53: How to Stop Being a Victim | Feedback Friday

Transcript for Feedback Friday - How to Stop Being a Victim (Episode 53)

Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. I'm here with producer, Jason DeFillippo. And today, Linda Carroll here on the Jordan Harbinger Show. We love having conversations with our fascinating guests and this week we had Shane Snow talking about how to manage and build talented teams, and Cal Fussman telling stories as usual and talking about his amazing life and interviews with all of the wonderful and sometimes not so wonderful people that he's come across. Of course, our primary mission is to pass along there and our experiences and insights to you. In other words, the real purpose of this show is to have conversations directly with you and that's what we're going to do today here on Feedback Friday. You can reach us at friday@jordanharbinger.com. And Jason, we've got Linda Carroll with us. Why don't we tell everybody why she's one of our favorites.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:00:47] Brutal Linda gets to take the heat for the things that sometimes we don't want to say, but she does. So that's why we love Linda because she does not skirt around the issues and tells it like it is.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:59] That's right. And Linda, how long have you been a marriage and family therapist? Is that what you do exactly? Is that your title?

Linda Carroll: [00:01:06] My title is marriage and family therapist, which I've done for about 37 years. And the last two years, I've been a lifestyle coach ,and I did that because I work all over the country with people. And I couldn't go there and be a therapist because I'm only licensed in Oregon and I thought I'll do that to make it legal. But then I got into coaching and I love it. So that's a whole other thing I'm doing now is, is doing love coaching.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:01:32] That's so interesting. So you can't call it therapy if it's overstate lines. There's a joke in there somewhere, yeah.

Linda Carroll: [00:01:39] There isn't. Yes there's like, but there is a difference between therapy and coaching. I mean with therapy, whatever comes in the door and whatever the issues I can usually manage them or I need to sometimes refer. But with coaching, if sometimes I'll see people and I'll see a couple and the problem will seem like it's with the couple, but one person then I realize it's clinically depressed and depression I think blows apart more marriages in just about anything. So if someone's clinically depressed, I can't treat that as a coach and I will refer them to someone, to someone else to manage it. If there's a mental health issue, I don't treat that as a coach and it's sort of a relief actually. So I'm really working with people in a different way, and I have both. I do both. But that's kind of the main difference.

[00:02:29] Another way you could describe the difference is coaching is a lot about looking forward and a lot of therapy is, it has certainly a lot of, what are my dreams, where am I going? But it's also very much about looking in the rear view mirror and what's getting in my way, so that's kind of a quick and easy way. And having been a therapist so long, I can't really say that I have them that separated, but the coaching is much more on strengths and skills and what's ahead.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:02:59] Well, we're lucky to have Linda here with us during Feedback Fridays, and of course, I want to get right down to it. Jason, what's the first thing out of the mailbag?

Jason DeFillippo: [00:03:07] First, I'd like to thank you for all the work you do on your podcast. I enjoy everything about it and I've noticed a marked improvement in the product since you all set out on your own. Thank you very much. Now to my question, I serve in the military and there is a soldier in my unit that I would like your advice on how to interact better with. To start, I want to say that he's a great person. He works hard and does his best. He lived in Thailand briefly and married a woman from there in constantly talks about how great Thailand is. You think this food is great, try it in Thailand. I've also seen how rough his home life can be. His wife often speaks disparagingly to him. He also goes around six seconds. We timed it, between talking even when everyone is obviously watching TV or no one is listening, he talks. I think he's just craving social interaction and I try my best to be kind to him because I try to treat everyone like they're six seconds away from going on a rampage. But I've seen others either blatantly ignore him or make rude remarks. Any advice on how to interact is greatly appreciated. Thanks again, Trying To Be Kind.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:04:08] This is interesting. It sounds like Linda that he's there. So these guys are in the military and this guy is just annoying everybody, all the time.

Linda Carroll: [00:04:16] Yeah. But here's the part I thought interesting was from his letter. I try to keep everyone like they're six seconds away from going on a rampage. I think that is sort of to me highlighted in red, I have never thought that my whole life. Have you guys thought that, everyone people are six seconds away from flipping out and going on a rampage?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:04:38] I mean this maybe in the military, people are really stressed out. I don't know. I definitely don't think like that when I'm around other people. No.

Linda Carroll: [00:04:45] So that brings to me the question, is he trying to manage a guy he thinks maybe really kind of dangerous or is he just trying to be kind because he's trying to be kind? I think that's the first question that I would have. And if he has concern about this guy, should he do something more about it?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:05:06] I think he's probably in this particular letter thinking, everyone in the military is probably stressed and homesick or something like that. So maybe, maybe he's just trying to be nice to this guy because everyone else treats him like crap and ignores him because he just won't shut up about Thailand.

Linda Carroll: [00:05:22] Okay. So that's like maybe 70 percent, but I just want to highlight the 30 percent I'm making that statistic up that if he does have some sense that this guy could flip out, that he might need to do something more about that. I can't help thinking about all the flip outs that happen. How many people see somebody on the edge and don't do anything about it? That's the first thing that came up. I thought it was just an interesting way he phrased it. That may be about the writer and it may be about what he’s seeing. I think the next thing he could do is how to interact is to interact directly with him about it. I wouldn't say to him, I think you've got a lot of problems. You're sort of a social outcast here, but I might say something to him like, I noticed that you talk a lot about Thailand and I noticed that you talk about the olden days and I'm just wondering how things are going for you generally?

[00:06:25] If this guy is trying to be kind, he has a good heart, maybe that's going to give this person a way to open up and talk to him. So we don't change anybody, but sometimes when you ask the question, tell me more about that. It has a remarkable response with people. People who talk all the time often it's because they don't feel heard ever. And when you really hear them, that sometimes stops them or you find out something else. Like, I'm really depressed, or I am six seconds from going on a rampage, or I hate it here, or whatever it is. So I would do, one is I would explore whether his feelings are that this guy is in real trouble and maybe a danger to himself or other people. And two, then start inquiring of the guy that if he's not just kind but be interested in him. Tell me about it. What's going on. You talk about Thailand a lot, I'd like to hear more about your life and see what comes out.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:07:31] How do you broach that subject? Is there a specific way to do that or is it just kind of showing interest in him generally? Because I think what he might be afraid of is, “Oh man, if I show interest in this guy, he's never going to shut up now.”

Linda Carroll: [00:07:45] and ESPs, but you know what? Sometimes it's the opposite because when you show interest in somebody, what you find out is I'm really unhappy. Nobody likes me. I hate it here. That opens you to say, it might be good for you to talk to somebody because the military now they have a lot of awareness of PTSD, and they have a lot of possibilities for someone professional to talk to. But you don't get there by just telling someone that, you have to make some kind of a pathway to them where they can respond to you by telling them what's going on in them, and then you can lead them to the next person.

[00:08:22] So I think he needs more information. He asked how to interact with this guy? I’d interact with him by saying, tell me more. By saying I'd like to hear more about Thailand. What was it like? What do you miss? Sounds like you really miss it. If you think you could be depressed or something else going on. And if this guy's eager to talk, he'll either just chatter or else he'll go to what's really bothering him. And then trying to be kind can be really kind, by helping them get to somebody who could really help him.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:08:53] Oh, interesting. Okay, I like this. I think getting beyond the superficial level of conversation and finding out what's really bugging this guy. Because it sounds like maybe he's not just annoying for no reason. He's probably trying to, or he could be trying to throw out a little bit of a cry for help and he has no idea how to do it. So he just rambles on about nothing.

Linda Carroll: [00:09:13] Yeah, that's right. That's often what happens. But he's not just rambling out about something because he's talking about, he's perseverating about Thailand and perseveration is often a symptom of something else going on.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:09:27] All right, Jason, what's next?

Jason DeFillippo: [00:09:29] I'm not your average listener, but I certainly enjoy listening, especially to Brutal Linda. So here's one for her, in case you ever have her back on the show. Well, you're in luck today. Here's my dilemma. I'm a 40 something mother and grandmother of four. See I told you not the average listener. I'm on my second marriage. We've been married for almost eight years and share two children, one adopted. Together their ages are nine and 11. I have two grown children from my first marriage that lasted 10 years. I married at 19. Back to back marriages. Yes, not a good thing, I know. The problem is with me. It seems as if I've developed a pattern of finding someone to care about me and then I do everything in my power to destroy it. I can't seem to control myself. I deliberately start fights and threatened to move, et cetera.

[00:10:17] I know this isn't good but can't stop. I only assume it's me. Although my first husband was addicted to prescription drugs, cocaine, and pornography. My current husband does none of those things but has alcoholic parents and drug addicted siblings. Me on the other hand, am you're boring, old, occasional weekend drinker. I don't use any drugs. Quite the opposite. I am in a healthy lifestyle, but back to the topic. My husband does everything he can to try and make me happy, which I know only I can do that. We both met at work, but I resigned after several years because our relationship took a turn for the worst. We both decided that it would be best if I stayed at home with our children while he worked. I agreed because I had an affair with a coworker and working beside him would only make matters worse.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:11:03] My gosh.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:11:06] The plot thickens. It's been over a year and although I can't say I haven't enjoyed my time at home with my kids, I feel a bit trapped. I resent my husband when he accomplishes something and I can't get over being angry with him and I don't know why. I know my decisions in picking a mate are not too smart due to my own low self-esteem maybe, but I would like to know why I have this rage against him. He swears he's perfect and always has an answer for everything. Me on the other hand will admit to my flaws and even admitted to my affair. A couple of years ago, I moved out for about six months. We reconciled, but things have not been the same. He always throws the past back in my face and is violent with his words as am I. I know this isn't healthy, but I can't seem to find a way out of my bad behavior. Any suggestions? I know I'm leaving a lot out, but as I write this, I'm struggling to find the right words to describe my life. Thank you. And keep up the great work. Signed, Uncontrollable Grandma.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:12:03] Wow.

Linda Carroll: [00:12:06] What's your wow, Jordan?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:12:08] I mean the first thing that comes to me is that the hell she says, well I admitted to my flaws. I even admitted to my affair. I think it's possible that the affair was also just another symptom of her resenting her husband and she did it on purpose to piss him off. I could be reading into that too much, but I think the whole thing has to do with her weird relationship, her sort of adversarial relationship with her husband. I don't think she just randomly had an affair and that caused all these problems. I think that was a part of a greater issue or set of issues that she has with this guy. And it's like sitting Nancy over here.

Linda Carroll: [00:12:43] Yeah. But the issue she has with this guy is part of a greater issue that she has with herself. I am helpless. She says over and over, the problem is with me. I'm the problem. I know it isn't good. I can't control myself. I'm into a healthy lifestyle. But I had an affair with a coworker and I couldn't help it. I know that my picking mate isn't smart due to my own self-esteem, but I don't know why. I know it's not healthy. I can't find a way out. This is a woman who is a helpless victim, and I think that probably is not your husband. I think the problem is you don't just have an affair because you have a bad marriage. You know as well as I do in all the talks about affairs, you make the choice.

[00:13:30] She throws it in so casually like this life changing major event in a marriage and this life changing event for a human being who decides to have an affair. “Oh by the way, I had an affair at someone at work, so maybe I'm the one that should stay home.” She minimizes herself over and over, and her trouble. She minimizes her trouble. She says, I'm into a healthy lifestyle. I just take a few drinks on the weekend, but she has this destructive behavior over and over, and she sort of throws out these lines like, oh well, my first husband was addicted to drugs and alcohol, and oh, I had an affair, and oh he was addicted to pornography and cocaine, and oh by the way, I think that I'm really healthy, but I can't help anything that I do. I would be really interested in her history. I think she has a victim consciousness about she can't help it. She can't make her life what she wants and I think she better get some help ASAP and figure it out, she’ll just keep -- she calls herself uncontrollable. I think when you don't know that you have any agency over what you do over your life, that you've got a really big problem. B-I-G, Big. And that if she believes she's uncontrollable, that she probably is.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:14:50] So what can somebody about that? If they find themselves feeling like they're out of control, you said get some help ASAP. What does somebody even do? Just go grab a therapist and say, look, I've got all these problems I've created for myself.

Linda Carroll: [00:14:50] Well, she might start by going to Dr. Google, looking up, what does it mean to be a victim, and start to read. There's really good books about it, being a victim and grabbing herself a therapist. I mean, I know that's kind of a default place I go to, but I think when a person has the same, wasn't it John Lennon that said, if the definition of somebody said, “The definition of insanity is when you do the same thing over and over and expect a different outcome.”

Jason DeFillippo: [00:15:27] It was not John Lennon and it was not Einstein, but yes, it's been bandied around.

Linda Carroll: [00:15:31] But it's been given to everybody’s been attributed to it, but this is what she's doing over and over. I am helpless. I'm a victim, and I tend to tell her what to do when she calls yourself uncontrollable isn't going to make a difference. She knows what to do. It's in this letter. I think this letter is a cry for help and that you don't just have an affair with a coworker or put it in a line in a letter to you as though it's nothing. It's sort of like, “Oh, one day I was late to work.” Not the same thing.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:16:02] I was telling Jordan in the bag channel. I'm like, whoops, penis. That's kind of the way that she describes it. It's like, “Oh, I just happened to fall on it and it was there. And oh, we're just going to get, we're going to move past it.”

Linda Carroll: [00:16:13] Let's just keep moving on. But I'm out of control. So when you're out of control, that's big trouble. Don't you think? I mean, I don't think this is a little, I don't think this is a little problem. Her describing herself as out of control or low self-esteem or I know it's my fault or bad choices. It comes out over and over. I can't find a way out of my bad behavior. What do you hear with that? That's her last sentence or third to last sentence. I know this is not healthy, but I can't find a way out of my bad behavior. If you can't find a way out of your bad behavior, you need some help or you will keep on doing it.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:16:55] You mentioned grabbing a book about victim mindset and then eventually seeking therapy. Can you recommend a book on the victim mindset?

Linda Carroll: [00:17:01] There's a book that I think is really good called Breaking Free From The Victim Trap from Diane Zimberoff. She's really good. Breaking Free From The Victim Trap, I would do that one and I think she'd be good to listen to some of Brené Brown’s stuff about being pleasers, trying to be pleaser, because I think she's not looking at herself very much. Okay, another one I think is good is Breaking Free Of The Drama Triangle by Barry Weinhold. That's another good one. So I have her start reading books and that's a good place to start about getting over being a victim. But she might need some help to do it because it's not so simple.

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Jordan Harbinger: [00:21:25] All right. Jason, what's next out on the mailbag?

Jason DeFillippo: [00:21:28] I'm 26 years old. I was raised by a mother who once struggled with substance abuse issues, but she did the best she could and I love her. My father died when I was three. We were very poor, but luckily my grandparents insured, my brother and I were always taken care of and had a roof over our head. Nowadays, many people tell me I'm extremely mature and responsible for my age. I'm not exactly sure what that means, but I attribute this to my childhood and the need to grow up very fast. I tend to feel responsible for taking care of everyone in my family, even though I'm the youngest. Currently, I own my own home. I'm working on my master's degree. I have two dogs. I'm single. I exercise frequently. I work full time. I wish I had more friends. I am so exhausted, but I keep going.

[00:22:10] It seems like these things make me happy. My dogs are my world. I like my house. My job is stressful, but also can be rewarding. School is a challenge, but exciting. The problem, I'm super depressed and none of it is making me really happy. Nothing seems satisfying and I always feel like I'm missing some critical piece in my life. Something that should magically make it all better. Yeah, I know that doesn't exist. About four months ago, I began taking an antidepressant. It helped. It took away the hopeless feeling that I was experiencing. Even though the medication took away the sad feeling, it didn't take away the feeling that I'm missing something important in my life. I sometimes think I'm missing companionship. I go back and forth wondering if I'm even ready to be a companion to some other person. Then when I do feel ready, I completely lose interest and can't even find the motivation to develop a relationship.

[00:22:58] It's frustrating because I want to fall in love, get married and start a family more than anything or do I see? I'm so conflicted. I was in a very unhealthy relationship about two years ago. It ended because I found out he was lying to me and had a hidden drug addiction. After some effort to help him, he refused to seek treatment and I ended the relationship. What do I want? What do I need? It's all so confusing. Is everything that I'm experiencing just simply because the 20s are emotional and rough? Will I grow out of this? Any advice from others with a little more life experience than me would be awesome. I just feel stuck. I don't know what I'm stuck in or what will get me out. Thanks a million, What's My Name?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:23:38] Yeah, Linda. What do you think?

Linda Carroll: I think that she has really good survival instincts. I think that she has put a sort of a way of naming her past, like her mom had a substance abuse, but she did as good as she can. My father was poor, but my grandparents helped. I got depressed and I took antidepressants. I think that her survival instincts are excellent. I think what she's missing is her growing herself into herself instincts, and that what she's really missing is herself. That part of, as a kid, which she had to do when as kids, when we have to survive, which a lot of her childhood was about survival rather than growing into herself. You know, when your parents hold the world up for you -- and I talk about it good enough, not perfect but good enough -- then we get a chance to grow into who we're meant to be. But when they're not able to hold a world up for us when they're barely making it and in some cases not making it like sometimes with her mom or her dad, then life is really just about maintaining and surviving.

[00:24:46] And as I said, I think she's done that really well. I mean she's trying to grow herself. She's working on a master's degree. She loves her dog. I think all those things are really good signs. But what's missing is “Who am I? Who am I underneath all this? What are my dreams? Where do I want to go?” And I think she says it. So I think this is a person who could use either a life coach or doing a lot of journaling, a lot of reflecting on what she’d love to do. One of the things I ask people when I work with them is, “What did you love to do as a kid? What did you do when time stood still?” If you asked my husband, he would say, “I saved baby birds. And I played with mice, I grew mice, I sold mice, and I hung out with dogs,” and he's a veterinarian.

[00:25:42] What did I like to do as a kid? I like to talk to my friends, which got me kicked out of school and bad grades. But I love to talk to my friends and hear their stories and have them hear mine. And I was a little mini thing. If I'd been in the therapy class in the third grade, I had gotten an A. But instead I was in geography, so it was there from the very beginning. What I love to do though, and so I think that her tried to sort out in the situation where she was surviving, what came up for her again and again? Did she love to draw, to write, to stare at the trees, to be in nature, that somewhere there are clues in that childhood where she is getting through that also show who she could grow into. So reflecting on those questions is going to help her find herself. Because I think that the most important part of finding a partner is when you have a self, that’s fairly developed and you know who you are, you have a way of finding the right kind of person. When you don't know who you are, you're just looking for someone to fill you. So that's my take.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:26:49] I like this. It makes sense. It seems like, like you said, our survival instincts are really good. So she kind of knows what she has to do, but she's never really focused on what she wants to do. And so that's why she says, “Oh, I want a family or do I? I'm so conflicted.” I don't think she's conflicted. She's probably thinking, well, everyone says I'm supposed to have this, but I don't really want it because I don't know what I want. So she's following a track where it's almost like she's emulating a person that has a healthy past, right?

Linda Carroll: [00:27:18] Yes. But she loves her dogs, so we know that. And she says school is exciting but a challenge. She knows that she likes school, she likes learning. So there's a few things here that are, and she also was in an unhealthy relationship and she ended it. And she know, it sounds like that's pretty healthy. You're in a relationship, you're partners into drugs and alcohol. They're an addict. You say you need to change this. They say no, you say bye. That's really healthy. And so she knows how to survive and that's what she's good at. But she doesn't know how to grow herself and thrive into who she's meant to be. So I think that her job is finding her dreams, finding what she really, really wants to do with her life, and then she'll find the right person.

[00:28:11] She said, what is my name? I think her. The way she signed this, it's right there. What is my name? That's right. What is your name? And that's the charge to her is finding out who you are, who you really are under the survival person? And then you're going to know what direction to go in. I want to hear great quote. Two things you have to do in your life. One is to find out where you're going, and one is to find out who's going with you. And if you get them in the wrong order, you're in trouble.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:28:41] Oh, that's interesting.

Linda Carroll: [00:28:43] Isn't that good? And often we look at who's going with me because we want someone to fill the vacancy. But the vacancy is our self. So how many people say I've outgrown my partner? Well, it's not that you outgrew them usually, it's that you started to grow yourself and thought, I don't fit with this person. And so it's like once you start growing in the direction of who you are, then you're in a much better position to find a person who's going to fit for you. But when you don't know who you are, you just want a human body. So keep asking the questions and ask them more deeply so you can know what your name is. That's what I'd say to her. Once you know your name, you might have a better idea of who can join you in your on your life path.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:29:28] This episode is sponsored in part by HostGator. You have to have your own home on the web. It is just that simple with the ever shifting landscape of social media. People need to be able to find you anytime, anywhere. Even if somebody decides to, “ Oh, we're going to make it harder for people to find your company unless you pay us.” You know what I'm talking about. That's why we recommend HostGator's Website Builder. You can easily create professional looking and feature packed websites. Best part, no coding, no lopsided tilde in a wrong place and now everything's upside down. No oops, I left to space and now nothing loads. You can choose from over a hundred mobile friendly templates. Your site's going to look good on any device, smartphone, tablet, desktop, whatever. HostGator is going to give you a ton of ad-ons so you can do things like increase your search engine visibility without being an expert in SEO or integrate with PayPal and allow customers to buy directly from your website.

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[00:32:02] All right, Jason. Next one.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:32:04] To say it straight. I'm a pretty attractive 29 year old female. I married my husband at 22, and he's three years older, and since then I've only improved myself physically, mentally, intellectually, and spiritually. Not only am I in great shape and take care of my looks, I'm also intelligent, curious, essential, and can crack a joke like one of the boys. However, my husband has after a decade together started taking me completely for granted. It's like he just can't see me as a romantic partner anymore. I can count on four fingers how many times he's paid me a compliment this year. You look not bad is his favorite.

Linda Carroll: [00:32:41] Oh my God.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:32:42] Geez.

Linda Carroll: [00:32:44] Oh my God.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:32:45] And an exact zero fingers how many times he has told me in words that he loves me. I received my last kissed two months in 26 days ago. He stopped buying me flowers, writing me cards, birthdays, and other occasions go by pretty much unnoticed. I don't care about material things though I would appreciate a hi when he comes home and may be some action in the bedroom once a week. Heck, at this point I'd feel appreciated if he would eat my home cooked meals and say thank you instead of telling me how I just can't seem to get it right, or it's not bad. He's a foodie and compares my meals to his favorite Michelin starred restaurants. He shows no interest in anything I do. When I tell them about my new marathon PR or show him the new aerial gymnastics trick I learned. He always seems to find something negative to say. I feel like I've tried everything. She's doing aerial gymnastics.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:33:35] Literally doing aerial gymnastics. This guy.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:33:41] Man! I flirt with and compliment them. I show interest in his work and hobbies, yet have my own life and business to take care of, so I'm most definitely not monkey tailing him around. In fact, I'm the least needy and jealous wife I know. I've even tried playing hard to get. Although as a woman I find that ridiculous. I constantly work on my communication skills and do my best to be the best wife I can be. Sometimes I feel like he has trained me to keep reaching for something that's unreachable. All this said, we are very comfortable and happy together on a day to day basis. He's a good roommate, but I feel like I need and deserve more. I'm tired of feeling like just another person in the house. My questions are, how could a girl you got used to manage to catch your attention again? I've tried expressing my feelings, but it seems to make him want to close up and protect himself rather than listen and have an open conversation. Therapy is out of the question for him. I just want him to be interested in me. Again, any tips, tricks, tools for me to apply? I heard that it only takes a few months for a guy to stop appreciating his wife regardless of how attractive she is in all aspects. This scares me. I frequently hear that I'm out of his league, but I truly love him and want nothing more than our passion to rekindle. Thank you so much in advance. Sincerely, All This And Brains Too.

Linda Carroll: [00:34:53] Wow.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:34:54] Yikes.

Linda Carroll: [00:34:56] Yikes. Oh, two things really strike me about this. I frequently hear that I'm out of his league. I want to tell you, I've been married for almost 40 years. If my husband said that to me, I would probably go off down the road. I mean, that is the most outrageous, insulting thing to say to another person, and for her not to be insulted, it's sort of interesting. Number two, please excuse my English. It's not my native language. I'm interested in what her culture is and whether there's a cultural issue here in some way.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:35:33] They look Scandinavian.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:35:35] Yeah, she's Scandinavian.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:35:36] I mean they look that way. The name is Scandinavian, but I don't want to say it.

Linda Carroll: [00:35:41] And number three, my advice to her is give it up. I don't mean she has to divorce him or not, I don't know. But she's trying to change him. She's trying to get him to be different. This guy sounds like a jerk. It's one thing to not be interested in your partner, to be bored, to forget to show them you appreciate them, but to say you're out of my league. I think that is the jerk diagnosis. That he is so unappreciative that he compares her cooking. He's mean, he sound like a meanie, and she keeps trying to be nice to him. It's sort of like, here's what it reminds me of. I remember a girlfriend, I have the sixth grade and there was a bully, and she was always trying to get the bully to like her and the bully got meaner and meaner and meaner. And one day she said, I'm done. And she ignored the bully and then the bully started coming around to be her friend. And I never forgot that. And I went to a Catholic school, we were supposed to let the bully, it didn't turn out well. She is trying to love this guy or she is trying to please him into appreciating her and they're in a game. They're in a real loop. And the more she tries, the more he says it's not working, you're out of my league. So then she tried to harder.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:37:03] Well, actually I need to break in here because she says she frequently hears that I'm out of his league, which means she's the hotter one. But she doesn't specifically say that he says that. So I just want to make sure that we're on the same page with that. Because it sounded like you were, you were judging him because he said that, and it doesn't sound like he said that.

Linda Carroll: [00:37:20] Okay. So maybe he didn't say that, but he says to her, you look not bad. He says to her that compares her meals to his favorite starred restaurants. That sounds like he is putting her down all the time.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:37:41] Yeah, yeah. He just sounds like a jerk. He sounds like a guy who's, he's either a jerk or he's so afraid to give her a compliment because, look, Linda, I'm going to throw this out here. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he really is aware that she's out of his league. He's trying to take her down a peg thinking, well, if I keep her down a peg, she won't leave me because I'll have her. I'll be managing herself esteem, but it's not really working.

Linda Carroll: [00:38:05] Well on someone with that kind of maturity should be with it a mosquito. I mean they're like that's on the ground. That is like second grade thinking. The emotional intelligence and that possibility is so sad that he is out of her league then. He's mean.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:38:25] She's out of his league. Yeah.

Linda Carroll: [00:38:27] That's right. She's out of his league.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:38:28] She's doing aerial gymnastics for him. I'm sorry, I come home and my wife is doing aerial gymnastics. My attention is wrapped.

Linda Carroll: [00:38:38] If somebody is trying to get you to love them. If that's what you have to do in a marriage, you try to get your partner to be kind or nice or appreciate you or treats you more than once every three months. I think you're probably with the wrong guy. This guy has some really big issues and let's go back to the great serenity prayer, which is you cannot change any other, you can't change anyone but yourself.

[00:39:06] I suggest that she'd give up the case and just live her life and he comes around or he doesn't. But what she's doing isn't working. You can't get somebody to love you. You can't get somebody to pay it to be kind ,to pay attention, to want you. I don't know anybody that's ever been able to change another person in my whole life. So if I were giving her advice, which I guess I am, it would be to go about her life and start finding ways to fill herself and not try to make him something he's not. And what will happen is what will happen, but she can't make him love her. She can't make him turn into somebody else. So then you leave it with the gods. Maybe that's a wake up for him, maybe it isn't. But what she's doing is in some kind of a real sick game with him, I'm putting on tap shoes. Maybe you like tap, you don't like that. I'll do ballet. You don't like that. I'll do the tango. And he keeps saying, no, no, no, not good enough. So she tries something different. Stop the game, stop it, and then the chips will fall where they fall. That's what I think.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:40:15] Yeah. I mean, I tend to agree. There's a reason I gave you this question. I just thought she's doing everything that she can and quite above and beyond that. And it sounds like my gut said that he is trying to keep her down a peg because he's afraid that if he gives her the love that she wants, that she'll end up leaving him because I think that's his mindset.

Linda Carroll: [00:40:34] I don't necessarily agree because I think he sounds like a Mimi. It's like he may be afraid. That's one thing. If I give you myself and I'm out of your league, you might leave me. That may be a real fear. But the behavior is meanie behavior. To withdrawal love and to be holding back on acknowledging appreciation for your partner. That's something else. Intention doesn't make your behavior into meanie. Maybe he would be careful about how close he would get, but this is another level, and I just think he's an angry guy.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:41:09] But what do you think about the fact that he hasn't kissed her in three months? Is he finding love somewhere else?

Linda Carroll: [00:41:15] Yeah, he may be and he may be or they may be locked in a game and the more she tries to please, the harder she dances, the more he says it's not working dance harder. And so why is she with him and what is the other story under here? I don't know. But I think that whichever is she needs to take off the dancing shoes and go about her life and be yourself and stop trying to win him over. Because it's not only is it not working, but it's not good for her sense of self.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:41:48] All right, Jason. Next up.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:41:50] I've been dating a woman for a few months and we are in a close intimate relationship. I've had my reservations and us being an exclusive couple. The bombshell dropped when she told me that she doesn't believe in monogamous relationships and was dropping me clues to make sure I knew that. Yes, I had my suspicions and when I asked her why this came out all of a sudden it was because she broke up with someone else because of them being jealous. Had this non-monogamy come up in the beginning, the circumstances would have been totally different. Part of me is fine with an open relationship, but I know eventually the new toy is going to squeeze me out, like I did to the other guy, and it's going to be an endless cycle. I care for her deeply, but I don't think I can convince her that this cycle will just continue, nor do I want to be telling her that I'm the one true one. Change your beliefs for me and it's just going to end in a no win situation. Just in case this isn't enough. We've worked together in the same department just to throw another monkey wrench into an already precarious situation. I feel this is just going to end badly eventually, but we'd like to seek your advice on possible solutions in either direction of saving our relationship or how to end it. Thanks. Signed, What The F Have I Done?

Linda Carroll: [00:43:04] Oh my God. You guys, what do you think are thing?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:43:08] I think this is strange. Why is she telling him so late in the game? I don't get it. I think she's already done with them, maybe, and this is how she breaks up with them.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:43:17] This could be her end game.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:43:18] This is the end game like, oh, by the way, I don't believe in monogamy. Well, wait a minute. You believed in it for the first few months of our relationship. Oh, but now I want somebody else. Uh-oh, this is what happened last time. I think this is her end game. Yeah.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:43:31] I've known a lot of non-monogamous people in San Francisco when I used to live there and it was always front and center whenever they met. This was not something that she had to drop hints for. This was something that everybody said out of the gate. I am non-monogamous, so get used to it or get packing. And this scene seems like to me that she's definitely like pulling that card to say, “Eh, maybe I'm just not that into you.”

Linda Carroll: [00:43:57] I think it's pretty simple unless he's just another victim. But I think, he works with her. That's a mess. I think it's simple. She's not honest. She played with him and he feels it's going to end badly. Why isn't it ended? Why when somebody springs that on you after a few months he's only been dating or a few months, and they’re sexual and then he brings this up. Why is he even asking you? That's my question. What's his part of this? How did he get in it? He answers it. What the F have I done? So here's my question. Why isn't he undone it? You're not in a monogamous relation. You don't want to be monogamous, okay. You didn't tell me that. How can I trust you? Let's have a beer together once in a while. Good luck.

[00:44:46] But why is it so big? He doesn't explain. He doesn't talk about his feelings about her. He says I care for her deeply. I care for her deeply. But that's all he says. I don't think I can convince her that this cycle will just continue. He's right, he can't convince her. If she would do that to him, that says something about her character, and I think that it's only going to end badly if he doesn't end it now and say goodbye and go on his way. Keeps trying to make it different, it'll end badly. But if he gets out of it now he can move on with his life and not make a mess. But the longer and deeper he is in it, the more the resentment is going to go, the more she's going to act out. So I think it's a simple answer. Just do it. Have the little talk. Don't do it on texts. Don't do it on Facebook. Have a little talk. I'm not going to be able to trust you. This isn't working. Let's have a good work relationship. Good luck.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:45:43] All right, Jason. Next in line.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:45:45] My girlfriend and I are both mid to late 20s, and had been dating for almost four years now. Her parents are divorced and she has multiple siblings. One of her brothers suffers from high anxiety as well as depression. Although he did some therapy when growing up at 26 he no longer goes. The problem is he's had an increasing amount of negative spirals over the past six months. These episodes are typically triggered from negative romantic events like a breakup with a girlfriend or hard times in a relationship. When these things happen, the only person he turns to is his sister, aka my girlfriend. He texted her, calls her constantly during these times and says really negative things. Sometimes very dark, borderline suicidal. For example, I wouldn't mind if I died in a puddle of my own blood. I would call it that dark. Yes.

[00:46:32] When he finally snaps out of it. He says, of course, he wouldn't do anything like that. It's just how he feels in the moment. He's never done anything suicidal, but these comments are common in bed episodes. My girlfriend is in a tough spot and feels trapped. She wants to support him because she loves him and he’s family. She gets frustrated because of the repeated negativeness from him. Although she offers advice and tries to support him, he doesn't do anything to change and the process repeats. His parents brush off the seriousness of some of the things he says and she feels like the only one who's actually taking him seriously. Needless to say, we don't know what to do. She suggested to him lots of things that may help such as therapy, exercise, taking up a new hobby, et cetera. He never does anything suggested nor is he motivated to do so. I try and be supportive to her and the only thing that comes to my mind is therapy or the suicide hotline number when it's a bad episode. Do you have any recommendations that could help my girlfriend and her brother in this situation? Thanks, Feeling Trapped.

Linda Carroll: [00:47:31] Well, there's two questions here, and I think they need to be separated. Do you have any recommendations that could help my girlfriend? Question one. And that could help her brother. Question two. So they're not one being, they're not one question, that's part of the problem. The question that could help his girlfriend is that she really needs to look at why she's in this because she's not going to be able to help. She's got a symbiotic relationship with her brother where she has taught him that she is going to be available even though she can't help, and that he doesn't have to go anywhere else. What she suggests is, what he needs his therapy. He needs a psychiatrist if he's suicidal and he won't do it, and so she is compliant in that. She's saying, okay, you don't have to do it. I'll keep being the person that you can drain of my emotional resources and you don't have to do anything different.

[00:48:31] So she's got one problem, he's got another, and I think their relationship is symbiotic. So if I were going to do a magic wand, what I would do, and of course, it's much more complicated than this. If I was putting words in her mouth and she can't get her brother to change and I can't get her to change and he can't get her to change. So having said all that, that I would have her say to her brother, you know, I love you and care about you and this is really hard on me. It's not working. What I'm doing isn't helping, and I don't feel like you're getting anywhere with what is going on between us. I need you to take this to somebody who's a professional. This is out of my league. I'll go with you, and we'll see someone together. But it's not fair for you to put this on me and I'm not willing to take it all on. She's not going to keep him alive. We do not keep a suicidal person alive. I think that what they're in together is as much a part of the problem as his issues. He needs to get to somebody who can help him and as long as she says it's okay, you don't have to do that, I’ll be the person you can talk to. They're in something that's very unhealthy. My take. You guys?

Jason DeFillippo: [00:49:48] I completely agree, and this guy needs help. This guy really needs help. Those asides, you can always say the cry for help and things like that, but in the moment, he's in serious trouble and he needs help. As someone who has been in that position and has come back from that position, he needs help. That is without a doubt. And since she can't do it and she can't make him do it. I like the suggestion of getting them to go together. But I would say she needs to have professional intervention in that case, when he gets to those points because one time, he's going to do it and he might succeed, he might not, but I would call pet team on him, when he gets to that point.

Linda Carroll: [00:50:29] Yes, maybe he's going to do it. Or maybe they're in a dynamic together where that's kind of his calling card. A lot of people, especially people who are really narcissistic, often don't do it. That's the threat. One of the things she might say to them is, I need professional help because it's not working for me. Will you go with me? And somebody can help me help you because it's really affecting me. And I have, I mean, I suggested that to people. It's actually worked once in a while that the person will not get help for themselves. But if he really cares about her and he really is serious about this, that might be easier for him to go with her, so she can get some help. Or you should call the suicide hotline and ask them what to do and get professional advice about what to do about him.

[00:51:22] But one thing she's not going to do is save him and she's going to go down with it, you know? And so they're in a loop, they're in a loop together and she's being the savior, but it's not going to work. So she needs to let him know she wants a different job assignment, including helping her find someone. So I'm not suggesting she dumped him, and I suggest she call suicide hotline and get the good protocol for how to do it. But she can't carry all of this and have her life, and it becomes a game. It sort of becomes the calling card of the person, even if they're suicidal, even if it's a genuine thing. I'm going to go to you but I'm not going to let you ask anyone else for help. So she needs to bring in a bigger team.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:52:11] All right. Recommendation of the week. Jason, what do you got?

Jason DeFillippo: [00:52:15] The Americans has finally ended after seven seasons, and I've got to say, this was one of the best series in I think in history. This is up there with the Sopranos for me. It was one of those things where it's a slow burn and it ended absolutely perfectly. I thought it ended perfectly because you know after seven years you think about how's it going to be like what are the big reveals going to be in all that? And it was just emotional. I had a tissue, it was very dusty in the room, and I think it really ended well. So I'm a huge fan of this show, and if you haven't seen it, start at the beginning and check it out because it is so much fun.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:52:56] So I haven't seen the latest season and I've got to binge watch it because I love this show. I love the ‘80s references because it takes place in the ‘80s. It's about these Soviet spies that come to pretend they're Americans living in America. They have kids, the kids don't know. And what's really interesting is this guy who we interviewed on the last show, Jack Barsky, who was an actual Soviet, well KGB spy, who came to America to live as an American. He consulted for this show and he makes a cameo on this show because it's kind of a fictional account of what his job theoretically was going to be, which is pretty amazing.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:53:32] Yeah. I think that was the last episode of season five that he was in.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:53:35] Yeah, so oh, God, I can't wait to watch this. I love it. It reminds me of when I was a kid, everything. They have all this authentic ‘80s stuff, the references, the fashion, everything.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:53:46] The cars.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:53:47] The cars.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:53:47] I can't believe the cars that they have in this. I'm watching and I'm like, Oh my God, we had a K car when I was a kid, and I see it in the show and I'm like, wow, that brings me back.

So much fun.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:53:55] Those giants deal with boats. That had huge, I mean, you could fricking live in that thing and many people did. Well, hope you all enjoyed that. I want to thank everyone that wrote him this week. Don't forget, you can email us friday@jordanharbinger.com. That'll get your questions answered on the air. Well, in theory. We're happy to keep you anonymous, of course. A link to the show notes for this episode can be found at jordanharbinger.com.

[00:54:18.7] We've got our Alexa Skill. It gives you a little clip from the show, a little useful tidbit and your daily briefing. You can get that for your Amazon Echo. If you go to jordanharbinger.com/alexa, and it'll install right there, you can install it from the app as well on your phone. Thanks to Linda for all of her help on this episode of the show. We are going to have her back. We always do. She's a regular on the show, so if you have something for her, you can try to get it to her, but she is in demand. I will say that.

[00:54:46] Quick shout outs to John in Ellicott City, Maryland. He has to burn the show to DVD reconvert the MP3 files because he works in a secure facility where there's no Internet. That's commitment man. He got to burn the show to DVD and re-encode the show files. He's like, I'm a few weeks behind because I'm like, wow. Yeah, I don't blame you. And I want to thank everyone else. They came over from my appearance on Impact Theory with my friend, one of the best hosts in the business, Tom Bilyeu. If you're not a fan of Impact Theory, you're missing out. Go check him out on YouTube or your favorite podcast player. I'm an Instagram and Twitter @jordanharbinger. It's a great way to engage with the show. And Jason, where are you?

Jason DeFillippo: [00:55:21] I am on Instagram @jpd. Twitter is JPDEF, and you can check out my other podcasts, Grumpy Old Geeks. All the links for that will be linked up at jpd.me.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:55:30] All right, keep sending in those questions friday@jordanharbinger.com. Share the show with those you love and even those you don't. We've got a lot more like this in the pipeline. We're excited to bring it to you and in the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time.

[00:55:47] Hey all, I'm excited to tell you about this show called This Sounds Serious. It's a new Castbox creation. You know, I'm friends with all that crew over there at Castbox, which by the way is the best podcast app for Android that I've seen, and one of the best for iOS. Totally different, if you're using the podcast app for your phone, like come on, get Castbox. What's wrong with you? Anyway, this sounds serious. Is a fictional murder story that involves twins called Florida weatherman. If you're a fan of true crime and comedy, you'll love this show. It's really a nice, funny, silly, stupid, funny, but funny nonetheless blend of true crime. So if you like true crime, but you kind of want something scripted and funny. By the way, Jason, their one star review for this sounds serious, says not scripted. It's like, “Dude, are you kidding?” It's the most ridiculous thing ever. If you didn't know --

Jason DeFillippo: [00:56:36] Derp.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:56:37] Derp is right. Anyway, This Sounds Serious, is out now. You can listen to it on Castbox or wherever you get your podcasts. If you're too stubborn to go and get Cashbox.