1082: Food Packaging | Skeptical Sunday

1082: Food Packaging | Skeptical Sunday

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[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to Skeptical Sunday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. Today I am here with Skeptical Sunday co-host writer Jessica Wynn on the Jordan Harbinger Show. We decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, performers. On Sundays, though we do skeptical Sunday, where a rotating guest, co-host and I break down a topic you may have never thought about and debunk common misconceptions about that topic.

Topics like circumcisions, sovereign citizens, dietary supplements, banned foods, GMOs, toothpaste, crystal healing, targeted advertising, internet porn, and more. And if you're new to the show or you're looking for a handy way to tell your friends about the show. I suggest our episode starter packs. These are collections of our favorite episodes on persuasion, negotiation, psychology, disinformation, cyber warfare, crime, and cults and more.

That'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit Jordan harbinger.com/start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started today. From the original containers provided by nature to the use of complex materials and processes, food packaging has changed. You might have noticed that the perimeter of every grocery store, it offers fresh fruits, you got vegetables, you got meats.

While the rest of the market aisles contain shelves of foods that are separated from us by thin layer of packaging, regular consumers like us rarely think of packaging materials beyond which recycling container they eventually go into. But food packaging affects our diets and a whole lot more. So how do food packaging materials and design influence our eating habits, the environment shipping, and our growing population Today, writer Jessica Wynn is here to unwrap the truth about food packaging.

[00:01:50] Jessica Wynn: Thanks, Jordan. Do you know what the deal is with those tabs and lids that are impossible to pull off of? Everything from toothpaste to cream cheese to spaghetti sauce? I

[00:02:01] Jordan Harbinger: think they're so frustrating, actually. I mean it, look, if the thing comes off and it needs a little bit of force, fine. I understand the glues tight that day, but the worst is when you're pulling on it and the whole tab rips off, or a little tiny bit of the plastic sheet comes off, and then I'm stuck removing the rest manually, digging my thumb into the yogurt.

Or worse, I'm just stabbing at it repeatedly with a fork.

[00:02:23] Jessica Wynn: It's so gross. You get it on your fingers. It's just so frustrating. But it's wild to look at the evolution of food packaging and how it got to this point of getting into physical altercations with our containers. Like any good podcast though, we can start from the beginning and see how we got to this overpackaged world.

[00:02:43] Jordan Harbinger: Ah, that reminds me. How many podcasts does it take to change a light bulb? Oh

[00:02:48] Jessica Wynn: man,

[00:02:48] Jordan Harbinger: I don't know how many, it's gonna be a bad joke. Yeah, don't worry. Just one. But to fully understand the process, first we must look back to the 18 hundreds. Also, something, something by these pre-made prepackaged meal plants.

[00:03:00] Jessica Wynn: Wow. That's actually spot on. But we're gonna go further back. Like all the way back, there was a time when food was eaten, just where it was found. And nature provided the first food packaging with things like shells, gourds leaves, they were used like Tupperware. So over the centuries, humans got creative by hollowing logs, weaving grass, and using parts of animals they didn't eat.

Like animal fur was made into fabric. Then that fabric was used to wrap food and make bags probably for hiding from other hungry animals and humans.

[00:03:37] Jordan Harbinger: I, I think that makes sense, right? If you're gonna bury your food or you gotta hide it in a tree, I'd want it covered by something.

[00:03:43] Jessica Wynn: Oh my god. Yeah. Right. And as crafts got more sophisticated.

Then fabrics were turned into baskets. And by around like 8,000 BC humans were storing food for future meals.

[00:03:55] Jordan Harbinger: So they then maybe didn't have to hunt and gather food as much. You could do it all in one go. Kinda like we grocery shop. You don't do that every day. So then that must have given them some free time.

I personally can get lost wandering the supermarket aisle, so I can't imagine wandering the earth to eat every single time I was hungry.

[00:04:12] Jessica Wynn: Oh, I know it's starved, but it's all we would be doing. And so maybe it was like that free time that humans had that let them discover oars and compounds. 'cause by about 5,000 BC humans were using metals in a variety of ways, including pottery.

And this led to storing food in vessels like bowls, VAEs, pitchers, things like that. It's hard

[00:04:37] Jordan Harbinger: to imagine not having a water vessel of any kind. Imagine having to go to the source of water every time you're thirsty. That would drive me nuts.

[00:04:44] Jessica Wynn: Or to have a bag to carry around all the fruit you just picked around 180 paper was invented in China to record history, and then it morphed into wrapping foods.

So over the next thousand years or so, the techniques slowly spread around the world. It took a

[00:05:03] Jordan Harbinger: thousand years for everybody to get on board with paper. That's crazy.

[00:05:07] Jessica Wynn: I know it seems weird, but the first known use of paper packaging in Europe wasn't until 1300 and paper Packaging wasn't used here in the United States until the 18 hundreds,

[00:05:19] Jordan Harbinger: so the US had only been wrapping food and paper for, what was that, 130 years?

How were we ordering sandwiches and stuff? How did you transport any kind of meat to To give to somebody from a store? That's so weird. Yeah.

[00:05:31] Jessica Wynn: Eating on demand. I guess I don't pop it in your pocket. Maybe

[00:05:35] Jordan Harbinger: meat pocket.

[00:05:36] Jessica Wynn: It wasn't until the 1840s that paper bags were first manufactured in England and in 1852 the bag making machine was invented in the United States.

And then paper bags got really high tech in the 1870s when Glue was used to seal them.

[00:05:54] Jordan Harbinger: Very fancy. It's like the Pepperidge Farm goldfish bags. It amma, it actually amazes me that those things are still paper. Those like sleeves they use also, I love goldfish crackers always have, that's actually completely irrelevant to what we're talking about, but I, I thought I'd throw it out there.

[00:06:09] Jessica Wynn: Oh, they're delicious. But those bags, like that design, it's called the gusset design. And I'm personally against them. Not against the goldfish, of course, but the bags themselves, it's just bad packaging. It tears, easy things go stale. I have never opened a peppered farm bag successfully.

[00:06:29] Jordan Harbinger: That's ridiculous.

[00:06:30] Jessica Wynn: Stitched cloth pouch would make more sense and cloth bags were preferred until commercial cardboard boxes hit the scene in England in 1817. Before the cardboard boxes, it was wooden barrels and crates that were common packaging. In the Middle Ages. They were used for water, rum dried foods, traveling long distance.

And in Medieval Europe, food items were displayed and sold out of the barrels. So shoppers who bought in small quantities, they had to bring their homemade. Wicker baskets, bottles, pitchers or whatever when purchasing food in the marketplace.

[00:07:09] Jordan Harbinger: So bringing your own bags actually not a new thing. That's funny.

Sorry, I'm still stuck on the fact that you said you've never opened a Pepper Ridge farm bag successfully. Are you sure you're qualified to be a subject matter expert on this podcast? Sears? I think I've been opening those since kindergarten, probably with one hand. It's really not that hard, Jessica.

Really not.

[00:07:28] Jessica Wynn: Okay. I bet you spilled some though. I mean, like, look at you. I can open paper bags without machinery over there. But anyway, by 1900 shipping cartons made from paperboard, it's started to replace wooden crates and barrels because they were lighter and cheaper.

[00:07:47] Jordan Harbinger: There is one thing I'm talented in.

It's dumping goldfish crackers down my gullet, but yet the advancement in box technology, and I can't believe I'm saying box technology or that, it's fascinating, but it is fascinating. I. Remember when the Simpsons take a field trip to the box factory, Pepperidge Farm remembers,

[00:08:02] Jessica Wynn: oh no, you're just not gonna let that bag thing go

[00:08:05] Jordan Harbinger: slowly.

[00:08:06] Jessica Wynn: Moving on. The Kellogg brothers, they moved along the advancement when they created their health food cereal in 1863, and they put the cereal in a box, and then that box was put into a waxed bag, which was tied around the box, and the wax bag had the Kellogg brand name printed on it.

[00:08:28] Jordan Harbinger: By health food you mean anti masturbation supplement, because I think we've done a skeptical Sunday episode about this, or at least a podcast about this.

I'm not sure if it's out yet, but basically Serial was invented to stop people from rubbing one out.

[00:08:43] Jessica Wynn: Sure. Super cool story, but let's try to focus here. Jordan,

[00:08:48] Jordan Harbinger: I can focus. Thankfully, I've just had my corn flakes anyway. Why was this seemingly the opposite? And in your example, why was the box inside the bag back then instead of the other way around?

[00:08:59] Jessica Wynn: People were just figuring it out. It quickly changed to the packaging we know today. Of course, the bag on the inside of the printed box.

[00:09:07] Jordan Harbinger: What about glass? I feel like we skipped that. I know for a fact glass has been around for a super long time.

[00:09:13] Jessica Wynn: Oh yeah. And scholars think that glass was first used as food packaging in Egypt around 1500 bc.

The ingredients and mixing process for glass are actually still pretty much the same as thousands of years ago. It's just the molding techniques that have developed like exponentially. And the first of those was the blow pipe, which was invented around 300 BC by the Venetians, and it allowed for round containers, so that changed packaging a little bit.

So glass has always been colorful, clear, transparent, glass wasn't discovered until the first century. So what was in the package was now visible. And the faster these glass containers were made, the more they were used. By 1889, the automatic bottle making machine was invented, and today one of those machines produces 20,000 bottles a day.

The US makes like 27 and a half billion glass bottles for food packaging in a year. That's 75 million bottles a day.

[00:10:19] Jordan Harbinger: That's a lot of ketchup. It shattered my expectations of how much of that we actually produce. The only thing that I have bottled in glass, I think is this fancy pants yogurt that my kids love.

It's called We because it's very fancy, and so they put French in it. Oh yeah, that is fancy. It is. I'm like, what is this? $5 a bottle? I was so annoyed when my wife bought it and then I ate it and I was like, I get it. It's so good. It's so good. Oh my gosh. But I don't think I have anything else in glass. I really don't.

I think we have nothing else in glass.

[00:10:46] Jessica Wynn: It's kind of dangerous and how it shatters. That's why food didn't move around that much. And then metals were tried at gold and silver was too valuable for common use, but. Then people tried cheaper metals, but that freaked people out because they had a fear of getting poisoned.

[00:11:03] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I think that's warranted. I'm actually surprised metal lasted more than a minute as food packaging.

[00:11:08] Jessica Wynn: Yeah. You can thank Napoleon Metal cans were mostly used for tobacco historically, but in 1795, Napoleon contributed to the advancement of food packaging by offering 12,000 francs to anyone who could preserve food for his soldiers.

And voila, a French chef found that food sealed and tin containers and sterilized by boiling could be preserved for long periods. So sealed cylindrical cans were developed and metal packaging was now trusted.

[00:11:45] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, Meine, Napoleon, he really made a short work at the preservation problem. I. Oh God, anyone

[00:11:53] Jessica Wynn: punching down?

So tin was the first metal used for packing food, but its major disadvantage was and still is corrosion. That's why tin is coated with protective layers when used for packaging. And the metal containers that developed though they allowed printing the brand name on the package for the first time. Then a few decades later in 1825, aluminum was discovered, but it was expensive, like adjusting for inflation.

It came in at $545 per pound, but when they, I guess, figured out it was so available, the prices steadily declined and aluminum hit around $14 a pound in 1942. Then aluminum foil broke on the food packaging scene in the early 1950s, and the aluminum can made its debut in 1959. Actually, a fun aside was until 1866, a hammer and chisel was the only way to open a metal can because they were all soldered together.

Then a metal tear strip was added. It wasn't until a decade after that in 1875 that the can opener was invented.

[00:13:10] Jordan Harbinger: It seems like we're a little slow on the uptake. If cans were invented first and then the can opener took another decade before somebody finally invented it, 10 years, I feel like I'd open one can with a hammer and just be like, wait a minute.

There's definitely gotta be a better way to do things with this. This is like an infomercial. There's gotta be a better way. As I hammer my thumb off while trying to open some tuna, you could starve to death in a closet full of canned food if you weren't strong and had a hammer and a chisel nearby.

[00:13:38] Jessica Wynn: I know that's funny, but it's really sad actually.

Then we come to the material that we are almost familiar with today, plastic. So it was discovered in the 19th century, and most plastics in the beginning were reserved for military and wartime use. The first major impact plastic had in food packaging was when foam was created in the 1950s. This allowed for insulation and cushioning for shipping products safely.

[00:14:11] Jordan Harbinger: Everything is plastic. Now. We've actually done a lot of shows on this, and all of them worked depressing for the most part.

[00:14:16] Jessica Wynn: Totally agree. And there's so many different types of plastics you could probably do shows on, but during the Civil War, there was actually a shortage of ivory, and since pool balls were made from ivory bill, your ball manufacturer, they offered a $10,000 reward for an ivory substitute.

And it took a few years, but a New York engineer created a new plastic material called celluloid that was in 1870 and celluloid. It had to be carved and shaped just like ivory. Eventually celluloid was replaced with cellulose acetate, or we know it as cellophane, and that was manufactured by DuPont starting in 1924.

The commercial use of cellophane didn't really become a staple in food packaging until the fifties.

[00:15:03] Jordan Harbinger: It must've been tough to print on cellophane in the early days when I was a kid. I would always try to scratch letters off of things, just any packaging. And I remember like thinking that, actually, this is a really ridiculous comment, but let me just leave it at it must have been tough to print on cellophane in the early days.

How's that?

[00:15:18] Jessica Wynn: It's good. It's, I remember cellophane being hard to open like a CD you and scratch your peppered farm

[00:15:22] Jordan Harbinger: bag, so it doesn't surprise me if you can't open a paper bag. You couldn't open a cd. Have you tried a hammer and chisel Jessica, that might help you.

[00:15:31] Jessica Wynn: That's why CDs went out of fashion.

[00:15:33] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, smashed up all over the floor.

[00:15:36] Jessica Wynn: But labeling food, packaging with the company name and content information, that's a relatively new package. Back in the 1660s, the phrase, let the buyer beware, became popular because inferior quality products were sold to uninformed customers. So eating packaged food was a risk. Now, labels contain a great deal of information intended to protect and instruct the public, but even in the 18 hundreds, it was just some food in a container, and you might get pretty sick if it wasn't the right kind of container.

So reputable merchants who knew this, they began to mark their food packaging with their identification. Official trademarks were then pioneered in 1866 by the Smith Brothers for their cough drops that were marketed in large glass jars.

[00:16:28] Jordan Harbinger: Oh yeah, trademarks. Our big business. I used to love trademark law back in law school.

It sounds like the Smith Brothers cough drops idea was nothing to sneeze at.

[00:16:36] Jessica Wynn: It wasn't, and it was actually really huge idea. And then, I mean, the industrial Revolution had opened up trade and a need for better packaging. So they all had to be labeled and the packaging, it had to be durable and easy to produce.

Food preservation was also a top priority during this time because there was new transportation methods meant for food. And you know, the food was traveling further and more often in 1890. Biscuits were the first products that were individually packaged and sold by the National Biscuit Company known as Nabisco.

[00:17:13] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, Nabisco's Short for National Biscuit Company. Oh man, that's a childhood jingle that has stayed in my head for 40 years.

[00:17:21] Jessica Wynn: Memorable Nabis? Yeah. They made the first packaging to preserve crispness by individually wrapping the cookies and then putting them in the tin. So packaging was advancing for beverages too.

When the bottle cap was invented in 1892, food packaging also contributed to overall public health. In 1933, a new era of plastics began with the creation of Saran Wrap. This allowed for airtight food packaging, and then the tetrapack was invented in 1951. This paperboard based package, it revolutionized Europe's dairy industry because it could store liquids without refrigeration and the box shape, it was easy to stack and ship.

And then Coors pioneered the use of aluminum cans in 1959. And in 1963, the first ring pole for beer cans was introduced.

[00:18:17] Jordan Harbinger: This is probably a dumb question, but what did they use before the bottle cap? Because obviously you had the glass bottle with the liquid in it. It was sealed somehow. Do you know?

[00:18:25] Jessica Wynn: Yeah, everything was soldered.

Again, you'd probably have to just break the top of the glass or smash the top off.

[00:18:32] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, what That's so that's really something I would not wanna do with a bottle. I'm about to drink liquid out of.

[00:18:40] Jessica Wynn: I'm not sure when the, like, I think the screw top actually came after the actual one. You need an opener for today.

But it was a funny order in which we discovered the convenience of opening these containers we were making.

[00:18:53] Jordan Harbinger: So back in the ring pool days, I assume they were still airtight and they made that sound right. There are a few sounds more recognizable than opening a can

[00:19:03] Jessica Wynn: for sure. And the sound of opening a plastic bottle when you open a soda that arrived in 1973 when the first plastic bottles that contained carbonated drinks were invented.

This became the cheaper alternative to glass.

[00:19:20] Jordan Harbinger: So began the terror of plastic bottles.

[00:19:23] Jessica Wynn: Oh yeah. And the huge profits of the food packaging market design, production, and distribution of packaging materials was valued at 456 billion with a B in 2022.

[00:19:38] Jordan Harbinger: Man, that's a lot of boxes and cans.

[00:19:40] Jessica Wynn: It sure is. And it's projected to grow to over 700 billion by 2030.

[00:19:47] Jordan Harbinger: Gosh. So there must be some standards set for today's food packaging. I know you gotta have that nutrition label and that's gotta be mandatory. 'cause on imported food, they stick one on. So that I assume is a law.

[00:19:58] Jessica Wynn: Oh yeah, there's plenty of regulations and they put everything into three simple categories for the food packaging, primary, secondary, and tertiary.

And the difference between them is the layer of protection the product has while being transported from point A to point B. And all the materials used are evaluated. Glass, metal, plastic, cardboard, paper, cellophane.

[00:20:23] Jordan Harbinger: I kind of expected you to rail against plastic.

[00:20:26] Jessica Wynn: We could, but I think most people are already aware of how problematic plastic is in the world.

I think it's something like they say we consume a credit card's worth of plastic every week. Maybe we don't. But that plastic ends up in the oceans. And then the fish, I know you've done a ton of episodes on this, so basically without a corporate renaissance, plastic is here and there's a lot more to food packaging than just plastic.

[00:20:54] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, you're right. I've definitely talked about plastics extensively ad nauseum, really in other episodes to the point where it's, I'm still doing it, but yeah, it doesn't get any less depressing.

[00:21:04] Jessica Wynn: Yeah, I mean, we're just screaming into the void kind of. I hate plastic. I try to avoid it, but it's the most common packaging used in the food industry because of its physical and chemical makeup.

Plastic can be used with pretty much any food. Plus it's a low cost material. So until it's cheaper, more effective form of packaging is created. Plastic is here.

[00:21:28] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I hate how practical plastic is because the environmental problems that it causes. But yeah, the other alternatives, as we learned on the show, are worse,

[00:21:36] Jessica Wynn: right?

Like we said, glass is risky, it shatters, it leads to lost products, and it's heavy to transport. It requires a ton of heat to manufacture. So the carbon footprint of glass is actually really enormous. Plastic eliminates a lot of these business concerns.

[00:21:52] Jordan Harbinger: And it makes business sense. I know we've actually done a debunk of Bioplastics before on Skeptical Sunday, so those are kind of a bust.

It's basically just plastic made out of other things. Like we're gonna take something that wasn't originally gonna become plastic and turn it into plastic using twice the amount of energy. So metal's better for the environment in some ways, but again, carbon footprint. So should we be using that more?

Maybe

[00:22:17] Jessica Wynn: Metals are actually some of the best food packaging materials like tins started the trend of metal packaging, but aluminum is what drives it most in today's world, which the best thing about aluminum cans is they're easily recycled and it's best for transporting food items. It's the best at keeping out bugs, moisture, and air, and you can use it for wet and dry food.

Like I said, it's the most recyclable. But it's really expensive, so our food costs would skyrocket, and it has the need for productive layers to avoid corrosion and reaction to acidic foods, and that can cause foodborne illness. So plastic is also safer. Metal also takes a lot of carbon to extract, manufacture, transport, and plastic.

You can make clear or opaque metal's never transparent, so there's kind of no good option.

[00:23:12] Jordan Harbinger: To be fair though, sometimes it is less appetizing to see what's actually in the container. I'll take the picture on the label. Oh, my pasta's gonna look like that when I pour the sauce on there. Deceive me please.

[00:23:23] Jessica Wynn: Yeah, makes you feel like a better cook maybe. I dunno. It's definitely something that has to be considered when marketing in other countries. Legend has it that decades ago Gerber could not figure out why its sales were like zilch in the African market. And it turned out communities with the lowest sales, correlated with the lowest illiteracy rates because in those communities, people were relying on the picture of the label to know what it contains since they can't read.

[00:23:54] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, and Gerber's logo is the baby, right?

[00:23:57] Jessica Wynn: And no one wanted to give mashed baby a try.

[00:24:02] Jordan Harbinger: Oh my God. Even in the clear containers, it's just like this neutral colored mush that you can't really identify. Ooh.

[00:24:08] Jessica Wynn: But I don't know. I have to say mashed baby. It could be quite delicious depending on the flavor profile.

[00:24:14] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, that reminds me of this

[00:24:16] Jen Harbinger: baby. The other white meat. Oh,

[00:24:19] Jessica Wynn: no. Too far, Jordan. But the point is good packaging. It's so much more than just protecting food.

[00:24:29] Jordan Harbinger: Does the, uh, size of the package matter?

[00:24:32] Jessica Wynn: Oh, Jordan, of course. Size matters. Any other answers? Just trying not to make you feel insecure. And this is true in food packaging too, like optimizing package size in ensures less food and packaging waste.

And that can reduce transportation costs. So if restaurants and grocery stores can purchase smaller packages, they'll require fewer trucks and ships to transport their goods. That means fewer emissions, less congestion on the roads and waterways, and then we get food that's cheaper.

[00:25:06] Jordan Harbinger: You know what? You won't need a hammer and chisel to open up and enjoy the products and services that support this show.

We'll be right back.

This episode is sponsored in part by Better Help. You know, this month is all about gratitude and sure, we often thank family and friends and mentors, but we don't always stop and thank ourselves, and let's be real. Just navigating through life these days is kind of a lot. It's easy to forget we're all doing our best.

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[00:26:05] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by HIA Health. If you've ever taken a look at what's actually in most kids' vitamins, you'll notice they're basically candy in disguise.

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[00:27:14] Jordan Harbinger: If you're wondering how I manage to book all these great authors, thinkers, and creators every single week, it's because of my network, the circle of people I know, like and trust, and I'm teaching you how to build yours for free.

over@sixminutenetworking.com. This course, it's not cringey. It's very easy. It's down to earth. It's not gonna make you look or feel bad, or the people that you reach out to think that you're a big turd. It's just gonna make you a practical connector. A better colleague, a better friend, a better peer. Takes a few minutes a day.

That's it. And many of the guests on our show already subscribe and contribute to that course. So come join us. You'll be in smart company where you belong. You can find the course@sixminutenetworking.com. Now back to Skeptical Sunday. So the prices we pay at the grocery store are affected by the food packaging choices of a company.

And so, hey guys, smaller packages are better. You here it here first?

[00:28:02] Jessica Wynn: Oh yeah, sure. Yeah. The smaller is better, Jordan. Whatever you need to cope. But smaller is actually better for you. Like when it comes to packaging, think about it. An apple is healthier than the cookies that are in a plastic sleeve, in a tray, in a box.

There's no packaging, but the produce section is also regulated. Like those stickers on the fruit, they must be non-toxic and edible just in case somebody adjusts it.

[00:28:30] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, I've always been so careful to remove those thinking like, wow, this plastic sticker on the apple better not eat that. But now you're telling me all that was just a waste of effort and I could have been munching on those tasty tags this entire time.

I don't know how tasty they are. Well, yeah, probably not W what about what we print on our food packages? That's regulated too, right? You have to say certain things. You can't say other things.

[00:28:53] Jessica Wynn: Oh, totally. Every word is regulated and think about it. There's so much information about the food on any given package.

[00:29:00] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I don't know anybody that reads all the stuff on every package that strikes me as weird. I am more curious than I think a lot of people, and I barely get past the nutrition label most of the time.

[00:29:12] Jessica Wynn: Most people wouldn't understand all of it. If you did read the whole container, there's the nutrition label.

There's the serving size, the ingredients portions, the art, the font, the recycle signs, the weight, the expiration address of distribution. Most containers have websites. Now, many have QR codes. Then there's dietary certification symbols.

[00:29:34] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's a lot of info.

[00:29:36] Jessica Wynn: Yeah. For many consumers, food labels are a primary source of information about the foods they eat.

So it's important these labels are trustworthy and that companies are held accountable for the claims printed on their package. We're fortunate, right? We trust food packaging. We rarely face foodborne illness like those buyer beware days. But when President Zachary Taylor died in 1850, after consuming contaminated fruit and milk at a picnic, the demand for labels assuring the public they won't die from eating.

It was a top priority. And Taylor's cause of death actually led to the 1862 creation of the United States Department of Agriculture, the USDA, which got to work on strict guidelines for food processing and packaging, but it wouldn't be for 128 years till a recognizable nutritional fax panel was mandated on all food products.

But people just wanted a package to let them know it was safe.

[00:30:40] Jordan Harbinger: It's not like in the 18 hundreds people were running to seven 11 or whatever. From what you said, packaged food wasn't even available back then like it is today. I mean, you, we, we made the meat pocket joke earlier because they weren't even putting things in paper.

[00:30:54] Jessica Wynn: Yeah, of course not. But it, as consumers trust grew in packaged food, the amount of packaged foods increased. So until. The sixties, Americans prepared the majority of their meals at home, but then after kind of the revolution of plastic packaged foods were everywhere. So the USDA mandated that a list of ingredients be placed on all packaging.

And in 1990, the USDA mandated that all food companies were required to make consistent claims and include a detailed standardized nutrition fax panel on all food packages,

[00:31:33] Jordan Harbinger: not until 1990. Gosh, that sounds so recent. I mean, I know it's not, but I guess I'm old. But it seems like we would've had that for years before then, or years by then, but not really, eh,

[00:31:43] Jessica Wynn: yeah.

I know the nineties seems like it was 10 years ago. Always. But yeah, there were minimal label requirements in the forties. It just got more strict in 1990. So what is printed on food packaging? It had already been to the Supreme Court in 1973, and that led to requiring nutrition facts be printed if the packaging made any health claims.

[00:32:07] Jordan Harbinger: So it was only if you wrote low fat or low cholesterol or something like that, that the nutrition label had to be on the package at all.

[00:32:16] Jessica Wynn: Correct. And any food packaging that made claims about preventing or curing a specific disease, they're actually considered an illegal drug, so you couldn't solve them.

Ah,

[00:32:26] Jordan Harbinger: so that's why psychedelic mushrooms don't have good packaging.

[00:32:29] Jessica Wynn: What would that package look like? Ingredients. Mind ery.

[00:32:33] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. People don't read the labels anyway, do they? Like I said, I might look at calories and protein content because I'm in a meathead phase these days, but that's really it. Most of the time,

[00:32:42] Jessica Wynn: the fact we don't read the labels is proof of how much we trust the food packaging industry, the FDA and the federal government.

[00:32:51] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Maybe that's one way to look at it, I suppose. Remind me to say that next time I'm debating a libertarian, one of those hands off my ham guys.

[00:32:58] Jessica Wynn: Exactly. Labels. They're not always ignored. People still don't wanna get sick. But the point is, consumers were being fed information about what they were being fed, and it was a selling point.

Nutrition labels have are, and will be debated forever as we prove and disprove things about what we put in our bodies.

[00:33:21] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, the health claims on a lot of labels are absolutely infuriating, especially stuff that you can buy online.

[00:33:27] Jessica Wynn: Oh my gosh. I know. I couldn't agree more. Like food manufacturers were eager to respond to the customer interest, and so they used new undefined claims on food packaging, like extremely low in saturated fat in order just to catch consumer's attention.

So in 1984, when the good old Kellogg company began a labeling campaign using the back panel of a high fiber breakfast cereal to link fiber consumption to a possible reduction in the risk of certain cancers. Food packaging as a marketing tool was a bit out of control. There was just an absence of regulatory action.

[00:34:05] Jordan Harbinger: Does fiber reduce cancer risks? I feel like I've heard that before, but now I have no idea if it's true now that I hear it.

[00:34:11] Jessica Wynn: See, you don't even see the package and you're still drawn in.

[00:34:14] Jordan Harbinger: I'm here for the anti masturbatory claims that Kellogg's makes on the cereal, but I stay for the reduced risk of cancer.

[00:34:21] Jessica Wynn: Yeah, your pious diet, a variety of foods could lower risk of cancer, but it's more complicated than just eating a breakfast cereal, obviously. So packaging with those kinds of claims, it's irresponsible misinformation and food packaging was scrutinized by the FDA after this. And the words printed on packaging is like really closely monitored.

[00:34:46] Jordan Harbinger: And consumers responded positively to these changes. Or do we still not seem to care at all? It's

[00:34:52] Jessica Wynn: like any good market. The food packaging industry, it changes with consumer demand. And the surge in consumer interest in nutrition in the 20th century definitely fueled what the food packaging looks like.

And the packages that the labels were printed on, they also changed accordingly. So the consumer could be able to understand the labels on the package if they choose to read it.

[00:35:18] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, the bureaucracy of health and nutritional information, uh, well makes me hungry, but even the buzzwords on food packages.

Are regulated reminds me of when I was a kid and you would see something like Kool-Aid and it would be like vitamin C or Hawaiian Punch, remember that stuff? And it was just like red sugar water and it would be like now with vitamins and it's like what? Your mom read that it was convinced I'm seven and I'm not convinced that these vitamins are good, that this thing is good for you.

Or fruit rollups like real fruit. And it has smashed corn syrup with strawberry seed stuck into it, attached to a piece of plastic sheeting. I don't think anybody's really convinced by this. I don't know. I'm on a tangent now.

[00:35:58] Jessica Wynn: No, it's absolutely true. Food companies did whatever they could because. And that was just it.

They could put those words on there without any repercussions, whether they were true or not. So now every word's looked at, and the FDA, it tries to require food packaging. Now to clear up nutrition confusion, help consumers choose healthier diets and give food companies an incentive to improve the nutritional quality of their products.

The USDA and the FDA strongly believe that consumers need help to eat healthy.

[00:36:34] Jordan Harbinger: Well, I think they're onto something there, but I'm not sure that they've been super successful. Something, something Fattest Nation on Earth. And I had looked this up to make sure that claim would be accurate and it's not true actually.

Many of the islands in the South Pacific are fatter than the United States, so congratulations to Naru and company.

[00:36:53] Jessica Wynn: That's really surprising actually. But the information is there. But even if the strict rules on what the nutrition labels can print, don't stop the marketing value of what the rest of the package says.

So it's definitely a science like FDA research shows that graphic presentations like pie charts and bar graphs, they're not easy for consumers to comprehend. So percentages are found to be easiest for people to understand, which is why the nutrition label looks the way it does. The FDA worked with the graphic experts to design the nutrition label.

They took into account research on comprehension, legibility, and literacy. So everything written on the nutrition label is very deliberate. The calories and serving size you'll notice are printed in larger, bolder font because it's the easiest correlation for. You know, us dummies to understand,

[00:37:47] Jordan Harbinger: yeah, those labels do come across as official, but I don't know if I'm supposed to be a little offended.

Maybe I am, even if my aging eyes do appreciate the font boost with respect to the calorie count. Either way, it, I suppose it is a relief that we can more or less trust what it says on food packaging. Even if they try to get cute with serving size and stuff. Like, I love when they're like, oh, it's 200 calories.

You're like, that's it. And it's like, yeah, for every 0.75 of these that you eat, it's like, what?

[00:38:14] Jessica Wynn: Right. It also depends on all those other things on there, if you even know what that all means. So food manufacturers are always playing with words on packages that will increase their sales, but it makes the FDA have really specific definitions for terms like free, low light, reduce less high, even the word healthy.

The current definitions for all of these claims, like anything on packaging on FDA regulated food, it can be found on their website. And I will tell you, it's a lot of information even to just skim over. But the FDA's constantly attempting to combine the psychology of selling with the science of health.

And it makes for really weird mental gymnastics of deciphering what's said on food packaging. It started as a way to preserve and transport food, but each package is like a little billboard. Advertising what's inside.

[00:39:14] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Or distracting you from what's inside. Right. A cereal boxes as a kid, remember those and it was like the back was games and the toy that was in the bottom and stuff, and like they, they were trying really hard not to be like, this is just sugar sprayed on some wheat.

[00:39:27] Jessica Wynn: It's so good for you.

[00:39:29] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. On some starchy flour, are the nutrition labels required to be printed on the back of the package? I notice they're always on the back, or is that just a choice?

[00:39:37] Jessica Wynn: It is a hundred percent a business choice because think about it, printing the nutrition label on the front would be bad for sales.

Yeah, true. So, so then you have the front of the package and that's what we see first. And within seconds it can influence a purchase. This has made the front of packages a battleground between public health advocates and food manufacturers. And because research has shown that positive labels like health stamps or those check marks or whatever, that can overrate a food's healthfulness, public health advocates support initiatives for warning labels, like stop signs to highlight low nutrient foods like those ultra processed snacks.

So all front of package labels in the US are voluntary, so you can put whatever you want on there. So food manufacturers use it to highlight. Or hide nutrition information that will increase their sales. But if warning labels became mandatory, the pressure on manufacturers to improve nutritional quality would definitely increase.

Research finds that. Consumers believe a food marked with a health claim is healthier than a product that doesn't. So if the front of those fruit roll-ups has like a low carb heart healthy stamp, then of course you'll think that pure corn syrup is healthy.

[00:41:00] Jordan Harbinger: But they hide the required things on the back or the side.

[00:41:03] Jessica Wynn: Oh, yeah. Like definitely to hide them, they have to put what the FDA requires on the package somewhere. And what the FDA requires is ingredients, allergy information, and dates like the cell buy Best Buy. Used by dates.

[00:41:19] Jordan Harbinger: I don't know if I've seen warning labels on packaging other than cigarettes. Of course, in, in other countries, cigarette warnings are really gross.

It like shows someone's lung or whatever after they've died, or their teeth, like closeups of their teeth is so gross right on the front.

[00:41:33] Jessica Wynn: In Canada, they've started printing on the cigarette, like the paper that wraps the tobacco. It's like pretty much like you're dying or it says like crazy stuff on the cigarette itself while you're smoking it.

Wow.

[00:41:45] Jordan Harbinger: That's as close as you can get without banning it. I guess the next step is they put an additive in there that makes it taste absolutely rotten and disgusting. Oh, that, and it's only a matter of time because other than outright banning it, which they might not be able to do, they could make it like, Hey, make sure this tastes as horrible as possible,

[00:42:01] Jessica Wynn: like cilantro.

[00:42:03] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Oh yeah. Maybe they could do a little worse than cilantro. Like, Hey, this is Domino's Pizza flavored now. Sorry everybody, we really want you to quit smoking. Yeah. This is gonna taste like Arby's. That's what you guys get. If you're not gonna heed the warning labels, we're gonna make this taste like, like a chalupa.

That's how you get people to quit smoking. So I, the thing is, I don't know if you put the warning label on the food, people are just gonna ignore it probably and keep eating, right?

[00:42:29] Jessica Wynn: Yeah. But I, there's actually several countries like including Chili, Brazil, South Africa, they've mandated front of packaging warning labels and studies on the efficacy of these show that consumers understood and trusted the warning signs and every item, they tried this on lost sales, like dramatically.

So it turns out people respond more quickly to negative information in including mostly that which causes fear.

[00:42:58] Jordan Harbinger: But warnings don't have to be lethal. Warnings could just be for preferred diets. So if you're religious and Jewish, you know the importance of eating kosher. What are the rules there? Those are, I assume, closely regulated.

You can't just lie about something being kosher,

[00:43:12] Jessica Wynn: right? Of course, kosher refers to Jewish dietary law, but those labels are not just useful if you're Jewish. Kosher labels on food products are also useful to vegetarians, vegans, the lactose intolerance and other dietary restrictions. So kosher symbols are printed on all packaging, but it kind of looks like the periodic table.

So if you don't need to know, it's probably overlooked.

[00:43:38] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, there's more than one symbol for kosher. I thought it was just that little You in the circle. I

[00:43:42] Jessica Wynn: know. Yeah, there's. Actually six basic kosher symbols. So the O with the U in it, that means it's kosher but not kosher For Passover, the OUD indicates dairy, OUDE, uh, means dairy equipment was used, and then there's symbols for meat, fish, Passover.

It's, yeah, it's a lot.

[00:44:04] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. So the bottom line is that food packaging must have the ability to be printed on because the government requires it. So thinking about it, that's probably even affected Halloween. There's no fresh baked cookies or candy given out really anymore. I, although, is that might even also be because of all the razor blades and needle scares and candy, which I'm guessing probably happens to one particular neighborhood every decade.

I don't know.

[00:44:28] Jessica Wynn: Yeah, I think a lot of that is like poison candy myth, but there are unfortunately documented incidents that would probably bum us out to discuss, but regardless, like we must be able to trust our food.

[00:44:44] Jordan Harbinger: It's interesting what we notice and what we don't notice on food packaging.

[00:44:48] Jessica Wynn: Yeah, totally.

And what we're conditioned to notice. Food packaging also involves the psychology of recognition, and a lot of research goes into packaging design, like packaging's purpose. So it grew from protecting food to informing consumers to increasing sales. Food companies work really hard to make well-designed logos and packages that evoke positive emotions, create a sense of trust, and establish a strong connection with consumers.

It really plays an influence on our purchasing decisions.

[00:45:25] Jordan Harbinger: I. Emotions. Am I supposed to get emotional when I'm looking at Raisin Bran or whatever?

[00:45:30] Jessica Wynn: Maybe packaging affects so much emotion you aren't even aware of. I can get sad opening a package.

[00:45:37] Jordan Harbinger: Like when you try but fail to open a paper bag of Pepper Ridge Farm Milano cookies.

[00:45:42] Jessica Wynn: Yes. Okay. Yes. Or like those tabs that frustrate us and we can't open the package. And I will start to imagine an elderly person who's alone and they're trying to open what I'm struggling with and it breaks my heart.

[00:45:56] Jordan Harbinger: Oh God. Like

[00:45:56] Jessica Wynn: grandma just wanted to open the ketchup, but she had to get a knife. 'cause the plastic tab under the lid won't pull off and now she's cut herself

[00:46:04] Jordan Harbinger: and oh my God.

You might wanna see a therapist about this. Okay. I get it. The emotion of packaging, I'm on board. But what makes an effective package design? Because for me it seems like a lot of this stuff, it all blurs together.

[00:46:16] Jessica Wynn: Sure. I mean, food packaging 1 0 1, that like simplicity is the most important thing. Food packaging.

It strives for immediate recognition among consumers. So a good logo will be easily incorporated into all marketing materials like packaging.

[00:46:35] Jordan Harbinger: There's psychology behind memorable logos as well, I assume. Just like jingles.

[00:46:40] Jessica Wynn: Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. And color psychology is the most important. Different colors conjure different emotions and studies prove red and yellow stimulate food cravings.

So it's no coincidence. So many food packages and logos are red and yellow. Think the McDonald's arches, Ritz crackers, Doritos.

[00:47:03] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, they went all in. I mean, Doritos, they made the actual food orange. And then there's Wendy's Burger King In-N-Out Cheez-It lays, now that I think about it, I've never really noticed it before, but lots of this junk food is the same set of colors I

[00:47:17] Jessica Wynn: know.

I know, and red and yellow are everywhere in them. And like you said about the Doritos, think about how many other snacks and sauces and chips are orange. Orange is a blend of red and yellow, and we perceive it as more appetizing,

[00:47:33] Jordan Harbinger: which is weird because I don't think, oh, this is the best color for Cheetos, and yet orange is the best color for Cheetos, baby.

That's why I can eat so many. Does the shape of the packaging also matter, or is that more of a practical concern?

[00:47:47] Jessica Wynn: Yeah, I mean it does matter to some extent, but mostly just our packages are shaped the way they are. For stackability, like the shapes and symbols printed on packaging, they promote the brand or health benefits.

So like that check mark or that heart shape on a package is communicating things to a consumer. The typography and font play a role in our eating habits too, like how words and letters are written. Captures our attention. It sends different messages, and a lot of it is subliminal. According to research, consumers make a subconscious judgment about a product in less than 90 seconds of viewing it, and 62 to 90% of them base that assessment solely on color.

Color registers much faster than text, or the complex graphics or those nutrition labels. The colors chosen for our food packaging have intended subliminal messages to attract customers. Think about the bright colors used for children's foods and drinks, and then softer colors. They're more appealing to older consumers.

Colors like green or blue help to portray healthier options, and these links between colors and the influence they have on human emotion and behavior. It's really well established. It's similar to how like neurons fire when we're hungry that the color red enhances the appetite and stimulates a physical response.

Our brain processes yellow the fastest, so it grabs attention and studies show yellow actually releases serotonin. So on a subliminal level, that might make consumers feel good about what they're buying. In scientific study researching orange juice packaging, it was found that orange packaging led consumers to expect a higher level of fruit juice content compared to the same beverage and white packaging.

[00:49:47] Jordan Harbinger: That's interesting. By the way, I love the way you say orange or orange, as you say. That's very, I know chic somehow. Are any colors bad for marketing? Because now that I think about it, if yellow and red are good, it almost seems like the, the opposite of those, if you can do that with colors, would be bad.

[00:50:03] Jessica Wynn: Yeah, sure. You'll see red and yellow the most next time you go to the market. I bet. Now. But blue is the most unappetizing color besides blueberries. The color blue is almost non-existent in natural food. And the thought of it like through evolution, that might make us think of mold.

[00:50:20] Jordan Harbinger: I just think of blue cheese and cool ranch Doritos, but that's their problem.

[00:50:24] Jessica Wynn: Well, right. Yeah. There's cool ranch Doritos and then there's Oreos. So there's definitely exceptions. Blue's a complicated one because there was a study in the seventies where people lost their appetite and got sick when served a steak that was dyed blue with food coloring, despite it being perfectly edible.

But all colors have positive uses, so. I bet it was through these studies, they figured out blue implies water and freshness, so it can be good for like bottled water or milk or seafood. White packaging makes people think that the product does not contain many ingredients, and brands also see benefits of using black to portray a sense of luxury, like think like Monster Energy drinks or Jack Daniels.

[00:51:09] Jordan Harbinger: Food packaging sounds like it is As manipulative as subliminal advertising.

[00:51:14] Jessica Wynn: Yeah. Food packaging is indeed subliminal. Advertising and food packaging reaches us young, like targeted marketing raises serious concerns when it comes to our children. Food marketing to children. It's not just bright colors, right?

It uses childish lettering, cartoon characters, celebrity photos of sports people, and references to fun and play. Like theoretically, if a company wants to start building brand recognition and loyalty early, it can aim at three year olds. That's when it's been found. We can start to remember brands, so products with children.

Targeted elements on the packaging are. Found to be higher in fat, sugar, and salt in comparison with foods targeted to the general population.

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Jordan harbinger.com/deals. Alright, now for the rest of skeptical Sunday, this might even be a dumb question because it seems so obvious to me, but like, why don't healthy food manufacturers design their packaging the same way? 'cause I got stuff for my kids, and you're right, the snacks are all like, there's cartoon characters on them and there's skateboarding and the other one's doing a flip, and then it's like, here's the healthy stuff geared towards kids.

And it's like a picture of an apple on a white background.

[00:56:00] Jessica Wynn: Totally. I cannot find a good answer to this. Like food packaging strategies should be focused on limiting promotions of unhealthy food to children, but it seems the healthier the food, the more boring the package, even if it's for kids. It's like inexplicable.

I really wish I had a good answer as to why this is.

[00:56:21] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, the only theory I can think of is that the packaging is actually geared towards adults to get them to buy it, but then it's fine, but I gotta convince my kid to eat this. I

[00:56:31] Jessica Wynn: know.

[00:56:31] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. So it's crazy. I might buy the one that has the apple on the white background and be like, aha, this is healthy.

But then I ask my son if he wants it and he is like, no, I want the checks mix with the guy who's skateboarding on his head. So thanks a lot. They do get us young with the images and I know also that by buying cereal for myself 'cause I don't let my kids eat it, but there's no toys in the package anymore.

I went to go get some cap and crunch 'cause I was like, oh, I can buy whatever cereal I want now. And I thought, oh, there's gonna be like a bouncy ball in there, or some sort of flying disc shooting thing and there's nothing in there. And I looked this up. It's illegal now to do that.

[00:57:10] Jessica Wynn: Yeah, I think they passed that in like the early two thousands.

I don't know if it was because it was making kids by crappy foods or if it was a choking hazard. I'm not sure exactly why, but for whatever reason the FDA said no more toys, but. McDonald's, of course, has a loophole and they still have toys in their Happy Meals. I guess there's ways to get around it. I don't know.

Yeah,

[00:57:34] Jordan Harbinger: interesting. That's a good point. Maybe because they're quote unquote a restaurant, they can do that kind of thing, but you can't do it at the grocery, I think. '

[00:57:40] Jessica Wynn: cause technically it's not prepackaged. I don't know.

[00:57:43] Jordan Harbinger: Maybe you're onto something. You're right. They did come through that unscathed. I'm sure there were a few steak dinners involved in them being able to continue doing that.

[00:57:52] Jessica Wynn: Plus it's complicated for children's products because it is, it's marketing to the kids and the parents. But have you noticed products for your kids? They're on the lower shelves.

[00:58:03] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I guess I haven't really paid attention to that, but it does make sense. And you're right, a lot of the smaller serving size stuff is on the lower shelves and candy and stuff like that.

I guess that's more good business. But it's not just kids that are swayed by the packaging.

[00:58:16] Jessica Wynn: Oh, for sure. I mean, what do they say? You never get a second chance to make a first impression. That's why high quality food packaging is essential in the context of like customer satisfaction. Food products with eye catching packaging simply have an aesthetic advantage in the market.

And as consumers browse more and more online on Instacart and food delivery sites, packaging is more important than on the supermarket shelves. Companies can significantly increase the sale of items, just buy their packaging.

[00:58:52] Jordan Harbinger: Food packaging has done so many things and it is a huge sales tool, obviously.

I mean, I guess that part should have been more obvious to me from the jump.

[00:58:59] Jessica Wynn: Yeah, I mean, we just don't think about it. And one trend food packaging must stand out in now is social media. 40% of consumers share images of food packaging on social media. This means that creative food packaging can touch on those emotions and psychology via posts and photos.

[00:59:19] Jordan Harbinger: With all the awareness directed and environmentalism on social media, what is the food packaging industry doing to keep up with that? If anything? I.

[00:59:27] Jessica Wynn: Yeah, of course. Another complicated issue. It's all trial and error right now. Nothing that's been tried has been the solution. So unpacking the environmental footprint of food packaging, it's really involved and from the plastics that in case our groceries to the coatings on our to go coffee cups, the choices made in food packaging, they have like far reaching consequences and we just haven't found a perfect eco-friendly solution.

[00:59:54] Jordan Harbinger: Plastic packaging is just a growing ecological menace. I'm almost getting tired of talking about it.

[01:00:00] Jessica Wynn: Yeah, it's because it's tiring to talk about. Plastic packaging has become synonymous with convenience though, even though it comes at a great cost to the environment. My opinion, we have been convinced we the consumers are the problem and need to recycle and bring a bag instead of food manufacturers and water bottle factories and other big corporations taking accountability for the materials that they foist on us.

What can a person do grocery shopping? Hey, excuse me. Do you have any food sustainably grown and walking distance that have had no contact with plastic? It's an impossible thing. So we know plastic food packaging pollutes the oceans and microplastics enter the food chain and end up back on our plate.

But we need to eat.

[01:00:48] Jordan Harbinger: So in a way, we're packaging our packaging and we're becoming this sort of meat sack that holds the broken down plastic packaging that used to hold our food and now ended up in our food. And it's meta, it's like packaged deception.

[01:01:01] Jessica Wynn: I don't know if I'd call us meat sacks. I'll take it as a compliment, I guess.

Sure. What can consumers really do but complain? The environmental concerns that surround traditional packaging material is slowly shifting towards sustainable alternatives within the food industry and these alternatives, including biodegradable and compostable materials, they do hold promise in reducing the ecological footprint of food packaging.

It's just, it's really expensive. And shoppers also, they need to be educated. They need to understand the benefits of eco-friendly packaging and be willing to support businesses that make environmentally responsible choices. Like, I might like the plastic packaging more, but you just have to weigh the options.

[01:01:52] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, sure. It's a slow change. Are there health implications of modern food packaging?

[01:01:57] Jessica Wynn: Oh yeah, of course. Beyond the ecological concerns, many food packaging materials contain chemicals and they can migrate into the food that they encase, and that raises concerns about their impact on our health. But consumers have the right to know what they're exposing themselves to when purchasing packaged foods.

It's just really hard to sift through all the bs. For both the manufacturers, the consumers, and the FDA regulatory agencies around the world monitor and then ban the use of certain chemicals in food packaging as they find out. Yeah,

[01:02:34] Jordan Harbinger: after we've all consumed like 300 million tons of it and it's okay. 15 years ago we had a hint this was bad and now we're pretty sure.

So in the next 25 years we're gonna ban this. Thanks a lot. Yeah. It's a bit of a relief, but considering the nutrition label thing wasn't locked down until 1990, I just think there's gotta be so much work to be done to ensure the safety of food packaging materials and public health 'cause of lobbying and all that.

[01:02:57] Jessica Wynn: Oh yeah, for sure. But at least there is a call for action and awareness in our quest for convenience. We can't overlook the profound consequences of the packaging choices we make.

[01:03:10] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. But then you get hungry and just grab whatever without considering the packaging. If, I mean I do that and are there real solutions?

'cause it seems so outta control. What is the future of food Packaging

[01:03:21] Jessica Wynn: Innovations are making food packaging that increase the shelf life of food products. Technology's actually playing a major role in new food packaging,

[01:03:32] Jordan Harbinger: so high tech food packaging. I don't know if I've come across this. What's that all about?

[01:03:36] Jessica Wynn: You have come across it though, like those little gel pads or things like it in the food packages that keep our food fresh don't eat. They're really high tech and new and tracking devices ingrained in packaging are being used. It's just not ready to be used by consumers yet. But 21st century innovations in nanotechnology are used for demands for global and fast transport of fresh, safe food

[01:04:03] Jordan Harbinger: companies are actually tracking all of their packages.

To what end will my food maybe one day itself? Tell me if it's safe to eat.

[01:04:11] Jessica Wynn: I mean, my guess is. Absolutely. Yes. Packaging protects food from environmental influences like heat, moisture, oxygen, and on and on prolonging shelf life. We've always put things in the food to preserve products. Think of hops like.

That's where IPA comes from. So when the British colonized India, they wanted their British beer, the only way to get it there preserved was to pack it with hops. And so it became India pale ale. And so that's why we have hoppy things. It was just a preservation technique. But now we can put things in the packaging itself to preserve food.

And these new tracking systems enable tracking through the food supply chain from the source to disposal.

[01:04:59] Jordan Harbinger: Tracking system. So is it like smart food packaging?

[01:05:02] Jessica Wynn: Yeah, man. Active and intelligent food packaging is happening, and it's not to tell you just where the package is, but the quality of the contents.

So active packaging, it interacts with the food and the environment to increase food preservation. Developments in active packaging have led to advances in like everything from delayed oxidation and microbial growth to odor and aroma emitters, intelligent packaging. It's designed to monitor and communicate information about the food quality like ripeness and temperature.

These smart devices can be incorporated right into the packaging material or attached to the inside or outside of a package. And the FDA is recognizing this and it's researching all these technological advancements. Then it'll probably be more prevalent on the market, but Walmart, home Depot, and like other retail outlets, they already use radio frequency identification.

So it's likely to become very prominent for tracking and tracing produce and other perishables.

[01:06:10] Jordan Harbinger: So my food's just gonna say, Hey, eat me, or, Hey, it's too late, throw me away.

[01:06:14] Jessica Wynn: I'm telling you absolutely yes. You can find the beginnings of this in the meat industry where there's these oxygen scavengers that are embedded into the packaging and they remove the oxygen, so it keeps the meat.

Better, fresher, longer. There's like absorbent pads that are in use to suppress microbial growth. And there's all kinds of tech tricks that can be incorporated into our packaging to make the food last longer. They're all being put into use.

[01:06:43] Jordan Harbinger: So this nanotechnology is in the packaging itself. That is pretty cool.

I'm wondering when we're gonna have scratch and sniff, remember those stickers you had as a kid? And it would be like, this is a strawberry guy and you could scratch it and it smelled a little bit. I always wonder why, for example, candy packaging doesn't smell like the candy and then it wafts up to you while you're checking out and it's, oh, I want some licorice.

Now suddenly, I guess if every package did it, it would just smell disgusting in there. But I don't know.

[01:07:11] Jessica Wynn: Uh, I don't know. I've gotta wait for harbinger candy or something. I mean, I think that's not smells just like

[01:07:16] Jordan Harbinger: Jordan Harbinger. Yummy.

[01:07:18] Jessica Wynn: It's not a bad idea. I would rather scratch and sniff something.

[01:07:22] Jordan Harbinger: Careful what you say next. Careful what you say next. My wife listens to the show.

[01:07:29] Jessica Wynn: It actually opened the milk container or whatever, right. It might save us a step, so

[01:07:34] Jordan Harbinger: that's true.

[01:07:35] Jessica Wynn: But there's actually a company called Fresher Longer, and they're testing storage containers that allegedly contains silver nanoparticles infused into the packaging that to stop the growth of microorganisms.

There's just so much research and testing happening.

[01:07:53] Jordan Harbinger: So tech is all about freshness pretty much so far.

[01:07:56] Jessica Wynn: Yeah. ab absolutely the smart packaging goal. It's not only shelf life extension, but it aims to reduce food safety risks that are associated with improper storage and cooking.

[01:08:09] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I like the idea that high tech food packaging sounds like it has the potential to eliminate foodborne illness, which I assume kills a zillion people a year globally.

It's really incredible.

[01:08:19] Jessica Wynn: Yeah. I'm not sure the number, but of course, yeah, it's a threat. And so using these like radio frequency identification systems, they're called R-F-I-D-I. You could use those wirelessly and they're tags that store data, transfer it to a reader, and then that data is decoded. The tags remind me of when we tag our pets, if those tags, not only were telling us where our pet is, but the health of our pet.

[01:08:46] Jordan Harbinger: It's like an apple air tag, but for food, your steak is on Wilshire Boulevard and it's approximately 42 degrees Fahrenheit and it never dipped below that, or it never went above that for too long. So you're probably good to eat this thing.

[01:08:58] Jessica Wynn: Yeah, you'll know everything. But like those air tags, they're pretty expensive.

So RFID tags, they're still too pricey right now for use on individual packages, and there's actually. Privacy concerns. So currently those tags, they can be read by any compatible reader, so whatever data's on them is vulnerable to hackers. A shipment could get rerouted purchasing info stolen, or depending on the kind of package being tracked, access to VIP locations or hotel rooms could be authorized.

So the guidelines for the ethical use of the RFID, they need to be established.

[01:09:36] Jordan Harbinger: So it sounds like one day I might be able to use, I don't know, asparagus to get backstage at a Taylor Swift concert. I can't wait.

[01:09:44] Jessica Wynn: I didn't know you were as Swifty Jordan.

[01:09:46] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I slowly have become one. It's not even, yeah, I don't want to go down that road right now.

The ethics of food packaging. Wow. Are companies on board. It just seems like they would benefit from this.

[01:09:57] Jessica Wynn: Oh, for sure. Like I said, Walmart and Home Depot, they've been testing the technology and then there's others that advocate this RFID Tech, like the US Department of Defense. Major retailers like Albertsons, target, Tesco, they're all for it and RFID technology.

It also provides security and safety. Benefits for food companies through tracking the origin of supplies. For example, and I don't know how I feel about this, but a small California winery uses RFID to track its barrels and then uses the data to make sure their product is being sold at its highest integrity.

It's kind of like spying on a restaurant or bar.

[01:10:41] Jordan Harbinger: Oh geez. I'm not sure how a dive bar owner would feel about the supply chain of his pickled eggs being scrutinized too closely, but I do like the idea of making sure stuff's not spoiled by the time it gets to you.

[01:10:51] Jessica Wynn: Yeah, it's a good point though. Smart packaging will affect customer service and with RFD technology, the package, it becomes intelligent.

And get this, it will even be able to communicate with your appliances and identify information related to the storage of your packaged food. These like outstanding tracing abilities of RFID tags to individual food products, they. Can let manufacturers audit every single phase of a product monitoring Correct.

Handling transportation, storage, delivery, and consumption.

[01:11:31] Jordan Harbinger: So my refrigerator can eventually tell me via text message maybe that I left the yogurt out and I, I actually kind of need that. It sounds like we've come a long way. From hollowed out logs as food packaging.

[01:11:44] Jessica Wynn: I know, and it kind of crept into our lives unnoticed too.

Remember those Coors cans and the mountains turned blue and it was cold enough to drink? Oh yeah,

[01:11:53] Jordan Harbinger: that's right. That's right.

[01:11:54] Jessica Wynn: It seems so gimmicky. But that was really high tech things being tested. I mean, the RFID system, it has some technical weaknesses, but it's really exciting. And nanotechnology innovation could potentially raise food safety and food quality.

So the research of nanotech for food packaging, it began in the nineties, like before the Coors cans with this cool luminescent protein spray that glows bright bound to e coli or salmonella more recently. Researchers at the University of Pennsylvania have used nano-sized carbon tubes and they coat them with strands of DNA to create nanosensors with abilities to detect odors and tastes.

[01:12:42] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. I'm stuck on the poop detecting spray. Keep that away from me at all costs. So you might be disappointed at the results. So food packaging will itself be able to taste someday, essentially. How cool is that? That's awesome.

[01:12:56] Jessica Wynn: I mean, I think it's possible, but do we want our packaging to taste test our food?

I don't know. I'm for it right now, but we will have to wait and see.

[01:13:05] Jordan Harbinger: I think that wraps up our discussion on food packaging. Super interesting. A lot of cool stuff coming down the pipe, even if I'm a little nostalgic for bouncy balls and my cereal.

[01:13:15] Jessica Wynn: Yeah, it's for the best. I probably assure you. And you had some pretty fresh dad jokes this time.

That was fun.

[01:13:22] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it was fun. Thanks for listening. Topic suggestions for future episodes of Skeptical Sunday toJordan@jordanharbinger.com. Show notes@jordanharbinger.com. Transcripts in the show notes, which again are@jordanharbinger.com. Advertisers deals, discounts, and ways to support the show are at Jordan harbinger.com/deals.

I'm at Jordan Harbinger. I say my name a lot during the show, don't I? On both Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Just search for, no, I don't need to tell you what to search for. You can find Jessica on her substack between the lines, and we'll link to that in the show notes as well.

This show is created in association with Podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, and Gabriel Rahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but not your lawyer, so do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show.

Also, we may get a few things wrong here and there, especially with Skeptical Sunday. So if you think we all really dropped the ball on something, definitely let us know. We're usually pretty receptive to that. Y'all know how to reach me, jordan@jordanharbinger.com. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love.

And if you found this episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use a good dose of the skepticism and learning. We doled out today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show, aside from the poop detecting spray, you might wanna stay away from that so you can live what you learn and we'll see you next time.

You are about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger Show with the investigator who solved a serial killer case that had gone cold for decades.

[01:14:49] Clip: Decades. There was a definite. Spike in serial predator crime in the 1970s. Part of it was the ready victim pools that don't exist today. Houses generally didn't have alarm systems.

We don't see women hitchhiking much today. Joe DeAngelo was a full-time law enforcement officer. He's breaking into houses in the middle of the night, raping women or girls that are home alone that he's binding up and sexually assaulting. He ended up committing 50 of these attacks in Northern California between 19 76, 19 79, and just disappeared.

I started working that case in 1994. As a cold case investigator, even though the case is 30 years old, it's like, no, you know, this is still a public safety issue. We need to remove this offender from society. And in 2001 10 people had been killed across six cases. I'm seeing this woman's body laying inside her house in the photos of her alive on the shelf above her body.

She battled for her life, and I could see this combat go throughout that entire room. After the Golden State Killer raped some of his victims, he would crouch in the corner and cry. They said he was sobbing, you know, it was like genuine. In fact, one victim, he was sobbing while he was raping her. The last thing I did in my career before I retired was I drove up and parked in front of his house.

I debated, should I just go knock on his door? I didn't know he was the Golden State killer, but this was such a brazen, brutal predator. He absolutely had to be caught

[01:16:30] Jordan Harbinger: to learn more about how Paul Holes puts himself inside the minds of serial killers. Check out episode 7 25 of the Jordan Harbinger Show.