Gary Vaynerchuk (@garyvee) is the chairman of VaynerX, the active CEO of VaynerMedia, and the author of several bestselling books, including #AskGaryVee: One Entrepreneur’s Take on Leadership, Social Media, and Self-Awareness. [Note: This is a previously broadcast episode from the vault that we felt deserved a fresh listen!]
What We Discuss with Gary Vaynerchuk:
- With so many platforms at his disposal, why does Gary continue to write books?
- Where does a workaholic like Gary stand on the concept of work/life balance?
- When do we quit if something isn’t working?
- How do you know if you’re hard-wired to be an entrepreneur?
- How do we balance the hunger required to achieve Plan A while not taking too much comfort in Plan B?
- And much more…
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When this interview was conducted, Belarusian-boy-done-good Gary Vaynerchuk had just come out with his book #AskGaryVee: One Entrepreneur’s Take on Leadership, Social Media, and Self-Awareness. In the spirit of its publication, we took the opportunity to ask him a lot of the questions that have come in regularly from listeners about entrepreneurship and business.
Listen to this episode in its entirety to find out why Gary thinks more people will be listening to this podcast in 2031 than 2016, what happens when you understand yourself and deploy self-awareness, how to know if you’re wired to be an entrepreneur, why Gary loves meritocracy capitalism and marketplace dynamics more than he likes his own vested interest, how to ensure having a Plan B (and even a Plan C, etc.) won’t sabotage your Plan A, what parenting lessons Gary learned from his own upbringing and how he applies them to his own kids, what it means to play in the “white space” and how to find it, why Gary hopes to raise the bar with #AskGaryVee, why meditation isn’t for Gary, what differences exist between younger and older entrepreneurs, and why getting romantic about how you make your money is one of the best ways to go out of business. [Note: This is a previously broadcast episode from the vault that we felt deserved a fresh listen!]
Please Scroll Down for Featured Resources and Transcript!
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This Episode Is Sponsored By:
- Glenfiddich: Find out more about the Glenfiddich #Richest25 here
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Miss the show we did with Vince Beiser — author of The World in a Grain: The Story of Sand and How It Transformed Civilization? Make sure to check out episode 97: Vince Beiser | Why Sand Is More Important Than You Think It Is!
Thanks, Gary Vaynerchuk!
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Resources from This Episode:
- #AskGaryVee: One Entrepreneur’s Take on Leadership, Social Media, and Self-Awareness by Gary Vaynerchuk | Amazon
- Other Books by Gary Vaynerchuk | Amazon
- Hard Work & Patience: A Gary Vaynerchuk Original Film
- Gary Vaynerchuk | Website
- Gary Vaynerchuk | Twitter
- Gary Vaynerchuk | Instagram
- Gary Vaynerchuk | YouTube
- Wine Library TV
597: Gary Vaynerchuk | Leadership, Social Media, and Self-Awareness
[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Special thanks to our sponsor Glenfiddich single malt scotch whisky. For the next few weeks and for the past few weeks, you've heard me talk about Glenfiddich, their highly recognizable stag icon, their new body of work that aims to challenge the traditional notions, commonly portrayed in culture, of what it means to be wealthy and live a life of riches. Glenfiddich believes that beyond the material, a life of wealth and riches is about family, community, values, and fulfilling work. These are the values that led Glenfiddich to become the world's leading single malt scotch whisky. This week's guest, Gary Vaynerchuk, exemplifies a few of these values. You'll find out why later on in the episode. More from our partners at Glenfiddich coming up later in the show.
[00:00:36] Coming up next on The Jordan Harbinger Show.
[00:00:39] Gary Vaynerchuk: Win the marathon and lose the sprints. Like having three business failures, you know, you've gone from a nice apartment to a worse apartment. Now, you live in a rental studio. Now, you live in a trailer, but then you build a $10-million business, you won. You won in a 17-year period. You just happen to lose in a three-month, three-year, five-year period, right? Like it's just about: how does it end?
[00:01:04] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people. We have in-depth conversations with people at the top of their game, astronauts, entrepreneurs, spies, and psychologists, even the occasional Fortune 500 CEO, organized crime figure, or a music mogul. Each episode turns our guests' wisdom into practical advice that you can use to build a deeper understanding of how the world works and become a better critical thinker.
[00:01:30] If you're new to the show, or you want to tell your friends about the show, we've got these episode starter packs, and these are collections of top episodes organized by popular topic to help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show, just visit jordanharbinger.com/start to get started or to help somebody else get started with us. And of course, I always appreciate it when you share the show with others.
[00:01:51] Today, one from the vaults recorded a while back, we're talking with Gary Vaynerchuk. If you've been using social media at all for the past decade or so, this guy has been in your feed, possibly more than you'd like for quite some time now. He's built a beast of a business with VaynerMedia, and he's always dishing out advice for entrepreneurs and business owners. His brand of off-the-cuff frankness and almost manic delivery, that style is something of a trademark. Gary and I actually go back over 10 years, it might even be close to 15 now. So this conversation is unlike any other that he's had before, especially when he's interviewed on podcasts. We get pretty personal and we get pretty detailed with competitive instinct with young entrepreneurs versus older entrepreneurs, and working inside and outside of the system. So there's so much here in traditional Gary Vee style. So enjoy this one. I know you will.
[00:02:37] Here we go with Gary Vaynerchuk.
[00:02:42] My first question is, why do you keep writing books? And I say that, I put a little bit of stank on that.
[00:02:47] Gary Vaynerchuk: No, it's a question.
[00:02:49] Jordan Harbinger: It's not just because you have something to say because you got other platforms for that.
[00:02:52] Gary Vaynerchuk: That's right.
[00:02:53] Jordan Harbinger: It's not just a direct money play because publishing sucks for that generally, unless I'm missing something.
[00:02:58] Gary Vaynerchuk: No, I make way more money speaking and other ways to monetize the personal brand.
[00:03:04] Jordan Harbinger: Right. So is this street cred for speaking or is there more to the story that I just don't get.
[00:03:08] Gary Vaynerchuk: I think it's street cred for speaking for a lot of people. And if you're listening and you're just getting going, you know, even for you guys, I think there's some validity against that in other people. I had that happen to know '09, '10, '11. So I'm past that too. There's a really funny answer to this question. There's a lot of people that are the complete opposite of me. They actually consume information much better in written book form. And there is a stunning amount of people who love reading books and consuming, and don't want to watch a 20-minute video and don't want to follow every social media person and click a link and read a medium that their choice, their preference to consume information is in Kindle or print form when they're traveling on vacation .Or before to go to sleep, they like reading a book. This is a literally eating my own dog food of not being romantic about any platform and recognizing there's a lot of ways, a lot of people consume information. And every three years or so, I kind of gathered up, put it together in $20 book form, you know, and away we go. So I actually think it's, there's a real, tremendous ROI to a lot of people that it cost 20 bucks. They can read in three to five hours. They like it. And so I'm not trying to impose my will of how people shouldn't consume information, instead I'm just on romantic about it and I'm producing it in a medium that clearly millions of people still prefer.
[00:04:38] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, this sounds so weird for someone like me, but I just got back into reading and the reason that I like it so much, well, one I had to, because everybody sends me galleys. Nobody says, "I made a 20-minute video that summarizes my new book," that's yet to happen. That would be awesome but it doesn't. So I started reading again on the Kindle. I plow through stuff, but what I love about reading is it forces the thought leader to really explain everything because so many people are looking at these drafts and then there's an editor who like, doesn't care about what you do, looking at it. And it has to make sense to them. And the publishers got people looking at it who have no idea who the hell you are, maybe. So they're looking at it versus a video, which is great to get an authentic feel for someone's personality. But the information might not be as clear as it is in a book where there's so many people nitpicking, everything you said.
[00:05:25] Hell, I sent you a thing where I was like, "Oh, I think this is a mistake that you wrote in the book. And you're like, "Yeah, hopefully we got that." And then Alex, your assistant got back and was like, "Nah, dude, I think you're just misreading it." And I'm like, "Well, I don't know," because everybody's smarter than you, right? When you're looking at a book and I just realized, "Wow, I'm probably one of like a thousand people that send in something like that. And when something's getting picked apart that much, there's going to be a lot more detail on it. And some people love that. I like that. I think a lot of people, yeah, millennials probably hate that stuff because they just want look quick info. And I'm with them on that most of the time.
[00:05:59] Gary Vaynerchuk: You know what awesome though the book is made in that way. I mean, I'm talking a lot of sh*t to my audience about perfectly parented and I wish everybody was an immigrant and all these other books I want to write, but I'll be honest with you. The early feedback from people that are getting to scratch both are itches, the fact of matter is I wrote it in a way where it's Q and A and there's chapters. And so I've been stunned by how many people picked me up that are reading it for reviewing purposes. And here's the punchline, of people that don't even like me, they have to do it because they're writing it for their magazine or website. And these are people literally I've gotten emails that are like, "Hey man, I'll be honest with you. I thought you were douche bag, but I always had people around me saying, no, he's a good guy and he's smart. So I was like, eh, and then I had to read this because I'm the one who's responsible for reviewing it. And I got to be honest with you, man. It's a great book. And what I like best is I can read chapter 13 that I read chapter 19, that I went back to one it's built in a format that's more made for my brain." And I think the format is going to give me a chance to have a format that I can go back to the well with. And I think a lot of people are going to enjoy.
[00:07:01] Jordan Harbinger: Obviously, you're a workaholic of some kind, kind of like me. You love building things. You love making things. At least we can maybe agree on that. People talk about work-life balance. This is like a buzzword thing. People talk about it a lot, how it doesn't exist because of Internet, blah, blah, blah. Where do you stand on that?
[00:07:16] Gary Vaynerchuk: I stand on it being a very, very individual thing. Meaning, I have no interest in imposing my work-life balance on anybody else. Jordan, I don't know if you've been seeing, but these daily Vees, these kinds of daily blogs I've been putting out, they've really created an interesting storm for me in two directions. Number one, people are emailing me and saying, "Geez, man, I followed you for seven years. I've heard you talk about hustle from the day I met you. I didn't get it. You're like really working at a level that makes me feel uncomfortable. I was saying that is a good thing." And then there's other people saying, "Hey man, cool and great, great job, buddy. You're going to be a billionaire by the jets, but your family is going to hate you and you're going to regret this and you're going to die lonely," right?
[00:07:57] Jordan Harbinger: Oh yeah.
[00:07:57] Gary Vaynerchuk: And so Lizzie and I have our work-life balance. We communicate about it. We grew up a certain way, both with fathers that work their faces off in different ways for different reasons, mine, immigrant and ambitious, Lizzie's ambitious and corporate superstar. And so I think that it's a common conversation, but I think it's kind of like raising kids, right? I would never have the audacity to tell somebody how to raise their children because every individual situation is different. People aren't in my bedroom. They don't know what makes me and my wife happy for me and my kids or how things play out, or the fact that when I'm home — I mean, this is literally one of the first times in three years that I'm actually doing a work thing on a weekend. Why? Because it's two days before my book comes out and I'm in that zone and I'm okay with doing that once every three years, but I'm all in when I'm around.
[00:08:45] A lot of people who judge my work-life balance, a lot of people that are going to tweet about this podcast around this issue, when they're home, they're looking at their phone, they're playing video games. They're not really engaging mentally with their spouse or their children. And so I don't think it's a quantity game. I think it's a quality game. I also think that you're speaking right now to a guy whose dad, he didn't even know until 14 years old, because he worked every minute and I have the greatest relationship in the world with my dad. And I love him so much. And I've been massively fulfilled if either one of us leave the earth tomorrow. I will feel phenomenal of the quality of our relationship and the depth and the time.
[00:09:19] And so I think people think in micro moments, yes, I get it. You'll never get back the moments when a kid is three and they do the first this and that and other thing. On the flip side, you never get back to moments in the 20s, 30s, and 40s. I mean, when my parents and I go on vacation together, like I go and lay in their bed until two in the morning, right? Talk to them and that comes out of having a great relationship. And that doesn't happen for a lot of people who saw every whistle ball game and every dance recital. And then their kids turned 18 and never want to come back, right?
[00:09:48] Jordan Harbinger: Right.
[00:09:48] Gary Vaynerchuk: I have no interest in telling people how to live their work-life balance. I'm thrilled for anybody to critique mine because I understand I put myself so out there, so I deserve it. I have no interest in trying to defend against it. I just want everybody know the only people that I'm going to respond to around this conversation are the 11 people in my most inner circle of my family, who are the people that I most care about around this issue.
[00:10:14] Jordan Harbinger: I think that's wise.
[00:10:15] Gary Vaynerchuk: Not Rick from Kansas, who I adore, who probably bought 15 copies of this book, who I would love to talk about a million things about business, how to help him. "I'm here for you. But trust me, brother, I have no interest on your point of view on something that I've spent all my time and effort on every day, communicating with those 11 people."
[00:10:34] Jordan Harbinger: I think why is because I think a lot of people spend way too much time listening to other people on every issue, but work-life balance, it's a really intimate topic and it's not something that anybody's figured out for everyone else. It's impossible to do that.
[00:10:48] Gary Vaynerchuk: It's intimate boy. To me, that's like getting into like your sex life territory.
[00:10:53] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, exactly, exactly. I agree with that. And I think if you're a guy like yourself, who's got everything turned up to 11 a lot of the time, if you're turning up the family life stuff and it's like, "Okay, I'm done with work. We're not just going to sit around and watch TV. We got plans. We're going to the zoo. And then after that, we're going to go have a nice lunch. Then we're going to go visit grandma and grandpa, and then we're going to take naps and then we're going to get up and go to the movies." You're packing in great experience. And it's not just, yeah, you're not just playing Mario Kart with your kids for five hours and being like, "I parented today," right?
[00:11:22] Gary Vaynerchuk: Yeah. By the way. And that's fun to five hours, just show like what's everybody's point of view in four years when I take Xandra, Misha every Jets road game, and we leave on Friday nights and we have all that time and Saturday, because we went to San Diego on the road and we went to the San Diego zoo and then we went to the game and then they're meeting their favorite football players on the field. Like there's a lot of benefits from doing successful business things. That then you build up the leverage and then you get the deploy it.
[00:11:49] By the way, when I went to Misha's recital the other day from nine to 11 in the morning, I did that by looking myself in the mirror and deciding that. It's unfortunate and it makes me sad. And my heart breaks for the thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of individuals who can't go to that recital because their boss wouldn't give him off that day.
[00:12:07] Jordan Harbinger: Right.
[00:12:08] Gary Vaynerchuk: I mean, this is a very in-depth conversation. Yes. I worked 15 to 18 hours a day all the time, hundreds of days a year. But by the way, there's still 100 days a year left 125 days a year left where I can do enormous amounts of things. The end.
[00:12:28] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I feel like people impose this on others because of their own kind of guilt.
[00:12:33] Gary Vaynerchuk: Of course, which is why — look, I'm so content and so ambitious at the same time. But out of my contentment, I have no interest in judging others because it's not going to make me feel better about myself. I already feel the best about myself.
[00:12:50] Jordan Harbinger: That's great actually. I like that. I don't know what else to do with that.
[00:12:53] Gary Vaynerchuk: I mean, it's a very important thing. When you get into the best place with yourself, it's stunning how you treat others. You know why I'm a good dude? You know why everybody that really knows me undercover, feels good about me, and what's building up as my reputation as I'm starting to chip away. And by the way, I'm only going to get way stronger and way more liked than way bigger and way better because of it. It comes out of being happy with myself. It then gives me unlimited ability to help others. Like, it's just easy for me because I don't need anything from anybody.
[00:13:24] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Your cup overflow as they say somewhere.
[00:13:27] Gary Vaynerchuk: Jordan, when we sat down and said, "Look, we need to do podcasts for the book." And the first words out of my mouth, I wish you could have saw it, I was like, "Guys, I didn't do it that long ago." I'm like, "Listen, if he comes back and says, no, that's going to make a lot of sense for me. And please reply with like, thank you so much. And like, is there anything we can do for you?" Because I default into wanting to provide 51 percent to the other person. I know what to do with my 49. I'm that talented. I'm that good. I'm that hungry. I'm that strong. I want to work that hard. And when you get into that place, when you get into that real Zen place, well, then you become massively liked because you become really not selfish. You really deploy empathy at scale, which is something I wrote about in this book on purpose, you start really caring about what the other person cares about.
[00:14:15] And my thought is, I'm so f*cking jazzed up for this interview. And I think the reason I've already had two or three good things in this interview is, I feel so guilty that you're having me back on. That I'm like, okay, I need to deliver like seven, 15 f*cking zingers, all-times zingers that he can use as micro quotes for his, maybe he wants to use anchor and he'll take some of the audio from here. Maybe he'll turn it into quote cards. Maybe I'll say one of the best things I've ever said. And that becomes a gateway drug to the other A-listers that want to do this show, because they're like, "Oh, Jordan must be able to extract great stuff from—" I don't know, but I can tell you my mental energy level, like my workout this morning before this interview, even Mike was like, "Man," and I'm like, "Yeah, man, I need to deliver. I think today, Jordan and I produce one of the best singular episode podcasts in our genre ever.
[00:15:08] Jordan Harbinger: I'll take it. And I've got plenty to throw at ya. I know you can rock it. One of the questions that I get all the time that I can't answer because I just don't know the answer, when do we quit if something isn't working? There's this whole idea, "Never stop until you win." And then there's this whole, "Yo, this isn't working, this ain't working. It never we'll cut your losses and run.
[00:15:30] Gary Vaynerchuk: I shut down VaynerLive, our live events division. I shut down VaynerSampling, our sampling division. I'm about to integrate my Grape Story, influencer marketing business, separate business, into VaynerMedia, media's division, human media. Once we ran a social network called Cork'd. I helped co-found a developer designer community called Forest. I started another video blog where I was the producer half owner called Obsessed TV. I did DailyGrape for only 84 episodes. After I finished 1000 episodes of Wine Library TV. I stopped sh*t all the time and nobody and, I mean, nobody is more tenacious to me. Like if I get into a fight to the death, I would literally die with the most effort you've ever seen. If I'm down 20 to zero in a pickup game to 21, I'm literally yelling at my four other homeys and saying, "Guys, I'm not joking. I think we can run off 22 street.
[00:16:21] Like I've got nothing but tenacity; however, energy and time are your biggest assets. Not the money, it's the energy and time. So I would say that there's a balance. Everybody's got their own internal guiding light. What I want to do here and why I just ranted seven or eight of nine, my recent failures, what I call my micro failures, not my macro failure, is outside of like, you go into debt out of business and you have to get a job. Outside of like, you get a divorce if you didn't want to. Outside of the death blow, outside of the death blow, you always fight if there is a death blow, but if it is just a micro loss, if it is just kind of like mortal combat or something, if it just takes out half your energy or your arm just falls off and you didn't die, well, then you can let that happen. You've got accept micro losses. It's part of the game.
[00:17:08] You know, what's funny. This is an interesting time to talk about this because I've been using this analogy. And last night it played out real true. I compare entrepreneurship to UFC. In UFC, everybody's going to lose.
[00:17:19] Jordan Harbinger: Yes.
[00:17:20] Gary Vaynerchuk: Everybody. Last night, both favorites that we wanted to win lost, right? They lost. And so it just happens. You're going to lose. It's not boxing. It's not chess. UFC is very similar entrepreneurship. There's going to be losses along the way. Too many people are sitting right now are worried about what their mom and dad, what their girlfriend, what their homeys that told them not to do it and think when they've lost on the execution that they decided to do when they left their job and they don't want the shame amongst them. And I'm here to tell you that those people don't f*cking matter. They matter in life, but they don't matter in the arena of entrepreneurship because they don't get it. Because anybody that tells you to not do it is scared of it.
[00:18:01] Jordan Harbinger: Yes. I agree with that. I think when a lot of people are making a decision to quit — whenever anybody asks me this question, because like I said, I get it all the time and my answer seems to change a lot. It's always, "What are you most afraid of?" And very rarely is it like losing my house, it's usually like, "They're all counting on me," or like, "They don't think I can do it. And there's a part of me that just wants to prove them wrong." And it's like, "Okay, if that's the reason, eliminate that from your mind as much as possible because then we were just talking about ego." And you see people getting like a second mortgage on their house to show their ex-wife that they're not a loser, that's just a terrible calculation, but I understand it.
[00:18:37] Gary Vaynerchuk: One hundred percent and I understand it tremendously. And here's what I'll say one more time, "Win the marathon and lose the sprints." I mean, it's very simple, right? Like it's all the cliche stuff. "Be willing to lose battles, win wars," right?
[00:18:52] Jordan Harbinger: Right.
[00:18:53] Gary Vaynerchuk: Like have three business failures, you know, you've gone from a nice apartment to a worse apartment. Now, you live in a rental studio. Now, you live in a trailer, but then you build a $10-million business, you won. You won in a 17-year period. You just happen to lose in a three-month, three-year, five-year period, right? It's just about, how does it end, right? How does it end?
[00:19:13] I mean, by the way, Jordan, that's why I roll the way I roll, man. Like I'm not crippled by people thinking I'm full of sh*t or douchebag or too much ego when they first consume me because I know where they end up. I know that 50 percent of the people that are listening right now or 30 percent is probably true of the people that are listening now that know who I am started off not loving me.
[00:19:34] Jordan Harbinger: I am one of those people. I'll tell you. I'll admit it.
[00:19:36] Gary Vaynerchuk: Wait a minute. I didn't know that. I'm excited because that works out nicely.
[00:19:39] Jordan Harbinger: It does.
[00:19:40] Gary Vaynerchuk: Tell me where you first consumed me. I go to guarantee it was in a public forum because I'm batting a thousand if I meet you in a private forum, because I'm a different kind of energy in that sector. Do you know?
[00:19:51] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I do. I do my friend Poss who's a fan of the show is this Thai guy. And he's like, "Oh, I know Gary Vaynerchuk because we talk on Twitter," and I was like, "Whatever, that guy talks to everybody on Twitter." You know, I was like, "I don't like wine. This is stupid." And I watched an episode of Wine Library and I was kind of like, "Oh, he's funny. I liked that he said the wine tastes like racquetballs because that's what all wine for me tastes like some version of rubber things that you don't want to eat." And then we did an interview. It was one of our prior first or second year podcasting in your office and you were really nice. And I thought, "Okay, he's a really nice guy personally, but still there's just something about him that's a little off, I don't know. Maybe I don't believe that he believes what he's doing." And then I followed your stuff for a while. And I was like, "He clearly really believes what he's saying. So I admire that, but I'm still not fully interested in a lot of this stuff." And then I saw the book and I was like, "There's a whole chapter that just says care. This is lazy. I'm not sure about this guy." And I slowly came around, but it took like seven years or something. I'm stubborn.
[00:20:48] Gary Vaynerchuk: Well, yeah, for everybody listening that doesn't know the care chapter was in Crush It. I mean, that's 2009.
[00:20:54] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. So this, what? Seven years later.
[00:20:56] Gary Vaynerchuk: And you know, what's so funny? It's so funny when one's mindset is in a certain place, how they decide to figure something out. No joke. And this is going to make you laugh, Jordan. The number one thing in my life that I've been emailed about over the last decade is chapter nine of Crush It, one word, care.
[00:21:13] Jordan Harbinger: Really?
[00:21:14] Gary Vaynerchuk: Yes, the number one thing, not the web 2.0 talk that put me on the map, Smurf it up, you know, stop watching f*cking Lost, not the real recent run of a lot of big hits like the Monday morning thing where you could have been a bus, f*ck you Monday, or the six minutes for next 60 years, two things that have gone, quote-unquote, "viral" for me, not DailyVee which has been a game changer for me, these 19 episodes of this blog, not appearances on TV, not my first Conan appearance, not Twitter and Facebook going public after I said they would, not the Snapchat phenomenon that's happening for me right now. Like getting way too much credit for something I don't deserve of like, "Oh, you got people on Snapchat." It has been that chapter, that word, and people literally emailing me saying, "I've been selling $900 eBooks. I'm a scum bucket. I'm selling supplements that I have no idea what's in there. I'm a scum bucket. And something about that chapter, that word f*cked with my head and you've changed my business. This is what's happened over the last 18 months," that chapter, that word.
[00:22:12] And you going into the mentality of like cynicism, which is what you're referring to.
[00:22:16] Jordan Harbinger: Yes.
[00:22:17] Gary Vaynerchuk: Which by the way, Jordan, you have to understand. Here's why it never bothers me. I agree with your cynicism. I know that I'm unusual. I know that most people that sell good are full of sh*t. I know that people haven't quantified that I didn't talk to the world until I was 30 years old and had already built a $50-million business. And that was wine. And I didn't talk to the world about business or motivation or hoopla or marketing until I was 34 years old. And had already built a $60-million business and had already invested in Twitter and Facebook. Jordan, I was 34 years old and an accomplished businessman before I came out and became this guy that maybe pedaled things that the world would be cynical too. And I knew that my personality and my bravado and my showmanship would disguise my very practical, very tangible, very meat and potatoes kind of accomplishments. And that's why I know I'm different. Most people that sell what I sell, sell it out of the gate because they're taught by a motivational coach to sell motivation to other people yet they've never accomplished anything in their lives.
[00:23:34] Jordan Harbinger: You're listening to The Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest Gary Vaynerchuk. We'll be right back.
[00:23:40] This episode is sponsored in part by LifeLock. If you're among the majority who use the same password on multiple accounts, you're going to want to know about credential stuffing to cyberattack, you should understand. Credential stuffing is when cybercriminals get your username and password off the dark web, and then try to gain access to other accounts, steal your private information and use it for nefarious purposes. It's important to understand how cybercrime and identity theft are affecting our lives. Every day, we put our information at risk on the Internet and in an instant, a cybercriminal could steal what's yours, harm your finances, your credit, and worse, your reputation. That's why there's LifeLock. LifeLock helps detect a wide range of identity threats, like your social security number for sale on the dark web. If they detect your information has potentially been compromised, they'll say I send you an alert.
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[00:25:58] Jordan Harbinger: Thank you so much for listening to and supporting the show. Now I know that a lot of you hear these codes and you're running your jog and we put them all in one place, jordanharbinger.com/deals. We recently redid the page. Please consider supporting those who make this show possible.
[00:26:13] And don't forget, we've got worksheets for many of the episodes. If you want some of the drills and exercises talked about during these shows, they're all in one easy place. And that link is in the show notes at jordanharbinger.com/podcast.
[00:26:25] Now back to Gary Vaynerchuk.
[00:26:28] To be clear, it didn't really take me seven years to come around. I liked it well before that. And it's funny because now people who have the exact same comments that I do where they're like, "Oh, this freaking loud mouth guy." I'm like, "No, no, no. Trust me." And I find myself saying exactly what somebody else would have said to me probably five years ago when I said those things. And it's funny because like many wines, it's an acquired taste. You know, you got to get past the stuff that bugs you. And a lot of people love the energy up to 11 and stuff. At first though, I just thought he's using that to overcompensate for a lack of whatever. And now I just realize you're really excited about everything.
[00:27:03] Gary Vaynerchuk: Listen, man, I knew it's funny. It's funny for my grammar school and high school and like other people, because they remember when there was no camera on and I get these emails all the time and it makes me feel good because it does help me almost remind myself. Because you know, what's funny. I think the reason I really can pull it off is I'm more cynical about myself than anybody outside of me.
[00:27:23] Jordan Harbinger: I believe that.
[00:27:24] Gary Vaynerchuk: Like there's times I brush my teeth on a Wednesday, August 4th, and I'm like, this is literally weird sh*t. I'm looking at that person. I'm like, "Hey, don't forget, like don't become a f*cking caricature of yourself, f*ck face. You came from nothing. You're not sh*t. You die tomorrow, nobody gives a f*ck. Like these are real talks I have with myself.
[00:27:40] Jordan Harbinger: I'm sure.
[00:27:41] Gary Vaynerchuk: Yet, meanwhile, I equally more than anybody thinking that I'm going to end up all time. Like Jordan, I literally sit here with you right now and there's nothing, zero doubt in my mind that I'm the guy of this generation.
[00:27:53] Jordan Harbinger: That's a strong belief system.
[00:27:55] Gary Vaynerchuk: Especially when right now anybody listening knows that I'm dramatically behind Zucks or Travis or Elon Musk, or, you know, even from a kind of a personal brand standpoint to Ferris or Tony Robbins or Tony Hsieh, and from a business, like financial, like hundreds of thousands of people who've made more money already, but I know what I'm doing. If I pull off what I think I've got in me, I think it's a more hyper successful version of both ends of a Richard Branson, both financially and impact on.
[00:28:26] Jordan Harbinger: I hope so that would be really cool. People download a lot more of these interviews. So they'll be looking for them at that point. They still are. They already have.
[00:28:33] Gary Vaynerchuk: You know, what's funny about that. It's funny how your brain thinks. I think about that sh*t too, though. That's funny you just said that, "You know what? I'm going to make you happy right now. And I want everybody here to speak because I think it's going to make them understand how I think about the world." That statement is probably the single thing that I've heard come out of your mouth or on public or on a tweet or anything. I just liked you more than I ever have before on any move, because it means that you're thinking about the marathon. You're able to project that in 29 years. This is what I'm talking about, by the way, I'm 40 years old, like I'm 40.
[00:29:01] Jordan Harbinger: Man.
[00:29:02] Gary Vaynerchuk: Look in 20 years, I'll be 60. And you know, I feel good about that. That's a long time.
[00:29:06] Jordan Harbinger: You have a lot left in the tank at 60. I can make that prediction about you.
[00:29:09] Gary Vaynerchuk: A lot. And so listen, I've been right about so many things when I bet on the virtual reality Facebook. And I own 10 percent and I'm Peter Thiel. For people that don't know Peter Thiel own 10 percent of Facebook, he made a lot of money in PayPal, but obviously he made a lot more money with the Facebook bet. I'm convinced I'm going to make that kind of bet in my investing world. I'm going to build VaynerMedia into a billion dollar company. VaynerMedia has gone from four to 100 million in revenue, literally in four years.
[00:29:34] That's ridiculous agencies sell for two to three times revenue. So right now people don't get it. People are stupid, Jordan. People Google my network. That's the second biggest search term for me. There's some cockamamie website that puts my network at 10 million.
[00:29:47] Jordan Harbinger: I saw that.
[00:29:48] Gary Vaynerchuk: And that's what people think it is.
[00:29:50] Jordan Harbinger: I looked it up at thrive because I was like, "Is that accurate?" And then 10 minutes later, you told us about VaynerMedia and it made me wonder how they calculate those things. But it made me feel a little bit better about myself for a minute. I'll give you that.
[00:30:02] Gary Vaynerchuk: I mean, for example, I don't want to go here, but I want to teach people like how stupid things you read on the Internet. I'm going to make more than $10 million this year, like as my income. Like it's so stupid. Like, all you have to do is look up Wine Library's property value. Like the property that my wine business sits on is worth more than that. So people are not smart about like things. People like here, hucksters that claim they make that their net worth is 25 million. And they're like, "See, he's better than Gary Vee." And I'm like, "You're a f*cking idiot. This guy is selling infomercial products. Like you're an idiot," and there's a million of them. There's so many people that don't get it. Don't understand the game.
[00:30:37] And so for me, I like that you're thinking 25 years out because you're right. Because you're damn f*cking right. These two interviews that we've done, you're going to get a sh*t load more listens in 2031 than you are right now. When everybody wakes up one morning and whatever the Business Insider or Wall Street Journal or whatever the f*ck we're listening to starts with today, "Virtual Virtual sold for $47 billion. Investor Gary Vaynerchuk made a wise bet eight years ago and own 10 percent. Big day for him. Guess, he's going to buy the jets after all." When that f*cking day happens, people are going to Google or whatever the f*ck they're doing then, they're going to find this and they'll listen to every f*cking word.
[00:31:15] And you know what, let me actually take myself out of this moment and put myself in 20 years from now. Hey everybody. That's right. Uh-huh, Exactly, I always knew it because when you understand yourself and you deploy, self-awareness, you get to navigate at a surgical level and that's how you win. Whether you're doing what I'm doing, or you become the best parent of all time, or the greatest policymaker or the greatest nonprofit, you know, fundraiser or whatever you want to achieve in your life, it is nothing but being self-aware and deploying all your energy against it. Just like LeBron James did, just like Whitney Houston did, and just like every great entrepreneur did.
[00:31:49] Jordan Harbinger: I love that. I think there's going to be people who email and go, "I turn it off when he started talking about all of this stuff," and it'll be like the things you just said in the last three minutes, for sure.
[00:31:59] Gary Vaynerchuk: I truly hope not. And I truly think that the people that do that, if you forward them to me, so I can have a five-minute one-on-one conversation, I would do that. Because anybody that was scared of what I just said is wired for failure in the short term.
[00:32:14] Jordan Harbinger: The long-term marathon theory, and you've mentioned this a lot. I think about it all the time, because a lot of people go, "You know, you should start charging for the episodes of this. There's premium content you can do now. Oh, you can have people sponsor the show with recurring income." And they don't understand the strategy because I'm thinking about, "All right, how do I become the next Larry King, only a little bit more dynamic and no suspenders?" You know, I'm thinking of that kind of thing. And most people are not interested in that. They're trying to think about how they can buy a Ferrari Enzo in the next two years or one year or whatever.
[00:32:50] Gary Vaynerchuk: Jordan, you what's even scarier? So that's all right, next. They're not even thinking about buying the Ferrari. They're thinking about how do I rent the Ferrari, take a picture and put it on Instagram and make people think that I'm a winner and then leverage that. It's even worse.
[00:33:02] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, you're right. That's even more sort of meta.
[00:33:04] Gary Vaynerchuk: That's 90 percent of it. You know, it, we know what we're circled around with. That's 90 percent of it. If they actually wanted to do the behavior to buy the Ferrari, I mean more excited. It's not even that. It's like, literally not even that. It's, "How do I arbitrage renting the Ferrari? I'm going to rent a baby giraffe. I'm going to get some models or strippers from Vegas in the shot. I'm going to put it on Insta. People are going to think I'm living the lifestyle. I'm an arbitrage that, and I'm either going to sell them on how to get there. And even though I didn't or some other horse sh*t."
[00:33:35] Jordan Harbinger: It's all about those baby giraffes.
[00:33:37] Gary Vaynerchuk: Yes it is.
[00:33:38] Jordan Harbinger: I don't know where that came from. I don't know if you had that in the can or if it just popped in your head.
[00:33:42] Gary Vaynerchuk: No, I think I saw some picture along the way. I don't know it was a Bilzerian party or some horsesh*t, but like there was a baby f*cking giraffe that somebody was holding. I was just like, this sh*t is taking it — it's one thing to get your buddy to take his money out of the bank and put on a bed in a hotel room, a hundred thousand, take a picture and then put it back in the bank and go that way. It's another thing to rent a big time, watch for the day and, you know, do that. It's another thing to spend a couple gee to rent a big time car, take a picture and act like you bought it. It's a whole nother f*cking thing to put a baby giraffe in your photo.
[00:34:11] Jordan Harbinger: That is the next level of showmanship, for sure. This does lead into an interesting question. How do you know if you're an entrepreneur in the first place? Because I think a lot of people are more interested in faking it. Do you think people are hard wired for this or is it developed over time?
[00:34:25] Gary Vaynerchuk: I think the winning entrepreneur and what I say by the winning entrepreneur is somebody could amass a million dollars, I think is an outrageous winner. And I would say even 500 thousands. Like somebody who can really do it and live a top five percent lifestyle on their own terms and their own business. I think that's hardwired. I do think that people can become the best version of an entrepreneur of themselves by studying, by putting themselves out there by learning their craft. But I think of it the same way I think about athletics. I really do. Jordan, do I think I can become a very good hockey player, even though I've never learned how to ice skate. The answer is yes.
[00:35:00] Jordan Harbinger: Really?
[00:35:01] Gary Vaynerchuk: Do I think I could become somebody that could ever be anything more than a guy who could be solid in a Rec League. Absolutely not.
[00:35:09] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. I was like, "You got a long way to go if you're going to be in the NHL."
[00:35:12] Gary Vaynerchuk: So that's the problem and that's where your head went. Everybody listening, everybody reading, all this stuff, everybody thinks they're going to be on the Pantheon of like a millionaire. Do you know how hard it is to be a millionaire? You know what the data is?
[00:35:21] Jordan Harbinger: What is the data? Now, I never looked at it actually.
[00:35:23] Gary Vaynerchuk: The top one percent in the United States makes $428,000 a year.
[00:35:29] Jordan Harbinger: And that's across all age groups?
[00:35:30] Gary Vaynerchuk: By the way, that's your gross income, of just your gross income, not your net.
[00:35:36] Jordan Harbinger: Right. And this is across all age groups because it's different for 18 to 34 34 to 45 or whatever.
[00:35:42] Gary Vaynerchuk: Yeah, this is the US tax return people, right? Do you know hard that is?
[00:35:48] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I actually.
[00:35:50] Gary Vaynerchuk: I mean, do you know how crazy that is? Like, literally I'm doing a CNN money calculator. Here we go. 400,000 a year. If you make 400,000 a year, you were better than 99 percent of the rest of America. I made $400,000 in two talks.
[00:36:05] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, those are great speaking fee.
[00:36:07] Gary Vaynerchuk: Guys, this is math. Do you know what happens when you're the top one percent basketball player or singer or surfer or anything? And so what? Because you're going to read one of my f*cking books and listen to this podcast and go to a f*cking class, you all of a sudden are going to become that. It's ludicrous. Talent is absolutely part of the equation of being a big time entrepreneur..
[00:36:29] Jordan Harbinger: I think there's an element as well of steeling yourself to criticism. And this is from the book you say, "If you want to be an entrepreneur, if that's what you really, really want, you cannot give a sh*t about what other people think of you. Not even your parents. I won't lie. People will criticize you. They will say mean things. Maybe even hateful things often, because they're jealous that you had the guts to get out there and do your thing, or because they love you very much and are scared for you. And that's okay. If you truly trust and believe in yourself, you will learn to ignore them and they will learn to accept your decisions."
[00:37:00] Gary Vaynerchuk: I mean, I was told I was a straight loser from first grade to 12th grade because it was a sh*t student.
[00:37:05] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. You got terrible grades growing up — what did your hardworking parents think about that one, by the way? Because it seems antithetical to be a Jewish immigrant and a terrible student, and yet have a really great work ethic and it kind of makes me think something else was going on all along. Did you know early that you weren't cut out for the traditional path?
[00:37:21] Gary Vaynerchuk: By fourth grade, I started communicating with my mom and dad, mainly my mom, I was scared sh*t with my dad. By fourth grade, I was saying, "Look, I'm a different, I'm going to sell stuff. I'm a businessman. I used to call myself a businessman, the word entrepreneur wasn't in the lexicon. You know what? I was unwavering. My mom would slap me. Yes, European mothers punched in the face. My mom would punish me. No TV, no Nintendo. You have to understand. I was like, that's scary fighter that you would like punch as hard as you can. And they would just like spit the blood out on the side and then look you dead back in the face, you know? Like that's who I was and that's who I am. Like, I just won't wait her. Like I just have always been very, very, very comfortable in the fact that I felt like I got parented properly. I got the right DNA. I had the right skills. I knew how this was all going to end. I knew it from a very young age, my teachers would tell me I was a loser.
[00:38:18] I would be polite because my mom taught me to, but I would in my head say, "You're a f*cking loser." And I would say, "I'm going to show you, I'm going to stick it in your f*cking face." And so the other thing is — Jordan, you know, what's interesting. I've spent some time with myself. This is me talking to myself in the last year of, "Am I cursing and being polarizing on purpose because I actually get motivated by people underestimating me and neglecting me and saying, I'm not good. Is that my motivator?" You know, Mike, this morning goes, "I'd like you to get six reps here." And I got a lot of sleep last night and I'm really been on point. And I was like, "F*ck you, Mike." And I got seven, right? And it was like, it was hard, what I was doing. But I don't think if he said, "Let me get the six here. Like let's try to get six here. I don't think you'd get seven." I need the adversity. That's why I love being a Jets fan, Jordan. I love the losing.
[00:39:05] And so weirdly, I'm asking myself, "Hey man, are you sabotaging yourself in front of people because you want them to underestimate you because you love the 'Aha, I told you so. Got you. I knew you'd come around.'" Like, is there a vanity? And by the way, I'm not proud of this trait. Like it's not a very noble thing to kind of sandbag yourself because you get off on people underestimating you and then you're stunning them.
[00:39:29] Jordan Harbinger: Right. It doesn't seem like it would motivate a lot of people. It could demotivate a lot of people.
[00:39:35] Gary Vaynerchuk: That's right. People I think go the other way, right? And I love losing more than winning. I'm just built that way. And I don't really even know what that is and I'm not educated super well. And I'm sure there's a bunch of people right now that completely understand this. And when took anthropology classes or understood humanity or understand psychology, like, I'm sure it's very basic, but like I built that way, man. I love the journey. I can't lose this game because it's the hunt, right? I love the hunt. Like I love the process of trying to buy the New York Jets. I'll be fine if I don't like, I'm so scared for all my friends who like at 80 and 90 and 70 and they're like, "Ooh man, sorry." They won't understand. Like I want it. Yes I do. But it's the hunt that gets me off.
[00:40:15] Jordan Harbinger: You obviously have a super competitive instinct. Would you agree with that?
[00:40:18] Gary Vaynerchuk: I'm the worst version of who I am as a human, is at sporting events. I'm a really bad guy. I'm a disrespectful, I'm way more alpha than I am on stage and public, as some of you could not imagine. I get into a fight verbally. I'm willing to get physical. I'm disrespectful to kids. I curse heavily in front of four and five and seven-year-old kids, even when the parents turn around and say to me, "Hey man." And I'm like, "Hey man, nothing, f*ck face, it's a football f*cking game." Like I get crazy.
[00:40:48] Jordan Harbinger: That's insane.
[00:40:49] Gary Vaynerchuk: And I'm not proud of it. I'm proud of myself in every place I am, even in the cursing on stage, even in the ego of certain moments, including parts of this interview. I feel proud because I know it comes from a good place. I am not, officially on record, I am not happy with who I am at sporting events. It is the worst version of myself. It is the place where I can't control my emotion. Because unlike business and real life where I'm in control, I'm not in control of Carmelo Anthony or Brandon Marshall, yet I care so much.
[00:41:20] Jordan Harbinger: Well you'll fit right in when you buy the jets, yelling and screaming on the sidelines. I'm asking this because at some level — and correct me if I'm wrong because I'm imputing this to you. Is there a little resentment — or maybe that's not the right word. When you see someone in business, that's a little bit ahead of you. I'm not saying you don't learn from them or anything.
[00:41:36] Gary Vaynerchuk: No, I'm in a good place with that. I'm so happy for everybody that's winning. You couldn't imagine. I'll tell you why. I believe in meritocracy and I believe in marketplace dynamics. And if that person has been able to make the right decisions, they deserve it. I do not feel that anybody on earth is winning at my expense.
[00:41:54] Jordan Harbinger: That is a great answer because honestly, I wasn't sure what to expect there. Do you feel like other people winning helps drive you forward because they're paving the way?
[00:42:02] Gary Vaynerchuk: Absolutely. I mean, I think of Chris Sacca and I think of Travis, these are my contemporaries five, six years ago, and they've gone to billion in their status in a couple of great decisions.
[00:42:11] Jordan Harbinger: Travis Kalanick, CEO of Uber.
[00:42:13] Gary Vaynerchuk: That's right, and I'm pumped. I mean, you couldn't imagine how I feel about them. Tim Ferris, I think one of the great personal brands in this space, like nothing makes me happier than his winning and I want him to become the biggest. I don't think anybody can eat up all the success, not even remotely close, especially people I know, and then even people I don't know, but I know from afar. As long as people are winning in an ethical way and aren't stealing or cheating or ripping off somebody, I'm very, very happy for them even if they are directly in my genre.
[00:42:46] There's a wine startup in Australia. That's crushing directly in my industry, I'm pumped for them. Even like local stores, like Gary's Wine and Liquor, which is ironically my name, Gary's Wine and Marketplace, which is the biggest wine library competitor in New Jersey. Some people think I own it because it's Gary's.
[00:43:01] Jordan Harbinger: Right.
[00:43:02] Gary Vaynerchuk: A guy, Gary Fish. I have a lot of love for him. I have respect for him. I've watched him execute for 30 years and he's done a great job and he deserves all his success even though every dollar he makes comes out of Wine Library's expense. I love meritocracy, capitalism, and marketplace dynamics. More than I like my own vested interest.
[00:43:20] Jordan Harbinger: And you were born in the communist country.
[00:43:22] Gary Vaynerchuk: And that to me is f*cking ironic.
[00:43:25] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:43:25] Gary Vaynerchuk: And honestly, these are the contradictions that confuse people about me, but these are my truths and they will play out over the next 50 years to solidify my place wherever I deserve to be in the entrepreneurial lexicon.
[00:43:42] Jordan Harbinger: How keep the competitive instinct from affecting your personal and your familial relationships? Because you could drive your family and friends nuts trying to compete with them all the time. Do you turn it off? Do you curb it some how?
[00:43:54] Gary Vaynerchuk: Yeah. I mean, I'm competitive. I'm very competitive with my dad. I'm very competitive with my brother. I'm competitive with everybody. Yes, but I definitely act differently in human world than I do when I put on my jersey every day, which is business world, you know?
[00:44:07] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Okay. I can see that it's better to get in a fight over these categories than it is over what you're going to do with your employee pension plan or something that could break the ship.
[00:44:15] Gary Vaynerchuk: Me and AJ have built a hundred-million-dollar-revenue business in five minutes and have had bigger fights on the basketball court and on the board game court that any day remotely on business.
[00:44:25] Jordan Harbinger: It makes sense that you galvanize to be on the same team when it actually counts. And the competitive brotherly kind of BS comes out on the driveway.
[00:44:34] Gary Vaynerchuk: Yeah. And by the way, we're on the other side of each other in that scenario, but in VaynerMedia, we're on the same team.
[00:44:39] Jordan Harbinger: Right, exactly. You talk in the book about plan A, plan B, but I'm wondering if you have a plan B, does that mean at some level you're setting yourself up for failure? Should you never have a plan B because you're super confident in plan A?
[00:44:53] Gary Vaynerchuk: I'm a big fan of plan B, plan C, plan D and people are always mad at me for that. They're like, "You know Gary, there's that quote, if you have a plan B, you're set up for failure." I'm like, "No, if you have plan B, you're set up for practicality." Like if you truly don't have a plan B, like if you truly don't, well, that can get really dangerous. That can get into suicide, that can get into divorce, that can get into losing your family. That can get into depression.
[00:45:15] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:45:15] Gary Vaynerchuk: Like my current plan B is the Gary Vee brand, not Gary Vaynerchuk, the entrepreneur and operator, right?
[00:45:23] Jordan Harbinger: Yes.
[00:45:23] Gary Vaynerchuk: Like I would tell you why I'm doing this book, maybe more than anything. Deep, deep, deep down is it's my plan B. My plan B is that I talk about burning out as an operator, what I did, how I built a hundred-million-dollar businesses. Why did I stop? Because either I failed or I got burnt out. But I have enough of an audience where, you know, maybe I talk about work-life balance or I obviously I've started taking care of my health, but I always thought that that could be a cliche thing four years ago.
[00:45:49] That's probably why I started getting serious about it. When I started having thoughts that I would have a heart attack at 46. And then that would be where my plan B would kick in. And that's what I would talk about, which is, "Hey, all the success in the world isn't worth your health." You know what the the things I did? I was like, "Wait a minute, I'm foreshadowing, let's get serious about my health." I mean, it's unbelievable, right this second, as I'm talking to you, I'm in the best shape of my life.
[00:46:11] Jordan Harbinger: You can tell. You look good, by the way.
[00:46:13] Gary Vaynerchuk: I appreciate it. And it's crazy. I see it a lot because I'm producing so much video content and they're doing a bunch of mashups. And I was like, damn, I didn't think I looked bad. I was small frame. I wasn't obviously overweight. My weight was proportioned, but I mean, I look way different than I did 24 months ago, you know? And I feel different and it's great. Anyway, I don't want to get off to a tangent. We don't have a lot of time. I want to get some more info in here.
[00:46:34] Plan B is the Gary Vee brand. I can make three to five million dollars a year speaking if I had to, even with a loss on my resume.
[00:46:41] Jordan Harbinger: Yes. How do we balance the hunger required to achieve plan A while not taking too much comfort in plan B?
[00:46:48] Gary Vaynerchuk: Again, it's emotional intelligence shortened by knowing that's the case. I know deep down I have that plan B, but it's always plan A or bust. So it's like having it, but not relying on it.
[00:47:02] Jordan Harbinger: This is The Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest Gary Vaynerchuk. We'll be right back.
[00:47:06] This episode is sponsored in part by Glenfiddich. Glenfiddich breaks from the single malt scotch whisky norm, and helps redefine what it means to be rich. A lot of us get bogged down in material success. The currency of the new rich is getting more time and enjoyment out of what we've already got. Now, Gary Vaynerchuk, he's a very successful guy. There's kind of no ifs and/or buts about it, right? The guy flies a jet to sit in a box and look at the games, but he's constantly underlining the value of family, work, the process. You've heard him say things like I secretly wish I could lose it all so that I could rebuild it. Now, I've done that. I wouldn't recommend that, but you really can see how, if you have your head on straight and you're loving the work, you're loving the process, that is what makes you rich. Right? Okay, paying your bills. Got it. But if you are really enjoying the crap out of what you're doing and you're manic about it, like some people we know. That for many of us is true wealth. Thanks to Glenfiddich for making this episode possible.
[00:48:01] Jen Harbinger: Skillfully crafted, enjoy responsibly. Glenfiddich 2021 imported by William Grant and Sons Inc. New York, New York.
[00:48:08] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by Fruit of the Loom. It's that time of year to get your loved ones what they really need. Hint, not a snow globe, not a pair of mistletoe earrings. This season, show them you care with underwear from Fruit of the Loom. Take gifts from "oh no," to "how'd you know," with underwear for her — and you can tell who wrote this. From unbearable holiday ties to the totally wearable cools zone boxer briefs, give the kids something they'll use every day. Well, you really hope that they will, boys and girls cotton underwear. And instead of another ugly sweater that they won't want to put on, give them something they won't want to take off like their ever soft sweatshirt. Pretty much, no matter who you are, underwear is something just about everyone needs. So before you saddle your loved ones with just another holiday gift, look into your heart and remember their bottoms. Show you care this holiday season by going to fruit.com.
[00:48:54] This episode is also sponsored in part by Chinet. Chinet is a people-focused brand disguised as a premium disposable tableware brand. Chinet prides themselves on being part of authentic human connections and playing an important role in togetherness. They've been a part of American culture for over 90 years, providing durable plates, cups, cutlery, napkins, and table covers. Chinet is the go-to brand for cookouts, holidays, birthdays game nights, baby showers, and more. Chinet brand believes not only that everyone should have a place around the table, but that everyone should be welcomed with open arms and a full cup. Chinet Classic, Chinet Crystal, and Chinet Comfort products are all made in the USA with at least 80 percent recycled materials. Chinet brands products can handle anything from the sauciest ribs to the most generous slices of cake. Made to be microwave safe and leftovers' best friend. Easy cleanup, environmentally conscious. Great for the upcoming holiday gatherings and perfect for all of life's get-togethers. Visit mychinet.com to find out more.
[00:49:47] And now for the rest of my conversation with Gary Vaynerchuk.
[00:49:52] Because I think a lot of people fail because they do 50/50, they do 80/20 even. And there's heat energy being sort of tossed out, lost in the equation.
[00:50:00] Gary Vaynerchuk: I have a million dollars in a bank account that I make pretend doesn't exist.
[00:50:05] Jordan Harbinger: Just in case.
[00:50:06] Gary Vaynerchuk: That's like my version of what you just asked. I know it's there. I like literally had to recall it right now. It's the first time I've thought about it in 11 months.
[00:50:13] Jordan Harbinger: What do you think separates the people who take your information and act on it versus people who simply find a motivation in it?
[00:50:21] Gary Vaynerchuk: The real talent gene of both work ethic, desire, and the capability to actually pull it off. I think the people that listen to me and will never do anything about it, use me as a comfort and escapism, like people use television or sports or music, and I think that's great. I'm happy about that, and I actually think it provides value. I think for a lot of people — see, everybody is half glass empty and I'm half glass full. Let me explain. I think those people, a lot of people in my world — you know, who I'm talking about the 50 people if they got together, talk about it, would say, "Ugh, those people," right? I don't, I yell at them sometimes. I go, "You're such an assh*le. Do you understand how much value you're bringing to that person? You're their Tonight Show, you're their Zelda, you're their New York Jets, you're their Leonardo DiCaprio, you're their Run-D.M.C." When they're consuming you, they don't have to think about what they're in tune to, which is, "Sh*t. I'm not going to pull this off and I'm not happy about it." You're their escape is and you're providing them real value because life is hard and complicated. And for those 30 minutes during the AskGaryVee Show or DailyVee or the hour of the Jordan podcast, like you're providing them comfort and value, and that's very powerful. And then for a smaller group, you're letting the motivation in the blueprint that they're going to go out and change your life.
[00:51:40] Jordan Harbinger: And you draw the distinction between being a student and being a practitioner. What is the difference in your opinion between those two things?
[00:51:48] Gary Vaynerchuk: The 99 percent of sh*t that everybody in social media, marketing, and branding and content say everyday on social media that I read and I laugh including some of the biggest names in the game because they actually have never used a Snapchat geofilter. They've never run hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars, if not tens of thousands of dollars in Facebook ads, yet they have very strong opinions about Facebook advertising. The people that write articles for Forbes or Fortune or HuffPost that are contradiction to the common conversation, just to grab the headline, yet, their logic makes no sense and it proves they don't never use Periscope or Facebook Live or a Twitter GeoAd. It's a difference between all the things I've been saying about Snapchat and the 50 hucksters that have been following me very carefully, packaged up all my quotes and headlines and a couple of others, and now sell a $300 ebook on how to use Snapchat.
[00:52:39] Jordan Harbinger: So there's no reading this stuff only doing is what it sounds like you're saying.
[00:52:43] Gary Vaynerchuk: You know, like everything else in worlds.
[00:52:44] Jordan Harbinger: Yes.
[00:52:45] Gary Vaynerchuk: You know, the way every athlete looks at every non-athlete when they have an opinion about it.
[00:52:50] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Every armchair quarterback.
[00:52:51] Gary Vaynerchuk: Oh, I mean, I've become very friendly with a lot of athletes because athletes now care about investing and care about personal brands on social media. So I've been in a sweet spot. As you can imagine, for a lot of people that are turned off by me, an enormous amount of kids that grew up in the ghetto and had nothing and became athletes, they love my business communication style versus others.
[00:53:10] Jordan Harbinger: Right.
[00:53:10] Gary Vaynerchuk: So I've made a lot of friends in that world and it is stunning. I would have never thought as a Monday morning quarterback, the level utter not the same, but like just pure and utter. Like they laugh at any of us that talk about stuff because we have no clue the seven days a week getting prepared for a sporting event on Sunday or the grind of an NBA schedule or what your life is like since you're the age of nine and being prepped to be a world-class athlete and they're right. I've become so like awaken by my own experiences in entrepreneurship.
[00:53:43] Jordan, do you know how pumped I am about DailyVee?
[00:53:46] Jordan Harbinger: I do not know, but I can only guess.
[00:53:49] Gary Vaynerchuk: Like, do you know how satisfying it is for people that like, you know very well and I mean like your actual friends who you have dinner with seven times a year, emailing you and saying, "F*ck, man, I thought I knew, but now that I think about it, that's right. We only see each other during these times because you're f*cking, really working, f*cking six to midnight every day, aren't you." I'm like, "Yeah, man, what do you think? You think I was lying to you? Like do you think I was trying to sell you something because it made me feel better?"
[00:54:17] Jordan Harbinger: What about your kids? You've got these little kids and you're teaching them these different skills. Are you trying to push them in the way to become entrepreneurs? What are you doing parent-wise to get this rocking and rolling? Because I can't see you pushing your kids in the direction to go work for GM in the HR department.
[00:54:32] Gary Vaynerchuk: You'd be stunned. This is another contradiction. I am going to do exactly what my mom did for me and my dad. I'm going to support — I could care less how they're wired or what they decided to do. I'm going to support it in a way, like you've never seen before. Meaning, look, when you have a really successful father or mother, here's what happens? You look at that mountain and you say, "I'm going to climb the sh*t out of that. And I'm going to f*cking prove the world wrong." For example, I would have been great with a dad that was a billionaire because I would have become a trillionaire because I love adversity. Right? Like, I love that everybody would've thought, "Daddy did it for me and daddy's better than me." And I would've been like, "F*ck you, daddy and the rest of the world," because that's who I am. Right?
[00:55:12] Jordan Harbinger: Well, yeah, we know that.
[00:55:13] Gary Vaynerchuk: But I think for my kids, they may do what 90 percent of kids do, which is they look at that mountain and they're like, "F*ck that." Or they look at that mountain and they feel guilty that they took private planes to the super bowl and they want to start a nonprofit or be an artist or bring other value to the world, like in a different way than business does. Right? So if my kids want to be a teacher, if my kids want to make statues in Iowa, if my kids want to be comedians, the only thing I won't let my kids do is spend daddy's money in a vain way that doesn't provide value to somebody else. But if they want to provide value to people in a way that means that they have to go work and be head of HR and GM, because that's what makes them happy. However, they react to the reality. I will support them as long as they're good human beings.
[00:55:58] Jordan Harbinger: As long as they don't buy baby giraffes.
[00:56:01] Gary Vaynerchuk: That's right, man. As long as I understand why they bought the baby giraffe.
[00:56:04] Jordan Harbinger: Right.
[00:56:04] Gary Vaynerchuk: If they can trick me into saying, "You know, dad, I'm doing this because at the end, I'm going to go, aha. See, this is all sh*t." Like, if I know what they're doing is trying to provide value to something or somebody, I'm in. If they're just f*cked with, because of the wealth that they were surrounded by or the notoriety — and they're starting to feel it a little bit because, you know, the last 18 months for my brand have been pretty intense, AskGaryVee and this DailyVee especially, and Snapchat have changed the amount of people that come up to me in public. I'm now at one to three people a day versus one person, every 30 days, only 18 months ago. Right? Because I've come back out, the show and my content has been on f*cking fire for the last 18 months after being fairly quiet for three years. Misha is noticing it, right? She's like, you know, she sees like people like getting excited and taking a selfie. And so it's going to be interesting, man. But what I can tell you is I'm going to support them a hundred percent.
[00:56:58] Jordan Harbinger: Now, it's true that you play basketball with your son Xander in the living room and he cries when you pick up the ball because he knows you're going to block him.
[00:57:05] Gary Vaynerchuk: Very good job. I'm not sure where you picked that up. I know I've talked about a little bit. Xander has not scored a basket on me yet.
[00:57:12] Jordan Harbinger: He's two, by the way, three.
[00:57:14] Gary Vaynerchuk: He's three years old. I would say that Xander is minimally not going to score for the next 10 years.
[00:57:21] Jordan Harbinger: Why do you block your three-year-old son and living in basketball? You never let him score. He cries.
[00:57:27] Gary Vaynerchuk: Because like I did it for AJ and he's one person and Xander may go the other way. But for now, until I realized I have to stop, I realized with AJ at six or seven, that I was doing the right thing. That it was getting him motivated. He was working on his left hand. He looked at adversity and decided to climb the mountain. If in five or six years or three years or two years, I see Xander dropping the ball and walking away and like leaving, it means that he doesn't have that gene. And then I will support him in a different way. But for now, I don't know, and this will be better if he wants to go that route.
[00:57:59] Jordan Harbinger: My prediction is one day he dunks on you. And it's the most proud day of your and his life at that time.
[00:58:05] Gary Vaynerchuk: When the AJ beat me on one-on-one, maybe he was 17, 18, 16, 19. I don't remember when there was an incredible feeling. Listen, accomplishing something in a true environment is the greatest feeling of life. And that's why I love business. You know what I love about business. Like for example, all these hucksters that I keep, I know you're doing these too. Again, just so everybody knows what I'm talking about, we're littered right now with marketers and coaches and experts that are just not back. They're hacking, they're hacking the system. They're not going to win. We've seen these guys and gals forever and yes — let's understand what winning is. Winning doesn't come just in the form of money. For example, everybody old cares way more about how they made their money versus how much they made.
[00:58:49] Jordan Harbinger: That's a good point. I have noticed that. I never really thought about it.
[00:58:53] Gary Vaynerchuk: And so I spent a lot of time with old people and I did in my early twenties and I've stopped because I think I got what I needed. I really wanted to understand that the way people that lived it, what did they think about? They thought about family time. They didn't care about money. They cared about being respected. They cared about the legacy they were leaving. And these were successful people, and just like old man McGee that was on my playground. You know, when I was a kid who like worked at Johnson & Johnson for 50 years. They cared about the right stuff, the stuff that's noble. And that's what I care about. Right now, some of those, they may be able to bang some hotter chicks. They may be able to make a couple more million bucks quicker, faster. I'm going to beat them in the long term. Nobody even knows who they are in 10 years. More importantly, they're going to have children who are going to be embarrassed about how their dad made their money.
[00:59:37] Do you know any wives? I know right now that I've husbands in whether it's MLM or like did something shady or dah, dah, dah, who literally don't tell other, like I see them in settings, there'll be a business networking thing. I watch these things. This is how I'm weird. I'll be talking to you, Jordan at some like business event and I'll be going through the motions, but I'll actually be paying attention to the conversation to the left of us, which is two wives.
[01:00:01] And one of the wives will say the other wife, like, "Oh, what does your husband do?" And I know the husband very well. I know exactly how he made his money, not good. And I hear the answer from the woman and it's f*cking embarrassment.
[01:00:13] Jordan Harbinger: Ugh.
[01:00:14] Gary Vaynerchuk: And there's nothing worse.
[01:00:15] Jordan Harbinger: You can't be that guy.
[01:00:17] Gary Vaynerchuk: I can't be that guy and other people can. They're wire differently. Moms will talk, do your thing. I don't judge you. I don't. I do not judge you. However, when you try to tell the young and impressionable or the old and desperate that this is the way to do it, f*ck you. That's why I'm loud now. And that's why I'll go on the offense. I won't throw you under the bus. I don't win by chopping down other people's trees. I'm just going to build the biggest tree and everybody's going to be like, look at that tree and I'm going to show them the right way to do it.
[01:00:45] Jordan Harbinger: Legacy is greater than currency.
[01:00:47] Gary Vaynerchuk: Forever, homie.
[01:00:48] Jordan Harbinger: You talk about playing in the white space, working around the system, not within the system. What is the white space and how do we find it?
[01:00:56] Gary Vaynerchuk: That's tough. So I think the white space right now for me clearly, this 45 minutes and 46 seconds, I know you edited, so I don't know exactly what the time is, but you know, my current white spaces, I'm going to be the purest bread, most honest, most noble entrepreneur in a world where I think we have the emergence of huckster entrepreneurs. That's my white space right now. This interview is literally my white space.
[01:01:18] Jordan Harbinger: Perfect.
[01:01:19] Gary Vaynerchuk: I'm going to write a $19 book that gives so much value, not because I just wanted to crank out a book, but I want to guilt everybody else into making better books for everybody because they're like, sh*t AskGaryVee was so good. I want, everybody's writing a business book. That's coming out this fall, next winter, next year to read this and be like, "Sh*t," and make a better book because it's better for the market, you know?
[01:01:39] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I do know. And I agree with raising the bar.
[01:01:42] Gary Vaynerchuk: The other way to find the white space is pay attention to what everybody's reacting to and become unbelievably cynical to it.
[01:01:48] Jordan Harbinger: What does that mean?
[01:01:49] Gary Vaynerchuk: It means if everybody's like, it's all about Snapchat, and I'm saying that, will then become cynical to it. When you become cynical, you've got to also be open to being right or wrong. You can't be blindly cynical. So you've got to poke, kind of what you did with me, Jordan, you poked and then eventually you said, "Okay, this is real," and you'll poke the next person. Poke what everybody's doing. Live streaming is the best. Okay. Poke, that means use it. That means watch 50 people use it, come up with your own opinion. Not because I say so. Not because everybody says so, right?
[01:02:20] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Right. So basically try it out. Poke, taste.
[01:02:24] Gary Vaynerchuk: Taste, taste. You know, like cronuts are delicious. Well, don't just say they're delicious because everybody's talking about them. Go eat one.
[01:02:31] Jordan Harbinger: Not too many cronuts but try a couple.
[01:02:33] Gary Vaynerchuk: Correct.
[01:02:34] Jordan Harbinger: All right.
[01:02:34] Gary Vaynerchuk: I'll give you a good one. I will never meditate. And meditation's about to become huge.
[01:02:39] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, absolutely.
[01:02:40] Gary Vaynerchuk: Meditation is going to become coffee and soul cycle in America in the next five years. And I'll never do it. Because I'm scared, it's going to f*ck with my brain. And I feel like my brain is perfect. So even though everybody says, it's great and everybody says, I need to. And everybody says, it's the best thing that ever happened to them. I know myself. So why would I just follow a little bit? So I'm going to use the white space.
[01:02:56] Jordan Harbinger: If it ain't broke, don't fix it. That's what I'm hearing right now.
[01:02:59] Gary Vaynerchuk: That's for sure.
[01:03:00] Jordan Harbinger: You have contact with tons of younger entrepreneurs. What's the difference between the way young entrepreneurs in their 20s and the older guys — and I put that in air quotes — in their 30s and 40s do business, what are the differences and what can we learn from each other?
[01:03:13] Gary Vaynerchuk: Your gift is your curse. 20-year-old entrepreneurs think anything's possible. And then they become overconfident and get caught by mistakes. It's also their gift. 30- to 40-year-old people tend to be more practical. They've learned from their strengths and the mistakes, and they don't take as big of risks. So every day I'm pulling in opposite directions of being 20 and 40. I try to keep challenging myself and do random crazy sh*t, like a daily vlog, or like who the f*ck knows, opening a Europe office, or just keep challenging myself in the offense. But I've learned from my other mistakes. You can't do everything you need to empower people, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.
[01:03:49] It's really a funny contradiction. The strength is the weakness, which is blind naivete and faith and bravado and optimism. And that can catch you. I also do think there's a lot of fake entrepreneurs right now because there's an entitlement that if you're in your 20s, you should be an entrepreneur because of Shark Tank, because of the Social Network movie, because of like the rockstar status of entrepreneurship. So there's a couple more 20 year olds in the game now that should be number threes and fours instead of number ones. And that's a little bit of a difference as well. Most 40 year olds were selling blow pops since they were in high school.
[01:04:21] Jordan Harbinger: Yes, absolutely. And they've seen a recession.
[01:04:24] Gary Vaynerchuk: Yes which helps.
[01:04:26] Jordan Harbinger: A lot of younger people haven't.
[01:04:27] Gary Vaynerchuk: That's right.
[01:04:28] Jordan Harbinger: You mentioned earlier, one of the best ways to go out of business is to make emotional decisions or get romantic about how you make your money or let your emotions get in the way at a task. What does that mean to get romantic about how you make your money? And can you give us some examples of emotional decision-making?
[01:04:44] Gary Vaynerchuk: Well, I'm glad you asked that question. I get to clarify it here. Being romantic about how you're making money, this is how I define it. It means that if you're successful right this minute, look at the way you're making your revenue and understand somebody's going to try to disrupt that. If you're at the top of your game — you know who should have invented Uber? Not Garrett Camp and Travis. The guy that owned the biggest cab fleet in the world.
[01:05:06] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. You would think.
[01:05:07] Gary Vaynerchuk: You know, who should have invented Airbnb? The Starwood group, not three entrepreneurs in San Francisco. You know, should have invented winelibrary.com? Sam's in Chicago or Zachary's or Sherry-Lehmann's or K&L the biggest liquor stores at the time.
[01:05:21] So when you're at the height of your game, you need to understand that people are going to stop you. You know, many people listening to you right now are making all their money on running quant, affiliate, arbitrage, Google AdWords, affiliate, marketing, other arbitrage ways. And it's mainly on desktop computer conversion and the whole world's going mobile and their numbers aren't as good as mobile. And they've only got 24 months of this fruitfulness?
[01:05:42] Jordan Harbinger: I don't know the answer to that, but I assume you do.
[01:05:45] Gary Vaynerchuk: I have intuition. I don't have the exact answer, but I know a lot of people are making their money on conversion-based marketing, when the marketing conversion based changes, landing page optimization changes when it goes from desktop to mobile.
[01:05:57] Jordan Harbinger: Let's go back to emotional decisions. You mentioned that in the book as well, examples of emotional decisions, can you give us an example of an emotional decision?
[01:06:05] Gary Vaynerchuk: I called a couple of taxi guys and said, Uber's coming. And they said, it'll never work. TV people that don't believe Netflix is really going to win, right? And right now TimeWarner and Comcast could be winning. They could be doing a much better job. Just like I can give you a million. I mean, podcasting is rolling right now, but here comes anchor. Could that disrupt you? Like you should be on anchor right now. I don't know. You, you need to constantly not believe in your own bullsh*t.
[01:06:30] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I agree with that. What do we do for the type of person that makes emotional decisions? Is there some way to stop ourselves from doing it? Is there a habit that can be cultivated or broken?
[01:06:39] Gary Vaynerchuk: I think that gets into a place where I don't understand. I think that goes to, you know, going to therapists, rewiring yourself. I don't understand that I can just social commentate and give examples. And then everybody has to make their own decision. You know, like I will myself to victory. I just mentally got my place into over a six-month period to fix my health that wasn't working for me for 38 years. But I can't sit here and be, I can't have the audacity to sit here and be like, "Hey, everybody mentally will yourself."
[01:07:07] Jordan Harbinger: Right.
[01:07:07] Gary Vaynerchuk: Everybody does it differently.
[01:07:09] Jordan Harbinger: Everybody does. Yeah. It's basically mental and emotional strength and it's tough. It's like getting back in shape. This is awesome. I know you got to run.
[01:07:16] Gary Vaynerchuk: Jordan, this is the best interview you ever had.
[01:07:19] Jordan Harbinger: I think it's a really damn good. I think the last one we did is pretty damn good though, too. So it might be tied.
[01:07:23] Gary Vaynerchuk: Alright, brother. Stay well.
[01:07:26] Jordan Harbinger: If you're looking for another episode of The Jordan Harbinger Show to sink your teeth into here's a trailer with Vince Beiser, it's all about sand, you heard me, sand. It's actually quite fascinating. There are even sand mafias killing people over sand.
[01:07:39] Vince Beiser: If anybody had told me three or four years ago that I was going to be spending my every waking hour thinking and talking about sand, I would have just laughed. It's actually the most important, solid substance on earth. We about 50 billion tons of sand every year. That's enough to cover the entire state of California every single year. Every year, we use enough concrete to build a wall 90 feet high and 90 feet across right the way around the planet at the equator.
[01:08:10] A bunch of sand might get broken off of a mountain top, washed down into a plane somewhere. And then that sand gets buried under subsequent geological layers and pushed down under the earth and compressed and turned into sandstone. And then that sandstone may get pushed up again by geologic forces over hundreds of thousands of years and worn away again. And again, broken down, back into grains. So an individual grain of sand can be millions of years old.
[01:08:41] Jordan Harbinger: We're fully eclipsing the rate of creation here.
[01:08:44] Vince Beiser: You're probably sitting in a building made of just a huge pile of sand. All the roads connecting all those buildings also made out of sand. The glass, the windows in all those buildings, also made of sand. The microchips that power our computers, our cell phones, all of our other digital goodies, also made from sand. So without sand there's no modern civilization. And the craziest thing about it is we are starting to run out.
[01:09:11] Jordan Harbinger: For more on why sand is the next petroleum like resource and some crazy stories about sand pirates and the black market, check out episode 97 with Vince Beiser right here on The Jordan Harbinger Show.
[01:09:26] Big thanks to Gary Vee. There's always so much there with him, especially when you get him to open up and sort of like turn off the performer persona for a bit, which is, you know, he's used to that, but him and I go way, way back. I mean, this is probably 14 years, 15 years now that we go back. So it's always good to chat with Gary. Links to his stuff will be in the show notes on the website at jordanharbinger.com. Please use our website links. If you buy books or anything from our guests. It does help support the show. Worksheets for episodes are in the show notes. Transcripts are in the show notes as well. I'm at @JordanHarbinger on both Twitter and Instagram, or hit me on LinkedIn.
[01:10:00] I'm teaching you how to connect with great people and manage relationships using systems, software, and tiny habits, the same ones that I use. That's in our Six-Minute Networking course. And that course is free. It's over at jordanharbinger.com/course. I'm teaching you how to dig the well before you get thirsty. And most of the guests on the show subscribe and contribute to that same course. Come join us, you'll be in smart company where you belong.
[01:10:22] This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Millie Ocampo, Ian Baird, Josh Ballard, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for this show is that you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting. If you know a Gary Vee fan or just another immigrant entrepreneur that might enjoy this, share this episode with them. Hopefully, you find something great in every episode of this show. Please share the show with those you care about. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show, so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time.
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