for their product, but it's a lot of work for the consumer. You have to start asking your favorite coffee shop or they source their beans if you wanna start buying ethically.

Jordan Harbinger: It's not like Starbucks is gonna slap a label on your Frappuccino saying Enjoy this tasty beverage. A farmer with heatstroke and is hardworking, malnourished, 10-year-old son, made it all possible. I mean, the, the human costs of the supply chain are very remote and very well hidden, obviously by design.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah, it's heartbreaking. And when you're just in a rush to grab a cup of [00:50:00] coffee, you're not really thinking of all of these horrible conditions. Of course there is something well hidden that you, you might like about coffee. So throughout Africa and Asia, there's this small nocturnal cat and it's called the C Cat.

And these cats are naturally drawn to the best ripest fruits on the coffee plant, and they eat the fruit whole.

Airplane Clip: Mm-hmm.

Jessica Wynn: They also expel the beans hole, so. The logic is if they're eating the best beans, then

Jordan Harbinger: no. Oh my gosh. Tell me people are not drinking cat poop coffee.

Jessica Wynn: Oh, Jordan. Wow. Cat poop. Coffee beans.

They're like $20 an ounce or around $300 a pound. Oh my God. And there's even a brewery that uses the beans to make a really expensive coffee porter.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Imagine your job is to follow this cat around all night, God. And pick up its poop and then get the beans out. My God. Yeah.

Jessica Wynn: Talk about working conditions.

Wow.

Jordan Harbinger: I am out all the, are [00:51:00] there, are there alternatives to coffee?

Jessica Wynn: I mean, there's decaf coffee, right? And it, it seems to have the same potential protective effects on your liver. And decaf coffee's a better option for those sensitive to caffeine, but Yeah. But decaf is

Jordan Harbinger: for quitters. Yeah. What's the point?

And I think drinking that would make me feel even worse because you're still getting all the exploitative farming and labor and stuff. Then it's just all in vain. 'cause you do all that and you don't even get a caffeine buzz. So it's like, eh, what's the point? Aren't there any sort of real alternatives?

I'm always seeing ads for coffee, like drinks that aren't actually coffee. We've even advertised some on the show. There's various forms of other things that get ground up and Yeah. Made into coffee ish things.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah, sure. There's a, there's a popular thing. It's called Poor Man's Coffee, which is just chicory, which is like that woody plant with the blue and white flowers.

Okay. That's been used as a coffee substitute in Europe since 1766 when Frederick the Great of Prussia. He restricted coffee imports. So Prussians just started brewing [00:52:00] up. Chicory instead.

Jordan Harbinger: Is chicory any good? I I mean, I'm, I probably not 'cause nobody's heard of this, or at least I haven't. I don't

Jessica Wynn: think it, it would be your, your thing.

Okay. You might find it in some crunchy, like vegan cafes maybe, but

Airplane Clip: mm-hmm.

Jessica Wynn: It's caffeine free and it tastes kind of nutty and earthy. It's got maybe a coffee like flavor. If you really close your eyes, it's just not as bitter as regular coffee. I've actually had really yummy mushroom brew and of course there's tea.

Airplane Clip: Okay.

Jessica Wynn: I don't think there are any healthier or more ethical though, you know, and it's just, there's nothing like the real thing, but the healthiest alternative that actually gets you energized in the mornings is an apple.

Jordan Harbinger: So just brew an apple.

Jessica Wynn: No, no, no. You just eat it.

Jordan Harbinger: Ah.

Jessica Wynn: Studies show an apple in the morning is a better wake me up because apples provide natural sugars.

That helps energize you without the jitters or crash associated with the caffeine. They also contain fiber, which [00:53:00] slows down the release of sugar into your bloodstream leading to more sustained energy level throughout the day. But when I did my little experiment for the week, I was trying to have an apple in the morning and I still craved that that bitter still want that bitter taste.

So yeah, it just hasn't caught on.

Jordan Harbinger: I wish naps would catch on, but it's impossible. For most of our lifestyles. I think it would be, it would be amazing if the real health trend of 2025 is not, uh, some sort of weird mushroom latte or a caffeine tonic, but taking a stink in nap, we need everyone to just remember that we're allowed to rest.

Right. I actually have coffee rules for myself now. It's probably a good time to talk about this. I have a caffeine curfew and I also use an app called High Coffee. So I will not drink caffeine after two or 4:00 PM It depends on what day it is, what I have to do the next day. Usually 2:00 PM I just won't have any caffeine after that at all.

And I use an app called Hi Coffee. We'll link it in the show notes. Hi, coffee as in like, hello coffee, HI, and you just put in like Diet Coke, espresso latte from [00:54:00] Starbucks. And it shows you if you're gonna be able to sleep and at what time. And also it shows you, are you getting the max benefit from caffeine or did you just have enough caffeine throughout the day to be like sort of UNT tired?

I think it's called a caffeine boost or something in the app where if you have enough at once, it's like, okay, now you're kind of ready to workout. Then you should just stop drinking coffee after that. And then unless you have something else that you have to do, it's very cheap and and effective. And it shows you exactly how much caffeine you need so you don't drink anymore.

And what I love is that sleep line where it's like, if you wanna go to bed at nine, you better not have any coffee right now because here's where the graph is. And you're like, okay, I am done.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah. That's incredible. I mean, there are a few different caffeine tracking apps that definitely takes discipline.

So

Jordan Harbinger: yeah,

Jessica Wynn: I don't think people drinking lattes will be as into it, but I mean, you know, maybe we do just need the crash though. So if we, yeah, all did stop drinking the coffee for a week. I did notice that, hey, you save a little bit of money when you're not drinking it every [00:55:00] day. And, but it's just so hard.

And if you're relying on apps to like monitor your caffeine, I mean, that really shows how addicted we all are. I mean, people, yeah, love their coffee. People love coffee so much. It's in beauty products now. Really. Oh yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, coffee's incorporated into a variety of beauty regimens.

There's face and body scrubs, there's masks, there's eye creams, body creams, there's even hair treatments. So the caffeine and coffee is believed by some to offer benefits like exfoliation, reduction of puffiness and dark circles even, you know, anti cellulite effects.

Jordan Harbinger: So people are using coffee externally.

Really.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah. I definitely wouldn't rush to lathering up with the coffee grinds just yet, Uhhuh. But the wellness community has decided it's a good exfoliant and good for the skin. I dug into this a little bit, and the science shows that coffee and other caffeinated drinks can actually [00:56:00] interfere with collagen formation and collagen's essential.

It's an essential protein that gives your skin a youthful look. So by quitting caffeine, you may actually be able to slow down the development of fine lines and wrinkles and thus delay the visible signs of aging.

Jordan Harbinger: I thought the antioxidants in coffee help with wrinkles. What the hell?

Jessica Wynn: You're right. Sort of, but it's not the coffee that helps with the wrinkles.

It's definitely the antioxidants in the caffeine, but there's just many other ways to get dietary antioxidants. Coffee is a good source, but it doesn't provide the same antioxidants as fruits and vegetables. So, you know, I mean, you can decide for yourself, have a ton of coffee or you know, a salad.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. So yeah, caffeine is an antioxidant, but then also you can get it from something else.

Okay. That's probably a better idea. So what's your advice? Should we, should we stop drinking coffee or not?

Jessica Wynn: I mean, it's unfair, isn't it? You know, it's, I feel like I've kind of been scammed since I [00:57:00] started drinking coffee at 15. There is a big part of me that thinks coffee might be the biggest con on society ever.

So, I mean, my advice is read up on the brands you buy. Research the production standards of your favorite suppliers. You know, ask your barista at your local coffee shop where they get their beans. Encourage your local supermarket to carry more certified brands. You know, asking a few good questions will usually tell you most of what you need to know about the quality of your coffee.

If you have the willpower to quit coffee, then just go burn your loyalty punch card, Uhhuh, eat an apple, drink some water, take a nap. But you know, stop pretending like your exhaustion's a badge of honor. And if you must drink coffee, admit you're hooked and move on.

Jordan Harbinger: Right? So we're not saying give it up, we're saying wake up to what's waking you up.

Drink what you want, but know what you're drinking and admit it's not just about energy. Take a nap. This episode, by the way, is brought to you by Duncan. No, [00:58:00] I'm kidding. They, they'd have a caffeine stroke if in fact, I'm a little bit like, uh, gotta make sure that we don't put Starbucks ads on this one. Um, thank you Jessica, for brewing up the bitter facts.

Yeah, my pleasure. Thanks everybody so much for listening. Topic suggestions for future episodes of Skeptical Sunday to me, jordan@jordanharbinger.com. Show notes on the website, advertisers deals, discount codes, ways to support the show, all at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram.

You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. You can find Jessica on her substacks Between the Lines and Where Shadows Linger. We'll link to those in the show notes as well. This show is created in association with Podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Tadas Sidlauskas, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, and Gabriel Mizrahi.

Our advice and opinions are our own. I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer and I don't know squat about coffee, as you know from this episode. So do your own research before implementing things you hear on the show. Maybe talk to a real doctor somewhere. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love.

And if you found the episode useful, please share it with a caffeine addict [00:59:00] who could use a good dose of the skepticism and knowledge that we doled out today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. What if everything you've been told about building wealth is total bs?

Scott Galloway joins me to dismantle the myths and lay out a brutally honest roadmap to financial security. In today's economy,

JHS Clip: the greatest bump in mortality for men is one, when their spouse dies, and two, when they stop work and when they lose their social fabric and their purpose, they get inactive, sometimes depressed.

And when you get inactive and depressed, your brain kind of sends out a hormone or a message saying, oh, it's time to die. This person isn't adding any value. Supposedly for every additional year you work, your life expectancy actually goes up. So what they don't teach you is the smart thing to do is the moment you have assets.

Start diversifying. And here's the thing, you don't need to be a hero. You don't need to find the needle in the haystack. Figure out what you're good at. Find a way to save more than [01:00:00] you spend. Realize how fast time is gonna go and diversify. This is what you become passionate about, is when you get to our age, you become really passionate about taking care of your kids.

You become really passionate about taking care of your parents and being able to take your spouse to really wonderful places. You become passionate about the absence of stress from your relationships, that not having economic security injects into every relationship. Success and entrepreneurship is your ability to endure rejection, ability to endure failure and entrepreneurship is really just a synonym for salespeople.

Don't be an idiot. Follow these simple equations and you're gonna be fine. Develop economic security for you and your family by finding something you're great at. Make some money, save some money. Understand how fast time is gonna go and diversify.

Jordan Harbinger: If you've ever wondered why working hard isn't enough, check out episode 1074 with Scott Galloway.