1319: Is Your Loving Wife Living a Closeted Life? | Feedback Friday

1319: Is Your Loving Wife Living a Closeted Life? | Feedback Friday

This transcript is yet untouched by human hands. Please proceed with caution as we sort through what the robots have given us. We appreciate your patience!

Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] This episode is brought to you by Lufthansa. Lufthansa Allegris is an innovative, elevated travel experience across all classes, focusing on each person with their own individual and situational needs. Look forward to your own feel good moment above the clouds. Visit lufthansa.com and search for Allegris to learn more.

Lufthansa Allegris. All it takes is a yes.

Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with feedback. Friday producer, my increasingly feral and atavistic partner in crime, Gabriel Mizrahi,

Gabriel Mizrahi: speaking of which, I pulled what appeared to be some kind of tiny, I don't know, marine animal out of my foot yesterday, actually it was two of them.

So yeah. Perfect nickname this

Jordan Harbinger: week. Yeah, that is incredibly disgusting. But I'm glad I'm not the only one with weird travel foot stories.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I was actually thinking about you with the puddle in, where was that? Morocco? Egypt.

Jordan Harbinger: Egypt.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I was like, if Jordan can survive a full on foot infection from stepping in.

[00:01:00] Stagnant, was it camel piss?

Jordan Harbinger: It wasn't a foot infection. I had a blood infection. I had staph in my blood. Oh

Gabriel Mizrahi: my God, dude, if you could deal with that,

Jordan Harbinger: that was hospital antibiotics when I got home. Basically,

Gabriel Mizrahi: if you could deal with that, with the help of some bootleg Egyptian pharmacy meth, then I think I can dig these Rite Aid tweezers into my ankle for a few minutes and dig whatever weird little white mollusk is in my heel and ankle, I'll be okay.

Jordan Harbinger: That's the power of story right there. Glad I could inspire you with my incredible stupidity.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You do it every week, my man.

Jordan Harbinger: I am honored on The Jordan Harbinger Show. We decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, former cult members, arms traffickers, former jihadi hostage negotiators. This week we had an episode with my friend Guillaume Dulude, who essentially goes into the middle of nowhere, contacts [00:02:00] tribes and tries to live with them.

Not speaking their language. Brings a chicken and a bow and arrow and basically nothing else. Really super interesting guy with a super interesting, I don't know what you would call it, hobby. We also did a Skeptical Sunday last Sunday on homelessness. On Fridays though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious sound bites, and ride this existential carousel so the wheels fall off.

Do carousels have wheels? I don't know, plates, gears, pistons, however those babies turn lots to get into today. Let's dive right in. Gabe, what is the first thing out of the mailbag?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe, my wife, I'll call her Jen, and I have been together for almost five years.

Jordan Harbinger: Cool. That won't be weird or confusing for me at all.

Gabriel Mizrahi: We met in the summer of 2021 and moved in together that November. Since we've been together, Jen hasn't been very interested in intimacy or affection. When we started dating, things were intimate and affectionate enough, but not quite where I'd hoped they'd be. After about a year, she admitted to [00:03:00] me that she was raped as a teenager.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh man, that's so sad. Very intense thing to hear. Even more intense thing to go through. Of course. I'm so sorry.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I empathized with her and encouraged her to seek therapy. She resisted for some time, but eventually went though it didn't last long as the therapist was not a good match and it turned her off from therapy for another couple of years.

I was disappointed, but figured she might just need time to warm up to the idea.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's unfortunate. I wonder if this therapist was so bad that it really turned her off, or if she just maybe didn't want to have to continue talking about this stuff with somebody new.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hmm. Must be really hard though.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I can only imagine. But my God, you go through something like that, you gotta talk about it with somebody.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hmm. A few years went by and we got married in October, 2023. Intimacy levels hadn't changed when we were intimate. It was always me who initiated and did the work. I tried introducing new things and making her more comfortable, but it was all met with disinterest.[00:04:00]

I attributed this to her sexual trauma and didn't push it. Eventually, we had our son in December, 2024. About 16 months ago, I kept encouraging her to find a therapist and she finally found one she liked.

Jordan Harbinger: Nice. That's a way to do it. Not too heavy handed, but consistently supportive.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Her therapist suggested she get tested for OCD and she was eventually diagnosed and is now in exposure and response prevention therapy.

ERP. For those unfamiliar OCD doesn't usually look the way it does on tv. It typically involves an intrusive thought or obsession that takes over your mind until you perform some action, a compulsion to relieve it. It manifests differently in everyone. And for a time I thought her issues with intimacy could be attributed to the OCD diagnosis.

We also started couples therapy around this time, which has been great. Our couples therapist has experience with OCD and we've been able to see eye to eye on many aspects of our relationship for the first time.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow, that's [00:05:00] huge. So glad you guys found someone good.

Gabriel Mizrahi: After a few months of both ERP and couples therapy, most issues in our relationship have been resolved except intimacy.

Recently we started watching Arrested Development.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, so good. Although, I'm so curious what that has to do with intimacy, but go on.

Gabriel Mizrahi: There are two married characters, Tobias and Lindsay, whose dynamic struck me as oddly familiar. They get along well, but Tobias consistently avoids intimacy. The joke being that he is a closeted gay man.

You may see where I'm going with this. I've now started to wonder whether Jen might be gay.

Jordan Harbinger: Huh? Okay.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It feels like the only explanation that fits everything. She actively seeks out women only online communities and seems to avoid male friendships. She appears preoccupied with the idea of feeling quote, unquote, normal attraction to me.

She'll see women in these groups post about feeling attracted to their husbands while watching them with their kids, and it devastates her. She [00:06:00] spirals into anxiety that I have to talk her down from. I also found threads from straight men married to closeted lesbians, and while there isn't a wealth of information on this topic, the behaviors they described mirror exactly what I'm experiencing with Jen.

Jordan Harbinger: Fascinating. It's one theory, I guess

Gabriel Mizrahi: virtually all of our close family are allies, so it seems the main obstacle to her coming out is the weight of dismantling, the life we've built together, which I imagine is enormous.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's so intense.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I should mention that. Outside of intimacy, Jen and I genuinely get along really well.

We laugh together, parent well as a team, and rarely fight about anything else. That's part of what makes this so hard. The deeper issue is that I'm not sure Jen knows this about herself yet, or if she does, she hasn't accepted it either way. I sense she may be getting closer to understanding it. It's not fair to either of us to remain in a marriage where attraction is one sided.

But I'm not angry with her. [00:07:00] This clearly isn't something she understood when we married and had a child together.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that is incredibly compassionate of you, man. That's going to make all the difference, I think. I'm sure

Gabriel Mizrahi: if we do separate. I'm fully committed to co-parenting and maintaining a good relationship.

My love for Jen hasn't disappeared. It's just changed.

Jordan Harbinger: Wonderful. As wonderful as something like this can be,

Gabriel Mizrahi: I know you're not supposed to confront a closeted person with your suspicions about their sexuality. I also don't want to create drama, especially for our son's sake. A separation done poorly could mean an ugly custody arrangement, and more importantly, an unstable environment for a child who deserves to grow up seeing his parents treat each other with kindness and respect.

Ideally, I want us to be the kind of separated parents who still show up to birthday parties together, who don't speak poorly of each other, and who make it clear to our son that both of his parents love him and love each other in their own way, just not in the way that a marriage requires. I also want to maintain my relationship with her family, and I worry [00:08:00] that initiating a separation without a clear explanation will damage that trust.

Jordan Harbinger: Dude, I gotta say I'm super moved by all of this. Do you know how few people think this way? It's really special. I hope your wife feels this too, and she knows it's going to be okay

Gabriel Mizrahi: more than anything. I don't want Jen to feel exposed, judged, or blindsided, whatever the truth turns out to be, she deserves to arrive at it with her dignity intact.

I just don't know how to protect everyone at once. How do I broach this topic and how do I initiate a separation signed, trying to glean some advice on whether to deem that my marriage is losing steam because my wife, for whom it's a tricky theme. Might be playing for the other team.

Jordan Harbinger: Dang, you made your wife gay, bro.

No, I'm kidding. Sorry, I couldn't resist. There's a lot going on here, man.

Gabriel Mizrahi: A lot.

Jordan Harbinger: A lot. First of all, I'm very sorry that your wife has struggled with some very difficult things over the years. The tragic assault, OCD, the struggle with intimacy, [00:09:00] everything that brings up, it's just a lot to work through for both of you.

Like I said, though, man, I'm so heartened by your lens on all this. Really, I am. I know it's been hard, but I'm sure that having a spouse who's patient and understanding in all these ways that you are, I'm sure that's made a huge difference to her. You've gone to therapy, you've listened, you guys have grown, and along the way, I assume you've also invested in a foundation together that might allow you guys to have these bigger conversations one day.

But you're right, coming right out and being like, are you gay? I mean, not completely off limits, but look, I'm sure you'd broach the topic in a loving and respectful way, but man, that's a delicate conversation. I don't envy you here. It might also not yield the best results if she's still grappling with some shame and conflict around maybe being gay and hasn't come to her own conclusions yet.

Gabriel Mizrahi: We also don't know for sure that she's gay.

Jordan Harbinger: That's the other thing I, I get that he is connecting these dots and the dots. They make a lot of sense. But yeah, I'm not a hundred percent convinced this is all about her [00:10:00] orientation either.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Even if it is what's going on. It's not the only thing. There's a trauma, there's anxiety, there's OCD, the, there are these ideas about how she's supposed to feel, supposed to be.

It's tricky.

Jordan Harbinger: Actively seeking out women only online communities, avoiding male friendships. That could be a person who's interested in women. It could also be a person who just doesn't feel safe with men and is struggling to feel at home in her marriage, and she has all kinds of reasons not to feel safe with men.

So maybe we need to make room for a few possibilities here. Yeah, she could be gay, she could be not gay. She could be sexual or asexual, traumatized, anxious, or some combination thereof, all at the same time.

Gabriel Mizrahi: She's a complex person with a number of complex experiences. I guess the question is, if his ultimate goal is to separate, which it sounds like it is, then does he need Jen to tell him that she's gay or whatever label she wants to land on, or are they at a point where whatever is going on with her, it's clear that something needs to change between them?

Jordan Harbinger: That's where my head's at. He wants to be able to [00:11:00] give people an explanation before he decides to separate. He wants to be on solid ground. He wants to be able to point to something specific so everybody knows why they're separating. But if she is gay, that's ultimately for her to discover or recognize, and it's up to her whether she wants to own it and when, and that could take some time.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But if we put aside the orientation piece, there are these symptoms, right? There's the intimacy gap, the anxiety, the shame, the preoccupation with normal. All of that is super relevant to the definition of their marriage. I don't know. My instinct is telling me that that's more important to focus on right now.

Jordan Harbinger: I agree. And that's also what's going to help her understand who she really is.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So the safer approach and probably the more effective one, is to continue inviting your wife to talk about all of this stuff with as much love and as little judgment as possible, which you are already doing, and help her see that whatever labels or answers or feelings she comes to, they're all welcome based on what you've shared.

As long as they feel true and move her closer to an authentic experience of herself.

Jordan Harbinger: And is part of that [00:12:00] conversation, do you think it might be interested in women?

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's not where I'd go first or too soon for the reasons that you just laid out. She can come to this in our own words, in our own time. I feel like that would probably be ideal.

Jordan Harbinger: Going right at it. Yeah. That might cause her to retreat and hide even more.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It might. He knows her best, but if they get into more and more of this stuff and she starts sharing a number of things that clearly suggests she's gay and he gets the sense that she's circling the words, but she's like too afraid to say them or something, and they've built a good foundation and it feels appropriate.

At a certain point, I guess he could say something like, thank you for sharing all of this with me. I know it's not easy to talk about. I'm just here to listen here to understand, but what I'm hearing is this and that, and I'm wondering, have you wondered whether you might be interested in women or not only interested in men, or I guess if you want to be even less pointed, do you feel attracted to anyone?

What is that attraction like?

Jordan Harbinger: I like that The more open-ended, the questions, the better. I think

Gabriel Mizrahi: along the way, it might also be nice to tell her what you [00:13:00] told us, which is that your love for her will never disappear, even if it evolves. If she can take that in, I wonder if that might make her feel safe to finally share this, but again.

It's possible that she never gives you a a clear answer on this or that her answer takes longer than you're willing to wait.

Jordan Harbinger: A straight answer, one might say,

Gabriel Mizrahi: yeah, that's right.

Jordan Harbinger: Sorry, I'm incredibly juvenile on this question. I dunno what's wrong with me today.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, her answers might be hella gay. I don't know.

Jordan Harbinger: You just one up. Me three up to me on that one. Wow.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But so again, I think there's a version of this conversation that is just about the two of you and your respective needs and your feelings that doesn't necessarily hinge on her orientation.

Jordan Harbinger: Look, they have plenty of challenges here that assuming they can't work on them or don't want to work on them, they're perfectly legitimate reasons to say, look, there's still tons of love here.

We're a team forever. But I feel the definition of our relationship needs to change.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I agree with that

Jordan Harbinger: and actually framing it around her orientation. This is the point. The point is, are they really a true married couple? The reasons [00:14:00] almost don't even matter.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, they matter, but it's like

Jordan Harbinger: it's secondary.

For sure.

Gabriel Mizrahi: She doesn't need to say, this is who I am. For them to say, there's a problem here. To your point, yeah. My sense, based on a few things he shared with us is that if he can get her to say, okay, so I'm gay, then he will feel safe to separate. Now I get that. That certainly makes things neater, but why that's so important to him specifically, I think that might actually be the real question here.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, as we keep talking about our friend here is extraordinarily compassionate, kind, sensitive. He doesn't want her to feel exposed, judged, blindsided, robbed of her dignity as he put it. All of which again, very noble, beautiful. Frankly, if you're a lesbian and you need to come out to your husband, this is the dream husband to have to come out to, I would imagine.

But I'm also just appreciating. How accommodating he is toward his wife and how she seems to be the opposite in a lot of ways. Hard to locate, guarded, not always forthcoming, not always easy to help. And I say that knowing she went to therapy and all that, which is excellent, but I think [00:15:00] both are true and she has good reasons for that.

Don't get me wrong, trauma, culture, childhood personality, all that stuff is powerful. So I have a lot of compassion for that as well.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But you're looking at all that and you're going like, come on, girl, work with him a little bit here.

Jordan Harbinger: Kinda, yeah. I mean, he's literally saying, I love you no matter what. I'm your family no matter what.

Look around. You're surrounded by allies, and I'm not sure she's fully honoring the opportunity. I'm not blaming her per se. I'm just noticing a big gap in their ways of talking about all of this.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No, because what you're noticing is actually really important, which is that like he's doing a lot of work for other people here, his wife, her family, their son, but.

So much so that I almost have a hard time locating him and all. What does he need? What does he want? I'm not clear on that.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. He obviously wants reciprocal intimacy, a true marriage, but I'm having the same reaction. He almost seems overly oriented towards everybody else but himself.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. That's more what I meant.

So if that's part of their dynamic, he does a lot of emotional work for her, drawing her out, [00:16:00] making her feel safe, talking her down. When she spirals again, to your point, Jordan, all of which are wonderful in the right amounts, is it possible that that almost lets her off the hook to some degree, for being in these conversations?

Jordan Harbinger: I think maybe because it's possible that she knows he'll keep showing up and drawing her out, and she can keep spiraling or avoiding, or only sharing selectively.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, exactly. I know we're speculating a little bit, we could be off, but I do wonder if that dynamic, if it exists, is that moving them closer to the truth and closer to each other, or is it moving them further away?

Jordan Harbinger: That's a good question because I'm sure he's going, but I couldn't be more patient and understanding how is this not making her more willing to tell the truth? But if that patient's an understanding are actually enabling her procrastination or avoidance, then suddenly it kind of becomes an obstacle.

Yeah,

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm still thinking about that thing you said, I just don't know how to protect everyone at once.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. Okay. That jumped out at me too, and when you read that, my first thought was, dude, you can't protect everyone all at once. That's not how this works at all.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No, he can't. Nobody can do that. But the fact that [00:17:00] protecting everyone at once feels important to him, that might be a big piece of what we're talking about because one of his concerns is what her family is going to think if they separate.

He's afraid of damaging their trust if he can't say, here's this very specific and legitimate reason that we're separating and it's not my fault. But as we keep saying, the problems in their marriage exist. Whether she identifies as gay or not, he's already, I think, on solid ground just by acknowledging these challenges.

But he's looking for a reason that is clear and external, and that way you can feel secure and potentially tell everyone else. Look guys, I'm not the bad guy. She was in the closet.

Jordan Harbinger: I'm not cruel, I'm not selfish, I'm not capricious. It's her.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So I think this might be a nice opportunity for him to ask a few questions like, why exactly do I feel the need to protect everyone here?

And why is that only my job? What does protecting everyone actually mean when you get down to it? Does it mean being equally compassionate to your wife and her family and your child and yourself? Does it mean balancing all of your needs in some magical [00:18:00] way? Does it mean doing what's right for you without being unfair to your wife or.

Does it mean making sure that nobody in this situation has any difficult feelings or gets hurt whatsoever?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's kind of the vibe I'm getting, really.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's the vibe I'm getting as well. So once again, that's kind of the shadow side of kindness, if you want to put it that way. Like if he's so gentle toward his wife that he's making it hard to have some pointed conversations that might provoke her, that could be another way that he is inadvertently making this harder.

Jordan Harbinger: Such an important point. I might even go a step further and say, your goal obviously shouldn't be to hurt your wife, but part of your job might be to gently, inappropriately push her to talk about some things that might bring up some difficult feelings in her. For example, I, because to say the obvious, there's no growth or progress or coming to terms without some pain.

That's just, that's how it works. There just isn't. You can't do that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Of course, his love for her is very touching and it is real. It's a huge gift in her life, a huge gift. But love is compatible with challenging a person with [00:19:00] expecting them to tell you the truth.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, calling their attention to the things they need to look at.

Being in a difficult process with them without taking over, challenging them to put words to feelings even as you're being patient. Whatever it is, it's not going to be a walk in the park. So that's where your wife's story becomes about you in a way. You're both coming out of the closet. Different closets both involve fear, shame, fragility, and uneasiness around your true needs.

And hey, maybe that's even something you bring to her or bring up in couples therapy and you show her what it looks like to say some difficult things and open yourself up to help. Maybe that'll show her that it's survivable and she'll be inspired to do the same. I'm really sorry you and your wife have been through all this.

I'm also, again touched by the way you've shown up for her through all of this. You guys are a really special team. I'm confident that with courage, vulnerability, the ability to say, here's what I need, and here's where we're heading. You guys will talk, listen, come to the right decision about your marriage, whatever grief you feel along the way, and there will be grief.

It's not a sign you're doing [00:20:00] something wrong. In fact, it's probably a sign that you guys are moving into important territory as long as you're both moving towards the truth. The truth about yourselves, the truth about your relationship. I don't think you can go wrong here. I really believe that sending you and your wife a big hug and wishing you all the best.

All right. You know who wants to be in your closet. The amazing sponsors who support this show, we'll be right back.

This episode is sponsored in part by Factor. Picture this, the end of the day, you're exhausted. You got a million things going on. Now you're supposed to figure out dinner. You could cook something healthy, but realistically that is not happening. Eating well was never about willpower. It was always about setup and Factor completely fixed that. Factor's been one of the biggest time savers in our house. No grocery runs, no prep, no cooking, no cleanup. The meals show up ready to go. You heat 'em in two minutes and you're done. It just removes the daily friction that makes healthy eating really hard to stick to, and the food actually tastes great.

It, it kind of caught me off guard actually. I think a lot of us grew up thinking readymade meals are just sad ass TV dinners, and this is the [00:21:00] opposite of that. It's fresh, never frozen. They got more than a hundred rotating options, so you're not like eating the same stuff over and over and getting repetitive.

I go for the protein plus meals, hashtag meathead and the jalapeno lime cheddar chicken. Is phenomenal. I love it. Seriously. I like it's one of the, it's awesome. The one thing I didn't expect is how helpful this has been from my parents too. They're older, they don't cook anymore and left to their own devices.

They're eating potato chips in Bologna, which is not real food with Factor. I know they're getting real nutrition, lean protein, vegetables, no artificial junk, no high fructose corn syrup. They seriously eat like toddlers if I don't feed them this and they don't have to cook or think about it and that alone makes Factor worth it for me.

Jen Harbinger: Head to factormeals.com/jordan50off and use code Jordan50off to get 50% off and free daily greens per box with new subscription only while supplies last until September 27th. 2026. See website for more details.

Jordan Harbinger: This episode is sponsored in part by AT&T. You know why I love summer? All those plans we made, they finally make it out of the group chat.

Seems like there's more time to fit [00:22:00] everybody in whatever you've got in store this summer. Capturing those memories is a must. That's why I love the iPhone 17 Pro I picked up from AT&T. It's center stage, front camera auto. Adjust the frame to fit everyone into group selfies. You don't even have to turn your phone.

No awkward cropping or asking strangers to take it. Just the perfect group selfie every time and AT&T makes sharing those moments with everybody easy. 'cause you gotta share the pick or it didn't happen. Right? Right now at AT&T ask how you can get iPhone 17 Pro on them. With eligible iPhone trade-in any condition requires trade-in of iPhone 15+ or higher, excluding iPhone 16e and 17e, requires eligible plan terms and restrictions apply. Subject to change.

Visit att.com/iphone or visit an AT&T store for details. Thank you for listening to and supporting the show. It is your support of our sponsors that keeps the lights on around here. All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are searchable and clickable on the website at jordanharbinger.com/deals.

Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now back to Feedback [00:23:00] Friday. Okay, next up.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, when I was younger, I was fully committed to family. This was instilled in me being from Brazil as well as being a sensitive person coming to the states at the age of five was incredibly traumatic for various reasons.

I was ripped away from my entire family, was terrified and bullied at school for not speaking English. Lived with a volatile uncle who I saw chasing someone in our house with a hammer to attack him physically at age five or six. And countless other stories that, in hindsight, would clearly cause complex PTSD and they did.

Jordan Harbinger: Geez, what a formative experience. I'm sorry to hear about all this. Being an immigrant is wild, man. You know, it's interesting. I know somebody else who was sent from Brazil to the US as a toddler to live with essentially super distant family. It's a thing I've heard of before. It's not unusual.

Gabriel Mizrahi: My mother, while charming and personable, has often displayed [00:24:00] unstable and narcissistic like behavior.

We moved around a lot every couple of years other than high school where I spent four years. She has married and divorced three times and has been dating a married man for the past 20 years. She was physically very loving, but mentally I've realized it was all pretty toxic.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. That's quite a mom to have.

Gabriel Mizrahi: During my mom's second marriage, stepdad, number one, they had my sister who was born in the us, half Brazilian, half American. Since she was a toddler, she has had an insatiable need for attention that has continued into her adult life. To give you an example, I was in a relationship once and this guy, his family and I were having a conversation.

She jumped in and tried to interrupt with an unrelated topic, but nobody paid attention to her, and she complained about it during a conversation several years later.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Imagine hanging onto the slightest of slight for literally years. Geez,

Gabriel Mizrahi: this girl keeps receipts.

Jordan Harbinger: No, that's an invoice. There's a ledger.

My goodness.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Girl's on [00:25:00] QuickBooks ticking and tying. So she goes on. There's also been this weird competitive aspect to our relationship. When I was working in skincare, all of a sudden she wanted to open a skincare business. When I met my husband in Spain, all of a sudden she took a trip to Spain and started posting photos with a guy who could have passed from my husband's cousin.

If I talk about any subject that's important to me, she all of a sudden has an interest in it and seems like she uses it to garner attention. We have a pretty estranged relationship due to this and a combination of events, and I reached a point about 15 years ago where I just couldn't handle the family dynamic and distance myself almost completely from my sister and quite a bit from my mother.

At some point, my sister became kind of obsessed with quote unquote proving how Brazilian she is. She had the key chain, wore the t-shirt, and became very performative about it.

Jordan Harbinger: Huh? Sounds a little bit like you, Gabe.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You know what? Because I know where this letter's going, I resent that.

Jordan Harbinger: All right. I'm just saying, Hey, if the [00:26:00] bracelet fits, if the seed bracelet fits,

Gabriel Mizrahi: I brought it up while we still had some kind of relationship, and she said it was because she wanted to quote, learn about moms and your culture, unquote, but it seemed like a way to get more attention around that time.

It was much more culturally accepted to be from another country, and it was even considered exotic.

Jordan Harbinger: Pretty sure Brazilian is still considered fairly exotic to most people, but I take your point.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Fast forward to the past couple of years and she's been trying to become an influencer. No surprise there.

I've had to stop watching her feed because it's filled with performative content. On top of all that, my sister and her husband moved to Switzerland for his job for four or five years, and since they've been back, she's acting like she wasn't born and raised here, saying things like we're having culture shock.

Being back and mentioning that her son isn't understanding English in school when my sister and her husband are both native English speakers.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, hilarious. I've sorry. But this is every 19-year-old who studies abroad and comes back with a slight [00:27:00] fake accent, or not so slight fake accent and the hairdo of the country they lived in and a tattoo of the flag, except she's a full grown ass adult and a mother.

I'm getting a picture of this woman in fact. When I was an exchange student in Germany, at the end of the program, we all got together, all the Americans, people I hadn't seen. So this is the first couple days of the exchange. They were all over the country and there was definitely an inverse proportion to if your German was really good at the end it was like, oh I'm, it's going to be great to go home and I'm excited about it and you are doing great.

And all the kids whose German at the end of the year was still garbage. 'cause they'd spent the whole year speaking English. They were like, I barely understand English now. I had to look up the words. I don't even know what you're talking about. And I'm like, that's sad because now you speak zero languages.

So what are you going to do? And they're like, I don't even know how I'm going to go back to school. It's going to be impossible. I have to relearn English. No, not at all. But yeah, we get it. Or people [00:28:00] would have like a German accent and I'm like, why are you speaking English with a German accent? You would've had to learn that.

That's so weird. It's Madonna going to the UK living in London and suddenly doing her next interview with a fake ass British accent. It's so beyond cringe.

Gabriel Mizrahi: There have been many other examples of this, but I want to keep this as concise as possible.

Jordan Harbinger: Eh, I wish you didn't, but okay. I appreciate that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: This is all incredibly triggering for me as an actual immigrant who went through the very real difficulties of coming to this country in the eighties.

It's like she's trying to put on the varsity jacket as though it's her experience. While it's not full on cultural appropriation, it feels like some version of it.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. What is that? When you culturally appropriate your own culture, I don't know. Could you do that?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Cultural auto appropriation?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Cultural auto appropriation. I like that. Did you make that up? I don't know what it means fully, but somehow I also do performative. She's being performative and that's annoying. She is half resilient. [00:29:00] Fine, but there's an act going on here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I've been able to distance myself, but when I go to her house to see my nephews, it seems like she's convinced herself that she's this whole other being because maybe it makes her seem more interesting or exotic.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, a thousand percent. It's almost like when kids get a Disney Princess makeover and then they're singing and doing the Ellis, except when they're four. It's cute. When they're 24. It's a little strange.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Part of me wants to have a conversation with her about this or write a letter to communicate these feelings, not because I think it'll change our relationship or make us any closer, but because it's almost unbearable being around her.

And I would like to continue being able to see my nephews. I've been in therapy in the past for a lot of these issues, but I can't think of a way to express this mindfully and would appreciate your thoughts and perspective. Signed, finding it quite touchy to talk to my sister about our aji.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh wow. Nice.

Okay. Duo lingo, Mr. Worldwide. Over here. [00:30:00]

Gabriel Mizrahi: I dedicate that sign off to Brazil, which continues to blow my mind.

Jordan Harbinger: Such a cool language though, especially the way they speak down there. It's very exotic zone.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh dude, it's something else because you know that I learned Portuguese a little bit in Portugal and it's just, it's very like duh, duh, duh, and like the syllables get collapsed and here it's like music, man, everywhere you go.

It's so awesome.

Jordan Harbinger: Portuguese from Portugal, it sounds like drunk Spanish to me, but Portuguese from Brazil, it sounds like also drunk, but very respectful of foreplay. Yeah,

Gabriel Mizrahi: it's a flirtatious country. You might get a little pregnant settling up the Rotel. You don't know.

Jordan Harbinger: Sexy. So this is a super interesting story.

This reminds me a little bit of this dude, Glen, before college you have an orientation. So you get together with, I don't know, like 20 students that are going to go in and you have this little cadre. There was this guy, Glen, and he was from a suburb and he wore LL Bean sweaters and Birkenstocks and stuff like that.

And he was quiet and shy and he had this normal sort of like basic white dude haircut. And he was very nice. [00:31:00] And then when we got to school, there was this crazy loud dude who was like, yo, what's up? What's up y'all? And his name was Antonio and it turned out to be the same guy. So he went from the LL Bean catalog to repping death row records inside of 60 days.

It was crazy. I've never seen a transformation like that. I was like, this doesn

Gabriel Mizrahi: happened over the summer.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. And I was like, Glen, and he was like, what's up my peeps? And I was like, it was so bizarre. But here's the thing, he was so charismatic and so outgoing and so nice to everyone. That no one called him out on it because it was just like, that's Glenn.

And I'm like, I can't believe it. But he was so cool. It's like, and nobody kind of wanted to out him 'cause it was clearly, he was kind of ashamed of who he was before. And he'd come out of his shell and maybe his middle name was Antonio. I'm just not even going to question that. I don't understand what happened there.

But yeah, he went from like corn fed normal, basic white dude who [00:32:00] probably thought he wasn't interesting enough as a person to yo MTV raps host. And it was really weird and unusual, but again, he was so nice that. Everybody just kinda let it go. So yeah. First of all, I just want to acknowledge what a journey you've been on leaving your home country at five.

Having to leave family behind, living with a violent, crazy person, being bullied at school. This is intense stuff, very formative, and I'm so sorry that it left a mark on you. It sounds like you have an actual C-P-T-S-D diagnosis, and I get it. It's a lot of people do, a lot of immigrants do, especially moving to another country.

Obviously really exciting and stimulating, and I'm sure it brought you a lot of gifts and possibilities. But yeah, it's also very isolating. It's intense. It's a lonely journey at a vulnerable age, no less. And I'm just very sorry about all of it's. That said, you sound like quite a thoughtful, grounded, well-adjusted person.

It sounds like you also have a good sense of boundaries and how to take care of yourself, and I commend you for that. So your sister, candidly, I don't [00:33:00] know exactly what to make of all this. Is it narcissism? Is it insecurity? Is it instability? Is it envy? Does she feel like she doesn't belong with you and your mom and this is a point of connection?

Is she just a really good influencer? Because all these people are like that and she knows she to lean into certain tropes to create a brand, she's gotta have a thing. Honestly, it sounds like all of this could be going on at the same time, but based on what you've shared, my gut is telling me that your sister is mostly just incredibly insecure and it's not even insecurity about not being Brazilian enough.

I think it's insecurity about not being anything enough. See also Glen Antonio transformation, just not being enough and waving this flag, so to speak, cosplaying her own culture. I have a feeling that's a way to kind of, you know, shore up her identity to give her a sense of stability and belonging. Maybe a little bit of power, obviously.

Right. Why else would a person do this? The I'm so Brazilian thing or the whole, I, I'm so just not from here thing. We're [00:34:00] so international. It's gotta be serving some purpose. Unless you were being shamelessly practical. Like, I want to be a Brazilian influencer and this is the way to do it. I have to perform myself.

Even then it's, I think it's fair to ask why now, why your sister is like that. I don't know. You've shared quite a bit about your adverse childhood experiences, your ACEs, ACEs, I'm sure your sister has her own.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Well the biggest one might be being the daughter of this mother too. 'cause they share this mother.

Jordan Harbinger: What did she say about her mother? Charming, personable, unstable, narcissistic.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Narcissistic. Like inconsistent flighty. Sounds a bit impulsive. Yeah. All of these

Jordan Harbinger: And her, her father was stepdad number one, who was one of the three men she married and divorced. Not a great sign.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm also not totally clear on the timeline and the ages here, but mom has been dating a married man for the last 20 years.

So she said she came here in the eighties and her sister was born later. Okay. We don't know, but possibly this relationship with this guy happened during this sister's adolescence as well. Right.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:35:00] Yeah. I actually can't believe I already forgot that detail. A married man for 20 years. Wow. Okay. So mom is a mistress.

So plenty of trauma right there. I can kind of see the math of narcissistic mom probably not attending to her daughter's needs very well. Daughter feeling the need to get attention from other sources and kind of spiraling when she doesn't succeed. I'm sure it's way more nuanced than that, but I can imagine the impact.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Plus there's baseline personality in her position in the family, and feeling like she isn't as connected to their roots as our friend here is, which all of this dysfunction aside is. That's a legitimate feeling. A lot of people struggle with that. So yeah, there are plenty of reasons she might be doing, this is my point.

Jordan Harbinger: You kinda have two options here. They're not mutually exclusive. One option is knowing your sister has her own wounds and challenges. You empathize with her. You let it roll off your back. You forgive her. You don't watch her Instagram, you stay out of her business. It's weird. It's embarrassing. It's attention seeking.

Yes, and it's coming from a wounded place inside her and she deserves some compassion for that. And maybe one [00:36:00] day down the line, she'll start to face it. Option two is you just go at this directly with her and you try and help her see herself more clearly. Get at the roots of this thing and help her change.

There are frankly good arguments to be made for both. I can't really say which one's going to be more effective or which one is right. I think it really comes down to your sister's capacity for hearing feedback, especially from you having some vulnerable conversations about her feelings around this culture thing.

Her willingness to entertain new ideas and see herself more objectively. You of course, know her way better than we do. You also know yourself way better than we do. 'cause that's the other thing. You have to be willing to have this conversation. And if it doesn't go well, you have to kind of also be prepared to sit with those feelings and only you can know if it's worth it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: What if there's a middle way? What if she says to her sister, so, hey, I know that feeling Brazilian is really important to you. I know living in Switzerland was a big deal for you guys. I've noticed that being international seems like that's becoming more and more meaningful to you. You're talking about [00:37:00] it more and more.

I want to understand it better. So like, how are you feeling about our heritage these days? Do you think of yourself as more Brazilian or more American, or how do those two fit together? And what is it about Brazil or Switzerland or whatever country that speaks to you? Do you think when you talk about this with people or when you post about it on Instagram, what comes up for you and just start there.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I like that. Even if she's well within her rights to waive the Brazilian flag and eat macka while wearing a Brazilian flag t-shirt on Instagram or whatever, it's still an interesting question. Why? What are you doing?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Look, her sister might not love these questions, right? And if she gets angry and shuts down fine, that's also good data.

Then you can either say, you seem angry. Did I say something that hurt you? Is this hard to talk about? Do you know? Like, how am I coming across? You could draw her out a little bit, or you can let it go knowing that your sister just is not ready to have this conversation, or she's not interested in having this conversation, or your sister might engage with you.

And slowly but [00:38:00] surely you guys can start digging into this whole question, which is such a fascinating question, like about identity and performance and how you present that to the world. And maybe over time that will lead to some insights that do change the way she talks about our culture. Or maybe she stops talking about it at all.

These are also possible.

Jordan Harbinger: I also wonder if she has a shred of self-awareness or curiosity, which I suppose is an open question. If our friend here starts asking this stuff, her sister might pick up on the subtext. The subtext being, you might want to be more thoughtful about how you wave this flag so it lands the right way, or maybe take a beAT&Think about why being Brazilian is so important to you and maybe she'll kind of self-correct.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That would be great. This is all kind of an experiment. My only caveat is try not to just think of this as a technique. Like you're asking these meaningful questions, but really they're just thinly veiled judgments, right? Your judgments are not entirely unfair. I get why this gets under your skin, but if you're just disguising them as questions, she'll probably feel that, and she sounds particularly [00:39:00] sensitive to that kind of stuff.

So if you're going to ask, really ask and really listen and see if anything she says helps you understand her better. Maybe there's something you don't know about how she feels about being Brazilian. And if it doesn't help you understand her better, you could say that. You could say, I'm really trying to understand you better.

I really want to understand this whole Brazil thing, and I'm not really understanding it. I'm not sure I'm getting there. And maybe ask her to elaborate and then you can decide whether to do anything with that. In terms of actually saying, SIS, I have some feedback for you. Here's how it's coming across.

Here's what I would think about if I were you.

Jordan Harbinger: It's a really interesting dilemma, how to tell a close family member that they're being cringe and tone deaf, whether to tell them it's scary because people who are this unselfaware, they also have the potential to be very wounded by criticism, which again, is probably part of the trauma.

So if you work up to addressing this, you have to be prepared to touch a tender part of her personality and live with the implications. It might not be pretty, but it might be worth the tension if it gives her some information that she needs.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm just thinking about the [00:40:00] fact that her sister seems to take an interest in all the same things that she does.

In a way, yes, that is a bit weird. I also wonder if that's just a little sister wanting to emulate her big sister and be part of the same things and be accepted in this family in the same way and be close with our friend here. I mean, we all want to belong. That's a universal human thing, and maybe the whole I'm so Brazilian thing.

Is more about that belonging than it is about attention seeking. I just want to make some room for that possibility.

Jordan Harbinger: That's a fair point. I really do get why this rubs her the wrong way, but when she talks to her sister, I think she also runs the risk of gatekeeping being Brazilian. Like I'm the only one who can be Brazilian because I was actually born there and I'm a hundred percent Brazilian and you're just half, and I'm not sure that's entirely fair either.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's a good point because if we were hearing from her little sister and her sister were like, my older sister is a hundred percent Brazilian and I'm half and she doesn't like it. When I talk about my Brazilian culture, I feel like we might say, first of all, okay, does your sister have a point? A little bit, but also who is your sister to tell you how you get to [00:41:00] talk about your heritage and why does your sister's opinion matter to you so much?

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. The challenge for both of them is to move between these two perspectives to see what they have to learn.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So maybe we need to ask the question, why does this bother her so much? Again, I understand that it's cringe. I think we can all agree, and I also get why watching a family member perform something that's very close to your heart is annoying.

What is it specifically that triggers her so much about her sister doing this? What is it about her sister doing this that pushes her buttons besides the fact that it's her sister only? You can really know that, but it might be worth articulating for yourself so you can start to figure out how much of this is your sister's fault.

And how much of this is your reaction?

Jordan Harbinger: I'm glad we got here because I think this is probably more complicated than just my sister's so annoying. But then to be fair, this might be the 90th, annoying thing her sister's done in their lives, and it's just getting worse, which I also get. Anyway, I hope that gives you some new approaches.

And if your sister needs any Brazilian bracelets for her live stream, just email Gabe. I'm sure he'd be happy to rent them out for a small fee,

Gabriel Mizrahi: a [00:42:00] couple of vegan MoCAs is my usual price, so. There's

Jordan Harbinger: that. That seems fair. Something with Kuya in it. Perhaps you guys will work something out. Good luck by the way.

You can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Keep your emails concise. Try to use a descriptive subject line that makes our job a whole lot easier. If your husband won't stop hanging out with an old rebound, your company, cut off your fertility benefits mid cycle and your spiraling or your sibling wrote into Feedback Friday with a wildly different version of events from what actually happened to you and you want to fill in the blanks.

I've been thinking about that letter all week since we took it. Hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. All right. You know, it's definitely cringe shameless podcast ads, but it is our culture. We'll be right back.

This episode is also sponsored in part by BetterHelp. I'm around high level performers all the time. People who've built massive companies, launched huge platforms, sold businesses for millions, and created things that changed their industries. I'll catch myself comparing, why isn't my show as big as Joe [00:43:00] Rogan or whatever?

Why didn't I build some multimillion dollar podcast software company on the side? That kind of financial and career stress can sneak up on you. The comparison, the pressure, feeling like your worth is somehow tied to the scoreboard. That stuff can affect your mood, your sleep, and your relationships a lot more than you realize.

Therapy can help with that, not because it's giving you business advice, but because it can help you manage the anxiety, the stress, and the shame that can come with constantly measuring yourself. Against frankly impossible standards. BetterHelp matches you with a licensed therapist based on a short questionnaire, and if it's not the right fit, you can switch anytime.

They have over 30,000 therapists. They've served more than 6 million people worldwide and live. Session seven, an average of 4.9 out of five rating based on over 1.7 million Client reviews when life feels overwhelming. Therapy can help. Sign up and get 10% off at  betterhelp.com/jordan. That's betterhelp.com/jordan. This episode is brought to you in part by Lufthansa. When people talk about travel, they usually focus on the destination, the hotel, the restaurants, all the stuff that happens after you land. But the flight is part of the experience too. Just like a great [00:44:00] hotel can shape an entire trip, so can a great flight.

That's exactly what Lufthansa Allegris is built around. On a long haul route, comfort matters more than people realize. If you're cramped, tired, and can't relax, you feel it the second you land. But when a flight is comfortable, you can actually stretch out, rest, work, or just enjoy the ride. It changes the whole trip.

I was thinking about that on my recent Intercontinental Lufthansa flight. I got so comfortable. I honestly didn't want the flight to end, which is not something you say very often after a long international trip. That's why Lufthansa Allegris stands out. It's built around the idea that people travel differently.

Lufthansa Allegris' business class has five seat options. You've got the suite, the privacy seat, and the extra long bed, the extra space seat, and the classic seat. So you can choose what works for you. And that's what I like most. It feels elevated, but still practical. More privacy, more comfort, more thoughtful design for the way people actually travel now.

Visit lufthansa.com and search for Allegris to learn more. Lufthansa Allegris. All it takes is a yes. Limited availability on select routes. More routes coming soon. By the way, if you haven't signed up yet, come check out our newsletter Wee Bit Wiser. It's a bite-sized gem from a past episode from us to you [00:45:00] delivered right to your inbox on most Wednesdays.

If you want to keep up with the wisdom from our shows and apply it to your life, I invite you to come check it out. You can sign up at jordanharbinger.com/news. All right, next up.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hello, Jordan and Gabe. My 8-year-old son has always been incredibly smart. He started reading phonetic words at age two and has a brilliant mind for math.

But when he was six and in first grade, we had a lot of struggles with school. Unlike kindergarten grade one meant sitting at a desk and listening to a teacher while remaining still and quiet. My son did not do well in this environment. As a 6-year-old who could read better than most grade fives, he took no interest in sitting and learning that t and h together make the th sound.

Needless to say he was disruptive to the general class and at times would let his frustration out by flipping a table literally, or just getting up and walking out of class. His teacher was not happy with him and refused to believe my husband and me [00:46:00] when we said that he was gifted, he wouldn't complete work because coloring in the square with his favorite color was not an engaging task for him.

Jordan Harbinger: No doubt. You know what's funny? I had a similar, had a similar problem. I didn't flip tables, but I exhibited very similar behaviors. My mom would tell the teachers I was gifted and they were like, whatever, your son's a knucklehead, he can't even pay attention. And then later I got into the gifted program in schools and the teachers were like, oh, why didn't he apply earlier?

And my mom wanted to just murder all of them. So yeah, I relate to your son. He must have been going out of his mind.

Gabriel Mizrahi: This is like asking John Nash to do arithmetic. Carry the one Johnny

Jordan Harbinger: literally, Hey baby Einstein focus. We're learning the abacus, and he is like, All right, I'm doing long division over here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: One time there was a project where the class was reading a story about moles and mittens, and they were encouraged to draw the last page of the story for how they thought it should end. My son wrote with perfect spelling, this story is stupid on his page.

Jordan Harbinger: I mean, that is funny, whatever.

Gabriel Mizrahi: This made me laugh and made his teachers infuriated to him.

[00:47:00] The exercise was unintelligent, so he wasn't wrong. There were also times where the classroom had to be evacuated because of his impulsive behavior. He even had to be restrained by adult special aid workers on one occasion because he was trying to leave the school. I received almost daily calls about things he had done or ways that he was not falling in line.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. Well yeah, that must have been hard for you guys. Wow.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So we had him evaluated by a psychologist and he tested in the 98th percentile for reading comprehension and the 99th percentile for math.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Okay. So this happened to me as well, except I believe I was 98 in math and 99 for reading. And the teachers were confused 'cause I was the kid who didn't pay attention at all.

And it's like, how does he know how to do all this? Are you sure? He took the test and with everyone else. I remember this whole kerfuffle, like, how did he do that? It was called the CAT Test. I'm from Michigan, but it was the California Achievement Test. Probably the same thing you took.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So interesting.

Jordan Harbinger: We took this thing, it was probably one of the only standardized tests, so my Michigan school [00:48:00] district bought it and we took it and I remember being like, this is stupid and really easy and finished early.

And since I finished early they assumed, oh he's going to bomb this test. I just told my mom it was really easy. And then when I scored in the 99th percentile overall they were like, what happened? We don't understand this. That's how I ended up going into the gifted and talented program at school. 'cause it turned out like, oh he's just really bored in your class.

He is not a dumb kid. He's fricking bored out of his mind. That didn't last too long. 'cause you know, other kids catch up.

Gabriel Mizrahi: When I hear stories like you and this kid. It just makes me wonder what would happen to so many kids if teachers took a genuine interest in the unique abilities of each child. Or like tried to get curious about why it's so hard for certain ones to focus instead of just kinda like dismissing a kid like this for just can't focus, can't do it, is not respectful.

There's something going on. It turns out that he is really talented. It's a shame.

Jordan Harbinger: There was a kid who was a quote unquote bad kid when I was in pre-kindergarten, and he grew up to be a famous [00:49:00] artist. 'cause he was just super ridiculously creative and talented. But he didn't want to sit there and do whatever.

They were like, oh, he's bad. He's a bad kid. Crazy.

Gabriel Mizrahi: What was that guy's name? Who had that really amazing to Sir Ken Robinson.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Such a good, tough indeed. Talk about kids' unique talents. Okay, so a lot of goes on. He also just barely met the threshold for an ADHD diagnosis with impulsive behavior tendencies.

Now that we had the formal diagnosis, the school had to take him and us seriously. We also labeled his behavior as big emotions and attempted to separate them from him as a person. I never wanted him to think that he was bad. He just didn't have the skills to properly navigate real world situations.

Fast forward to grade two. I am a nervous wreck. He ends up having an incredible connection with his teacher, and he has an absolutely amazing year. During that year, we registered him for something called Forest School, an independent outdoor school that gives children the chance to spend six hours out in nature one day a week [00:50:00] instead of traditional school.

It's a way to reset his attention, get some curiosity and energy out, and have some rare freedom.

Jordan Harbinger: Cool. That is, that's a good idea.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So cool. One day I picked my son up from forced school and the teacher informed me that another student sucker punched him in the stomach for no apparent reason. I gave him hugs and love and we got back to the car to talk about it.

He was really quiet as we drove, and I said, do you have any pain buddy? He sniffled and replied, no, mom. I just didn't want to be involved in any bad behavior this year. Those words were such a gut punch. He clearly internalized a lot from the previous year and associated being the victim with bad behavior.

My son is now in grade three and positively thriving. He hardly has any big outbursts, has the most incredible empathetic outlook on life, and will ask you the most in-depth questions and be genuinely interested in the answers. He continues to be exceptionally gifted in math and reading, and socially he's calmed down significantly.

Jordan Harbinger: No more table flipping. Yeah, he sounds like a [00:51:00] remarkable kid. Gabe. It's amazing to me that he barely passed the threshold for ADHD, and it's like, oh, where we had to evacuate the entire classroom because he was throwing furniture. It's, where is the threshold for this?

Gabriel Mizrahi: What more does it take

Jordan Harbinger: seriously?

Come on, man.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Then a few weeks ago, he was sitting alone at one end of the classroom and doing an independent activity during free time. A boy from a group he avoids, walks over to my son and whispers in his ear, I'm going to kill you. These are eight year olds. Needless to say, my son was upset and immediately told the teacher.

We dealt with it with the administration and ultimately my son forgave the boy and accepted his apology. Two weeks after that, the teacher from Forest School pulls me aside to say he had an altercation with another young boy. My son was going into the shed to get supplies and this other boy closed the door and locked him in intentionally.

My son managed to get the door open from inside and was pretty upset. This boy came back and intended to lock him in again, but my son put his foot in the [00:52:00] door to stop him from closing it. The other boy proceeded to kick my son in the shin, so he would fall and then closed and lock the door again. Once again, my son managed to get his way out and told the teacher.

The issue was addressed and the boy wrote my son an apology letter. My son corrected all of the spelling mistakes and handed it back to the boy and told him he forgives him

Jordan Harbinger: savage. Dude. Oh my God. I love that. I accept your apology, your poorly written apology. Here you go, Clyde. Here's my red line. Copy.

Hit the books pal. Maybe you'll learn something. Oh my God, dude, wow. That's a super sad story and my heart breaks for your son that he's being bullied so much, but man, that is such a nerd power move, man. I love it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I've spoken at length with my son about both of these traumatic events and he seems completely at peace with things, but my heart keeps going back to the little boy crying in the car.

How do I help my son navigate these things? Do you think this is weighing on him and impacting his growth [00:53:00] and development? Signed a mama bear trying to prepare to learn best how to care for her son and despair.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh man, this is such a fascinating story. It's such a fascinating child to have. I'm thinking about everything you've shared.

I want to take a moment to appreciate, to really appreciate just how challenging it is to have a child with any kind of special need, a gifted child, any child really who doesn't conform to quote unquote normal, whatever that means in this world, not normal. It's increasingly a virtue. But I digress. When I hear stories like this, I realize how little most parents probably understand about the unique demands on families like this.

And that said, part of me does wonder just how traumatizing this kind of thing is for a boy. I hate that he's being bullied. It makes me sad, but there's a part of me that maybe just internalized too much eighties nonsense, but there's a part of me that's like, ah, this is just boy shit.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Boy shit.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, boy shit.

I went through it. A lot of us went through it. It wasn't this bad, but I said mean stuff to other kids when I was young, other kids said mean stuff to [00:54:00] me. People punched me and punched them. I'm still in touch with a bunch of them. We're all okay. It doesn't always do like lifelong damage.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Interesting. So you're like wondering, are boys more resilient to bullying than girls?

Maybe. I'm not sure.

Jordan Harbinger: I don't know about bullying in general, but like physical stuff, boy Scouts, we used to just knock the crap out of each other and then it was just fine after that. I don't know, it was like the military or something.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I kind of take your point. There were like two kids growing up, one in fourth grade and one I want to say in sixth grade, and they were both a grade or two above me who kind of roughed me up a few times at school.

And I remember it being. Fairly upsetting actually, now that I think about it. Both of them. This is pretty sad, but both of them were being abused at home. It came out later, so it was sad all around. Probably sadder for them, but I'm okay now. I guess I, I can't say this stuff left a huge mark, so maybe you have a point.

It's just, boy shit. On the other hand, I think it really depends on the type of bullying and the sources of the bullying and the how often it's happening and you know [00:55:00] how being hurt by other kids affects your unique personality. I mean, I know people who are like severely wounded by how they were treated by the other kids at school, even as adults.

It's kind of embarrassing to acknowledge, but it's real. So I don't know. Yeah, it might be boy shit in the sense that boys do this stuff and don't think about how it lands, but that doesn't mean it isn't having an effect, especially for a kid who is pretty different.

Jordan Harbinger: Fair enough. I'm not trying to minimize what this kid might be going through.

And like I said, I wish it weren't happening. Of course. I just wonder if boys are more resilient than their moms give them credit for. And you mentioned that the kids have bullied you or abused at home. I got this random Facebook message, this is 10 years ago now or something, but I was in my thirties. I got this random Facebook message.

It was from like Mark R and I was like, ah, hi guy who doesn't put his full name on Facebook, what's going on in his profile photo? He looked tired, sad, and he had face tats. And I was like, I do not obviously recognize this guy. And he goes, we went to school together. And I was like, [00:56:00] holy crap. Mark Robbins.

He was a kid in my neighborhood. He was a bully. And I was like, how are you? And he's like, I just got out of prison for DUI, felony, DUI. And I was like, oh. And he was trying to talk to me and I was just like, dude, I'm shocked you're trying to talk to me because you terrorized half the school. And it wasn't horrible.

But he was not a nice person. And I was like, thank God, what happened to this guy? And then my Facebook messenger thing for him was almost like a trauma dump of all this stuff that had happened to him when we were growing up. I don't understand why he chose me, but he was just talking to anybody who would listen maybe.

And he was just writing, I'm sorry about this and that. I'm like, here's what's going on. Yeah. As you might imagine, he had a terrible childhood. Meanwhile, I thought he was spoiled 'cause he had a go-kart and stuff like that. And he was always zipping around the neighborhood. It was like, no, that's not how it worked out at all, was a different way to look at things.

So yeah, it was just not what I expected at all. And of course that probably happens a lot when you're an adult. [00:57:00]

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm trying to make room for both of these ideas that maybe a boy doesn't end up super damaged by this stuff. Maybe it is just kind of part of childhood, and if this kid and the story is not exhibiting huge signs of trauma, maybe he's okay.

Maybe he is resilient. But I also think that a lot of boys, including this guy who reached out to you years later, probably are taught that they're not allowed to be sensitive. They're not allowed to speak up when they're hurt. That can do a number on you.

Jordan Harbinger: That's true. I guess as a man, I'm maybe still catching up to that.

I don't know.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I am too. In fact, wow, this is such a weird memory. One of those kids I just mentioned one day we were in theater class, we were in the auditorium. He took a metal leg from a chair. I guess the metal leg was like loose and he like broke it off of the chair and for no reason, like out of nowhere he just hit me with the chair leg incredibly hard in the leg.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. That's like Tanya Harding shit right there. Why would you do that to someone?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, he, Tanya Harding me in mime class in seventh grade at Emanuel. And so hard that I [00:58:00] was almost stunned because, because I'd never been hit like that before. I was like, what a weird sensation. And it was pretty upsetting.

And I was finally like, dude, he did it a few times. I was like, that's enough. Like he had been messing with me for weeks before that. And so I went to tell someone, a teacher I guess, and I walked across the school to find somebody to tell, this is so vivid and sad, and I'm sorry, I'm like bringing the house down with this, but I was trying not to cry while I walked.

And I remember feeling like the most painful part was not the physical pain. It was the embarrassment.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, the embarrassment about being attacked, you mean?

Gabriel Mizrahi: At being emotional 'cause I was attacked. The physical pain was not that bad. It was just like, oh my God, I'm embarrassed that I'm even like worked up to this degree.

Just to be holding back tears after some psycho kid who's like being yelled at or hit at home hit me because I was a boy and boys are not supposed to emote like that.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I hear that. This is funny. This is a trauma dump from you and I about how we went through some of this as a good.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Perfect. Let's do it.

Jordan Harbinger: I remember we had this thing called [00:59:00] latchkey, which was like daycare before and after school. And so there was a meeting. All the bullies were in that, and I was also in that. And there was a bunch of other kids there too. So there was this circle of the teachers and aides going, All right, mark and Jay are bullying all these kids.

They used to rhyme things with my last name, which is actually quite challenging. So props to them for doing that successfully. And then they would also, they had like rhymes and stuff, but they weren't that bad. They were just dumb and silly. And it didn't bother me that much, but it did suck a little bit to know that somebody was like, looking at you and making fun of you.

And I remember the teachers would say things like. Is it okay? Or is it teasing in a way that you don't like? And I felt immense pressure to be like, it's totally fine. It really was. But there was another kid, my friend Andy, he was getting bullied mercilessly. And of course right after I was like, ah, it's mostly fine.

I didn't want to get them in trouble. I thought that would go hard on me. And also it didn't bother me that much. They were like, Andy, what about you? And I was like, now is your chance to get these kids some comeuppance and maybe [01:00:00] they'll actually stop. And he was like, no, it's totally fine. And I was like, no, what are you doing?

He basically let it go. 'cause he was like, I don't want to look uncool like they got to me. You know? It was just clearly what he was doing. And I felt so bad for him. 'cause I remember he would cry all the time and he would go and tell his mom, and the mom would tell the teachers. And it's like, why are you asking him in front of everyone if they're under his skin?

Like he's going to say, oh yeah, they're terrorizing me. And I'm afraid every moment of the day. Come on dude. Now that we've talked about all this, I'm sitting here trying to figure out do I just have thicker skin or am I completely in denial about how hurtful all of this actually was? I honestly don't know the answer.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I know it's

Jordan Harbinger: tricky. I have a feeling there's a certain range of hurtful behavior that's survivable. 'cause kids can be super brutal. We all need to learn how to recover from it. Everyone gets mistreated to some degree. But I also know that I didn't have it as bad as other kids. And it's also got me really questioning like, oh, it was kind of mean to Richard Rowe.

I wonder if, does he remember that? Is he like, Jordan Harbinger terrorized me as a kid and I'm [01:01:00] just like, ah, I used to poke fun at that guy. Am I the bully? Is that the problem here? I would be heartbroken. I would be shattered if somebody told me that was me. That's why I didn't notice it. 'cause I was the perpetrator, not the victim.

Gabriel Mizrahi: This would be the huge turn.

Jordan Harbinger: So I guess I can't necessarily assume that this bullying isn't having a real impact on her son, but I think it might be good for her to make room for the idea that he's more resilient than she might think

Gabriel Mizrahi: also at his age. I have a feeling that his resilience might depend in part on her confidence in him to get through this.

Jordan Harbinger: If she believes he's resilient, he'll be resilient.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Kind of another way to put it is if she overly worries about him and constantly attends to his injuries, especially if they're not as severe as she thinks, that might accidentally communicate to him that there is something wrong or it might make things worse.

So that it's an interesting balance there.

Jordan Harbinger: It is, but also you don't want to ignore them and then you're just like ignoring your kids' emotional needs. A lot of dads did that growing up. A lot of dads would be like, oh yeah, my son was getting bullied so bad. But it's like they just ignore [01:02:00] it because they're like, uh, then I don't want to highlight that.

This is terrible. And it's, I don't know. Your son got pushed down a flight of stairs. He had to go to the hospital.

Gabriel Mizrahi: These stories are getting worse and worse. I'm so

Jordan Harbinger: sad. Oh, we had, dude, we had serious, you know what, maybe the reason I'm not remembering all this bad stuff happening to me is that the kids who got bullied, it was like criminal behavior.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh man.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: We didn't have that in my school. I think you might have gone to a different school,

Jordan Harbinger: do you think?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Or maybe it was like eighties.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. There was a rich kid who beat up a kid that didn't have any money and had a single mom. He beat his ass so bad he had to go to the hospital and it was not his first time doing that.

And this was like a wealthy. Kid, and it was just like he beat up like one kid who had a single mom and the, the dad had died. It was just horrific. Like, what? You pick that guy?

Gabriel Mizrahi: My dude, I can't handle any more of

these

Jordan Harbinger: stories. No, my school was, clearly, my school was a war zone and I just didn't realize it at, at all.

I don't know, man. Derby middle school. [01:03:00] Dang. Ring a flack jacket. All right. Anyway, so yes, I'm sure this bullying is having some impact on your son's development. I don't see how it couldn't, but what kind of impact, how much of an impact, how he experiences it, how he carries that forward in his life.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, those are all kind of open questions.

I think

Jordan Harbinger: Gabe, the picture I'm getting of her son is that his really interesting mix of qualities. He's obviously extremely bright, he's also sensitive and empathetic. He's calmed down and become more respectful, but he's also a little bit of a rebel in kind of a cool way. He doesn't exactly play by the rules.

He's not afraid to stick it to people when they deserve it, like with the spelling thing, which I, I still think is funny. So there's a world where that mix of qualities creates a certain toughness that's going to serve her son very well in life. I'm not saying the bullying won't hurt at all, but his way of coping with it, hitting back in the appropriate ways.

I do think that's going to play a big role in just how much these experiences affect him. But he will experience some pain that is just unavoidable. And [01:04:00] so as difficult as it is, you do have to make peace with the fact that you're awesome kid, partly because of his awesome. He's going to be impacted sometimes, and you gotta trust that he's going to work through that with you, with other people in his own way over the course of his life.

But yeah, of course you can help your son navigate all this. The most important thing, I think, is to be a consistent, loving, non-judgmental presence in his life, which you're already doing. And ask him again, not constantly, 'cause that can create its own neurosis, but regularly ask him how he's doing, how his day was, what's on his mind.

Listen to what he says, validate him. Ask him good questions, listen more. Help him find his way to new feelings, new answers. Basically be with him in whatever experience he's having. If he wants you to be in it with him, of course. And if he doesn't, you can back off. Give him some space to our point a moment ago.

I think that's crucial too.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I totally agree. Obviously it's really powerful when a parent is super attuned to their child, but there's also a kind of parent who can be so [01:05:00] involved with their children, so concerned with taking care of them that. It can easily tip over into something kind of smothering and invasive.

And I think that can deprive a child of healthy solitude of space to work things out on their own and learn to bear their feelings on their own, and discover that they can be okay without constant intervention. And that can end up undermining that resilience that we were just talking about because that resilience requires a sense of self.

That self develops in part through relationship with good parents and in part through independence. So again, a balance.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, 100%. There's a balance there. I'm also just thinking about the fact that your son is a target in large part, again, because he's different and you can't change that. You don't want to change that.

But one day I think it's going to be very soon, all these gifts are really going to start to pay off. He's going to enter athlete competitions or start building robots or writing poetry or whatever. He's going to be on such an exciting path. His intelligence, his sense of humor, his eccentricity is. They're making him weird now, but [01:06:00] weird is the precursor to awesome.

That's just how it works. So two thoughts here. One is the sooner you cultivate those qualities and make them assets the better. Get him into gifted programs, clubs, summer camps, hobbies, places that will put him in touch with other kids like him and that are going to nurture his talents. You don't have to wait till he is in high school to start taking all that seriously.

The other thing is the sooner he understands these unique gifts, the less the bullying will hurt. And that's my hope because at least then he'll be like, oh yeah, I'm really good at this stuff, and they aren't, and that makes them angry. Or I don't really click with these kids at school, but I have my friends at robotics club.

They get me. That's just part of the resilience as well. I'm sorry your son is going through all this, but he's very lucky to have you looking out for him. You're obviously doing a lot right here. Given how much he's grown in just a few years, it's awesome to hear. Keep up the good work sending you and your son a big hug.

Also, in case y'all don't know, there's a subreddit for the show. If you want to discuss episodes or things that you hear on the show, it's over on Reddit on the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. [01:07:00] You deserve to be locked in a shed if you don't take advantage of the amazing deals and discounts on the products and services that support this show.

We'll be right back.

If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do that is take a moment, support the amazing sponsors. All of the deals and discounts are on the website at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. If a code's not working, you can't find the code, you're not sure if it exists, email usJordan@jordanharbinger.com.

We're happy to dig up codes for you. It's that important that you support those who support the show. And now for the rest of feedback, Friday. All right, time for the recommendation of the week.

Lip Filla Clip: I am addicted to it, fella.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So almost two years ago now, I went to Burning Man for the first time. For the only time really.

And one of the things that I bought for the trip was this camping towel. You know, one of those ultra light towels that absorb a ton of water and then you can leave them hanging outside and they'll dry in 20 [01:08:00] or 30 minutes. So I did a bunch of research and I found this brand called Efy that I love.

These towels are amazing. They have a bunch of awesome patterns. I bought the one called Madagascar. I also love the Acapulco. The Marrakesh. They're all really pretty. They're all super cool. I also love that they're incredibly thin, like they hardly take up any room in your bag. You can throw them in your trunk, you can take them on the go.

You can use them as a towel. You can use them as a blanket. You can just use them as something to sit on when you're outside. And they also have a line of beach towels, eco-friendly towels, kid towels of beach blankets. It's a really great product line, and this towel that I love is only like $35. Very reasonable.

I bought this thing thinking, oh yeah, I'll just use it at Burning Man for 10 days and then whatever. I'll give it away. It's become a staple for me. I've been using it every single day here in Brazil. It's amazing for traveling. It's totally saved my life. Huge fan of this product. EFI Beach Towels. We'll link to them in the shout notes.

Jordan Harbinger: All right, next up.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Bert and Ernie.

Jordan Harbinger: Ooh, [01:09:00] getting out of hand. Jen's going to start getting pissed.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Your wife or the closeted one from

Jordan Harbinger: cluster one. Oh man, she was your sh,

Gabriel Mizrahi: which Jen

Jordan Harbinger: Treading on thin ice to mix metaphors. All right, continue.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm 30 years old, female, and overall healthy. I exercise, eat mostly a plant-based diet and work in a career that I love.

As a freelance artist, I'm happily married to a loving and supportive husband and have a beautiful little home. All of my basic needs are met, and for that I am very lucky.

Jordan Harbinger: Amazing. What a gift.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Despite all of this, ever since I can remember I've struggled with my mental wellbeing, I can become very easily stressed out over trivial things.

I can be snappy and irritable in the moment to those who may not deserve it, and I often find myself sitting in resentment and anger. A lot of this is around the fact that I help care for very grumpy grandparents and dealing with a mother who doesn't often respect boundaries. By my own admission, I am not great at drawing or [01:10:00] enforcing these boundaries.

Jordan Harbinger: Interesting. I am sorry to hear all of this, but it sounds very understandable. These are major stressors.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I also struggle with feelings of despair and anxiety about losing people. I love. I'll often imagine something horrible happening to my husband or sister and then worry about how I could ever deal with the outcome, or if I could live on, I've also held off on having children because I'm so overcome with fear of something bad happening to them.

Jordan Harbinger: Also, very understandable and super common. It's interesting, Jen brings this up a lot. Like when we travel, she'll talk about us going on different planes in case something happens, or she'll talk about what it would be like if I died and how hard it would be. And I think we all have probably some serious anxiety about death.

But yeah, some more than others.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm not sure where these feelings come from, but it's probably related to the fact that in high school, my boyfriend attempted suicide. Thankfully he survived, but it was a very close call. I am no longer with this person, but I still remember the emotional rollercoaster.

I'm [01:11:00] not sure if that's what caused this fear of death, but it could have something to do with it.

Jordan Harbinger: Very intense. Wow. I'm sorry.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I've been talking with a therapist regularly for a little over six months now. She diagnosed me with mild to moderate anxiety and depression. She has suggested pursuing medications in order to feel a little lighter and to quiet my mind, but I have many hesitations about pursuing medication.

For one thing, I struggle with body image issues and cannot afford the weight gain that often comes with these medications. Gaining weight would not be good for my mental wellbeing for another. Many of these medications can lower your libido. I already struggle with a lower libido, which can sometimes cause tension in my marriage.

We've been working on this together and have been making progress, and I would hate for a medication to negatively affect that. I'm also a full-time artist and painter, and I worry about these medications numbing me or hindering my creativity, and I've read about possible cognitive [01:12:00] decline associated with long-term use of SSRIs.

Huh.

Jordan Harbinger: I never heard of that. Have you, Gabe?

Gabriel Mizrahi: I had not. I looked into it briefly and I'm far from an expert, but basically it seems like the evidence for that is mixed and not conclusive.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. So it could totally not even be a thing.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Could not be a thing, could be a thing for some people maybe. I truly don't know, but I had never heard of it and there's no consensus online about this, so she goes on.

Lastly, I find myself wondering if I really do have anxiety or depression or if I'm just not doing enough for myself in order to feel my best. I do exercise and eat well, but there's probably more that I could push myself to do. That would help. For example, meditation, drinking less alcohol. I drink socially on the weekends, CBT therapy, less screen time, and so on.

What are your thoughts on medication for anxiety and depression? Do you think doctors can be too quick to prescribe these medications before exploring other options? Signed writing you a letter to see if you guys are [01:13:00] objectors to solving all this through receptors.

Jordan Harbinger: Really good questions, Gabe. I'm a little sweaty answer in this one.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I am too. But I thought it was a really interesting question that like so many people wonder about, so I kind of wanted to get into it.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. We're just not in a position to tell someone whether they should take medication or not. That is very personal and it's medical advice. Something only a mental health professional can really weigh in on with their patient.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Of course. I agree. Maybe we can just like. Talk about a few different angles on her story and let her decide for herself.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that sounds good to me. First of all, I'm very sorry that you've struggled with anxiety, depression, anger, the fear of losing people tells you back from certain experiences you might want, like having kids.

This is extremely intense stuff and so universal. It is not crazy to struggle with any of it, especially in today's world. Honestly, I don't know, a single person, not one who doesn't experience anxiety or depression or anger to some degree at some point in their [01:14:00] life. These moods, these responses, they're part of being human and we all need to find our own relationship with them.

But okay, before we get into that, my very broad thought about medication for anxiety and depression is, medication is a remarkable tool. It's imperfect, clearly, but it's powerful. And obviously they're game changers for a lot of people. And if somebody needs help, I think it's brilliant that we have these tools.

I'm generally very proud of people for being open to taking it when they need it, especially if they have a severe mood disorder or a psychiatric condition that seriously impairs their life. So like no philosophical objections to medication per se on my end. However, I don't think it's controversial to say that doctors, especially in America, probably in the west very generally, they obviously prescribe this stuff.

Very easily, some might say way too easily and definitely without exploring other options, although I think that's changing with new treatments. There's TMS, ketamine and stuff like that, which is really exciting. But like, is your psychiatrist really going [01:15:00] to spend three hours talking to you about your family, your job?

What's your outlook on the world is,

Gabriel Mizrahi: right? Is your PB going to be like, so tell me about your childhood and before they write you a script for Zoloft. Yeah, probably not.

Jordan Harbinger: I just haven't heard of any prescriber who says, exercise for 30 minutes four times a week. Leave your toxic job, get off your damn phone.

Make plans with friends every Sunday. Come back in 90 days and we'll see if you still need medication. They're not trained to, it's not their job to do that. They're too overwhelmed with patients to do that. So they see you for a few minutes, they ask you a few questions, mostly related to symptoms and they just, they write you a script and that's it.

And don't get me wrong, there are great psychiatrists out there. Of course, I believe many take a real interest in their patients. But generally speaking, in the system we have here. Even the good ones, they're usually not treating you as a whole. They're treating symptoms and that means they're mostly writing scripts and Yeah, it's usually pretty quick.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, and these medications, as powerful as they are at the end of the day, there's just a tool as far [01:16:00] as I understand. All the research shows that the true efficacy of medication depends on. The combination of medication and talk therapy. So to just take the meds, yeah, it can be very helpful to a degree, and it is for so many people, but they're not a silver bullet.

It's more like what do they make possible? How do you build on that?

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. So let's talk about you. It sounds to me like you're doing a lot, right? Not only do you have this very full and beautiful life, you're grateful for that life, and that's amazing. That alone is a huge advantage in terms of mood. It also sounds like there are a few things you could be doing to take even better care of yourself.

Meditation, drinking, less therapy, less screen time, all of which can have usually do have a major impact on everything. Kind of everything, right? Everything. So my feeling is I say this humbly, I'm really not giving you any kind of medical advice. My feeling is why not do those things first and then see how you feel?

Not because medication is bad or wrong, but because it is a big step and it's [01:17:00] one tool out of many. And like you said, it can come with side effects and these meds can be hard to get off of and you might or might not find the results you're hoping for in the first place. So before I took that step, I just want to make sure that I really needed that stuff.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Last week we got a question from a guy who was asking about whether it makes sense to be in therapy long term. And I said this thing about whether therapy, mental healthcare in general actually, whether it's about symptom reduction or whether it's about something else, or it could be about more than that, I should say.

And I think that idea might also be useful here because what I'm hearing from this letter is that she is mildly to moderately depressed and anxious. She gets very easily stressed. That makes her irritable, makes her short tempered. She carries some anger around and there are a few very clear sources of this anger and stress.

She has a grumpy grandparent she has to take care of. She has this challenging mom with whom she struggles to draw boundaries. And then there's this despair and anxiety about losing people. How would I survive that? How would I continue? Which is not just a question of mood or attitude. That [01:18:00] is an existential question.

And it's also one that's probably informed by your entire life history. How can you be alive on this earth and not struggle with that question? We're talking about such big stuff we're talking about like love and loss and grief and just how insane it is to be a human being who is going to experience in this life.

Great joy and great sorrow. So I'm going to repeat what Jordan just said, just to be very clear and respectful of your process. My friend. I'm not a psychiatrist, I'm not a doctor. I'm no expert. I'm definitely not here to tell you what to do. I'm just a fellow person who's also wondered at various points whether medication was for me.

I've told you guys I think a little bit over the years about periods of depression I've been through, which were really hard and I would just really take some time if you can manage it and talk about these themes. Ideally with a therapist, yes, but also with people you're close with. I would read about these topics and learn from experts who write about this stuff, and I can send you some res if you want, by the way, just email me.

Maybe [01:19:00] start to think of these experiences like depression and fear and anxiety and anger, not necessarily as symptoms to make go away, but as information about you and areas of your life that might be calling out for a little bit more attention from you. We could literally talk for hours about this. We only have a few minutes here, but for example, your anger, you could call it a quote unquote problem, right?

A problem that you need to quote, unquote get under control. But I think a more helpful way to think about it might be that it is a signal. You need to find a new way, for example, with your mom and your grandmother or yourself, or this anxiety about losing people. You could view that as a problem that you need to medicate, or you could treat it like an invitation to dive into this grief.

You feel this fear, why you feel it so far in advance and how you're living with that fear and just what the whole idea of mortality and frankly, the precarity of life, which is a fact. What all of that brings up for you again. I don't mean to belabor the point, but [01:20:00] we're all grappling with these big existential questions.

They're very intense, and the way you live them, not just live with them, but live them, is going to determine whether you are anxious or surrendered, whether you're gripped by fear or you use that fear to stay connected to gratitude. I'm just naming a few of these big experiences that are possible. So look, if you were writing into us and you were saying, I can't get out of bed in the morning, or I literally cannot leave my house and drive on the freeway because I'm so anxious, that would be a different story if this were like radically impairing your life and it wasn't even possible to talk about some of this stuff with a therapist because you couldn't even get to their office, or you couldn't go to the library to get a book or something like that.

Then that's a completely different situation and that's when medication can be extremely helpful and for many other situations. So I'm talking to you like this in part because of how you're doing these days. You're saying mild to moderate and you're still high functioning, but even still my invitation to you would be [01:21:00] how curious can you get about yourself and about this life?

Do you want to just like quiet your mind or do you want to understand your mind and do you want to find a way to not think about death ever? Or do you want to step into a friendlier relationship with death and see if maybe it enriches your life and leads to new possibilities? Obviously I feel that that's the more fruitful journey, but everybody is different.

But still, I do think it's worth trying.

Jordan Harbinger: But that's compatible with medication, right? It's not either or.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Absolutely compatible and if meds make it possible for her to do this, great. But this isn't just, you know, like a nice intellectual exercise before you go to the psychiatrist. I really believe I have found in my life.

That this deeper work does really help with symptoms. It's very possible that you will get better, but you might have to broaden your definition of getting better. At least be open to new possibilities, because so much of this is about your relationship with these feelings, your process around these feelings, and not just what are my [01:22:00] solutions and how do I get to these end states that feel better?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, well said, Gabe. I also think we all have a responsibility to ourselves to maintain a few basic practices. One of 'em is exercise. When I fall off my exercise routine, it is not pretty. Another one, of course, is sleeping. If you're not sleeping well, life can only be so good. Another one for me is learning and talking.

If you're keeping it all inside and nothing can get worked through, you're going to start to feel stuck. Another one, of course, again, for me, not drinking too much. We've talked about this before. It's a very personal choice too. For some people, it's totally fine. For others, not so much, but alcohol and mood and sleep for that matter, and exercise for that matter, it's just not a good combination.

And all of those things are mostly free, and some might even save you money if you stop buying booze. And a lot of it's fun, right? Working on exercise and sleep and stuff. And all of these are very much a part of this life. So I definitely want to do them before trying anything from the outside. I just realized we didn't even get to this side effect stuff.

All I can say about that is everybody who takes medication worries about [01:23:00] them. It sucks that side effects exist. Again, only you can decide if the trade-offs are worth it. Just keep in mind side effects aren't guaranteed. Everyone experiences this stuff differently, and different SSRIs have different side effects.

Unfortunately, there's no way to know until you try or just run an experiments on your own body, but you might not need to really think about this yet. I'd cross that bridge once you get there. And just to say again, because I really take our responsibility on this show seriously, and I never ever want to overstep our role.

If things get extremely difficult and you need more support, please feel free to look into medication. I hope we've made it abundantly clear. We are not anti, nor are we automatically probe. But most importantly, we are not medical experts. There are so many ways to take care of yourself in this world.

Every one of us needs something different, so just keep coming back to what's right for you. But while you do that, make sure you're putting in the work in yourself. In any event, I appreciate that you're being very intentional and thoughtful about this. I know that's going to lead you to the right places.

Good luck. And take good care of yourself. Don't [01:24:00] forget about our episode with Dr. Guillaume Dulude on living with tribes and our Skeptical Sunday last Sunday on homelessness. If you haven't done so yet, the best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network. The circle of people I know, like and trust.

Six Minute Networking. The course is free. It's not schmoozey. I wish I knew this stuff 20 years ago. Just takes a few minutes a day. Get after it. Dig that well before you get thirsty. Build relationships before you need them. You can find all that at sixminutenetworking.com. Show notes and transcripts on the website, advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show.

All at jordanharbinger.com/deals. I'm @JordanHarbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's on Instagram, Gabriel Mizrahi. This show is created an association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tadas Sidlauskas, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi.

Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but not your lawyer. Consult a qualified professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you [01:25:00] found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today.

In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.

Gabriel Mizrahi: One day, the encryption protecting your bank account, medical records, and private messages will simply stop working, not because of a hack, but because computers get smart enough to break it instantly.

The scary part that day is

Jordan Harbinger: already being planned for and your data may already be saved for later.

JHS Trailer: Quantum computers actually are a real step in evolution in the way that everybody knows about a binary state, zeros and ones on and off. Well, that was and is the technology for the classic computers.

Today. We've improved technologically much faster than we have been able to, as a society come up with ways to prevent the harm. Quantum computers can lead to what's called Q Day, or I prefer to call it digital disaster day D-Day two, because that's the day when all the digital [01:26:00] secrets that the normal computers can't crack through encryption are going to be cracked by quantum computers.

And that is really what gets people's attention. Combine that with AI and boy, we've really got a one two punch that can make humanity take these giant technological leaps that we had no idea could possibly happen. And that's one of the big fears is ai. That a lot of people are worried about now.

Quantum's coming around the corner, it makes it even twice as scary. It's a huge mixed bag of possibilities for everybody that are great and also danger, you know, Terminator level existential problems. All the doomsday preppers actually are onto something. If this does happen in the next few years, we're really going to be in big trouble.

That's why I am sort of an evangelist out there trying to speak on it and let people know this is a major problem. We can't just stick our head in the sand.

Jordan Harbinger: To hear from quantum expert John Young on what Q Day is, why it matters now, and what happens when our digital security hits its [01:27:00] expiration date, check out episode 1261 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.