Daryl Davis (@realdaryldavis) is a musician, author, lecturer, host of the Changing Minds podcast, and anti-racism activist featured in the documentary Accidental Courtesy: Daryl Davis, Race & America. [This is part two of a two-part episode. Make sure to catch part one here!]
What We Discuss with Daryl Davis:
- How Daryl Davis, a black musician who was once told by a Ku Klux Klansman that he played piano “just like Jerry Lee Lewis,” leveraged the encounter into a teachable moment that has led to more than 200 KKK members hanging up their robes for good.
- Why racism was such an unfathomable concept when Daryl first experienced it as a 10-year-old Cub Scout.
- How traveling around the world as a child with his diplomat father gave Daryl the tools he needed to sit down and relate to people vastly different from him.
- Why Daryl considers a missed opportunity for dialogue to be a missed opportunity for conflict resolution.
- The five values all humans have in common that Daryl uses to positively navigate (almost) any conversation.
- And much more…
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When he was just a 10-year-old Cub Scout marching in a suburban Boston parade, Daryl Davis thought he was being pelted with bottles and rocks by a select assortment of knuckle-dragging locals because they had something against Cub Scouts — not a problem with him being black. He had spent a childhood traveling around the world with his diplomat father and was used to interacting with every variety of person under the sun, so when his parents briefed him about the ugly reality of racism, he didn’t believe them. It prompted him to ask a question he’s been trying to answer ever since: “How can you hate me when you don’t even know me?”
On this two-part episode, we catch up with Daryl to discover what he’s learned since first asking this question, and how a chance encounter with a card-carrying member of the Ku Klux Klan while playing piano in an all-white club led to an ongoing dialogue that has influenced more than 200 Klansmen to hang up their robes for good. Listen, learn, and enjoy! [This is part two of a two-part episode. Make sure to catch part one here!]
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On Walk-Ins Welcome, Bridget Phetasy talks about the beautiful failures and frightening successes of her own life and the lives of her guests. By embracing it all, and celebrating it with the stories she’ll bring listeners, she believes that our lowest moments can be the building blocks for our eventual fulfillment. Listen on PodcastOne or wherever you catch fine podcasts!
Thanks, Daryl Davis!
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Resources from This Episode:
- Accidental Courtesy: Daryl Davis, Race & America | Prime Video
- Changing Minds Podcast
- Daryl Davis | Website
- Daryl Davis | Instagram
- Daryl Davis | Twitter
- Daryl Davis | Facebook
- Daryl Davis: Why I, as a Black Man, Attend KKK Rallies | TEDx Naperville
- Daryl Davis: Turn the World Outward | The Arbinger Institute
- Daryl Davis: Can You Change the Mind of a Racist? | Deseret News
- MD Klan Leader Gets 36 Months in Weapon Case | The Washington Post
- Eli Steele | Twitter
- White Flight Didn’t Disappear — It Just Moved to the Suburbs | Minnpost
- Jeff Schoep | Twitter
- The Valley Beyond Anti-Racism | Beyond Barriers
- 5 Years After Charleston Church Massacre, What Have We Learned? | NPR
- Two Years Later, Tree of Life Shooting Survivors Are Making the Victims’ Memories a Blessing | Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
- El Paso Reflects on Racist Motive behind Aug. 3 Walmart Mass Shooting | El Paso Times
- Remembering 6 Shooting Deaths At Wisconsin Sikh Temple | NPR
- 6 Men Indicted in Alleged Plot to Kidnap Michigan Governor | AP News
- Photos: Pro-Trump Rioters Breach the US Capitol on Historic Day in Congress | CNN
- ‘Camp Auschwitz’ Rioter Is Arrested | The New York Times
- RAHOWA | Anti-Defamation League
- USSR Invasion of Afghanistan 1979 | Military.com
- Accidental Courtesy Follow-Up: Daryl Davis and Kwame Rose Agree That Black Lives Matter | Sound & Vision
- Rosa Parks | National Women’s History Museum
- The Black Lives Matter Movement – A Brief History of Civil Rights in the United States | HUSL Library at Howard University School of Law
- Did Police Take Dylann Roof to Burger King? | Snopes.com
- Why Does the Ku Klux Klan Burn Crosses? | Slate
- Active Ku Klux Klan Groups | Southern Poverty Law Center
- Robert Byrd Was an Exalted Cyclops in the Ku Klux Klan. What Does That Mean? | Slate
- Daryl Davis: “We’re Living in Space Age Times, With Stone Age Minds” | Russell Howard
- Why Gil Scott-Heron’s ‘Whitey on the Moon’ Still Feels Relevant Today | The Conversation
- Parents For Peace
- Parallel Networks
- Jesse Morton | Twitter
- Foundation Against Intolerance & Racism (FAIR)
- I Destroy My Enemies When I Make Them My Friends | Quote Investigator
- Megan Phelps-Roper | Unfollowing Westboro Baptist Church Part One | Jordan Harbinger
Daryl Davis | A Black Man’s Odyssey in the KKK Part Two (Episode 540)
Jordan Harbinger: Coming up next on The Jordan Harbinger Show.
[00:00:03] Daryl Davis: He thinks, "Man, I just had a three-hour conversation with a black guy and we didn't come to blows. What that guy said about such and such, it makes sense or what he said about whatever is true." And then they're confused because they realize the truth came from a black person, which does not compute properly. So they began having a cognitive dissonance, which turned into a dilemma. "Do I believe what that Daryl guy said? Should I disregard his skin color and believe the truth and change my ideological path? Or should I look at his skin color and continue living a lie even though I know what he said was true?" That's a struggle for them. And in most cases, they will follow the truth.
[00:00:52] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people. We have in-depth conversations with people at the top of their game, astronauts and entrepreneurs, spies and psychologists, even the occasional national security advisor, arms trafficker, or war correspondence. And each episode turns our guests' wisdom into practical advice that you can use to build a deeper understanding of how the world works and become a better critical thinker.
[00:01:19] If you're new to the show, or you're looking for a handy way to tell your friends about it, we've got those episode starter packs. These are collections of episodes organized by topics. That'll help new listeners get a taste of everything that we do here on The Jordan Harbinger Show. Just visit jordanharbinger.com/start. That'll help you get started, or if you want to help somebody else get started. Of course, I always appreciate that.
[00:01:40] Now, this is part two with Daryl Davis, the jazz musician who helps Ku Klux Klan members get out of the Klan by befriending them. Oh, and did I mention he's a black dude, so that's quite the feat there. He's starting with a little bit of a handicap trying to make friends with Klansmen, but he's managed to do a great job. If you haven't heard part one yet, go back and listen to part one. That'll get you situated here for part two. If you're joining us for part two, welcome back, let's dive right in.
[00:02:07] You don't seem to be offended by the racist and hateful commentary coming from Klansmen or other people like to your face. So how did you develop the ability to — what do you call it? Compartmentalize that or not allow it to get to you. How did you develop that?
[00:02:23] Daryl Davis: Because I know who I am and you can not define me, unless you know me. So I just met this guy 10 minutes ago, he walks into the room to be interviewed, and he's telling me that I'm a criminal because black people are prone to crime. I asked the question: how can you hate me? You don't even know me. And some of the answers are black people are prone to crime. Where's the evidence of that? "Well, Mr. Davis, all you have to do is look at our prison system. There are more black people in prison than white people." What he's telling me is true as a fact, all right. So the data shows that, but he's not looking at the reason why there are more blacks in prison. He's not looking at the imbalance in our judicial system that puts black people in prison for things that white people get to go home for, or get shorter sentences for, or whatever. All he sees is they're more blacks in prison than whites. So therefore blacks are probably more prone to crime than white people. That's the narrative and it fits. So I don't pushback. I just listened to him.
[00:03:28] Now, when he first walks into the room and sees me his wall goes right up because I'm not the object of his affection, right? So I'm a black. That's why he joined the Klan. So his wall is up, he's on the attack. His job is to let me know my place. My place is the place of somebody inferior. He is superior. He is the supremacist, right? I'm not supreme. So he has to get that established. And so I'm prone to crime. I listened. He tells me that black people are inherently lazy. That we prefer to scam the government welfare system. We always have our hand out for a freebie. I listened.
[00:04:07] And he goes on to say that black people are born with smaller brains than white people. The larger the brain, the more capacity for intelligence, the smaller the brain, the lower the IQ. So now, he's calling me dumb. And he's saying that this is evidenced by the fact that black kids year after year consistently score lower on the SATs than white kids. Again, this is true. All right, absolutely true. He sees the data and he makes that narrative in his mind. He's not considering why. Where do most black kids go to school? In the inner city. Where do the most white kids go to school? In the suburbs. We know the suburban schools are much better equipped than the inner city schools. White kids who go to school in the inner city, also scored very low. Black kids who go to school in the suburbs scored much higher. So it has nothing to do with the color of the child's skin or the size of the child's brain but has everything to do with the quality of the educational system in which that child is enrolled, but he's not seeing all that. He's just seeing the data, the stats on the scores. So he's convinced.
[00:05:18] And now, because I'm not pushing back, that wall is coming down. The temperature is coming down because he is so used to pushback. You know, you call some black guy, a criminal, call him lazy, tell him he's dumb with a small brain, you're going to get some pushback. I'm not pushing back. I'm just letting him roll. And so his temperature's coming down. The wall is coming down and he's getting curious as to how I'm taking this. So if I were to pushback, when he first started doing this, his ears will be shut. He's going to shut me out. He's not going to hear what I have to say, but when the wall is down and he's curious as to how I feel about what he's saying, his ears are open.
[00:06:00] So once he finishes exhausting all this vitriol, then I respond. It's my turn to talk and he's ready to listen. However, I could go on the offense. I could say, "No, you are the criminal. People like you are the ones hanging black men from trees, dragging them behind pickup trucks, blowing up their churches and all that kind of stuff." And I would be 100 percent correct. The Klan has a vast history of that. But if I did that, the wall would go right back up. He'd be—
[00:06:31] Jordan Harbinger: Right.
[00:06:32] Daryl Davis: So rather than go on the attack on the offense, I go on the defense. I say, "Listen, man, I hear you. I hear what you're saying. However, I'm black. I don't have a criminal record. My mom and dad didn't have a criminal record. As far as welfare goes, I've never been on welfare. My mother and father were never on welfare." I said, "As far as my brain size goes, I've never measured it, but I'm sure it's the same size as everybody else's and my SAT scores, they got me into college." I see I've already done my homework on this guy. I know he barely made it out of high school. So I'm about to throw something in his face and say, "I'm smarter than you. I know that I have more intelligence in my little fingernail that he and his whole Klan group put together," but I'm not going to throw that in his face. I'm going to say, "You know, listen, my sat scores got me into college," knowing that he didn't go. I said, "So how do you explain that?" And he has to think and come up with something.
[00:07:31] So what happens then is this, this has happened more times than I can count. They go home and they reflect on what transpired during the day. Just like you will, just like I will before we go to bed. And he thinks, "Man, I just had a three-hour conversation with a black guy. And we didn't come to blows. What that guy said about such and such, it makes sense of what he said about whatever is true." And then they're confused because they realize the truth came from a black person, which does not compute properly. So they began having a cognitive dissonance, which turned into a dilemma. "Do I believe what that Daryl guy said? Should I disregard his skin color and believe the truth and change my ideological path? Or should I look at his skin color and continue living a lie even though I know what he said was true?" That's a struggle for them. And in most cases they will follow the truth. Not overnight but they'll change over time. Others will go to their graves being hateful and racist, but you always want to know who you are before you go into one of these situations.
[00:08:43] I'm not going to let somebody who just met me 10 minutes ago define me as a criminal or whatever else. Now, if my parents were to tell me, "Daryl, you know, I think you were prone to crime. You're kind of lazy and you're also kind of dumb." I might believe them because they brought me into this world. They raised me but not somebody just walks in my room.
[00:09:01] Jordan Harbinger: People gave their robes, or have been giving you their robes when they leave the Klan. This is so interesting, right? It's a bit like trophies, but the people changing their minds and getting out is the real reward, I assume.
[00:09:12] Daryl Davis: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:09:14] Jordan Harbinger: Where do you keep those? I mean, I'm just imagining walking into your house and there's like this huge room with Klan robes all over the place and it's like, "Wait, Daryl, this is your living room?"
[00:09:22] Daryl Davis: I have one right here.
[00:09:23] Jordan Harbinger: Can I see it?
[00:09:24] Daryl Davis: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:09:25] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:09:25] Daryl Davis: I keep a couple of them inside a closet, but the vast majority, I keep locked up offsite.
[00:09:30] Jordan Harbinger: That makes sense.
[00:09:32] Daryl Davis: This is when I was showing on another call.
[00:09:37] Jordan Harbinger: Wow.
[00:09:37] Daryl Davis: This is the symbol that all Klan groups use. And of course, you see the flags.
[00:09:41] Jordan Harbinger: Oh yeah.
[00:09:42] Daryl Davis: Okay. This guy, he was a Grand Dragon, the Grand Dragon from Maryland. His name was Robert White. Robert White went to prison for four years for conspiring to bomb a synagogue in Baltimore. He continued running the clan while he was in prison, through his vice guy. And then when he got out, he took it back over, continued running it. A couple of years, a few years later, he went back to prison for assault with intent to murder two black men with a shotgun.
[00:10:11] Jordan Harbinger: Jeez.
[00:10:11] Daryl Davis: All right. So he did three years for that one. So he spent seven years in prison. I contacted him right before he got out of prison the last time. And I didn't tell him I was black. I told him, you know, I'm writing a book on the Klan. I'd like to interview him. He wrote me back. And man, everything wrong with the world was because of the blacks and the Jews. Whole world would be a lot better without any of them, all that kind of stuff. He was vehemently violent and vehemently racist. And he said we could meet when he got out in a couple of months and this was in November. And in December he sent me a Christmas card that he had made in the prison because they don't sell them there. You got to make your own. And he was due to get out in February.
[00:10:53] In January, he writes me and he's all upset. "How come you didn't tell him you were black?" So he sent some of his people to check me out somewhere. And they reported back to him that I was black. Now, he thinks he's being deceived. I'm setting him up or whatever. I wrote him back. I said, "Listen, man, what difference does it make you? If you're going to tell me the truth. Has the truth changed if you talk to a white person than you talk to a black person?" I said, "All I want to know is what you're thinking." So he said okay. We did meet. And again, he explained the problem was black people and the Jews and on and on. We kept meeting, kept meeting. He began toning it down over time, not overnight, but over time. And he finally got out of it.
[00:11:32] As a Klan leader, you don't get paid per se. You might get a small stipend out of the dues, but you can't make a living. You can't pay your mortgage and your rent and stuff. Put your kids through school. You have to have a regular job. Grand Dragon, Imperial Wizard, Exalted Cyclops, Great Titan, these are all titles, which don't carry any money. So like Boy Scout leader, you have to have a regular job. His regular job when he was doing that synagogue and stuff, he was a Baltimore City police officer.
[00:12:02] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Oh my God, before he went to prison, obviously.
[00:12:07] Daryl Davis: Yeah. And there were others and there still are others on that force. Okay, it's very serious.
[00:12:16] Jordan Harbinger: What year was this? What year was this that he was—?
[00:12:18] Daryl Davis: In the '80s.
[00:12:20] Jordan Harbinger: I guess that gives me a little bit of comfort, but not like a ton.
[00:12:26] Daryl Davis: And when he got out and that was it. The uniform robe is one of the things that he gave me. He and I became the best of friends.
[00:12:35] Jordan Harbinger: How do people even get into the Klan these days? I mean, I assume recruiting has slowed down quite a bit.
[00:12:39] Daryl Davis: Well, recruiting — no, they're always trying to recruit, but now there's a lot of competition. There's so many other groups.
[00:12:47] Jordan Harbinger: Right.
[00:12:47] Daryl Davis: When I first started this stuff, it was just the Klan, some neo-Nazi groups, the White Power Skinheads. And today, you got the Klan, the neo-Nazis, the White Power Skinheads, the Alt-Right, the Oath Keepers, the Proud Boys, the Boogaloo Boys, the Three Percenters, Church of the Creator, you know, all these other ones. And they're all trying to recruit because what's happening, Jordan, is this — this is what the media does not talk about, but this is what's happening in this country. Let me give some background first. This country was built on a two-tier society, white supremacy at the top, slavery at the bottom. That's what built this country. And as we progressed through the decades, we progressed like this, maybe like this, but never like this. There's always this hierarchy thing.
[00:13:42] Jordan Harbinger: So for those of you who are listening and not watching, basically his hands are staying parallel with the gap in between them. So it's like we're not closing the gap. We're not progressing on equal terms. We're just keeping the gap, maybe it's smaller than it was before, but the gap is still there. We're progressing upwards, but not necessarily together at the same phase.
[00:14:00] Daryl Davis: Correct. So when I was a kid, the black population in this country was 12 percent, native Americans, one percent, Hispanic people two percent, Asians almost three percent, white people were around 84, 8 percent back then.
[00:14:17] Jordan Harbinger: I'm doing the math in my head and it's not working. Yeah. Okay. Got it.
[00:14:20] Daryl Davis: Okay.
[00:14:20] Jordan Harbinger: I'm trying.
[00:14:21] Daryl Davis: Oh, you want to add them up?
[00:14:23] Jordan Harbinger: It's not even important. I was just doing it out of habit and I was like, "Is that a hundred," but then I was like, "Eeh, it's irrelevant."
[00:14:28] Daryl Davis: No, and then you have the other.
[00:14:30] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, yeah, right, right, right. Sure. Now, that makes sense.
[00:14:33] Daryl Davis: I'm just naming the majority ones, Asians, native Americans, Hispanics, the blacks and the whites. And you've got other mixes and things. Okay, so today native Americans remain at one percent. Black people remain at 12.9, almost 13 percent. So we really have not grown. Asians have almost doubled, I think, 5.9 or 6 percent. Hispanics have more than doubled. It was like 17 point something percent. So if you just take 12 percent black and 17 percent Hispanic, that's 29 percent non-white right there. This is happening. And it is predicted that in the year 2042, which is only two decades from now, 21 years from now, this country for the first time in history, it would be 50-50, 50 percent white, 50 percent non-white which includes Asian, Hispanic, black, and other. When you have sat on the throne of power for 400 years, you don't want to get off. Now, there is a large percentage of white Americans who say, "Hey, that doesn't bother me. That's evolution. I don't have a problem with that."
[00:15:47] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I already made some kids that are other. I don't know, one to check if they're going to be like, "There's not enough boxes," or maybe there are too many. I don't know. "Dad, what do I check?"
[00:16:00] Daryl Davis: I have some solutions for that. And I'm going to turn you on to a guy. You need to see his film, Eli Steele. I'll tell you about him in a second, spiel about those boxes. But there's also a large swap on the population that are getting freaked out about that. They don't want to give up that throne of power that they've maintained for 400 years. All these groups have said, "Come join us. We're going to take our country back. We're going to build that wall. We're going to send those people back to where they belong." What these people are telling me, the Klan, the Nazis, the Alt-Right, they're telling me, "Daryl, I don't want my grandkids to be brown." They call it the Browning of America or white genocide through miscegenation. And they're freaked out about that. What they're freaking out about is that their identity is being slowly erased. Are you familiar with the term White Flight?
[00:16:49] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I'm from Detroit. So I think that's almost probably where that might've even originated or at least that's an early example of it, right?
[00:16:57] Daryl Davis: Yeah, I'm going to hook you up with my friend from Detroit, Jeff Schoep.
[00:17:03] Jordan Harbinger: You're listening to The Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest Daryl Davis. We'll be right back.
[00:17:08] This episode is sponsored in part by SimpliSafe. Remember the feeling you got as a kid, getting tucked into bed, or the feeling you get now in the arms of somebody you love, safe and secure. It's a feeling of security that only comes through a human connection and that's why the people at SimpliSafe home security are so important. Of course, SimpliSafe has an award-winning system and has all the technology bells and whistles you'd expect these days but the people at SimpliSafe really take it to the next level. They're there around the clock anytime you need them. Whether it's a fire, burglary, a medical emergency, a burst pipe, or even a problem while you're setting up the system, SimpliSafe has a person with the expertise you need ready to help 24/7. And when you know that there's somebody always there to help, that's a feeling you don't get with any old security system. They'll also tuck you in at night. Just kidding, they won't do that.
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[00:19:07] Jordan Harbinger: Now back to Daryl Davis on The Jordan Harbinger Show.
[00:19:12] I feel like I've heard of him because isn't he — he was running like a Nazi group in Detroit a long time ago.
[00:19:17] Daryl Davis: Yes, indeed. He had the largest neo-Nazi group in this country, the NSM, National Socialist Movement. He was in the group for 27 years. 25 of those 27 years, he was the commander, the leader of that group. Today, he was out of that group in part due to myself and a Muslim woman. Today, he works very hard with this organization Beyond Barriers to help deradicalize others in that movement and help prevent young people from joining these movements. He's a great guy to talk to. Very, very good friend of mine.
[00:19:51] But anyway, back to the White Flight, it barely exists today because anywhere you go now, the landscape has changed colors so much. Anyway you go, there's already somebody there who doesn't look like you.
[00:20:03] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Yeah. Where are you going to fly to? Yeah, exactly.
[00:20:05] Daryl Davis: Where do you go, fly to now? That airline doesn't go there. So people are freaking out about their identity being erased. And so they're running and joining these groups that promised to take the country back and send those people back to where they belong or get rid of them. And so when they go and join these groups and the group fails to take the country back, some of them get frustrated. "You know what? If the Klan can't do it or the neo-Nazis can't do it, I'll do it myself." And that's when they go off solo and they go by themselves into a black church in Charleston, South Carolina and shoot and murder nine black people conducting Bible study, or they go to the Tree of Life synagogue in Pittsburgh and murder 11 Jews or to Walmart in El Paso or this Sikh Indian temple in Oak Creek, Wisconsin. These are called lone wolves.
[00:20:59] And as we get closer and closer to this milestone, unfortunately, we're going to see more and more of these lone wolves in this country, which is why they need to be addressed now. We have intelligence groups organizations in this country that have operatives that can infiltrate some of these groups and gather intelligence and report it back. You know, they join, they fit the profile, but join as a member and foil some of these plots. For example, a few months ago, you will recall the group in Michigan that was going to kidnap and murder the governor.
[00:21:35] Jordan Harbinger: Oh yeah.
[00:21:36] Daryl Davis: We already had intelligence operatives in that route posing as one of those people, which is how we got that intelligence and foil that plot. However, while we have the ability to infiltrate some of these groups, there is no ability to infiltrate a lone wolf. That's only one person. How do you get inside one person? You can't. So, this is why we need to address this problem now. These people are becoming unhinged. That's what that insurrection was all about at the Capitol. Just 20 minutes from where I'm sitting right now. You know, when you see somebody walking through the Capitol with the Confederate battle flag and a Camp Auschwitz t-shirt on, you know what it's about? It's not about tax reform or socializing healthcare or something. This was something else.
[00:22:21] Jordan Harbinger: I saw that guy. When people are willing to sort of wear these t-shirts or sweatshirts that say these blatant slogans, they're not hiding it at all. And I think, unfortunately, it's almost behind like the laughter curtain where you go, "Look at this guy, he's got like three teeth, wearing a stupid t-shirt he probably made in his basement. It looks like he hasn't showered in a week." So we don't think that guy's dangerous. We just think that guy is such an inbred idiot. We don't look at the fact that he's got 8,000 rounds of ammunition in his basement for the race war or whatever.
[00:22:51] Daryl Davis: Exactly. Rahowa as it's called, R-A-H-O-W-A, Rahowa.
[00:22:55] Jordan Harbinger: I never heard that.
[00:22:56] Daryl Davis: That's the term for the race war. It stands for a racial holy war, Rahowa, R-A-H-O-W-A.
[00:23:02] Jordan Harbinger: Got it. Okay.
[00:23:04] Daryl Davis: Yeah. You know, if you remember back in the '80s, maybe when Russia invaded Afghanistan with their tanks and everything, and these people were taking sticks and stones and throwing them at the tanks, but we were laughing. What are they going to accomplish throwing a rock at a tank or a stick at a tank? We laughed. Well, guess what? Some years later.
[00:23:28] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, those Soviets, they rolled right on out of there after a while.
[00:23:31] Daryl Davis: Well, they rolled out of there after a while, but those same people who were throwing sticks and rocks at tanks are the same people who took down our two tallest buildings and put a hole in the Pentagon. So yeah, that's the same analogy as your person, you know, guy who doesn't look like he's had a shower for a week and he's inbred and whatever else, he's got 8,000 rounds of ammunition as you put it. This is not to be laughed at. It needs to be taken seriously.
[00:23:56] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it definitely should scare us. I mean, we see this now. We hear the talk all the time. People are shouting from the rooftops, a lot of these groups are, and we're ignoring it which is at our own peril, of course. I thought it was interesting though, in the documentary, the people that seem to be the hardest on you and frankly, the most disrespectful, refusing to shake your hand, yelling at you, flying off the handle, not letting you talk, we're actually the, like these black activists. And I wonder what you make of that. They were really hard on you in the documentary.
[00:24:25] Daryl Davis: Yeah. Well, let me address a couple of things. One, they didn't know me and they didn't really know my background or understand it and didn't want to at the time, okay. They hit me more than a white person, because I looked like them. And they felt that I was a race traitor, an Uncle Tom, an Oreo. I was selling out and I should be spending more time working with them, uplifting the black community than as they put it sitting down with my Klan buddies or my Klan friends and hanging out. They don't realize the importance of dialogue and communication.
[00:25:02] Let's say a Klansman saw you out with a black girl, maybe you're married to one or you're dating one or whatever, they would hate you more than her because you are of the supreme race and you have lowered yourself. You had defiled yourself to be out with that thing. That's the mentality. So you are a disgrace to your race. That's how they thought about me. If I would open up a book or magazine and I saw a picture of some black guy shaking hands with a guy in a robe and a hood, I have a visceral reaction, but me, I would turn the page and read the story to find out why this is happening. Oh, oh, I get it. Yeah. That's pretty cool. They jumped to a conclusion, don't turn the page, make their own narrative, and that's it, right?
[00:25:49] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:25:50] Daryl Davis: So a year later they reached out to me and we got together for dinner. And we sat down and we talked. They had seen me on interviews. They've seen different things and they would be getting to get it. And we agreed to work together because what they do is important. What I do is important, but the important thing is that we coordinate with each other. They're working in the systemic racism world. I'm working with individuals, but it all has to be done. Racism was a multifaceted thing. There's no one shoe fits all, right? You all do what you do best. And so, we need to work together and we started to do that. Then about a year or so ago, the older guy, he fell off the wagon again and reverted back to the same mentality that you saw in the film, unfortunately, but you know, it happens.
[00:26:36] Let me address Black Lives Matter because they were of the Baltimore Black Lives Matter faction. And I don't say chapter, I say faction. Because Black Lives Matter is not really an organization. It's a movement. And the founders had a great idea when they put it together. They had co-opted that from Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks and the bus boycott. Rosa Parks was not the first black woman to refuse to give up her seat on the bus. There were others but it didn't make news, nationally. It only made news around Montgomery, Alabama. So what Dr. King wanted to do was put the national spotlight on it. So to put Montgomery in a fishbowl and maybe that pressure would cause them to change those laws. All right. So that's what he did. It took a year of the boycott and lo and behold, the Montgomery bus lines changed their policies and blacks would sit wherever they wanted to sit and work.
[00:27:33] So in 2013 in the wake of the Trayvon Martin killing murder, Black Lives Matter was founded and the founders took that same idea of putting the plight of black men who for lack of a better term were being murdered by white police officers for holding their wallet, holding their cell phone, whatever, they got to go to their graves were white men in the same situation, either got to go home or go to jail. Some of them got to go to Burger King on the way to jail. I'm talking about Dylann Roof. You know that story?
[00:28:07] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I didn't know he went to burger king, but I guess that's—
[00:28:10] Daryl Davis: When they arrested him and put him in the car, he said he was hungry. The cops took him to Burger King and bought him a hamburger and then took him to jail.
[00:28:21] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. That is something, that is really—
[00:28:24] Daryl Davis: So that needed to be spotlighted.
[00:28:28] Jordan Harbinger: I would imagine you've seen some serious Klan craziness, right? I mean, they burned crosses and things like that on people's lawns, but I know they also do that like in private and it's probably two different rituals, right?
[00:28:39] Daryl Davis: Okay. Let me give that to you. When they take a five or 10-foot cross and put it on your lawn and set it into flame that is called a cross burning. And that is a threat meant to intimidate you. The message is, "We know who you are, cease and desist move out. Or the next time we come, we mean business." That is a warning. We know who you are. You're a black family in a white neighborhood. You're a gay couple. You are a Jew in a Gentile neighborhood, you know, whatever the case, you're gay, whatever it is, they don't like, they're warning you. "We know who you are. Stop, move out, or we're coming back. And we're probably going to do something to your house."
[00:29:21]When they have their rallies, they have a 20 or 30-foot cross, both crosses are wrapped in burlap. The burlap has been soaked in what they call Clem cologne, which is actually diesel fuel, kerosene. And they set it to flame. When they do this in a rally, it's a ceremonial thing and they're all in their robes and hoods. And what happens, I've seen this many times, they have their torches Klansmen and Klanswomen, they make a big wide circle around this tall cross. They got these torches that are on fire and they move around the cross clockwise. And then one of the leaders, the Grand Dragon or the Imperial Wizard will say, "Klansmen, halt," and they'll all stop. "Klansmen, face the cross," and they all turn in. And then he'll say, "For my country," and they all repeat, "For my country," and they bow. "For my God." "For my God." "For my race." "For my race." "For my Klan." " For my Klan." "Klansmen, approach the cross." And they all closed in around the base of the cross with their torches. "Klansmen, light the cross," and they throw their torches down at the foot of the cross and whoosh, this thing goes to flame. And then they give some speeches and all that kind of stuff. And then they have condiments. And that's the end of the rally.
[00:30:33] Jordan Harbinger: Wow.
[00:30:33] Daryl Davis: So that's cross lighting and cross burning.
[00:30:38] Jordan Harbinger: This is The Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest daryl Davis. We'll be right back.
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[00:34:02] And don't forget, we've got worksheets for many episodes, drills, exercises, other takeaways from the show, those are all in one place. That link is in the show notes at jordanharbinger.com/podcast. Now, for the conclusion of my conversation with Daryl Davis.
[00:34:18] What is it like standing there as a black man in a Klan rally and they're lighting a cross on fire. I mean, surely yes, you're friends with some of the people there, but there's got to be some guys that are like, "What are you doing — what's this guy doing here?" I mean, it can't be sort of a welcome, warm welcome, right?
[00:34:33] Daryl Davis: Right. Absolutely. It's kind of surreal. It's kind of surreal.
[00:34:36] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, to say the least. Yeah.
[00:34:38] Daryl Davis: But when you are invited by the Grand Dragon or the Imperial Wizard, know the top hierarchy, even though some of the subordinates don't like you and don't want you there, they will not do anything to you because they know better. If the higher up invited you is hands-off because otherwise you will reap some punishment. Now, if you go to a rally where you're not invited—
[00:35:00] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. You just show up. I wouldn't recommend that, right?
[00:35:03] Daryl Davis: Well, I've done that before but I've been very fortunate. There are those who don't feel that you should be there. This is sacred ground and you're defiling it.
[00:35:14] Jordan Harbinger: Well, I don't know, you probably wouldn't even share a secret. I mean, you've got to respect their stuff. If you find something out that they don't want to share publicly, you probably don't break their trust, right?
[00:35:22] Daryl Davis: Right.
[00:35:22] Jordan Harbinger: Like they got to have some secret rituals and stuff that you know of that you don't share.
[00:35:27] Daryl Davis: In fact, a real funny story — okay. Let me give you the hierarchy. First of all, today, there is no such thing as the Ku Klux Klan, just like there is no the Black Lives Matter, all these different factions. So there was the Ku Klux Klan and then it splintered into all these different factions. They had fallings out and whatever else. You have all these Klan groups and they all are autonomous. And then there are chapters of each Klan group, wherever you might have the Dixie Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, the Rebel Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, the Confederate Knights, you know, the whatever knights. These are all separate autonomous groups. Now, they all have the same basic by-laws, the same secret handshake, the same passwords, the same titles, and the same colors on their robes that designates the ranks but they are autonomous and they don't like each other. It's funny because when you see them all in public together, they will hold a united front, but behind closed doors, they are rivals with each other.
[00:36:25] Jordan Harbinger: Competing for members and stuff like that.
[00:36:27] Daryl Davis: Exactly. And what happens is some guy is a third grade dropout pumping gas at the gas station and he's vicious and so forth, rampant racist, he moves up the ranks to the Grand Dragon or Imperial Wizard, whatever. And next thing you know, he was driving a 20-year-old beat-up Chevrolet and now, he's driving a Cadillac 2021, and he still works at the gas station. Something's happening. He's pocketing Klan dues for his own gain. So the people get mad and they leave that Klan, go join another one or form their own, all that kind of stuff. And then some people, they want racial change to happen institutionally. They don't want to go out and hang people or beat up. They want to have their members run for public office, county commissioner, sheriff, things like that. And so they go and join some Klan group but the Klan group turns out to be very violent. So they leave and they'll join a more docile one. Others join the Klan, hoping to go out and do some night riding and kick somebody's rear end. But this group is more docile, so they got to go find a violent group. So they splinter off. That's why you have all these different factions.
[00:37:33] Now, if you have your chapter of the Klan established in your state and in another state or in multiple states, you can then consider yourself to be a national Klan. Therefore, you must have a national leader who oversees all the states. We call our national leader, the president. They call theirs the Imperial Wizard. Anybody who's prefixed with the word imperial means that person is a national officer, wizard being the top. An Imperial Klaliff would be like a vice president, vice wizard. And then you have secretary treasurer on and on. Then the next high level down is the state leader. Each state in which you have a chapter has to have a leader. We call it the state leader, the governor. They call theirs, the Grand Dragon. And then a Grand Klaliff will be like the lieutenant governor, and then secretary treasurer. Within the state, you have counties.
[00:38:23] Jordan Harbinger: Wait. Did you say caliphate? Like the Muslim word for or is it Klaliff?.
[00:38:27] Daryl Davis: Klaliff, K-L—
[00:38:28] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, okay. I misheard you.
[00:38:31] Daryl Davis: Well, you're on the right track. You're on the right track because what they call their Bible, their Klan handbook is called the Kloran.
[00:38:39] Jordan Harbinger: Really? What is going on there?
[00:38:43] Daryl Davis: K-L-O-R-A-N.
[00:38:44] Jordan Harbinger: Wow.
[00:38:46] Daryl Davis: Yeah, exactly. So, you know, they appropriate everything for their own use.
[00:38:50] Jordan Harbinger: But it's almost like if you were a troll and you were messing with them, you would use those words and they're like, "No, we're using these." I mean, even the sort of like science fiction ranking titles which I assume just didn't age well, but also they couldn't have ever sounded that great, maybe they did in like 1940.
[00:39:06] Daryl Davis: In the original Klan of 1865, the founders, six founders, former Confederate officers at the end of the Civil War, they wanted to keep something going. They were of Irish-Scottish descent. And they came from the Masons Scottish Rite and that fraternity, that Mason, is a very secret organization. They have all these weird names, all that, not to say that all masons are Klan people. No, they're not but that's where the idea comes from, the secrecy and those weird names.
[00:39:37] Jordan Harbinger: They've got Cyclops and stuff too though, right? I mean that's even more—
[00:39:40] Daryl Davis: Yeah, okay, so I'm getting to that one.
[00:39:43] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:39:43] Daryl Davis: So the county leader is known as the Great Titan, anybody on the great level, has a prefix of the word great means that person's county level, grand level state level, imperial level is national level. Within the county, you have districts. We call our district leader, the councilman, the alderman, the mayor, they call theirs, Exalted Cyclops as a district leader. And then below that it's just plain white robe Klansmen, plain rank and file. So you have all these different officers and it makes them feel important when they have these titles.
[00:40:14] Jordan Harbinger: That's kind of telling right with the sort of almost like exaggerated hyperbolic title kind of shows you why people might join a group like this, right?
[00:40:23] Daryl Davis: Yeah.
[00:40:23] Jordan Harbinger: Feeling a little insignificant become an Exalted Cyclops, sure beats being the guy who pumps gas and gets beat up by his older brothers or neighbors and whose wife left him or something, his kids don't talk to him. "No, I'm the Grand Wizard now, like I'm a big deal, right?"
[00:40:39] Daryl Davis: Exactly.
[00:40:39] Jordan Harbinger: I can't necessarily earn my way to the top. You can sort of hate your way.
[00:40:42] Daryl Davis: And it is a big deal within Klan Den, the invisible empire as they call it. Now, you mentioned the secret rituals and stuff.
[00:40:48] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:40:49] Daryl Davis: Here's a story you'll appreciate. Honest truth, the Exalted Cyclops, district leader. He's getting promoted from Exalted Cyclops to Great Titan, which means he's to be the head of the county. Like we would call it a county manager or a county executive. He was very lazy and he did not study his Klan craft. So, you know, you got to take a test and go through a ritual and then you'll be given or get appointed to this position. He was lazy. He didn't study up on it. And so the rights will be going to be done on the weekend. He calls me up in the middle of the week because he's too embarrassed and he's had like a month to study up for this stuff. He's too embarrassed to call this Grand Dragon or his Imperial Wizard to find out what he needed to know, what he needed to do, et cetera, because they would tell him, "Well, why didn't you study it before? You had a month or blah, blah, blah." Right? So he calls me and tells me his dilemma and wants to know what he has to do because he knows. I know.
[00:41:47] Jordan Harbinger: So a Klansman called you for a crash course in Klan ideology. So he could pass his test.
[00:41:53] Daryl Davis: It's called Klan craft.
[00:41:54] Jordan Harbinger: Wow.
[00:41:55] Daryl Davis: So yeah, Klan craft. So I told him and he passed.
[00:41:58] Jordan Harbinger: There must have been — I mean, every time you do something like that, there must be a little seed where the person goes, "So let me get this straight. I had to call Daryl Davis, my black friend, to tell me how to pass my Klan test so that I can learn more about how we're superior and I hate people who look like him." It just got to like every little — it's like I'm from Michigan so this analogy doesn't make sense in California, but it's like when there's cracks in concrete and then you pour water in there and the water freezes and those cracks just get a little bit bigger every single time. That's got to be kind of like that sort of—
[00:42:30] Daryl Davis: Yeah.
[00:42:31] Jordan Harbinger: —phenomenon.
[00:42:31] Daryl Davis: It takes them a while to connect the dots, but it happens. It happens.
[00:42:36] Jordan Harbinger: I think we've gone quite overtime here, but in closing here, I'd love to get this — you have a good sort of bit about Space Age times and Stone-Age minds. I'd love to kind of get that and maybe we can wrap with it. What do you think?
[00:42:48] Daryl Davis: Whatever you like.
[00:42:48] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:42:49] Daryl Davis: Well, what I've said before is this. That it bothers me a great deal that we call ourselves the greatest nation on the face of this earth. Now, there's nothing wrong with being patriotic and loyal. And I am very loyal and I am very patriotic. I love my country. It does have its flaws but we are progressing and we will get to where we need to be at some point. So I'm not saying anything against the country but we have to admit that there are some flaws here. I don't adhere to that statement that we are the greatest. Maybe I would bend and say that perhaps technologically, we are the greatest. After all we Americans put a man on the moon, we invented that technology to put Neil Armstrong up there on the moon before anybody else. And while Neil Armstrong was up there walking around on the moon, making that famous statement, "One small step for man and one giant leap for mankind." We were able to talk to Neil Armstrong via satellite radio phone, all the way from earth, all the way to the moon. We Americans invented that technology. Everybody who's going to watch this podcast or listen to it, every one of them has email and have a cell phone. You type a few words, type a few numbers, hit send, and you're talking to somebody, right next door to your state or halfway across the country, or even anywhere on the planet, anywhere on the face of this earth, we invented that technology.
[00:44:22] So, how is it that we as Americans can talk to people as far away as the moon or anywhere on the face of this earth, but yet there's so many of us who have difficulty talking to the person who lives right next door, because he or she is a different color, a different religion, a different persuasion, a different whatever. Perhaps they are a family member seated at your dinner table who voted for a different candidate and you can't talk to them anymore. How is it that we can do that, but we can't carry on these conversations? It seems to me that before we can call ourselves the greatest nation on the face of this earth, our ideology needs to catch up to our technology. And when we get both of those up there, then we can truly brag about how great we are. Because listen, this is the 21st century, this racist nonsense does not belong in any century, let alone the 21st. We are living in Space Age times, but there are still too many of us thinking with Stone-Age minds.
[00:45:34] Jordan Harbinger: Daryl Davis, thank you so much. This is fascinating, man. There's a lot — I'm sure there's even more. You're continually doing this, right? This isn't like a project that you got done with. Like this is still going on.
[00:45:44] Daryl Davis: Absolutely. Absolutely. Let's call this part one and you bring me back some time for part two.
[00:45:49] Jordan Harbinger: What are you currently working on? I mean, you're probably got a lot of friends that are sort of teeter-tottering on the edge of leaving, whatever the Klan or whatever other hate group, du jour they've joined. What other projects do you have going? I mean, there's a documentary. We'll link in the show notes. You've got a book. Are you redoing the book? I know it was, it's been a while.
[00:46:06] Daryl Davis: I just finished the second book with my agent now. I'm working with people like Jeff Schoep and Beyond Barriers, helping him and others come out of that radicalization and working in preventive work. I work with them with a group called Parents For Peace. We'd have a lot of conflicted parents because their kids have been involved in different kinds of things, great organization. Another one called Parallel Networks, which is run by my good friend, Jesse Morton. Jesse is a former Al-Qaeda extremist.
[00:46:35] Jordan Harbinger: Wow.
[00:46:36] Daryl Davis: Yeah. Quite fascinating story. I can fix you up with some of these people, if you like.
[00:46:39] Jordan Harbinger: That would be great. I mean, Al-Qaeda is, you know, and Nazi groups and things like that. I mean, I just want to know—
[00:46:45] Daryl Davis: Sure, I'll be happy to.
[00:46:46] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:46:46] Daryl Davis: And I worked with him and his group. He knows a lot about extremism and that kind of Jihadi extremism and white supremacy, there are some parallels there as to why people join those groups and how to get them out. And people who've been in these groups, they know their recruitment tactics to bring others in. So therefore, they know how to get them out as well. People like Jeff Schoep, Jesse Morton. I work with an organization called FAIR which has come up with new learning standards to address a lot of the controversy surrounding what kids are taught about racism in schools, you know, good CRT and bad CRT and FAIR is trying to get all that cleared up. So I'm happy to work with a lot of these different groups, but I am continuing to meet with white supremacists and speak to them, go to their rallies, try to do what I can to do my part, to bring our country together. And make this the greatest nation it should be.
[00:47:41] Jordan Harbinger: Hell yeah. Thank you, Daryl so much. This is really, really interesting. And we'll talk to you soon.
[00:47:45] Daryl Davis: Take care. Thank you.
[00:47:48] Jordan Harbinger: If you found this episode interesting, here's a trailer for another episode of The Jordan Harbinger Show with Maria Konnikova, who went from being someone who had no interest whatsoever in poker to raking in big bucks as an international poker champion. Here's a quick look inside.
[00:48:03] Maria Konnikova: Poker is actually the perfect game for human decision-making because it's a game of incomplete information. No one cares where the hell you went to school. No one cares what you look like. No one cares what you did or didn't do. If you can afford the buy-in, great.
[00:48:19] So there are people sitting at the table, some of whom have Ivy League education, others of whom dropped out of high school and had to wrestle with homelessness and built up their bankroll from $10 and took that $10 and are now millionaires.
[00:48:33] We make decisions and incorporate things that really shouldn't matter all the time. Like the weather, we don't realize that we're depressed because it's raining outside. And instead, we're like, "Oh, life sucks. Everything sucks." But it's so cool that if you draw someone's attention to the reason why they're feeling this way, they're totally capable of discounting it and saying, "Oh, okay, yeah, I'm depressed right now, but it's because of the weather."
[00:48:56] Can you figure out not just your own triggers, but the other person's triggers? Some people when they lose a lot, they're going to become really cautious because they don't want to lose even more. Some people when they lose a lot are going to become extra reckless because they want to gain it back very, very quickly. Same event, totally different reactions. Can I try to figure out what the psychological dynamic for this person is? How did they react to loss? Some people when they win a lot, they're going to become extra cautious because now they don't want to lose it. They're like, "Oh, I have all these chips. I want to guard them." Other people when they win a lot. They're like, "Yeah, let's push my advantage. Let's go!"
[00:49:31] If you can start to figure out and pull apart things like that, all of a sudden you have a really good psychological picture of the person. And you can take advantage of it. This really intrigued me. I thought, let me read more about this poker thing and decided, "Hey, you know what? This is my book. Why don't I learn poker? Why don't I actually see how far I can go?" And I ended up becoming good and winning a major international title and getting a sponsorship from PokerStars and joining Team Pro, and somehow found myself as a professional poker player.
[00:50:03] Jordan Harbinger: For more, including how people make decisions and what poker can tell us about reading human motivation, how to spot real physical tells at the poker table and in real life, and how we can control and prevent emotional thinking aka going on tilt, check out episode 371 of The Jordan Harbinger Show with Maria Konnikova.
[00:50:25] Amazing conversation, right? You know, you got to wonder what's the vibe when you're having dinner with your wife and a Klan member and his wife, and they tell you something like, "Well, the races shouldn't mix," and you're sitting next to your Caucasian wife, just munching on a Caesar salad. I don't know. It's just got to be kind of awkward at points to befriend Klansmen who are obviously saying, "Well, you know, this, that, and the other thing, but not you, we're friends." I mean, it's just got to be so exhausting. He's obviously super charming and very, very understanding. Reminds me of that quote from Abraham Lincoln, something like, "Do I not destroy my enemies when I make them my friends?" Brilliant quote, I'm going to make sure I got that right. I'm pretty sure that I did.
[00:51:05] This episode reminds me a bit of Megan Phelps-Roper. The interview that I did with her that's episode 302. She left the Westboro Baptist Church because she met her now-husband on Twitter, I think. And they were playing Words with Friends or some Scrabble game on the phone and the discourse slowly deradicalized her as well. Again, that's episode 302, a really popular episode. I highly recommend going back and checking it.
[00:51:29] And remember if you're just talking to the same people about things they already know, then you're preaching to the choir. You need to find someone who disagrees with you and figure out why they have that perspective. That's a teaching there from Daryl Davis that I think was in his book, but we didn't quite mention at least not verbatim during the show. He's really, really good about that. And he, as you can see, went to an extreme, to find somebody with a very different perspective on everything. And remember to ask yourself, do I want to wait and see what my society becomes? Or do I want to play a part in shaping my society?
[00:52:04] The links to his documentaries and books will be in the show notes. Please use our website links if you buy books from any guest on the show. That always helps support us. Worksheets for the show are in the show notes. Transcripts are in the show notes. There's a video of this interview going up on our YouTube channel at jordanharbinger.com/youtube. We've also got our brand new clips channel with cuts that don't make it to the show or highlights from the interviews that you can't see anywhere else. jordanharbinger.com/clips is where you can find that. I'm at @JordanHarbinger on both Twitter and Instagram, or just hit me on LinkedIn if you want to get in touch.
[00:52:36] I'm teaching you how to connect with great people and manage relationships using the same system, software, and tiny habits that I use every single day. That's our Six-Minute Networking course. It's free. I'm teaching you how to dig the well before you get thirsty over at jordanharbinger.com/course.
[00:52:52] This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Millie Ocampo, Ian Baird, Josh Ballard, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for the show is that you share it with friends when he finds something useful or interesting. And again, I said this last episode, this is a fascinating conversation. It is a great jumpstart to The Jordan Harbinger Show to the podcast, so share this foreign wide, please if you know somebody who is on the fence about listening. I hope you find something great in every episode. Please share the show with those you care about. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on this show, so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time.
[00:53:33] Bridget Phetasy: This is Walk-Ins Welcome with Bridget Phetasy. I love hearing people's stories of resilience and grit. This is why I created this podcast. We are very excited to welcome Jim Gaffigan, Yasmine Mohammed, Glenn Beck, Tim Dillon, Abigail Shrier, Jeff Garlin, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Sam Harris, Heather Heying, Jonah Goldberg, Ben Shapiro, Glenn Greenwald, Sarah Shahi, Colin Quinn. There's a culture of victimhood then let's tell stories of grit and survival. Subscribe and listen now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast.
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