178: Michelle Tillis Lederman | Why Relationships Are Our Greatest Assets

Transcript for Michelle Tillis Lederman - Why Relationships Are Our Greatest Assets (Episode 178)

Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with my producer Jason DeFillippo. One of the most common recurring themes on the show is networking and relationship development. The reason for this is because no single skill set in my entire life has yielded nearly the amount of business results, wealth, happiness, fulfillment, and wellbeing as has the skill and practice of building and maintaining strong relationships in my personal and professional life. Today on the show, Michelle Tillis Lederman, an author, former finance executives, NYU prof, and perhaps most importantly good friend of mine, discussed the idea that people who connect with one another do so on a spectrum. We'll find out where you are on that spectrum of connectors as well as give you the tools to move upwards if you so desire. We'll also explore the types of connectors and outline a few practical ways that you can learn to become one of these super connected successful archetypes yourself.

[00:00:54] Now, if you're an introvert, this episode will help you manage this without telling you to just put yourself out there. And if you're an extrovert, you'll find some tools to magnify the power of connection that you're probably already leveraging in your own life. Speaking of networking, we've got our Six-Minute Networking course for those of you who want to learn how to do this, it is free, so quit your crying, no more excuses. It's at jordanharbinger.com/course. And it only takes a few minutes per day, so get after it, jordanharbinger.com/course. All right, here's Michelle Lederman.

[00:01:24] Let's talk about the connectors advantage or just connectors in general. How's that?

Michelle Lederman: [00:01:28] Sounds good. I'll follow your lead. That's what worked well the last few times.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:01:31] So far so good. Yeah. What I liked about when we were doing the prep and everything is you really have like outlined different mindsets of a connector. Most people just go like put yourself out there and network and it's like and seen. Right? That's the whole show. But you've got different types of connectors and a spectrum of connectors, and we like spectrums now I don't we. And also the mindsets of a connector, which I think are important because a lot of people don't really think you need to do anything more than be friendly or follow up with an email, you know? So let's go through these mindsets because I think these are important, because you can then adapt each one sort of as a piece instead of just being more social in air quotes, which people can't do.

Michelle Lederman: [00:02:14] And the one that is social and curious is not intended the way people generically think of it.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:02:19] Okay, well what do we mean by that?

Michelle Lederman: [00:02:21] When I say social, I don't mean social butterfly. I don't mean life of the party. I mean thinking about being curious.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:02:27] Okay.

Michelle Lederman: [00:02:27] Right. That's why they go hand in hand. It's not being social and it's not being curious. It is being social and curious. So when I meet you to ask questions, to learn about you, to find where that common interest and that common value, that common experience, that common something which is where connection forms.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:02:42] Okay, curious I like. A lot of people think they're not curious or people will think they're social but not curious or maybe they think they're both, tends to be the people aren't either.

Michelle Lederman: [00:02:52] Well sometimes people think that they're being nosy and especially you see this a little bit more with introverts. They don't want to ask questions because they think they are prying or being nosy or being too forward.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:03:03] I have/had that and had to get over that and it was very helpful. I used to be like, well, I don't want to ask some, I'm bothering them. You know, some will go, "What are you doing this weekend?" And I go, "Oh I don't know, nothing." And then I wouldn't say, what about you, because it's like well that's none of my business.

Michelle Lederman: [00:03:19] But most people love to share.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:03:21] Of course.

Michelle Lederman: [00:03:21] And they love to talk about themselves.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:03:23] When you grow up shy, you're not necessarily thinking about that. And then of course it didn't help that as soon as I was starting to get over that really well in law school, I went to go work in the UK and this partner was in the elevator of the stuck-up British law firm called Linklaters -- happy to name check them here -- the partner said, "Do you have big plans this weekend?" And I said, "Yeah, I'm going to go around London." And he's like, "Oh, that sounds splendid or something like that." And I said, "What about you?" And he goes, "Oh, well I have a fishing cabin. I'm going to go fishing." I said, "Oh, that should be great. Have a great weekend." And then on Monday, another partner was like, "Did you ask Mr. Crawford about his weekend plans?" And I said, "Hmm, I think so in the elevator after he asked about my weekend plans." And then they were like, "That man has worked very hard to get where he is, very hard." And I was like, "Got it. Don't show interest in anyone else." So I got a little scarred there. But I think it does. There is a benefit to this in most cultures anyway where like you said, people love to share but we tend to forget that because we, we revert to basketball, especially if we're introverted.

Michelle Lederman: [00:04:35] Yeah. So I mean that that one experience is interesting because that's probably really more about him and his sensitiveness around feeling like he's allowed to go and have some fun.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:04:45] Yeah.

Michelle Lederman: [00:04:46] Or maybe he's incredibly private person and you know, somebody who's hit that level, they might have their reasons around it. And so maybe we ask broader more generic questions. Nothing so personal. And that's what I usually say to introverts. If you feel or are worried about that, one, think of it as, "I'm showing interest, I'm showing you I care." And two, don't go personnel and think about only asking questions around something that you would be willing to share as well. And if it would pass your snout smell test, it'll probably pass theirs.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:05:15] I'm at this point now, especially being an interviewer where I will ask ridiculous stuff and if people get offended, I'm like, well, that's your own problem. Like I really don't care and I'm not just talking about on the show. Of course I do that on a show, but I will ask somebody something and say things in everyday life and it's --

Michelle Lederman: [00:05:34] Okay. Like what?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:05:35] I'm trying to think. Jen, can you think of an example of something I asked where you were just like, "Oh God, why?" I feel like that happens.

Jen Harbinger: [00:05:43] It happens a lot. I can't think of an example. Right.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:05:45] Yeah. Nothing, nothing readily on hand. But there will be something where -- oh, you know, someone will have and this isn't even that bad -- someone will have like an accent and I'll go, "Where are you from?" "Oh, I'm from Pakistan," or "I'm from Yemen." "Oh man, that place is going through a rough spot right now, huh?" "Oh yeah. You know there's a lot of --" "Is your family still there? Oh man, you must be so worried." Like I'm just like go, I'm talking like I know the guy. And Jen is just kind of like, "Hey, you don't know if he's going to react well to this." But you know what was is funny, universally ,they started having a good time because all of the social convention that keeps people sort of separate from one another goes out the window pretty fast.

Michelle Lederman: [00:06:27] Sometimes when you are just that open and that's one of the lines that's open and accepting. If you're that open and you're that free with your interest and your questions and if somebody gets that sense from you, then they are not necessarily looking for the, "How can I find the fence here?"

Jordan Harbinger: [00:06:41] Right.

Michelle Lederman: [00:06:42] And they might be tentative at first, but then as they start to see and feel that from you, they take their barriers down a little bit and they just engage in the conversation.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:06:52] It's kind of like -- we might call this frame control where it's like, I'm so open. Let's say that you and I are talking and then a third person comes in and they're shy. They kind of can't keep being shy because you and I are going to mercilessly bumble them in to being open to the point where they're like -- okay, I guess, it's just easier for them to start spilling their guts than it is for them to keep themselves walled off. And that's something that is tougher to do as an individual. But you can definitely do it. I'm sure because you and I, when we talked on Skype it was like instant friendship because we're both very open and kind of like that. And I feel like you probably wouldn't let somebody off the hook so easily to be close.

Michelle Lederman: [00:07:30] No, I mean even if I see somebody lurking in a conversation, and this is what I say to people about being social is if you see somebody who looks like they may want to be part of it, they might be eavesdropping, giving a little bit of a body signal, open up your body and invite them in with your eyes. And even, you know, with your gestures to bring that into that conversation because it's hard to break in especially in one of those environments where somebody is already really animated and we're going, nobody's going to break into our conversation.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:08:00] Right. Because they don't want to be rude or they're like, "Crap, how do I jump in with this amount of energy that these two have?" Because you want to match the energy of a conversation when you join generally or have maybe more buy a little.

Michelle Lederman: [00:08:13] Or feel like there's something that you're adding or contributing.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:08:16] Right.

Michelle Lederman: [00:08:17] One of the things I would tell people -- I actually do a demo of this, because they'll go, "How do you break in?" And I say, "Well, if you're going to break in, you got to make sure that people start looking at you when you do it."

Jordan Harbinger: [00:08:28] Oh yeah.

Michelle Lederman: [00:08:28] You can't be like, "Oh, did you just --"

Jordan Harbinger: [00:08:31] Right.

Michelle Lederman: [00:08:31] No light voices. It's, "Did I just hear you say?"

Jordan Harbinger: [00:08:34] Come in like a wrecking ball.

Michelle Lederman: [00:08:35] Yeah. And then they're all looking at you and just say, "Sorry for eavesdropping, but I couldn't help but..." And then take the conversation from there and now you're in but you're playing off of the conversation they were having as long as that conversation is not between just two people, because it's hard to break into that private conversation. But if there's three or more, go for it.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:08:55] That's a good point. I mean, of course, there are exceptions where one person is crying or it seems very serious. Like then you know, you would respect that boundary but you're right. I like that sort of rule of two. There were two guys in the lobby of the hotel yesterday morning talking about some kind of cool sounding tech product and an investing thing and I was like, I want to chime in. Then I was like, Oh, this is clearly either a sales meeting or this person is like an investor and it's not something where they want to just chat with the guy next to them. But you're right. Three or more specially for some reason if they're standing, it's generally a little bit more of an open type of situation because it's less formal, maybe. Less of a focus on one another, and of course context would matter.

Michelle Lederman: [00:09:38] And environment does matter. Sometimes when you're standing, that does make it easier. But I've been in waiting rooms, right? So you're at some office building and you're all hanging out in the reception area and two people are having conversation, but we're kind of in this space and so I might jump in because I'm bored.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:09:52] Yeah.

Michelle Lederman: [00:09:53] I've got to wait. I need to kill time, I need to keep my energy up, I need to feel it. So I'll jump into whatever conversations there and I actually tell people who are on job interviews to do that. It will actually bring your nerves down.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:10:04] That's a great idea. Sort of warming up. I do that before shows too where -- and Jen sees this, where I'll chat with -- not just the waiter at breakfast, but it's like I'll chat with people in the elevator because I don't want to get set up and everything. And then I'm like, "Okay, I have to speak the first sentence I've spoken today, oh man." You've got to want a peek at some point when the recording is happening, not in the middle.

Michelle Lederman: [00:10:25] And that's like flipping a switch and that's not bringing the real you.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:10:30] Right.

Michelle Lederman: [00:10:30] So if we ever feel like we're flipping a switch, I tell people to try to flip that switch before you get into the environment you need to get, do find that productive energy and you know, figure out where to get your mind in the right place for that interaction.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:10:43] So we have open and accepting our social and curious mindsets of connectors. And then you have a clear vision. A vision of what? What are we talking about here?

Michelle Lederman: [00:10:51] So this is one that people question a lot because that's really about me, right? I'm a connector, but my vision is what I'm working on, what my goals are, what I'm trying to accomplish.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:11:02] Okay.

Michelle Lederman: [00:11:02] And everyone's like, well, the connector really needs to be outwardly focused.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:11:06] Right. Help others before expecting anything in return.

Michelle Lederman: [00:11:09] Without that mindset and we'll get to it. But what I talk about in the connectors advantage is that the results are faster, easier, better. Don't mind the grammar -- faster, easier, and better.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:11:19] Okay.

Michelle Lederman: [00:11:19] And if you are thinking about why there is an advantage to being relationship-based in your interactions, in your business, in your life. Then you need to actually know what you're working on so that you see those results for you as well as for them. You don't want to forget yourself in the mix of being a connector. So have a clear vision of what you're working on, what your goals are. My goal is make, make this a bestseller. Right? So I'm very clear. This is what we're working on right now. And that clear vision means you know what you want and you know how to ask for it. And a lot of that chapters focused on how do you ask for something because it's really hard.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:11:55] A lot of people find that to be tricky. I, of course, think that some of the reasons people think it's tricky is because they've neglected their network, they've neglected their relationships for five years, and then they're like, "So I have this dog grooming eBook and I really want you to sell it to your email list and I feel shame asking you because I've never done anything for you. And yes, I did get your three holiday cards and yeah, I did see your email and your text and no, I didn't reply because Netflix but here's my book."

Michelle Lederman: [00:12:22] You know, we talk about being long-term focused and this is actually a followup to the Likability book -- and I know we've done a couple shows on that. This is really going from networking is something that you do, a connect of someone that you are.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:12:35] Ah, interesting. Okay.

Michelle Lederman: [00:12:36] And so this is embodying how I think about people, how I think about interactions, how I think about on how I'm putting myself out there. And when you are a connector, you're always thinking with these mindsets. And even though I might not have done something for the person who you know, has the e-grooming dog book, I might've done something for their neighbor or their best friend or none of them, but it's the chain reaction. When you present yourself to the world this way and you are giving and you are thinking about from a place of abundance and you're conscientious and you trust -- and all the things that we're going to talk about, it is exponential in the response. And people want to give and it's not, and it's not linear and it shouldn't be linear. It shouldn't be quid pro quo or whatever that Latin phrase is.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:13:26] Yeah. That's what that said. It's what it is. Yeah.

Michelle Lederman: [00:13:27] I actually originally had a concept of the law of reciprocity and it really bothered me and I couldn't figure out why because reciprocity is that concept of I scratch your back, you scratch mine.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:13:38] It can be, but it also has to do with the idea that, "Michelle was really nice. She's so technically minded. She fixed my printer." None of that --

Michelle Lederman: [00:13:46] Definitely did not.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:13:46] None of that ever happened in real life. But then it's like, "You know, I should make this introduction because that would really help her." It just basically in goodwill, it doesn't have to be quid pro quo. A lot of the time I feel like it's just a feeling of reciprocity versus, "Oh crap, now I've got to pay for dinner because they came all this way. It seems to be a little bit less conscious." Quid pro quo, quid pro quo -- neither of us can say it -- is all right, well you know you had me on this program and now I have to go on yours because if not, you've violated a contract that we kind of more or less explicitly have created.

Michelle Lederman: [00:14:25] Yeah and that's all the stuff I want to get rid of.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:14:27] It's yucky.

Michelle Lederman: [00:14:29] It's yucky. When we think about asking for something, my first thing to everybody is if you don't ask, the answer's no. If you ask, you immediately increase your odds. So I encourage people to ask, but there's a right way to ask and a wrong way to ask.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:14:43] Right because I definitely have been asked for a lot of stuff where I go, "I no longer want to talk to this person," or "Yuck, you're going on the black list."

Jason DeFillippo: [00:14:53] You're listening to The Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest Michelle Lederman. We'll be right back after this.

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Jason DeFillippo: [00:17:50] Don't forget we have a worksheet for today's episode so you can make sure that you solidify your understanding of the key takeaways from Michelle Lederman. That link is in the show notes at jordanharbinger.com/podcast. Thanks for listening and supporting the show. To learn more about our sponsors and get links to all the great discounts you just heard, visit jordanharbinger.com/deals. If you'd like some tips on how to subscribe to the show, just go to jordanharbinger.com/subscribe. And now back to our show with Michelle Lederman.

Michelle Lederman: [00:18:17] I actually had somebody in the first five minutes of meeting them, ask for something. I mean, I think I'm still shaking their hand and I was taken aback and I was like -- I had to check myself a little bit because I am somebody who promotes ask. Ask for what you need, ask for what you want but ask them the right way. And she was bold, which I also admire and respect and she asked for what she wanted. I couldn't give her what she wanted right then and there because I didn't know who she was. But what I said was, "Well, why don't I get to know you first."

Jordan Harbinger: [00:18:42] Yeah.

Michelle Lederman: [00:18:43] And I kept an open mind. All right. I kept the mindset of somebody who is relationship-focused and relationship-based and willing to give this person a chance. And what she wanted was an introduction to one of my clients.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:18:53] Oh wow! And she asked her that within five minutes. Wow, asking for a referral within the first few minutes is inappropriate at best.

Michelle Lederman: [00:19:01] Now, this was a former client of hers that she lost touch with a current client of mine and she wanted to be re- attached to them.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:19:08] Nothing wrong with that on its face.

Michelle Lederman: [00:19:10] Nothing wrong that on its face. It was just a little like, you know, off-putting at the moment. And so at the end of our conversation of getting to know her, I said, "So here's what I can do. I don't know you, I don't know your work so I can't endorse that. But I can certainly reach out to the client and say, 'You've worked with them in the past and you wanted to reconnect and see if they're open.'" And she said, "That would be wonderful." And that was something I was comfortable with.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:19:30] You know, I'm thinking about why that social convention seems inappropriate and I think here's what I'm coming up with on the fly here. It devalues their relationship that with you, that doesn't exist yet because it's within the first few minutes. If they're just going, "Oh, you're the stone, I need to get to this other thing that I want." It kind of says, "Here's how I'm going to use you and I have no other, I'm not really that interested in figuring out anything else that we can do together."

Michelle Lederman: [00:19:57] I hear that--

Jordan Harbinger: [00:19:59] It's like a devaluation that happens there.

Michelle Lederman: [00:20:00] So here's what's going to surprise you. I did that, put them back in touch. The client was open to it. She got work from the client. She was happy. She credited me for it. I really didn't do anything.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:20:09] Sure.

Michelle Lederman: [00:20:10] Years later we still stayed in touch. We were in each other's networks. She never really asked me for more. I never asked her for anything, but we kind of were friendly. I put a note out to this group of women that I needed this exercise for some training program. Anybody have any ideas? She showed up with a stack of books to where I was that day, walking through them with me trying to help me.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:20:31] That's amazing. And so rare that it's the exception that proves the rule, I think.

Michelle Lederman: [00:20:36] And so what I learned and that's part of what I put in here is this might've been somebody who was a connector who had that approach and so she felt comfortable making ask because she knew she's also a giver, even if though it wasn't to me right away. It was years later and I really admired her and respected that she showed up for that. And so I trust right -- another mindset -- I trust that people who are putting themselves in that mix might not be getting it to me but they're giving it to someone.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:21:05] I still think I would have a hard time with somebody who came out right away.

Michelle Lederman: [00:21:10] Don't get me wrong. I did, but I was really pleased to have it come full circle. The abundance mindset and things like that we can kind of get into later trust I feel like is almost --

Michelle Lederman: [00:21:19] The abundance is the one like you help craft.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:21:22] Yeah. Well, we can get down there in a minute. Maybe we'll highlight that later. Trust, it definitely makes sense. Having a spirit of generosity is essentially becoming a giver. What does this mean? Because I think a lot of people think they're generous and maybe some of them are and some of them aren't.

Michelle Lederman: [00:21:37] These mindsets kind of play off to each other. That mindset of abundance that will highlight because you are so crucial to that section. That enables us to have a generous spirit when we come from that place of abundance. If we are very conscientious, it enables trust. Trust enables the generous spirit. So I just said, I trusted that people who are doing it and so I was able to still give even though I was --

Jordan Harbinger: [00:22:04] Yeah.

Michelle Lederman: [00:22:05] So these things are really intertwined. It's nonlinear and different mindsets will help support us at different times. A generous spirit is not just about giving. It is absolutely about give because you can give, because you want to, give without expectation of all that stuff we've been talking about. And I believe that, and I'm not minimizing it at all, but I think it's also about being generous with yourself. It's about setting boundaries. If you are going to be able to be conscientious, you need to know what you want to say yes to and know what you want to say no to.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:22:36] Oh God. That's been such a challenge for me. I've spent the last 11, well, now 12 years saying yes to way too much stuff and then the past one year, so the 12th year I finally said, "You know, I'm just going to not do a lot of this." And now that we're entering our 13th year of doing the show, I made an annual plan, which I'm really trying hard to stick to and I'm not doing stuff that's not on there with very few exceptions. Like if a friend says, look, I'm having a birthday weekend, okay maybe I'll put it in the plan, but the whole thing was designed so that in the moment I don't go, "Sure, oh crap, what did I get myself into?" Which is like the story of my life.

Michelle Lederman: [00:23:16] Okay. So my head is going to so many places. Now my annual plan is on a sticky note and I --

Jordan Harbinger: [00:23:22] It's not a very comprehensive plan.

Michelle Lederman: [00:23:24] It is though, because what it does is it enables you to have that to your generosity and enables you to be conscientious at the same time. Because if you have your list of here's the things that I'm working on, I used to be five or six things on lists, now I'm only allowed to have three.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:23:38] Okay.

Michelle Lederman: [00:23:39] And so one of the things this year was the book and one of them might've been to create some leverage in my business. I don't remember. It's in my drawer. It's a sticky note.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:23:47] I need an annual plan on a sticky note that just says no.

Michelle Lederman: [00:23:51] That's the other story I'm going to tell you in a second. And the third thing was something around my kids, my family. And so if it doesn't meet one of those three things --

Jordan Harbinger: [00:23:59] Something about your kids.

Michelle Lederman: [00:24:02] Something around them, you know --

Jordan Harbinger: [00:24:03] Yada, yada, I love my kids and family.

Michelle Lederman: [00:24:04] It was very easy for me to say, well, does it fit? No. And so not getting sidetracked, not getting off on tangents. That's a way for you to have a clear vision, right? And to be conscientious that what you say yes to and what you say no to because a connector follows through. If they say they're going to do it, they're going to do it.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:24:23] Yeah.

Michelle Lederman: [00:24:24] And you trust that and they then usually, as you just said, stretch themselves too thin. So speaking of that little sticky note with the word, "No." My husband wrote that on a sticky note, stuck it on my monitor of my computer. It lasted there for probably a year until it fell off. And it was the first time I felt I had permission to say no. And so sometimes that's a generous spirit as well as being generous with yourself around when you say no to something is saying yes to something else, even if that yes is sitting on your couch and binge watching your favorite show.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:24:58] I think that's a really important point. I think we should highlight this a little bit because I routinely, my inbox, I get a lot of email, especially from women actually because I think women are raised maybe in America to be like more giving to other people and subvert their own needs. I know my mom certainly was like that. I've definitely done my share of that at my old company. It was always like Jordan takes the last leftovers kind of thing. And I know it was fine with that. It's kind of a leaders eat last kind of situation. On the other hand, when I started dating Jen, she was kind of like, "Hey, you realize that you're kind of doing everything and everyone's just like, 'Oh, Jordan will do that. Oh, we don't have to do the hard stuff, Jordan will do it.'" And then you get resented for that kind of stuff over time because people will come to expect it. And then the second you set boundaries -- and I think people who haven't set boundaries, know this intuitively or instinctively, if we don't respect ourselves, if we don't say no, we don't be generous with ourselves for a long enough time. It actually seems in our head to get harder because the consequences start to become real. If you set a boundary the first day, the first week you walk into work, "Look, I'm not going to do seven people's job." They go, "Oh, well you're not the person we're going to push around." But if you've been doing it for seven years and then one day you go, "I've had enough of this crap." It's hard.

Michelle Lederman: [00:26:16] It's hard to move to the shift and to see anything differently. And that's why one of the techniques I teach is that yes or no is never just yes or no. You can say yes if, yes after, yes when -- anything, any qualifying factor over saying yes.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:26:33] It's like improv. Yes, I am but you'll get me a raise. Yes and I want another day of vacation if I'm coming in on this one.

Michelle Lederman: [00:26:39] Yes I can do that after I do this or yes, if you're able to get this re-prioritized. Or yes with training or yes with help. So yes if, yes and, yes after, yes with and no but. And I usually say ban the but.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:26:55] Ban the but.

Michelle Lederman: [00:26:56] But when, you say no, no but softens the no, because it's uncomfortable to say no. It's uncomfortable to get a no, but if you say no but, there's some qualification. No, but I can do this instead. No, but I can maybe do it then. No, but Jordan will do it.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:27:17] Yeah, pretty much. There's always someone further down the totem pole who you can stuff it with. I like the idea that being a connector is on a spectrum because I think a lot of people think about this, of course, in this binary sense where they're like, "Well, I'd love to." We have this networking course that's Six-Minute Networking -- kind of like six-minute abs and I hope people get that, otherwise I just bought those domains for no reason -- but we will throw things on this course and it's a really useful course and people will go, "Ah, well, you know, I'm not really that type of person. One, that's why it's a freaking course, but I digress. Two, what do you mean? Of course you are. I wasn't a young kid who was like, "You know what? I'm going to generate a lot of personal relationships." I'm an only child. That's not how we're wired, man. Or at least that's not how we start off and to be an introvert as well, that's something that I, I definitely never thought of myself as somebody who's going to know a lot of people and here we are. So I'd love to go through this sort of connector spectrum and disabuse people of the idea that everyone has to be a super connector because that's kind of trending now too.

Michelle Lederman: [00:28:28] Yeah. And that's actually really important. I kind of think about this spectrum is the first four levels. So non-connector, emerging, responsive, and an acting. And everyone is on one of those four. Once you're there and we can talk about the upper echelons of connecting, but it is fascinating. My husband, who you just met, natural-born introvert.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:28:48] Seems like a nice guy.

Michelle Lederman: [00:28:49] He's a great guy.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:28:51] He's over there. Apparently, you know, we smell a little marijuana coming through the vent. Hopefully, it's not him.

Michelle Lederman: [00:28:58] We're going to have a great time at dinner.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:29:01] I know!

Michelle Lederman: [00:29:01] So when I first met him, I'm also a little older than him. He was still in high school. No, he was still in high school when I was working my first job after college.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:29:14] Oh wow. Yeah, that is a little unusual. Wait a minute.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:29:18] It was five grades.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:29:20] Yeah. If you put it that way, you know you had graduated college and he was in high school. That's the way some people might put it. Good for him.

Michelle Lederman: [00:29:28] So we met when he was maybe 25 and --

Jordan Harbinger: [00:29:32] Wait in high school.

Michelle Lederman: [00:29:33] No, no, no. I didn't know him in high school. I'm just saying when he was in high school, I had graduated college. That's the age difference.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:29:41] I thought you dated him while he was in high school and you had graduated college.

Michelle Lederman: [00:29:44] Oh no, I'm not that bad.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:29:45] I thought that was a little weird. I just let it go.

Michelle Lederman: [00:29:48] What is it? It's half your age plus seven. I was safe.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:29:54] You have no idea how much I just super judge you right there. I was just like and checking the box.

Michelle Lederman: [00:29:59] It could have been a positive judgment.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:30:02] Yeah it could have been.

Michelle Lederman: [00:30:02] Not sure it was but it could have been. So when he got into business school, I had already been to the same school he went to seven years earlier. He brought me to like the happy hour and he's used to me interjecting and I stood there like a mute. He's like, "What's going on here?" I'm like, "I'm just your wife. I've already done this." These are your friends. You introduced me. And he started to realize that there was something he had to do. And a lot of times people rely on all of the resources they have around them to avoid. If it's not their comfortable place, they avoid it. But the truth is everybody has -- it's all emerging. It's very few people that I think are truly non-connectors.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:30:47] Yeah. None is like -- I'm imagining somebody who sits at home and doesn't leave the house and hates friends.

Michelle Lederman: [00:30:50] And yeah, I think it's somebody who is very antisocial.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:30:56] Yeah.

Michelle Lederman: [00:30:56] Distrusting. Right. So very protective of themselves and their things. They don't see the value in these relationships, very socially isolated. Not only do they not like people, they don't think that they need people. Really, there's not that many people out there that I think really fall into that class.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:31:17] Yeah, I don't even think many of those people would listen to a program like this because half of the content would be not applicable.

Michelle Lederman: [00:31:23] But I think a lot of people listening are probably emerging connectors. An emerging connector is somebody who has some of the mindsets. They see the value, they might not see their value, they might not know how to offer their value. They might be, you know, just kind of testing some of the waters and trying some things out. And that's kind of where my husband started, where he wasn't initiating conversations. He wasn't putting himself out there. He would never think he was antisocial. He would be there. He just wouldn't be talking. He just --

Jordan Harbinger: [00:31:51] Furniture.

Michelle Lederman: [00:31:53] Yeah, he was just part of the scenery. And then as he went through business school, you could start to see him becoming more of a responsive connector. So responsive connector is somebody who will respond to requests. They're really happy to help and they're really happy to do things, and they want to, but they don't think of it themselves. It doesn't come to the front of mind. It's not the way their mind thinks. Oh, if somebody asked him for something, "Sure, I'll do it." And when he was graduating business school and building his network, he's like, "Well, I'm doing this and this person connect me here." I'm like, "Well, what have you done for your network?" And he's like, "Well, nothing. But I would do anything they ask."

Jordan Harbinger: [00:32:28] Right. Okay.

Michelle Lederman: [00:32:29] All right. So that's a responsive connector there. There are waiting --

Jordan Harbinger: [00:32:31] A lot of people are in there where they're like, "Oh, I would totally do that. But they're not being proactive in any way."

Michelle Lederman: [00:32:37] They're not saying, "Well, what do you need?" Or, "Who would you like to meet?" Or, "How can I help you?" They're not asking the questions to try to figure out how they might be able to support somebody.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:32:46] Right, there are not listening needs in any way and supplying that. But they would never turn anyone down if they had the ability to do it.

Michelle Lederman: [00:32:52] If they had the ability to help, they're likely to be very responsive to that. So they're not being curious, but they might be being a little bit more social. So they were in that responsive place.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:33:01] Okay.

Michelle Lederman: [00:33:02] And then we get to the acting connector. So an acting connectors, doing it. And that might be as high as anybody needs to be. They are responding, they are initiating, they're being social and curious. They're, they're asking for what they need, they're adding value. Things are happening, right? Exponential things are happening, whether it's for you or for the people around you, things happen and that's great. That's a great place to be. And for most people, that's as far as you need to get. Sometimes we can take it up a notch and as you take it up a notch, that's when you start to see more and more the advantage. Because people start to see you as a hub -- I actually had them design with like kind of pictorial --

Jordan Harbinger: [00:33:43] Very cool.

Michelle Lederman: [00:33:44] And there's a woman here and a man there.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:33:46] Very inclusive.

Michelle Lederman: [00:33:49] It starts to be that you are a hub and so that you then have more opportunity to help others and you have more access to receive and to connect and to create.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:34:02] You're listening to The Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest Michelle Lederman. We'll be right back.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:34:07] This episode is sponsored in part by Intuit.

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Jordan Harbinger: [00:34:58] This episode is also sponsored by Brother.

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[00:35:56] Thanks for listening and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers keeps us on the air and to learn more and get links all the great discounts you just heard visit jordanharbinger.com/deals. And don't forget that worksheet for today's episode. That link is in the show notes at jordanharbinger.com/podcast. And if you're listening to us on the overcast player for iOS, please click that little star next to the episode. It helps us out. Now for the conclusion of our episode with Michelle Lederman.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:36:23] You know it's funny, the first thing you said was you have the ability to help a lot of other people. Because a lot of folks who are getting -- first starting with the networking and connecting thing -- they go, "Oh, I want to know a ton of people because I can get so many different hookups from all these different people. And the first thing you said was you'll be able to help so many different people, which is a really good sign. Because I think a lot of folks don't realize that the -- and I have not done the math, maybe you have for the book -- the ratio of me helping other people, to me getting something in return is minimum 10 to one. It's probably realistically like 25 to one. Help 25 people, one person who comes back with something useful or not and then like really good opportunities. It's more like 50 or 100 to one where you'll help a hundred people and then people will come back with stuff and it's like, "Great, thanks. Not super useful. I appreciate the sentiment. But then one percent of the time it's like, "Oh my gosh, never would've got this opportunity fell out of the sky. I can't believe this is happening. So grateful that I helped all these other folks because I would never would have found this gem.

Michelle Lederman: [00:37:35] Because it came back to you. And the reason you don't know what the ratio is because you are a connector because you're not thinking about it in terms of numbers. I had never even thought about what the ratio is. I get a lot out of giving and a connector gets a lot out of it. It's not so altruistic. It feels good to be valuable.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:37:54] That's true.

Michelle Lederman: [00:37:54] It feels good to help somebody. You know, I have a keynote where I say how to get what you want. And we talk about why people do things. People aren't doing things for altruism. Most of the time they're doing things yes, because they feel good helping other.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:38:09] Sure.

Michelle Lederman: [00:38:10] But there is still something in it for them. That feeling, so I'm with you, right? You're out there giving and when you can give more -- so now we're moving up to the higher echelon of the spectrum. So we have niche connectors, also sometimes called regional, super connects, and global super connectors.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:38:28] So niche/regional, you say niche/regional because it doesn't matter if I know a bunch of people in California, I might know a ton of podcasters and that's the niche.

Michelle Lederman: [00:38:35] Right.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:38:36] As opposed to the geographic.

Michelle Lederman: [00:38:37] Exactly.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:38:38] Okay.

Michelle Lederman: [00:38:38] So the niche could be geographic. My sister is a niche connector galore. She is in an industry in New Jersey. And everybody in that industry in New Jersey knows my sister. Now she's starting to become a super connector, um, because she's now working with a firm that's national. So now people in California.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:38:56] Of course.

Michelle Lederman: [00:38:56] And other states also now know of my sister. But for many years she was perfectly where she should be as a niche connector within that industry. So you can be a niche within a certain job function, so podcasters. You could be a niche in like all HR people, geographic. It doesn't really matter what that niche is, it's just that, oh, if you want to know somebody in there --

Jordan Harbinger: [00:39:21] This is the person.

Michelle Lederman: [00:39:22] This the person you need to know. Now that's great and you can be really valuable within that circle. But when we need something, it's not always within the area that we work in. And so when you become a super connector, it's really about the breadth and depth. So, how broad, how different, right? And then how deep? Now, I've got friends all over, I've got friends all up and down the hierarchy of an organization. I've got friends with different demographic, geographic, educational. You name the difference. And I know people and so sometimes I don't know who knows what, but I can still go out and say, "Hey, I'm looking for somebody who knows this." And you'll be surprised at who might come back.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:40:04] Super connector is somebody who encompasses a bunch of different niches then, sort of a wider circle.

Michelle Lederman: [00:40:12] I don't even think they have to niche. So you're might be a niche and a super connector, but a super connector it's not like, you know everybody in a certain field. It's just, you know everybody. Like I'm working with a publisher right now and they keep trying to introduce me to people. And I would say the dozen people they introduced me to, there hasn't been a single one, I didn't already know and it's become a joke at this point. They're like, "I'm going to find somebody you don't know yet. And I'm like, "Oh yeah, I know her." "Oh yeah, I know him." And actually, it was somebody, you know, Josh Podek. They tried to introduce me to him. Mike went to business school with him. Like I know him. They introduced me to somebody. I'm like, "She just joined my chapter of the NSA." I'm like, "I know her."

Jordan Harbinger: [00:40:55] Yeah.

Michelle Lederman: [00:40:55] And they're out and the West coast and in Canada and they're introducing me to people all over that I already know. That's the idea of a super connector that you either know them or you know somebody who knows them.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:41:07] Sure. What is one or two degrees on LinkedIn.

Michelle Lederman: [00:41:10] Yeah. And then a global super connector just takes you across your country's borders. So I have connections on multiple continents. Not a lot.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:41:18] Yeah.

Michelle Lederman: [00:41:19] Right. But you know, I know somebody who I'm close to here who has all the connections in South America. So being connected to another connector who has that global hub enables you to have access to that being a super connector.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:41:33] So the last sort of rung global super connector is something I dip my toes into the water of the last three to four years maybe. And what's interesting is it's not this sort of linear growth. It's really an exponential curve where now I'm kind of like the opportunities, the amount of stuff that comes my way is just -- I used to be bored, right? And now I'm like saying no to all kinds of incredible stuff because I have to prioritize.

Michelle Lederman: [00:42:05] Isn't that great.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:42:05] It's really nice. Yeah, it's really nice, and of course it's like a high quality problem.

Michelle Lederman: [00:42:10] It's the advantage.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:42:10] Yeah.

Michelle Lederman: [00:42:10] Right. That's the connector's advantage and the idea of it being exponential, it continues to happen, right? So it is exponential at every level as you go up. And the more depth and the more breadth of your network, the more advantages you will find for yourself and for your network.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:42:28] Right. It's not just about what you can get or what I can get. What I found is, you know, yeah, sure, it's nice to be like, "Oh, impossible to get tickets for such and such. Cool. I'm calling a favor." But I never do that. What I find more likely is someone goes, "Look Jordan, I know this isn't your thing, but I really need to meet somebody who knows how to book a theater on Broadway and I have no --" And I'm like, "Hold on, I know the person who can totally do that." Let me call Wendy. And then suddenly it's like this is the guy who books all these Broadway theaters.

Michelle Lederman: [00:43:00] That's the fun thing. For me, it's like a puzzle.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:43:02] Yeah.

Michelle Lederman: [00:43:03] I love kind of figuring out like, "Who would go with here?" And you just start moving around the puzzle pieces and I always say my synapses start going as soon as I talked to somebody, like what do they need? How can I help?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:43:14] I know it is fun because you find somebody who will go, I can't believe you got my kid a job in the niche that they like. We've been trying forever. We've sent in resume dah, dah, dah." Because it looks like you just made a quick phone call and like suddenly they got a job offer and kind of that is what happened. But yeah, I never thought I would ever be that person. Like my dad's an auto worker, my mom's a public school teacher from Detroit. Like I'm not the kind of guy who makes a quick call and gets anything done. Right?

Michelle Lederman: [00:43:41] You know, it's funny you were saying earlier about how we grow up and how it impacts.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:43:46] Yeah.

Michelle Lederman: [00:43:47] I was afraid of public speaking. It's now what I do for a living.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:43:51] Right, it's now what you do for a living.

Michelle Lederman: [00:43:52] I mean, biggest fear absolutely. Was talking in front of a group of people, like why would anybody want to do that? And I was the kid that had a chip on the shoulder, like I'm so --

Jordan Harbinger: [00:44:04] Really, that's funny.

Michelle Lederman: [00:44:04] -- ready for a fight because I --

Jordan Harbinger: [00:44:06] You fought a lot? You're like four foot nine.

Michelle Lederman: [00:44:09] 10 and a quarter.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:44:10] Right. four foot 10 and a quarter as an adult.

Michelle Lederman: [00:44:12] As an adult. I got into one or two physical fights.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:44:16] How did that work out?

Michelle Lederman: [00:44:20] Well for me.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:44:20] Yeah. All right.

Michelle Lederman: [00:44:22] Small but scrappy.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:44:23] That sounds what it sort of sounds like.

Michelle Lederman: [00:44:25] But really because I was mean.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:44:26] Oh that's funny.

Michelle Lederman: [00:44:28] And so when I had the chip on my shoulder and kind of a lot of anger and didn't have the easiest upbringing, just always very defensive, things weren't going well and things continued not to go well because that's how I was approaching life. And I know you haven't wanted to delve into the abundance chapter, but that for me is like the hardest mindset when you come from a place and grew up with scarcity to adopt that mindset, which is why I really loved that conversation we had around it and some of the lessons that you got have brought to the table.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:45:04] Let's dive in there because whenever I hear abundance, it almost is like one of those alarm bell words because it sort of sounds Pollyanna, like abundance believe, hashtag believe, you know, it's like get out of here with that garbage.

Michelle Lederman: [00:45:17] I didn't grow up that I could feel that way. Like there's no rose-colored glasses in my childhood. And for me, abundance is not about the Pollyanna. It's not like everything's going to be great. It's okay. It might not be great now but I believe in the possibility that not looking like this forever.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:45:34] Okay.

Michelle Lederman: [00:45:35] And so it is staying open to the possibility is one way for me to think about abundance. It is about there is enough. And for me, trust really enables abundance. So I trust that people aren't out to get me anymore, whereas I used to really feel that way and I was the first person to be like, "Give me your manager."

Jordan Harbinger: [00:46:00] Oh, you're that person.

Michelle Lederman: [00:46:01] I was that person was because -- I don't that fight felt really empowering to me and that fight felt like, at least I was getting some of those pent up emotions out.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:46:10] Right.

Michelle Lederman: [00:46:11] And what I realized was it wasn't working for me and it was a really big shift to feeling like closed off was really protective and safe and I felt good about it to vulnerability and vulnerability was like, "God, that's the most awful word you can ever imagine."

Jordan Harbinger: [00:46:29] Sure.

Michelle Lederman: [00:46:30] Until I realized that vulnerability isn't about weakness, it's about openness. And that vulnerability can lead to credibility and self-disclosure can lead to connection. And so when I started to embrace that people responded to me differently. And so it doesn't mean that you still don't go to those places in your head of like fear and hold on to the table for a moment, but then you say, "All right, I get where that's coming from, but here's where I want it to go." And that's the shift and it's not that, you know, feel like, "Yes, everything's lovely. And I love the world."

Jordan Harbinger: [00:47:05] Right. That's kind of where I was. It's like you felt like universe provides. Like does it? Does universe care about you? No.

Michelle Lederman: [00:47:11] I believe you control your own destiny, but I think you do that by thinking a certain way and acting a certain way. And that's what this is all about. And you know, two of the things that stuck with me in our conversation was acknowledge the fear. It was like you gave us permission to acknowledge that it exists. And I think that's the first step is like you're not a bad person because you have a moment of doubt or fear or defensiveness or protectiveness or whatever it is that scarcity brings you, but it doesn't mean you have to stay there. And the other thing that you said that really resonated for me was don't judge yourself in relation to other people.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:47:45] Oh yeah.

Michelle Lederman: [00:47:46] Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:47:47] I mean, I constantly struggle with that.

Michelle Lederman: [00:47:50] And the struggle is real.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:47:52] That's right.

Michelle Lederman: [00:47:52] The struggle is real. I think the fact that it is a struggle is what enables the, the mindset because it was just so easy for you to think that way. You and your little pixie dust cloud -- it's not real.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:48:07] The antidote for me has actually been sort of counterintuitively to help a bunch of other people. I was just having lunch with James Altucher today. I don't know if you know who that is. And he has another podcast and it's very similar in many ways to mine. We interview people where a lot of the guests are the same. And a lot of people will go, "Oh, you know, I know he's competition but you should check out James interview with so-and-so." But James and I are friends and we actually hook each other up with guests all the time and he's a great dude. I just did an interview in his apartment earlier. I went to his comedy club and like I will gladly send him business, guests, referrals, anything and it helps me to not compare to him and I think probably vice versa because now I'm on his team instead of feeling the competition and I've sort of had to trick my mind into helping people where I normally might want to be like, oh well I actually want to, I want to get a leg up. And it's so much nicer to have that relationship.

Michelle Lederman: [00:49:05] And more valuable.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:49:07] More valuable for everyone.

Michelle Lederman: [00:49:08] That's the mindset of abundance. I always say I don't have any competitors. I have strategic partners there and it's the idea that there's enough to go around. There are so many podcasts out there, but there's also so many listeners out there and just because I listen to yours doesn't mean I'm not going to listen to somebody else's or vice versa.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:49:24] That took me a long time to realize that too. Yeah, like the overlap between my audience, James Altucher's audience is significant, but that's okay because him and I are very, very different people and we have a healthy overlap in audience. But very rarely is someone going to go, "Yeah, just listen to the one. I don't need the other one." And if they do, it's fine. It wasn't because of the one that they stopped, it's because I'm either for them or I'm not. That's okay.

Michelle Lederman: [00:49:50] But abundance is also great in that reverse because, "Hey, I like this podcast." If he likes this podcast abundantly, I get more. So people like more and more of the things that they like. So when you are looking at somebody who is similar to you, you can think of it that way. And it's the idea that there's enough.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:50:10] Being a connector is also not just, doesn't just bring the benefits to your business and things like that, but actually you've found that connectors are healthier, happier, get better jobs, promotions, business. Let's dive into this a little because I don't think many people think I'm going to live longer because I'm great connector.

Michelle Lederman: [00:50:28] Yeah, so one of the things I do in the beginning of the book is kind of just proof of concept. Let me just prove to you that these relationships matter in case you don't believe me. Think of whatever you're working towards. And sometimes it is happiness or health or a job or a business or a promotion or a raise or whatever it might be. And there's statistics and all the ways that it helps. But when it comes to happiness and health, that's where it's surprising. There's a researcher out of Brigham Young University, Julianne Holt-Lunstad -- I hope I'm pronouncing it right.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:50:56] Wow.

Michelle Lederman: [00:50:56] Yes. It's a mouthful. And she found that social isolation has the same effect on mortality as smoking 15 cigarettes a day.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:51:04] Oh, yuck.

Michelle Lederman: [00:51:05] I mean, is that crazy?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:51:06] Yeah.

Michelle Lederman: [00:51:07] I mean it literally affects your health when you don't have strong relationships in your life. It also affects your productivity at work. People that have strong work relationships will feel, I think it's a 50 percent increase in their productivity and it's predictor of happiness on the job. So --

Jordan Harbinger: [00:51:28] That makes sense.

Michelle Lederman: [00:51:29] Having friends at work, you will feel happier.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:51:32] We also know that 85 percent of jobs come through networking. And I've seen this in a pie chart because I was giving a presentation also about connecting and networking at a university. And I looked up these stats and I thought -- my prediction was, man, so many people are going to get a job through a recruiter or one of those websites. I am not supposed to name them because I've done that. But there's all these websites where you upload your resume and things like that, except for very specific niches, they can be very ineffective. There are better ones now, but they can be pretty tough.

Michelle Lederman: [00:52:07] And here's the thing with that statistic, and I've been watching statistics for at least a decade at this point. It was around 60 percent when I started. So it's only going up and originally it was about a 60 percent for any level and it was I think 90 percent of the executive level --

Jordan Harbinger: [00:52:23] Of course.

Michelle Lederman: [00:52:24] -- from networking. But now they're just kind of getting an overall statistics of 85 percent of any level, which is a huge jump from 60 percent. If you think about like the recruiters, that also can be from networking. Like which recruiter you get in with, there's some really elite ones that my husband got in with when he got a CIO position at a really cool company. There's networking in combination with multiple avenues, but if you think about it, those computers are looking at all the resumes now. You don't even get to a person, you don't even get to the desk. Right?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:52:59] Right.

Michelle Lederman: [00:53:00] So how do you get to the desk and then you have to look at those things as multiple avenues to get to the same place. So who you know, who can mention your name, who can connect you to that right recruiter. That right recruit liking you enough to pitch you and speak well of you, it is the relationship, even if it's through a recruiter.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:53:20] I want to wrap with a practical and this will go on the worksheet. We do worksheets for every episode. So this be in there. So if you're driving or if you're at the gym, you don't have to write this down, you can go to the show notes and get the worksheet for the episode. But this is a mindset mission investing time in people and it sounds a little bit like something that would be in our Six-Minute Networking thing. So I may steal it and put it in there and give you credit for it. But in the meantime, I'd love it if you take us through this because I think a lot of people go, "Yeah, I've got to do that networking connection stuff." And they just kind of never do or this goes on the shelf with get in shape, get married and have kids, start a family whatever.

Michelle Lederman: [00:53:59] Well, one of the things I try to do in the book and in each of the mindset chapters is to have some way for them to take it from the theoretical into their lives. And you know, that's the mindset mission is, is how can I make this happen. So a lot of times the excuse for not connecting, not following up, and not building relationships and focusing on it is I don't have the time and I've got too many things going on and I get it. I do too. So when we think about how do we invest time and how can we be efficient with that time, there's different ideas that I put forth in there and I don't remember all of them off the top of my head. So I'll throw a few out and you can tell me which ones are your favorites as well.

[00:54:32] One of the things that I love the most is a tip from one of our experts in the book, Dorie Clark. And she has what I call Dorie dinners where she will, "Hey, I can't have dinner with 20 people that are always asking me, I don't eat out 20 days in a row. But instead I'm going to invite all 20 of those people to a restaurant on the same night. Now not only do I get to catch up with everybody in that one-hour or two-hour period of time, they all get to connect with each other." And I'm the hub. She's the super connector in the middle of all that, making that happen. I've gone to a couple of Dorie dinners and I have made some great friends, and some people who were on the other end of the table who I didn't even get to talk to, I followed up with after and said, "Hey, I didn't get to talk to you at Dorie dinner," and ended up having great conversations and connections and things happening from there.

[00:55:15] So one of the things is thinking about how do I use my time efficiently? Think about the things that you already do. All right, are you working out? Are you walking a dog? Are you dropping your kids off at the playground, having to stand on it? Can you do it with somebody else? I used to meet up with my mentor who's a CEO of a company and I would dress up and I'd be all ready for this and he'd be like, "Hey, you want to take a walk?" And so he liked to walk --

Jordan Harbinger: [00:55:42] Not in these shoes.

Michelle Lederman: [00:55:44] Well, then I started to learn, that I dressed for my walks, and we would go before the Highline New York City was built, we tried to break in, police stopped us, but it was really fun.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:55:53] So you're going to walk on some subway tracks.

Michelle Lederman: [00:55:53] We walked all around the city and we would just catch up by walking and he got his afternoon walk and we got to catch up and it was an efficient use of time. So thinking about the things that you do and who you can include in those things so that you can kind of make sure you're investing your time well.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:56:11] I love the idea of taking an activity you're already doing and meeting up with someone. There's a lot of people that play sports together or go to the gym, but you don't necessarily think that you turn that into some kind of meeting, which is actually -- it could ruin the experience, but it could also, you just have to curate well.

Michelle Lederman: [00:56:31] Yeah. And you have to think about what are those things that feel right. So I go to a gym and there's a lot of people who could be business contacts at my gym and I'm always in the class. And in the class you get paired up with things. And so I might be like, okay, well I'm going to go stand in that group today. And you know, so you're going around the stations or whatever they call them.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:56:51] Circuit training?

Michelle Lederman: [00:56:52] Circuit. Thank you.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:56:52] I can tell you're a real athlete. That you're really into it.

Michelle Lederman: [00:56:53] Yeah. Three days a week. And I'll be flipping tires to somebody over there and you can have a few words, but what I do instead is, okay, I'm going to be sweaty, but right afterwards we'll go get something to eat because I need to eat. I'll be starving after the gym. And they're already sweaty too. So I just extend that time a half hour and I get it all in.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:57:13] Yeah. I know a couple of people that will actually set up lots of different activities with people that they're already going to do. One of the things that people hate about doing something like Six-Minute Networking, which we used to call Level One, they'll go, "I don't want to get responses from people and then have to go out to like 20 different coffees in a month." And the answer is yeah, neither do I. You should not do that. If you are commuting the same direction to work, offer to swing by and get somebody and they're like, "Oh my gosh, carpool." Right? Or go workout during your lunch hour together or set up some sort of activity that you have together because there are so many experiences like this or the Dorie dinner type situation. And there are amazing ways to make yourself a hub for this for this. Some people get really daring with it. I'm on Silicon Valley, so you'll see people who are like, "Who's going to Burning Man?" Yeah, axe throwing. There is a lot of that or people will be like, "Hey, I don't know if you're into this," but they'll float out some sort of little idea and the people who are sort of kind of into that same thing will slyly raise their hand and you'll end up like, oh, we're all here to learn about psychedelics. You know, and it's kind of like you bond over something that's of mutual interest, but it actually creates some other really good connection that ends up being really great for everybody either from business or professional personal standpoint.

Michelle Lederman: [00:58:40] I hired somebody from the dog park.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:58:42] Really?

Michelle Lederman: [00:58:43] Really.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:58:43] Wow.

Michelle Lederman: [00:58:44] I was at the dog park and you're standing there and your dogs are playing. You can be on your phone or you can chat with somebody who clearly has a common interest as you and I met somebody who turns out, she was in my field. She was looking to expand what she needs. I needed more trainers. She's now on my team.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:58:59] Perfect. Yeah, I think there's a lot of what I would call Instagram time that's being wasted on Instagram. And you can do a lot of things such as some of these exercises that are going to be on the worksheet for this episode. And also the things that we put into Six-Minute Networking that are designed to take a few minutes per day because otherwise will kill that time and then you will come home and go, "But I don't have time to network and have time to create connections."

Michelle Lederman: [00:59:25] I want to give you one more thing on the invest time.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:59:27] Please.

Michelle Lederman: [00:59:27] So, you have to eat every day. How many times are you eating at your desk? How many times are you running out and you're eating while you're on a call? One day a week, make sure you eat with somebody in your office, in the cafeteria. I don't care. Just don't sit at your desk every day for lunch. Think about those times that you're already inefficient, right? You can't really do that much when one hand is scooping it in. So, Friday at 4:00 p.m., Friday from 4:00 p.m. is the least productive hour of the work week. They've done research on this.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:00:00] Oh yeah. I don't need the research.

Michelle Lederman: [01:00:01] Right.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:00:01] Yeah.

Michelle Lederman: [01:00:02] We know.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:00:03] Got it.

Michelle Lederman: [01:00:03] Right. I for me, post-lunch food digesting brain coma, like forget it, so that's a really great time for me to send some emails. So have one little habit that you can do at a certain time of day or a certain day of the week and just do it whether it's I'm going to send five emails out, I'm going to make one phone call, I'm going to have one lunch. Pick one of those little things and just make a habit out of it and you will see your relationships build.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:00:29] Yeah. It's that sort of one percent compounded type of setup. And we'll outline any practicals that we had today during the worksheet. Thank you very much. And the book, we'll also link in the show notes.

Michelle Lederman: [01:00:41] Great to be back.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:00:44] Great big thank you to Michelle, been a friend of mine for a long time. Her book is definitely going to be worthwhile. She's just such a smart person, super sweet, really good at connecting, really good at making intros. Just I would say a natural at this except I know that she's worked really hard for that and that might come across as a little insulting, but the book is called The Connector’s Advantage: 7 Mindsets to Grow Your Influence and Impact. Definitely worth a read there. We will link that in the show notes as we always do.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:01:11] And if you want to know how I managed to book all these great people, I manage huge networks of folks actually personal and professional and it's been the single biggest and greatest lever in my life to having -- honestly just being happy with those around me, leveling up, creating better business for myself and my family. I'm teaching you how to do that stuff or at least the drills and exercises at a very basic level. Takes a few minutes per day. Go to jordanharbinger.com/course and grab Six-Minute Networking. It's just a few minutes a day. No excuses. Anybody can do this. We've got super busy people doing this and I just got done teaching it to a bunch of military special forces and these guys are literally like dodging bullets over in Iraq and Afghanistan and they're still managing to do it. So yeah, I know you're really busy with your new stuff, but get after it. jordanharbinger.com/course.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:02:00] Speaking to building relationships. Tell me your number one takeaway here from Michelle Lederman. I'm at @JordanHarbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. By the way, there's a video of this interview on our YouTube channel at jordanharbinger.com/youtube as well.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:02:15] This show is produced in association with PodcastOne and this episode was co-produced by Jason "Super-Duper-Super Connector" DeFillippo and Jen Harbinger, show notes and worksheets by Robert Fogarty, I'm your host Jordan Harbinger. Remember, we rise by lifting others. And the fee for the show is that you share it with friends when you find something useful, which should be in every episode. So please share the show with those you love and even those you don't. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show, so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:02:45] A lot of people ask me which podcast I listen to and recommend and one of those is The SDR Show. That's fun to tune in for sure with my friend Ralph Sutton and I got Ralph here today with me. Ralph, you recently had Dane Cook on the show, which is a pretty good get.

Ralph Sutton: [01:02:58] Yeah, I was really lucky to have him. He did one podcast when he was in New York City, through a little miscalculation, we only had him for about 45 minutes, but man, talk about comedy gold and a true legend, one of only 10 people to sell out Madison Square Garden in the history of comedy. Only 10 comics who had done it and he honored us with his presence. He's a super cool dude.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:03:18] Yeah, I remember watching him, especially when I was in college, just in grad school, just tons of it over and over and over. And I think I saw them live, you know, the recording of him doing Madison Square Garden. I just thought like, wow, this guy can make a whole giant ass room full of people laugh. There's a real skill to that and in your interview with him is -- we'll link to that in the show notes. The SDR Show, wherever you find podcasts. Thanks for Ralph.