54: Barry Katz | How to Make Your Mark in the Funny Business

Transcript for Barry Katz | How to Make Your Mark in the Funny Business (Episode 54)

Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with my producer, Jason DeFillippo. On this episode, we'll be talking with my friend, Barry Katz. This guy is, he is a trip. There's really no getting around it. If you asked the average person on the street who's had the widest reach in comedy over the last 30 years, surely you're going to get many different answers. Dave Chappelle, Bill Burr, Louis C.K., Dane Cook, Whitney Cummings, okay. No one's saying Dane Cook. They've all had career moments though, that set new standards in the business, but instead of looking at any one of them, let's say you individually, how about instead looking to a person who has had significant influence on all of them and many, many more. That person is Barry Katz. He discovered Dave Chappelle as a teenager, just kept picking up the next big thing over and over again for years, including the names I mentioned earlier as well as Tracy Morgan, Jay Mohr, Darrell Hammond, Wanda Sykes, and many, many more.

[00:00:52] Today, we'll discover what it takes to be one of the best talent evaluators in America and how we can begin to hone the subset of skills we need to find the best in other people and ourselves. Of course, we'll also uncover why most people, even high achievers overcomplicate winning and how we can simplify our mindset while ensuring we're doing the right type of work to master our craft. And we'll explore some of the lessons Barry has learned from his clients and how we can apply these lessons in comedy and high profile careers to our own lives. Don't forget, we have a worksheet for today's episode so you can make sure you solidify your understanding of the key takeaways here from Barry Katz. The fee, as always for this show is that you share it with friends when you find something useful, which should be in every episode. And the worksheets, that's how we make sure that you find something useful in every episode.

[00:01:39] The link to those is in the show notes at jordanharbinger.com/podcast. All right, here's Barry Katz. So I was trying to research you, which is kind of, it's easy, but it's hard because there's so much information out there that you end up getting lost in some of it. And a friend of mine who is at comedy world to Jason, he worked on a sitcom with a Steve Byrne called Sullivan & Son.

Barry Katz: [00:02:05] Of course, Steve just called me yesterday.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:02:07] Oh yeah, yeah. Are you still working with him?

Barry Katz: [00:02:09] I'm not working with him, but I did a podcast with them, a very friendly and he actually is producing a movie called Me About It. Because obviously worked on a lot of movies and he's a great guy. I just did his podcast, without him actually.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:02:26] He wasn't even there?

Barry Katz: [00:02:27] The Gentleman's Dojo. He wasn't there. We were supposed to call him from Vegas, but we all know what happens in Vegas.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:02:33] Yeah. So he overslept. Is that the story?

Barry Katz: [00:02:36] In quotation.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:02:37] Yeah, air quotes overslept. So I call my friend Caleb and he says, all right, well what you have to know is Barry's one of the best talent evaluators in America. And I said, great. All right, well I won't be self-conscious about that at all. But you started off as a standup yourself as a talent yourself. But why did you go into management? I mean, when you think about standup, it seems terrifying. It seems really hard, but I'm not sure that managing talent is any easier than just being funny yourself.

Barry Katz: [00:03:07] I think that if you have in your mind that something's terrifying, then it's going to be terrifying. If you have in your mind that it's going to be incredible and extraordinary, it's going to be incredible and extraordinary. It's just how you approach everything. So I think that I love standup and I love doing it, and I was able to go on stage and get laughs. I never had a problem with that. What bothered me was standup, it's almost like you’re a surfer, and the audience are the ocean and the waves. There's no two waves that are the same and there’s no two audiences that are the same. It's amazing.

[00:03:53] So what would happen is I would go on and I’d kill. And I’d be like, “Wow, this is amazing!” And then the next night you’d go on and you do very good, but then there’d be certain jokes that they didn’t get. And the next night you kill again. And the next night, it would be just okay. And the next night you’d bomb and there’d be crickets and tumbleweeds flying around. You’d be like, “What happened? I’m doing the same thing!” And psychologically, I didn’t like that. I didn’t like the fact that I felt like I didn’t have as much control over the art form as I wanted to have because it was me and one mic working with a group of people that could be 50, it could be 100, it could be 1,000, and to me that was psychologically difficult to handle. And I thought that myself, when I book a show, you know, when I asked comedians to go on the show with me and I book them and I don't work, I feel better.

[00:05:02] I feel better when I'm doing things for them. I feel better when I'm creating opportunities for them because then I control the variables, and they go in and they have to figure out how to win. I don't have to figure out how to win. I've done my job, I've gotten them where they need to go. I've created the opportunity and it's up to them to either take that opportunity and crack open the door and kick it in, or just gently knock on the door and say, “You know what? I'll come back tomorrow.” And so I think that's why I moved into the other side of the business and I lingered in it for a while. I hosted shows for a long time because I felt like if I got to host a show, then if things didn't go well in between the comedian, I could just bring them up and then just reset the next time and see if I could kill on that one.

[00:05:58] And so I turned out, I felt like I was a really good host in Boston where I was doing comedy and then in New York for a short time when I opened the club in New York. I can still remember myself, saying as I introduced Dave Chappelle. He's 18, he's 18 years old, everybody, Dave Chappelle, so.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:06:20] And just making everybody laugh even then. Yeah. So you must've discovered him as a teenager. I mean, well literally as 18 is a teenager, but I mean, even younger. I mean, when did he start comedy? Like 15 years old?

Barry Katz: [0o:06:32] I think he started when he was 15 or 14 in Washington, D.C., and your friend Caleb. That is very humbling what he said, and it's very emotional because I think everybody, as you grow in any business you're in you want to make your mark, you want to make an impact and you want to figure out how to do it, and that's why when I look at you and Jen, I'm just blown away, and that's why I spend time talking to you beforehand because you started at zero, zero, there were no listeners, there was nothing.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:07:11] There might not even be any now.

Barry Katz: [00:07:14] You put me on the show probably. But the thing is there was nothing. You started with nothing except a vision of what you wanted. And you know, millions and millions of people listened to you, and I know why because I listened to you. But I feel like when I started I wanted to be part of the group and then I realized that this was a group of misfits. Comedians are broken people. And I would say that if they're all sitting here collectively with me, I would never say anything that I wouldn't say in front of them. It's not a bad thing to have adversity and to have divorce or death or alcoholism or drug abuse or different things that you've gone through or failure. That breaks you. But when you're broken, you get to the next level.

[00:08:15] I look at what happened to you with your past show. Many people would've said, you know what? I'm out of here. I can't take this. It’s too stressful and maybe it is too stressful, but no one knows. No one knows in the audience what you're going through, where you and your wife are going through. You just say, you know what? I'm just going to keep going. I'm going to ride the wave on this next journey, and I'm going to be more successful than I was before. And you're going to be in a situation where you're going to laugh and you are actually going to send those people from that other show, fruit baskets thanking them that they did that to you, because now you're in a situation where you're happier, you're more fulfilled, you have more control, and you're not worried about anything else.

[00:09:10] So when your friend says that about me and being a talent evaluator, I didn't set out to be a talent evaluator. I wasn't in college in Boston University saying, “Hey, listen, can I get some courses on talent evaluation?” And I'd love to tell you that it's a skill that I went to school for and that I killed myself studying for. But what I found when I started getting into comedy, something started happening to me. And again, it's hard to quantify because if I tell you and your audience, you're going to think I'm crazy. But it was like this sixth sense, this almost psychic thing that was happening to me and I don't know why it was happening then. The first time it happened, I believe, and this was before I started managing, I was doing standup comedy in Boston, and I remember I was doing really well. And I was in an open mic night at the Charles Playhouse, a place called the Comedy Connection.

[00:10:20] God, I haven't talked about this in a long, long time. And I'm getting ready to go on and right there getting ready to go on, and I could feel a host about to introduced me and as a tap on my shoulder, I turn around like don't see anybody. I'm still focused, and it's another tap on my shoulder. I turned around, I looked down and there's a young kid, a teenager, looked like a South Park kid in real life. He was wearing a Hunter's hat, you know, the red plaid thing—

Jordan Harbinger: [00:10:56] With the ear covers.

Barry Katz: [00:10:57] With the ear covers down, a Hunter's jacket, [indiscernible] [00:11:01] black belts, hunter’s pants, Elmer Fudd boots. And he reaches over and he puts his little hand out and he says, “Hi. my name is Bobcat. I'm going on after you. Good luck, Barry.” And I'm like, “Uh-oh, okay, good luck, Bobcat.” And I went on and I had like one of the greatest sets I ever had in that place. I mean, I killed harder than I had in a long time and I went to the bar. This was a bar on the room in the back. And I pass him and I said, good luck Bobcat. And I'm thinking as I sit down, man, this fucking guy has no chance. He's never going to follow me.

[00:11:57] I mean, I feel so bad. I feel so bad. And I sit down and he gets on stage and the microphone was high, the host was tall, I was tall. And they introduced him and he runs up there in a frenetic pace and just pacing around. He's grabbing his pants leg with his like the fist and he's trying to hold himself from shaking and he's looking at the mic stand and it's right in front of him, the mic’s up and he's looking up at the mic and he's like um, and he brings them like that. My name is, and he scream and scream, “Ah!” And the crowd when fucking crazy. And he's like, “Ah, shut up. Shut the fuck up. I don't need you to, my name's Bobcat. I lost my job and I'll never forget this.” Like it was yesterday. I can't believe this is channeling through me now. I lost my job. I mean, I didn't really lose my job. It's just when I go there, there's this new guy doing it. Crowd goes crazy.

[00:13:12] I'm watching white people, bob up and down, like it's def jam. It's incredible. I've never seen a crowd do that. And he's going through his whole routine and in this character, the character of a person that I did not meet, I met this sweet young kid. He's killing and then he ends his, and I never forget this. It's like, he's “Um, I lost my girlfriend. Um, I didn't really lose my girlfriend. Um, it's just when I go there, there's this new guy doing it. Um, I'm looking for roommates. Good night.” Runs off stage, like half of the crowd standing ovation. White comedians in comedy clubs that do showcases do not get standing ovations.

[ 00:14:09] And I saw this kid and I said to myself and him, I said, you're going to be a huge star, man. I didn't even know what a huge star was probably at that time. I'm at an open mic night in Boston, but I loved the one he did and I love there was something about him, but I was a naive kid. And I said, listen, where that true? You're looking for roommates? He says, yeah, I don't have a place to stay. I said, well, I'm an RA at Boston University, and I can have you stay there. I'll clear out the broom closet. And there was a big closet there. I clear it out, I have an extra bed, you can stay there, and I'll get you a meal pass them. And he stayed there and he stayed there all semester long and we did shows together and that was the first instinct that I had that something's going to happen. And at 19 years old, he did Letterman, he did Letterman at 19, and he killed on Letterman. I'll never forget, he went to the cow witch and he had these drawings, that were drawing like a five year old kid and he's on the couch for Letterman. Letterman’s like, “Hey Bob. What's new in your life?” “Dave, I did these drawings before I came here, I wanted to show you my artwork. This is my house and it be a picture of a house, picture like a five year old drawing. Um, this is my dog here in front of the house. And there was a picture of the dog and then there was the picture of the house and then there was just red, like all draw them from the third picture. And um, this is a picture of my dog after I hit him with the a lawnmower.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:16:13] Oh no. Oh my God.

Barry Katz: [00:16:15] And then he said, Dave, you think we could go bowling? And they was like, yeah, Bob, we'll go bowling. We'll be right back after these messages.

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Jason DeFillippo: [00:17:57] Jordan, was that skillshare.com/jordan?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:17:59] Indeed it was.

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Barry Katz: [00:19:44] In Boston. When I decided I want to manage, there was an 18 year old kid that I loved and adored. And he was brilliant and I knew I wanted to represent him right away. I knew he was going to be huge and that was Louis C.K., and so Louis was the kind of guy you ever see that photo of Steve Jobs. And I think there's one in the Bel Air hotel here, a huge one, where he's just sitting Indian style with the first computer, that square beige thing. Louis had one of those. Louis was always working, always writing, always performing. And I loved him and I always thought like he could do great things and he was so good to me. And I'll never forget when Jerry Seinfeld was coming into town. He was going to do a tour of 10 venues, and I called Jerry because I knew Jerry from going to New York.

[00:20:48] And I told them I wanted to submit this kid that we'd really, really like. And I also called George Shapiro, his manager, and I send the video tape back then it was videotaped to each one of them.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:21:01] FedExing a VHS tape or something.

Barry Katz: [00:21:03] Yes. And Jerry loved it and he hired him for 10 concerts across new England and Louis was like 18, opening a forum. And that's the next thing where you know you're doing something, you identify somebody and then somebody who's the top comedian in the world says, you know, I can pick anybody to open up for me, but I want that guy. And that's the next validation where you know, so for your audience and anything you do, your hope is you pray that you can do something once, and then you pray that you can recreate it. And then if you can recreate it again and again and again, first time you do it, anyone can do that. Second time, well that's a fluke. Third time he's lucky.

[00:22:05] But for me, I've been fortunate where I've identified probably 15 artists that have done really great stuff and some I don't even manage. I remember last comic standing, I saw a tape of Josh Blue, a comedian with cerebral palsy and I was just blown away because I used to work with disabled kids and adults.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:22:35] Yeah, I heard that.

Barry Katz: [0:22:36] And I went to the first meeting at last comic standing, I'll never forget, and I wasn't really well loved there because I was on the side of the comedians. I had the sign of 67 page contract that I wouldn't do anything wrong and I just be, but I was an executive producer with Jay Mohr and Peter Wrangel who created Saved by the Bell, and we had a great run. And I remember getting the first meeting and I took the DVD, it was in a CD case.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:23:08] [indiscernible][00:23:08] case they call those. Yeah.

Barry Katz: [00:23:10] And I took it. I was at the end of the table right before the meeting started. They said, we're going to start the meeting now. And I took the DVD and I flinged it, and it was spinning around in the middle of the table and stop. I said, that's the guy who's going to win the show this year. That guy's going to win the show, no doubt about it. And they said, Barry, you don't have a vote. Okay. You don't have a vote. So you don't have to say he's going to win. And I said, I know I don't have a vote, but that guy's going to win. And he won. And so I've always had this thing from that moment with where Bob Goldthwait, and I've never identified that. And you should know for you, as an interviewer, I've never identified the first moment that had happened until now.

[00:23:58] I didn't know when it happened, but now I know that's when it happened. And then it just kept going and I can see anybody and it's almost crazy to think. But it's like the Dead Zone, the original movie with Christopher Walken. I can shake somebody's hand as a comedian and I can see the future. I can see what's going to happen. And I remember I was having lunch, I guess you'd call it lunch with real food daily with Chappelle and actually, his wife was there as well. And I sat down and I could tell the story from his perspective. He says, Barry, do you know what month it is? I said, the Black History month I don’t know.

[00:24:52] He said, no man, it's 25 years ago that you told me something in a comedy club when I met you the first time. He said, do you know what you said than me? I said, I remember it like it was yesterday. My comedy club manager, Jason Steinberg, saw you on a Monday night. You came up from DC, and he said, you should see this kid on Tuesday. And I came to see you and before the show I shook your hand. And I said, you're going to be one of the biggest stars in comedy. You're going to change the face of the way the world looks at comedy. You're going to have specials that are going to win awards. You're going to create television shows that are going to break records, and no one's going to be able to stop you. You're just going to be so huge.

[00:25:43] You're going to be doing, show us for audiences that you can't believe how many people are coming. Multiple shows. And I finished saying that at the table and you know when somebody slaps a table and there's dishes on and then the dishes and things shake, and people are looking around and he gets kind of like, I don't know where he gets kind of like anger, not angry, but just fired up.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:26:07] Fired up.

Barry Katz: [00:26:07] And he's like, that's right Barry. That's right. And it haunts me. It haunts me every fucking day. I'm like Dave, just sitting down here. It's okay. He's like, and then he got into Solomon Bay, but he was like, I'm sorry man. It's just every time I think about that moment, I say to myself, how the fuck did he know? And so that's sums it all up.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:26:37] He must've been pretty surprised. I could see why that would have haunted him because it's like even he didn't know. And that's kind of what you had said in an article that I'd read while I was looking at, or actually let me retake that because I don't know where I saw this somewhere. You'd said being a manager is about being a dream maker. You make a list, we'll tick off the boxes if I don't get it done, fire my ass is what you'd said. And that's a lot of pressure for you. But it sounds like, you know who's going to be a talent beforehand. Of course, some of this, if you ever been wrong and thought this person's going to be great and then fail because you've got to love string of wins behind you. Louis C.K., who by the way, I heard lent your car to Sarah Silverman who then lost it.

Barry Katz: [00:27:22] That's right. My first car was a 67 Camaro and I was going away and I lent them the car in New York, and Sarah, another person who I didn't manage. But I can't even tell you the list of people that I identified that were extraordinary. Sarah, I mean, she used to come out to LA and stay in an apartment that Jay Mohr and I had. We, I mean, Sarah to this day is such an incredible artist, and what's odd is I think people talk about how beautiful and glamorous she is, and she's always been beautiful and glamorous even when she was wearing jeans and a t-shirt and Converse All Stars and every comedian in New York was in love with Sarah Silverman. And what's odd is that, and I'm not just saying this, it's like I guess back then I really didn't understand the dynamics between men and women.

[00:28:23] I was like a really, I guess I was just a slow person, but I never really looked at it that way. I never looked at her that way. Like they did. I just looked at her like, God, she's so funny. She's got such an original take. So I think that he really was enamored with her and let her borrow the car and then it got tow and he was afraid to tell me he got towed. And then like a month later I asked, “Can I have my car back?” And [indiscernible] [00:28:49], I'll don’t know how to tell you this Barry, but the car got towed. I'm like, okay, well Louis, that's okay. Just tell me where it is and I'll go get it. I tried to go get it Barry. Like why, where is it? After 30 days, they sell it, they sold your car fairly.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:29:10] They auction off your car.

Barry Katz: [00:29:12] They auction off my car, that I paid $200 for when I was probably 16 years old.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:29:19] So I take it at some point you've got to like a little note that says ask Louis C.K. for a new car.

Barry Katz: [00:29:26] I never asked him for a new car. I never got upset about material possessions. My mother always told me that, don't worry about material possessions, they're all replaceable. Just worry about your relationships with people and how much you can garner from a symbiotic relationship with human beings until they're not around anymore. And you never know how long somebody is going to be around because my mom had double tragedies where she was married and her first husband died at 30, and my father died at 37 when I was four. And so that was what I grew up with and that was my adversities, seeing her sadness, because I look at you and your wife and the way she talked about the men in her life, and especially my father was all about love and that he was taken too early, and she didn't want anybody else.

[00:30:33] She just wants that memory, and then that end. So when I actually not to bring the podcast down.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:30:40] No, it's okay.

Barry Katz: [00:30:41] But I got married in Boston when I was in Boston to a girl when I was 26, and she passed away eight months later. And so she was 23.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:30:55] How? How just a car accident or something like that?

Barry Katz: [00:30:57] She became anorexic and she couldn't fight it anymore and she got down to like 85 or 90 pounds, and we tried everything and she had a heart attack and she died. So it's odd, you know, life. My mom used to say, you make plans and God laughs. And so I was doing really well in Boston. We were working together a little bit, like you guys are and when that happened it sort of derailed me, and again, I really didn't know, you know, you think you have your whole life ahead of you and then it's gone.

[00:31:41] And then I didn't want to meet anybody else or go out with anybody else because I had the vision of my mom losing two partners. So I'm thinking, okay, if I meet somebody and go out with them, I'm going to, I'm going to kill that one.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:31:54] Oh God, that’s not a lot of negative pressure to put on anyway. Everybody I date ends up in some [indiscernible] [00:31:59].

Barry Katz: [00:32:01] But the way fate is, like you talked about, and again, you're a great interviewer, is that faith and your audience probably knows this more than anything. It takes you in ways you can't imagine. So that happened and it was a horrible tragedy, but I never would have gotten in my car and drove to New York and gotten an apartment in New York and wanted to start my life over. If that hadn't happened, I would've just been a local Boston guy trying to make it big and I never would have grown to the professionally and personally like I have.

[00:32:44] And so those things happen just like your past show. I know you can't compare with death, but it is a death of part of your show that you work so hard on and you gave your whole life to and then all of a sudden one day, guess what? That's gone. What do you mean it's gone? I've done 600 shows. What I mean is it's gone buddy. You don't own it anymore. Well, can I just go back and look at it? No. Well, can I just see where I use? No. Well, can I have the tape? No. Well, can I have the rev? No. You got to start over and that's what's happened to you, and that's what happens the most people. And if they look at it and they identify that, I always look at something bad happening as like something, I know it's odd to think, but it's something great happening.

[00:33:38] I always look at a no, as always a temporary yes. I've had so many professional and personal hits against me, but you just got to keep going. You just got to keep getting up. And that's all ways what I love doing. I only have one thing that I really honestly want. It's as corny as it sounds. I just want to be able to look at the ocean when I wake up. I don't care if I'm living in a tent on the ocean, a mansion on the Hill, a van down by the river, wherever it is. I just need to be able to see the ocean. And if I can't, I'm going to be miserable. I don't care what kind of car I have, I don't care what kind of place, I just want to be there cause it calms me, because I didn't get to see the ocean until I was a teenager. And so once I saw it, I always knew I wanted to be around it, so.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:34:39] Well, mission accomplished. This place is a pretty good place to view the ocean from with the vineyard over here. For anybody who's not in this room right now, which is everybody listening, you've got a pretty decent view here. The whole ocean, or the whole ocean view with the vineyard over there, and there making some wine outside. So if there's any noise, it's guys making or growing vines and managing all this stuff for you, which is pretty grand. You must walk around here on your property that you've just moved into what? 18 months ago, and think, okay, I've come a pretty long way from owning a club in Boston, managing people who lose your car. All the rejection that comes in show business though, you can't really escape. It seems like showbiz and comedy, whatever. It's an exercise and being told no, facing rejection. How do you, or what do you advise your clients about this because, or is rejection really a filter of who's going to eventually make it?

Barry Katz: [00:35:38] Rejection is normally about who's going to make it, but let's face it, there's rejection for people who never make it. I think it's about the psychology of going through it, and knowing that you can come out on the other side. I will share something with you that I probably don't want to share, but again, since you're emotionally sucking it out of me with your great style. I wake up every morning and I think to myself, it's over. It's all going to be over. If you don't get your shit together today, and if you don't do great things for the people and the projects you're working on, you might as well just pack it up, Barry, live in your car. And I know that's unrealistic and it's silly. And I would never recommend anybody do that. I think it will be a horrible thing for anybody to live their life that way.

[00:36:44] But for me, it's my way of artificially driving myself. It's not going to be over. I'm always going to be able to identify somebody who's going to do great things. I'm always going to be able to produce television shows, and I'm always going to be able to produce movies. I was fortunate enough just recently to produce a movie called Misery Loves Comedy with people like Amy Schumer and Tom Hanks and Jud Apatow and Larry David and Jimmy Fallon. And it's like, I know that things can always happen. I know that. With my podcast, it's the industry standard. It's again, you started nothing. Everybody tells you not to do it. Just like they told you not to work with your wife. And where told me, Barry, your manager, you don't do podcasts.

[00:37:51] I'm like, well, I mean, something happened that there's a lot of response. No Barry, just because you did Jay Mohr podcast, it was the number one podcast in the world that day and you did 10 other podcasts in the next 20 episodes and there were 5 million people that listen, that doesn't matter. Barry, you know where the bodies are buried. Don't do the podcast. I'm like, well let me talk to lawyers, don't talk to lawyers. I've talked to them. They'll still say the same thing. Agents, managers, nobody. Look at all the podcasts. You see a manager doing a podcast? No. Do you know why? Because managers don't do podcasts. I'm like, well why shouldn't I be able to do this? Why can't I do something that they said, number one, Barry, what happens if your show is more popular than your artists? And I said, well, I mean I would hope they would understand.

[00:38:48] I'm just doing something to help people. That's all I want to do. Because I get in these meetings with network presidents, you sit down with the president of Netflix, Ted Sarandos, then you go in your car and you actually sit there like you're on some kind of edible that went wrong and you're thinking to yourself, Oh my God, I can't believe I was the only one who was in that room to hear what he had to say. Wouldn't it be great if everybody could hear about the journeys of these people and how they made it and how they took the hits and where to go and their philosophy, how to go and do things. And that's the reason why I did it. And again, I didn't know it was going to be as successful as it was. I wanted it to be.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:39:43]This episode is sponsored in part by ZipRecruiter. You've heard me talk about them before. And that's because hiring is challenging. There is one place where you can go, we're hiring is simple, fast, and smart. A place where growing businesses connect to qualified candidates. That place is ziprecruiter.com/jordan. ZipRecruiter sends your job to over a hundred of the web's leading job boards, but of course they don't stop there, with their powerful matching technology, ZipRecruiter scans thousands of resumes to find people with the right experience and then it invites them to apply to your job and as the applications come in ZipRecruiter analyzes each one and spotlights the top candidates so you never miss a great match. ZipRecruiter's so effective that 80 percent of employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate through the site within the first day, which is pretty damn impressive.

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Jason DeFillippo: [00:40:46] Web address.

Jordan Harbinger: [o0:40:47] Web address.

Jason DeFillippo: [0:40:47] What is that?

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Jordan Harbinger: [0:41:04] That's right. This episode is also sponsored by SmartMouth. I know you thought I haven't heard about SmartMouth in a while. Well it's back. Bad breath is nasty. It's embarrassing. It’s a major problem both in the boardroom and the bedroom, and we have a my biz partner here who you'll be hearing from pretty soon on the show in another media. His name is Rob, and he is going to WWDC this week. And he's like “I need some mouthwash and I need mouthwash that it's going to last. I need to bring it with me.” And I said, “No, you don't need to bring it with you. You need SmartMouth because what SmartMouth does is it kills the bacteria, his ability to create sulfur gas, which is what causes bad breath for a full 12 hours per rinse. It comes in a two chamber bottle. One side contains a clear cell for eliminator. The other side contains a green zinc ion activator. In other words, it's got science in it. The eliminator, the activator, they're kept separate until you pour it, at which point the two liquids combined like Voltron and activate. People don't know who Voltron is. Now I feel old. The sulfur eliminator gets rid of existing bad breath and the activator releases billions of zinc ions which bind to germs and block their ability to consume protein or produce smelly sulfur gas. Like I said, for 12 hours, no sulfur gas, no bad breath. If you want to solve a real problem, you need real science, not a minty coverup. No one wants to be that guy with that breath, and now, you never will. Find SmartMouth at Walmart, Walgreens, CVS, Target, Amazon, or wherever you shop. So Amazon or visit us at smartmouth.com, and get an in depth analysis of how SmartMouth is able to deliver such an incredible result. I won't be there. You can visit them at smartmouth.com.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:42:34] Jason Sanderson was in town the other day and we did the feedback Friday together, and I just wanted to let you know I gave him five packs of SmartMouth travel to take with impact to the EU, so you can't steal them from me.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:42:47] Damn it. They're international or outside my jurisdiction.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:42:50] They are fam.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:42:51] Damn it. Oh you can go to smartmouth.com/jordan for a 2 dollar and 50 cent coupon as well. Smartmouth.com/jordan.

Barry Katz: [00:42:59] But to keep on the theme of what we're talking about, it's like for everybody out there, you just have to keep going. I always say that people a lot. I love my assistants and I love interns as well. It's an incredibly powerful thing because you're sitting with somebody who essentially is where you were, but yet I have all the knowledge and experience of what happens in the journey and they don't. And I love being in a position where I can help somebody get to the next level. Even its most simplest form. Like one of the things that I like to talk about with my interns and also with anybody is if anybody out there like it's is looking for a job, let's say, and then when they're out of a job and they're like, I don't know if I'm, or you're coming out of College Oak, can I get a job?

[00:43:58] Am I going to be able to get the job I want? Or you just got fired and it's like, oh am I going to be able to get a job? Whatever. How am I going to do it? I always tell them this technique, which I think I never had, but it can't fail unless you literally go in their office and you are the bathroom on the floor or whatever it is. So you think about our business and acting and standup or podcast or anybody out there doing anything, whether you want to be a 711 manager or a hotel receptionist or a whatever work on Wall Street. You want to get a job somewhere. You identify 20 companies that you feel you would love to work at. So as you're identifying them, you're thinking to yourself with almost like a true serum and your veins. Okay, if I have all the money in the world and I had the health of myself and my family, but I have to go to work for 50, 60 hours a week doing a career, what is it going to be? Not a charity thing with my money. My money is not there. I have it. I can use in any way I want, but not for this working position. What would you be doing? And most people know what they would want to do. And I tell them to identify that and go for that.

[00:45:34] Now a lot of times they think to themselves, well, you know, but I'm in this other job. But the fact is you can work on something while you're in another job, so I tell them to go. And then I tell them to compose a cover letter to those 20 companies and do the research on those 20 companies and in your cover letter, identify the things about the place. So in other words, let's say you want to be in film production and Lions Gate is one of the places. So when your letter you say, “Hey, I loved, 3:10 To Yuma or 3:10.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:46:07] Yeah, I know them, something like.

Barry Katz: [00:46:10] Whatever it is, I loved your leprechaun movies, whatever it is. I know that you might feel they were tacky or whatever, but I love them. Or I really enjoyed Monster's Ball and the company that I've identified that I think is extraordinary, and I really want to work with your company. And each letter you do a personal letter like that about that. And then you put your resume in and you make great letterhead with you. Something unique and original that you, that everything's on. And then you get three letters of recommendation from people that when somebody reads it, they want to cry. It's such a great letter of recommendation and there's three of them in there.

[00:46:51] And then you go down the FedEx and you take 20 envelopes from FedEx. I know it sounds like stealing. I'm sorry. I need to take the FedEx lips and you bring them home with you and you put these things inside all these FedExes. Well, I don't have the money for FedEx. Perfect. You take it, you fill out the FedEx things, you put them in, you bend up the envelope, you take some magic marker and some things, get your overalls on and a hat and take a drive at all these locations and go up to the front desk and say, Hi, I'm Joe, I work in sewage next door. This came by accident here. This is for Doug, Doug Herzog at your company here. It came to me by accident. Everybody opens a FedEx.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:47:45] That's a good point.

Barry Katz: [00:47:46] Because it's a 40 dollar message. No one's going to throw out a 40 dollar message. Everybody opens it and they read it. And so you got 20 of those out there, what are the chances you're going to go, O for 20 you could fail 90 percent of the time. You can fail 19 out of 20 you don't get a response on, but you're going to get a response on one and then you're going to go in the room and it's also about the preparation. Just like any career, just like when you do your so prepare and you have your iPad, you've got everything and you can just go in and do research on this guy. The company listened to podcasts with the person, listened to whatever it is. So when you go into the interview, you can even go on YouTube and find the greatest interviews in the world that people did that where they got hired.

[00:48:39] Just like if you're trying to get on SNL, if you're an actor, and I've had six clients on Saturday Night Live and somebody hosted twice, you have the evidence, you have Will Ferrell’s tests, you have Jim Breuer’s test, you have you know all these people's tests. You can study them frame by frame, and you can study the people that didn't get them and you can take anything to the next level. Everybody has that ability. We're not brain surgeons. If you're a brain surgeon, I have no advice for you. I have absolutely no advice for you because you cannot fail. You cannot make one mistake your entire career or your career is over. You don't even have a second chance, unless you want to work in Zimbabwe, you don't have anything. One mistake. We're lucky in this world that a lot of most professions we can make mistakes and come back.

[00:49:41] We can be fired from the job at the restaurant for touching some of these eggs and then we can go to the next restaurant and nobody knows about it and we can reset and start over. And so with talent management and production, I can do a television show that go is, or gets to the next level and gets on television. But then it gets canceled. “Oh crap, it got canceled.” Well then develop another one and get out there with another one and do it. All of that film didn't do that well. “Okay, well let's do another film.” Well, that podcast, the ratings on that one wasn't that great. Great. Let's do another one.

[00:50:28] And so that's the advantage that we have or any of your listeners have when they think like, oh, what's going to happen? I have to share this one story with you. It's really odd, but it's fascinating.

Speaker 6: 00:50:45 Correct.

[00:50:47] I met this woman and I didn't know what she did. I just met her and there was something about, or there was like a darkness about her. And I met her sister and there was a light about her sister. And I came to find out through talking to the person that had a little bit of a darkness. And when I say darkness, you know that thing that you just feel like there's people who walk in the room and you go, and then there's people that walk in the room and the hair on the back of your neck stands up. And then there's some people who they walk in the room and they make their mark in the room, but you can tell they're going through some stuff. So you're not feeling like the hair on the back of your neck. And that was what this person was like. And so I asked her, what she did for a living when her sister wasn't around? She said, I'm a dancer. I said, you're a dancer.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:51:53] Okay, euphemism for?

Barry Katz: [00:51:55] Yeah. I said, what do you mean you're, you're a stripper. She said, yes, I've been doing for eight years. I said, wow. You make a lot of money doing that. She says, I have made a lot of money. I said, oh, where do you live? She said, I live with my mom. I said, you live with your mom? Yeah, I drove her car here today. I said, What about your sister? She's incredibly wealthy. She owns two houses. She's amazing. I said, what does she do? She said, she's a stripper too. We both do the same thing, we’re both doing the same thing for eight years at the same place.

[00:52:45] I said, well, why is she out two houses and all this money and you're living at your mom's house? She said, because I always thought that it was always going to be there. So I partied hard, I drank, I did drugs, I bought things, clothes that I didn't need, and I threw my money away, and now eight years in I realized that I can’t do this anymore. I can't dance anymore. My sister realized eight years in that she can't dance anymore, but she didn't party. She didn't do drugs, she wasn't into alcohol, she wasn't sleeping with guys. She wasn't spending money on stupid things. She was saving.

[00:53:33] And so even though the profession, people might roll their eyes, it's really a metaphor for life in every profession. You know people, we all know people in the podcast world who don't prepare and slowly their show is go down. We know comedians who are great comedians but are hiding a drug addiction, and one day we get the news that they've died, and other people that they were with are thriving and going forward. We know great comedians or great musical artists that are doing great things and we know others that are struggling. And if you can just stay to where you don't lose focus and you can stay where you don't go in that path, that takes hours away from your focus, you're going to be in great shape no matter what you do and that's what your audience should know.

[00:54:38] Or there's, in my world in comedy, there's guys at the clubs that they get to the club and their sole purpose is to fuck a girl by the end of the night who's come to a show. There's a whole group of them. That's all they do. They get there early and they fight and battle until they can take a girl home, and then it starts over the next day. That takes hours and hours to do at the clubs just like old school. That's why it'd be NBA and sports franchises love dating apps. They love dating apps. Now they're so thrilled with them because the guy just texted a girl and she comes over. Guys aren't out to little clubs till four in the morning, partying, trying to find the girl. But in the comedy world that's what a lot of places, that's what it's about. A lot of people complicate winning, not just in comedy in our world, but in many other situations.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:55:43] So I know that you've seen a lot of talented people and a lot of people that work really hard. There's a story that I think I might've heard on your show about Jordan Peele getting rejected from Saturday Night Live because he couldn't get out of his last few episodes of Mad TV. And then like Bobby Lee saw him walking with a backpack one day and he goes, what are you doing? And he goes, I'm walking from the bus stop because he didn't have a car. And this is a guy who was just like a work machine. How much does talent matter versus hard work? Because it seems like in this industry or in any showbiz industry, you have to have talent, but you also have to have hard work. But you kind of have this cliché of talented people blowing it, and hardworking people have all these sort of sob stories about never making it. But how far can talent take you without the work? Obviously, some people ride talent for a while, but what's the reality really look like?

Barry Katz: [00:56:39] Look, I again, I always like to say things that I could say if they were sitting in the room, and for everybody in every profession, but we're just talking about standup or sketch or comedy. There's normally a graph, and if you took every artist out there who's in comedy and you did a graph, and on one side was zero, they don't put any effort in at all. But these are the people that have, we all know this is from Jim Jeffries used to Chappelle to Jim Gaff again to Kevin James, Ray Romano. This is all. And then on the other side of the graph is that's the person that works the hardest of anybody in the world of comedy.

[00:57:28] And then you have another graph, which is where if you polled all the comedians in the world and everybody in comedy who was household names, you pulled them all, and zero was the people that that poll that was not known, that a hidden pole that's in a box and nobody knows. Who would they say had zero talent and who would they say has the most talent of anybody? And even though it was those two graphs, so in my mind there's always going to be somebody like that. When I was swimming at Boston University, there was a kid I was killing myself in two times a day, 4:30 in the morning, 4:30 in the afternoon just to be a guy who could win a race or come in second every once in a while, be on a relay. This guy flopped around in the water all day long, won every race, every race. And until the championships where he got touched out, which is a metaphor for the way the world works.

[00:58:32] If we take somebody like Chappelle, okay? If I sat here, with Chappelle. He would say that he's not getting up at six o'clock in the morning and until two o'clock in the morning working with notebooks and sitting down and how am I going to do this and what's this happen and writing in the sitcom script and the movie script and writing the book and doing the podcast, he's not doing that. The comedy channels through him. I went to see him at radio city, invited one of my sons and I had a radio city musical, one of God knows 20 shows, and we get there. He gets on stage and he says, I'm sorry everybody. I know you're expecting me to do the comedy that you want me to do. But last night, the stay in Charlottesville happened and I have to talk about this. And for 30 minutes, for 30 minutes, this guy who I met when he was 18 years old in the Boston comedy club, which is by the way is featured and Crashing with Pete Holmes and Judd Apatow. This guy did 30 minutes of original material off the top of his head on Charlottesville and people were losing their minds. He didn't work for like three months on that material. He just did it and it killed because he's a genius and he can do anything he wants. He can do anything you want and make it successful. He just chooses to do things the way he wants to do them. Does he work as hard as Whitney Cummings now? No. When he would say that Whitney Cummings is one of the hardest workers in the world. And when I was representing her, I think she had three show was, I know she had three shows that she sold in one year that got on.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:00:48] Television shows?

Barry Katz: [1:00:49] Two Broke Girls, which she create with Michael Patrick King, the show Whitney, which she created on her own and Love You, Mean It, that was on E!, which he created and work with Chelsea Handler. This is the kind of person who takes a shower and probably puts her phone in a ZipLoc bag. I never saw anybody so dedicated to doing things and there were a lot of years where she didn't get where she wanted to go. But she got there quicker than most people have ever gotten there. And so the question is then after you take the hits and the show gets canceled, the other show gets canceled, Two Broke Girls goes, your creator, you make millions of dollars, but you face is unknown of.

[01:01:41] The question is, can you come back? Can you keep going? When Chappelle had that fall out, when he went to Africa or wherever you went. Can you come back? The key is can you come back? And that dictates the talent. I find that hard work isn't always the indicator of whether you're going to make it bigger or not, because we've all known people who don't operate that way. Their work ethics are different, but if you have the talent, then you're in a situation where you can make it without killing yourself. I just interviewed Tony Rock for my podcast. This guy got an apartment, the crappy apartment on Pico, no car, every night walk to the Laugh Factory and sat there for six hours and studied standup comedians and hoped if he showed his face, somebody canceled, he’d get on. Just always doing that. You can point the people in New York at the comedy cellar, they're there every night.

[01:02:49]You look at somebody like Ray Romano, Ray Romano, one of the most successful shows in the history of the world. Everybody loves Raymond. The guy made 40 dollar million his last year. Okay, his last year he made 40 million. He doesn't have to do anything, but no, he wants to make his mark. He wants to know that he's not just known as, oh, [indiscernible] [1:03:16] everything is going wrong. He wants to know that people can look at him and he wants to make a difference in the world. He will never say, I went up to him, I saw him at Phil Rosenthal's house who created Everybody Loves Raymond, filled as a movie nights. It's amazing. And he's a great artist too. And if you ever get a chance to check out Hammer's podcast or show just an incredible guy, but you go up to Ray and you say, God man, I love you in Vinyl. It was okay. I was okay.

[01:03:50] Ray, I saw The Big Sick, you work incredible. And you know, I've just, I'm just trying to do what I can to, you know, I'm not trying to be okay, but you can see where he's really doing things. He's not just sitting back and saying whatever. David Copperfield, who I interview, the guy's 60 years old, he owns a 11 islands. He's the fifth wealthiest entertainer in the world behind George Lucas, Steven Spielberg, Oprah, and Michael Jordan. He does 638 show is a year.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:04:39] That's insane.

Barry Katz: [01:04:42] Okay. Why does he do that? Because he's hard worker and he's talented, and he wants to make his mark. There's no limit. There's no ceiling from anything like that. It's just that's the way it is and that's the way it'll always be. So I think the answer to your question is, are they related?

Of course, they're related in terms of success, but there's always going to be anomalies like Dave Chappelle, who do things their way, and that's the way they do it.

[01:05:18] I mean, Chris Rock, even Dave sitting here and that Chris work together, they have an amazing time together, but their work ethic is completely different. Chris will go on the road for like, I mean, he'll just be working stuff out. Tires, you don't see with Tambourine when he got his Netflix deal, you don't see the Netflix special coming right out. I got to get this one right out, so I can get the next amount of money. He just waits till he builds the set the way he wants it. And if you haven't seen Tambourine, you haven't seen comedy. I mean it's just groundbreaking and you can tell how much effort he put in it. And he's also a talented, and he's putting effort in.

[01:06:08] So you have to have the talent, you have to have the skillset to be able to do something. You're not going to look, and you're not going to go and somebody says, listen, I need you to be the head guy working at IT, at Paramount to put these things together. You're not going to be able to do that no matter how hard you work on that amount of time or whatever you do, you're not going to be able to do it, you're not going to make it. You have to study and put the work in. But on the other side of the coin, there are professions where you can walk in and if somebody wants you to be a hotel manager and you've never been a hotel manager before, but if you have those personality skills and you know how to navigate with people, you can go in with no hard work or no training, but just be that kind of personality that can take it.

[01:07:04] So comedy is strange in that way. But I'll tell you this and this, the last thing I'll say about this topic with your audience. If you're a musician or a singer, you can get standing ovations anywhere in the world. And you may not make it because there's so many musical artists, but if you're a comedian and you're doing the kind of comedy that Jim Jeffries is doing, or Chappelle or Chris Rock and you're in a bathroom in Guam performing for six guys in a urinal, and that videotape comes out of that material, your common here, and you're going to do really, really well. I mean, just look at videos of comedians what does well. There's a reason why Jim Jefferies’ Gun Control bid has millions of views on YouTube. There's a reason why Bill Burr, what broke him was a bootleg film, the videotape of a Philadelphia show where everybody was getting booed off stage, including him.

[01:08:15] But he went right at them. He didn't give up. And it's amazing look at perseverance. Nobody knew who Bill Burr was. He wasn't making his mark. But then the world said, hey, you got to look at this, pass this on, pass this on. Your show, Jordan. I don't think I'm speaking out of turn. Your show isn't doing as well as it's doing just because you work hard or just because you have talent. Your show is doing well because you figured out a formula where people watch or they look at it or they hear it and they say, you know, you got to check out this Jordan Harbinger Show. You're married, your life partner is here right now because somebody passed it on to her.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:09:15] And that's true.

Barry Katz: [01:09:16] And so sometimes, you know let's face it, you can chalk it up the hard work or talent. But for you, I see slight similarities in myself in this way. And somebody told me this about myself. I love this analogy they taught and this the way you deliver the cadence of your voice, they said to me. They said, when I listened to your show, Barry, it's not about the words sometimes it's about what's in between the words, the pauses, the way you deliver the story or the word. And they talked about Japanese music and how you read the music from the space, not the lines. They talked about barcodes, how people know this, but a bar code isn't read by the lines. It's read by the spaces.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:10:13] I did not know that. But it makes sense because it reflects the laser.

Barry Katz: [01:10:17]Yes. And so that's what happens. And that's what happened with you. And that's what can happen with anybody listening. You and I sitting here, we're an example of two people who started with nothing in the podcast world, and all we wanted to do was make an impact. All we wanted to do was give people something that they couldn't get, where they were. All we wanted to do was help people not take the hits that we took and so they could get to the next level. And I'm so honored that I have the chance to sit here with you. I really truly am humbled that I get to be on your show. I’m getting kind of emotional about it, because it just to be here with you and to be here with your wife and the energy that you bring combined with the ocean.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:11:12] Yes, the ocean. We have the ocean.

Barry Katz: [01:11:14] You can't lose there. And I'm very grateful to you.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:11:18] Likewise. This has been wonderful, really. Thank you for your hospitality and for your generosity of spirit with all of these stories. There's so much more. We'll have to do another one at some point.

Barry Katz: [01:11:28]That would be a dream.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:11:31] It was a huge honor to go to Barry's house and do this show. So great big thank you to him for that. And a lot of wisdom shared in this. It's funny to see just how he's super kind, super good hearted guy, obviously pretty sharp, and just has this sixth sense. I know he said it and I hate not being able to deconstruct that further, but he really does have a sixth sense for what's going on, who's going to be the next big thing and part of that of course was managing that comedy club in the beginning.

[01:11:58] Seeing a lot of people who had quote unquote “The gift,” and those that didn't, and also finding people with the right work ethic. That was what really stuck out from me, was that the people who got it, they just work so hard. So again, great big thank you to Barry Katz. His podcast is called Industry Standard. Includes interviews with some really great folks like David Copperfield, Kevin Hart, Whitney Cummings, and a whole lot more. If you enjoyed this one, don't forget to thank Barry on Twitter. That'll be linked up in the show notes for this episode, which can be found at jordanharbinger.com/podcast. Tweet at me your number one takeaway here from Barry Katz. I’m @jordanharbinger on both Twitter and Instagram, and don't forget, if you want to learn how to apply everything you just heard from Barry today, make sure you go grab the worksheets. Also in the show notes at jordanharbinger.com/podcast.

[01:12:45] We've got our Alexa Skill. If you've got an Amazon Echo or an Echo Dots or you just like to mess around with those types of smart home things, we've got our Alexa Skill at jordanharbinger.com/alexa. It'll give you show clips and little highlights from podcasts of mine that you've either heard or maybe are about to hear, and it's a good refresher or a good sneak preview of something that you've yet to get. So I like that it shows up in the morning and the daily briefing. Jordanharbinger.com/alexa, we'll install it for you or you can go on your Amazon Echo app or Alexa app and install it by searching for my name, Jordan harbinger. That's how you do that apparently.

[01:13:20] This episode was produced and edited by Jason DeFillippo. Show notes are by Robert Fogarty. Booking back office and last minute miracles by Jen Harbinger. And I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. Throw us a nice iTunes review. Hey, we share those with the team. Throw a unique nickname in there. Throw something funny in there. Those are always entertaining. We have instructions on how to do that at jordanharbinger.com/subscribe. The whole team loves to see those, so if you don't mind. Don't forget to pay that fee and share the show with those you love and even those you don't. We've got lots more in the pipeline. We're excited to bring it to you. And in the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen and we'll see you next time.