Kevin Barrows is a former FBI special agent who now conducts traditional corporate fraud investigations, reputation risk and due diligence efforts, and supervises computer forensic and computer crime assignments for Renaissance Associates.
What We Discuss with Kevin Barrows:
- Why conducting a successful interview is an art that requires establishing credibility, understanding motivation, employing psychology, assessing body language, and listening.
- Why approaching a witness at an inconvenient time, in the wrong place, or in the wrong way can ruin an interview before it gets started.
- How to quickly identify the motivation of the person being interviewed.
- How to make the truth the only option for the person being interviewed.
- How to create and execute a game plan to get to that truth — whether it’s with our spouse, our kids, or our colleagues and employees.
- And much more…
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I recently took a few courses from expert interrogators and became fascinated with the idea that there are some people who are so good with questions that we as a society rely on their skills to solve crimes, prevent catastrophes, and get to the truth in a lot of very important, often life-or-death situations.
On this episode, former FBI special agent Kevin Barrows teaches us the fundamentals of interrogation. He’s a fraud investigator who focuses on large-scale money laundering and internal investigations for major financial institutions and white-collar crime, and what he shares with us here applies as much to those investigations as it does to parenting or managing a business. Listen, learn, and enjoy!
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More About This Show
As Kevin Barrows, former FBI special agent now lending his investigative and interrogative — though he might prefer the less negatively associated term “interviewing” — skills knows, conducting a successful interview is an art. It requires establishing credibility, understanding motivation, employing psychology, assessing body language, and listening.
Whether the interviewee is an employee suspected of embezzling thousands of dollars from your company or your first grader trying to wiggle out of admitting their part in The Great Cookie Robbery of 2019, the goal is to make the truth the only option for the interviewee.
A big part of ensuring this outcome is knowing the optimal time, place, and manner of preparing for the interview. Sometimes this involves a show of force that leaves the interviewee no choice in when, where, and how the interview will take place, but most of the time you want to make it seem that the circumstances are aligning to the benefit of the person being interviewed so they’ll agree to be questioned without resistance.
Approaching a witness at an inconvenient time, or the wrong place, or in the wrong way can ruin an interview before it gets started. Careful consideration to many factors must be given to when to approach a witness (day, night, before or after dinner, weekend, etc.), whether to approach the witness at home, work, or school and how to initiate and introduce who you are and the purpose of the interview.
“Time, place, and manner is simply thinking of those things that other people don’t think of,” says Kevin. “When is the right time to go speak with this person? How should I approach this person — how are they most receptive?”
Having a game plan going into the discussion is crucial. You want to pick the right time of day, when the mood is right and there’s less of a chance that anger or hostility will be expressed.
Like the old saying goes, “You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.” Angry and accusatory questioning breeds the same response, but understanding the motivation of the person being questioned and framing your questions in the context of this motivation will get you much better results.
For example, if it’s an employee who has a desire to be respected, it would be wise to speak positively about the quality of the employee’s work, dedication, competency, and dependability. If you’re dealing with a juvenile susceptible to peer pressure, it may be beneficial to be sympathetic. Say something like, “I understand the pressures and difficulties of being a teenager, and I had a similar experience…”
“I like to learn as much information through public records and social media about a person, try to get a vibe for who they are,” says Kevin. “And then from there, I say this might be the best time to approach this person. It’s a calculated risk. I know if they have kids, or I know if they’ve got an active social life they’ll be out late on Friday night — so let’s not go Saturday morning, because they’re going to be hung over. Those kinds of things, atmospherically, timing, you can determine in advance based upon their lifestyle.”
Establishing credibility with the interviewee is imperative. The person being questioned will constantly be evaluating you to determine if you’re worthy of receiving the truth. They’ll be trying to figure out of you really care about their situation. They want to believe that you understand who they are, that you appreciate their perspective, and that you’re on their side. If they read that you’re being disingenuous rather than sympathetic, it could mean the difference between a successful and an unsuccessful interview.
Listen to this episode in its entirety to learn more about how to gather information about someone before you interview them, how to use that information to generate rapport with the interviewee, what spells the difference between respect that will make for a successful interview and disdain that breaks it, ways to guide an interviewee toward the understanding it’s in their best interests to tell you the truth, the surprising confessions that can be brought out by simply asking “If you were me, what would you think?” and much more.
THANKS, KEVIN BARROWS!
And if you want us to answer your questions on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at firstname.lastname@example.org.
Resources from This Episode:
- Renaissance Associates
- Born to Steal: When the Mafia Hit Wall Street by Gary Weiss
- Will Benedetto at In Good Company
- The Boogie Room at the Mondrian Park Avenue, New York
Transcript for Kevin Barrows | Think Like an FBI Interrogator (Episode 166)
Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with my producer, Jason DeFillippo. I recently took a few courses from expert interrogators and became fascinated with the idea that there are some people who are so good with questions that we, as a society, rely on their skills to solve crimes, prevent catastrophes, and get to the truth and a lot of very important, often life or death situations. Today on the show, former FBI investigator Kevin Barrows is teaching us the fundamentals of interrogation. He's now a fraud investigator who focuses on large scale money laundering and internal investigations for major financial institutions and white collar crime. And what he's teaching us today applies as much to those investigations as it does to parenting or managing a business. Today, we'll learn why conducting a successful interview is an art. It requires establishing credibility, understanding motivation. It employs psychology, assesses body language, listening skills.
[00:00:56] The goal is to make the truth the only option for the interviewee. We'll learn how to create and execute a game plan to get to that truth, whether it's with our kids, our colleagues and employees, or even our spouse. If you want to know how I managed to book all these interesting people for the show and manage relationships with hundreds of thousands of people, I use systems and I use tiny habits and I'm teaching you those systems and tiny habits in our Six-Minute Networking course, which is free. It replaces Level One, if you are in that, it's updated. I got some new stuff in there and it's on a new server, a new site, that's over at JordanHarbinger.com/course. All right, here's Kevin Barrows. Thanks for coming on the show by the way. I've really appreciated the prep, really in depth, which I love. One thing that I love about what I have been seeing here is that conducting a successful interview is an art. I think a lot of people look at interrogation interviewing is one, two separate things and two, okay, there's a formula where if your foot's bouncing, you're lying. And then none of this stuff is as simple as it seems.
Kevin Barrows: [00:01:59] 100%. You know, I don't ever talk in terms of interrogation. I mean that's kind of an old school, detective, you know, white loop, hot light. It's an interview and the question is simply, you know, how do you approach that process? And it is a process. There is an art to it. Everybody's got a different style, different technique. But the key to the whole thing really is setting it up properly. And a lot of people just don't particularly give much attention to, you know, setting up the interview.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:02:28] We'll get to that because I want to hear about how you set this up because before anything else, the right approach seems to be the key, but there's a lot of establishing credibility, understanding the motivation behind it. Of course, there's the body language and the listening part that most people like to zoom in on and ignore everything else. I like the idea that the only option for the interviewee then becomes the truth. It's almost like you're trying to channel them in a direction, not yank them in a direction.
Kevin Barrows: [00:02:52] Very, very true.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:02:53] And that is something that I hadn't thought of before. The other idea here that I would love to introduce later in the show is talking to kids to get them to tell you the truth seems to be very similar to getting someone to admit that they're embezzling from their own company.
Kevin Barrows: [00:03:08] No question. And kids are very smart, you know, and they're prepared and you have to be good. Yep, be good.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:03:15] That was surprising because you think, kids just going to go, “Did you really do it to me?” And they're going to go, “Fine.” But that's not really the case.
Kevin Barrows: [00:03:23] It is not the case. I mean, everyone -- kids, people, they will give you as much as they think you know, that's the bottom line.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:03:29] As much as they think you know. Okay. All right. Let's start from the beginning. The right approach is the key. No surprise here, but time, place and manner. What role are these playing here?
Kevin Barrows: [00:03:40] It really begins with giving yourself the best opportunity to be a successful interviewer. And there's no guarantee of course, but the best opportunity and time, place, and manner is simply thinking of those things that other people don't think of. Like when is the right time to go speak with this person? How should I approach this person was how are they going to be most receptive? Or maybe an example, if it's a businessman, you may say, “Look, I can go see them at the office. I can try to see them in the morning before the office, but they're going to say, likely, ‘Well, I have to get to work.’ So that might not be the best time.” So now you consider, “Well, maybe at night.” Well, if they have kids and a wife, they might eat. You don't want to do it at six o'clock. Maybe we go and sit outside the office, call and say, “Hey, as a courtesy, we're not going to come into your place of business. Why don't you come out and talk with us?” So people are receptive, “Hey, you've done a courtesy for me. I'm going to come downstairs now and talk to you because you've done the right thing by me.”
Jordan Harbinger: [00:04:31] So when you see an FBI arrest or something like that and they're making a big deal out of it, it's like a show where there's 12 officers and they're all heavily armed and they walk into the guy's office in the middle of the Monday rush. That's also deliberate, right? That's like, “We want everyone to see that we're doing our job here.”
Kevin Barrows: [00:04:52] No question, there's times when that might be necessary. If there's any element of danger, any concern for safety, that's always going to be the case. But yes, at times, you know, and again, it really depends on the situation, but at times that's warranted. You want to show force, right? You want to make this person know and people with whom they work. “No. Hey, we're coming in force for everybody”, at some point, right?
Jordan Harbinger: [00:05:16] Like, “We're taking out your boss. And he doesn't stand a chance. So what chances do you, Mr. Mailroom, who's seen all the evidence? We're going to talk.” That's interesting. I hadn't thought about that. I thought it was more like for the news cameras. I'm sure there's an element of that too. Yeah. So approaching somebody at an appropriate time can probably go a long way. I would imagine, even if I'm guilty as sin, I don't want to be handcuffed in front of my kids. I don't want to look like a jerk in front of my employees. And so there's an element of reciprocity at play here.
Kevin Barrows: [00:05:45] Absolutely. 100%. I mean, you go into it and with an open mind, typically this protocol is to handcuff somebody always for safety. But if it's called for in a situation, you think it's going to give you some leverage or an opportunity to speak with this person down the road, then you extend him a courtesy and perhaps don't handcuff in front of his family or friends.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:06:05] So you always handcuffed them, but maybe you don't do it right then and there. You say like, “We'll do it before we get in the car.”
Kevin Barrows: [00:06:10] Right, or just when we get in the car. So we don't, you know, in front of your neighbors, you know, have that display.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:06:17] Yeah. That's because you see that on TV, right? Is this really necessary? And they're like, “Oh, come on. It's Mr. Harper. It’s fine. You don't have to cuff him. It's the governor or something.”
Kevin Barrows: [00:06:26] Yeah. It's really usually. They usually handcuff, but there are situations where somebody will ask and you get that sense that, “Hey, if you don't handcuff me, do this”, you know, courtesy for them. They're going to extend you a courtesy.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:06:37] Yeah. And of course, the thought that's probably unspoken is, “So if this happens again and I'm not cooperative this time, then they're going to make a big deal out of cuffing me in front of everybody next time to teach me a lesson. So maybe I'll play ball here.”
Kevin Barrows: [00:06:51] Yeah. It’s a one-time opportunity.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:06:53] Yeah, I liked that. Yeah. I think there's probably something to that, obviously. In your opinion, would it just ruin the interview before you get started by sort of mistreating somebody or playing the wrong note?
Kevin Barrows: [00:07:06] 100%. I mean, you really can, it doesn't even have to be a big gap, a big mistake, but I think that if you say a few wrong words, you don't establish some degree of credibility right away. Person [indiscernible] says, “Well, you're not worthy of me telling you the truth.” I mean, I think there's that process. I'm not saying it's always conscious, but you say, “Hey, I'm being disrespected here. You don't know anything about me, so why should I talk to you?”
Jordan Harbinger: [00:07:32] And you got to come up with this game plan. How do you come up with the right approach? Like how do you know, “Jordan doesn't want to be handcuffed?” Well, that might be common sense, but this guy doesn't want to be handcuffed in front of his friends, or this person needs to be treated in a certain way, you know? How do you create the game plan going into it? You obviously have to know something about them beforehand.
Kevin Barrows: [00:07:51] Yes. I mean, some of those things you learn when you begin to speak with so many, a lot of that you kind of make an evaluation or determination within the first couple of minutes. Some things can be set up in advance. Like I like to learn as much information through public records, social media about a person, tried to get a vibe for who they are. And then from there I say, “Well, this might be the best time to approach this person.” Right? It's a calculated risk. I know they have kids or I know they don't. I know he's got an active social life. He's going to be out late on Friday nights. Let's not go Saturday morning, right? Because they're going to be hung over. So those kinds of things atmospherically timing, you can sort of determine in advance based upon their lifestyle, you know, to the best you can determine at.
[00:08:31] And then it's a matter of setting up, you know, how do I want to approach this person? The approach is incredibly important. I sit down with you and I am accusatory right away. What happens? Well, you're going to get defensive right away. That's just the way it is in life with people. So how do I approach you? How do I introduce myself? What are you going to be the most receptive to? That's something that you sort of have to make a judgment call on, but you want to set that in advance, as best as you can.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:08:55] Okay. Yeah. So, of course I don't want to be like, “We know you took the money. Like you've been embezzling for 20 freaking years,” right? So obviously we want to avoid that kind of thing which is funny because of course you see that on TV too. Like, “Oh, I'm going to turn my chair around or whatever kind of yeah, like cop show BS.” Knowing the person gives you that advantage or knowing a little bit about the person, do you research them or is this something you come up with based on previous arrests? Like, what if the person is a corporate executive, and there's no record on this guy?
Kevin Barrows: [00:09:26] Well, you research public record searching, social media, gather it. It's always important to gather as much information as you can. And I think, you know, as much as it's important to gather information about a particular case or subject matter or the crime that they may or may not have committed, it's as important to get a sort of a background and that kind of a psychological profile the best that you can on the person. Who is this person? What makes them tick from the outside? And then you have to make a lot of sort of judgments and calls on the fly.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:09:52] What are you looking for from social media, for example? You know, if you're looking at my Instagram or my Twitter feed to see what kind of person I am, what indicators are you looking for?
Kevin Barrows: [00:10:05] Well, it could be anything. Who are you a fan of? What sports teams do you like? That's something that I'm going to kind of connect with you about. You're a huge football fan and we're going to talk about the Super Bowl before and those kinds of things. Or you know, or your team, what kind of a family man are you? Where do you vacation? I see that you are in the Grand Canyon last year. I was there two years ago. You know, talk about that. Those are the kinds of things that helped me connect to you.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:10:28] You're using that to develop rapport. You're not necessarily looking to see, “Oh well, Jordan takes a lot of pictures of himself, so he's probably a narcissist.”
Kevin Barrows: [00:10:38] Both.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:10:39] Oh, you're looking at that too?
Kevin Barrows: [00:10:40] A 100%.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:10:41] Good. Yeah. I always think about that. I'm like, “I don't want to take a selfie.” Like all these other people, they look ridiculous doing that.
Kevin Barrows: [00:10:47] No, but those things do tell you something about the person, right? It's certainly nothing that's dispositive, but it tells you something about the person and every piece of information you can get before you go and sit down with someone is going to be very important.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:10:59] You mentioned that interviewees are often looking at you or me to determine whether or not I'm worth being honest with them, or worth telling the truth. That's an interesting point I want to dissect. How do people make those decisions in their head? So respect was kind of the key there.
Kevin Barrows: [00:11:15] Sure. Let me give you an example. So I was in the FBI or when I was in the FBI, my partner and I were looking to find out the identity of this particular broker. This kid named Lou who was selling stocks, fraudulent stocks all across the state of New York in the city. So he was really sort of very nefarious in our minds. Every boiler room we had gone into, we had found his name, but we never found him. He was always moving one step ahead. So one day, I'm sitting in a squad room and my phone rang and they said, “Hey, there's a guy here who wants to talk to somebody in securities fraud and you guys have a case that had his name in it.” And he comes up…
Jordan Harbinger: [00:11:53] Oh, he just walked in?
Kevin Barrows: [00:11:56] To the FBI, and wanted the FBI to protect him. That's why he came in. They call us. We sit down with them. It's this guy Lou we'd been looking for for a long time. He walks in dust and he says, “Look, I'm going to give you 10 minutes here. You don't know who I am. I want protection, but I can give you a ton of information.” But I went to another office and tried to do the same thing and these guys didn't know who I was and I walked right out. He said, “Basically, I said a few choice words. Got to get up and walked out.” You had no idea for how great I am in my…
Jordan Harbinger: [00:12:30] So he walked in and he got pissed because the FBI agents didn't have information?
Kevin Barrows: [00:12:35] That’s right. They didn't know. He wasn't famous enough or infamous enough for them. So for me, it was great, you know, we sat down with him, I gave him 25 minutes of who he is and what stocks he sold and who he sold them to, and what victims he had, and all the things we had against them. And at the end of that, he felt like, “Hey, these guys have paid me the appropriate amount of respect. They know what a great criminal I am. So I can deal with you then, you know me, you know what I'm about.” And that to me was really telling. And I think that's true across the board with interviews. For him, he needed that respect. But you definitely have to figure out what these people, you know, with the interviewee wants or needs.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:13:13] So it's not just that you have to become a subject matter expert in the crime. You have to become an expert in the subject of the interview, the witness.
Kevin Barrows: [00:13:22] That's right. The subject matter of the crime is important. Once a sub person is interested in talking to you, getting the person to want to talk to you is often the most difficult part. That's where the other information is vital.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:13:34] How do you go about that? How do you become an expert in that particular individual?
Kevin Barrows: [00:13:38] Well, again, it's a lot of research. Hopefully, you get to talk to other people who know this person because research doesn't tell you the whole picture. That's often key, we would talk to associates, friends, people who knew him, and with the same person. Not only did I tell him about the stocks, but I would say, “Well, let me tell you, here's who your girlfriend is and let me get you, your friend has a pet monkey. Is this true? Here's the pet monkey's name.” At the end of that, his statement to me was, “How long have you guys been bugging my phone?”
Jordan Harbinger: [00:14:07] And you haven't been bugging his phone?
Kevin Barrows: [00:14:08] Absolutely not. When somebody says that, “How long have you been following me? How long have you been bugging my phone?” You know that you've done your job and they're at the point where they're like, “I might as well tell you everything because you know it already.”
Jordan Harbinger: [00:14:18] That's not just a throw away statement though. The last thing you said, “I might as well tell you everything because you know it already,” that is kind of what you're going for, right? Because you want them to go, “There's no point in lying. They know about Jimmy’s monkey, Dax. There's no way they don't know about me having embezzled from my boss for two years if they know this crap, they know everything.”
Kevin Barrows: [00:14:39] 100%, that is the key. As I always described it as putting someone in a box and I closed the wall as tight as I can around him.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:14:46] Wow. Okay. I like that. So we basically give them every reason to tell the truth that we can possibly find, right?
Kevin Barrows: [00:14:57] And it begins with the premise that people, as I said, will tell you what they think you know. And they don't want to tell you a little anymore than that, right? So when you can explain to people, sometimes it's subtle, sometimes it's specific, depending on the person, how much you've done in preparation? How many people have you spoken with? You feel like they start to feel like, “Well, how am I going to lie? They've always already spoken to 25 other people. He's read all the documents. He's seen my email. Am I really going to try to lie now?” That's the process. Sometimes, subconsciously, sometimes consciously that goes through people's mind.
Jason DeFillippo: [00:15:32] You're listening to The Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest, Kevin Barrows. We'll be right back.
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Jason DeFillippo: [00:18:53] Well, okay, so I rounded up. Don't forget, we have a worksheet for today's episode so you can make sure you solidify your understanding of the key takeaways here from Kevin Barrows. That link is in the show notes at JordanHarbinger.com/podcast. Thanks for listening and supporting the show. To learn more about our sponsors and get links to all the great discounts you just heard, visit JordanHarbinger.com/deals. If you'd like some tips on how to subscribe to the show, just go to JordanHarbinger.com/subscribe. Now back to our show with Kevin Barrows.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:19:26] The other thing you said that is interesting as well, they're only going to tell us what they think we already know. So the idea here is to get them to think that we already know everything in the first place. Okay. So putting the witness in a box or like that, that's like maybe a slightly more hostile way of me conducting this particular guy, right? “I don't want to put you in a box,” but I want you to go, “Well, there's no point in lying because he already read this.” Or, there's no point in not going into detail on something because Jordan read the book, which is kind of what I'm going for. So you want to tell them all the information, probably in a general sense what you've already gathered. I guess you don't want to be too specific because then they can find something where you might, you want them to fill in the gaps for you.
Kevin Barrows: [00:20:07] That's right. Yeah. So, but they'll fill in the gaps once they realize, “Well, you know it all. So now I'm just giving you details. It doesn't matter.” Right? It really doesn't matter. So you have to be good enough to say, you know, you may sometimes there's very, as I said, general. I read everything. I've seen it. Sometimes it's, “Yeah, I spoke with this person and they told me these five things and I read these five things.” Sometimes it's more specific. It depends on the person.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:20:30] One line that I'd love from our prep here was, if you were me, what would you think about all this? Tell me why that worked. Tell me when to use that and why it works.
Kevin Barrows: [00:20:40] I use it somewhat often in interviews because I'll be speaking and I'll say, “Well, did you steal the checks?” They'll say, “No.” “Well, you were the last one to handle the checks.” “Yes.” “And you were the one that was supposed to deposit them in the bank?” “Yes.” “And you remember seeing this check?” “Yes.” “But you didn't steal the check?” “No.” Stop. Now, I want to put them to switch hats with you. Now, you're the investigator, I'm you. What are you thinking as an investigator right now? What I just did? Most of the time, they'll go, “Yeah, I'm pretty sure I think I stole them.” When somebody says that, you're getting towards that admission. You're getting them, you're sensitizing to the fact that they're going to ultimately say that. It’s just edging your way there and it's really effective because sometimes people say kind of, “You got me at that point.”
Jordan Harbinger: [00:21:23] Oh really?
Kevin Barrows: [00:21:24] Yeah. I mean in your own mind it's like, “Yeah, I guess it doesn't make sense what I'm about to say.” And sometimes they'll say it again. I'll say, “It's interesting, that doesn't make sense.” There is a time to sort of confront people. It depends on the person's personality where I'll say, “I don't believe you. I think you're a nice guy. I don't believe what you're telling me, you know?”
Jordan Harbinger: [00:21:41] I mean, I think if they're innocent they would say, “I realized this looks really bad.” I mean, what does an innocent person do versus a guilty person? Is it a different reaction?
Kevin Barrows: [00:21:48] Yeah, it is often. A person who's innocent when I say, “What would you think? They might say, “I don't know what I think, but I didn't do it. I know.” You know, it really depends on the person as to how they'll react. But there is definitely a difference often in how somebody who actually did it would react versus somebody who didn’t.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:22:06] That's scary because I'm thinking, “Uh-oh, what happens if you didn't really do it?” But there's a way that you’d tease it out elsewhere.
Kevin Barrows: [0:22:13] Yeah. And again, that's not the end. That's the beginning. Once they say, “Yeah I think it probably looks like I stole them.” and then we sort of start to dig a little more. Let's rethink now. “Are you sure this didn't happen? Maybe this happened? Maybe you're covering for a friend?” Or if sometimes that's sort of just the beginning of that process where they're like, I can’t say it. I often say, “I know you did it. You can say it. I know it. I know it happened already. I'm not going to be shocked by anything you tell me.” I tell people that all the time. It's true because sometimes I don't want to admit things because I'm afraid it's going to be so shocking to you. You know, that kind of thing. So you have to sort of, sometimes I'll say to people, “I've heard it all, I’ve seen it all. I know these are the things that you're going to say. It's just a matter of you saying it.”
Jordan Harbinger: [00:22:57] Right. So we're looking for confirmation. Instead of finding out the story for the first time, we're just basically saying, “Look, we already got the whole. We have our idea of how this all went down. We're looking for you to sort of tell us that we're right.”
Kevin Barrows: [00:23:10] Right. And this is different than an interview where you're just going on blind and knocking on doors and talking to people. Of course, at that point you're just asking questions. Everybody could be lying to you, but you have no ability to sort of have a back check before.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:23:22] Yeah. All right, so what about body language? We talked sort of pre show, everyone's like, “Oh yeah, if they bounced their leg, they're full of crap. If they scratch their face, they're not telling the truth.” There's got to be something to that. But I think there's an overemphasis on tells because it looks good on TV or it sounds great in a poker match, you're in a book.
Kevin Barrows: [00:23:41] I'm very conscious of tells. It's something that I'm very aware of. But I think you're absolutely right. I think there's sort of an overemphasis, an over alliance on it. But what I do is when I start speaking to someone, I take a baseline in my own mind. So I say, well, I'm going to ask, “These are ground balls. How long have you lived here?” And all those kinds of questions, right? “What's your date of birth? Or do you have any siblings?” And then what I do is, from that baseline, I see how you answer those questions. When I get to the tougher questions, I see how your baseline changes. And that to me can often be the key. So sometimes again, I'll ask a lot of questions right in around, no problem. We get all the way up to, what did your brother do in this?
[00:24:22] What do you do? And then it's like a five second pause. Then I'll say, “Stop.” “I just want you to understand. So I just actually asked these questions, no problem. I just asked you about you and you took a five second. I mean it was like five seconds between.” You see what I'm thinking now that you're either thinking, “How can I lie to him?” Right? I'll talk to people through that process sometimes because I know that they're thinking it through.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:24:47] Should I just narrate? Like, “If you're taking a long pause. What are you thinking about it? How can I get around this question?”
Kevin Barrows: [00:24:51] Yeah. I'll say, “I noticed that you took a long time to answer that.” No, you didn't take a long time with all the other questions. So that tells me that you're either thinking, “How can I lie or how do I say this?” I do that often. And there are times when, again, yet tough questions and people start to rub their eyes like this. And I'll say, “I noticed that you look like you're all [indiscernible]. We had no problems up to this point, right? So tells is art, there is something to it, but it's not the end all.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:25:20] Right. So the baseline, I think, is the concept that most people, maybe even if they've heard of it, most of them probably haven't, even if they've heard of it, they have no idea what that means, right? Because we might even think, “Oh, I don't need a baseline because this guy, I've known him for a while.” But if you haven't seen someone in a specific context, maybe you don't know. Somebody who's known me for a while might go, “Jordan is normally really relaxed.” But yeah, now I'm in a room with two cops. I'm still innocent. It's just weird. I’m sitting in a room with two cops. Like, am I in trouble? Of course, I'm going to be nervous.
Kevin Barrows: [00:25:50] Absolutely true. Yeah.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:25:52] So we have to get a baseline every time.
Kevin Barrows: [00:25:54] Every time, because every situation is different. If I see you at a party, you're not going to talk to me the way we are speaking today or the way we'd speak if it was in an interview, you know, for some offense. So you have to, you know, when you sit down, people are going to be nervous. They're talking to an investigator about something that's uncomfortable by its very nature. So you take a baseline at that moment when you sit down through the first five minutes, 10 minutes of questioning and then you know, when something goes on this.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:26:20] Yeah. Oh man, I can imagine that innocent and guilty alike are not going to be very comfortable in most contexts where they're being interrogated for any reason at all.
Kevin Barrows: [00:26:35] It's very true. I mean, it is uncommon and like I said, I often tell people, “Look, I understand this is uncomfortable”, and I try to set their mind at ease, you know, during the process as best as we can.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:26:44] So how do you know whether to confront them about their change in baseline or I mean, is there a reason we might not confront them? It seems like that's a great time to do it, but is there a reason to just kind of let them continually stew in that?
Kevin Barrows: [00:26:57] Yeah, there are times when you just let them continue to lie and then what I do is it really depends on the person. I have to kind of get your personality, sort of read the type of person you are during the course of the interview. Some people you know you, if you confront them too early, you know you can lose them. They can walk out, still I'm not talking. So you don't do that. You go through the process and then maybe I circle back 12 minutes, 15 minutes later, I'll go back to a question I asked earlier. So now, on the second time, what's the reaction going to be now? You know? So that's sometimes telling and sometimes it changes, you know, the behavior changes or they come to realize that you didn't believe me the first time, you didn't say it, but you're back asking me the same question. So that means you didn't believe me, you know? So it really depends. It's an instinct thing. It's an experience thing that tells you when you should drop the hammer and say, “Hey, I don't believe you.” And when you should let it go and circle back and be more gentle.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:27:52] Identifying the witnesses’ motivation. We talked about this a little bit earlier, but being that good judge of character is obviously crucial for someone who an investigator, how do you decide what the witnesses’ motivation is to cooperate or not? I mean, you mentioned the large ego, but we didn't really talk about what to do if you follow. What if we find that this person is clearly a narcissist? How do we leverage that?
Kevin Barrows: [00: 28:17] Well, a lot of times it is. You may pay the person a certain amount of respect. So I'll say for example, I'd say to you, “Thanks for meeting with me. I've seen your podcast. You're tremendous at what you do. I have to tell you, I think you're absolutely the best in the business.”
Jordan Harbinger: [00:28:31] Yeah, that would work on me. It's working on me now and you don't even mean it.
Kevin Barrows: [00:28:35] Well, what's happening here is right where I'm starting to make you feel like, “Hey, I like this guy. He's okay. He's a guy I might tell the truth to, ultimately.” I'll give you an example. I was doing an investigation after the Bureau for a client on a check scheme where a woman was, in this case, actually stealing checks herself for a third party, for a friend outside of a company. So I sat down with her and I realized just through looking at her history and, you know, her employer had provided me with her work history that she just absolutely loved her job and loved the fact that she was so well thought of by her employer.
[00:29:12] So I understood in my mind the thing that's going to get higher, it's not going to be threatening or scaring her. It's going to be trying to play into the fact that she feels so bad about what she's doing. She does because she loves her employer. So ultimately, I was telling her a lot of things. “Let me just say before we begin, thank you so much for meeting with us. I've heard amazing things about you. You know, Barbara said that you're one of the best people that have ever worked at the firm, and I know you're a loyal employee, but even loyal employees make mistakes at times. Doesn't make you a bad person, right? With a lot of people where there's two forks in the road and you go left or right. It doesn't mean you're a bad person your whole life, but you take that wrong.”
Jordan Harbinger: [00:29:48] You almost said, “It doesn't mean you're a criminal, but it does.”
Kevin Barrows: [00:29:52] Yeah. But I would say, it doesn't make you a bad person, that kind of thing.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:29:55] It doesn’t make you a criminal actually, hold on. Yes it does. You're here already under arrest.
Kevin Barrows: [00:29:59] And frankly, that's how life is. I mean, there are some people who, you know, one of my cooperators wrote a book called Born to Steal. This guy was born to steal from the time he was this big, he was involved in fraud. There are other people who are good people who make a bad decision at the wrong time. Yes, there are still criminals ultimately, right? But that doesn't necessarily mean that they're inherently bad people.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:30:23] That is a good distinction actually. And does that affect your approach? Because it seems like it would have to in some way, but I guess if you're investigating one specific crime, if it's a career criminal versus somebody who made a mistake, how does that change things?
Kevin Barrows: [00:30:40] Well, career criminals can be much more savvy to the system, to the interview process. So you have to approach it completely differently. Whereas someone who's never really done this before and knows they made a mistake, it's much more inclined to say, “Yes, you're absolutely right. It was a terrible mistake that I made. I'm not a bad person.” They want you to know they're not a bad person.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:30:58] I feel like if I committed a crime, I would feel so bad. I probably would crack in a second because I would want to tell. I would just want to get it over with.
Kevin Barrows: [00:31:04] Many people are like that.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:31:06] Yeah. I would be the kind of person. I couldn't go on the run of any kind that, not that I would never, ever, ever do anything that would warrant that, but even still, I would just be like, “You know what? Just arrest me and then I will go through that.” That way I don't have to stay up at night worrying about when it's going to happen.
Kevin Barrows: [00:31:22] And the other thing is lying. Remember, it's hard because you have to memorize a script. The truth isn't hard. So that's something that you know, right? You know there’s typically one truth. The lies are very difficult to keep track of. So a lot of times I keep going back to the story and I say, “The last time you didn't tell me your brother was here. Your brother was here this time. Oh, okay. What else?” Then I go back to the story again. “Oh, this time your brother -- was your brother there?” “He wasn't.” He was then he wasn't, now he is again. So you're almost telling the person, “Your credibility is not great right now because your story continues to change and if it's the truth, there’s really one story, right?”
Jason DeFillippo: [00:31:58] You're listening to The Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest, Kevin Barrows. We'll be right back after this.
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Jordan Harbinger: [00:35:38] The idea of this story changing is sort of near and dear because I had a problem when I was in Serbia -- 10 plus years ago or 15 years ago almost now, one of the things that the investigator, their state security officers took me and my friend and essentially kidnapped us. But I guess if they're cops, I don't know if you can count that. It's still the same thing. And one of the things they kept saying is, “Oh, this never happened because your story changed. And I kept saying, “Well, wait a minute. What are you talking about?” “Oh, well, you know, first it was these guys and this, it happened then and then your story changed.” But they couldn't pinpoint when the story had actually changed, which made me think, “This is just something you say when you're trying to poke holes in someone's credibility if you don't have a specific example.” But you and I talked pre-show about testing the person's veracity throughout the discussion. Can you give me an example? You kind of mentioned that your brother was there, now he's not there. But there's more to this and this would work with kids really, well, I would imagine.
Kevin Barrows: [00:36:40] When I speak with anyone, I'm always testing throughout the whole process, not just on the critical issue, which is, “Well, did you steal the money?” Right? Not that story. But all along, for example, I might say, I may have spoken with a co-employee sometime ago and said, “Hey, when's the last time you spoke with Jordan?” They'd say, “Well, it's about a week ago. We talked about these three things.” Then when I'm speaking to you, I’d say, “Hey, did you speak with this person?” “No.” “You haven't spoken with him? When’s the last time?” “When she left two years ago.” That tells me that, well, look, this is something you didn't need to lie about.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:37:10] Right. It's not a material.
Kevin Barrows: [00:37:12] It’s not material to what we're doing. So I'm testing you. I'm already seeing that you're thinking, “Well, I better not say this because it might lead to something. So I'm going to lie.” Right? So I'm already saying, “Your credibility is not great with me to begin with.”
Jordan Harbinger: [00:37:23] Okay. So it doesn't mean the person's just a liar and a compulsive liar, and they lie about what color shoes they wore yesterday. It means that in their head, they're going, “Okay, I've got to close off all these little ads reviews, because otherwise they'll get to the core of my BS.”
Kevin Barrows: [00:37:39] That's right. Sometimes, I'll give you an example, in a case where there's some sort of a sexual assault allegation, I work on these cases often, and the question is, it's a he said, she said proverbially, right? And you speak with the victim. And if it's just two people in a room, the victim could say, 50 things happen to make the story that much more horrendous. And the civil side makes that much more money to them in their case. But victims who say, no, who are consistent, no, you know, all he did was X, not X, Y and Z. That gives you credibility. You could say anything. You can make this story unbelievably outrageous if you were a liar, right? If you're a person who's inclined to lie, but you didn't. You kept the story exactly to what you'd said with ten people in the past. You know, it's not good, but it's not horrendous. That, to me, gives you a lot of credibility because there's nobody to say you're a liar there other than the accused who was saying you're a liar about everything.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:38:32] So the fact that you have so much freedom to embellish but didn't, goes to the credibility that, “Look, this might be some stronger indication that what you're saying is potentially true.” That's a good point because I'm trying to think when I was a kid and to just BS-ing my parents or my friends or something like that, sure, what you say is, “Oh, well if I'm going to go and tell this bullshit story, I'm going to lean into it.” And say, “Oh, there were like 50 guys there and I beat up all 50 guys,” right? It's not just, “Yeah, I smacked the one guy and ran away.” Like, no one else was going to prove me otherwise, so I'm just going to go all the way through with this. And adults do this too. Yeah, that totally makes sense because it's like, well, why not do that? It's going to maximize the dramatic impact of this.
Kevin Barrows: [00:39:25] And you can’t prove it anyway, so I might as well tell you the greatest story of all.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:39:28] Right. Weave a tale. Yeah. Why is it that people who lie about small details are more likely to lie about the larger thing? We talked before, yeah, maybe they're trying to close off an avenue. Are there just some people that will lie about every little thing? Because it seems like that's such an obvious way to get caught if you're just completely BS-ing the entire time.
Kevin Barrows: [00:39:49] Remember, people again, it always goes back to they'll tell you what they think you know. If they don't think you know that these little things are lies then they're not lies in their mind. You see what I'm saying? But it's a matter of credibility and when you're assessing whether someone's telling the truth, it comes down to, do you believe this person was a credible person? And if so, was the information they were giving you truthful? That's really what it comes down to.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:40:12] So how would you and I, if we're dealing with kids or friends of ours that we think might be full of it or an employee, how would we test their veracity? I mean, it's going to be pretty obvious if I'm like, “Hey, did you wear jeans yesterday?” And we saw them walk into Starbucks yesterday and they go, “Yeah, why?” I mean, is there kind of a sly way where we can do this?
Kevin Barrows: [00:40:33] There is. It has to be within the context of what you're talking about, it might be, “Hey, did you text any friends and tell them you did this?” “No, I didn't text anybody.” Because you don't think that I know that you texted your friend, right? You deleted it from your side but didn't realize that I talked to your friend, or your friend's mother who called me. So that's the way in which it's not the big one yet, right? The big, you know, lie. But it's little things that tell me already you're building up the story so that I can't get to the truth. Building these kinds of walls around yourself so I can’t faction. And that's what you're doing. It's a game. So, at that point, I may say, I may get through the whole interview and then go back and say, “You know what? You lied to me about that because I know I have the text here. So why should I believe you about this now?” You know, that's an effective way to confront someone without, you know.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:41:25] Is there a right answer to that question? Like, “Hey, you lied about the text. Why should I believe you now?” “Oh, because now I'm not lying, but I was lying about that other thing.”
Kevin Barrows: [00:41:32] Because again, kids will tell you what they think you know? “They only know this, so I'm only going to tell them about this,” Because all this stuff, they're really bad.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:41:41] I'm sure. I'm just thinking back to all of the things I lied about as a kid that I can remember, and I always fell for this, right? It was never just, “Did you leave your Legos out in the basement?” It was always like this big web of BS that was impossible to maintain.
Kevin Barrows: [00:41:56] Right. And you can never repeat it, there’s no way. I know. And people were like that also. I mean, adults.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:42:03] Yeah. Oh man. Do you ever find really convincing liars where you're like, “Man, I think this is,” and then you're just shocked when you find out that they were full of it. They've really been able to pull the wool over your eyes in the beginning.
Kevin Barrows: [00:42:15] I'm not going to say it's never happened, but it's not often. Usually you can't always prove it at the time. You can't always confront them about it. But there's many times when I've walked out of an interview and said, “I believe about 40%, maybe 50% of what this person told me.” There's nothing you can do about it. You just don't have that evidence to confront them on.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:42:36] Right. So then you're back to the evidence collection process where you're like, “You know, he says that he has nothing to do with the guy who owns the junk yard. We've got to watch him until he meets up with the guy who owns the junk yard.” Because I know that that just doesn't add up in my mind.
Kevin Barrows: [00:42:50] And again, at the end you're saying, “Well, I don't believe him. I couldn't confront him on it. But what's his credibility like?” “Well, he had a misdemeanor. He had an assault charge against him four years ago. He lied to me about being married, he was never married to this woman.” That paints this higher picture.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:43:08] Giving people the opportunity to come clean was one of the things we talked about pre-show. And I'm just thinking that would definitely work on me because I'd be feeling so much it and you're just like, “Hey, just tell me what happened.” I would be like, “Oh, okay. So here's what happened. Now that I've realized that I'm not getting away with this, here's the whole story.”
Kevin Barrows: [00:43:26] Yeah. I mean, sometimes I can see it in people where they're struggling. There's like a pause and there's like eye closed and I may say something like, “It's all right to say that.” You know what I mean? I know already you're not, so there's no shock here. We've heard it. I know what you're about to say. You just have to say it. It's done. And then, you know, what's going to happen is I'm going to tell your employer that you did the right thing. You came clean, you're remorseful, and you know, I'm going to tell them that to do the most they can for you, given that you did the right thing. That's somehow a way to get people to relax a little bit because they're afraid when those words come out, they can never come back. You know?
Jordan Harbinger: [00:44:06] What do you think when you see, I don't know if you're able or comfortable commenting on this, but you hear about these politicians that had like a picture taken with their buddies, got a KKK hood on or something like that and they go, “Oh yeah, you know, that was really that. We shouldn't have done that.” And then the two days later they're like, “Oh, that wasn't me.” You know, I mean, that's so clunky. You can't recover from that.
Kevin Barrows: [00:44:28] No, you can’t recover. That's why again, you know, the jerk reactions to questions are lethal because once it's out there, you know there's no taking it back. So anything that follows is going to be measured against what you said initially and that's why I go back to, I want to be the first interviewer, all the time.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:44:45] Oh, you want to be the first interviewer?
Kevin Barrows: [00:44:46] Always, of that person. Meaning, I don't ever want, “Well, legal counsel went out and spoke with this person and an HR. Now it's your turn.” Once you speak with somebody the first time, they build up their defense and once they build up, “Okay, now I know what they want, what they want to know. Here's how I'm going to lie to them.” Once that's built up, it's double and triple difficult to break that because now they not only have to come clean, but they have to admit to have lied to their employer or to HR or to the legal counsel that makes the job that much more difficult.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:45:22] That's interesting. Plus they've got a couple of practice runs of like, “Oh gosh.”
Kevin Barrows: [00:45:25] Right. Yeah, I know where the questions are going.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:45:27] Right. When they asked me about that, I got to have a good answer for that. And I didn't really, and she kind of didn't capitalize on it because the HR manager or not an investigator. So yeah, when they say, “Didn't you do this at your last job?” My answer is going to be, “Oh, I didn't even work there.” Or like, “No, I never had any cash that I handled at the last job.”
Kevin Barrows: [00:45:42]And they asked me about email so I would go back to all my emails. I'm going to say, “This one, they're asking me about. I'm going to explain this, how I'm going to tell them this is why I wrote this because they're going to ask me about that.”
Jordan Harbinger: [00:45:51] Right. So the five second pause that they would've had the first time becomes [indiscernible]
Kevin Barrows: [00:45:55] When I asked about emails, “Yeah, there was an email.” “Oh yeah, I remember that email. I wrote that to her because…” The story's already been set in stone. It makes it a lot more difficult.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:46:04] That's really interesting. I think anybody who's really good at spinning a web generally has gone through that line of questioning with somebody who is not a good question. I pulled some serious pranks in middle school and stuff like that. And I remember talking with like the assistant principal who was like, “Did you do it?” “No.” “Well, we think you did it.” “Well, it wasn't me.” And just like really amateur lines of questioning and I thought, “Okay, look her in the eye and be really honest and all these BS.” And then when the, I don't know, now I don't even know who it was, like the school resource officer came in, I had already had this really good dry run with the assistant principal. So when he started, or it wasn't the school resource officer, it was a regular sort of beat cop.
[00:46:47] And he said, “Do you have credit card numbers at home?” Because I used a credit card that I had made up using an algorithm to order pizza for my whole school. Hopefully the statute of limitations is up at night.
Kevin Barrows: [00:46:57] Oh, I think it is. You’re good.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:47:00] And so the principal asked me all these amateur questions and of course I was able to sort of pass that on. I don't know if she really believed me or not, but then sort of this like new-ish young cop who was probably 25 but looked older at the time, came in and said, “Do you have internet at home?” And I said, “Yeah.” And he goes, “Did you download credit card numbers?” And I go, “No.” Like, who's going to admit this? So of course I saw that coming. And then when the school resource officer came in, he asked me those questions and he was like, “Hmm, who have you talked to about this already?”
[00:47:30] And I was like, “Oh, the assistant principal. And then the cop.” And he went, “Okay, so let me turn this up a couple of notches.” And then he got me with some other stuff because first of all, he was used to interrogating people and he was used to kids who are full of crap.
Kevin Barrows: [00:47:44] Yes. The story was already set in stone.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:47:46] Yeah. That was great. So instead of framing this as it’s the opportunity to get punished, how do we do this? Because I think giving someone an opportunity to come clean in a positive way is probably a little bit more effective than saying, “I know you're lying. Tell me right now and this'll be easier for you.”
Kevin Barrows: [00:48:05] Well, I think, first thing you may have to make sure they understand the cover up is going to be worse than the crime. Okay? So if you admit to me the crime, we're going to deal with it in an appropriate way, I'm not going to go. But if you continue to cover up this crime and lying about it is worse than the crime. So you have to make sure your kids particularly understand that. But employees the same way, if something happened, we get it out in the open, we deal with it and it's gone. But the continued cover-up and lying about it, is something that can never be tolerated because that reflects terrible credibility. It tells me that you're not a person that can be trusted. People make mistakes. They do stupid things -- Kids, employees, adults, everybody. But you can't be covering these things up.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:48:46] Is that one of the rationales behind the law of, you can't lie to federal investigators because even if they can't prove these certain things, if they can at least prove that you're full of crap on these other counts, they can still get it.
Kevin Barrows: [00:48:58] That's why it is. It's a federal offense.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:49:00] Is that any law enforcement officer? Or just federal agents? I don't know.
Kevin Barrows: [00:49:04] Yes. Title 18, USC 1001. You can't lie to a federal agent.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:49:08] Yeah, but what if I just lie to the Troy, Michigan police?
Kevin Barrows: [00:49:12] Well, you could still, if you lie to a police officer, they have state statutes, of course, that deal with it. And perjury is of course an issue too, if it's under oath at that time.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:49:22] Right. Statute of limitations. Yeah, that was sixth grade.
Kevin Barrows: [00:49:27] You're good.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:49:28] I did eventually admit a bunch of that stuff and just did a bunch of community service at the YMCA. I felt so bad about all that. Yeah, that was when I realized I'm not cut out for this crime. This is not for me.
Kevin Barrows: [00:49:43] But you're on the straight and narrow then.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:49:45] Yeah, well, let's not go that far. I mean, at the end of the day, I still somehow managed to make money from doing this. I don't know. I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop and doing what I love that it seems like there's got to be a catch. Kevin, thank you so much. This has been really great.
Kevin Barrows: [00:50:01] Let me say it was my absolute pleasure to meet you, to be a part of this and I hope, you know, we helped a few people out there.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:50:08] Great big thank you to Kevin Barrows -- That guy, really interesting. And one thing that was kind of cool, Jason, when he left was, he goes, “Let me know if I can ever help you with anything, especially if you need to find somebody. I'm pretty good at finding people.” And I was like, that's a baller way to leave the room, right?
Jason DeFillippo: [00:50:28] Man, I think I could take him up on that definitely.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:50:30] Let me know if you need to track anyone down like, “Okay.”
Jason DeFillippo: [00:50:32] Little Joey from seventh grade still owes me like $4 from that game of marbles. Can you find this guy and help get my money back because I'm Italian, so with interest that should buy me a house.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:50:44] Yeah, that's right. It's a house in Hoboken at this point. Yeah, there were a lot of things that he was really good at and interesting like I love guys who've just sort of seen some shit, you know and that like come at this with a totally different angle of experience -- Law enforcement, cops, all those guys that are just so interesting to me and there's a lot of cool stories that some are more applicable to the show than others, but I'm going down that rabbit hole. Recently, I've been reading books about all kinds of investigative techniques, which I think are just fascinating. If you want to know how I managed to book all of these great guests for the show and manage relationships with a lot of really amazing people over years and years, well, check out our Six-Minute Networking course.
[00:51:26] It's free. It's over at JordanHarbinger.com/course and it's designed to take, well like six minutes per day, so don't tell me you don't have time. It's a bunch of BS. It's about consistency, it's about habits and it's free. It's over at JordanHarbinger.com/course. Speaking of relationships, tell me your number one takeaway here from Kevin Barrows. I'm @JordanHarbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. There's a video of this interview on our YouTube channel over at JordanHarbinger.com/youtube and I want to give a special thanks here to Will Benedetto who let us use his venue here in New York at the Mondrian Park Avenue Hotel down in the boogie room there in the basement of that hotel. That's where this was filmed.
[00:52:07] This show is produced in association with PodcastOne and this episode was co-produced by Jason “Nothing But the Truth” DeFillippo and Jen Harbinger. Show notes and worksheets by Robert Fogarty. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. The fee for the show is that you share it with friends when you find something useful, which should be in every episode, so please share the show with those you love and share the show with those you don't. We've got a lot more in the pipeline, a lot of really interesting stuff, an insight to the human condition. I'm very excited to bring that to you. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time.
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