1318: Guillaume Dulude | Tribal Truths for Modern Minds

1318: Guillaume Dulude | Tribal Truths for Modern Minds

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Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker through long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, spies, CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, performers, even the occasional Russian chess grandmaster, Hollywood filmmaker, or cold case homicide investigator.

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That'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit jordanharbinger.com/start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started today on the show. If you ever wake up and think, you know what would really spice up my life? Wandering into the African wilderness with a bow, a [00:01:00] chicken, and zero ability to communicate, hoping a tribe doesn't kill me on sight.

Yeah, me neither. But today's guest, that's a Tuesday. This guy is trekking into the middle of nowhere. No GPS, no language, no backup plan, just vibes, a cameraman, and the faint hope that the local tribe interprets guy with weapons and gifts as friendly visitor, and not early dinner. All right, today we're talking how you can actually approach a tribe without getting skewered.

Why giving gifts can backfire and turn you into a walking Amazon Prime subscription. Hunting baboons with a bow like it's casual, and then eating one of the hands like a snack, getting stung, poison, dehydrated, possibly infected, and calling it healing after a breakup. And just when you think it couldn't get more intense.

Alligators, bullet ants, crocodiles that eat children, rituals that make frat hazing look like a spa day. This episode is what happens when National Geographic meets this seemed like a good idea at the time. Here we go with Guillaume Dulude. How would you explain what you do? Because it's easy to say like, oh, he films a reality TV show where he goes and [00:02:00] finds isolated tribes, but that's only part of the picture.

Guillaume Dulude: Uh, you can introduce me as a doctor in psychology that I do psychology differently.

Jordan Harbinger: Very differently.

Guillaume Dulude: I want reality. I want what works in reality. Reality, I want proof.

Jordan Harbinger: You call me up out of nowhere, more or less, and you say, Hey, I have a show where I go and I, I walk into the middle of the jungle or the desert, and I find a tribe that, we don't know exactly where they're going to be or exactly where they are. And then I just try to live with them for, what is it, a couple weeks?

Guillaume Dulude: Yes. Depending, but yes, from a week to two weeks.

Jordan Harbinger: How did you get the idea to do that? Because it, it seems, first of all, a lot could go wrong, but I don't know. It's not my usual vacation first on the list is not wandering into the Tanzanian desert to eat things that I find on the ground.

Yeah.

Guillaume Dulude: It started when I was 20 years old, I was training through the Olympics for swimming. Oh wow. So that was my big dream and I was not good enough. I wasn't fast enough and I got [00:03:00] hurt and I lost my funding. My whole life was about sports. When you're involved into sports, the only thing you see is sports.

You see yourself having a career and you don't have any plan B. When I was 18, 20 years old, I didn't know exactly what I wanted to do. I knew that I loved performance, I loved humans, I loved the brain. That's pretty much it. And so when it stopped and swimming, I asked myself like, what am I going to do? And I saw a psychologist actually, and that helped me figure out what would be my next step.

And the next step was like, I'm going to try to go around the world with no money, so that's going to be my first challenge. Try to go around the world with no money and I'm going to just rely on communication to survive. So that was the plan. So I'm going to try to. Talk to people, get accepted by people, go live with them and see if I can survive like this.

So that's how it started.

Jordan Harbinger: Look for people who are not watching on YouTube, you're like a pretty big [00:04:00] French Canadian dude. Are you just saying, Hey, can I sleep in your backyard? How are you traveling with no money?

Guillaume Dulude: You don't need much money. If you know how to create good connection and if you know how to contribute to someone else's life, you need to be valuable.

You say, Hey, look, I need some help. Can I sleep at your place? I'm ready to do that for you. I'm ready to help you out for that. What do you need? And so you create partnerships and you create relationships, and you create trust. And that's how I got by the first whole year where I did this trip.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, you did that for a year.

Wow. Where did you go? Did you go to the usual suspects or were you traveling the more off the beaten path type of places?

Guillaume Dulude: Yes, absolutely. I went straight to Africa. I've always been attracted by nature, animals, expeditions, tribes. But at this time, I was 20 years old. I was, it wasn't quite clear yet, but during this first trip, I went to an expedition.

I did an expedition in Kenya and I've spent some times with the Maasai tribe and it [00:05:00] really changed my life. I spent a few weeks with them and I was sleeping in their little hut and it was like a thousand degrees inside the hut. And you sleep with the goat and it smells horrible. And there are insects coming out of the walls, which is made of mud and shit.

The insects are coming out and going on you during the night, and I was sleeping between one guy and her wife and her kid and the ghost. And I couldn't sleep for like a week. And I was like, this is the dream for me. I'm living something important and didn't know exactly what it was, but I knew I put my finger on something and I was hooked.

I was like, I want to know. How do you live traditionally where we come from as human beings. And I think that's always been my quest. Who are we? Who am I? Where do we come from? What's the future? If we know where we come from, can we make a better future? How do we think? How must we think? I was hooked. So the rest, it's history.

Jordan Harbinger: Have you seen that Instagram account, messai Boys? It's like these four or five [00:06:00] guys from that tribe and they go to New York or whatever and they're like trying to eat pizza and figure out how to eat pizza. It's really funny because they're really from Kenya. It's not LARPing, they're not cosplaying. Most of their videos are from Kenya.

And I guess, I don't know how it happened, but somebody was like, go to New York and come try pizza and stuff. And they're just like really out of place. Because they're wearing traditional tribal, almost like a cloth robe kind of thing. And they're walking around Manhattan and they're just like. Trying to communicate what that looks like to them.

And you can just see it in their face. They're times square and it's, we don't have this in our mud hut in Kenya. That's the inverse. They're doing the opposite of what you're doing. Yeah, it was kind of funny to see this is an incredible adventure that you went on, so, okay. So you find yourself in this mud hut, you find yourself inspired to do more of it.

Did you stay in Africa for a while? Was that the plan?

Guillaume Dulude: Yes. I spent maybe six months in Africa during this first trip and after I went all the way [00:07:00] up back up to Russia and just before that to Ukraine. And I got a kind of an infection to my foot. And by the time I arrived to Moscow, I couldn't walk.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh dang.

Guillaume Dulude: So I went to the hospital in Moscow and it was like a nightmare. First I was in the waiting room, I don't know what to expect, and there's a guy like mopping the floor, you know, eating an apple. And he was like, okay, it's your turn. I'm like, okay. And the same guy sits down, is like, so what's up? I'm like, is there a doctor?

I'm like, yeah, it's me.

Jordan Harbinger: The doctor was mopping the floor and eating an apple. Oh my,

Guillaume Dulude: okay. Your doctor cool. Are you sure? Yeah. The guy looked like 22 years old, and I was like, you sure? Does you have a supervisor or anything? He says, no, no, that's me. I'm the chief here. It's like, oh, okay. And you just looked at my foot and said, okay, so we're just going to cut you open this afternoon.

I'm like, look, I have a backpack. I'm walking. Just give me some antibiotics or something. And he says, no, no. I'm going to cut your foot [00:08:00] or you're going to lose your foot.

Jordan Harbinger: I want a second opinion.

Guillaume Dulude: Yeah, but that's it. It was like, don't you have like, oh

Jordan Harbinger: man,

Guillaume Dulude: a surgeon? Like he says, yeah, I'm the surgeon. Oh, you're the surgeon.

Yeah. Like, okay. And he says like, I have a trip. I need to go to the cottage to do some horseback riding in the afternoon, so I'm busy, so if I could cut you up right now. So I'm like, what the hell? So I go to the surgery and there's like nothing, and I go on the table and he says, look, the anesthesiologist cannot be there because he's busy, so we're going to just do it without, and I'm like, are you serious?

He says, yeah, this is,

Jordan Harbinger: what year is this?

Guillaume Dulude: 2005.

Jordan Harbinger: Because this sounds like Siberia 1955.

Guillaume Dulude: Yes.

Jordan Harbinger: This is crazy. Okay. Sample size of one, but this is the hospital, Moscow in 2005. What is the hospital like in Novo? SK in 2005?

Guillaume Dulude: I have no idea.

Jordan Harbinger: Or is it just [00:09:00] like They don't have one or a similar setup except for the guy is also drunk

Guillaume Dulude: and he's a dentist

Jordan Harbinger: and he's

Guillaume Dulude: a, and he's, you know.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Guillaume Dulude: So I'm on this table, you know, and they want to cut my foot and there's like a nurse, she's eating gum like this.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh. Like twisting it around. Oh

Guillaume Dulude: my God.

Like

Jordan Harbinger: this.

Guillaume Dulude: So I'm like, okay, I'm going to die, but not up to me anymore. And I go on the bed and they start cutting me up. I'm trying to film myself because it's hurting so much.

I'm trying to focus to do a task. I'm trying to film myself. So I'm filming the surgery while it's happening, and I taped my camera in my hand because I'm fainting. So I'm fainting. I get back up, oh my God. And I filming again and he's like, can you stop moving? I'm trying to work here. I was like, yeah, I'm trying.

And he's like, are you all all like that? Canadians,

Jordan Harbinger: you know, like wimpy passing

Guillaume Dulude: out Exactly, exactly.

Jordan Harbinger: Surgery without

Guillaume Dulude: anesthesia. And at the end he just, he cut me open and [00:10:00] after he says, okay, so uh, where's the wire? Did you bring the wire? I'm like, the what? The wire to stitch me up.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, it's BYO.

Guillaume Dulude: See, bring your own stuff.

Jordan Harbinger: Bring your own medical

Guillaume Dulude: supplies. Yes. That's the thing. It's free, but you bring your own stuff. I didn't know. So he says, okay, so we're just going to put stuff in it, into the your foot, into the cutting.

Jordan Harbinger: Like what stuff? What do you mean? Stuff

Guillaume Dulude: like, um, like old

Jordan Harbinger: newspapers. Whatcha talking

Guillaume Dulude: about? Almost newspaper.

All like, just like a cotton or something and you just put it inside and you didn't stitch me up because I didn't bring it and I spent like a week and a half there.

Jordan Harbinger: You think he would've checked before he cut you open? Hey, you brought the wire that I need to sew you up with, right? Nah, that slipped his mind.

I want to hear from my Russian listeners. Is this normal or did you just go to the worst hospital in all of Moscow? Because look, we've all heard about the Soviet Union and yada, yada, yada. This is 2005. Is that a normal experience? Because that's actually crazy to me.

Guillaume Dulude: I don't think so. Like even to [00:11:00] me like thinking about it, it doesn't seem real.

There's no way that's the standard.

Jordan Harbinger: It just can't be BYO medical supplies in 2005 in Moscow. I would expect that type of thing to happen in rural Kazakhstan where you've also been or something like that. Hey, we don't really have a lot of doctors here. We're going to make due not, this is totally normal and everybody knows that this is what it's like.

No, even a regular doctor's office at least has medical supplies. So this did not dissuade you from traveling. It made you want to do it more.

Guillaume Dulude: Yes.

Jordan Harbinger: You're wired differently than most. I think.

Guillaume Dulude: I would never do that again, of course. But I'm addicted to discovery. I think I'm addicted to new cultures, new experience and the whole psychology around a culture.

It was too late. And no matter what, if they cut me open, I'm going to keep doing,

Jordan Harbinger: I guess you're lucky you still have your foot after

Guillaume Dulude: Yes.

Jordan Harbinger: Experience

Guillaume Dulude: like that? Yes. I have a big scar, but yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: That's crazy to me.

Guillaume Dulude: When I arrived in Thailand, like a month later, it started to get swollen again. I just got some [00:12:00] antibiotics and in two days it was gone and the doctor there told me like it was absolutely pointless to cut you open.

For sure. Of course, it's not a real medical procedure, so

Jordan Harbinger: I feel like you just found a random janitor who was like, I'm going to tell this guy I'm a doctor. It's possible I'm going to cut him open because I'm a sick bastard. And then not sew him back up and just see what happens. Sounds a little dicey. I don't know.

I'm going to go with that. That's not the usual experience. Okay, and we're going to flash forward a little bit because I watched every episode of the latest season of your show. So this show, I've never seen anything like it. Is the name just Tribal? Tribal? Okay. I watched it with subtitles, which thankfully your wife was kind enough to

Guillaume Dulude: Yes.

Jordan Harbinger: Create for me. I've never seen anybody do this. I've never seen anybody go just wander into. The middle of nowhere and show up essentially on the doorstep of a tribe and just be like, Hey guys, I'm going to hang out with you for a week. It just seems like [00:13:00] a dangerous kind of thing to do. So the first episode, one Zabe.

Where are they? Because there's a drone shot or something. If there's nothing around you, you're a dot and a desert.

Guillaume Dulude: It's in Tanzania. The capital is ausa and it's I think a hundred kilometers at least from there. So it's in Tanzania, it's quite a remote area. It has a bit tribe. It's are one of the last tribes of hunters and gatherers today, still living traditionally.

They're probably the last one with bows and arrows. And So

Jordan Harbinger: nomadic, are they nomadic, basically

Guillaume Dulude: semi nomadic? Yes. So they come back to some huts for certain parts of the year and after they pack up for another part of the year and they move out because they eat also fruits and roots. So once they have eaten everything around, they move around like this.

Jordan Harbinger: I see. Man, it's crazy. When you go to this place, first of all, you said never arrive empty handed.

Guillaume Dulude: Yes.

Jordan Harbinger: Which is a rule we still have today in most cultures. And you buy this chicken and. I was laughing in the first probably five minutes of the [00:14:00] episode because the car drops you off the road ends with whatever you would call a road.

It's like a dirt stretch. It ends at some, I don't know, maybe it's a farm or something, and you're just like, All right, bye. And you're walking and you're carrying like a cardboard box with a chicken in it. And I'm thinking to myself, you don't even know where you're going. You don't know where they are.

And they're going to just see this big white dude with a bow and arrow in a fricking chicken. What is your plan?

Guillaume Dulude: The plan is before I get there, I don't go like randomly and just walk and try to just stumble upon a tribe. There's some kind of intel that tells me, like some locals that, oh, they've seen them the last time in this area, in this area.

So we have some good hypothesis of where they might be. So I'm trying to get to this location and try to see if I cannot see any signs of life, like tracks or signs of old fires or footsteps and stuff like that. Or little [00:15:00] passage, little roads where they could walk.

Jordan Harbinger: But you're doing this on foot though.

Like people are like, okay, fine. You know where they are. Netflix's saying, Hey, I think they're in North San Jose. So you're like, oh, I'll just wander around North San Jose looking for footprints or burned wood in a pile. You are looking for a needle in a haystack, man. You're looking for acute signs of human life in a desert while taking care of a live chicken.

It's so like ridiculous. In the beginning I was like,

Guillaume Dulude: but to be honest, there's some help and preparation before, because as you say, find someone in the city, find someone in New York, good luck. Go with your backpack and look around. Yeah. You know, we need to have kind of a good idea of where they might be.

It has to be like within 10 kilometers by 10 kilometers, something like that. And after we have a good guess. And normally people know where they are because they know each other in the jungle and the savanna people know each other even from hundreds of Kilomet. Oh yeah, I have a cousin over there in a hundred kilometers in this tribe, this village.

[00:16:00] So there are all kinds of a network and they can direct you. So that's why it's good to be able to have good social skills, to be able to connect with people because people will give you information. So to be able to find someone or a group of people, you need to have a lot of discussion with many people and you get closer and closer and closer.

And after like there's this moment where, you know, and we see that at the beginning of this episode, I scream, I test something and I hear a scream back. That's it. The show is on now.

Jordan Harbinger: It's pretty damn cool when you're like, I think that's them. And then you're not like. Hey, I'm over here, kind of deal. And then they give you like a resounding confirmation back.

It's got to feel pretty good. Because How long were you out there wandering around before you found them?

Guillaume Dulude: I would say a week, maybe.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh wow, okay. I didn't fully grasp that. I thought he found them like the next day, or maybe it was one long day. I didn't realize you were out there for a week looking for them.

What did you feed? The chicken?

Guillaume Dulude: The [00:17:00] chicken. I try to get the chicken at the end when I'm really sure where they can be because as you say, the goal is to come and to create as fast as possible the relationship. That's the goal. And the whole survival is based on how can I connect as fast as possible with the highest in hierarchy.

So there are rules when you get into a place and it, this applies to our world, this applies to you and me right now. Every time you come across human beings, you need to understand the hierarchy system.

Jordan Harbinger: The hierarchy.

Guillaume Dulude: Yes,

Jordan Harbinger: absolutely. You don't have that H sound in French, so people are like, what is he talking about?

Yeah.

Guillaume Dulude: Thanks for

Jordan Harbinger: correcting me. Yeah, you're right. No, I'm not correct. You're speaking fine. It's just, I remember when I learned French in middle school, y'all can't say hotel. You just leave the H off. Yes,

Guillaume Dulude: yes.

Jordan Harbinger: And

Guillaume Dulude: hierarchy's a hard one without the H. So

Jordan Harbinger: hierarchy. Yeah, there

Guillaume Dulude: you

Jordan Harbinger: go. Exactly. Sounds sound like a yank already.

Guillaume Dulude: Exactly. So I need to make sure that the rooster, the chicken was alive. It's really at the end and you put a little bit of sponge with [00:18:00] some water and you try to keep it alive because you're going to gift the chicken. Right. That's the idea.

So if you show up

Jordan Harbinger: with a dead chicken or something that's basically on its

Guillaume Dulude: deathbed,

Jordan Harbinger: it's probably not

Guillaume Dulude: a great

Jordan Harbinger: gift.

Guillaume Dulude: I'd say the intention is there. It's the thought that counts. Here's the, the thought counts. You know, humans appreciate that, the intention, but if it's dead for a long time, they're not going to eat it. It's all about food and it's all about survival. It's like, hey, good intention, but you already start with a strike because you come here, you expect us to feed you, you must take care of you.

That just dead weight that you're coming with a present that is a dead present. So you seem a lot of trouble. So you want to come strong.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that makes sense. So this is, maybe this is a dumb question, I don't know. Maybe that's what makes it a good question. Do they normally eat chicken because you're in the middle of the desert.

Are there desert chickens that are just out there that they catch, but they know what a chicken is because it's not like they've never seen? A permanent [00:19:00] civilization before. So is this like an exotic gift? He brought a chicken and all the 10-year-old kids are like, dang, I never had a chicken. And the adults are like, I've had a few in my life.

Is it that kind of rarity? No, it's not that

Guillaume Dulude: rare, but it's not common either. It's coming from far. It's coming from a town somewhere. You cannot find a chicken around the Savannah, so it's Oh, that's a big meal. That's something quite special. It's seen as something special. Everybody's really excited and everybody's like, oh, okay, so cool.

Thanks.

Jordan Harbinger: Come. I'm trying to find an equivalent in the United States and it's really tough, right? Because I got a bunch of bananas behind you. But those aren't growing anywhere near here. But the supply chain is such that nobody's going to be blown away by the fact that I've bananas in my kitchen. I guess it's maybe like if somebody brought kangaroo meat and was like, Hey man, we should smoke this.

That would be. They're unique and I've probably maybe had it a couple of times in my life if then, and that was probably fake anyway, some fake ass kangaroo meat, just some tourist trap in Australia that pretends to serve kangaroo meat. So I'm trying to [00:20:00] relate it to that.

Guillaume Dulude: I think it's a classic bottle of wine, like a, A big wine like Ooh, a nice scotch.

Fancy. Yeah, something like that. We know what it is. It's rare we can buy it if we really push it, but now that you're offering, it's great.

Jordan Harbinger: This guy's got good taste, even though he is wearing virum five finger toe shoes. Exactly. By the way, those are

Guillaume Dulude: tough to walk in, man. You don't find those tough to walk in.

Actually, that was the first episode and I wanted to try these because. I knew that we were going to hunt together. So when you go in bow hunting, you have to be dead quiet. But I didn't know that I would hunt baboons during the night. So that's what I've done with them. And baboons are like so sensitive and they hear everything.

They see everything. And so you need to be very quiet when you're walking. So I didn't want to bring loud boots, so I brought that, but I hated that. And I, I took them off like after three days because it was hurting like my toes

Jordan Harbinger: between [00:21:00] the toes. Oh

Guillaume Dulude: yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Because all they had between the toes is like a little bit of nylons.

Exactly. Yeah. They did not hold up Well,

Guillaume Dulude: no

Jordan Harbinger: sweat. I, I remember being like, I'm going to wear these because I flat feet. So I'm like, oh, my feet feel so good. And they would just get shredded after like two months. And you're like, wait a minute, these are expensive. This is bullshit.

Guillaume Dulude: Yes. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. So you got your bow and arrow when you see them.

They're not concerned that a white dude who's essentially armed. Is wandering into their land, it seems like they would be a little bit like, Hey, what's his intention here?

Guillaume Dulude: That's where psychology comes into play. So when you meet someone anywhere, it's your job when you're communicating with someone to understand the state of mind, of the person, and to be able to create the right communication so it doesn't increase anxiety.

So the first thing that you must neutralize is anxiety. So why would they be anxious? All kinds of reasons. They don't know me, they don't share my language. I'm weird. I have all kinds of gear around me. Am [00:22:00] I a threat? Why am I here? So everything new in general for humans, are considered a threat and it'll rise anxiety.

So my first job, before they see me, just when they hear me hear my voice, I'm acting to. Reduce their anxiety. That's my first priority so much that even when they're going to start looking at me, right then, I must show them the right signs to lower anxiety. So there's a way to do that. For example, I will create eye contact, but really from far, and I will mimic their body language, okay?

If they start moving forward, I will start moving forward. If they stop, I'm going to stop a bit, but I'm going to keep the eye contact. I'm going to keep moving. going to make some sign until I got the permission to move again. Every movement counts if you move wrong or at the wrong timing. All they can see is the threat is the bow is I'm white, I'm new.

But if I give other [00:23:00] things and the other information to process, that's going to take over. And so anxiety will go lower and relationship will go higher. So you're going to make a cross like this. So when you meet someone, you always want to have this cross. You want to increase vulnerability because vulnerability triggers relationship.

You cannot make up relationship. You cannot create relationship. It's a result of a process. But you can control vulnerability. And if you increase vulnerability, relationship follows because relationship is a compensation mechanism for vulnerability. So you cannot directly create vulnerability relationship.

So you lower anxiety, you increase vulnerability, and this is why you don't feel the threat. And it feels like, oh, it was easy. I worried for nothing. No. It's because everything was there at every millisecond.

Jordan Harbinger: So yeah, you're waist deep in crock infested water. Two days from the nearest doctor, eating mystery seeds from strangers, and suddenly you remembered you needed a discount code for some flavored water.

Let's fix that. [00:24:00] We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Aura Frames. Aura Frames is perfect for the family memories that are a little chaotic in the moment and a lot funnier later. We just got back from a family cruise where Jen and I got hit with food poisoning like the first meal, which does not.

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Jordan Harbinger: This episode is sponsored in part by AT&T.

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Sixminutenetworking.com. Fine. Now back to Guillaume Dulude. My wife Jen asked a good question at lunch, which thankfully we ate before because that story about your foot was pretty disgusting. But she asked, what about you bringing diseases and stuff to these tribes? How do you make sure that you don't bring in, I don't know, COVID or something to a tribe that the [00:28:00] equivalent of smallpox, right?

That you don't want to give these people, I don't know, something that we have to go take antibiotics for that kills half their tribe or worse.

Guillaume Dulude: Normally there are guidelines. The authorities of every government have some guidelines if you want to do this kind of tourism. And some government do have very strict policies.

Some countries do not. For me, I think it's always important and you must make sure I don't have any symptoms of anything, that I have all my vaccines up to date and I spend enough time in the country so I can confirm that I am in a stable state.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, so do you go in like a month before and hang out for a couple weeks or a couple weeks?

Guillaume Dulude: If it's possible, yes. But sometimes because of the budget and the shooting and we need to make an episode count in a certain amount of days. So ideally I'm trying to come earlier to spend more times, make sure I'm stable in terms of symptoms or anything. If it's good I have the green light and now we move forward.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. Yeah, I was just [00:29:00] curious, what about predators and stuff? You said you're out there for a week looking for them. Aren't there things out there that are looking for you? because they're hungry. And your chicken. I mean, that's attracting attention from whatever big cats or whatever out there too, right?

Guillaume Dulude: Yes. That's a good question. And to me it's really exciting, to be honest. It's exciting.

Jordan Harbinger: Why is that exciting?

Guillaume Dulude: Because it's a game and it's a game. That's your in the hierarchy.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. You might not be at the top of the food chain.

Guillaume Dulude: Exactly.

Jordan Harbinger: And only way you're going to find out is when you get the bad news that you're not a top of food chain.

That's

Guillaume Dulude: so you need to be good at tracking. You need to be able to spot what are the dangerous animals in a specific area to know the tracks, ideally speaking. And you need some kind of basic experience and how to do that. For example, you walk with the wind in your face, never the wind blowing your scent forward because it'll attract things in front of you.

That's not what you want. So you want that, your smell go backwards. So you're always advancing, but your smell is [00:30:00] going backwards. So you always have a priority on what you can spot before you're getting spot.

Jordan Harbinger: I guess you also have to look behind you and make sure there's nothing following you

Guillaume Dulude: all the time.

And that's why I have a bow and arrow. I never carry firearms on that stuff. It's dangerous, it's complicated, and it's not necessary.

Jordan Harbinger: The laws are probably crazy. I mean, you try to import a firearm to Kenya. I, I don't even know how you do that.

Guillaume Dulude: Absolutely. And, and it's not necessary. If you know how to act, you're supposed to be safe.

But yes, there are predators and you need to watch, especially during the night, you need to know where to sleep. Yeah. So where do you sleep?

Jordan Harbinger: I don't know, you're hanging from a tree or something like that. Like how are you staying safe with your chicken?

Guillaume Dulude: Yeah. Uh, ideally I liken the trees, but I remember for this show, I didn't bring any hammock, so I was just sleeping underground.

So what you can do is to find a way where you're sheltered, you're protected at the back, and you can like, put some trees, some bush in front of you to create kind of a wall and always a fire. Normally when you, you have a fire, it's going to keep the animals away. [00:31:00]

Jordan Harbinger: It would be so hard to keep a chicken safe in an environment like that.

It's like having a baby with you. Although you, of course you'd care more about a child than a chicken, but you're trying to get something to trying to keep things away. It's like a, when you're camping, you know you don't keep your food out because bears will get it. So you get a bear bag, but you have a live chicken and it's just like such a pain and it's making noise.

What are you sleeping with? This thing's just crazy.

Guillaume Dulude: You need to defend your chicken, you need to defend your chicken or anything you have. Normally the fire does a good job, but during the night you always kinda sleep on one ear and you're always waking up. There's a little noise, especially little cracks like this.

You hear some cracks depending of the noise. You can know if it's a heavier animal or it's a predator, it will create a different noise. So you can get used to that and see like, oh, this is an elephant, but it's far, it's fine. Or it's cave of buffalo, but it's far. And normally cats, you don't hear them.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. You find out when it's

Guillaume Dulude: too late. Yeah, they're right in your face.

Jordan Harbinger: Geez, man. Is there a cameraman or are you filming [00:32:00] it all?

Guillaume Dulude: There's one cameraman, so we shut the whole thing to people.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay, because I was going to say, if you're filming it, that's a huge pain because you have to set it up and then climb the tree and then get down and then take the camera down.

So at least you have that guy helping.

Guillaume Dulude: Yes. And the thing that was the most important thing for me is the first approach, the first contact with people, lions and all that stuff. It was not the main priority. The main priority is it has to connect. It cannot not go well with all this trouble. The safety is the safety of the relationship with the people you meet.

So this has to go well. So for example, when I meet people, there's always a rule with the cameraman. So he knows exactly what to do. When I'm going to give him special sign where to look when it's time to put camera forward, keep the camera backward. So there's certain steps that he needs to respect. So I'm going to give him the cues, like, okay, you can follow me.

Okay. Put a camera down, make eye contact. Okay, that's the right time. Put the camera up now. It's good. It's all [00:33:00] little details that goes really fast. But the goal is to never obstruct the relationship process. That's what you want to do.

Jordan Harbinger: I had some questions about that somewhere later in my notes. Because I'm thinking if you're meeting them and the chief comes out and is like eyeballing you and he's got a camera that's behind you and he puts it in that guy's face, that's going to just blow the whole thing.

The guy's going to be like, who is this fricking guy and what is this thing? I assume that things can go wrong really quickly and then they just don't want anything to do with you.

Guillaume Dulude: Absolutely. And respect seems just a value. Actually. Respect is a science. Respect is a sport. Respect is knowing exactly which line you're supposed to cross and when.

And the only way you can know that is by observing the other person. The other person will give you the answer on what to do and the timing of certain things. So when I have certain signs, I know that it's safe to, for example, lift the camera a bit or move forward, or bring the cameraman next to me.

Otherwise it's not safe. So I need to [00:34:00] have the right authorization and I need to have the right authorization of the right hierarchy. So I don't need any authorization. I need to know where the order is coming from. And sometimes it's hard to tell because you come here riding around like who's the boss, who's leading here?

And it's not always obvious. Most of the time it has something to do with age. The older the better, because age means that you have overcame many challenges and there's a lot of respect related to age and experience. So normally you're going to look at the. Older person or the most decorated person you'll see if this is the person in authorities.

So you want to create the relationship first with this person and after it's going to go down to the hierarchy.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Have you ever met up with a tribe and they're like hostile or anything? Has that ever happened?

Guillaume Dulude: Hostile. No, but very resistant. Yeah,

Jordan Harbinger: resistant is probably a better word. Yeah. Otherwise you'd have a hole in you by now.

But

Guillaume Dulude: yeah, you need to be careful and you need to see these signs of resistance really far. If you don't see these [00:35:00] signs, you just keep walking and say, Hey, I have good intentions, but the world doesn't work with intentions. Right. Did I read something in your face that I want it to or not? It's not, yeah.

But trust me, in in inside myself, I have a good intention. It doesn't matter. So safety wise, you need to know when people have problems with you and you need to keep your distance, and you need to show them that they will lead. If you're trying to do too much, even with good intention, you can get hit in the face.

So you need to always show that you understand their rules and you play by their rules, and you're always listening to them. If they feel that you're always listening and responding in a way that they want. The anxiety will lower vulnerability and relationship will increase. But sometimes it's long.

Yeah. Because some society has been invaded, has been tortured and had bad relationship with tourism and other people. So you need to be sensitive to that. Sometimes you can't know, but what you can't see is to read the right [00:36:00] mechanisms in terms of psychological mechanisms and behavioral mechanisms. And you can see that.

Jordan Harbinger: So an example was you gave, uh, plenty, but like how you approach SMO slowly. There's one where you waited for the chief to smile before smiling back at him. My instinct, not that I've ever met at a tribe in the middle of nowhere, but I'd be like, oh, I'll just be really smiley. And then they'll. Like me or find me, uh, vulnerable.

But it's not, it's not quite how you want to handle that.

Guillaume Dulude: Now that you mention it saying like that it's true that it's weird because we feel that because we have positive intentions, it should work. Not really, because there are all kinds of reason why you would be smiling. But it doesn't mean that the reasons are good for me as well.

Jordan Harbinger: That's a good point. Yeah.

Guillaume Dulude: So when you're interacting with someone, you can feel whatever however you want, but you need to ask yourself like, what is the state, the mental state of the other person? And if you put yourself in his shoes or her shoes, how this person will understand my smile, [00:37:00] what does it mean?

And if it's not clear, it'll increase doubt. Like what are you laughing at? I don't see. So you increase the doubt just because you just did a small facial expression at the wrong timing. So normally what I like to do is that I just listen to the other person and I just weigh that this person is showing me the emotional.

Direction where we're going. So if the person, for example, is really not in a good mood, very serious, I'm going to keep it like this. I'm going to keep the distance, I'm going to keep the attention on the other person. But I will mimic normally, but not artificially mimic, not just like a robot, not like that. But I want to show the person that I get how he feels.

I don't maybe understand everything because I don't know this person. I don't know the culture or the language, but I'm going to mimic that. And if, for example, the other person loosen up and smiles, I'm going to follow the vibe. And this way you tell the other brain like, I'm following your lead. No matter where you go in your head, in your heart, physically, I'm following you.

So as soon as people [00:38:00] say, okay, so you will obey, you're not a threat anymore. So that's the trick. But subtle.

Jordan Harbinger: This is interesting. It reminds me of if you smile or you laugh and it's the wrong time, it'll increase doubt. You ever seen a video of Tom Cruise? Just having an interview. He laughs wildly at very weird things and weird times.

Yes. And it's fake. It's obviously just fake. Like he's doing something, I don't know what, but he's acting

Guillaume Dulude: performance.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. It is so bizarre. And it doesn't make you feel like, look at this relatable guy, what you're thinking. Or at least what I'm thinking is something is wrong with this person. Like he's mentally not all there.

That's what I always think when I see him on Oprah or like in a Scientology video or something that I'm researching. I'm just like, this guy's got screws loose. Yeah. You probably wouldn't want to communicate that to a tribe where you're like, Hey, can you let me into your house? I want to live with you for a week.

Guillaume Dulude: Yeah, but this is what I mean by respect. Respect is about knowing exactly what you must do at a certain timing according to the rules and place. [00:39:00] You don't know the rules. The only thing you can know is how to read someone.

Jordan Harbinger: What do you know about the tribes beforehand? Hit the Wikipedia. Okay, fine. But what else?

What do you know? Do you know what they eat? Do you know their history? How much research are you doing before you meet them?

Guillaume Dulude: I do as much research as possible because I've been in maybe 50, 70 tribes in my life.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, really? Okay. Because I saw five. I assumed that there was seasons prior, but I didn't know it was like dozens and dozens.

Guillaume Dulude: That's my best part to meet people, creating relationship, reading people and allies, people. I love it.

Jordan Harbinger: That's really cool. Yeah. I didn't realize you'd done so much of this. That's neat.

Guillaume Dulude: Yes. I'm trying to read as much thing as I can because it's going to help with empathy. Empathy is accelerated if you have more information to understand the other person's reality.

So you're going to do research where they live, what their history, long history, recent history, is it the hard period for them right now? Is there a food crisis? Is there a social crisis? [00:40:00] Sometimes in the bush, there's all kinds of tribal wars, and nobody talks about that. And you cannot know.

It's

Jordan Harbinger: not making the newspaper.

Guillaume Dulude: No, but sometimes you need to be very careful. I got some really weird surprises in Papua New Guinea, which is not on the TV show, but I saw someone getting his head cut off right in front of me because there was a war between two tribes. One tribe killed one person of the other tribe, and so instead of seeking revenge.

They set a compensation, 30 pigs to repay the life, but the compensation didn't work and so there was still a conflict and I saw someone just putting the ax on someone's head. So you need to be aware of that. That's why it's a real jungle. You need psychology. You need to read people. The answers are there,

Jordan Harbinger: trade you.

This white guy we, if the pigs didn't work out, we got this white guy you guys might be interested in. We've

Guillaume Dulude: got this. You want

Jordan Harbinger: that? Yeah. Oh man. Yeah. So this tribe can't believe we're still in episode one. It's just so interesting. They offer you some seeds to eat initially. [00:41:00] How do you know that's safe to eat?

Did you know what that was or were you just like, cool, I guess so Swallow a handful of these.

Guillaume Dulude: That's a good question. The question is what's going to help me survive there without a doubt is relationship. You have like timings or special opportunity, you can boost the relationship and how to do that. You increase vulnerability.

How do you get vulnerable? You take a risk. If you take a risk and you put your health in their hands, you show an extreme amount of vulnerability and it's going to score relationship like nothing. So especially in the first minutes, we have more energy, emotional energy is going well, anxiety is getting lower.

There's a momentum when you meet someone and I want to keep this momentum. So if I refuse this present because, oh wait, what is this? I'm not sure you slow down the momentum. Is there gluten

Jordan Harbinger: in here?

Guillaume Dulude: Is there gluten? The gluten,

Jordan Harbinger: I'm lactose in intolerant,

Guillaume Dulude: how many calories? So it's [00:42:00] like there's an opportunity there.

And so there are sacrificing food. They are vulnerable, they're sacrificing food for me, and they don't know me. So they're getting vulnerable.

Jordan Harbinger: It's like an offer. Yeah.

Guillaume Dulude: And so I must reciprocate the vulnerability if they become vulnerable. It's like saying like, look, I want to be with you. And you say, not for me.

Thank you.

Jordan Harbinger: Not right now.

Guillaume Dulude: No rejection. Instant anxiety go up and you feel rejected. The walls are closed off. You can't afford that. So whatever they will offer you, put that in your mouth, you eat that. Like Tic-Tacs.

Jordan Harbinger: When I was in Peru on one of my crazy trips, there was a Chapman that was hanging out with us for a day and I was walking with him and asking him about stuff in Spanish. Because he spoke a little bit of Spanish and he gave me this huge wad of Coca Leaf. And I was like, oh, what do I do with this? And he's like, you put it in your mouth. And I was like, oh man, I don't want to be like, no thanks. So I just put this huge wad of coca leaf in my mouth and I thought I would do more than I did.

Maybe I built a tolerance when I lived in la I don't know. But uh, yeah, I was like, oh, it was [00:43:00] supposed to make you buzz. It basically just sort of gently numbs part of your mouth. I don't know. I remember thinking this could lead down a bad road, man, if I have a reaction to this or there's, you know, a plant in here that I'm allergic to or, but I didn't want to be like, I don't know, I didn't want to offend the guys hanging out with us, showing us all this stuff in the jungle.

And whatever. I got travel insurance.

Guillaume Dulude: Lucky you.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Lucky me. Exactly. How do you show them that you want to film them? How do you even explain what you're doing? Do they know what the camera is or are they like, what the heck is this?

Guillaume Dulude: Depends where you go. Sometimes they have seen one before, sometimes no. If they know what it is, that's fine.

You save some time. But sometimes it's like there are no words or you cannot really explain what you're going to do with that and what's the point. And it's just a machine. The most important thing is that they agree. They accept. They feel comfortable that we use it. And normally we show them like, look, we take images and we show them their images.

Give the monitor, right? Yes, exactly. To say like, look, this is souvenir and if you don't want it, we don't [00:44:00] use it. If you want it, if you accept, we use it. So we always give them the authority. We use it or not. Most of the time I never film until I have enough of relationship. If the relationship is not established yet, I'm not filming because the camera is stealing from them.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah,

Guillaume Dulude: it's like. I'm here to shoot a film. It's for me. So I'm using you. For me, this is a lack of respect. So you cannot do that.

Jordan Harbinger: No. That's why people hate influencers.

Guillaume Dulude: Well,

Jordan Harbinger: yes, because I'm like, I'm here working out and you're freaking filming me. I'm like, I'm shopping. Why are you filming me?

Guillaume Dulude: So this is a hard stop for respect.

You cannot do that until the relationship is good enough. No problem. And you have the green light from the person in authority and after it's good and after you can film whatever you want, but it has to be done in a certain order.

Jordan Harbinger: You said never start giving things away other than the initial welcome gift, which is maybe the chicken or some other thing.

Why is that? They'll pick you clean or what?

Guillaume Dulude: Because the way the brain creates [00:45:00] relationship is in direct competition with any source of reinforcement. Every dopamine source will be competition with the relationship. Okay? So if you want to create relationship, you must play on psychological mechanisms.

Only if you put external rewards or external factors that are high in dopamine, which is something that tastes good, something that creates power, something that is rare, something that is shiny. If all these things are very high in dopamine, if you try to create a relationship and you put a reinforcement between the two, reinforcement will crush the relationship and you become distributor.

Jordan Harbinger: You're a vending machine of

Guillaume Dulude: yes,

Jordan Harbinger: dopamine.

Guillaume Dulude: Exactly.

Jordan Harbinger: Items.

Guillaume Dulude: You must never give anything valuable, never. If you give something, it must be with low value. That is always low and dopamine than the relationship itself. So, for example, let's say you and me, okay, we build a relationship. The relationship is high.

You can give me a present. I can give you a [00:46:00] present. As long as it's not like a Lamborghini, you understand? Like this is too much for what our relationship can take. So there is a ratio between the dopamine aspect of a certain reward and the relationship. And even if you do things perfectly, you can corrupt relationship like this with objects.

Jordan Harbinger: Interesting. All right. I'll take an Aston Martin instead then.

Guillaume Dulude: That's it. That's the right range there. Go. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: It's crazy to me that you don't know what they're saying because in the subtitles that I read that your wife made, thank you again. They're explaining all these things to you about arrows and poison, but in the moment you don't know what they're talking about.

You are just sitting there and they're like, Hey, this one will kill you. This one you eat and you're like basically just being polite, sitting there in the corner. So you're inferring everything that you can obviously.

Guillaume Dulude: So what happens is that. When I want to create the relationship first, the first 24 hours, first two days, I want only me.

The cameraman, but [00:47:00] I will arrange that the relationship will go through my eyes only. So they will create attachment with me. And the cameraman is like just an inoffensive thing hanging around. We want it like this. So

Jordan Harbinger: he doesn't talk the cameraman?

Guillaume Dulude: No, no.

Jordan Harbinger: That's interesting.

Guillaume Dulude: Because

Jordan Harbinger: they think something's wrong with him. Because he is not talking.

Guillaume Dulude: No, because the way we designed the process, he's just my friend who is not really talkative.

Jordan Harbinger: I see.

Guillaume Dulude: But he's not a threat. He's with me. And if they trust me and I'm telling them like he's my friend, he's with me, it's not a problem because I'm supposed to be in hierarchy. Yeah,

Jordan Harbinger: yeah.

Guillaume Dulude: Okay. So I'm the boss of this team. Not really. They must believe that I'm the boss and therefore he's my friend. He's not offensive. So when I start the first contact, I want them to focus on my eyes only. So the first few minutes I will tell my cameraman, like, drop the camera on my eye contact, and as soon as possible go back to your camera and go hide your eyes.

That way you force the other people to focus their attention. On my eyes, only it takes more energy to [00:48:00] sensitize. Relationship with many people at the same time. So it's going to slow things down a bit. So what I want is that they focus only on the relationship with me. So I'm going to tell my cameraman to put his head back on the camera so we don't have much access, but he's fine.

He's not a threat, but I will keep the eye contact for me. So once the relationship is strong enough, normally for the sake of the show, there's a translator that will come on day three or or day four.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, okay. Because I was thinking, how have you not eaten the poison or caused some sort of epic big misunderstanding if you don't have a clue what they're talking

Guillaume Dulude: about.

Yes, at certain point we need some verbal language, because relationship does not rely on verbal language, but abstract thinking, coordination, naming stuff, objects, categories, it's all mental representation. It's all language. So at certain point we need that to be able to make a show, but the relationship does not depend on the words at.

Jordan Harbinger: He's out there risking death by [00:49:00] snake infection or just being politely murdered by a tribe and you, well, you're saving big on the fine products and services that support this show. Two peas in a pod, just saying we'll be right back.

This episode is also sponsored in part by BetterHelp. Financial stress isn't always just about not having enough. Sometimes it's about feeling like no amount is enough. It's comparison pressure, and that voice in your head telling you that you should be further along by now, that stuff can wear on you.

Even when from the outside, everything looks fine. Even I fall victim to that. I look what I built instead of thinking like, this is great. My brain goes to, yeah, well, why didn't you build something even bigger? Jordan, why isn't the show 10 times larger? That's the trap And therapy can help you sort through that, not because it's going to tell you how to make more money, but because it'll help you deal with the stress and anxiety that come from tying your value to achievement.

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Therapy can definitely help. Sign up and get 10% off at BetterHelp dot com slash Jordan. That's better. hlp.com/jordan. This episode is brought to you in part by Lufthansa. When people talk about travel, they usually focus on the destination, the hotel, the restaurants, all the stuff that happens after you land.

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Guillaume Dulude: those who support the show.

Now, back to Guillaume Dulude.

Jordan Harbinger: When the translator shows up, they must be like, okay, we're all dying to know. Why did this guy show up here? Like there's got to be some funny moments. Because the translators. Oh yeah, no. Everybody's been asking me all day like, where did you come from and why are you here?

Surely, even if you're friendly and they got this relationship, you still fell out of the sky with a bow and arrow and a [00:52:00] chicken.

Guillaume Dulude: Absolutely, yes. When the translator comes day tour day three, there's a big meeting, or Oh, we're going to have more precise information. So now I get more the names. I'm better to understand how they pronounce certain things, because sometimes there's the clique that,

Jordan Harbinger: yeah,

Guillaume Dulude: all these things, most names in these tribes have cliques and it's hard to do this kind of, they're different.

They're all

Jordan Harbinger: different.

Guillaume Dulude: They're all different. So it's like, that's

Jordan Harbinger: cool.

Guillaume Dulude: You go to another level and you love languages. I do, yeah. As me. It's always so interesting. And so you need some help for that. And when they start telling their story, where they're born, who's their family, they have sometimes many wives and it's like, okay, you guys are related.

Okay. So it's another layers, but for me, this will never have priority, but the relationship does have the priority.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. That's super cool. I know you let them help you set up and teach you things, and it sort of increases hospitality. That's a vulnerability lever, I suppose, in the tribes, most of them [00:53:00] anyway that you mentioned.

Nobody's more wealthy than the others. The leadership is mostly based on age, like you mentioned, but people can even switch clans if they want to, but nobody owns a bunch of stuff and the other person's poor. It's pretty interesting how they set it up.

Guillaume Dulude: Yeah. That's how you know we come from nomadic lifestyle.

It's like belonging are not useful. It's only useful when you start agriculture and you can start gathering things and there's an economy system. But when you just hunt and eat fruits, like on the way where you're walking, you don't need any stuff. It's just dead weight. I remember, I think in this tribe, in the morning they just wake up and they just gather together.

They go for a walk, they're going to go to try find something to eat. So we walk one behind another and they find like a bush with fruits and they all like, bees go on it and they eat everything in the bush and it's like empty in two minutes and it's like this bush is finished, you know? And you keep walking.

You find something else. So you have to be quick. [00:54:00]

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. There's probably some competition who can shut the most berries in their face.

Guillaume Dulude: Yes, yes, yes.

Jordan Harbinger: If people switch clans, how does that work? You just wander over to the next one and you're like, Hey, there's no girls here. I'm looking for a. Can I hang out here?

Guillaume Dulude: It depends of the community, depends of the culture. But what I can assure you is that there are rules. All they have is themselves, us humans, their family, their community. So everything is structured, families are structured, alliances are structured. The roles, titles, everybody has a title. There's not random, like they all have prestigious title.

Like it's like they're all sitting around a fire and they're going to say like, I'm the president of this thing. Like,

Jordan Harbinger: it's like a Silicon Valley startup. I'm the chief experience officer. Dude, there's four people in your company. Calm down.

Guillaume Dulude: That's exactly how it is. It's crazy how similar we behave all human beings.

It's crazy. It's the same tradition, the same concept, the same instincts, but just with new disguise, new costumes, [00:55:00] it's the same. You go in a tribe, they all have like special responsibility and. Every time I'm stunned, I'm like, now what? What's your title? And they're going to say like, I'm the chairman of cultural, and you're, it's like, what the hell do you mean?

And sometimes you feel like you want to judge. It's like, come on guys. But that's the culture. It's, and everybody has a special title. They're all special and they're all proud of themselves. So when you switch one from one clan to the other, one village to the other, you need some kind of agreement. You need some kind of authority saying like, yes, you're allowed to move in.

your dad? And there's going to be a voting system.

Jordan Harbinger: Dang.

Guillaume Dulude: Oh yeah. Wow. It's every move is decided collectively. And there's a structure behind it. It's not, look I'm in love.

Jordan Harbinger: Everybody else has to deal with it.

Guillaume Dulude: Yeah, no, like your love is your problem. Where you need to survive. We need to organize our resources.

What are you good at? Are you good? Are you a good man? I [00:56:00] am a good man. Why? Like, what's the proof? What have you done? Nothing. You are not good. So when you're going to be good, come back. So you need proof to earn stuff. You need to actually work. In our society, we have this thing called self-esteem. Yeah,

Jordan Harbinger: I was going to say, this is totally different take.

Guillaume Dulude: Yeah. And it doesn't work. Yeah. But I'm special. I'm worth a lot. I deserve a lot. Why do you say that? How are you special? You're not special. You're unique, but that's not the same thing as special. You're unique, but you're not special. So when you are surviving in a difficult environment, don't talk to me about how you're special.

You are. Don't talk about it. Show me how many cows you have. Show me what have you done? How many houses have you built? Show me things. And after you will be worth something and after you can get married and after, but you have to do something. You cannot sell yourself like this. This is not a pitch. [00:57:00] So here in our modern world, we have this idea of personal value, but it's more potential than value.

You actually need to do things.

Jordan Harbinger: It's a more of a meritocracy in many ways.

Guillaume Dulude: Yes.

Jordan Harbinger: There's a part where you go with the men and you're making poison for the arrows. Yes. And you're out hunting with these guys with a bow. And I was just thinking, I literally said out Louds, bro, good luck. Like you're just hanging out in a rock in Africa.

Just, I've got this. I know you've trained with the bow, but these guys live and die by this thing. They must have been so skilled. And this is what the monkeys, I think they were shooting the monkeys at night. I'm just thinking this is next level difficult. This is not a target range. This is a moving monkey that hears you and it's dark.

Guillaume Dulude: These guys do stuff that I can't even imagine. They have these bows and arrows that they do themselves, and they're just doing that sitting underground and they can shoot a bird flying in the air,

Jordan Harbinger: a moving target far away.

Guillaume Dulude: Easy all the time and they won't [00:58:00] miss a lot. It's just like, how did you Like I have like a pulley, bows and arrow.

Yeah. Compound

Jordan Harbinger: bow. Yeah,

Guillaume Dulude: compound bow. Exactly. And they're like super strong arrows and all that stuff. Like I cannot be that accurate,

Jordan Harbinger: but Right. The difference is you have to hit the target. It's like hitting a target with a stick arrow. Beats missing the target with a steel arrow day. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. But they seem to genuinely be enjoying your company. And vice versa though, like it, it seemed like these guys are having a pretty good time. It would be like, I guess if you were at work one day in a place where you never see anybody new and a celebrity shows up to help you one day with a video camera and you're just stoked, they seem like really excited.

They're showing you how they live and it must be an incredible feeling to just be in the company of these people who are like, they genuinely accept you to like come hunt monkeys with us. And you're like, sure thing. And now you're there. Doing that. It's like it never happens to them. It's never probably ever going to happen to them again in their life maybe.

[00:59:00] And you get to do that. You're the one guy doing that. It's pretty cool.

Guillaume Dulude: This is the ultimate reward to create a bond, to create relationship with people so different. It's just, it's the reward by itself. That's my drug. Creating relationships, understanding people, and anybody can do it. You can train, you can learn how to do that, but it's still, when it happens, if you know how to do it, it's a privilege.

It's an awesome honor to share these moments with these kind of community, with anyone to, to be honest with anyone, whether it's a tribe in South Africa or anywhere, meaning someone new to go in their home. It's an awesome privilege.

Jordan Harbinger: I'm surprised they don't want your bow when you leave because this is their survival tool.

Guillaume Dulude: Yes.

Jordan Harbinger: It would be like if you hunted all your food with a musket and somebody showed up with a laser rifle from the future, I would be like, bro, remember you leave that thing with me. That's pretty damn cool. Do they ask

Guillaume Dulude: for

Jordan Harbinger: that?

Guillaume Dulude: That's a really good question because I am not creating a pattern where they feel that they can [01:00:00] ask for objects.

I see. Yeah. Okay. We value relationship and we don't ask for stuff.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Guillaume Dulude: So they don't do that. But they don't do that because the way we develop the relationship is that we keep our things and so no, they value the relationship and they're not like, oh, I want this stuff. I want this stuff. They're just, see me for me, and so this is very important and that's a problem in tourism in general because tourist.

Go there with a lot of money and they want to do good, but the problem is that they're not as good to create the right type of relationship and it becomes a mess. Unfortunately, this is how you corrupt villages with tourism. This is bad tourism, unfortunately, because you arrive with your bling bling, all your stuff, and you say, I'm going to make poor people happy.

I'm going to give my stuff away. You must never give anything except something that is relevant to the culture. Only this. If you bypass that, you car up the whole culture and you car up the relationship with you. But for the [01:01:00] future, people that will come now, they will expect objects. This is how you ruin relationships.

Jordan Harbinger: The only experience I have that's even remotely close to this is going to North Korea because they had never seen any of the things that we had. And so we went to the city and our guides were like, All right, you're in the middle of town. There's all these kids roller skating around. We can just hang out here that we're going to get some coffee and stuff and which is rare.

Usually you don't have downtime, especially not with locals around. And I had this camera that was like a Polaroid that would print also. Yes,

Guillaume Dulude: yes.

Jordan Harbinger: And also it saved them digitally. So I didn't need the prints. So what I was doing was taking photos of kids Yeah. And stuff with their permission, obviously, and then giving them the print.

And I'm like, oh, I'll save my digital copy for at home. And I remember like the word got around in this little square. And so all these fathers were in line with their kids. And we would take a picture and give it to them. And one guy who spoke like the tiniest bit of English, another guy spoke a little bit of Chinese, he explained that.

They [01:02:00] didn't have any photos of themselves with their kids at all. And maybe there were either zero or one school photo of just their kid, no family photos, nothing with them and their son ever. So we were giving them this really cool, really precious, probably they couldn't even buy it kind of gift. And no one asked for the camera.

They just wanted the print. And even then they tried to pay us in like local money, which we can't even use any to buy anything with. So we didn't accept it and kids were trying to give us their toys in exchange for the prints. Nobody wanted the actual device. I remember my friend was like. Dude, no one's asked you to give that to them or even touch it or anything.

Guillaume Dulude: Yes.

Jordan Harbinger: Uh, we found that just shocking. It is probably the same principle.

Guillaume Dulude: Absolutely. And what is interesting about pictures, it's not just any object. It's an object that reflects the relationship. Picture is a special object.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Guillaume Dulude: Because there are all kinds of object that can go in competition with the relationship because it's high dopamine, but this is high [01:03:00] dopamine, but it's merged with image of yourself, so it does not contaminate the relationship.

The respect remains really high. But I'm really happy you bring that up because it's one of the rare objects that still fits in the realm of positive relationship. It's one of the only,

Jordan Harbinger: I often think there's a bunch of North Korean dudes in the city of Wanson with a Polaroid from my camera stuck on the wall.

And it's the only photo they have of them with their 6-year-old kid at that age. And it's. Pretty cool that I was able

Guillaume Dulude: to, I think it's touching. It's a souvenir. It's not just like any object. I'm for that. I'm for Polaroid. Yeah, absolutely.

Jordan Harbinger: That camera got a lot of mileage. Dude. You would go to a school and take a picture of one kid and every kid wants a photo.

Right? Every kid, once I brought 50 and I thought, this will last the whole trip. And then the next trip I brought 200 and I think I came home with three left. Oh

Guillaume Dulude: yeah,

Jordan Harbinger: of course. It was awesome.

Guillaume Dulude: Cool. It's powerful.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it's

Guillaume Dulude: powerful. Polar ride. It's like everything we want. [01:04:00] Souvenirs, history, relationship. A special moment that you will remember.

I, no, it's I, I love it.

Jordan Harbinger: Those little travel cams are like one of the coolest thing. I should do that on one of my adventure trips. Because sometimes you meet Edwins or something on these trips or whatever, and that's part of the trip. It's not a random. They don't go to town and do this. And now unfortunately, a lot of these, even the shaman have Android phone he was using, like occasionally there was no phone service.

But I mean, he just had it, I don't know, maybe had a map on it and I thought like, All right, the world is just almost too modern now for this to matter as much as it did. Look, I come from a place of privilege to be able to say that, oh, it's too, Betty has a phone in clothing. It would be more interesting for me if it was still, uh, you was

Guillaume Dulude: dressing with, with leaves

Jordan Harbinger: in the stone Age.

Yeah, exactly. No. Man, the point at which you're all collecting honey out of this huge tree with the beehive in it, they're all getting stung, right? They're sticking their arm in this hive and you tried it. Even little kids were doing it because they have smaller arms. What [01:05:00] happened when you tried it? I,

Guillaume Dulude: I always try to contribute in whatever activities I'm involved.

I don't want to feel like I'm just like eating their stuff and being bored. I want to try to do something even though, like, I act like a 4-year-old and I know nothing and I don't really contribute, but they let me try. So it, it's the intention, right? And so I was looking at the guys and everybody trying to get honey.

Inside the tree or like the full arm inside and the bees going everywhere and

Jordan Harbinger: it's like Star Wars was got to stick his hand in that thing and you don't know what's going to happen.

Guillaume Dulude: Yes, yes, yes, yes. It's like

Jordan Harbinger: that. But you Or

Guillaume Dulude: June. June

Jordan Harbinger: or June. Yeah. But here's the thing. You know what's going to happen? You're going to get Stu, so it's actually almost worse.

Guillaume Dulude: Yeah. So I saw like 6-year-old kids do it, and I'm like, I'm a grownup man. This should

Jordan Harbinger: be no problem.

Guillaume Dulude: And I work out. It's no problem.

Jordan Harbinger: I'm tough. I'm

Guillaume Dulude: tough. I was almost an Olympic swimmer.

Jordan Harbinger: I got this

Guillaume Dulude: exactly. I just put like half of my fingers in it and I got stung [01:06:00] so hard. Like it was like an electric shock from my whole body.

I was like. Guys, what are you doing? And they're been bit thousands of times on like it's nothing in their face. Yeah, in their face. And they're just like this. And they're eating honey and smiling. And after I got like my first huge allergic reaction because I didn't even know I was allergic to bees. So

Jordan Harbinger: could it be only a certain kind of bees or did you just get stung so many times that you had a reaction?

Guillaume Dulude: I got tested afterwards. Yeah. I became interested about that. I would.

Jordan Harbinger: I would too.

Guillaume Dulude: And I realized that I'm allergic to all kinds of wasps bees and so I'm allergic.

Jordan Harbinger: Good thing you brought an EpiPen. Because you're what, like two days away from a doctor

Guillaume Dulude: at least. And it's the first time that I carried a Epi EpiPen in my life.

It's just because the production company said, look, you need to bring that. I'm like, okay, whatever.

Jordan Harbinger: Fine.

Guillaume Dulude: Yeah, I'll

Jordan Harbinger: never use this.

Guillaume Dulude: I used both.

Jordan Harbinger: Wait, so you needed both for the one reaction? Ooh dang.

Guillaume Dulude: Yeah, because at night it was not going away. After four hours of the first one, I took another one.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:07:00] How do you get water?

Guillaume Dulude: That's so funny. You're thirsty. So you're asking like, where's the water? And they're going to say like, uh

Jordan Harbinger: oh, they don't have a well or anything. Right.

Guillaume Dulude: You have to look for it. And they're going to say, oh, you, you need to go to the river. I'm like, okay, yeah, fine. Let's go to the river. So you walk for like a couple of hours, you go to the river and classic, there's no water.

The water's gone. And they're like, there's a river. I'm like, yeah, but there's no water. He says, yeah, but it's a river. It's like, why do you think I need a river?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Guillaume Dulude: I always get caught like this. I'm looking for a river. They're always proud. And in many places around the world, here's the waterfall. Go to a waterfall.

Here's the waterfall. I said, where's the water? Yeah, but there's no water right now.

Jordan Harbinger: You should see it in springtime. Why are

Guillaume Dulude: we here? But you said we wanted to see a river waterfall.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah,

Guillaume Dulude: but yet, but for the water.

Jordan Harbinger: Right.

Guillaume Dulude: But we didn't know that. And that's why you say like, okay, let's just different cultures.

Yeah, we didn't know that. [01:08:00] So. In this special tribe in this river, there's a way to find water. You need to dig a hole inside the waterbed and there's going to be a little bit of water going up and you drink right inside the hole. So you dig.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow.

Guillaume Dulude: There's some water underneath.

Jordan Harbinger: Is that dangerous? because there's microbes in the ground and stuff.

Guillaume Dulude: Of course they're used to it. Not

Jordan Harbinger: me. They're used to it. But what about you? Do you use a filtered straw or something?

Guillaume Dulude: I boil it,

Jordan Harbinger: yeah. Okay.

Guillaume Dulude: Boil it.

Jordan Harbinger: Yikes. So you're thirsty when you're done with these?

Guillaume Dulude: Oh yeah. Like

Jordan Harbinger: first thing is a beer and

Guillaume Dulude: Oh yeah. And I remember the bes coming out of this straw. My face was still half swollen and I was like so thirsty.

And yeah, the beer was really good and, and it's so hot. So anything cold is just, oh my God, how could I live? Like

Jordan Harbinger: first gas station on the way back to civilization? Yes. It's like, All right, I want all of the ice.

Guillaume Dulude: Oh yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Coca-Cola and the beer. Yeah. Oh man. How does baboon taste, because you ate a baboon hand or whatever, that looked kind of like a bony mess.

It's

Guillaume Dulude: quite horrible. [01:09:00] Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. It looked pretty gross, man.

Guillaume Dulude: They were so happy because they were giving me like the hand, and the whole hand like with the fingernails and the hand is, is like this and, and I'm like, where's the food on the hand? And they just cut, you know the muscle thet muscle there. So you eat that, you have some muscle there.

Just eat the fingers like this.

Jordan Harbinger: My wife eats like that. She would be fine. I'd starve again.

Guillaume Dulude: Oh yeah,

Jordan Harbinger: she can. She can demolish a chicken wing. Yeah.

Guillaume Dulude: And it was funny because we hunt this baboon during the night and so there is absolutely no light at all. I couldn't see anything at all. But they can't see in the night.

They have night vision and I couldn't even see my hand in front of me. Nothing. They were grabbing my hand, me and the cameramen, we were just like following them like this. Couldn't see nothing, nothing. And so they were trying to hunt the baboon, but the baboon could hear us. And so they said like, look, you're too noisy.

Just stay there. We're going to pick you up [01:10:00] afterwards. So me and my cameramen were just like in the jungle, like, this bitch black, just waiting forever like that, they're going to come back. We cannot get out of there. They need to come back. So we're like this, and after half an hour they come back with two big baboons and we're like, yeah, we got it.

They shut it in the dark. It's unbelievable.

Jordan Harbinger: That is impressive. Do you have a favorite person when you meet new tribes after a while? Like is there one person you connect with the most and you maybe you're bummed when you got to leave?

Guillaume Dulude: Yes. It's always sad for me. Uh, I always get attached. I bond quite well with the people I meet, and so everybody's crying, I cry and uh, yeah, it's hard.

Jordan Harbinger: Have the people in these tribes ever seen a white person before? Like I guess if you're old enough, you've been to town to pick up like, I don't know, fishing supplies or bricks or, I don't know, clothes, but the kids probably have never seen anybody who's not in their tribe.

Guillaume Dulude: Yeah, it depends of the tribes and yes.

Uh, as you say, the age. It happens a lot with younger kids or babies. When they see me, they start to cry because they [01:11:00] think that I'm a ghost. That's what know, because I'm white. Yeah, too white. I'm coming from the other world dead. So I'm like a ghost. They see me like wa I remember in Papua New Guinea, like everywhere where I was going, like the kids were like running everywhere.

There's a ghost, there's a ghost. And after of course, adults that they have move around and they don't think I'm a ghost. So yeah, this can happen.

Jordan Harbinger: Some of the stuff on the show is pretty nerve wracking. Like there, there's one where you were waist deep in the water and there's kids canoeing on a log and you're like, oh, hey guys.

And then there's a 12 foot alligator carcass. At what point are you like, wait, that thing was in here with me alive. There's might be another one of those. What killed the 12 foot alligator? Was it a 14 foot alligator? I'm walking through this and they're on a boat, like maybe I should get on a boat.

Guillaume Dulude: Yes, I remember that.

It was in Ethiopia, if I remember correctly. Yes, they have big crocodiles there. I think it's Nile Crocodile, which are the biggest. Some people went in the water like [01:12:00] waist deep. They were doing crocodile traps, so they were inspecting traps and oh,

Jordan Harbinger: so they eat the crocodiles.

Guillaume Dulude: They eat crocodiles and fish, of course.

So they're fishing, mostly fishing. But of course there are crocodiles around. But I don't know, they're just walking. But I was really nervous following them around, like, and the cameraman was just behind me and we were looking at each other like,

Jordan Harbinger: yeah,

Guillaume Dulude: I just keep walking and no, it's really scary. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I don't know if I can handle that. I wonder how you learn so much about nature. Because there's a point where you come across this termite mound and it's 30 feet high or whatever, 10 meters high. You're like, oh, they can be twice that. And you got to be careful around them. Not because of there's termites, but there's snakes that eat them and sometimes they're inside these things.

By the way, I thought this was fascinating. The snakes are there because birds come to eat the termites. And snakes have learned that the birds come to the termite mound, so they hang out. So it's not the snakes eating the termites, it's the snakes eating the birds that eat the termites. But where do you learn stuff like that?

Is it from the tribe or what?

Guillaume Dulude: Yes. When you spend a lot of time in nature and you talk with people that [01:13:00] live in nature, they're going to teach you so many things. And I love animals. I've always been interested by animals. And so I remember once I was sitting on one Hermite mounts and one of the tribes men I remember said, you should get up.

I'm like, why? He says, there's a hole inside this termite mount. I'm like, okay. So he says, probably there's a snake inside it. I'm like, wow. And also it's maybe 40 degrees.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, so it's nice and cool in there. Yeah,

Guillaume Dulude: it's cool inside. And they come out at night so you can get bitten easily.

Jordan Harbinger: Scary man. Nature is like unforgiving, eh?

Guillaume Dulude: It's unbelievable that you're going to miss all that if you don't know what you're looking at. And for me, when I see some, an expert in nature and can describe everything he sees in nature. For me, it's the same thing when I look at someone in psychology. So many things. You can see uhhuh if you know what to look.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Guillaume Dulude: If you don't know you're going to sit on a log or next to a crocodile, or you can see all kinds of things, [01:14:00] when you learn what to look for, what to see, the world becomes interesting and full of potential. You know, safety wise, it's dangerous. When you're not in control of your things, it's dangerous. You need to keep control.

You need to stay alert at all times. The Omo River. It's full of crocodiles. Full of crocodiles, so you're

Jordan Harbinger: not going to go there to wash up.

Guillaume Dulude: The protocol when they wash up is that they're going to have two guys with two rifles, two Kalashnikov looking for you, and while you're going near the river and wash, and if they see a crocodile coming, they will shoot around you to make their crocodile jump.

So if you know where they are. So taking a shower, it's a big adventure. You need two rifles, you need bullets, and you need to be really fast because cogno, they eat people, they eat children, they grab people by the face, bullet underwater. So the shower time, it's a big expedition.

Jordan Harbinger: Now we'll get back to how you avoid getting shot with a poison arrow by people you just met.

Super relatable stuff. But first, let's talk [01:15:00] about something equally life threatening. Forgetting to support this podcast. We'll be right back.

Don't forget about our newsletter wee bit wiser. It is specific, practical, and a less than two minute read just about every Wednesday. Not quite depends how we're feeling that week. You know what I mean? If you haven't signed up yet, I invite you to come check it out. It is a great companion to the show.

Jordan harbinger.com/news is where you can find it. Now for the rest of my conversation with Guillaume Dulude, don't you start to stink out there. Those guys are used to being out there. They probably have a body biome that sort of resists. I don't know. For me, I work out if I don't shower that day by nighttime and I'm not a smelly guy, but by nighttime I'm like, oh yeah.

So if I was out somewhere for seven days, I would definitely smell worse than any local guy hanging out in the jungle or the desert.

Guillaume Dulude: I remember once when I was in Papua New Guinea, I was in, um. Community called the Hella Tribe. It's the Wigman. They're all painted. [01:16:00]

Jordan Harbinger: That's cool.

Guillaume Dulude: And they have a artificial wig made out of plants.

They all have plants and colors. And the chief of the village, I've never smelled something stronger in my life. I could know where it was like at 15 meters.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, so they also smell?

Guillaume Dulude: Yes.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, okay. I just for some reason thought that they didn't,

Guillaume Dulude: it's just they don't notice it's normal. And so it's like France, it's, I don't know.

But you get used to it. Yeah. And you don't smell it anymore. So I think anybody not used to it. It's things like crazy. But after a couple of days, you don't smell yourself, you don't smell others. And it becomes normal.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Oh man. I don't know why. I guess I just assumed if you grow up out there, your body bacteria doesn't smell anymore because it balances out.

But I guess you just, you grow up with it and you don't care. Just like sleeping with the goats, like they still stink.

Guillaume Dulude: It just

Jordan Harbinger: go, it normals in one nostril and out the other. Yes,

Guillaume Dulude: exactly.

Jordan Harbinger: Got it. Wow, man. The armed guards for bathing. Oh man, you [01:17:00] stink. You know what? I don't want to go to the river and get bit in the face by a crocodile, so deal with it pal.

Yeah, I know. Exactly,

Guillaume Dulude: exactly. But they still need to go there every day to get water. So like women go there with their children wrapped and so they need to be careful. The technique is when you don't have a rifle, what you're going to do, you're going to throw rocks where you want to get the water and see if something jumps.

If there's a crocodile there, it's going to jump or you're going to see, it's going to go up to look. If there's nothing you can take a chance and so grab the water.

Jordan Harbinger: Crocs are so fast. I was in, this is a long time ago, I was in Costa Rica and we went surfing and there was like a river that goes out into the ocean and it's really muddy.

So sometimes these crocodiles from the river will go into the ocean and I think they turn around and go back in the river. They're like lost at that point, but they're like, oh, you don't want to surf past like this point because sometimes Crocs go out there from the river and blah, blah blah. And then so we went and got coconuts. Because there's guys that sell coconuts on these bridges that go over the river. I was like, oh man. [01:18:00] What's down there because it was just grass. And I saw a crocodile in the riverbank and I was like, oh, there's a crocodile down there. And my friend's like, there's a lot of crocodiles down there. And I said, well, I only see one.

And then the guy was like, are you done with your coconut? And I said, yeah. And he goes, watch this. And he threw the shell into the water. The second, the millisecond, the shell hit the water. The whole river erupted with crocodiles. There was a, I don't know, a hundred crocodiles in this river. And they all went to go grab it.

One of them got the shell realized it was just a coconut shell and like slowly relaxed its jaw and then just sank. And I thought to myself, there's a 0% chance of surviving even being near this river. There's no way. So I can't imagine having to go to a river like that for your water. And you're just like, All right, throw a rock in there and they'll jump.

And then you look where they didn't jump, and that's where you go get the like that's just another level of survival, unpredictability and just like it's nightmare fuel.

Guillaume Dulude: It is, it is.

Jordan Harbinger: They were so fast, dude. [01:19:00] What are the rainstorms like out there? Man, it's got to be crazy. I love a good rainstorm. A good thunderstorm.

I feel like you must see some crazy stuff out there. Because on those planes it's got to rain a ton and the storms are probably like insane.

Guillaume Dulude: Depends where you go. It depends the time of the year. Uh, when it's dry season. Sometimes it's dry season for a while and sometimes for years, for example, in South Africa, they've been in the drought for the last 11, 12 years.

So it's not raining much. Normally there are cycles, so sometimes like it's dry for a couple of years and after it comes back. So it's back and forth like this. Sometimes, like when the rain falls, you can fill up this glass just like this in a few seconds, but you got to be in the right timing. So it depends where you are.

In Africa it's a bit unpredictable.

Jordan Harbinger: I think it'd be really badass to sit there and watch a lightning thunderstorm with just nothing else around. Have any of the tribes you've visited, do they have any of those coming of [01:20:00] age rituals that are like crazy intense? You know, you see on Nat Geo, which is where your show should be, probably.

Do they make a glove and then they put bullet ants in there and then you like shove your hand in there for as long as you can to prove you're tough?

Guillaume Dulude: Yes. Every traditional community has really important transition rituals to become adults. Most of the time and most of the time, especially for men, it involves pain.

Most of the time, and most of the time they will have circumcision. Right. Yikes. It's way worse than you can think. Okay. I've been invited to one to watch that.

Jordan Harbinger: What age are they when they do this?

Guillaume Dulude: When they feel that they want to be a man? Oh, so like

Jordan Harbinger: 10, 13-year-old?

Guillaume Dulude: Yeah, something like that.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh my god.

Guillaume Dulude: I remember one tribe, the Dasa niche tribe.

The one walking with the crocodiles in the water. Okay. This tribe, I remember one guy was explaining to me that if you want to become a man, you need to get circumcised, [01:21:00] but you need to have a successful circumcision. And I'm like, what do you mean successful? It's like when you're going to be cut up. You must not cry, flinch, you must not have any emotion, any facial expression.

Otherwise you're weak and it's going to follow you the rest of your life. So you're getting caught with a piece of rock, a piece of a knife, and you must not move.

Jordan Harbinger: Flinching is not the right word. I am cringing, but that's horrific.

Guillaume Dulude: Oh yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: First of all, it seems like the person doing it can either make it fast or make it slow, or use a sharp knife or use a not so sharp.

I mean, even if you went to a hospital with a scalpel and a skilled doctor, if you didn't have anesthetic, you're still going to flinch. Probably. Even if you did have anesthetic, you would still flinch if you were watching somebody circumcised. You just

Guillaume Dulude: looking at someone and you're going to flinch. I'm flinching watching somebody else go through this.

Probably.

Jordan Harbinger: That's crazy to me, man.

Guillaume Dulude: Like rituals [01:22:00] and transitions are a big thing at the center of traditional cultures, and I have a good story for you. Yeah. Once I brought seven clients with me in a tribe, signed clients because I, I do psychology workshops and all that stuff. And I said, look guys, if you want to do something special, we could do something special.

Jordan Harbinger: Get circumcised.

Guillaume Dulude: No circumcised, but why it happens. I brought them in Ethiopia and to the crocodile tribes. And what happened is that I explained to them all the rules, communication rules and all that stuff, but there was one girl that is a bit personality disorder, very tall, very beautiful, very charismatic need for attention all the time, and the son of the chief of the village fell in love with her.

She likes the attention. So the last day, the last evening, the next morning, we're supposed to go back, but we [01:23:00] need to be escorted. We don't know how to go back by foot. We need help from the chief of the son. So we need him. The guy's in love with one of my girls, you know, and one of my clients. And so the last night he was drunk, he brought some alcohol, like weird alcohol into the village.

So the whole village was drunk, which is really bad sign. It's not good because it can go wrong really fast. They all have guns, they all have Knik, cough, they're all starting to drink. They don't want us to leave the next morning. So my clients, they're not aware of it, but because I have experience, I know that there's maybe a big problem there, dangerous situation coming up.

So I'm just looking at that, like, how will I get out of there? So you just have

Jordan Harbinger: to sell her to the tribe.

Guillaume Dulude: Easy peasy. So it's eight o'clock. And everybody wants to sleep. And so at [01:24:00] eight o'clock, the chief, the prince, he's waking us up like, Hey, wake up. And normally never talks to us like that because it's very respectful.

And now he's drunk. Weird. Now all my clients are like, oh, this is weird. What's going on? And now I'm like, okay guys, follow my lead. Follow exactly what I'm doing. So you just smile. Just follow. Just say exactly what, don't show that you're afraid. Just smile. Just smile. Just nod. Don't panic. Don't make him feel rejected. Because this guy is not accepting to let go this girl. So if we all reject him, he's going to rebel against us. He will try to control us by force and it's very dangerous. You don't have no idea what they can do. There are no rules here. We're absolutely alone. There is nobody that knows exactly where we are, and so we go there.

He wants us to sit right in the middle of the village and everybody's afraid. I'm like, don't show that you're afraid. Just say, relax, smile. Just follow my lead. I'm just trying to see what he is going to do, and he brings [01:25:00] a life goat. And I'm like, oh Jesus, this is a sacrifice time. Everybody's like, what is he going to do with the goat?

I'm like, just smile. So just get yourself ready. He's going to kill the goat. All right? And probably we're going to have to eat it. And they're like, no, I don't want to eat it. There's no choice. So just nod, smile. People are drunk. It's not good. So they kill the goat. The blood goes everywhere. And so one girl is not feeling bad, so I just tell her like, just close your eyes.

Just pretend to sleep. I'm like, now we must make him accept that he's going to lose the girl and we're going to leave. He's not ready to accept that. So if he feels that we reject him right now, we are dead. We must feel close. Instead of going away from him, we must stay close to him. Even though we're afraid, even though we don't want to eat anything, you are not hungry at all.

Stay close. And so he cooks the goat and nobody's hungry at all, and he drops some pieces of meat in [01:26:00] front of us and nobody wants to eat. I'm like, you eat, you fake like eating. You're happy. You're happy. Hmm. Good, good. Just keep eating. Everybody's happy. Make him happy. He's just grieving right now. Just let it just relax.

Don't drink alcohol. Don't accept alcohol. We need to make the party go down. And so after a couple of hours of fake eating and stuff like that, the mood goes down. Everybody gets tired and we go make a big group hug to the prince.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Guillaume Dulude: And now it was okay. It was one of the scariest moment because it's not for me, it's the security of everyone.

Jordan Harbinger: Sure. Yeah.

Guillaume Dulude: So the next morning he accepted to walk us back, but that's the moment I said, I'm never going to bring. Anyone with me anymore in any tribe.

Jordan Harbinger: I don't blame you. I'm surprised you did that. But I guess there was an experiment.

Guillaume Dulude: I knew this tribe for many years. It was the safest tribe that I know. But the problem is that this girl, she broke the rules that I set.

It's very specific psychological rule that I explained. There [01:27:00] is a distance, there's a way to do it. You cannot give presents. She was giving presents while I was not looking. Yeah, she corrupted the whole thing. Only one girl, she put us all at risk. Very dangerous. Yeah, that's very, so one mind can put a whole village at risk just with one person.

So psychology to me, it's like you have to be extremely precise because the brain is very powerful.

Jordan Harbinger: That's fascinating, man. Some of these tribes, life is viewed differently out there. I mean, what are these called? Like miny? Miny babies. Basically, if the top teeth come in first, they will kill the baby. This isn't all the tribes, obviously.

I'm just speaking about one, but I was looking at photos. Of my kids. The other day I was looking at a photo of my son and I was like, oh, yeah, before he had any teeth. And then it was like, wait. He was probably like one and a half, maybe like two. I can't remember exactly how old he was, but he wasn't like a newborn baby.

It's so sad. Thinking about raising somebody for a year and a half and then you go, oh, their top teeth came [01:28:00] in. I got to kill him. That's just terrible.

Guillaume Dulude: Yeah. Humans.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah,

Guillaume Dulude: humans believe in stuff and once there's a belief inside, a human mind is very resistant. So in their mind, if the top teeth are coming up like before the other ones, it's like the demon that is living inside the baby.

And unfortunately, you need to kill the baby humans.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Guillaume Dulude: Sad humans believe in stuff today. It's funny because, oh my God, it's just because they're primitive. We also have beliefs here that don't make any sense. Of course.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, of

Guillaume Dulude: course. In 50 years we will laugh about that, but right now we believe in stuff that do not make sense.

That does not make sense at all. So humans, they always believe in stuff to create some kind of meaning. The problem is that sometimes it's not connected with reality at all, and you can create a lot of damage. Same as today.

Jordan Harbinger: These casa clans that you visited were fascinating, man. They kidnap their wives.

They also have love marriages, but [01:29:00] I found it notable. The kidnap marriages tend to outlast the love marriages. I thought like, why can't that be? Maybe more traditional people do the kidnapping, so they're less likely to separate because they have more traditional values. It seems a little counterintuitive that a woman that you literally kidnap off the street is less likely to divorce you than somebody who fell in love with you in the first place.

Guillaume Dulude: This is a really hot topic. If you would ask like what it's all about. To someone with certain ideologies today, they will say that it's because women are victim. Of course, I will never approve kidnapping people. It's just that. Cultures are complicated and it's very easy to judge. It's one of the biggest challenge to me when you meet someone is to avoid judgment.

It's very hard because we come with values, we come with priorities. We come with a version of what's good and what's bad, and you're like inside a house with a couple and they're just explaining randomly, [01:30:00] like very casually. Yeah. I kidnapped her and then she was like, Hmm, yeah, she kidnapped me. Like real kidnapping.

Like not real. Yeah. Real kidnapping, but it's a crime. No, it's just how it is. I'm so happy. So it's so cute. Yeah. But you said you were crying. Yeah, but it's a normal cry when you're getting kidnapped. It's like, how do you want me to make sense of this?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Guillaume Dulude: And for me, when you meet. People that are different from you.

You go in different cultures and you have this kind of things in your face. It really forces you to think like what's really good and bad? What is your conception of what good and bad? How quick are you to judge? And of course, we all have our preferences, we all have our values and it's fine are cultures that I like better than others because they fit more with me.

It's more natural for me, but it doesn't mean that it's wrong to do something different. And this is hard for us to conceive that very, very hard.

Jordan Harbinger: Mariana Van Zeller was on this show. She runs that show trafficked on Nat Geo. I don't know if you've ever seen it. Yes. Yeah. She did an episode about, I think [01:31:00] it was Laos.

Their tradition is also they kidnap the women and they'll do it off the street. The problem is there are also now a ton of real kidnappings from like Chinese gangs, kidnapping the women and selling them in China, and nobody does anything because here, if somebody's going to kidnap off the street, everybody's stopping.

People are going to intervene because it's not normal. But there, since there'll be people who go, oh, it's probably a family thing, or maybe he's going to propose. And it's like, no, this is actually just a real kidnapping. Yeah, that,

Guillaume Dulude: that's a bad one.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. Yeah. So they're trying to figure out how to deal with it, and there's these volunteer organizations that are like.

Stop kidnapping. If you're going to do a kidnap marriage, arrange this. So it's done like in out of your home where there's people that know, like, you know, don't do it on the street. And if you see a kidnapping on the street, you should intervene even if you think it's a marriage proposal, just in case it's not.

So it's like a crazy scenario in which this is blown up into something that was never meant to be at all.

Guillaume Dulude: Isn't that fascinating? Like, [01:32:00] humans make up these things, they just make that up. Yeah. You know what, we're going to do that it's going to work. And everybody's like, yeah, I think it's good. And they just do it.

Jordan Harbinger: I'm curious, actually, I, I should look this up, but it probably starts with like a folk tale where some ancient prince kidnapped the princess and blah, blah, blah, and then they're like, you know what, let's just all do that. Let's just all do that because that's how you get a blessed marriage or something.

And then it's like, for a thousand years they're kidnapping the bride from another tribe, and then it's all good because everybody's happy afterwards and whatever. Who cares? And then it's like now, now we live in a civilization where you don't need to do that, eh, but it's a tradition. There's a tribe, I think also in Laos called, uh, in Vietnam, they're called Hmong.

It's like a mountain tribe. And during the war, they were on the side of the United States against the communists. So the, A ton of them moved to Michigan, where I'm from. So a lot of the Asian people are not Chinese, they're Hmong. So they also do this kidnapping thing, and not necessarily a bunch in Michigan.

But I had a [01:33:00] buddy who was also Hmong, and he was like, Hey, if I ever propose to my girlfriend, will you guys help me kidnap her? And I remember running this by our parents, me and the other guys, and they were like, hell no, you're going to get arrested and put in prison. We were like, no, it's how they do it.

And we were in high school, so it was like never happened too young. But I just thought, man. That's like a bucket list thing. Like I want to kidnap your wife for you. As long as we're not going to get in trouble for it. I'm in, you know, getaway driver.

Guillaume Dulude: It's surreal. It's like a film.

Jordan Harbinger: Look, if it's really traditional and it's part of thing and everybody's in on it, the mom's there clapping on the porch fine.

But as soon as somebody starts crying, I'm out.

Guillaume Dulude: Crying is like, there's maybe something wrong. You know if maybe there's a line crossed.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, exactly. No, that's hella scary. You went Namibia a, that dude at the village. That guy was at least a full head and a half taller than you, and you're pretty tall. How tall do you think that guy was?

Guillaume Dulude: Probably 7, 7, 5.

Jordan Harbinger: How [01:34:00] common is that? Because I would think if you live hunter gatherer, you can't get 5,000 calories a day that easily or whatever. Somebody like that needs to be that big. That was crazy to me.

Guillaume Dulude: It's the tallest guy I've ever met. I think he was so tall. I remember it's a heba. It's a Heba village and I went there and they live in, it's called a ral.

The Ral. It's a round circle made out of wood and there's an inner circle and it's built like a cell. I arrive in front of this crawl and I'm like, oh, and I'm trying to see if there's something, you know, moving the crawl is really high, but the fence is really high and I see the top of the head like moving.

I'm like, are they on top of something and just see the top of his head. He opens up and this guy comes in and he is like a giant with a weird haircut. He was so funny. No, it's rare. It was not common. He was the chief of the village, but I don't know how he got this genetic, but it's [01:35:00] unusual. They're not as tall as that.

Jordan Harbinger: I was curious. Calories got to be hard to come by. I mean,

Guillaume Dulude: milk is their base of calorie, so that's most of their diet. It's milk.

Jordan Harbinger: I know what I forgot to ask about the smoke baths so that people don't smell bad. That was like women in this tribe doing this. Right.

Guillaume Dulude: That's one of the funniest thing I've seen.

Seriously.

Jordan Harbinger: I couldn't get over that. I had to pause and rewind. Because I was like, wait. In my understanding what they're doing, they're basically, they're going to get married. Right. The women and they don't want to smell bad, so they just like light a fire and stand over it.

Guillaume Dulude: Yeah. The tall guy, his name is Kao, that was his wife.

I wanted to talk with his wife. You know, I had a translator with me. I go inside a hut and she's starting to fire and do like little powders and I'm like, what are you doing? And she says, I'm going to take a shower. So I'm like, where? Yeah. Where's the water? What's She says a shower of smoke. A shower of smoke.

Okay. And she says like, it's between my legs. I'm like, okay, you want to [01:36:00] shower between your legs? She says, yeah, to be clean. Okay, so you want to clean between your legs?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah,

Guillaume Dulude: parts with smoke. And she says, yeah. I'm like, why? Yeah. She says, obviously, because I want to be clean for my man.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Guillaume Dulude: I'm like, yeah, but not to wash with water.

And she's like, oh, you're crazy. And it's really crazy to say that to wash with water doesn't make any sense. It's like water. No, you drink water. You don't wash with water. So it doesn't make any sense. There is no connection between a shower and water.

Jordan Harbinger: That's fascinating.

Guillaume Dulude: So like, okay, she sits right in front of this little fire with smoke.

It's only little smoke with kind of a spice in it, and she puts a cloth over it. So she keeps the smoke and between her legs and she keeps talking to me like she's showering like this. I'm like, okay. And after Kao, the tall guy comes in and suddenly, I'm not sure if I'm allowed. Is that okay? Is she taking a shower with me?

Is [01:37:00] that bad? And I'm like, ah, sorry. Kao said, oh fine. Oh, okay. And after he says, me too, I need to clean up. Oh, okay, you're going to take like a smoke shower. He says, no, I'm going to put fat on me. I'm like, what do you mean fat? He says, look at my necklace, because they have big necklaces. I have no fat on my necklace anymore.

Look, I'm trying to understand what he's talking about. I'm like, okay, you don't have fat on your necklace. And I said, what do you mean? She says, look, I need my fat. And he takes a little bowl of animal fat mixed with rotten milk and it's black and oily and it smells super bad.

Jordan Harbinger: That was my next question.

Guillaume Dulude: Yeah. He puts like his oil like this. And I'm like, okay. He says, you see it's much better

Jordan Harbinger: now. I'm ready for action.

Guillaume Dulude: Exactly. And I was like, okay, but what happens if you don't do that? He says, everybody's going to laugh at me. I cannot just get out like this. What will I look like? I didn't notice. You're always beautiful.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Yeah. Wow.

Guillaume Dulude: This is so fascinating for me. Like the reality that human beings conceptualize [01:38:00] a reality and believe in it. And this is the standard. You have to see that to believe. It's like a smoke shower for lady parts, and I need to wear all my fat. Otherwise, it's

Jordan Harbinger: going out with no pants on.

Guillaume Dulude: It's the same thing.

Jordan Harbinger: The smell in that marital bedroom is got to be just next level. It's

Guillaume Dulude: quite interesting.

Jordan Harbinger: That tribe had some crazy rituals. There was a coming of age ritual. I meant to talk about this earlier. It included having cow intestines put on her head. But then they removed two of her lower teeth with a rock and a stick hammer, and then they rubbed cow dung in her hair.

I felt bad for that girl. She had a quite a day.

Guillaume Dulude: Another really interesting story, these younger girls, they wanted to become real women. So in this transition we need to do a couple of things and switch their hair around. So the hair configuration indicates where you are in the social structure. [01:39:00] So when you're a young lady and you have the braids coming like horns at the front, it's because you're still a kid when it flips and when you change the hair for women, for men's different, now you are a real woman.

They were doing this ritual of just before changing their hair. First, you must kill a cow. You must take the skin of the stomach. One of the chief of the village must read the future inside the skin. Oh yeah, I

Jordan Harbinger: forgot about that part.

Guillaume Dulude: Yeah. Yeah. You must read the future inside the cows, intestines and skin and blood.

And after you take that, you put it on top of their head for one day. After that, they must remove two teeth.

Jordan Harbinger: A bottom two teeth. Yeah.

Guillaume Dulude: Bottom two teeth. And the way to do that is they call the dentist, but the dentist is just a guy.

Jordan Harbinger: With a rock and a sticker.

Guillaume Dulude: With a rock. And they go like this and they knock the two teeth.

And I was like, okay, we're going to ask this. That's a huge privilege. It's not stage or nothing, it's [01:40:00] real. But my cameraman is very sensitive. He's very respectful with that.

Jordan Harbinger: He, he might be in the wrong gig if he is sensitive.

Guillaume Dulude: He was like, I cannot film that man. I'm like, what do you mean? He says, I cannot put my camera on his face like she's getting her teeth broken.

We need to film that. It's a unique thing that we're here for that. And we asked and they said it was fine. And he was like, mm-hmm. Not filming that. And I had to stop everything and was like, hang on. And his name is also Guillaume. ESM is like, Guillaume, get yourself together, man. Come on. We need to film that.

I convinced him, but he says, I cannot get too close because it, I cannot. It's too offensive. I'm like, okay, like Zoom. Then.

Jordan Harbinger: Use the Zoom.

Guillaume Dulude: For God's sake.

Just use the

Jordan Harbinger: zoom. Yeah. She was having quite a day. I mean, I, you feel bad for these people. Oh yeah. Because that is extremely painful. And then to make her all dirty with the cow intestines and the dung.

Guillaume Dulude: But the funny thing is that the day after they're so happy.

Jordan Harbinger: She's happy.

Guillaume Dulude: Yeah. They're like, I'm a real woman now. And they're so proud of themselves and you're like, so everything was fine. Everything you've done [01:41:00] yesterday, breaking your face and all that stuff.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Guillaume Dulude: You know, it gets you thinking, do we have transitions here?

How do we move on with our lives? What's the social structure or the rituals that push us from one phase of your life to another? We don't really have that. So it's be happy, have success, be successful in your life, but it's not really clear on how to do that. In our culture, in other cultures, it's clear.

And so yes, it looks like it doesn't make sense for us, and it's tough and it's suffering, but for them, they're proud. I've never heard someone of my entourage saying like, I wish I'm going to be circumcised rock.

Jordan Harbinger: Right?

Guillaume Dulude: But young men ask that because they want to be in that club of real men. So it's quite fascinating.

Jordan Harbinger: So what's the next project, man? What are you working on now that you could talk about?

Guillaume Dulude: I'm working with my wife and I would like to show the origin of love, the origin of [01:42:00] men, women relationships. And I would like to understand in the most remote places in the world how the selection happens. How a man select a woman, how a man select a man, and how they build a relationship together.

So the origin of love, the origin of intimate relationship, and how the environment influence what kind of partner you choose. So depending on where you live, what are the challenges, depending on the environment. You're going to need certain skills and it influence who you're going to partner up.

Jordan Harbinger: Hunting skills, kidnapping skills,

Guillaume Dulude: all kinds of, you know what we're talking about.

There are all kinds of ways to be in love, to be intimate, to get married, and to have a long-term relationship. And I want to go back to figure out what's in common for all humans.

Jordan Harbinger: That'll be super interesting man. I feel like the smoke shower might make another appearance if you're doing show that it's going to come back.

It's going to come back. For sure. It's come back. For sure man. Thanks for coming. I really am so glad we finally got to [01:43:00] do this. I would ask where people can see this show, and I know people are going to ask me, but I know it's also only in French, so I had to watch it with subtitles, which it's not publicly available.

Basically your wife made me that

Guillaume Dulude: Yes.

Jordan Harbinger: Pakage to watch. So where can people who speak French watch the show?

Guillaume Dulude: I would say like, I think. It's fun to watch, even though you don't speak French, forget about the language. Just feel the experience, feel the looks, especially if someone have listened to our interview to get the spirit of what we're going to look for.

People will have fun. I think you don't need to understand all the language, so you just go on TV five and it's all free. It's all online, and there are eight episodes in all different climates, hunting with Eagles and minus 40 and all kinds of things. So TV five, it's called tribal. It's all free, so it's accessible.

Jordan Harbinger: We'll link to that in the show notes. We may need your help finding that link because I don't think that Bob speaks French, but yeah, that'll be fun [01:44:00] because people are going to go like, man, I got to see this. And I agree. I think you could totally watch it without speaking French. Honestly, there were plenty of times where I had to go back and read the subtitles, but after this conversation, you have enough background, you could just play it and get it.

90% of what's going on. Now that you know about the smoke shower, you won't be left.

Yes.

Guillaume Dulude: In

Jordan Harbinger: the dark, man. Thank you very much.

Guillaume Dulude: Thank you so much for inviting me. It's an honor.

Jordan Harbinger: He's eating baboon hands in the wild. You're eating Uber Eats and still making bad decisions. So what do we take away from all this?

Well, aside from the fact that most of us wouldn't last six hours out there without crying, bargaining, and trying to Venmo someone for help, there's something kind of wild about it, no pun intended. There are communities with no shared language, no shared culture, no technology, and yet somehow connection still happens.

Trust gets built, friendships form. People teach you how to survive, and in some cases, how to not die immediately from doing something incredibly stupid. Meanwhile, back home, we can't even make eye contact with our neighbors. So maybe the lesson here isn't go wander into the wilderness with a chicken and a [01:45:00] dream.

Maybe it's be a little more curious, be a little more humble, and maybe don't assume you understand how the world works just because you got wifi or, I don't know. Stay home and listen to podcasts where other people almost die for your entertainment and education. That works too. All things Guillaume Dulude will be in the show notes on the website, advertisers deals, discount codes, waste to support this show.

All on the website as well at jordanharbinger.com/deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Don't forget about Six Minute Networking as well over at sixminutenetworking.com. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn, and this show is created in association with PodcastOne.

My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Tadas Sidlauskas, Ian Baird, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for the show is you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting. In fact, the greatest compliment you can give us is to share the show with those you care about.

If you know somebody who's interested in, I don't know, wildlife, Nat Geo stuff, uncontacted tribes, these aren't quite uncontacted, but you know what [01:46:00] I mean, share this episode with 'em. In the meantime, I hope you'll apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.