392: Joaquin “Jack” Garcia | Undercover in the Mafia Part One

Transcript for Joaquin “Jack” Garcia | Undercover in the Mafia Part One (Episode 392)

Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Coming up on The Jordan Harbinger Show. 

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:00:02] If you're making money in the mob, money flows up. If you are somehow in the family, if you're on record with them as an associate, or even if you're a made guy, you have to kick money up. Money always flows up. Never does it float down.

[00:00:22] Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:22] Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people. If you're new to the show, we have in-depth conversations with people at the top of their game, astronauts and entrepreneurs, spies and psychologists, even the occasional billionaire investor. Each show turns our guest's wisdom into practical advice that you can use to build a deeper understanding of how the world works and become a better critical thinker.

[00:00:48] Today, Joaquin, aka Jack Garcia, former FBI agent who went undercover with the Italian mafia, namely the Gambino crime family. Jack was in so deep. He was almost a made man and had the trust of gangsters at some of the highest levels of the organization. In this episode, we'll learn how Jack managed to pose as a mobster, even though he was Cuban and not Italian, including some of the tells that the mafia uses to figure out who's legit and who's not. We'll also talk a lot about how the mafia works, who gets paid and how, mafia culture and rules, and how Jack took down dozens of gangsters during his time undercover.

[00:01:24] Jack credits a lot of his success undercover to his people skills and you'll pick up some of that in our free course Six-Minute Networking over at jordanharbinger.com/course. No upsells, no enter your credit card crap, just good learning and that's at jordanharbinger.com/course.

[00:01:39] Now, here's Jack Garcia on The Jordan Harbinger Show.

[00:01:45] Have you ever heard of "Sammy the Bull" Gravano? Does that name ring a bell?

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:01:49] Yes, I've heard of him, right. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:01:50] But you never met him or you did or you don't?

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:01:52] No. Sammy the Bull was actually in a — by then, he had cooperated with the government. See that was in the '80. I was, you know, in the 2000s. And he really was very influential and put a lot of bad guys away, including John Gotti.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:02:08] Yeah. I mean, that's what he mentioned. He's like, "Look, you know, I did my part and everybody else was like. 'Screw it.' So why was I going to go to jail? I have kids and a wife too," you know, like if that makes sense. 

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:02:19] Well, that's what they do, Jordan. I mean, I don't know if you're aware of it, but what happens now — the mob originally was a way of life. You know, these old-timers, they did it for a cause, they did it for a reason. They believed they died. They were pure Cosa Nostra. And then what happens when they get here kind of Americanized? They start changing their ways and start approaching it, not as a way of life but as a business, and they're making money. So what happens when a business is going under? They decided to bankrupt themselves or end it somehow. Well, that's how these mob guys are because they're afraid of what we, the law enforcement, can hit them with RICO, you know, sometimes 25, 30, 40 years. So they make a business decision and say, "Wait a minute, I'm going to cut my losses because in reality, if I play the true Cosa Nostra way and take it with me and go to jail. Who's going to take care of my family?"

Jordan Harbinger: [00:03:15] Right.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:03:16] Nobody is.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:03:17] Cosa Nostra is that name — is that Sicilian or Italian name of the mafia? 

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:03:21] Cosa Nostra is what mafia here in the US. It's mafia in Europe, in Italy. It's Cosa Nostra here. People sometimes use La Cosa Nostra but in reality, it's only Cosa Nostra. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:03:34] Okay. And it means — what does that mean? Our thing.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:03:36] It means our thing. That's correct. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:03:38] And when you say hit him with RICO. RICO is an organized crime, set of organized crime statutes that allow you to — well, why don't you explain that? I'm a lawyer. I should know this but I can't remember. It's been a long time.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:03:48] Well, you know, I'm a law enforcement officer. I've done so many RICO cases. The definition of RICO, I think, it's Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations. Now, what is it? It's an act that combines numerous offenses that an enterprise deals in and this is a way to get to the head of the enterprise. So for instance, if you're operating under the Gambino crime family, those who are the workers underneath them, any profits, any extortion, any criminal acts that fall within these — I think, its 26 violations could be used to dismantle, disturb, and destroy organized crime. So it's a very effective law enforcement tool and it carries with it tremendous time. I'm talking 25, 30, 40, and it's just not limited to, of course, organized crime. I mean, you could do with narcotics. There's any time that there is a group, an enterprise, where multiple people all working together for the commission of a crime.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:04:52] So this is the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations act. So the idea behind RICO, I guess, from 1970, which is when it came out was you wouldn't be able to get a lot of these guys with anything, because they'd say, "Look, I'm just keeping money in my basement. There's no crime against that. Oh, look, I have an illegal gun. All I get is a firearms charge." But with RICO, it's, "Look, we know that you're associated with these people and that this money is for drugs, which are used to then trade for arms, which this guy has." So now, everybody is in one under one charge or several charges that carry a stronger penalty, they can't just sort of divide things up. It's like when Tony Soprano says, "Hey, hold this gun for me in the basement, in the shoebox because it's just a light charge. I don't know where that came from." Under RICO, you can get everybody who's involved with something like that as long as you can prove their association. Right? 

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:05:42] Exactly. They have to be in this particular enterprise. So whether it's organized crime, the Latin Kings, MS-13, however you want to use it, as long as it's an enterprise. And that's the beauty of what's happened today, the power — thanks to RICO, we're now able to provide these charges that are really outstanding. And they kind of fear — the criminals fear more the government than the bad guys. And a lot of that helps them make their decision as to whether they're going to cooperate or not. Because with us, you know, you're looking at 25, 30 years, it outweighs what, you know, the mob, what are they going to do for me? So they are more fearful of us than they are retribution because of the RICO statute.

[00:06:27] I mean, think about it. Are you willing to do 25 years in prison? And knowing that here, you are devoted to this secret society and your family is going to be on welfare. Unless, of course, you're enterprising enough to save money, put it aside, have it, of course, concealed or given to other people or hold for you, so you're able to survive. But a lot of these guys don't think like that. A lot of these guys are instant gratification. They get money, they blow it. They buy a car, they buy a house, they buy a boat to buy this. And there's no reserve. And the mob nowadays, it's kind of like once they get locked up, they start making a decision and saying, "You know what, maybe I should cooperate." Years ago, very few guys cooperated. I'm talking about the Joe Valachi era. I'm talking about some of those back in the old days. But now, as they say, you've got to slap these guys just to shut them up because they're all talking. They're all wanting to make a deal. Because, "Hey, you know what, the guy who talked."

[00:07:28] Now, that, of course, has changed so much and a lot of guys don't want to make deals or cooperate, nor do they even want to plead guilty in prison. If you plead guilty, as you know, as an attorney, your charges are going to be less because you don't have to go through the process of going to a trial.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:07:47] Right.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:07:48] The problem with that is when it comes to sentencing is the allocution that they would have to make that they belong to this enterprise, that they are members of organized crime, that they are a member of a particular family, the Gambino crime family. They can't do that. And the reason for that, it's because, under the guys, it is a secret criminal society. So by you admitting it, you're admitting it that it exists. So these guys don't want to take that plea. However, later on — and I'm talking about during the Gigante who was the boss of the Genovese family and others, they decided to say, "You know what, let's take the plea. And the reason we're going to take the plea is because I could be out in five or 10 years. I can go back to making money. I can go back to helping my family. But what am I going to do in jail for 25, 30 years?" So a lot of that has kind of become more mainstream.

[00:08:50] Now, you had a hard-headed like John Gotti. John Gotti always said, "I've been accused of stealing at church and I had a steeple sticking up my ass. Hey, you know, as far as I'm concerned, I'm not guilty. I didn't do it." Because these guys don't want to go to court and admit the fact that they are a member of this organized crime because those guys are the true Cosa Nostra guys.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:09:10] Now you worked in 45 investigations which, honestly, that sounds like a hell of a lot. Is that a lot for an undercover? That seems like a lot.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:09:18] Well, actually, after the book we sat down, I've done — my career was 24 out of 26 years and was solely dedicated to working undercover. So I worked over a hundred major investigations. The other ones, which I did were buy-bust and drugs and quick turnaround cases. I'm not even counted in that group. So what I meant by working major investigations, I'm talking about those that have funding. Those that require you to work a case, as opposed to doing quick buys on the street, doing dope buys, guns, whatever you may do out there. So, you know, it was my little niche that I found, Jordan. I didn't go into the FBI to become — although my motivation was watching Serpico, you know, Al Pacino. Back in the days, long hair, beard, he's living in the village. He has a sheepdog, a girlfriend, a motorcycle. That's what, just like you said, "This is what I want to do." And then, of course, I changed from there. I went down to Quantico. I wanted to become a regular G-man, and then here I am in the FBI. I found my niche and the reason for that was because, in the FBI, we got involved in narcotics in the early '80s. And because I'm a native Spanish speaker, I was able to transition to working dope. And because I'm a guy from the Bronx — you know, when I got into the FBI in 1980, it didn't really mirror the demographics of our society.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:10:47] Yeah, I would imagine, yeah.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:10:48] Everybody looked like an agent if you know what I mean.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:10:50] Yeah.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:10:50] And here I come from the Bronx and "Hey, how are you doing?" You know, that kind of thing. And I started working on the cover and that just grew and grew. You know, in hindsight, I looked at that — I loved every minute of it but in hindsight, what I did was fit for the Bureau, but it wasn't good for Jack Garcia.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:11:07] Yeah.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:11:07] You know it was just a lot of stress. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:11:09] Well, we'll get to that in a bit. I think it's kind of interesting that they've got somebody that would — "Look a guy who's not a Protestant white guy from Connecticut. We got to put him back with the criminals. He's the only one who can pass." Like that in itself is a little bit like, all right. Well, it shows you kind of what they were thinking back at that time. When you're in the FBI, as you were, how do you even get tapped to work undercover? Were they literally just like, "Oh, look, a Latino, we got to put him back in the mix because none of us can pass.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:11:35] Well, you know what? That's a great one. Keep in mind that undercover work is an investigative technique. It's similar to doing a wiretap as doing whatever. What it is, is an option to infiltrate a group that maybe to the help of an informant who could walk you in or you do want to stone-cold, meaning you spending a lot of time and energy and money trying to build your bona fides with the bad guys. The reason why, I guess, I was picked is because I spoke Spanish. I didn't look like an agent. I didn't dress like an agent. I didn't comport like an agent. So that was it. Yes, they came up to me and said, "Look, how would you like to do this undercover work? "They didn't ask the guy next to me who's sitting there with a three-piece suit and wingtip shoes. They asked me. Do you know what I'm saying?

[00:12:27] So keeping that in mind is yes, that happens a lot in the Bureau where you utilize minorities and also non-minority guys, but look, so we were addressing whatever the problem was. At that time, it was narcotics so only, of course, you had to be a Spanish speaker in order to infiltrate the group. You certainly couldn't be a guy — they are regular guys because that just makes it too hard. But I have seen situations where I'm doing the undercover and we needed other undercover guys to help and some of these people, agents and guys would say tap on to another Hispanic, just by virtue of that person being a Hispanic. But that person was like the Urkel of a Hispanics. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:13:13] Steve Urkel of Hispanics. 

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:13:14] I'm going, "Wait a minute. You can't use this guy. That'll be equivalent to me saying, 'Let's put all the white guys with the mobsters.'" You know being an undercover. It's a skill. It's something, not that you learn. It's something you're born with. Although we have this great FBI training and undercover school, you don't become an undercover by going to class, you got to be able to think quick on your feet. You have to be able to be comfortable around all types of people. You have to be quick-witted, unlikeable, and not fearful of it. And so not everybody fits into that criteria, but the main reason, I guess I was tapped because I did speak Spanish. They needed Spanish speakers.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:13:57] I know that your family escaped from Cuba and I'm wondering, okay, so that makes you a Spanish speaker that makes you somebody who probably can blend with other Latinos or people who ever had maybe a — should I say rough upbringing? I mean, you lived in the Bronx in the '70s and '80s, right?

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:14:14] Yeah, well, that's true. I came in here when I was nine years old from Cuba. Our family came with just our clothes on our back. Of course, I lived in the tough areas. I lived in Washington Heights. When we moved to the Bronx, we thought we hit the lottery. I mean, think about that? You're moving from Washington Heights to the Bronx and you think, "Wow, we made it."

Jordan Harbinger: [00:14:32] Yeah, moving on up.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:14:33] so I grew up in a tough neighborhood. I grew up in a neighborhood, whether you either became a cop or you would chase by one. There's no other option, you know? So of course, you know, that developed a lot of my forming of my personality, survival skills, how to get along, how to read people, body language, when danger is coming, when it's not dangerous. Say a lot of people who go to these undercover schools that we give, think that they — maybe they'll see the movie Donnie Brasco. They'll see some undercover movie and they'll say, "Well, I want to be that." No, that doesn't work that way, you're either born with this skill or you have no business doing this because you're either going to get hurt or get somebody else hurt.

[00:15:11] So it is something that I picked up in the streets of New York. That kind of formed my personality, that I was able to apply as an undercover. Just like I might have been good as an undercover agent, but I respect those agents who were good administrative agents. As you could go to court, file affidavit, file arrest warrant, search warrants, title III applications. I couldn't do that. This was my little niche. You know, there were guys who were a good bomb squad. I mean, picture that? You got guys working in a bomb squad. That's a bomb over there, you go defuse it. What are you nuts?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:15:49] Yeah. That's a different kind of — you need somebody who can keep their cool under a totally different kind of pressure to do that job.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:15:55] Exactly. And I respect that and that's what it is. You find your little niche and I was lucky to have found it very early on in my career and then I just rolled with it. And towards the end of my career, I've never had a case assigned to me. I was solely dedicated — I don't think any agent could claim that. That I was just the one who went undercover and I was bouncing from one case to the other, or some of them were simultaneous. Some of them were difficult, but that's all I did. I had a zero caseload but I was actively involved in five or six cases at one time. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:16:28] It kind of sounds like if you weren't working for the FBI, you just would have been a criminal that was really busy. 

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:16:34] Yeah. If I wasn't working for the FBI, I would have been investigated by the FBI.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:16:38] Yeah, exactly. Yeah. 

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:16:40] It's something that I felt very, very happy to do it. And also one of the beauties about the FBI. I mean, you have the amazing most men and women who are agents in the FBI. And I know lately, we're taking a hit, but hey, you know, let me assure you, Jordan, that's a cabal and itself that's taken the hit. That's not the overall agent. Men and women are hardworking. They're out there every day, busting their hump, trying to make cases, and keep it safe. And they're not involved in any of the politics around us. And that is a very important thing. So I always felt very comfortable with what I did. I felt uncomfortable watching me and that they want to make sure that I will come out of a meeting alive. Because at the end of the day, that's the most important thing. You want to be able to come out of your meeting without being whacked. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:17:27] You mentioned in the book that you use networking skills and positive charisma to generate rapport with people. So you would say — you said everyone loves a happy guy, which I thought was an interesting kind of technique because I think a lot of people don't think about using that kind of skill. They're thinking about other investigative techniques, but you actually focused on getting people to like and trust you. 

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:17:48] Well, I learned about human nature very early on. And I guess it was when I came from Cuba, I remember getting on the plane from Miami to New York, where we were going to live. I remember my father said, "Listen," he says, "Whatever happens if you bump into an American, you step on their shoes on an airplane, just say, 'I'm sorry.' They will be the most forgiving, appreciative people." So what I've learned, I think throughout my life, It's always when you go into meeting somebody, who's a stranger. Whether that person is a mobster, cartel leader, I'm going there with the attitude of being nice. I'm starting as a regular guy. I'm not going there with a chip on my shoulder. I'm not going there like a flaming asshole. Because you know what happens today? If you start up here really tough like you were a tough guy, then how are you going to go? You can't go down. Because first impressions are your most important impression. So I always wanted to start down here. If I needed to take it up, I could take it up.

[00:18:49] Well, my thing was, I treated people respect. I was jovial. I hung out with them. People gravitate to me because of my size. I mean, I'm 6'4", 390 pounds. And I'm a guy who is not — you know, like Luca Brasi who could say two words. I mean, I was like, you see me now, I'm outgoing, personable. I never had a problem with making friends. And I used that for me. I would always go in, not with that tough-guy attitude. And I've seen guys do, and you know what, that's ineffective because you don't want to do that. You want to disarm this person. You want this person to like you so they could tell you what you want to hear. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:19:31] Yeah.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:19:31] You don't want to have them put blocks. You want to become their buddies. So then all of a sudden they're confiding in you. "This is what we're going to do. This is what we did. I did this." And while all of that's going on, you're taping them. And that's the important thing, gathering evidence.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:19:48] You're listening to The Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest Joaquin "Jack" Garcia. We'll be right back.

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[00:21:59] And now back to Jack Garcia on The Jordan Harbinger Show.

[00:22:05] How do you know what to do and how to act? You mentioned you got it from the streets, but there's a bad guy code and you talk about this in the book. Like one thing was never to pay for drinks or food directly, just leave huge tips. And I can imagine trying that and having the waiter chase me down and be like, "Man, you didn't pay for your meal." And I'm like, "But I left a hundred dollars on the table." "Yeah. Well, you didn't pay the bill." 

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:22:26] Well, you know what? The poorest that we went to, we went to a lot of bar restaurants. Some of these guys were mob guys that owned it. I walked in to wait to see what the other guys I was meeting. I'm in the bar. There's a bar mate there, a good looking young lady. She's serving me. "What would you like?" Usually, my drink was, "Give me a Ketel one martini with 3 olives, a glass of water on the side." So I would get the glass. She wouldn't ask me how much. I finished the drink. The guys come in. I'm going to go, go in my pocket, take out that wad of money, that knot with a rubber band on it. Bam! Give her a hundred dollars. Well, she's not going to say, "Hey, you owe me $19.95 for a drink." Because even if I did that — $19.95 — she's still going to make 80 bucks on you.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:23:12] Right.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:23:13] But what she's going to do is she's going to tell the manager, "Hey, that guy is a great guy." She says, "He just gave me an $80 tip for a drink." So what you do is you establish the fact that you are making money. That you are a powerful guy. You know you don't go out with mobsters and say, "Hey, I had the soup and the sandwich. Here's $20." Or, you know, "Are you kidding me? I'm not going to pay for it. Let's split it in four ways." Can you imagine four gangsters sitting around going, "Let's split it up. I had the soap. You had the sandwich and french fries." Well, what about the tip? Everybody fights because, in the mob, it's all the make-believe. The more successful you are — it's every time you take that roll out and you've got that wad of money. That shows that you've been scammy. You've been doing some work. You're out there making — you're not a brokester. You're not as they used to say, a morte d'fam, you know, some deadbeat.

[00:24:08] So that is one of the things I wanted sometimes to pick up that check because it empowered me. Sometimes we get into bidding work that goes, "Hey, your money's no good here. What are you doing? You're embarrassing me over here." "What do you mean? You paid a lot." "Let me get this. Forget about it." "You pay for it." So you fight over it but one thing was for sure, if you were a captain and above, you had alligator arms. You never went into your pockets at all. These guys are so tight. They squeak with their alligator shoes. I bet these guys were. I'm telling you but we went out there and it was all about showing that you were successful before you went out, your car was clean. You had your nice alligator shoes. You had your manicure. You had your nice suit, your Brioni's, Zegna's, everything. You look like a million dollars but inside, they were thugs, they were criminals. They were sociopaths. And they go out there and they put on a big show and meanwhile, they're outside borrowing money from somebody and trying to scrape nickels and dimes. But you don't want to come off as that, as a guy who's a brokester. You always want to come up like, "Hey, I just landed a big deal." 

[00:25:21] And one other thing is if you're making money in the mob, money flows up. If you are somehow in the family, if you're on record with them as an associate, or even if you're a made guy, you have to kick up money up. Money always flows up. Never does a float down. I would do that occasionally. We give the impression when I was undercover with the mob that we gave the impression that I was out there, hustling, doing scams and all of that, but in reality, we were creating crimes. I will come back and say, "Listen," I said, "I just got my guys to score a couple of plasma television sets. Look, what do you think? I'm selling them for like a grand apiece." So, of course, we would put it in our budget of our undercover and buy televisions about 2,500 and sell it to them for a thousand as stolen merchandise. Now, what does that do? That shows that I'm an earner. I'm a guy who's making money.

[00:26:15] Then the same thing would watch us. We would go out there and we would get it from our forfeiture unit of all the white-collar criminals and every other person, all their jewelry and mink coats. You name it. All the high-valuable items and I would say we did a stickup down in Miami. I have my crew go out there, did some home invasions for some of these Cubans down in drug deals. And then I would say, "I'll give you a president watch. All I'm looking for is 5,000. Everything above that is yours." They could sell that watch at $7,000, $8,000 like this. So, of course, that showed not only that I'm kicking money up, but I'm giving them an opportunity to earn. So I made myself valuable and indisposable.

[00:26:58] If I would have gone in there and become a guy who had never a penny, never went into his wallet, never picked up a tab, never had a dime, never kicked up money, never gave tribute payments, I'd be on my ass. They throw me out. They would never allow me to hang out with them. That's just not the way it works in that life.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:27:16] There's a lot of funny little mafia tells, right? Like you mentioned the wad of cash with the rubber band around it.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:27:23] Yes.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:27:24] It's like a rubber band that you literally get from broccoli, which I thought was kind of funny. Like all of these rich guys have these vegetable rubber bands that they keep money wrapped in. And like you never asked for the menu. There are all these little things that you wrote about where I just thought, "What's that about?" Like, why don't you ever ask? You never ask what's on draft. You never asked for the menu. You always know what you want. Like this is like cultural stuff that you got to master.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:27:48] Cultural and out there in the streets if you've been a knock-around guy. You're a guy who's out there. You're not a guy who takes out a little leather wallet and he's going through change or he's doing that — okay, you don't do that. It's also, you're not the type of guy who will go in, weary. I would walk in a restaurant — oka, first of all, they see me coming, a big guy like me. They're happy. They're tripping over themselves just to take care of me. They know I'm this connected guy because I'm with the Gambino crime family. "Hey, come sit here, big Jack right here." The guy will come in and I said, "Get my drink," because by then they knew my drink or else they would bring it at the same time. And then what would happen is I would go, "Hey Tony, what am I eating today?" "Oh, I made a special. You got to try it. It is unbelievable. It's a good osso buco, nice off the bone." "Yeah, yeah," I said, "Bring it on." And then he said, "How about if I make a little something on the side? Do you like that?" "Yeah, bring that too. Bring it all out." Next thing you know, you're eating like a king. Do you know what I mean? But those are behavior things.

[00:28:55] One of the big adjustments for me was when I go out with my wife. And we go to a restaurant. I go in there with the reservation, which I never had. With a reservation, go in and they'll say, "I'm sorry. Your table's not ready. Mr. Garcia. You could sit by the bar and we'll let you know when it's ready."

Jordan Harbinger: [00:29:14] This is like civilian Jack Garcia out on a date with your wife. Whereas mafia Garcia is like, "Hey." 

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:29:20] "I made reservations. Do I look like an Indian to you?" I said, "Get me that table right now. What's wrong with you?" That's how you behaved in that world. It was wild. And now, you sit there and you're going, "Oh my God, is my table ready?" You feel like a schmo. In that world, they take care of these people as if they're celebrities. They want to hobnob with these people that are either outlaws or mobsters because they're either given somehow by association, respect or bring on fear. And that is so wrong. Why isn't the regular guy? Why aren't you and I going to be getting treatment and take those low lives and make them sit and wait outside? Because they don't want that. It's all about a show. It's fear. They're all big-time eaters and bring the wine, bring this, bring that. I just found that to be an adjustment to me, I hardly like, "Hey guys, I was a special agent at the FBI. I got to sit out here for an hour and you see these schmoes coming in there before me. Who are they? They don't even have a reservation."

Jordan Harbinger: [00:30:26] You don't exactly look like a cop at almost 400 pounds you mentioned. And you have this mafia image. You said like you're an earner like you're scamming, but I know you were also — is it posing as a money launderer, or is that kind of part of that whole thing? Or is that just one of many various things, occupations?

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:30:44] Yeah, there were many. Jordan, I've done everything. I mean, I have posed as a money launderer. I've worked as a drug dealer. I have worked as a transporter for drug dealers. I worked as a warehouse guy. I've been a gangster. I've been involved in cases that deal with police corruption, political corruption, Asian organized crime, Russian organized crime, and the whole gamut. There are different hats that you play and there are different ways of how to play them. An example of that is when you're out there with the drug dealers or the dirty cops or whatever, you don't owe them any explanation as to where you're at or why didn't I call you back right away when you called. I don't have to explain that to you because that's a circle world that you don't.

[00:31:33] In the mob thing, there is deference there, there is respect. I remember the first time when I was in tight with Greg DePalma and he called me, we had those Nec telephones. Remember those, Jordan?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:31:46] Yeah.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:31:47] The radio — and I hear him going, "Hey, Jackie boy, pick up the phone." I didn't want to pick up the phone. I'm in Miami working another case. I let it go. The next day when I fly back, I see him. He goes, "Where were you yesterday?" I said, "I told you I was going down to Miami." He said, "Why don't you pick up the phone?" I said, "Because I was busy." He said, "You were busy? You can't be busy? In this life, when I call you, you answer. And the reason for that is how do I know you were not arrested. How do I know you're not with the cops? How do you know you're not working right now for the cop? I need you to be available 24/7, 365." And he would do that. I would get calls from him all hours of the night, two o'clock in the morning. He would say, "Jackie boy, I'm watching Rio Bravo on TV. He used to love the old Western. "Oh, it's great. Put it on and turn the channel." He wasn't calling me to tell me to put it on. He was calling me to see if I'm around. Then I go back with the other guys on the crew and he says, "Yeah, Greg called me up yesterday at three in the morning. I don't know. He was talking about something in the morning that he had to do. It's all because they learned from their previous arrests. They learned about things that they have done and they morphed themselves. Into a life to keep that from happening.

[00:33:05] Now, if you did that to me, if you're a drug dealer and you said to me, "I call you, you call me back." You know where I'm going to tell you to go. I don't owe you an explanation, dude. "Hey, we're here doing business. That's the end of that? You don't need to know. What are you a cop?" The mob, a whole different animal. I remember that Greg DePalma, one time I waited for him — 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:33:26] Greg DePalma is like a boss or something?

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:33:29] Yeah. Greg DePalma was a captain in the Gambino crime family. I was in his crew. I was his driver. Very early on, okay, he tells me, "Meet me in such and such a place." I was late for something. I get there and he looks at me and he gets in a car and he takes off and he says, before he takes off, "You wait here for me." Now, I'm sitting out there. It's a hot day. God knows surveillance all over the place. He comes back about three hours later, he says, "How does it feel?" I said, "What do you mean? How's it feel?" He said, "Don't you ever do that to me again? If I tell you to be here at one o'clock, you're here at one o'clock. Do you understand me?" You got a boss, that's it.

It's different rules. You know, yet when I worked dope and I was dealing with Colombians and Dominicans and Cubans and all of that. You say one o'clock, you end up 7:30 at night. That's just cultural. That's also the fact that things are different. And the other thing about Greg was that I learned this — this is what other guys told me. Greg DePalma could be a beautiful sunny day. If Greg DePalma calls you up and he says, "Hey, Jack, I want you to come to pick me up but bring the umbrella because it's going to rain." And you look at that sky and there's not a cloud in the sky. When you see Greg DePalma, you better bring that umbrella. And you know why? Because it's going to rain because Greg said it was going to rain and you don't question. It's that blinded — 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:34:58] Obedience.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:34:59] — obedience. Exactly. And that's what went on, Jordan, which was really amazing compared to all the criminal groups that I've worked and I've done like I said, so many of them, including bikers and every — nobody plays by those rules. It really is an amazing culture, that whole mob world, but listen, there are also so many fake things that the whole mob is. A lot of it is show, yeah, they don't work drugs yet. Everybody's been locked up for drugs. Just the list goes on and on.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:35:30] This is The Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest Jack Garcia. We'll be right back.

[00:35:35] This episode is sponsored in part by Ebb Sleep CoolDrift. It's no surprise that current events might be contributing to a little more stress, a little bit of sleep deprivation. I don't know if you maybe had a baby and they're screaming and your air conditioning broke. Like we did the other night. Ebb Sleep CoolDrift can help. If you have trouble falling asleep, if you wake up, you feel like you've hardly slept. Essentially this device — this is so interesting, some of the science behind this — it cools down a specific part of your head and brain. And I know that sounds ridiculous, but I've been using this thing and I've been conking out now. You got to make sure that you're looking at the science yourself. I always recommend that. I used it last night because again, my AC went out and I got to tell you, it was way more comfortable than I would have been because this thing cools you down in the right way and you can throw a blanket on, you're not going to be cold. The new one is Ebb Sleep CoolDrift. It's actually portable. It's lightweight. You can throw it in your suitcase. You can bring it to your in-law's house, which is where essentially we're living half the time. And we all know that we need to maintain good sleep because that is critical to our physical and mental health and our performance. So if your sleep isn't as good as you'd like it to be try the Ebb Sleep. They got a great guarantee. Jen. 

Jen Harbinger: [00:36:43] Just for our listeners, you can save $25 off of your order by going to tryebb.com/jordan and using promo code JORDAN at checkout. That's $25 off of your order, and you can try it risk-free for 60 nights. That's try-E-B-B.com/jordan, tryebb.com/jordan and use promo code JORDAN to save $25 today. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:37:06] This episode is also sponsored by Cadence13, a new podcast, The Boardroom: Out of Office. This is a new podcast from Rich Kleiman, who is the co-founder of Thirty-Five Ventures alongside his business partner, Kevin Durant. On Out of Office, New York City native and entrepreneurial Kleiman will give you an all-access pass to some of the greatest minds in sports, business, entertainment, and tech. As guests share how their personal experiences have helped shape their careers. Kleiman will also explore the experiences, the people, and the stories of how big ideas come to life. The conversations that occur outside of the office where the real business gets done. You can listen and subscribe to The Boardroom: Out of Office on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your shows. That's The Boardroom: Out of Office with Rich Kleiman.

[00:37:47] Thanks for listening and supporting the show. Your support sort of our advertisers keeps us going. I know I say that a lot but I do mean it. To learn more and to get links to all the great discounts you heard, check out the deals for yourself and support the show, go to jordanharbinger.com/deals. We've also got a worksheet for today's episode. The link is in the show notes at jordanharbinger.com/podcast.

[00:38:08] And now back to Jack Garcia On The Jordan Harbinger Show.

[00:38:13] You became an undercover in the Italian Gambino family. This is an Italian family, but you're Cuban. So did you straight up say, "All right, I'm Cuban, but I'm going to be Italian." Or were you like, "I'm Italian now"? I mean, how does that work? 

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:38:24] Wait, I'm not?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:38:26] Yeah, I don't know. I'm not going to argue with this.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:38:28] Do you remember George Costanza? He goes, "I'm not an architect. What do you mean? I'm not?" What happened was the guy who was running the case, Nat Parisi, a great agent, he's Italian himself. And I did a couple of cases for him, drug cases. So he calls me up and he says, "Listen, we got this situation in the strip club and are being shaken down by some Albanians. And, you know, possibly the mob is involved. We want you to get it. We're looking for a guy like you. We now think that you could do the job." And I said, "Oh, you have me at a strip club. Okay, so I'm in this thing." So then he said, "Well, look, we want to have you pass you off as an Italian." I go, "I can't pass off as an Italian because I've never thought that." As far as my parents only spoke Spanish, I grew up in a home speaking Spanish. I eat rice and beans, Moros, and plantains, everything. And I said, "Well, I don't know if I could pull this." He goes, "Yeah, you could pull it." He said, "Well, either going to have you as being half-and-half where your father would be or mother would be Italian and your other parent is going to be Cuban or we'll take another chance of making you totally Italian."

[00:39:42] So I went into this thing and I'm going, "All right, so I could explain being Cuban and Italian in case it comes up." Literally, within the second meeting, the guy goes, "Hey, are you Italian? What part of Italy are you from?" So I went with it. I say, "I'm from Sicily. He says, "Oh, yeah, you were CG. Okay, yeah, great." Nobody ever questioned who I was. Subsequently, when the case got taken down, these bad guys, all over the place would call me to this pet. "How did this pet ever get in?" But you know what it is? I was well prepared. The agent being Italian explained to me the different types of food. How to pronounce those foods?

[00:40:21] So you don't go in there and say, "Yeah, I'll have some bra-ci-o-le." And he goes, "Bra-ci-o-le? It's bra-ci-ole." And how to eat and order certain, just like in the TV show, The Office. Do you remember? "Do you have any gabagool?" Gabagool — do you remember that scene? Well, that's kind of — you learn how to say it because we set up this whole identification of making me a third-generation Sicilian who grew up in Miami, among the Cubans. And we had all of my friends, so-called friends with drug dope dealers. I was in the drug trade and even had myself prepared by having informants that I had in Miami in the event that maybe somebody doubted who I was. These guys would vouch for me but I even took it the next step over. When I was done in Miami, I created that I looked at all the various cemeteries and looked for a Mr. and Mrs. Falcone and I found them. So they would have been my parents. And why did I do that? Because of the fact that they are so distrustful, the last thing I needed, Jordan, is them being down in Miami with me and the guy innocently says, "Hey, big Jack, I know you're from here. I know you lost your parents early on. Before we go to dinner, just go pay our respects to your parents. That'd be nice. Don't you think?" And what are you going to do next? 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:41:44] Yeah. Walk around the cemetery for three hours, looking for people with the right name.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:41:48] Yeah, or else like, "I don't know where they are." Do you know what I'm saying?" So I had it, I had it all lined up. The only fear I had maybe would have gotten some flowers when I got there and the sons, the offsprings, are the real Falcones where there and they go, "Who the hell are you?"

Jordan Harbinger: [00:42:01] Yeah.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:42:01] You know? 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:42:02] Yeah.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:42:02] But that of course never — 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:42:04] What are the odds of that?

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:42:05] Yeah, exactly. That never happened. But you have to deal not like you do with the other groups, like the drug dealers and all of that. That stuff, they don't get into your personal life. They did — I actually had early on in the investigation, the old man came up to me because how would you like to get some union benefits? So I joined the union. Okay. That had — 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:42:27] Like a construction worker union?

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:42:29] It was a restaurant type union, server union. I think it was local 305. It had eyeglasses, dental, all medical, retirement. Okay, their benefits were better than the FBI benefits. That's how good they were and what I was into when I was paying for that, with that, because that's what they care about and I had to fill out a form. Now, after I filled it out. What if they came back? And he goes, "Jackie boy, you know we got to be careful. So I checked you out. You're cool. You're fine." But I guarantee you, they took the date of birth. I took the social, all of the stuff that they did was checking me out and they have to do that for fear infiltration — 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:43:15] Sure.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:43:16] — informants because of my role. How I came into be in this case was we had an informant who was well-liked and respected by these guys. He brought me in as an investor, as a friend of the club that he owned a strip club. So I came out of nowhere. It was just like in the mob is kind of like in Goodfellas when the little kid opens the door wearing a suit, he goes, "As long as I can refer back, as I can remember, I always wanted to be a gangster." So it's one of those situations that I did. And I wanted to be careful. I want to make sure my I's were dotted. I wanted to make sure my T's were crossed. Because the last thing I needed to do is make one mistake and it'd be a fatal one.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:44:01] Sure. I mean, I understand playing an Italian for Asian gangsters, Russian gangsters, and playing Cuban for Italians, but playing it Italian for Italians, that's — you are just right on the line. You say ma-re-na-ra instead of ma-ri-ne-ra or whatever, it's over.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:44:16] Right. But see, I had that covered. Not only because I went to the training that I had beforehand, but also I thought like you that in the mob, yes, there were Italian. You have to be Italian to be proposed for membership. The associates could be any kind, women or whatever, but I was kind of careful of bringing out too much, but the Italian part, I felt I did it because all of these guys didn't speak Italian. These were Americanized guys. This is a whole generation. Keep in mind. The mob started — when — in the '30s. So a lot of these guys are either old-timers, which were few and dying off, and then these were the sons or other new guys. So you see what I'm saying? I wasn't going there and sitting at a bunch of guys who were taught. I've never recalled in my almost three years anybody talking Italian at any mob meeting whatsoever. They were Americanized. There were Italian, but they were Americanized. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:45:17] So that makes sense and especially, I would imagine, you know, your Cuban accent is covered if you're from Cuba, not a lot of people maybe know about it, but if you were Mexican, people could backstop you more easily. Right? Because they can just put people down there. They've got roots down there but did you find that Cuba itself had less ties to organized crime because Castro kind of put a hard stop between everything when that regime changed? 

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:45:40] Well, first of all, I never told these guys I was Cuban.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:45:43] Sure.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:45:43] As far as they're concerned, I was born in the US. But as far as the Cuba thing was concerned is — just remember Cuba before Castro was run by corruption and by the mob. So Castro came in with the, that he was going to free and liberate Cuba from the mob and corruption. And then in turn, he went to bed ride with the Russian. So mobsters wise, as far as they're concerned I never told him that I was Cuban, but I did tell them I grew up in Miami as you know, which is predominantly Cuban and there, I grew up with the Cubans. So I picked up a couple of words here and there. Because down there, there's actual signs in Miami that say we speak English. So it's foreseeable. I maybe had a little accent because I was around. I told them my girlfriend and my wife is Cuban. You know, all of that stuff. So it was kind of a believable — 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:46:32] Sure.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:46:32] — with that and listen, no one suspected it. And like I said too much, later on, it came out that they were kind of disappointed. And I guess that was the big slap in the face to the mob. The fact that an FBI agent and a Cuban-born FBI agent was able to infiltrate them and was going to be proposed for membership. I mean, that's a direct slap in the face. I mean, if you look at Joe Pistone and Donnie Brasco, he's Italian but, you know, I'm not and yet I didn't find that to be — nobody ever said to me, "Hey, are you Cuban? So what are you? You're not Italian." You know no one said that to me. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:47:10] Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. I know you got in with the boss. Of course, you become an associate. Did they give you a diamond pinky ring? Is that a part of this? Either you gave one or you got one. I can't remember now.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:47:22] I got one. It was a pinky ring. It was the most gorgeous ring. It had some diamonds in it. The captain, when he put me — basically what they first do is they put you on record and that just means that, "Hey, I own you."

Jordan Harbinger: [00:47:34] Okay.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:47:35] That's what it means. Like, for instance, if you own a restaurant or right now, your show, if you are with the mob, I say, "Hey Jordan, you're on record with us." That means we protect you. Nobody could shake it down, but yeah, we can shake you down but you're on record with us. So I got put on record with the Gambino crime family, and he gave me this ring, which was the gorgeous thing I've ever seen in my life. I wore it in my pocket but when I saw your man, I put it on, it was the ring — but anyway that was the introduction. Not everybody does that. I mean, that's just what he did with me. And then after that, what happens is after you prove yourself, some guys are associates for years and years and never, ever get proposed.

[00:48:22] What happened much later on, he felt I've met the requirements of what it is to be a wise guy. And that's the guy who keeps his mouth shut. The guy who makes money and kicks the money up. The guy who could do time and a guy who's capable of violence. All of those are the things that require you to get straightened out. He came to me and he said, "I'm going to get you proposed." And he asked me, "Are you involved in any drug traffic?" I said, "Greg, you know, I was—" Greg goes, "I don't care about what you did. You can't be involved in any drug traffic at least for the last five years, any issues with it." I said, "No, no, no problem."

Jordan Harbinger: [00:49:02] Why is that again?

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:49:03] Well, what they have a rule, at least it was with the Gambinos that if you're a drug dealer or were drug dealers you couldn't have been for the last five years and that's because of the statute of limitations. They don't want you to get collared on a drug cape you did three years ago and maybe have that be influenced the flipping you.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:49:25] Ah.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:49:26] But that's the irony of that is it's a lie because there were many guys who were drug dealers. And as long as they hand the envelope, what they do is they totally block it out of their heads. They don't go and say, "What did you get this money? How did you get this? Did you do it?" They'll accept whatever money and if something — if you can, you're on your own. So that was his first priority. And then he says that they were going to put my name on the list, which he did. And that list is passed around to all the family. And that says Jack — and the list, the way it works, you list a person and the year that they die.

[00:50:05] So let's say Joey Bag o' Donuts. He died in 1998. So now I'm going to be replacing Joey Bag o' Donuts because there are certain numbers that they are allowed to have, and that list is spread. The reason they spread that list. They want to say, "Do you know anything about this guy? Is this guy a pervert? Is this guy previously on record with another family? Is this guy a rat?" Anything that — once you clear that obstacle, you then get put in to like, okay, you're going to get straightened out. And then that day will come. And the day all the family bosses are there, the captains. You're in separate rooms with everybody else. Get made. You go down individually, they cut your finger, blood drips into a saint — a religious mass card. You light it on fire and you say, "May I burn in hell like this saint if I betray my family," and you take this oath of Omertà which is the vow of silence.

[00:51:05] So that's the process. I only made it to my list going around, the reason being things were put on hold, because Joe Massino, who was the boss of the Bonanno's decided to cooperate. So things kind of froze and also a decision made by the FBI, which I viewed as very shortsighted. And they pulled the operation because they felt we had enough mobsters and they didn't really want to devote the continuation of the case, which you know, myself and the United States attorneys and the other guys working in the case were fighting that battle but we lost and, of course, we took the case down. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:51:47] Yeah, I know they took the case down and we can talk a little bit more about that in a bit. I am curious though, what is the list on? I assume they're not using Google docs or Microsoft Word. I mean, where do they keep the list? What's the list? Is it an actual document?

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:52:00] Yeah, it's an actual paper document with the names. In fact, a list was found in John Gotti Jr. and along with the money, they seized hidden somewhere like in the basement or something. So that's what the list is. You see it. The  boss or the street boss goes around and tells everybody, "Hey, do you know this guy?" They think about straightening him out and then, of course, they get rid of him. Every once in a while these lists, or if you even Google mafia list, you'll see the list that was found, I believe, in John Gotti Jr.'s home. That listed about seven or eight names. My name is not on there because this is pre-me, but that's how the list works.

[00:52:40] They have their own system in place because they don't want to have any insults, but usually it's a rubber stamp because by then they should know what kind of guy you are. And by being on record means that you could have been working with the Lucchese crime family, and then you left for whatever reason. And then you're now with the Gambinos. You need to answer that. "Why did you come here? Why didn't you tell us that?" And then there could be a situation where the Lucchese's if they evaluate you as being a guy who made a lot of money, they may claim you and say, "Well. you're not going to be one of those. You could be one of us." So that's how it works

Jordan Harbinger: [00:53:20] As we reach 400 episodes of the show and well, over a decade of podcasting, I keep thinking about which have been some of my favorite episodes in which you'll enjoy the most that you might've missed. Stick around for the end of the show to hear my final thoughts on this episode with Jack Garcia. But before I get into that, here's what you should check out next on The Jordan Harbinger Show.

Ken Perenyi: [00:53:39] He gave me a book on art forgery. I found myself drawn to these old masters. How did these artists take paint from a pallet? Arrange it on a canvas. I began to unlock the secrets. I was a storehouse of knowledge of how to create an illusion. Present it to an experienced expert, manipulate his mind, and convince him and bring him to the inevitable conclusion that the painting is genuine.

[00:54:19] We flooded the market with my paintings and I couldn't believe what I did. I couldn't believe it. Then the dominoes started falling and eventually the FBI was led to my door. They uncovered a mountain of evidence against me.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:54:36] But they never actually got you. At this point, you sold a lot. You've got like a million dollars in cash. You sold one painting for 717,000. Why did it go away? Why did you never get indicted? And how are we having this conversation?

Ken Perenyi: [00:54:54] I guess that's the greatest story of all.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:54:57] To hear how Ken Perenyi made millions in art forgery, dodged the mafia and the FBI, subscribe to The Jordan Harbinger Show and check out episode 282 in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now.

[00:55:13] Now I really love this episode with Joaquin Garcia. This is the end of part one. We've actually got a lot more coming in part two. This guy's got stories for days, and he was a fun conversation. As you can tell, this guy was a fun conversation and I'm excited for part two. So stay tuned for part two coming up right here on The Jordan Harbinger Show.

[00:55:30] Links to Joaquin's book will be linked in the show notes. If you do buy books from any guests on the show, please do use our website links. It helps support the show. Worksheets for this episode in the show notes, transcripts in the show notes. And there's a video of this interview on our YouTube channel at jordanharbinger.com/youtube. I'm at @JordanHarbinger on both Twitter and Instagram, or just hit me on LinkedIn.

[00:55:52] I'm teaching you how to connect with great people and manage relationships using systems using tiny habits over at our Six-Minute Networking course, which is free over at jordanharbinger.com/course. Dig that well before you get thirsty. Most of the guests on the show, they subscribe to the course in the newsletter. Come join us, you'll be in smart company. Get those people's skills like Jack Garcia.

[00:56:12] This show is created in association with PodcastOne and my amazing team, including Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for this show, this free show, is that you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting. So if you know somebody who's interested in the mafia, the FBI, undercover work, maybe even just the people skills involved or a great story, share this episode with them. Hopefully, you find something great in every episode. Please do share the show with those you care about. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show, so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time.

Transcript for Joaquin “Jack” Garcia | Undercover in the Mafia Part One (Episode 392)

Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Coming up on The Jordan Harbinger Show. 

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:00:02] If you're making money in the mob, money flows up. If you are somehow in the family, if you're on record with them as an associate, or even if you're a made guy, you have to kick money up. Money always flows up. Never does it float down.

[00:00:22] Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:22] Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people. If you're new to the show, we have in-depth conversations with people at the top of their game, astronauts and entrepreneurs, spies and psychologists, even the occasional billionaire investor. Each show turns our guest's wisdom into practical advice that you can use to build a deeper understanding of how the world works and become a better critical thinker.

[00:00:48] Today, Joaquin, aka Jack Garcia, former FBI agent who went undercover with the Italian mafia, namely the Gambino crime family. Jack was in so deep. He was almost a made man and had the trust of gangsters at some of the highest levels of the organization. In this episode, we'll learn how Jack managed to pose as a mobster, even though he was Cuban and not Italian, including some of the tells that the mafia uses to figure out who's legit and who's not. We'll also talk a lot about how the mafia works, who gets paid and how, mafia culture and rules, and how Jack took down dozens of gangsters during his time undercover.

[00:01:24] Jack credits a lot of his success undercover to his people skills and you'll pick up some of that in our free course Six-Minute Networking over at jordanharbinger.com/course. No upsells, no enter your credit card crap, just good learning and that's at jordanharbinger.com/course.

[00:01:39] Now, here's Jack Garcia on The Jordan Harbinger Show.

[00:01:45] Have you ever heard of "Sammy the Bull" Gravano? Does that name ring a bell?

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:01:49] Yes, I've heard of him, right. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:01:50] But you never met him or you did or you don't?

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:01:52] No. Sammy the Bull was actually in a — by then, he had cooperated with the government. See that was in the '80. I was, you know, in the 2000s. And he really was very influential and put a lot of bad guys away, including John Gotti.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:02:08] Yeah. I mean, that's what he mentioned. He's like, "Look, you know, I did my part and everybody else was like. 'Screw it.' So why was I going to go to jail? I have kids and a wife too," you know, like if that makes sense. 

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:02:19] Well, that's what they do, Jordan. I mean, I don't know if you're aware of it, but what happens now — the mob originally was a way of life. You know, these old-timers, they did it for a cause, they did it for a reason. They believed they died. They were pure Cosa Nostra. And then what happens when they get here kind of Americanized? They start changing their ways and start approaching it, not as a way of life but as a business, and they're making money. So what happens when a business is going under? They decided to bankrupt themselves or end it somehow. Well, that's how these mob guys are because they're afraid of what we, the law enforcement, can hit them with RICO, you know, sometimes 25, 30, 40 years. So they make a business decision and say, "Wait a minute, I'm going to cut my losses because in reality, if I play the true Cosa Nostra way and take it with me and go to jail. Who's going to take care of my family?"

Jordan Harbinger: [00:03:15] Right.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:03:16] Nobody is.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:03:17] Cosa Nostra is that name — is that Sicilian or Italian name of the mafia? 

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:03:21] Cosa Nostra is what mafia here in the US. It's mafia in Europe, in Italy. It's Cosa Nostra here. People sometimes use La Cosa Nostra but in reality, it's only Cosa Nostra. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:03:34] Okay. And it means — what does that mean? Our thing.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:03:36] It means our thing. That's correct. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:03:38] And when you say hit him with RICO. RICO is an organized crime, set of organized crime statutes that allow you to — well, why don't you explain that? I'm a lawyer. I should know this but I can't remember. It's been a long time.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:03:48] Well, you know, I'm a law enforcement officer. I've done so many RICO cases. The definition of RICO, I think, it's Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations. Now, what is it? It's an act that combines numerous offenses that an enterprise deals in and this is a way to get to the head of the enterprise. So for instance, if you're operating under the Gambino crime family, those who are the workers underneath them, any profits, any extortion, any criminal acts that fall within these — I think, its 26 violations could be used to dismantle, disturb, and destroy organized crime. So it's a very effective law enforcement tool and it carries with it tremendous time. I'm talking 25, 30, 40, and it's just not limited to, of course, organized crime. I mean, you could do with narcotics. There's any time that there is a group, an enterprise, where multiple people all working together for the commission of a crime.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:04:52] So this is the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations act. So the idea behind RICO, I guess, from 1970, which is when it came out was you wouldn't be able to get a lot of these guys with anything, because they'd say, "Look, I'm just keeping money in my basement. There's no crime against that. Oh, look, I have an illegal gun. All I get is a firearms charge." But with RICO, it's, "Look, we know that you're associated with these people and that this money is for drugs, which are used to then trade for arms, which this guy has." So now, everybody is in one under one charge or several charges that carry a stronger penalty, they can't just sort of divide things up. It's like when Tony Soprano says, "Hey, hold this gun for me in the basement, in the shoebox because it's just a light charge. I don't know where that came from." Under RICO, you can get everybody who's involved with something like that as long as you can prove their association. Right? 

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:05:42] Exactly. They have to be in this particular enterprise. So whether it's organized crime, the Latin Kings, MS-13, however you want to use it, as long as it's an enterprise. And that's the beauty of what's happened today, the power — thanks to RICO, we're now able to provide these charges that are really outstanding. And they kind of fear — the criminals fear more the government than the bad guys. And a lot of that helps them make their decision as to whether they're going to cooperate or not. Because with us, you know, you're looking at 25, 30 years, it outweighs what, you know, the mob, what are they going to do for me? So they are more fearful of us than they are retribution because of the RICO statute.

[00:06:27] I mean, think about it. Are you willing to do 25 years in prison? And knowing that here, you are devoted to this secret society and your family is going to be on welfare. Unless, of course, you're enterprising enough to save money, put it aside, have it, of course, concealed or given to other people or hold for you, so you're able to survive. But a lot of these guys don't think like that. A lot of these guys are instant gratification. They get money, they blow it. They buy a car, they buy a house, they buy a boat to buy this. And there's no reserve. And the mob nowadays, it's kind of like once they get locked up, they start making a decision and saying, "You know what, maybe I should cooperate." Years ago, very few guys cooperated. I'm talking about the Joe Valachi era. I'm talking about some of those back in the old days. But now, as they say, you've got to slap these guys just to shut them up because they're all talking. They're all wanting to make a deal. Because, "Hey, you know what, the guy who talked."

[00:07:28] Now, that, of course, has changed so much and a lot of guys don't want to make deals or cooperate, nor do they even want to plead guilty in prison. If you plead guilty, as you know, as an attorney, your charges are going to be less because you don't have to go through the process of going to a trial.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:07:47] Right.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:07:48] The problem with that is when it comes to sentencing is the allocution that they would have to make that they belong to this enterprise, that they are members of organized crime, that they are a member of a particular family, the Gambino crime family. They can't do that. And the reason for that, it's because, under the guys, it is a secret criminal society. So by you admitting it, you're admitting it that it exists. So these guys don't want to take that plea. However, later on — and I'm talking about during the Gigante who was the boss of the Genovese family and others, they decided to say, "You know what, let's take the plea. And the reason we're going to take the plea is because I could be out in five or 10 years. I can go back to making money. I can go back to helping my family. But what am I going to do in jail for 25, 30 years?" So a lot of that has kind of become more mainstream.

[00:08:50] Now, you had a hard-headed like John Gotti. John Gotti always said, "I've been accused of stealing at church and I had a steeple sticking up my ass. Hey, you know, as far as I'm concerned, I'm not guilty. I didn't do it." Because these guys don't want to go to court and admit the fact that they are a member of this organized crime because those guys are the true Cosa Nostra guys.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:09:10] Now you worked in 45 investigations which, honestly, that sounds like a hell of a lot. Is that a lot for an undercover? That seems like a lot.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:09:18] Well, actually, after the book we sat down, I've done — my career was 24 out of 26 years and was solely dedicated to working undercover. So I worked over a hundred major investigations. The other ones, which I did were buy-bust and drugs and quick turnaround cases. I'm not even counted in that group. So what I meant by working major investigations, I'm talking about those that have funding. Those that require you to work a case, as opposed to doing quick buys on the street, doing dope buys, guns, whatever you may do out there. So, you know, it was my little niche that I found, Jordan. I didn't go into the FBI to become — although my motivation was watching Serpico, you know, Al Pacino. Back in the days, long hair, beard, he's living in the village. He has a sheepdog, a girlfriend, a motorcycle. That's what, just like you said, "This is what I want to do." And then, of course, I changed from there. I went down to Quantico. I wanted to become a regular G-man, and then here I am in the FBI. I found my niche and the reason for that was because, in the FBI, we got involved in narcotics in the early '80s. And because I'm a native Spanish speaker, I was able to transition to working dope. And because I'm a guy from the Bronx — you know, when I got into the FBI in 1980, it didn't really mirror the demographics of our society.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:10:47] Yeah, I would imagine, yeah.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:10:48] Everybody looked like an agent if you know what I mean.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:10:50] Yeah.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:10:50] And here I come from the Bronx and "Hey, how are you doing?" You know, that kind of thing. And I started working on the cover and that just grew and grew. You know, in hindsight, I looked at that — I loved every minute of it but in hindsight, what I did was fit for the Bureau, but it wasn't good for Jack Garcia.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:11:07] Yeah.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:11:07] You know it was just a lot of stress. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:11:09] Well, we'll get to that in a bit. I think it's kind of interesting that they've got somebody that would — "Look a guy who's not a Protestant white guy from Connecticut. We got to put him back with the criminals. He's the only one who can pass." Like that in itself is a little bit like, all right. Well, it shows you kind of what they were thinking back at that time. When you're in the FBI, as you were, how do you even get tapped to work undercover? Were they literally just like, "Oh, look, a Latino, we got to put him back in the mix because none of us can pass.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:11:35] Well, you know what? That's a great one. Keep in mind that undercover work is an investigative technique. It's similar to doing a wiretap as doing whatever. What it is, is an option to infiltrate a group that maybe to the help of an informant who could walk you in or you do want to stone-cold, meaning you spending a lot of time and energy and money trying to build your bona fides with the bad guys. The reason why, I guess, I was picked is because I spoke Spanish. I didn't look like an agent. I didn't dress like an agent. I didn't comport like an agent. So that was it. Yes, they came up to me and said, "Look, how would you like to do this undercover work? "They didn't ask the guy next to me who's sitting there with a three-piece suit and wingtip shoes. They asked me. Do you know what I'm saying?

[00:12:27] So keeping that in mind is yes, that happens a lot in the Bureau where you utilize minorities and also non-minority guys, but look, so we were addressing whatever the problem was. At that time, it was narcotics so only, of course, you had to be a Spanish speaker in order to infiltrate the group. You certainly couldn't be a guy — they are regular guys because that just makes it too hard. But I have seen situations where I'm doing the undercover and we needed other undercover guys to help and some of these people, agents and guys would say tap on to another Hispanic, just by virtue of that person being a Hispanic. But that person was like the Urkel of a Hispanics. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:13:13] Steve Urkel of Hispanics. 

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:13:14] I'm going, "Wait a minute. You can't use this guy. That'll be equivalent to me saying, 'Let's put all the white guys with the mobsters.'" You know being an undercover. It's a skill. It's something, not that you learn. It's something you're born with. Although we have this great FBI training and undercover school, you don't become an undercover by going to class, you got to be able to think quick on your feet. You have to be able to be comfortable around all types of people. You have to be quick-witted, unlikeable, and not fearful of it. And so not everybody fits into that criteria, but the main reason, I guess I was tapped because I did speak Spanish. They needed Spanish speakers.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:13:57] I know that your family escaped from Cuba and I'm wondering, okay, so that makes you a Spanish speaker that makes you somebody who probably can blend with other Latinos or people who ever had maybe a — should I say rough upbringing? I mean, you lived in the Bronx in the '70s and '80s, right?

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:14:14] Yeah, well, that's true. I came in here when I was nine years old from Cuba. Our family came with just our clothes on our back. Of course, I lived in the tough areas. I lived in Washington Heights. When we moved to the Bronx, we thought we hit the lottery. I mean, think about that? You're moving from Washington Heights to the Bronx and you think, "Wow, we made it."

Jordan Harbinger: [00:14:32] Yeah, moving on up.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:14:33] so I grew up in a tough neighborhood. I grew up in a neighborhood, whether you either became a cop or you would chase by one. There's no other option, you know? So of course, you know, that developed a lot of my forming of my personality, survival skills, how to get along, how to read people, body language, when danger is coming, when it's not dangerous. Say a lot of people who go to these undercover schools that we give, think that they — maybe they'll see the movie Donnie Brasco. They'll see some undercover movie and they'll say, "Well, I want to be that." No, that doesn't work that way, you're either born with this skill or you have no business doing this because you're either going to get hurt or get somebody else hurt.

[00:15:11] So it is something that I picked up in the streets of New York. That kind of formed my personality, that I was able to apply as an undercover. Just like I might have been good as an undercover agent, but I respect those agents who were good administrative agents. As you could go to court, file affidavit, file arrest warrant, search warrants, title III applications. I couldn't do that. This was my little niche. You know, there were guys who were a good bomb squad. I mean, picture that? You got guys working in a bomb squad. That's a bomb over there, you go defuse it. What are you nuts?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:15:49] Yeah. That's a different kind of — you need somebody who can keep their cool under a totally different kind of pressure to do that job.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:15:55] Exactly. And I respect that and that's what it is. You find your little niche and I was lucky to have found it very early on in my career and then I just rolled with it. And towards the end of my career, I've never had a case assigned to me. I was solely dedicated — I don't think any agent could claim that. That I was just the one who went undercover and I was bouncing from one case to the other, or some of them were simultaneous. Some of them were difficult, but that's all I did. I had a zero caseload but I was actively involved in five or six cases at one time. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:16:28] It kind of sounds like if you weren't working for the FBI, you just would have been a criminal that was really busy. 

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:16:34] Yeah. If I wasn't working for the FBI, I would have been investigated by the FBI.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:16:38] Yeah, exactly. Yeah. 

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:16:40] It's something that I felt very, very happy to do it. And also one of the beauties about the FBI. I mean, you have the amazing most men and women who are agents in the FBI. And I know lately, we're taking a hit, but hey, you know, let me assure you, Jordan, that's a cabal and itself that's taken the hit. That's not the overall agent. Men and women are hardworking. They're out there every day, busting their hump, trying to make cases, and keep it safe. And they're not involved in any of the politics around us. And that is a very important thing. So I always felt very comfortable with what I did. I felt uncomfortable watching me and that they want to make sure that I will come out of a meeting alive. Because at the end of the day, that's the most important thing. You want to be able to come out of your meeting without being whacked. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:17:27] You mentioned in the book that you use networking skills and positive charisma to generate rapport with people. So you would say — you said everyone loves a happy guy, which I thought was an interesting kind of technique because I think a lot of people don't think about using that kind of skill. They're thinking about other investigative techniques, but you actually focused on getting people to like and trust you. 

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:17:48] Well, I learned about human nature very early on. And I guess it was when I came from Cuba, I remember getting on the plane from Miami to New York, where we were going to live. I remember my father said, "Listen," he says, "Whatever happens if you bump into an American, you step on their shoes on an airplane, just say, 'I'm sorry.' They will be the most forgiving, appreciative people." So what I've learned, I think throughout my life, It's always when you go into meeting somebody, who's a stranger. Whether that person is a mobster, cartel leader, I'm going there with the attitude of being nice. I'm starting as a regular guy. I'm not going there with a chip on my shoulder. I'm not going there like a flaming asshole. Because you know what happens today? If you start up here really tough like you were a tough guy, then how are you going to go? You can't go down. Because first impressions are your most important impression. So I always wanted to start down here. If I needed to take it up, I could take it up.

[00:18:49] Well, my thing was, I treated people respect. I was jovial. I hung out with them. People gravitate to me because of my size. I mean, I'm 6'4", 390 pounds. And I'm a guy who is not — you know, like Luca Brasi who could say two words. I mean, I was like, you see me now, I'm outgoing, personable. I never had a problem with making friends. And I used that for me. I would always go in, not with that tough-guy attitude. And I've seen guys do, and you know what, that's ineffective because you don't want to do that. You want to disarm this person. You want this person to like you so they could tell you what you want to hear. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:19:31] Yeah.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:19:31] You don't want to have them put blocks. You want to become their buddies. So then all of a sudden they're confiding in you. "This is what we're going to do. This is what we did. I did this." And while all of that's going on, you're taping them. And that's the important thing, gathering evidence.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:19:48] You're listening to The Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest Joaquin "Jack" Garcia. We'll be right back.

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[00:21:59] And now back to Jack Garcia on The Jordan Harbinger Show.

[00:22:05] How do you know what to do and how to act? You mentioned you got it from the streets, but there's a bad guy code and you talk about this in the book. Like one thing was never to pay for drinks or food directly, just leave huge tips. And I can imagine trying that and having the waiter chase me down and be like, "Man, you didn't pay for your meal." And I'm like, "But I left a hundred dollars on the table." "Yeah. Well, you didn't pay the bill." 

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:22:26] Well, you know what? The poorest that we went to, we went to a lot of bar restaurants. Some of these guys were mob guys that owned it. I walked in to wait to see what the other guys I was meeting. I'm in the bar. There's a bar mate there, a good looking young lady. She's serving me. "What would you like?" Usually, my drink was, "Give me a Ketel one martini with 3 olives, a glass of water on the side." So I would get the glass. She wouldn't ask me how much. I finished the drink. The guys come in. I'm going to go, go in my pocket, take out that wad of money, that knot with a rubber band on it. Bam! Give her a hundred dollars. Well, she's not going to say, "Hey, you owe me $19.95 for a drink." Because even if I did that — $19.95 — she's still going to make 80 bucks on you.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:23:12] Right.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:23:13] But what she's going to do is she's going to tell the manager, "Hey, that guy is a great guy." She says, "He just gave me an $80 tip for a drink." So what you do is you establish the fact that you are making money. That you are a powerful guy. You know you don't go out with mobsters and say, "Hey, I had the soup and the sandwich. Here's $20." Or, you know, "Are you kidding me? I'm not going to pay for it. Let's split it in four ways." Can you imagine four gangsters sitting around going, "Let's split it up. I had the soap. You had the sandwich and french fries." Well, what about the tip? Everybody fights because, in the mob, it's all the make-believe. The more successful you are — it's every time you take that roll out and you've got that wad of money. That shows that you've been scammy. You've been doing some work. You're out there making — you're not a brokester. You're not as they used to say, a morte d'fam, you know, some deadbeat.

[00:24:08] So that is one of the things I wanted sometimes to pick up that check because it empowered me. Sometimes we get into bidding work that goes, "Hey, your money's no good here. What are you doing? You're embarrassing me over here." "What do you mean? You paid a lot." "Let me get this. Forget about it." "You pay for it." So you fight over it but one thing was for sure, if you were a captain and above, you had alligator arms. You never went into your pockets at all. These guys are so tight. They squeak with their alligator shoes. I bet these guys were. I'm telling you but we went out there and it was all about showing that you were successful before you went out, your car was clean. You had your nice alligator shoes. You had your manicure. You had your nice suit, your Brioni's, Zegna's, everything. You look like a million dollars but inside, they were thugs, they were criminals. They were sociopaths. And they go out there and they put on a big show and meanwhile, they're outside borrowing money from somebody and trying to scrape nickels and dimes. But you don't want to come off as that, as a guy who's a brokester. You always want to come up like, "Hey, I just landed a big deal." 

[00:25:21] And one other thing is if you're making money in the mob, money flows up. If you are somehow in the family, if you're on record with them as an associate, or even if you're a made guy, you have to kick up money up. Money always flows up. Never does a float down. I would do that occasionally. We give the impression when I was undercover with the mob that we gave the impression that I was out there, hustling, doing scams and all of that, but in reality, we were creating crimes. I will come back and say, "Listen," I said, "I just got my guys to score a couple of plasma television sets. Look, what do you think? I'm selling them for like a grand apiece." So, of course, we would put it in our budget of our undercover and buy televisions about 2,500 and sell it to them for a thousand as stolen merchandise. Now, what does that do? That shows that I'm an earner. I'm a guy who's making money.

[00:26:15] Then the same thing would watch us. We would go out there and we would get it from our forfeiture unit of all the white-collar criminals and every other person, all their jewelry and mink coats. You name it. All the high-valuable items and I would say we did a stickup down in Miami. I have my crew go out there, did some home invasions for some of these Cubans down in drug deals. And then I would say, "I'll give you a president watch. All I'm looking for is 5,000. Everything above that is yours." They could sell that watch at $7,000, $8,000 like this. So, of course, that showed not only that I'm kicking money up, but I'm giving them an opportunity to earn. So I made myself valuable and indisposable.

[00:26:58] If I would have gone in there and become a guy who had never a penny, never went into his wallet, never picked up a tab, never had a dime, never kicked up money, never gave tribute payments, I'd be on my ass. They throw me out. They would never allow me to hang out with them. That's just not the way it works in that life.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:27:16] There's a lot of funny little mafia tells, right? Like you mentioned the wad of cash with the rubber band around it.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:27:23] Yes.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:27:24] It's like a rubber band that you literally get from broccoli, which I thought was kind of funny. Like all of these rich guys have these vegetable rubber bands that they keep money wrapped in. And like you never asked for the menu. There are all these little things that you wrote about where I just thought, "What's that about?" Like, why don't you ever ask? You never ask what's on draft. You never asked for the menu. You always know what you want. Like this is like cultural stuff that you got to master.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:27:48] Cultural and out there in the streets if you've been a knock-around guy. You're a guy who's out there. You're not a guy who takes out a little leather wallet and he's going through change or he's doing that — okay, you don't do that. It's also, you're not the type of guy who will go in, weary. I would walk in a restaurant — oka, first of all, they see me coming, a big guy like me. They're happy. They're tripping over themselves just to take care of me. They know I'm this connected guy because I'm with the Gambino crime family. "Hey, come sit here, big Jack right here." The guy will come in and I said, "Get my drink," because by then they knew my drink or else they would bring it at the same time. And then what would happen is I would go, "Hey Tony, what am I eating today?" "Oh, I made a special. You got to try it. It is unbelievable. It's a good osso buco, nice off the bone." "Yeah, yeah," I said, "Bring it on." And then he said, "How about if I make a little something on the side? Do you like that?" "Yeah, bring that too. Bring it all out." Next thing you know, you're eating like a king. Do you know what I mean? But those are behavior things.

[00:28:55] One of the big adjustments for me was when I go out with my wife. And we go to a restaurant. I go in there with the reservation, which I never had. With a reservation, go in and they'll say, "I'm sorry. Your table's not ready. Mr. Garcia. You could sit by the bar and we'll let you know when it's ready."

Jordan Harbinger: [00:29:14] This is like civilian Jack Garcia out on a date with your wife. Whereas mafia Garcia is like, "Hey." 

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:29:20] "I made reservations. Do I look like an Indian to you?" I said, "Get me that table right now. What's wrong with you?" That's how you behaved in that world. It was wild. And now, you sit there and you're going, "Oh my God, is my table ready?" You feel like a schmo. In that world, they take care of these people as if they're celebrities. They want to hobnob with these people that are either outlaws or mobsters because they're either given somehow by association, respect or bring on fear. And that is so wrong. Why isn't the regular guy? Why aren't you and I going to be getting treatment and take those low lives and make them sit and wait outside? Because they don't want that. It's all about a show. It's fear. They're all big-time eaters and bring the wine, bring this, bring that. I just found that to be an adjustment to me, I hardly like, "Hey guys, I was a special agent at the FBI. I got to sit out here for an hour and you see these schmoes coming in there before me. Who are they? They don't even have a reservation."

Jordan Harbinger: [00:30:26] You don't exactly look like a cop at almost 400 pounds you mentioned. And you have this mafia image. You said like you're an earner like you're scamming, but I know you were also — is it posing as a money launderer, or is that kind of part of that whole thing? Or is that just one of many various things, occupations?

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:30:44] Yeah, there were many. Jordan, I've done everything. I mean, I have posed as a money launderer. I've worked as a drug dealer. I have worked as a transporter for drug dealers. I worked as a warehouse guy. I've been a gangster. I've been involved in cases that deal with police corruption, political corruption, Asian organized crime, Russian organized crime, and the whole gamut. There are different hats that you play and there are different ways of how to play them. An example of that is when you're out there with the drug dealers or the dirty cops or whatever, you don't owe them any explanation as to where you're at or why didn't I call you back right away when you called. I don't have to explain that to you because that's a circle world that you don't.

[00:31:33] In the mob thing, there is deference there, there is respect. I remember the first time when I was in tight with Greg DePalma and he called me, we had those Nec telephones. Remember those, Jordan?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:31:46] Yeah.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:31:47] The radio — and I hear him going, "Hey, Jackie boy, pick up the phone." I didn't want to pick up the phone. I'm in Miami working another case. I let it go. The next day when I fly back, I see him. He goes, "Where were you yesterday?" I said, "I told you I was going down to Miami." He said, "Why don't you pick up the phone?" I said, "Because I was busy." He said, "You were busy? You can't be busy? In this life, when I call you, you answer. And the reason for that is how do I know you were not arrested. How do I know you're not with the cops? How do you know you're not working right now for the cop? I need you to be available 24/7, 365." And he would do that. I would get calls from him all hours of the night, two o'clock in the morning. He would say, "Jackie boy, I'm watching Rio Bravo on TV. He used to love the old Western. "Oh, it's great. Put it on and turn the channel." He wasn't calling me to tell me to put it on. He was calling me to see if I'm around. Then I go back with the other guys on the crew and he says, "Yeah, Greg called me up yesterday at three in the morning. I don't know. He was talking about something in the morning that he had to do. It's all because they learned from their previous arrests. They learned about things that they have done and they morphed themselves. Into a life to keep that from happening.

[00:33:05] Now, if you did that to me, if you're a drug dealer and you said to me, "I call you, you call me back." You know where I'm going to tell you to go. I don't owe you an explanation, dude. "Hey, we're here doing business. That's the end of that? You don't need to know. What are you a cop?" The mob, a whole different animal. I remember that Greg DePalma, one time I waited for him — 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:33:26] Greg DePalma is like a boss or something?

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:33:29] Yeah. Greg DePalma was a captain in the Gambino crime family. I was in his crew. I was his driver. Very early on, okay, he tells me, "Meet me in such and such a place." I was late for something. I get there and he looks at me and he gets in a car and he takes off and he says, before he takes off, "You wait here for me." Now, I'm sitting out there. It's a hot day. God knows surveillance all over the place. He comes back about three hours later, he says, "How does it feel?" I said, "What do you mean? How's it feel?" He said, "Don't you ever do that to me again? If I tell you to be here at one o'clock, you're here at one o'clock. Do you understand me?" You got a boss, that's it.

It's different rules. You know, yet when I worked dope and I was dealing with Colombians and Dominicans and Cubans and all of that. You say one o'clock, you end up 7:30 at night. That's just cultural. That's also the fact that things are different. And the other thing about Greg was that I learned this — this is what other guys told me. Greg DePalma could be a beautiful sunny day. If Greg DePalma calls you up and he says, "Hey, Jack, I want you to come to pick me up but bring the umbrella because it's going to rain." And you look at that sky and there's not a cloud in the sky. When you see Greg DePalma, you better bring that umbrella. And you know why? Because it's going to rain because Greg said it was going to rain and you don't question. It's that blinded — 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:34:58] Obedience.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:34:59] — obedience. Exactly. And that's what went on, Jordan, which was really amazing compared to all the criminal groups that I've worked and I've done like I said, so many of them, including bikers and every — nobody plays by those rules. It really is an amazing culture, that whole mob world, but listen, there are also so many fake things that the whole mob is. A lot of it is show, yeah, they don't work drugs yet. Everybody's been locked up for drugs. Just the list goes on and on.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:35:30] This is The Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest Jack Garcia. We'll be right back.

[00:35:35] This episode is sponsored in part by Ebb Sleep CoolDrift. It's no surprise that current events might be contributing to a little more stress, a little bit of sleep deprivation. I don't know if you maybe had a baby and they're screaming and your air conditioning broke. Like we did the other night. Ebb Sleep CoolDrift can help. If you have trouble falling asleep, if you wake up, you feel like you've hardly slept. Essentially this device — this is so interesting, some of the science behind this — it cools down a specific part of your head and brain. And I know that sounds ridiculous, but I've been using this thing and I've been conking out now. You got to make sure that you're looking at the science yourself. I always recommend that. I used it last night because again, my AC went out and I got to tell you, it was way more comfortable than I would have been because this thing cools you down in the right way and you can throw a blanket on, you're not going to be cold. The new one is Ebb Sleep CoolDrift. It's actually portable. It's lightweight. You can throw it in your suitcase. You can bring it to your in-law's house, which is where essentially we're living half the time. And we all know that we need to maintain good sleep because that is critical to our physical and mental health and our performance. So if your sleep isn't as good as you'd like it to be try the Ebb Sleep. They got a great guarantee. Jen. 

Jen Harbinger: [00:36:43] Just for our listeners, you can save $25 off of your order by going to tryebb.com/jordan and using promo code JORDAN at checkout. That's $25 off of your order, and you can try it risk-free for 60 nights. That's try-E-B-B.com/jordan, tryebb.com/jordan and use promo code JORDAN to save $25 today. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:37:06] This episode is also sponsored by Cadence13, a new podcast, The Boardroom: Out of Office. This is a new podcast from Rich Kleiman, who is the co-founder of Thirty-Five Ventures alongside his business partner, Kevin Durant. On Out of Office, New York City native and entrepreneurial Kleiman will give you an all-access pass to some of the greatest minds in sports, business, entertainment, and tech. As guests share how their personal experiences have helped shape their careers. Kleiman will also explore the experiences, the people, and the stories of how big ideas come to life. The conversations that occur outside of the office where the real business gets done. You can listen and subscribe to The Boardroom: Out of Office on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your shows. That's The Boardroom: Out of Office with Rich Kleiman.

[00:37:47] Thanks for listening and supporting the show. Your support sort of our advertisers keeps us going. I know I say that a lot but I do mean it. To learn more and to get links to all the great discounts you heard, check out the deals for yourself and support the show, go to jordanharbinger.com/deals. We've also got a worksheet for today's episode. The link is in the show notes at jordanharbinger.com/podcast.

[00:38:08] And now back to Jack Garcia On The Jordan Harbinger Show.

[00:38:13] You became an undercover in the Italian Gambino family. This is an Italian family, but you're Cuban. So did you straight up say, "All right, I'm Cuban, but I'm going to be Italian." Or were you like, "I'm Italian now"? I mean, how does that work? 

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:38:24] Wait, I'm not?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:38:26] Yeah, I don't know. I'm not going to argue with this.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:38:28] Do you remember George Costanza? He goes, "I'm not an architect. What do you mean? I'm not?" What happened was the guy who was running the case, Nat Parisi, a great agent, he's Italian himself. And I did a couple of cases for him, drug cases. So he calls me up and he says, "Listen, we got this situation in the strip club and are being shaken down by some Albanians. And, you know, possibly the mob is involved. We want you to get it. We're looking for a guy like you. We now think that you could do the job." And I said, "Oh, you have me at a strip club. Okay, so I'm in this thing." So then he said, "Well, look, we want to have you pass you off as an Italian." I go, "I can't pass off as an Italian because I've never thought that." As far as my parents only spoke Spanish, I grew up in a home speaking Spanish. I eat rice and beans, Moros, and plantains, everything. And I said, "Well, I don't know if I could pull this." He goes, "Yeah, you could pull it." He said, "Well, either going to have you as being half-and-half where your father would be or mother would be Italian and your other parent is going to be Cuban or we'll take another chance of making you totally Italian."

[00:39:42] So I went into this thing and I'm going, "All right, so I could explain being Cuban and Italian in case it comes up." Literally, within the second meeting, the guy goes, "Hey, are you Italian? What part of Italy are you from?" So I went with it. I say, "I'm from Sicily. He says, "Oh, yeah, you were CG. Okay, yeah, great." Nobody ever questioned who I was. Subsequently, when the case got taken down, these bad guys, all over the place would call me to this pet. "How did this pet ever get in?" But you know what it is? I was well prepared. The agent being Italian explained to me the different types of food. How to pronounce those foods?

[00:40:21] So you don't go in there and say, "Yeah, I'll have some bra-ci-o-le." And he goes, "Bra-ci-o-le? It's bra-ci-ole." And how to eat and order certain, just like in the TV show, The Office. Do you remember? "Do you have any gabagool?" Gabagool — do you remember that scene? Well, that's kind of — you learn how to say it because we set up this whole identification of making me a third-generation Sicilian who grew up in Miami, among the Cubans. And we had all of my friends, so-called friends with drug dope dealers. I was in the drug trade and even had myself prepared by having informants that I had in Miami in the event that maybe somebody doubted who I was. These guys would vouch for me but I even took it the next step over. When I was done in Miami, I created that I looked at all the various cemeteries and looked for a Mr. and Mrs. Falcone and I found them. So they would have been my parents. And why did I do that? Because of the fact that they are so distrustful, the last thing I needed, Jordan, is them being down in Miami with me and the guy innocently says, "Hey, big Jack, I know you're from here. I know you lost your parents early on. Before we go to dinner, just go pay our respects to your parents. That'd be nice. Don't you think?" And what are you going to do next? 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:41:44] Yeah. Walk around the cemetery for three hours, looking for people with the right name.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:41:48] Yeah, or else like, "I don't know where they are." Do you know what I'm saying?" So I had it, I had it all lined up. The only fear I had maybe would have gotten some flowers when I got there and the sons, the offsprings, are the real Falcones where there and they go, "Who the hell are you?"

Jordan Harbinger: [00:42:01] Yeah.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:42:01] You know? 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:42:02] Yeah.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:42:02] But that of course never — 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:42:04] What are the odds of that?

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:42:05] Yeah, exactly. That never happened. But you have to deal not like you do with the other groups, like the drug dealers and all of that. That stuff, they don't get into your personal life. They did — I actually had early on in the investigation, the old man came up to me because how would you like to get some union benefits? So I joined the union. Okay. That had — 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:42:27] Like a construction worker union?

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:42:29] It was a restaurant type union, server union. I think it was local 305. It had eyeglasses, dental, all medical, retirement. Okay, their benefits were better than the FBI benefits. That's how good they were and what I was into when I was paying for that, with that, because that's what they care about and I had to fill out a form. Now, after I filled it out. What if they came back? And he goes, "Jackie boy, you know we got to be careful. So I checked you out. You're cool. You're fine." But I guarantee you, they took the date of birth. I took the social, all of the stuff that they did was checking me out and they have to do that for fear infiltration — 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:43:15] Sure.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:43:16] — informants because of my role. How I came into be in this case was we had an informant who was well-liked and respected by these guys. He brought me in as an investor, as a friend of the club that he owned a strip club. So I came out of nowhere. It was just like in the mob is kind of like in Goodfellas when the little kid opens the door wearing a suit, he goes, "As long as I can refer back, as I can remember, I always wanted to be a gangster." So it's one of those situations that I did. And I wanted to be careful. I want to make sure my I's were dotted. I wanted to make sure my T's were crossed. Because the last thing I needed to do is make one mistake and it'd be a fatal one.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:44:01] Sure. I mean, I understand playing an Italian for Asian gangsters, Russian gangsters, and playing Cuban for Italians, but playing it Italian for Italians, that's — you are just right on the line. You say ma-re-na-ra instead of ma-ri-ne-ra or whatever, it's over.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:44:16] Right. But see, I had that covered. Not only because I went to the training that I had beforehand, but also I thought like you that in the mob, yes, there were Italian. You have to be Italian to be proposed for membership. The associates could be any kind, women or whatever, but I was kind of careful of bringing out too much, but the Italian part, I felt I did it because all of these guys didn't speak Italian. These were Americanized guys. This is a whole generation. Keep in mind. The mob started — when — in the '30s. So a lot of these guys are either old-timers, which were few and dying off, and then these were the sons or other new guys. So you see what I'm saying? I wasn't going there and sitting at a bunch of guys who were taught. I've never recalled in my almost three years anybody talking Italian at any mob meeting whatsoever. They were Americanized. There were Italian, but they were Americanized. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:45:17] So that makes sense and especially, I would imagine, you know, your Cuban accent is covered if you're from Cuba, not a lot of people maybe know about it, but if you were Mexican, people could backstop you more easily. Right? Because they can just put people down there. They've got roots down there but did you find that Cuba itself had less ties to organized crime because Castro kind of put a hard stop between everything when that regime changed? 

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:45:40] Well, first of all, I never told these guys I was Cuban.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:45:43] Sure.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:45:43] As far as they're concerned, I was born in the US. But as far as the Cuba thing was concerned is — just remember Cuba before Castro was run by corruption and by the mob. So Castro came in with the, that he was going to free and liberate Cuba from the mob and corruption. And then in turn, he went to bed ride with the Russian. So mobsters wise, as far as they're concerned I never told him that I was Cuban, but I did tell them I grew up in Miami as you know, which is predominantly Cuban and there, I grew up with the Cubans. So I picked up a couple of words here and there. Because down there, there's actual signs in Miami that say we speak English. So it's foreseeable. I maybe had a little accent because I was around. I told them my girlfriend and my wife is Cuban. You know, all of that stuff. So it was kind of a believable — 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:46:32] Sure.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:46:32] — with that and listen, no one suspected it. And like I said too much, later on, it came out that they were kind of disappointed. And I guess that was the big slap in the face to the mob. The fact that an FBI agent and a Cuban-born FBI agent was able to infiltrate them and was going to be proposed for membership. I mean, that's a direct slap in the face. I mean, if you look at Joe Pistone and Donnie Brasco, he's Italian but, you know, I'm not and yet I didn't find that to be — nobody ever said to me, "Hey, are you Cuban? So what are you? You're not Italian." You know no one said that to me. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:47:10] Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. I know you got in with the boss. Of course, you become an associate. Did they give you a diamond pinky ring? Is that a part of this? Either you gave one or you got one. I can't remember now.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:47:22] I got one. It was a pinky ring. It was the most gorgeous ring. It had some diamonds in it. The captain, when he put me — basically what they first do is they put you on record and that just means that, "Hey, I own you."

Jordan Harbinger: [00:47:34] Okay.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:47:35] That's what it means. Like, for instance, if you own a restaurant or right now, your show, if you are with the mob, I say, "Hey Jordan, you're on record with us." That means we protect you. Nobody could shake it down, but yeah, we can shake you down but you're on record with us. So I got put on record with the Gambino crime family, and he gave me this ring, which was the gorgeous thing I've ever seen in my life. I wore it in my pocket but when I saw your man, I put it on, it was the ring — but anyway that was the introduction. Not everybody does that. I mean, that's just what he did with me. And then after that, what happens is after you prove yourself, some guys are associates for years and years and never, ever get proposed.

[00:48:22] What happened much later on, he felt I've met the requirements of what it is to be a wise guy. And that's the guy who keeps his mouth shut. The guy who makes money and kicks the money up. The guy who could do time and a guy who's capable of violence. All of those are the things that require you to get straightened out. He came to me and he said, "I'm going to get you proposed." And he asked me, "Are you involved in any drug traffic?" I said, "Greg, you know, I was—" Greg goes, "I don't care about what you did. You can't be involved in any drug traffic at least for the last five years, any issues with it." I said, "No, no, no problem."

Jordan Harbinger: [00:49:02] Why is that again?

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:49:03] Well, what they have a rule, at least it was with the Gambinos that if you're a drug dealer or were drug dealers you couldn't have been for the last five years and that's because of the statute of limitations. They don't want you to get collared on a drug cape you did three years ago and maybe have that be influenced the flipping you.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:49:25] Ah.

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:49:26] But that's the irony of that is it's a lie because there were many guys who were drug dealers. And as long as they hand the envelope, what they do is they totally block it out of their heads. They don't go and say, "What did you get this money? How did you get this? Did you do it?" They'll accept whatever money and if something — if you can, you're on your own. So that was his first priority. And then he says that they were going to put my name on the list, which he did. And that list is passed around to all the family. And that says Jack — and the list, the way it works, you list a person and the year that they die.

[00:50:05] So let's say Joey Bag o' Donuts. He died in 1998. So now I'm going to be replacing Joey Bag o' Donuts because there are certain numbers that they are allowed to have, and that list is spread. The reason they spread that list. They want to say, "Do you know anything about this guy? Is this guy a pervert? Is this guy previously on record with another family? Is this guy a rat?" Anything that — once you clear that obstacle, you then get put in to like, okay, you're going to get straightened out. And then that day will come. And the day all the family bosses are there, the captains. You're in separate rooms with everybody else. Get made. You go down individually, they cut your finger, blood drips into a saint — a religious mass card. You light it on fire and you say, "May I burn in hell like this saint if I betray my family," and you take this oath of Omertà which is the vow of silence.

[00:51:05] So that's the process. I only made it to my list going around, the reason being things were put on hold, because Joe Massino, who was the boss of the Bonanno's decided to cooperate. So things kind of froze and also a decision made by the FBI, which I viewed as very shortsighted. And they pulled the operation because they felt we had enough mobsters and they didn't really want to devote the continuation of the case, which you know, myself and the United States attorneys and the other guys working in the case were fighting that battle but we lost and, of course, we took the case down. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:51:47] Yeah, I know they took the case down and we can talk a little bit more about that in a bit. I am curious though, what is the list on? I assume they're not using Google docs or Microsoft Word. I mean, where do they keep the list? What's the list? Is it an actual document?

Joaquín "Jack" García: [00:52:00] Yeah, it's an actual paper document with the names. In fact, a list was found in John Gotti Jr. and along with the money, they seized hidden somewhere like in the basement or something. So that's what the list is. You see it. The  boss or the street boss goes around and tells everybody, "Hey, do you know this guy?" They think about straightening him out and then, of course, they get rid of him. Every once in a while these lists, or if you even Google mafia list, you'll see the list that was found, I believe, in John Gotti Jr.'s home. That listed about seven or eight names. My name is not on there because this is pre-me, but that's how the list works.

[00:52:40] They have their own system in place because they don't want to have any insults, but usually it's a rubber stamp because by then they should know what kind of guy you are. And by being on record means that you could have been working with the Lucchese crime family, and then you left for whatever reason. And then you're now with the Gambinos. You need to answer that. "Why did you come here? Why didn't you tell us that?" And then there could be a situation where the Lucchese's if they evaluate you as being a guy who made a lot of money, they may claim you and say, "Well. you're not going to be one of those. You could be one of us." So that's how it works

Jordan Harbinger: [00:53:20] As we reach 400 episodes of the show and well, over a decade of podcasting, I keep thinking about which have been some of my favorite episodes in which you'll enjoy the most that you might've missed. Stick around for the end of the show to hear my final thoughts on this episode with Jack Garcia. But before I get into that, here's what you should check out next on The Jordan Harbinger Show.

Ken Perenyi: [00:53:39] He gave me a book on art forgery. I found myself drawn to these old masters. How did these artists take paint from a pallet? Arrange it on a canvas. I began to unlock the secrets. I was a storehouse of knowledge of how to create an illusion. Present it to an experienced expert, manipulate his mind, and convince him and bring him to the inevitable conclusion that the painting is genuine.

[00:54:19] We flooded the market with my paintings and I couldn't believe what I did. I couldn't believe it. Then the dominoes started falling and eventually the FBI was led to my door. They uncovered a mountain of evidence against me.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:54:36] But they never actually got you. At this point, you sold a lot. You've got like a million dollars in cash. You sold one painting for 717,000. Why did it go away? Why did you never get indicted? And how are we having this conversation?

Ken Perenyi: [00:54:54] I guess that's the greatest story of all.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:54:57] To hear how Ken Perenyi made millions in art forgery, dodged the mafia and the FBI, subscribe to The Jordan Harbinger Show and check out episode 282 in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now.

[00:55:13] Now I really love this episode with Joaquin Garcia. This is the end of part one. We've actually got a lot more coming in part two. This guy's got stories for days, and he was a fun conversation. As you can tell, this guy was a fun conversation and I'm excited for part two. So stay tuned for part two coming up right here on The Jordan Harbinger Show.

[00:55:30] Links to Joaquin's book will be linked in the show notes. If you do buy books from any guests on the show, please do use our website links. It helps support the show. Worksheets for this episode in the show notes, transcripts in the show notes. And there's a video of this interview on our YouTube channel at jordanharbinger.com/youtube. I'm at @JordanHarbinger on both Twitter and Instagram, or just hit me on LinkedIn.

[00:55:52] I'm teaching you how to connect with great people and manage relationships using systems using tiny habits over at our Six-Minute Networking course, which is free over at jordanharbinger.com/course. Dig that well before you get thirsty. Most of the guests on the show, they subscribe to the course in the newsletter. Come join us, you'll be in smart company. Get those people's skills like Jack Garcia.

[00:56:12] This show is created in association with PodcastOne and my amazing team, including Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for this show, this free show, is that you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting. So if you know somebody who's interested in the mafia, the FBI, undercover work, maybe even just the people skills involved or a great story, share this episode with them. Hopefully, you find something great in every episode. Please do share the show with those you care about. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show, so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time.