598: Gently Sequestering a Questionable Counselor | Feedback Friday

598: Gently Sequestering a Questionable Counselor | Feedback Friday

[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Special thanks to our sponsor Glenfiddich single malt scotch whisky lately. You've heard me talk about Glenfiddich in challenging traditional notions, commonly portrayed in culture, of what it means to be wealthy and live a life of riches. Glenfiddich believes that beyond the material, a life of wealth enriches is about family, community, values, and fulfilling work. These are the values that led Glenfiddich to become the world's leading single malt scotch whisky. On Feedback Friday, we're always trying to help solve problems that get in the way of you living your richest life. More from our partners at Glenfiddich coming up later in the show.

[00:00:29] Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the Maestro with the advice flow, Gabriel Mizrahi. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. So we want to help you see the Matrix when it comes to how amazing people think and behave, and our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. So you can get a deeper understanding of how the world works and make sense of what's really happening, even inside your own mind. 

[00:01:05] Now, if you're new to the show on Fridays, we give advice to you, we answer listener questions. The rest of the week, we have long-form interviews and conversations with a variety of amazing folks from spies to CEOs, athletes to authors, thinkers, and performers. And this week, we had Andrew Gold who exposes and documents a lot of really interesting subject matter from fake exorcisms, not that there are any real exorcisms, to admitted pedophiles and more. He's up and coming in the documentary space. And I've really enjoyed my conversation with him. We also had one from the vault Gary Vaynerchuk, recorded a few years back. This episode profile is one of the most, I guess, you could say prolific social media personalities of our time. So make sure you've had a look and to listen to everything that we created for you here this week. 

[00:01:44] It's a busy time of year and I've seen and heard a lot of complaining about how there's not enough time in the day. And I've done some of that complaining myself. But when I sit down and think about it, I would estimate that at least half of my frustrations with others are actually frustrations with myself for failing to set clear boundaries and stand by them. Whether it's a commitment I don't want to deal with or go to, or somebody who I'm still somehow subjecting myself to, even though I've grown tired of them years ago. It's almost always on me. 

[00:02:13] So this is something to think about between cooking, shopping, entertaining the kids and the family and all the rest of the things you might not have time for this holiday season. Where are your boundaries and where can you set more clear boundaries? You know, you don't have to have interactions with people you can't stand all the time. Sure, there's the occasional Uncle Frank. That happens, but you know, it's time for us to start protecting our time. It's really the only thing we can't get back. That old cliche is true. 

[00:02:37] All right. As always, we've got some fun ones and some wild ones. Gabe, what's the first thing out of the mailbag? 

[00:02:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey Jordan and Gabe, I'm in my late 20s and my family owns a very successful pest control company. The company prides itself on the fact that everyone in a position of power started their careers as technicians. I've spent the last five years working in the field where I've been successful and promoted to regional assistant, helping run a region with 11 branches. I'm now in line to take over my father's position as president and COO. I've clearly been blessed with one hell of an opportunity. I am very motivated and driven and I work very hard. My boss always says, "You have to earn respect before you can use any authority," which is spot on, but that's not why I'm crawling under houses, digging drains under houses until I have heat stroke or bleeding through five pairs of gloves in a day's work, I do it because our employees look up to me. I want to lead by example. I want to prove that I'm willing to do whatever it takes to make sure that they know I'll always be there. Inevitably, however, people do look at me differently. I typically get pinned as the rich white kid who didn't have to work for anything. I'm also on a fast track, not only because of my last name, but because I'm pretty damn good at my job, but everyone I haven't worked with thinks any movement up the totem pole is because of my family. And my regional manager, who is my boss, calls me his boss. And doesn't tell me when I'm doing something. I can see right through someone who's saying what they think I want to hear and I hate it. So how can I grow when my boss is afraid to constructively criticize my performance? Signed, Terminating the Special Treatment. 

[00:04:12] Jordan Harbinger: Such a great question. When people talk about the dysfunction and ineptitude of family owned businesses, this is oftentimes the reason. People in the family play by different rules from regular employees. So they're on the inside track. Their wealth and position are usually secured. Even if they're smart and ambitious like you, which I think is super admirable, they still have a privileged position that they just can't shake. And even if the company creates certain rules, like everyone has to start out as a technician in the field, which by the way, that's an excellent policy. The reality is you're in line to take over from your father because you're his son and no manager wants to be the guy who yelled at you for making a mistake when you were young, knowing that in the next few years, you're going to be deciding his bonus. The irony is you actually want people to treat you normally and giving you real feedback would probably build a stronger relationship with you.

[00:05:05] But that's my point, the politics real or perceived are super messy, which let's just acknowledge that is tough. This has got to be a very tricky position for you to be in. I know you get a lot of sh*t for being the Kendall Roy of this family, but I really feel for you here. Because what I'm hearing in your letter is not just, how do I grow when my boss won't give me feedback, but also how do I value myself? How do I know I even have what it takes? How do I know how people feel about me outside of my role in this family? That must be very confusing sometimes. And the fact that you want to cut through that and actually be a great leader, I think that says a lot about you. 

[00:05:44] So here's what I would do: first of all, if you want your manager to give you meaningful feedback, then I would tell them very bluntly what you want and give him permission to speak to you like a regular employee. You could say something like, "Listen, Frank, I want you to know how much I appreciate your guidance. I'm learning a ton. I'm really glad I got to start out working for you. I know it must be tricky for you to manage the boss's son. It's weird for me too, but I want you to know that I'm determined to become a great leader. Sometimes I get the feeling that you might be treating me with kid gloves, which I can understand, but that's not what I want. What I want is for you to treat me like any other employee seriously. And I want to ask you to stop calling me your boss, because I'm not there yet. I'm your guy right now. And I don't think I'll ever be a good boss to you in the future if you give me special status right now," something like. You have to make Frank feel safe, being real with you. And you have to mean this when you say it. No lip service to the idea of being treated like everyone else. You have to really be ready for meaningful criticism. And when he gives it to you say, thank you, take it on board, apply what he teaches you.

[00:06:52] The more he sees you, really engaging with his feedback, the more he'll feel validated and safe, continuing to do. And the more you'll learn and look, I'll be honest. You might not succeed a hundred percent here. There might always be a part of Frank and everyone else in this company that's always very aware that you're going to be the boss one day and that's why you can't really win here. This is why family businesses are so tricky, but even if you get Frank like 80 percent of the way there, that would be a huge win. And given that the other thing I would do is seek out your own sources of professional development. If you are really determined to be an amazing president and COO, I would be learning from as many outside sources as you can read the top business books from the last 30 years, listen to interviews with the best managers, learn how other companies manage their employees, give yourself like a mini MBA here.

[00:07:45] The other thing I would do is consider hiring an executive coach. It might seem premature, but I would be thinking five to 10 years ahead here. You need a voice that isn't beholden to your dad or worried about what you might think of them. Somebody who will tell you when you are mismanaging a project or struggling to lead and work with you to level up. Because like I said, it's very possible that you won't get truly unvarnished feedback from within the company. But if you find it outside and then you bring it in, that would help you avoid the pitfalls of all this kid gloving and politicking, which is usually the downfall of all talented, privileged people.

[00:08:21] And by the way, if you want a great case study for your situation, just watch a little documentary called Succession. That show is a freaking masterclass in what happens to companies that don't figure out how to deal with this problem. It's also kind of hilarious. So I would start taking things into your own hands a little more. You sound like a thoughtful young. That made me feel really old saying that by the way. You're really willing to get your hands dirty. You crave real feedback. You're genuinely interested in your employee's success that puts you in like the 0.001 percent of leaders. But because of your position, you're going to have to work harder than most people to get the education you need to really thrive.

[00:08:58] So don't be afraid to do that. That is part of your job right now. And while you do that, keep asking yourself how you're going to fix this problem in the future. Because if you have kids who grow up in the business one day, you're going to face this exact same issue as well. And you might be the one who finally solves it. Good luck. 

[00:09:18] You know who isn't afraid to tell you what you really need? Me. Honking my sponsor's products and services. 

[00:09:25] This episode is sponsored in part by Manscaped. Don't know what to get as a gift or stocking stuffer? Well, Manscaped has the tools to guarantee you when this year's stocking stuffer or white elephant competition. Manscaped is the leader in men's below the waist grooming and they've served more than four million men worldwide. And if my math is correct, well, that's almost eight million balls. May I suggest the Crop Mops ball wipes for those aforementioned balls or Manscaped best-selling product, the Performance Package 4.0. Inside, you'll find their Lawn Mower body trimmer and the Weed Whacker. That's an ear and nose hair trimmer, which I recommend you use regularly. Crop Preserver ball deodorant and Crop Reviver ball toner and other goodies. It's all vegan in case you want to eat it, I guess, cruelty-free, dye-free, sulfate-free, and paraben-free. So, you know, those are legit, whether it's for your partner, dad, brother, friend, get them something they will actually use and is almost sure to get a laugh. Make sure you hurry to their site and ensure these wild gifts show up before the holiday season. 

[00:10:18] Jen Harbinger: Get 20 percent off and free shipping at manscape.com with code JORDAN20. Be the ballsiest gift giver this year with Manscaped. 

[00:10:26] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by Klaviyo. You remember that ideal holiday gift as a kid, it was probably a certain toy, a hot new console, the big kid bike. And then after you become a grownup, the perfect gifts were the unexpected essentials, often that you get for yourself, fresh socks and undies, stackable storage containers, and owning your company's marketing data and growth naturally. Oh, yeah, the last one is definitely a great gift because owning your data helps build and retain larger audiences who stay actively engaged with your company. And that's a self gift our friends at Klaviyo are ready to share. Sure, boosting your marketing with Klaviyo probably wasn't the gift you had in mind this year, but you got to admit, it's a pretty good one to get yourself. Want to own your data and growth? Learn more at klaviyo.com/holidays. 

[00:11:10] Thanks for listening and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers keeps us going, who doesn't love some good products and/or services. You can always visit jordanharbinger.com/deals for all the details on everybody that helps support the show.

[00:11:24] And now back to Feedback Friday on The Jordan Harbinger Show. 

[00:11:29] All right, what's next? 

[00:11:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe, I'm a licensed clinical social worker who works for an agency that provides counseling services to military families. I love my job. I love the clients I serve, and I love that I get to be a meaningful part of people's lives. The problem is one of my colleagues had a medical issue a few years back that seriously impacted her ability to function. Oftentimes, I find that her sentences don't make sense. She becomes confused and disoriented and she cannot adequately track what's being discussed in team meetings, or even one-on-one. I'm prone to having empathy for the challenges people face in their lives. I mean, hello, I'm a therapist. So I find myself losing my mind over my colleague's inability to perform her job. It also impacts our team systemically as she is simply not capable of carrying an equal caseload to me or other team members. But the most significant issue here is her meeting with clients. Some of them have described their experiences with her as, quote-unquote, "bizarre" and ultimately discontinued services because of it, which is deeply sad to me. I'm not alone in my concern and other programs are now no longer referring to her because they doubt that she can ethically provide therapy. My supervisor has started to inquire about specific instances of my coworkers mental status and how it impacts client care. Now, I have feelings of guilt for collecting and reporting data on my coworker, but I wonder if my discomfort is worth it if it means protecting the profession and the clients that it's designed to serve. I know there's the option to file a board complaint, but that feels much more drastic and I'm just not ready to take such a formal stance. So how involved should I be in supporting management's efforts to establish reasonable cause for termination? Signed, The Conflicted Clinician.

[00:13:10] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. This is fascinating, Gabe. And also kind of sad, a social worker/therapist who's going through some pretty serious stuff herself. And then you have this woman who's stuck between empathizing with her colleague and protecting her patients. That is a really tough situation. It's got to be incredibly hard when a colleague is suffering and you have to take some action that would upset them, maybe even compromise their career, but then you also have to uphold your ethical obligation to your patients. So what do you do? 

[00:13:40] We wanted to talk to an expert about your situation. So we consulted with the one and only Dr. Erin Margolis, clinical psychologist, licensed social worker and friend of the show. And Dr. Margolis helped us see that this choice you're facing, even though it's putting you in a very difficult position, it's actually fairly straightforward. She pointed us to the National Association of Social Workers' code of ethics. I just happen to have a copy on my nightstand, which as you know, is basically the Bible for your profession. 

[00:14:08] And the first sentence of the first section literally says, "Social worker's primary responsibility is to promote the wellbeing of clients." Then later in the impairment of colleagues section, apparently they've thought about this already. It says, "Social workers who have direct knowledge of a social work colleague's impairment that is due to personal problems, psychosocial distress, substance abuse, or mental health difficulties, and that interferes with practice effectiveness should consult with that colleague when feasible and assist that colleague in taking remedial action." And it goes even further because later it says that, "Social workers who believe that the colleague has not taken adequate steps to address the impairment should take action through appropriate channels." So right there, it's pretty damn clear, you have an ethical obligation to intervene if your colleague's impairment is clearly interfering with their effectiveness, full stop.

[00:15:03] So the first thing I do, if you haven't done this already, is talk to your colleague director. I would take her to lunch or go for a walk and approach this conversation with a ton of compassion and respect. Maybe you say something like, "Listen, I just wanted to check in with you and see how you're doing. I know you've been through a lot lately. I want to support you and our patients as best I can. And I can tell you're really struggling these days. And I got to say, I have noticed that you seem confused recently, a little disoriented. It seems like it's hard for you to track what's being discussed in meetings, even when we talk one on one. So what's going on? Are you noticing any of that too?" And then talk it out, see if she'll acknowledge any of what you're noticing. Maybe she breaks down and so she's under a ton of stress and she's taking six months off and then the situation will be resolved or she'll ask you for help getting better and you can share some resources and support her. But if she denies that anything is wrong or she admits that she's struggling, but doesn't take any steps to get better. Then I think you have to escalate this. 

[00:16:02] And by the way, having this conversation with your colleague first, that's important for several reasons. First of all, you're ethically obligated to do so. As Dr. Margolis explained to us, there can be significant penalties for violating ethical obligations, ranging from a slap on the wrist to a financial fine to having your license suspended, to losing your license altogether. Very unlikely in this situation, but it is possible. The other reason I would have this conversation is if there were any legal or ethical action taken against your agency, by your colleague or anyone else for that matter, you'd be able to stand behind the ethical obligation that you had to intervene, but most importantly, doing your colleague the kindness of having this conversation before you report her, I think that will make you feel a lot less guilty knowing that you've really given her a fair shot to address this on her own. And since your supervisor was already looking into it, I would work with them. And honestly, I wouldn't feel overly conflicted about it.

[00:17:00] You said you love your clients, your role in people's lives and that role confers a great responsibility. And one way that you fulfill that responsibility is by protecting clients from an unstable or ineffective counselor. Not because she's some kind of monster, but because she's just not currently capable of helping the people who need her. And the same principle applies in any profession, but all the more so in a profession that explicitly is about helping people at their most vulnerable, especially people as deserving of help as military families. 

[00:17:31] And if you need some extra guidance here, Dr. Margolis also mentioned that you could call your local licensing board or your liability insurance and get an ethical consultation on what to do. Or if your agency has an in-house ethics board, you can talk to them about your situation without giving any identifying information and ask them what they recommend. 

[00:17:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yep. That's what they're there for. But I got to say, Jordan, you know, I'm hearing everything you're saying, and I agree, but part of what makes this decision so hard is that her colleague had a medical issue that led to this impairment. I mean, we don't know the full story, but I'm wondering if maybe she had a stroke that could have caused memory problems or maybe, I mean, who knows she could have been in a car accident and hit her head. Now she can't concentrate. It could be any number of things, but that's a very different story for, you know, another type of social worker who's, who knows? Like stumbling into their office drunk or going off their psychiatric meds or something like that. And maybe that's why she feels so guilty because this colleague of hers just had a freak health issue that really wasn't her fault and now she might be punished for it. 

[00:18:30] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. That's a really fair point. It is a different situation, but I would still argue that if the result is the same, if she's truly unable to care for her clients, does it matter if it's our fault or not? Either way she's dropping the ball and compromising people's lives. 

[00:18:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, yeah, that is also a fair point, but it might change the degree of compassion or the amount of latitude that they should give this person before they actually report it. I guess what I'm saying is that it's a little ambiguous and actually the NASW code of ethics, it seems to take this into account because there's a section where it says that ethical decision-making and I'm quoting them here is a process. "In situations where conflicting obligations arise," like this one, "Social workers may be faced with complex ethical dilemmas that have no simple answers." And it goes on to say that, "Social worker's decisions and the actions they take should be consistent with the spirit, as well as the letter of the code." So even in the freaking code of ethics, it's saying there isn't one right answer for a situation like this. 

[00:19:26] Jordan Harbinger: Nice. It's like a cop-out written right in there. Like, "Hey, all that stuff we just said about ethics and maybe none of it applies. " That's great. 

[00:19:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: Kind of, I mean, if you view this as a complex ethical dilemma where she's having to weigh her coworker's health challenges against her patients' needs, then yeah, her choice really isn't as clear cut as the code might seem. Although my stance and I think your stance, Jordan, is that the patients, I mean, ultimately they have to come first. Anyway, all the more reason to get the ethical consultations that you need to make the right call. 

[00:19:54] Dr. Margolis has had one last insight, which I thought was just dead on. She pointed out that you seem very focused on whether you should get involved in this situation at all, which is interesting because you also said how much you care about your patients, how much you care about your colleagues. And I'm wondering, is it because owning this decision is a little intimidating, is it because you're so empathic that you don't want to hurt anybody? Or is it just that, you know, maybe you're a little bit of a people pleaser, which would make a lot of sense, given your profession, you want to help? If so, if any of these things applies, I would explore that maybe in your own therapy and see how any avoidant or people-pleasing impulses might be playing out in your life. As Dr. Margolis put it, that might help you look at any barriers that might be in the way of you providing care to people and also managing difficult situations like this in the future. 

[00:20:40] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. That's a really interesting point. And that might be the real lesson here, what this situation is revealing about her as a person? But in my book, if clients are truly being compromised by a social worker, that person shouldn't be providing care, at least not right now. And it's up to everyone in the agency, especially management to uphold the standards of the profession. I know it sucks, but that's the reality. I wouldn't tip toe around a surgeon who couldn't remember how to perform a procedure, right? So I'm not sure why we should tip toe around a social worker who's actually just mistreating her clients. I know you'll make the right call here with the right guidance. Good luck. 

[00:21:16] You can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Try to use a descriptive subject line that makes our job a lot easier. And if you can include the state and country you live in, that'll help us give you more detailed advice. If there's something you're going through, any big decision you're wrestling with, or if you just need a new perspective on stuff like life, love, work. What to do if you find out your boyfriend is cheating on you because he's bisexual? Still letting that one rumble around in my head from last week, Gabe. Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. 

[00:21:50] I wanted to do a brief interlude here and talk a little bit about better help. You'd hear me recommending them all the time. I recommend therapy on the show all the time. They're a sponsor of the show, of course, but I think it's especially important to be real instead of just doing straight up ad reads all the time. I get a lot of nice notes from you guys about how you've tried Better Help and how it's helped you. We're all human beings. We all struggle from time to time. We talk about this on Feedback Friday a lot, and I know many of you wait until things are unbearable before considering getting help, but therapy's a tool you should utilize before things get worse. Don't just wait to like write into us and be like, "Wow, this is a total cluster. You should get therapy." It can help you avoid those low, low. Also many of you think that therapy is for so-called crazy people. I've said this before, but I've actually come to a realization through my own therapist that I'm not the crazy one in this particular situation, this was a few years ago. That helped me make decisions that dramatically helped improve my situation and my life and my business, and just really turned things around for me. 

[00:22:52] So I want you to know that therapy doesn't mean that something is wrong with you. It doesn't mean that you are broken. It means that you recognize that all humans have emotions and that we need to learn to control them, not avoid them, and we can strategize better together. And we've been taught that mental health shouldn't be a part of normal life for whatever reason. But that is wrong. That is wrong. We take care of our bodies at the gym. We go to the doctor, we do good nutrition or we attempt to, maybe not over the holidays, but whatever. We should be investing in, focusing on our minds, just as much, if not more, because hey, the mind should last a little longer, at least be in better shape than my body for a longer time, right?

[00:23:31] Better Help is much more affordable by the way than in-person therapy. You don't have to drive. You don't have to park. I know what you're thinking. I mentioned this before you think you don't need a therapist because you can talk to your friends. I'm on board with that. I get it. Good friends are great for bouncing things off of, but there are people in my life that I mostly hear from when they need a therapist, and that is exhausting for me. And I find myself not necessarily trained to handle their stuff. Not necessarily in the right place to hear from them. Sometimes I don't want to deal. I might even avoid their calls if I'm having a tough day. Your therapist won't do that to you. And also they're trained to deal with this. They can compartmentalize. Their relationship with you. Isn't complicated because they're your therapist. 

[00:24:10] So if you've been avoiding therapy, because you think your friends can be your therapist or avoiding it for any reason, for that matter, I highly recommend making a real appointment with a Better Help therapist, because you're probably pissing off your friends, at least. Better Help is customized online therapy that offers video, phone, even live chat sessions with your therapist. So you don't have to see anyone on camera or even get out of bed if you don't want to. Give it a try and see why over two million people have used Better Help online therapy. 

[00:24:36] And our listeners get 10 percent off their first month@betterhelp.com/jordan. That's better-H-E-L-P.com/jordan. And hey, it helps support the show, so thanks. And treat yourself good, go get Better Help. 

[00:24:49] All right. What's next? 

[00:24:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey Jordan and Gabe, I'm 29 and after struggling for all of my 20s, I finally feel like I've made it. In the span of 18 months, I've accomplished virtually all of my big life goals, finding a life partner, becoming HR manager at a large construction company without a college degree by the way, having my first child, building my dream home, and even picking up a puppy I always wanted. My issue is that I can't seem to turn off the need to acquire things. Just about anything that exists on a shelf, in a store, or an online warehouse is fair game. I spent a lot of my evenings before coming home, running errands for things I don't necessarily want, but I just can't seem to push the off button. I can walk into a department store for cat litter and leave with $150 worth of kids' clothes, toiletries, home improvements, or whatever the flavor of the day is. I now avoid grabbing carts. I leave my credit cards in inconvenient places and I've removed the shopping apps off of my phone, but that's only partially curved this impulse. This behavior has caused me to make bad decisions with my credit cards and then get small debt consolidation loans to try and. It's affecting my mental health as well. I get anxious and panicky several times a week that somebody will discover how irresponsible I am or that the bills will become too overwhelming. My partner doesn't have much interest in our finances. Our couple's therapist is more focused on our communication skills and doesn't take the bait to explore this topic and my family can't or just won't empathize. And most people outside of my inner circle, they're more interested in chastising me than helping me. Aside from getting my own individual therapist, which I plan to do when I can afford it, do you have any suggestions on how to get my sticky fingers off of my credit cards before catastrophe strikes? Signed, The Overwhelmed Oniomaniac. 

[00:26:33] Jordan Harbinger: Oniomaniac? What is that? I've never heard that word in my life.

[00:26:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, that's a good one, right? It basically just means somebody who is obsessed or has like an uncontrollable urge to buy things. It's like a polite term for shopping addiction. 

[00:26:44] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, okay, fair. Well, first of all, congrats on all of this growth in the last year and a half. That is a remarkable turnaround. The fact that you've been able to achieve all of this, despite having what sounds like a pretty gnarly compulsion to spend, that's super impressive and I really appreciate how open you're being about all this. So let's get into it. So it's interesting. You're asking how to get your sticky fingers off your credit cards before catastrophe strikes. But I think you need to rewind the tape even more to the roots of this compulsion to shop so much. It sounds to me like you're in the grip of a real shopping addiction, although there's debate out there about whether compulsive spending is technically an addiction, a lot of the symptoms, difficulty resisting the impulse to buy something, that feeling of euphoria when you do, feeling shame and remorse afterwards, creating financial problems for yourself. That to me sounds a lot like any other addiction. And if this is an addiction, then you're going to have to approach it like. And that means figuring out how this obsession with shopping is operating in your life, just like drinking excessively or doing drugs or staying up all night playing Fort Nite. 

[00:27:51] The addiction isn't really the problem. It's your solution to the problem. So the real question is: what's the problem? What are you aware of feeling right before you hit Target on the way home? What do you stop feeling when you're browsing the toiletries aisle and loading up your cart with your 18th bottle of freaking Burt's Bees baby shampoo. Then when you get home and unpack everything, what feelings start to creep in again? If it's me, I would really take inventory of those feelings before you shop. That's the first step. Because, if you can learn how to understand those feelings, better figure out where they're coming from, why they're so unpleasant, find a healthier and more productive way to channel them, then I think you'll start to get a handle on this compulsion. 

[00:28:33] And it's interesting. There's this famous compulsive shopping researcher. Yes, that's the thing. His name is Dr. Donald Black. He calls this pre-purchase tension or anxiety. He also says that almost two-thirds of all compulsive spenders struggle with depression or anxiety. But really any uncomfortable feeling can drive someone to spend compulsively, pain, loneliness, boredom, fear, anger. It's actually the inability to tolerate these negative feelings that drives people to spend, or just to need to fill some kind of inner void, you know, the feeling of emptiness inside that you think you can't fill anywhere else, but there's also an element of compulsive shopping, that's purely. This other researcher, Dr. Ruth Eng. She says that some people develop shopping addictions because they essentially get addicted to how their brain feels while acquiring stuff. Every time they drop something in the basket, their brain releases endorphins and dopamine. And over time, those feelings become addictive and the behavior gets reinforced. 

[00:29:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, that pretty much describes everybody including me on Amazon, Jordan. So I think that explains why we're all on amazon.com until 11:30 p.m. every night. So given that, besides going to therapy, what can you do to fix this? Well, Jordan already touched on the most important thing, which is really getting a handle on the feelings that are driving the spending and that the spending is also functioning to kind of tamp down. Ideally, you can do that with a therapist, but if you just can't get there right now, then you can explore this on your own as well. I would open up to your partner about this. Tell them you need help or just need to talk about it. Go for a walk with a friend, talk to them about it. Maybe you can journal about it. Whatever you do, I would look at the experiences that you associate with shopping and try to go as far back in your life as you can. 

[00:30:17] And look, if you're feeling frustrated that your couple's therapist is just not addressing this topic, which by the way, Jordan, that seems a bit weird to me. Just because money is such an important part of any relationship, it's like, why would we be dancing around that in couples therapy, but whatever, we'll put that. If you're frustrated about that, then I would just speak up. I would tell your counselor, "Look, I want to talk about this. I have a problem with shopping. I think I have a problem with money. It's affecting my relationship. This is a priority for me. Can we talk about it?" And look, the next time you find yourself swinging by, you know, Pottery Barn to check out that $1,800 chaise longue you've had your eye on— 

[00:30:48] Jordan Harbinger: You mean chaise lounge? 

[00:30:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: Chaise longue. 

[00:30:52] Jordan Harbinger: No, chaise lounge. What are you talking about longue? It's a lounge chair. Wait, am I wrong about this? You're a writer. This is terrifying because I've never gotten this right in my life if you're correct here. 

[00:31:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm pretty sure that it's chaise longue.

[00:31:05] Jordan Harbinger: That is terrifying. We have to get to the bottom of this right now. 

[00:31:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's quick goog. 

[00:31:11] Jordan Harbinger: I know. It's chaise. 

[00:31:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: Chaise, yeah. 

[00:31:15] Jordan Harbinger: L-O-U-N-G-E is how this is spelled. It's spelled literally like everywhere on the Internet. Am I going crazy right now? What's happening? 

[00:31:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, no, yeah, I just Googled it. It's chaise longue actually, but I think, because it sounds so weird in English, a lot of American say chaise lounge, and that's just become the accepted use. 

[00:31:32] Oh man. 

[00:31:32] But it's actually chaise longue, yeah. long chair. 

[00:31:35] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. My entire world is upside down, but now I know, and then I'm going to do it right now and someone's going to be like, "Do you mean chaise lounge moron," and I'm going to, we're going to have this conversation all over again, except I'm going to be on your side.

[00:31:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: Maybe they call it a chaise longue, because that makes it sound like it's worth $1,800. 

[00:31:49] Jordan Harbinger: There you go. That's for sure. 

[00:31:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: Whereas like a chaise lounge should be much cheaper. 

[00:31:51] Jordan Harbinger: Anything with a French name is going to be overpriced. 

[00:31:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly. 

[00:31:55] Anyway, next time you find yourself at some fancy furniture store and you're checking out some expensive piece of furniture that you had your eye on, I would stop, like physically stop in the store and take stock of what you are feeling in that moment. Is it anxiety? Is it anger? Is it loneliness, boredom, maybe a loss of control, whatever it is, locate the feeling, name it, try to trace it back to its source and then ask yourself if buying another object is really going to fix that feeling or if it's just going to put a bandaid on it for a few hours. And then over time, hopefully you start to replace the urge to shop with these other healthier hobbies. Maybe the next time you feel the urge to log on to Amazon again after work, you promise yourself, "No, I'm going to go for a run first. I'm going to run first and then I'm going to go to Amazon and see how I feel then. 

[00:32:37] I wouldn't be surprised, Jordan, if some of this pre-purchase tension, I think it was the word you used, if that eases up, when this guy channels it into a more productive activity. Eventually, I do think you will start to rewire the reward system in your brain. You might just need to replace one addiction with a better one and sure, canceling your credit cards, or maybe giving them to your partner. That might be a good stop gap in the meantime, but I wouldn't settle for that solution. That's kind of like baby proofing the cabinets, right? We got to like solve the deeper issue here. Get to the bottom of it, make it a priority. 

[00:33:07] Jordan Harbinger: Yep. Start digging my friend. Find the roots of this thing. You have a partner, a family, a great career, a very full life. You have a lot of great reasons to be financially sound. And you've got this. Gabe, I'm just imagining somebody picking up baby clothes at Target, and then like putting them back on the shelf and running around the Target three or four times. And then going back in like, "Yeah, I still want this." 

[00:33:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: Sure, why not? Do some burpees in the parking lot. 

[00:33:29] Jordan Harbinger: Just get your sweat on in the garden section and then go back like, "Yep. Nope, I still want footsie PJs for the kid." 

[00:33:37] By the way, if you're joining us for the first time, or you're looking for a way to tell your friends about the show, we've got the episode starter packs. These are collections of your favorite episodes, organized by popular topics to help new listeners get a taste of everything that we do here on the show. Just visit jordanharbinger.com/start to get started. 

[00:33:55] All right. What's next? 

[00:33:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey Jordan and Gabe, after a crazy couple of years, I recently decided to learn some new skills and transition into the tech world. To start this career switch, I got back on LinkedIn and I noticed that some people list their pronouns underneath their name. I'm on board with people showing them. And I make the effort to use the right ones for different people. But since I'm fine with the pronouns, that would be assumed for me. I just don't feel the need to list them personally. My question is how would putting pronouns on my social media be perceived by others? Does using pronouns help indicate something culturally? Would it help my online presence to show pronouns. I live in a pretty conservative state Indiana, but my own suburb is kind of purple. When I did phone banking for democratic candidates, other people had pronouns in their Zoom window. On the flip side, plenty of people are still very Republican in the area. And could maybe think of me negatively for listing my pronouns, even if it's on a subconscious level. So, what would you do? Signed, The purple Pronoun Proponent. 

[00:34:53] Jordan Harbinger: Well, this is an interesting question. We've actually been getting it a lot lately and we're at an interesting moment in the culture where the whole listing your pronouns thing is helping people communicate how they want to be referred to. But it's also signaling support for a larger movement, and that comes with its own associations positive or negative, depending on your perspective.

[00:35:13] I generally think that people listing their pronouns, I mean, it's fine. Sometimes, it's helpful. People's intentions are usually good. And if a few people get worked up about it, it's like, "Calm down. We're just making things easier for some folks." At the same time, the fact that listing your pronouns could either work for or against you, depending on who your audience is. That does worry me a little bit, just that this little act has become so politicized. And also the fact that you're trying to guess how people will perceive you based on this one little choice, it just says a lot about where we are right now. 

[00:35:46] I haven't been in a corporate environment for years. I don't even think about this kind of thing at all. So we wanted to chat with an expert about your situation. So we ran this by Michelle Lederman. Michelle is a top-notch executive coach. She's also the author of The Connector's Advantage. So she really knows her stuff when it comes to navigating key decisions in your career. 

[00:36:05] And it's interesting. Michelle told us that she's actually asked herself this exact same question. In the past, she thought that she didn't have to list her pronouns because not listing them is basically the norm, it's the default. And then one day a colleague of hers pointed out that if everybody puts their pronouns, then that's the norm. And it doesn't highlight those people and make them feel different. So it led Michelle to start including her pronouns. Okay, that's Michelle, that's her choice. You might go a different way. And that's okay. Michelle said that this is really about your personal brand and how you want to be perceived. So if you're concerned that your brand is, let's assume, more inclusive or whatever, and you think that that's going to prevent you from being accepted or getting work with certain types of people, then you have to make a choice as to which one is more important expressing your philosophy or appealing to these employers.

[00:36:56] So in Michelle's view, the question isn't how you think you'll be perceived. It's really, how do you want to be perceived? If you understand that listing your pronouns will probably signal that you're a progressive, inclusive, whatever, and you're okay with that, then go for it. If not, then you might want to reconsider, we know where your heart is, but whether you're willing to risk alienating people and losing out on job offers for these beliefs, that's the potential costs that you're going to have to accept.

[00:37:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, that's such a sh*tty cost to accept. It sucks that she has to even think about that. But yes, Jordan, that is exactly the risk. It's a hard call to make though, because she lives in a purple suburb. So this really could go either way. I'm listening to her letter and I want to say, you know, "Yes, absolutely stand by your principles. You want to be an ally. Screw anyone who will hold that against you." But I also really want her to land this job. Like she obviously wants to make the transition into tech. I do agree with Michelle, but there's another part of me that feels like maybe it wouldn't be the worst thing if she skipped the pronouns just while she's interviewing so that she doesn't avoid alienating people who would get super worked up about this, maybe hold it against her and then land a couple offers. 

[00:38:02] And then once she's inside one of these companies, she can add her pronoun on Zoom window, and anybody who gets annoyed by that kind of thing will just have to deal with it, basically. Because it sounds like her first. Is to transition into the tech world. Her second priority is to really, you know, change hearts and minds. But also Jordan, again, I'm torn because that might be compromising her integrity and maybe even perpetuating the exact intolerance that she's fighting against. So, honestly, I don't know. That's a tough one. 

[00:38:28] Jordan Harbinger: It's really tricky. I feel old when it comes to this, this is sort of my boomer stuff because I'm like, do we really need to do this? But also I understand points on both. I think what you're saying is that it's all about her beliefs, but it's also about balancing those with her very real needs, like getting a job that she really wants. And to be fair, I don't think she's trying to like become the social media manager for a company that manufactures Neo-Nazi t-shirts and she needs to pretend to be a completely different person to just get a paycheck from some maniacs.

[00:38:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: Good point. 

[00:38:58] Jordan Harbinger: The company she's applying to they're probably made up of people of all stripes. Most of them are probably decent people. And she's just trying to get along with as many of them as possible while also doing what she thinks is right. So honestly, I don't think you can necessarily go wrong. You're probably going to alienate fewer people than you think, but you also might not change as many people's minds as you hope. I would do what honors your beliefs up until the point it seriously compromises your career and figure out what matters to you more right now, landing a job or waving the flag, whatever the flag is. That'll help you make the right decision for yourself. We're also going to link to Michelle Lederman's book, The Connector's Advantage in the show notes. It's a terrific book. I highly recommend checking it out and good luck. 

[00:39:43] Man, Gabe. I do not envy people seeking jobs in this political climate. I don't do the pronoun thing like I mentioned, but I also put like zero thought into it and I'd kind of like to keep it that way for now, honestly. This seems like such a trivial thing to get hung up on, but it's a very real concern right now. Like the right or wrong virtue signals can screw you. This whole space has just become a minefield. 

[00:40:05] You know what will make you feel better if you don't get one of those jobs? The products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. 

[00:40:13] This episode is sponsored in part by Skillshare. Humans are born to create whether you picked up a paintbrush yesterday, or in kindergarten, you can explore your creativity and be inspired. I personally never viewed myself as creative, but I do make my living creating the show. So I guess technically. Whether you're a dabbler or a pro, a hobbyist or a master or your creative, discover what you can make with classes for every skill level, course options span the gamut. And you can find classes like securing your WordPress site to calligraphy to Adobe illustrator. Jen is taking the portrait photography course on how to shoot and edit Instagram-worthy. She's all about taking those family photos every season and the course teaches how to pose, which I know nothing about, interesting angles, harnessing the power of natural light from harsh sun to the magic hour. Skillshare is also incredibly affordable with an annual subscription, less than 10 bucks a month, which is less than the price of a lunch and knowledge is forever. 

[00:41:08] Jen Harbinger: Explore your creativity at skillshare.com/harbinger. And get a one month free trial of premium membership. That's one month of a premium membership at skillshare.com/harbinger. 

[00:41:19] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by Glenfiddich. Glenfiddich breaks from the single malt scotch whisky norm, and helps redefine what it means to be rich. Very easy these days to get bogged down and material success. Maybe pick up a couple of Maserati, but the currency of the new rich is getting more time and enjoyment out of what we've already got, and that should include helping other people, fulfilling work, our relationships. Now, on Feedback Friday, we hear how people hate their job and their relationships, but we do what we can to help fix that, right? And we get it done with a little bit of class. I'd like to think. Glenfiddich, unlike this show, doesn't outsource any part of their production process. They control the process from distillation to maturation to bottling ensuring the highest quality and integrity of their whisky. All maturing casks are onsite. Glenfiddich maintains an onsite cooperage to ensure the highest quality of barrels. If you've ever wondered what barrel makers were called, they're coopers, apparently. Glenfiddich, even as an onsite coppersmith to ensure the highest quality of stills and they bottle onsite using a single source of water at every stage of production. It's no wonder why Glenfiddich is the number one selling single malt, scotch whisky in the world. 

[00:42:20] Jen Harbinger: Skillfully crafted, enjoy responsibly. Glenfiddich 2021 imported by William Grant and Sons in New York, New York. 

[00:42:27] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored in part by NetSuite. This is it. The putt to win the tournament. If you sink it, the championship is yours, but on your backswing, your hat falls over your eyes. Is that how you're running your business? Poor visibility, because you're still relying on spreadsheets and outdated finance software.. To see the full picture you need to upgrade to NetSuite by Oracle NetSuite is the number one cloud financial system to power your growth with visibility and control over your financials, inventory, HR, planning, budgeting, and more. NetSuite is everything you need to grow all in one place. With NetSuite, you can automate your processes and close your books in no time while staying well ahead of your competition. 93 percent of surveyed businesses increased their visibility and control after upgrading to Netsuite.

[00:43:08] Jen Harbinger: Over 27,000 businesses already use NetSuite. And right now, through the end of the year, NetSuite is offering a one of a kind financing program to those ready to upgrade@netsuite.com/jordan. Head to netsuite.com/jordan for a special end-of-the-year financing on the number one financial system for growing businesses. netsuite.com/jordan. 

[00:43:27] Jordan Harbinger: And now for the conclusion of Feedback Friday. 

[00:43:31] All right, what's next? 

[00:43:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey Jordan and Gabe, I'm 29 years old. I'm running my own business and I've had a girlfriend for over six years now. We both own an investment property together and everything is stable. The thing is both of us also still live at home with our parents. We have great relationships with them. My parents are Greek, hers are Filipinos. So this is all quite culturally normal for both sets of parents. We have zero pressure to move out at all. The thing is, most of my friends are moving out now, and that does weigh on my mind. Part of the reason we're both still at home is so we can build a lot of capital to keep investing in our business and our future home. But as I approach my thirties, I feel a social expectation for us to move out. So what should I do? Signed, Sweating What They'll Say While I Build My 401K. 

[00:44:17] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. Well, first of all, congrats on finding a great partner and building up this wealth at such a young age. That is exciting. It's also cool that you both have such strong relationships with your parents. I think that's very rare. It must be nice for pretty much everyone involved. You've had to pay a price for building up these assets, which is living at home, but it sounds like that isn't really much of a price for you. You don't mind living at home. You like your parents, it doesn't sound like it's gotten in the way of your relationship very much. So the opportunity costs are pretty low, maybe nil.

[00:44:48] Given all of that, I'm a little surprised by your question. You're saying that you feel this expectation to move out because your friends are getting their own places, but what do you want? What matters to you? If you're looking at your friends getting their own apartments and going, "Wow, is there something wrong with me? Do I need to be more like them to be happy? Am I missing something?" Then I would not buy into those thoughts too much. Then you're just wanting something because the people around you want it, which is a classic mistake and a recipe for unhappiness. And keep in mind that those friends are embracing their own opportunity costs.

[00:45:23] They might be living on their own, but they're not saving the money that you are to invest in their futures. So there's no perfect scenario. But if you're watching your friends become more independent and you're realizing that you actually want that for yourself, maybe you're discovering that living with your parents at this age isn't the healthiest thing for you and your girlfriend, or maybe you want some more freedom to be closer with your girlfriend. Then I do think that's worth exploring. Again, nothing in your letter gives me the sense that living with your parents is super weird or dysfunctional. And a lot of this is cultural. In some cultures, people live with their parents well into adulthood sometimes until they get married. So that's the norm. So if this works for all of you guys and it's advancing your goals, so great. 

[00:46:06] But I will say that in my experience, and I'm clearly biased as a guy who grew up in the states with American parents being in a relationship and living with your parents at age 29, that has got to take some kind of toll. It might not be straight up toxic or anything like that, but it might chip at your sense of independence, your privacy certainly. I just don't know if you can be fully in an adult romantic relationship when you're sharing a wall with mommy and daddy and arguing over who finished the Quaker Oats in the morning. If there's a healthy separation that needs to occur between you guys and your parents, and there always is, then I would start thinking about what your game plan is.

[00:46:45] So bottom line, I wouldn't feel pressure to move out just because your life looks different from other people's, especially if this is helping you guys become financially independent and your parents are cool with it. But I also wouldn't stick around for another decade if it's holding you back from creating your own identity outside of them, you've already accomplished way more than most 29 year olds. Your parents have played a big role in that. That's generous of them. You might not need to live under their roof until you're 38 to achieve everything you want to achieve. You could get a small apartment and keep your overhead down, so you and your girlfriend can buy your next property. Or you can move out and work really hard on your business to give yourselves even more capital. But this really just comes down to your priorities. Maybe you're willing to sacrifice your autonomy if it means getting a rental property that will allow you and your girlfriend to pay for your kid's college tuition in 20 years. And hey, fair enough, just keep balancing this living arrangement with all of your other needs and get clear on which opportunity costs you're willing to accept. That's all that really matters. Not how your friends perceive you, now that they live in a five-story walk-up and pay their own spectrum bill while they ignore their nest eggs. And great job on thinking so far ahead. I think that's awesome. 

[00:47:57] I hope you all enjoyed that. I want to thank everyone who wrote in this week and everyone who listened. Go back and check out Andrew Gold and Gary Vaynerchuk if you haven't yet. If you want to know how I managed to book all of these great guests here on the show, it's about systems, software, and tiny habits. I'm teaching you how to dig the well before you get thirsty over in our Six-Minute Networking course. And that course is free. It's over on the Thinkific platform at jordanharbinger.com/course. 

[00:48:24] A link to the show notes for the episode can be found at jordanharbinger.com. Transcripts are in the show notes. I'm at @JordanHarbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. You can find Gabe on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi or on Instagram at @GabrielMizrahi. 

[00:48:39] This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, Josh Ballard, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions, those are our own. I'm a lawyer, I'm not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on this. Ditto Michelle Lederman. Dr. Margolis' input is general psychological information based on research and clinical experience. It's intended to be general and informational in nature. It does not represent or indicate an established clinical or professional relationship with those inquiring for guidance. And you should know that anyway. Remember, we rise by lifting others. So share the show with those you love. And if you found this episode useful, please share it with somebody else who can use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show, so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time. 

[00:49:29] If you're looking for another episode of The Jordan Harbinger Show to sink your teeth into, here's a trailer for another episode with retired astronaut, Chris Hadfield. 

[00:49:37] Chris Hadfield: I watched the first two people walk on the moon and I thought, "Wow, I'm going to grow up to be something. Why don't I grow up to be that? That's the coolest thing ever." It is purely the direct results of all of those little minute by minute decisions that I've made since starting when I was a kid just turned 10. 

[00:49:57] When I got the telephone call asking if I would like to be an astronaut, I was at the top of my profession. I was the top test pilot in the US Navy as a Canadian, and then to be selected as an astronaut, suddenly I'm a guy who knows nothing. I sit in my office and I'm like, "I'm a complete imposter. I have zero skills right now." 

[00:50:19] Whenever anybody has offered to teach me something for free, I've always taken them up on it. How are you getting ready for the major events in your life that things that matter to you, that things that have consequences? Are you just sort of waving your hands and go, "Oh, probably it'll turn out okay"? Or are you actually using the time available to get ready for it? Maybe it will turn out okay. But if the stakes are high, to me, that's just not a gamble I willingly take. If at some point, like you think you know everything you need to know, then you just didn't process dying. 

[00:50:46] What astronauts do for a living is visualize failure, figuring out the next thing that's going to kill you, and then practice it over and over and over again, until we can beat that thing. When we know how to deal with it, then you do a much better job and a more calm and comfortable way of doing it as well. You don't miss it. You're not overwhelmed by it. If something you could do while thinking of something else. You'll notice how beautiful it is, how magnificent it is, how much fun it is. You're not just completely overwhelmed by the demands of the moment. 

[00:51:17] Jordan Harbinger: For more on how Commander Chris Hadfield managed to stay focused on his dream, starting at age nine, to become the first Canadian to walk in space, check out episode 408 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.