1259: Mad Mother’s Lies Sever Tenuous Family Ties | Feedback Friday

1259: Mad Mother's Lies Sever Tenuous Family Ties | Feedback Friday

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Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the Petri dish cultivating these microbes of drama, conflict, and life conundrum, Gabriel Mizrahi.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Accurate. I'm getting over a cold over here. That's why I sound like this today.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I could have seen that coming two weeks of nonstop travel, not sleeping.

A lot of subways. You probably touched a lot of icky handles lately.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I Japan too close to the sun and now I'm paying the price. That's right. Gabe b Icarus. Yeah. The way this stuffy nose is giving you the ick, is that what you're talking about?

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. Days like this. And I'm glad we're remote and not stuck in a tiny studio.

Just breathing that air and I get enough pestilence from my own children. Thank you. Sorry. You're sick dude, though. I haven't gotten sick yet, and I'm going to Patagonia tomorrow, so I'm just waiting for everyone to show up and be like, I'm just gonna go over a cold

Gabriel Mizrahi: right

Jordan Harbinger: in

Gabriel Mizrahi: my face. I'm predicting a post Patagonia plague.

Jordan Harbinger: I hope it's post man and not during. And then it's like, thanks for the sinus [00:01:00] infection that you all brought for me on this trip. Anyway, on The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, former cult members, Hollywood filmers astronauts, national security advisors. This week we had the legendary Ryan Holiday, author of the new book, wisdom Takes Work, learn, apply, repeat.

We talked about the virtue of wisdom. We talk ancient philosophy with modern application. He's a regular guest here on the show. Always a good one. We also did a skeptical Sunday, last Sunday on Kratom, which is a weird, not new, but weird drug you can buy at gas stations. Basically. On Fridays though, we take listener letters, offer advice, and generally sip your scalding tea through the widest of cups.

Gabe, since you're under the weather and seem to be chained to your desk all week, I assume you don't have too many stories for me today.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, I could tell you my latest meditations about various seven elevens around town, but

Jordan Harbinger: yeah,

Gabriel Mizrahi: no, [00:02:00] no bangers this week, unfortunately.

Jordan Harbinger: I mean, and ode to prepackaged Ramen on an Autumns day, a sonnet in three parts.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Literally the stuff of poetry.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Since you're in

Gabriel Mizrahi: Japan, you should

Jordan Harbinger: start writing

Gabriel Mizrahi: haiku

Jordan Harbinger: about your

Gabriel Mizrahi: kini adventures. Dude, I stayed at that monastery last week. I am this close to writing the sign-offs in 5 7, 5. Can't do it. That's actually not a bad idea. No,

Jordan Harbinger: they'd be short. Finally, I'm behind it. I'm here for it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I do have to tell you though, I'm staying in the funniest hotel. It's one of those very bare bones hotels where there's barely any staff. You check in on your phone or somebody checks you in on a device in the lobby remotely, which is what I did. Whoa. There's no housekeeping. Someone just, you know, delivers you, tells every day checks in.

If you need a robe or a toothbrush or tissues or whatever, you grab them from the lobby. There's a big dispenser, otherwise, you're on your own. So weird.

Jordan Harbinger: I know those places and they freak me out. They're kind of vaguely dystopian and I just feel like I'm in cyberpunk 2037 or whatever that movie is, and it's, it's, I, I can't hang

Gabriel Mizrahi: exactly.[00:03:00]

Marriott Bonvoy, blade Runner Edition.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. It's like cyberpunk with free Q-tips.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I might be one of five or seven people staying in this hotel, in this huge building, and there's a lounge on the second floor that's set up to be a breakfast bar situation. There are hot plates and everything, but there's nothing there.

There's just a bunch of empty tables and a single water dispenser at the other end of the room. That fills your bottle with like semi cold water, but at a certain point it just taps out and you have to wait 10 or 15 minutes for it to refill and that's

Jordan Harbinger: it. That's ridiculous. So it's like we were gonna have food here, but then we kind of went, nah, we're not gonna put any food or employees or anything in this place.

It's kind of spooky. I'm picturing you remember Home Alone, the coal furnace in the basement of Kevin Mc Miguel, the, the, the house where he's afraid of the yes furnace. That is hilarious. That's what I'm picturing. But it's a water dispensary that doesn't work.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Weirdly accurate. I kind of feel like I'm in the hotel in the shining a little bit except the signs are in Japanese and the creepy [00:04:00] twins you meet in the hall are.

Another digital nomad from Australia and a srilanka receptionist who's hanging onto your Amazon package at the front desk, so at least they have a receptionist. Anyway, I guess that makes you Jack Nicholson. That's disturbing. But that is exactly what it makes. Yeah. All dos and no play makes Gabe a doll boy.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Well, that's what's happening. We all know that's not true. The feedback Friday inbox. That might even be the only thing keeping you stimulated this week.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Who needs to enjoy one of the most beautiful countries on earth when you have wifi and an IV drip of top shelf drama as long as you take an ax

Jordan Harbinger: to our listeners' problems and not to the door of the Kiwi influencer's bathroom.

Speaking of which, uh, dizzy Life drama. Jack Ga. Gabe, what is the first thing outta the mailbag?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I was raised by my mom who struggled with serious mental health issues. She was manipulative and controlled most parts of my life and would even message my friends pretending to be me. It completely shattered my trust and made me pull away from [00:05:00] everyone.

Eventually I cut off all my friends because I couldn't handle the confusion and shame that came with it. Oh my God, that's awful. What

Jordan Harbinger: a

Gabriel Mizrahi: mother to have.

Jordan Harbinger: Gabe. This reminds me of that documentary on Netflix. The one about the girls who were harassed by it was basically they were harassed by an unknown number, the guys and girls for a year and a half.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, it's called Unknown number. Yes.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, and they reported it to the FBI and then, I mean, sorry to spoil it, but it turned out to be her mom. That's so cra. I have not seen this yet. It's literally insane. I watched it in New York and it's so disturbing to do this kind of thing to your own child. To state the obvi and it was bad harassment.

This wasn't like you're ugly. It was like, kill yourself. You're gonna be die alone. I'm gonna do all these things to your boyfriend 'cause he likes me more. And it's your mom, dude. Horrible. Anyway, to state the obvious, you have to be deeply unwell mentally. It's just really gross.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Really sad. I ran away when I was 21 and felt totally unprepared for the real world.

I'm 29 now and I still feel lost. I [00:06:00] don't have friends or any family around me, man, that's hard. By the way, do we know

Jordan Harbinger: if this is a man or a woman? It's a man. Got it. I wonder if his mom knows what a number she did on him.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Not long ago I found out my mom had also lied to me about my dad. She told me he was abusive and didn't care about me and a bunch of other horrible things, but I found his Facebook profile and learned that wasn't true.

Oof.

Jordan Harbinger: Fascinating. So Gabe, I'm guessing he means he talked to his dad and the dad was like, yeah, none of that ever happened. Where's the documentation? Yeah,

Gabriel Mizrahi: presumably.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Your mom scared me away by threatening me or whatever. Yeah, it's ugh. So if that's what happened, and if that guy can be trusted, that's really tragic.

You know, I'm livid at this woman. Obviously, she's off a rocker. Dad probably knew that and had to leave, which it's not cool to leave your child. Who knows the circumstances. Maybe he kind of had to, maybe he couldn't have a real relationship with his son because of his mother. She made up a story accusing him of a bunch of awful things and then told her son a totally different story.

I mean, uh, trauma on top of trauma.

Gabriel Mizrahi: We've reconnected a [00:07:00] little though. He lives in another province, so it's been hard to build much of a relationship. I also helped my younger sister escape from my mom's control. It was the right thing to do, but it ended up being really hard on her and my mom mentally.

My sister doesn't talk to me anymore. The last time we spoke, she said that talking to me reminds her of our family. I completely understand, but it still hurts. I was the only one in our immediate family she talked to since going to live with her dad,

Jordan Harbinger: this family Dude, this is so sad. So does the sister have a different father, it sounds like?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, that's the sense that I'm getting. There's a lot of angles because he said her dad. Right. So that must be a different father.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Even after everything, I still want to have some kind of relationship with my mom. She's disappeared and won't tell me where she is, but she's still my mom and part of me can't let that go.

She left just before Christmas last year. I also wanna find a way to reconnect with my sister someday, or at least make peace with how things are. Is it even possible or healthy to have any kind of [00:08:00] relationship with a parent who caused so much pain but clearly has mental health struggles? How might I start rebuilding trust and communication with my sister?

How do I find confidence again? Meeting people, making friends, and learning to live a normal life after growing up like this, signed, reconnecting with my progenitor after this emotional divestiture. Which required a significant expenditure and sent her into another hemisphere,

Jordan Harbinger: bruh.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, this is a rough one.

Jordan Harbinger: There's something so vulnerable and like earnest about this guy. Just the way he laid it all out,

Gabriel Mizrahi: man. The longing to have a mother figure in one's life is so profound and it's so moving to hear about it. Everyone needs it, man. Everyone deserves it. But not possible for anyone, sadly, with some of their biological parents anyway,

Jordan Harbinger: sadly.

No, I mean, his mom is, ugh. I don't even know what this woman is. I mean, I'm aggressively flipping through the dsm.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Opens to random page and points.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. It's gotta be some kind of personality disorder, right?

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:09:00] I mean, I feel like the dues crews just docked at a port called cluster B.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I think so. And I, I have no interest in getting off and seeing the sites here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, no, let's just stay in our cabin. Shall we read a book? That's right. Stretch our legs at the next port. That's

Jordan Harbinger: right. This woman, she's outta her mind, man. That's my professional opinion as a man who bought a USB microphone a few years ago.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dr. Harbinger just scribbled bat shit on a prescription pad and slid it across the table.

That's right.

Jordan Harbinger: Take two of these and call me in the morning. Exactly. But seriously, I'm so sorry that this is your mom. Truly what she's done to you, it's unforgivable. Obviously she has some serious issues, so maybe she can't help it in some sense or whatever. But none of this is okay. And I'm just, I'm so sorry.

I'm so angry. That she left a mark on you, made you pull away from people, left you isolated, unsure of yourself. My heart really goes out to you, man. So obviously this is not a safe parent to be close with. She's not even stable or caring enough to be reachable by her [00:10:00] kids. She's disappeared, which is just bizarre behavior.

I think it's safe to say that that itself speaks volumes about her current mental state. It does, but it's still hurtful, man. Yeah, of course. Of course. It's gotta feel like insult on top of injury. Abandonment, on top of abandonment, even at 29 years old. It's heartbreaking, but. I also understand the desire to reconnect and have some kind of relationship.

You want a mother and your mother is not a good mother, and I just wanna pause here and acknowledge that that is really painful. There's no easy solution to that pain. It just sucks. This might hurt to some degree for the rest of your life. So my honest answer is no. I don't think it's possible or even entirely healthy to have a real relationship with a parent who caused this much pain, who clearly has mental health struggles as long as she isn't doing anything meaningful to address them, or she isn't open to talking to you about all this in a new way,

Gabriel Mizrahi: right?

Which she is clearly not, and I'm guessing will never be able to do.

Jordan Harbinger: Dude, you can't even find her. She's, this is literally not possible right now because she's unreachable, which [00:11:00] is so weird. Look, there might be some limited relationship with her. That's possible. A very superficial relationship where you know where she is or if she's alive, or you talk about basic stuff here and there maybe a highly boundaried relationship where she can't hurt you again.

But that's not a real full relationship. It's not a super deep one. And I'm afraid that given everything that's gone down, this is gonna be a painful and potentially dangerous relationship for the rest of your life, which again, is just very tragic. Now about your younger sister, this is also a really sad subplot.

You helped her escape, but that didn't solve all her problems. And now you're kind of paying the price by having to receive her anger, her sadness, having to deal with the distance. This is another reason I really feel for you. I'm guessing you did the right thing in helping her get away from your mom. We don't know what their relationship was like, but I can only imagine.

And you said that she controlled your sister too. And so now this is kind of blown up in your face. And all I can say there is, and this is also really hard, but it's important. You and your sister, [00:12:00] yes, you had the same mom. You probably dealt with similar challenges, but you're two different people maybe with different personalities, and you guys are each on your own journey and for whatever reason, your sister needs to distance herself from you.

Right? Now, I, I don't know if that's fair or unfair. I don't know if that's necessary or unnecessary. Maybe it's not, but that's what she's saying she needs right now. And clearly there's something about having contact with you that's very painful for her. It reminds her of your family when she said that.

I know you get that. She has to go through her own process around your mom and around her relationship with you. So I think a big part of your job is right now just letting her do that,

Gabriel Mizrahi: letting her do that, and still letting her know that you love her and you're available to talk. For sure.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, man, A brief message every so often.

I mean, you probably have her phone number, right? Just text her or something. Or you could call, you could send a voice note If you want to get that in between space, say, I love you. I hope you're doing okay. I respect the distance you feel you need. I'm here whenever you're ready. That's really all you can do.

I wouldn't pressure her and like, call me back please. I, what did [00:13:00] I do wrong? Like, don't stress her out like that right now.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, a message like that is nice. I'm sure it'd mean a lot to her.

Jordan Harbinger: Your job right now really is just to keep the door open. My hope is that she doesn't feel this way forever. My hope is that you guys find your way back to each other.

She just has to be ready to do that and that's the only way I can see right now to rebuild trust and communication with her.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I also just wanna acknowledge we don't exactly know what went down between them. I do find it a little curious that the sister who was presumably subject to the same insanity from the mom is now turning on him or distancing herself.

What is that about?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I had the same question maybe, but you know, maybe it's like anyone who reminds her of this very painful, crazy family is dangerous for her right now. Her mental state is too fragile. Say, but you're right. If he really did a good thing as he put it, it was the right thing to do. Why are things playing out this way there?

Maybe there's more to the story. I kind of feel like there's more to the story, but also maybe she's just like. Wow, that was a lot of crazy. I need to be with my dad and the other siblings and like pretend to live a normal life and forget about all this, [00:14:00] just to get some mental space, and then she'll be like, but I miss my brother.

He was nice and he's the one who helped me. And then who knows? Dude, you get a call outta the blue. I'm kind of hoping that's how it shakes out,

Gabriel Mizrahi: so we cannot know what happened. I just wanna acknowledge that this could have been the right thing to do in some sense, but he might have gone about it in a way that, I don't know, created additional pain for her or.

Was a little heavy handed or inadvertently controlling himself and that's why she isn't talking to him. I am speculating so wildly. I just want to acknowledge that there might, I think he should be curious about what she might be going through beyond just, I can't be near you because it reminds me of everything.

And maybe that's another way into rebuilding trust with her, for him to say, look, if there's anything I did along the way to make our relationship harder, I'm happy to hear that and I'm eager to understand and make things right.

Jordan Harbinger: I like that. 'cause if that's what's going on here, I'm sure she'd appreciate hearing that and that could make it okay for her to say, I know you had your reasons to pull me out, but it was also hard for me in this and that way I resent that you did this and that way, whatever it was.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. And then [00:15:00] they're talking. I also wonder if his older sister, and by, by the way, there's an older sister in the full letter that he didn't elaborate on, but it sounds like there are three siblings. I wonder if they have a relationship and if maybe she could be helpful here too. If the younger sister finds it easier to talk to the older sister.

Maybe one day the older sister could help bring them back together. Maybe help her see that our friend here is not the true villain or whatever problems they have. They can work out. Who knows? Maybe she can host some kind of sibling chat about all of this one day when the time is right. They might need a third party to work on

Jordan Harbinger: things.

That would be great. Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So once again, as I am ought to do, I will fall on the sword and say that you should strongly consider getting into therapy because we're dealing with wounds and relationships, formative relationships that are very primitive, very complicated. Clearly this goes back a long way.

You're also asking about aspects of self that are profound. Feeling confident, feeling worthy, feeling like you have a place in the world. Feeling secure enough to relate to new people in a way that feels safe. There's some [00:16:00] significant processing and talking and hopefully healing that has to happen here.

There's also some crucial stuff that needs to happen in order for you to rewrite this template that probably got created with your mom. So to learn how to depend on someone who's healthy and consistent, who can give you a very different experience of closeness. And by the way, that's one of the powerful things about working with a good therapist.

That relational piece is often one of the most healing parts of therapy. It's not just what you talk about, but whom you're talking about it with, and the quality of that connection and the quality of their attention, which could be so different from the influences growing up. This is gonna take some time, and I would just love for you to have a partner in that.

And 29 is a great age to begin therapy. You're still young. And these are crucial years to work on this stuff and still enjoy decades of benefits.

Jordan Harbinger: For sure. And if you need help finding one, please write us and we can try to help. But listen while you work on getting to therapy. I'll just say this, I think one of the big projects of your life will be working with this wound, hopefully in ways that are helpful, learning to make peace with it and [00:17:00] find other sources of love and connection with people who are stable and consistent.

That is absolutely possible. You do not have the mother you want. You do not have the mother that you deserve. But that doesn't mean you can't build meaningful relationships with people that are loving and fulfilling. And some of those might be maternal. It's not the same thing as having a great mom, but it can be very powerful.

I also think that those relationships can be with places and communities and activities like working, volunteering, traveling. Dedicating yourself to a certain field or a certain goal, all of that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I also hear you that if you can't reconnect with your sister, you at least wanna make peace with all this.

And that's also a crucial part of life. Knowing what you can change, accepting what you can't, you know, the wisdom of the serenity prayers, that's an ancient kind of idea, and that always ends up being a process of grief as we talk about. I wish that there were a clear playbook for this kind of acceptance, but there unfortunately isn't.

Yeah, wouldn't

Jordan Harbinger: that be nice? Lemme

Gabriel Mizrahi: know

Jordan Harbinger: if

Gabriel Mizrahi: you find a copy, I could use it. Same. There's really no rubric for like surrendering. There's no easy how to guide [00:18:00] for the stuff, but he's right that that's a part of the equation.

Jordan Harbinger: Definitely more process than destination.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So I find that it usually ends up being more about what you don't do than what you do do, which is yet another source of grief and sometimes even an injury, because you have to confront, I can't fix this overnight, I can't change it.

I can't make this situation anything other than what it is. I can't make my sister feel differently about me magically. It's brutal, but knowing when it's time to just allow things to be, that can sometimes get you closer to the progress that you are looking for than actively doing something. It's a weird paradox.

Jordan Harbinger: Totally. The piece is almost like a byproduct of a kind of healthy giving up. Exactly. So look, man, I'm so sorry your mom was such a nightmare, but here's the good news. You are an adult now. You are free of her. You have some challenges of course, and they are very real, but they are not insurmountable.

There are resources and communities and experiences available to you that will really help you move through this and start to create a very different life, [00:19:00] a very different experience of yourself. I promise you that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I would also ask you what exactly you're looking for in wanting to reconnect with your mom beyond just the basic need to have a mom.

What are you hoping to achieve? What experience are you hoping to have with her? There's nothing abnormal about wanting a mom in your life, of course, but given the mom you have and all of the data you have about how that might go. There's probably something more going on here and that would be good for you to understand.

Are you hoping to try things in a new way and find a different result with her? If so, what would that give you? Or are you hoping to not have to live with the sadness anymore? This loss, again, perfectly understandable, but if reconnecting with her is a way to avoid that feeling as opposed to building a meaningful relationship with her, which honestly does not sound very possible right now, I would just try to sit with that a little bit before you reach out.

'cause I think there might be a few things going on here.

Jordan Harbinger: Agreed. My hope for you is that you learn to bear this pain around your mom while you open yourself up to those sources of help and [00:20:00] slowly start trying things in a new way. Relationships especially easier said than done. I know, but that's your job now.

It's okay to feel unprepared. It's okay to feel lost. Everyone does from time to time. Don't let that stop. You start there. You have enough to get yourself to the next person, the next place, and the main one I would prioritize is therapy. The confidence, the healing, the peace, all of those will come when you start to address this pain and work on things.

I would make that your primary focus right now, sending you a big hug and wishing you all the best. You know what makes a great Christmas gift for your estranged sister Gabriel. The fine products and services that support this show, we'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by BetterHelp.

One of my favorite winter traditions is piling the kids into the car, grabbing hot chocolate, driving around different neighborhoods to look at Christmas lights. But as fun as the season is, it also gets busy, stressful, and sometimes a little emotional building in something like therapy. A moment to slow down reflect, gets some clarity, feels like a new tradition worth keeping.

That is one of the many [00:21:00] reasons why I recommend BetterHelp. My parents have used it. I've used it. Jen uses it. A lot of our friends use it. We just know a lot of people that need therapy like you, for example, and their therapists are fully licensed. They work under a strict code of conduct. They handle the matching process for you, which is nice.

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That says a lot. So if you want to end the year with a little more clarity or a start a tradition, that's for you. This might be the time.

Jen Harbinger: This December, start a new tradition by taking care of you. Our listeners get 10% off at BetterHelp dot com slash Jordan. That's better HEL p.com/jordan.

Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by Aura Frames.

Buying for the people you're closest to is always the hardest. You want something meaningful, not just something to check the box. That's why I love giving an Aura Frame. It's personal without requiring me to do any actual crafting, which is ideal [00:22:00] because let's just say my skillset does not include DIY holiday projects.

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Jordan, this deal is exclusive to listeners and frames sell out fast. So order yours now to get it in time for the holidays. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout terms and conditions apply. [00:23:00]

Jordan Harbinger: Thank you so much for listening to and supporting the podcast. Your support of our advertisers keeps the lights on around here.

All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are searchable and clickable On the website at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now back to feedback Friday. Okay, what's next?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, I've been with my partner for over five years and he's the most loving, supportive man I've ever been with.

He notices the little things is always quick to compliment me and makes me feel truly seen and valued. Even when he is busy with his phone or video games, I never have to fight for his attention. He'll stop whatever he is doing to give me his full focus. He's attentive and affectionate and always puts me first even with a demanding military job that includes long, physically exhausting hours.

Jordan Harbinger: Great. Really enjoy that tasty little nap. Now let's get to the main course, shall we?

Gabriel Mizrahi: But he doesn't handle stress well and relies on alcohol to cope drinking every day. [00:24:00] While he is never gotten sloppy or out of control, it's frustrating watching him turn to something unhealthy. A few years ago, I also discovered that he was hiding Zinn from me, which led to a big fight, not just because I disliked the habit, but because he was keeping it from me by hiding it in the bathroom when he was drunk to use it.

Jordan Harbinger: Ugh, Zen. For anyone who doesn't know it's a nicotine pouch you put in your mouth. It's kind of

Gabriel Mizrahi: like Sno, right?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. You put it between your gum and your lip and you're like, mainlining tobacco sludge. And the bookly, I think is the word for it, because it goes between your cheek and your, or your lip and your gum.

I have never projectile vomited harder. Then when I tried Swedish Snooze from my buddy Johan in the nineties.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, sounds so intense. My Swedish friend also uses it. It's big over there, right?

Jordan Harbinger: The whole of Scandinavia. They love their snooze, man. I do not.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No. They're like, Tootsie. Rolls for grownups, huh?

Jordan Harbinger: Like Tootsie rolls for grownups.

If Tootsie Rolls gave you mouth cancer and made you have to have to take a crap immediately after [00:25:00] putting one in. It's so fun, guys.

Gabriel Mizrahi: He promised to be honest going forward, and I made it clear that if he ever hit it again, I'd leave. Then recently we were relocated to a very small town for his job. We're both very unhappy here.

There's little to do no social circle, and we've both struggled to make friends. His work stress has also ramped up significantly. And a few months ago, I had a gut feeling he was hiding the zen again. I searched and found multiple cans hidden around the house. When I confronted him, he lied again before eventually admitting to it, I was furious.

Around that time, his drinking escalated to a bottle of Johnny Walker every two days.

Jordan Harbinger: Uh, okay, that's more worrisome. That is not a small amount that, gosh, thinking about drinking that much is making my stomach hurt.

Gabriel Mizrahi: He promised to cut back on the drinking and try to quit Zinn. Then a week later, I noticed that a bottle of liquor was missing a couple of shots.

When I confronted him, he lied again. So I packed a bag, [00:26:00] grabbed my cat, and drove 11 hours to my dad's house just to get some space. Oof. I've been cheated on in the past. So the lies even about quote unquote small things, trigger deep mistrust. If he's hiding this, what else could he be hiding?

Jordan Harbinger: I was just about to say, given that this isn't, you know, like hiding.

Crack, heroin, whatever, or passing up drunk on the lawnmower every night.

Gabriel Mizrahi: What is it about this really that's so particularly upsetting to her,

Jordan Harbinger: right? I mean, he's an alcoholic, but here's the answer. Being lied to even about small things, that hurts.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And then it echoes this thing in the past. So there we are.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, I totally get why this is doing a number on her. It's a wound and now she's assuming the worst. And it's not completely irrational.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm not proud of it. But I went through his phone, social media, and even credit card statements, but didn't find anything.

Jordan Harbinger: I just want a quick aside here. There's all these people who are like, I'm ashamed.

I went through my partner's phone after they lied to me. Don't be ashamed of that at all.

Speaker 3: No,

Jordan Harbinger: if somebody is giving you now, like I know people are like privacy sacred. By the time you go through their phone, the [00:27:00] relationship is over. Not really. You wanna confirm if you're spiraling about something reasonable.

It's not like he was five minutes late coming home and he's never late. So I went through his phone, his social media, his credit card statements, called his mom, called his ex-girlfriend. You're not being crazy. He's lied about alcohol abuse and tobacco abuse. Multiple times. And so you went through his phone and social media to make sure that he wasn't cheating on you or doing something even worse.

I don't know. Is that unreasonable? Not really. I don't know. Maybe I'm crazy.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's not unreasonable from the standpoint of I totally understand why someone in this situation might feel the need to do that. I go back and forth on whether that's fair. Even if you have a reason to suspect somebody, because privacy is sacred.

It really is. But I've never been in this situation, so what do I know? Maybe if I were her, I would totally be doing that.

Jordan Harbinger: Look, I haven't done it, but I, I feel like if I lied to Jen about stuff multiple times and she was like, all right, well, I'm looking through her email that I have access to already just to see if you're like doing something really weird and [00:28:00] drinking or doing drugs or buying drugs online.

I don't know. It's not totally unreasonable, dude. I don't know how I don't. Again, maybe I'm the crazy one. Anyway, continue.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Then while I was away, things took another turn. My 15-year-old cat got sick and was diagnosed with cancer. That, I'm sorry to hear that. That's so sad. That sucks. Kitty. Mm-hmm. I'm sorry.

I had to choose between staying at my dad's and driving five hours round trip for treatments or moving back home where an oncologist is nearby. I came home. Then adding to the stress, I lost my government job as a software engineer earlier this year due to federal cuts.

Jordan Harbinger: That sucks. I'm sorry. When it rains, it pours, eh?

Gabriel Mizrahi: It sure does. She's going through a lot, man. So she goes on. Since March, I've applied for over 600 jobs, and I've only gotten a handful of interviews with no offers. I have two bachelor's degrees in computer information systems and communication, and yet I'm currently working as a barista just to bring something in.

My confidence is shot and the [00:29:00] $11,000 in counting in vet bills has nearly drained my savings.

Jordan Harbinger: That's really hard.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I've kept in touch with my professional network, but my entire career has been in the government, and as you can imagine, there aren't any opportunities there at this time. I've tried to encourage my partner to find healthier coping methods, but after working for 24 hours or more and hardly getting to sleep, if at all, he's too exhausted for things like the gym.

I've suggested therapy, but he refuses to try it. With everything going on, I've shifted into survival mode and haven't pressed the issue as hard.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, this is tough, but if you have time to stop it BevMo and pick up a handle and some Zi, you have time to knock out some sun salutations, go for a walk, something.

I think he's going out of his mind. Dude's working crazy shifts. 24 hour plus. I mean. Alcohol and tobacco, help 'em numb that stuff. I get it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: How do you work 24 hours in the military? Don't they have shifts?

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, but here's what it could be, man. Like if you, let's say you work in like a missile silo. I know that's an extreme example, but it's just one that [00:30:00] comes to mind.

'cause my buddy had a job like this. He had to be around in case they had to launch missiles. So you're not like awake at a computer working for 24 hours. You're in a bunk reading, bored outta your mind underground sometimes, and you sleep and you wake up and you check stuff and then you've got your messages and you sweep up or whatever, and you make sure the computer turns on, I guess, and then you go back to bed.

I mean, it's incredibly boring. He says he has a stressful job. So maybe it's something more than that. But you can work shifts, like at a hospital, you have a 24 hour shift as a nurse, but you're asleep for some of this

Gabriel Mizrahi: theoretically. Right? Yeah. Fair enough. Still, my partner has been incredibly supportive through all of this, he's been there for me emotionally, especially regarding my career situation and knowing that he may have to support us financially for a time.

And he has never once wavered in his encouragement. He's trying to quit the zenin, though I still get frustrated when he admits that he slipped up. He no longer drinks a bottle of whiskey every few days, but when he does bring home shooters, he'll hide them from me to avoid an argument. By [00:31:00] staying, am I teaching him that lying comes without consequences?

Is this a pattern or did I back him into a corner where being honest felt impossible?

Jordan Harbinger: Ooh, interesting way to put it. I appreciate that. You're curious about that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, both can be true. I think.

Jordan Harbinger: Let's get into that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: How can my partner cope with stress in a career that is so mentally and physically demanding when he refuses therapy?

Do I just need to accept that? As long as he is in the military, his drinking habits will be the reality and stop nagging him about it. And do you have any advice for my job search? Signed, putting an end to these stimulants when my dude is quite literally being militant, that these vices are pretty innocent and he won't get on the couch and get intimate.

Is my anger here legitimate or do I need to make peace with this predicament? Hmm. Because maybe I'm just hypervigilant and my interventions are proving impotent.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Okay. Lots going on here. Let me start by saying again, I'm so sorry you guys are going through such a rough patch. Life really do be like that sometimes, and [00:32:00] sometimes there's very little we can do about it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Speaking of surrendering, huh? Yeah. The process they're in is tough.

Jordan Harbinger: It sucks. There's no way around it. Problems at home. Setbacks at work. A big move. A disappointing move. Disappointing. A frustrating job Search. A pet getting sick. I mean, holy cow. This is a lot, my friend. I'm not trying to slap a bandaid on it or anything.

I'm not saying like, oh, just give up and wait, or like the universe provides, right? But sometimes there is an element of that to surviving. These things, patience and surrender. These phases never last forever. Something's gotta give and sometimes you just gotta wait for the tide to turn a little bit and then build from there.

Now people are screaming at us right now. Gabriel, that said, I find this conflict with your partner very interesting because people are gonna be like, I turned off the episode as soon as you said that and I didn't listen to the rest, but I took three hours to write the seven page email to you about how I'm disappointed in you anyway.

Look, I'm on your side here. I'm sure his life, both your lives, honestly. Would be a lot easier if he were not drinking, if he weren't sneaking. Nicotine hits around the house [00:33:00] that can't be making what sounds like an already stressful life, less stressful. The hangovers, the dependency, the secrecy, and the lies, totally with you on that, by the way, Gabe, whenever people tell me like, oh, he is drinking a half a bottle of Jack Daniels and doing Zen every day.

I'm like, this guy must wake up feeling like

Gabriel Mizrahi: absolute dog turds. I was thinking about that. How is he doing that? And then going to work for 24 plus hours. That's bananas. My

Jordan Harbinger: dude, I have one drink at 5:00 PM My sleep is totally screwed. The next day. I'm like, good thing it's Saturday. This guy's like having the amount of alcohol I drink in a year, every day, and then he's hitting nicotine on top of that, like, my God, my kidneys would be checked out.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I have a week blocked off of my Google calendar in 2026 for a drink. I'm gonna have to celebrate the end of this script. Yes, that's how exactly, that's why I plan for these things these days.

Jordan Harbinger: Eggnog on Thursday, well write me off till next Thanksgiving. At the same time, in the grand scheme of things, and I hate that I'm saying this, but alcohol and zin are somehow not the worst addictions you can have.

Obviously I think any addiction, once [00:34:00] it becomes a clear addiction, you gotta look at that, but I don't know. He's not coming home blasted and starting violent arguments with you. He's not driving home drunk or treating you poorly in other ways. This sounds more like I'm really stressed and this is the only way I know how to unwind and it's super unhealthy.

Less like my life is falling apart and I'm turning into a monster that can't be tamed.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Fair enough. But this is a spectrum, and we all know that these addictions can very easily snowball.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. This could all change tomorrow. And drinking a half a bottle of Johnny Walker every night, that's not a beer after work.

He's clearly struggling to cut back. So there's that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But then he's apparently a wonderful guy in all these other ways. He's supportive and he's loving and attentive and affectionate, and he always puts her first. Well, interesting. Maybe not in every regard. It sounds like the booze and zen is like the third wheel in their relationship, but he sounds like a solid guy all around.

So this is an interesting contradiction,

Jordan Harbinger: right? So I hold all these qualities alongside this addiction too, and I guess I feel for a guy who probably feels [00:35:00] stressed, scared, trapped, hopeless, and I'm guessing he has other issues. I have no idea what they are, but we've all got 'em that are just making 'em turn to alcohol.

So I'm not letting him off the hook. Not at all. Just trying to put this in perspective a little bit and try to imagine what might be going on for him.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. But then there's also the layer of this, like we talked about, that's about her past,

Jordan Harbinger: right? And like you said, that's magnifying everything. It sounds like he isn't doing anything else wrong.

Based on what you know, of course, but the fact that he's lying to you, that's enough to send you spiraling. Especially right now. That's at least partly your stuff intersecting with his stuff. Again, Q emails of us, like you're blaming her for his addiction, which is not what we're saying at

Gabriel Mizrahi: all. Not at all.

No. I just think it's always a good idea to ask what part of this situation is what this person is doing to me and what part of this is how I'm responding or making sense of what they're doing to me.

Jordan Harbinger: Right. What am I doing with what they're doing that's making me go fill in the blank, spiral out, fly off the handle, drive 11 hours to my dad's house?

Not that that was even an [00:36:00] unreasonable response in my opinion, but just saying,

Gabriel Mizrahi: I do wanna be very clear about this. Your partner has an addiction, even if it's a relatively mild one, although I'm kind of getting a mixed picture about that, to be honest. And it's moderate. I don't know. Is that mild? That's a lot of booze, dog.

It is a lot of booze. Being in a relationship with somebody who is addicted and doesn't seem to want to meaningfully work on it, that is always, always going to expose you to a certain amount of chaos and hurt. So that is fair. But then there's still how you're making meaning out of that hurt. And that is playing a big role here too.

That's what Jordan is saying.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. That's what's hers. So it's an interesting question. Are you teaching him that lying comes without consequences by sticking around? Well, in a way, yes. You're saying you have to get a handle on this stuff or I'm out, but you're not leaving. So that right there. That's showing him how seriously you actually take this.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But there are a couple other questions you might wanna be asking right now too. One of them is, are you actually prepared to leave if he doesn't quit the alcohol and tobacco? Maybe the answer is [00:37:00] yes. Maybe it's no. I do wonder if you've really thought deeply about that. It sounds to me like emotions are running pretty high these days, and when you found out that he was lying again, you bounced.

And I would be curious to know what exactly you were running from if it was to teach him a lesson or if it was just that the feelings in the house were so chaotic, you just needed to get away from them. But when it became a practical necessity to move back, you did all of which I get, but it just, there isn't really a clear strategy or stance here.

Jordan Harbinger: Right? She might have some thinking to do about what her standards actually are, what her red line is, whether she's really prepared to leave and stand by that decision if he keeps drinking.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But then another question is, let's say you get clear on this thing we were just talking about, how much of your hurt is about being cheated on in the past, and how much of it is about your partner lying to you now?

And if it's even the same kind of secrecy, let's say you parse that. You realize, oh, okay, I'm actually responsible for this piece of my anger, my hurt, not him. Do you still wanna leave? Do you still feel the need to show him that you can't stay if he's not taking better care of himself? [00:38:00] So I'm asking you that that is not a leading question.

Both seem fair, both seem possible, but I raise it because again, I think part of the confusion here and the inconsistency is actually about not being totally clear yourself.

Jordan Harbinger: I would agree with that, Gabe. But there are also some practical considerations here. She's struggling professionally. She needs to be close to the animal hospital,

Gabriel Mizrahi: right?

So her choices are constrained to some degree. I I totally get

Jordan Harbinger: that. Yeah. She doesn't have total freedom. She depends on him right now. And let's remember he's being a generous provider and a study support, and she has some responsibilities that make this more complicated.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay, so there's another good question.

How much do I prioritize these practical needs right now? My cat, my money situation, keeping a roof over my head. And how much do I stand on principle?

Jordan Harbinger: I like framing that as a question 'cause she ultimately needs to decide that for herself. It's hard for me to say definitively punishing him for not being sober is more important than stabilizing herself right now.

Or stability is more important than holding him accountable. I just can't say that

Gabriel Mizrahi: of course. And I hate that she doesn't have total freedom right now to make this choice from a [00:39:00] place of what's right or what she needs to feel totally safe and respected. On the other hand, it might clarify what actually does matter most to her right now.

Jordan Harbinger: So let's talk about, is this a pattern with your partner or did you back him into a corner where being honest felt impossible? Like I said, a great question. The way you frame this tells me that you're open to looking at this from a few angles. You're making room for him and I appreciate that. More importantly, I think he'll appreciate that.

And my feeling is this is clearly a pattern. He lied multiple times about this. He's gone on and off the wagon or maybe never actually was on the wagon. I don't know. So there's this cycle here and that's a point in your favor. Absolutely. I also think that there's probably a lot happening for your partner on his side of the equation.

So yes, one of those things might be that he feels the cost of being honest with you is very high or prohibitively

Gabriel Mizrahi: high. And that cost is what? Provoking her. Hurting her.

Jordan Harbinger: Hurting her, yeah. And touching this wound she has around being lied to at least. I hope he appreciates [00:40:00] that. So in his mind he's going, yo, I'd rather just keep this a secret.

'cause I don't want, I don't wanna upset this person. I love, I just need time to sort this out in my own way.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So I hear that, but I also think that might be letting him off the hook a little bit, because he's not just lying about this to spare her, he's doing it to spare himself. He doesn't wanna deal with it.

Definitely. Yeah. No, he does not wanna deal

Jordan Harbinger: with the consequences.

Gabriel Mizrahi: There's

Jordan Harbinger: that

Gabriel Mizrahi: he doesn't wanna deal with her. Understandable anger, her disappointment, her anxiety, the stress of conflict in general. So his addiction, even if it's not the most severe, is upsetting to her. Does it have to be as upsetting as it is to her?

Maybe not. But is it always gonna be somewhat upsetting to see your partner cope with a not insignificant amount of alcohol and a secret tobacco addiction that could give you cancer and not go to the gym? Or not go to therapy instead? I'm sure. And so yeah, he's lying to her and that's not cool. So this is complicated.

Jordan Harbinger: No, it's not cool. And I get that. I'm not saying what he's doing is okay. I'm just saying fair or unfair. If she [00:41:00] wants to understand him the way she's responding to all this, it might be making it that much harder for him to drag this into the open.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, fair. Totally fair.

Jordan Harbinger: For him to go. So here's the deal.

I'm stressed as hell. I can't seem to kick this in. I have three canisters of it lying around the house. I don't wanna hide it from you. I know that's not fair, but I also can't function without it. I need help, or I need to at least know that I can use it for a little while without feeling like I'm hurting you.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, that's a fair point. And honestly, if I put myself in his shoes, I think he definitely needs to take a hard look at his habits. But I can also imagine how the intensity of a partner's reaction might make this very risky territory for him.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Which is one more reason that she might wanna learn how to work with these feelings a little better and make the most helpful decisions around them so she can feel them.

And she's definitely allowed to feel this stuff. Mm-hmm. Look, I'm not saying that I feel like we're towing a, a line here. She's allowed to feel these feelings without putting even more distance between her and her partner.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But then to go back to the point about where one [00:42:00] person ends and the other person begins, he might also need to learn how to bear the perhaps appropriate intensity of her feelings better and not retreat and hide and then create more secrets, because that then becomes his stuff again.

And that just feeds the cycle.

Jordan Harbinger: My God, this ping pong match is endless, isn't it?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Relationships are wild. It's like that meme, you know that meme with the eight Spider-Man standing in the alley and they're all pointing a finger at one another? That's what this stuff makes me think of.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. Are you doing this to me or am I doing this to you?

And if I'm doing it to you, it's 'cause you do this other thing to me.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't know. Yeah. But then maybe I'm also doing it to myself. Exactly. So confusing.

Jordan Harbinger: Does it ever end? Does it ever just get to be one person's fault? Come on.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm not sure, honestly. I think about this a lot. I think it's more about appreciating the process that we're in with people, which is usually very complex, more than you know.

You need to stop doing this end of story, or you made me feel this way because you did such and such, and so this is your fault,

Jordan Harbinger: or

Gabriel Mizrahi: this is all my fault.

Jordan Harbinger: Right? Making room for all the data, multiple narratives.

Gabriel Mizrahi: At a certain [00:43:00] point you can go around in circles forever and ever, and eventually the whole thing kind of falls apart.

But just being able to say, okay, we agree that drinking excessively is bad. Yes. So when you drink and then you lie to me about it, that really worries me and it hurts me and. It hurts me extra because of the last time I was lied to, even though I know you're not cheating on me because I checked your phone.

Right? So let's start there. What do you need to take better care of and what do I need to take better care of? Even that would be a huge step forward in a conflict like this.

Jordan Harbinger: And that doesn't ultimately require anybody to be ultimately, right?

Gabriel Mizrahi: No. I mean, maybe someone is right in certain ways. For example, I think she's right that he's drinking too much.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh yeah. So do I. So people who've already written three paragraphs about how we screw this up, you can delete

Gabriel Mizrahi: those paragraphs, but he might also be right that her trauma, which he is not responsible for, is amplifying all of this and perhaps making it harder for them to talk. So what I'm saying is there's a more interesting question than who is [00:44:00] Right.

The better question is what is really happening here?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Nice. So speaking of what's really happening. She also can't make him go to therapy. God, we've tried. I mean,

Gabriel Mizrahi: if we can't do it, no one could do it. Unfortunately. No. But she can ask him why he doesn't want to go take a real interest in that and see if he's willing to talk about it.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Because then I'd have to acknowledge that something is wrong with me. And I know deep down that that's the case. Right. And in the unique challenges of being in the military, he's gonna have to figure out what he's numbing by drinking

Gabriel Mizrahi: what's coming up for him. Right Before he downs half a bottle of Johnny Walker, put some zen in his mouth, clearly there's something going on there.

Jordan Harbinger: Maybe if he saw that he could bring that to her without turning it into a fight about his addiction, I feel like that would go a long way

Gabriel Mizrahi: maybe, and that would be great for them. I, I hope that can happen.

Jordan Harbinger: I also think just being super practical here, if there's some way you guys could create healthier habits together, like you guys go for a walk at night during the time, he's usually slamming booze.

Or you listen to an audio book about addiction or trauma or coping with the military in the car and you talk about it together, stuff like that. I wonder if that might [00:45:00] also help you guys make progress here if he absolutely refuses to see a therapist. I'd love for him to get there, but there are other sources of help.

As for the job search, you know what I'd usually say? Relationships, relationships, relationships. I know you're already doing that, but still you gotta keep 'em up because you never know when you're gonna connect with that one person who opens a door for you. But more than that, when you're being C blocked by Doge in Federal cuts and all those forces that are outta your control, the best advice I can give you is that you gotta be resourceful.

You gotta be creative, you gotta be driven, and you have to keep having conversations that put you in touch with the people and ideas that are gonna show you the way forward. The answer to your job was might be to just keep going, or it might be to pivot to find a new field or a new function or a new calling entirely.

If you're coming home from the cafe and watching four hours of Love Island every night, no shade, I heard it's amazing, but that's not gonna get your career back on track. Or if you're spending your break at the cafe scrolling Instagram for 45 minutes, instead of [00:46:00] sending a few messages to people in your field and trying to book a call with them, then you are not truly doing everything you could be doing right now.

I know how bleak the federal world is right now. I know this is the last thing you wanna be doing these days, but this is the Uncle Jordan giving you a loving kick in the pants

Gabriel Mizrahi: if you need it. But listen, I just wanna reiterate, you are going through an exceptionally tough time right now, and I do think it's okay to flounder a little bit right now.

We all have those chapters, if this time ends up being about treading water while you take care of your cat, and you try to find a new way of talking with your partner while you do this temporary job. I know it's very painful, but that might not be the worst thing in the world. Stressful, uncertain, difficult.

Yes, sure. But maybe also in another way, potentially productive. Once, one or two of these challenges ease up. And like Jordan said at the beginning, they do have a way of doing that. Weirdly, I promise it will get easier to tackle the other things, but trying to do all of these things at once can be, it just makes you wanna roll [00:47:00] over and give up.

Also, by the way, sleep. Sleep,

Jordan Harbinger: get some sleep. You gotta both you guys get some sleep and eat well. Don't drink too much easier so than none for someone versus others. And surround yourself with good people. Stay focused on the things that matter. Alright, I think we hit our wisdom quota for this segment.

Maybe I need a drink now. I think. I dunno. I'm kidding. I, I can't afford that amount of time off. I can't afford two weeks off.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No, we have a lot of work to do in February, Jordan.

Jordan Harbinger: That's right. Exactly. You know, Gabe, I'm just sitting here thinking about this story and there are always gonna be people who write in after a segment like this going, he lied to you, kick 'em to the curb.

End of story. If this were Reddit, that would be the most upvoted answer, but all questions and conflicts if you really wanna understand what's happening. They deserve nuance and nuanced answers. Just don't make for good sound bites, especially on social media or whatever. But it's kind of the only way that I'm interested, and I know you're interested, Gabe, in understanding situations like this, right?

And clearly

Gabriel Mizrahi: so is she, which I really appreciate.

Jordan Harbinger: I think a lot of people like to do what we are just talking about, which is to go, okay, who do [00:48:00] we blame? Who's the bad guy? And there's a place for that. There are obviously situations, I mean, we say this on the show all the time too, where one person is the aggressor and one person is the villain, at least according to the person who wrote in for sure.

But more often than not, and even in those situations where there is a clear villain, there's still two people in a relationship. So in my view, it's it's highly simplistic, almost deliberately uncurious to paint with a broad brush and tell someone to say, break up with their partner when the way they're showing up in a conflict that they didn't instigate.

Is also playing a big role in their outcomes. It's just well said, interesting to appreciate. Okay, you can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Try to use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're finding dead squirrels in your mailbox, you're debating whether to follow your chaotic Unhygienic partner to another country, or you might still be in love with your ex-husband while contemplating marriage with the person you cheated on him with whatever's got you staying up at night lately.

Hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're [00:49:00] here to help and we keep every email anonymous. By the way, our newsletter, it's dying for you to read it every Wednesday. It's a two minute read almost every Wednesday. It's practical tips from these episodes from us to you. You guys love reading it. We love writing it, and you can sign up at Jordan harbinger.com/news.

Gabriel Mizrahi: All right, next up. Hey, Jordan and Gabe. My mom and I are extremely close and she has always been an amazing support in so many different areas in my life. Some of our most interesting conversations lately have been about politics as we have different political approaches that are genuinely fun to debate with someone who has points that will challenge my beliefs.

These conversations have led me to realize how much of an echo chamber I have unwittingly fallen into. My mom and I swapped feeds and shared with each other some of the more political posts that are being shown to us, and the difference in messaging between our two feeds was incredibly disheartening, but very illuminating.

I can see why we are so divided as a society.

Jordan Harbinger: That's a

Gabriel Mizrahi: great exercise. I

Jordan Harbinger: like

Gabriel Mizrahi: that. Also, I [00:50:00] love that you and your mom can talk like this, that you're doing this feed swap thing together. It's, it's very sweet,

Jordan Harbinger: right, and so helpful. I wish more families were like this. I cannot imagine doing a feed swap with my dad.

He would just be like, I don't know what I read.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Do you have any advice on how to grow my social network to include people with different beliefs so I can have more of these constructive conversations? Do you have any advice on staying up to date on news that is more focused on the problems and solutions instead of political power struggles?

Do you have any checks and balances you use to ensure that you are getting the full context of news stories signed? Doing labor to attain here a way out of this echo chamber?

Jordan Harbinger: Great question. This is something I'm constantly asking myself too. It's really hard to do. It's getting harder and harder, but it's so important and I love that it's important to you too.

That already puts you in just leagues beyond most people consuming information these days. So we wanted to get an expert's opinion on this. So we reached out to Jaron Lanier early internet pioneer, computer scientist and author of 10 Arguments for deleting your social media [00:51:00] accounts right now. He was a guest on the show.

Wow. Episode 156, so like a thousand episodes ago, approximately, I think. And Jarron's Take was a little brutal, insightful, but brutal. His take was, right now there is no way to get this kind of relief reliably from any top platform or service. He said that there are platforms out there that make a real attempt to combat bias.

Ones that focus on eliminating their reader's political blind spots. But Jaron said that even these sites tend to fall short of their original versions. Basically, in his view, we're stuck in a society in which we are essentially products that make more power and influence for the richest people who, and I'm quoting him here, get richer and more influential according to how isolated, lonely, vain nervous, partisan, and sad you become.

And that's the truth. Your pain is their wealth. That is the fundamental truth of the winner take all attention and automation economy. So that's the brutal part. And honestly, I can't say I disagree with them. Even more moderate or rigorous [00:52:00] sources, they're all part of the internet or broader media culture in some way.

And that's driven by clicks and shares and ad impressions and all that. And at the end of the day, those will end up being driven by primitive emotions. So it's tough. But here's the good news. The only answer Jaron said is to do what you are doing with your mother. Connect outside of the platforms with real humans in the real world and communicate.

People sitting at dinner with you, people at bars, people you meet, I don't know, volunteering at the animal shelter or whatever, as opposed to a right wing troll on X with a Nick Fuentes photo or a left wing conspiracy theorist on Reddit or whatever. Telegram channel or forum thread is designed to whip people into a froth, but I have other ideas of my own.

One, if you wanna grow your social network to include people with different beliefs, you can always follow people across the aisle from you. You can engage with people in communities that don't agree with you. It's amazing how quickly the algorithm will catch on your feed will start to diversify pretty quickly, which of course is part of the problem Jaron is [00:53:00] talking about.

But if you're deliberately engaging with different kinds of voices, your feed will probably be an interesting cross section of what's out there. You can also strike up conversations with people who think differently from you and learn from them. Just keep an eye on how much time you're spending doing that.

'cause it can take over your life. And if you're just arguing with people on the other side as a hobby rather than actually learning from them, that is probably not time well spent. And by the way, Gabe, have you seen on, I know you probably don't even use this and I barely do, but have you seen on X, there's a new feature that shows you where accounts are based and when they were created?

Gabriel Mizrahi: No, I haven't been on there in forever. So the now you can see like what country these people are from and it's like, oh now, if that makes sense.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. So basically all of these accounts that people are like, we're patriots, are like left wing, partisan resistance, mafia, antifa, whatever. You can see where the accounts are created and where they're being accessed from.

A ton of extremist accounts on both sides of the aisle are from Russia, Bangladesh, Nigeria. People who are like, I see I'm a proud Canadian and I just wanna say blah, [00:54:00] blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, oh, really? You're a proud Canadian. That's based in Czech notes, Nigeria, Russia, or Bangladesh or Iran.

What's even funnier, Gabriel is there's all these people who've been so loud about patriotism or like Antifa, anti-racism or whatever. It's just whatever left, right? Cause and then it's like, oh, is this you bro? Because the new feature that rolled out yesterday or whatever it was a couple weeks ago, with no warning, it says the you, daca.

And it's like they just delete their account overnight. Wow. No response. Nothing just deleted.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm confused though. Are they bots or are they paid trolls?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, both probably paid trolls. Some of the more advanced ones, 'cause they build big followings whipping people up, and they're almost certainly funded by America's enemies in some form.

In order to whip us up and divide us a hundred percent. We know this, but it's easy to forget because the ones there have been other people will have get called out. Like there's an anti conspiracy theory account where they're like, aha, you're in Latvia. And he's like, yes. See this tweet where I said Studying abroad and Latvia, and shows the university that I'm now guest lecturing at.

Not a [00:55:00] secret. I'm from Latvia. And then they go on with their life. But when they're like, what? This person was a proud Canadian, or proud New Yorker, or whatever yesterday, and now we find out they're in Russia and they just delete their account and people are like, ah. So basically that was an information warfare thing, and it's just nuked.

So funnily enough, Elon just nuked all of these overnight. Now the problem is they're gonna come back having used A VPN to create an account that says they were in Ohio. Mm-hmm. And they're logging in from Ohio, even though they're still in Russia. So it didn't solve the problem, but man, it took a huge bite out of the current, today's.

Patrol warfare infrastructure. So,

Gabriel Mizrahi: uh, it just sounds like a game of whack-a-mole.

Jordan Harbinger: It is. And there's basically nothing we can do about this 'cause we're a free country. Those countries, they control the internet so they don't allow dissent. In many places like this, you can't post anything like this. You'll get shut down and the police will come after you or they'll say, you know, you gotta take this guy offline 'cause he's saying something bad about the Ayatollahs, whatever it is.

So we really can't do anything about this on our end. Anyway, back to the task at hand. I think it's [00:56:00] better that you expand your information Diet beyond social media books, in my opinion, are the best source newsletters and I mean thoughtful ones, longer form ones written by true experts who know how to write and argue.

Well those are also great think tank articles. White papers, they can have a skew, but they're still better. Podcasts are, they're hit and miss man, you can drop in some amazing long form conversations between some really great thinkers. You can hear how they think through a problem, how they think through an argument.

They're great. But you guys know, look, podcasting's not a platform. It's really hard to cancel me for saying something that you don't like. That's great. So I can be nonpartisan. I can be as unbiased as possible. I can be as left, right, or center as I want to be. Center is kind of where I find myself. But then you can also just have unhinged absolute nonsense that's not being checked by anybody.

And we all know those podcasts. Generally, I like not being able to tell how the person I'm reading or listening to is gonna vote. That's just a

Gabriel Mizrahi: good

Jordan Harbinger: sign

Gabriel Mizrahi: to me. Right. Or what ideologies or [00:57:00] agendas they're beholden to before you even read them. Yeah, for sure.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. In these media, these types of thinkers, they also tend to dig more into problems and solutions, philosophy policy rather than who's gonna win this squabble this week?

Trump or Marjorie Taylor Green. Like who cares?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Which I agree. That is less useful in the shelf life of that kind of reporting, which by the way is often wrong or misguided. It's so much shorter.

Jordan Harbinger: Extraordinary. So what's

Gabriel Mizrahi: the point?

Jordan Harbinger: It is, it's clickbait nonsense. It's it's designed to give you eyeballs and sell you ads and then that the job of that piece is done.

Whereas understanding a great argument from a top scholar at a think tank on the Middle East or whatever, that could last you decades, that kind of thinking. As for finding checks and balances to get the full context, man, that's hard. It takes a lot of legwork. It takes a ton of diligence. I think your best bet is just to read as many different perspectives on a given issue.

As you can see how different sides and different lenses have very different understandings of the same event. Try to read media in different countries, translate it back to English and see how they report on something. Man, I, I'll routinely go, okay, this is a [00:58:00] European issue. I wonder how the South German newspaper is reporting on this, and it's like, boop.

Google will translate that into English and it's like, oh, this is a much more in depth, more balanced piece, right? Because I'm not reading about it in like the New York Post or something like that. You can also use websites like Snopes to fact check things. It's not perfect, but it's very helpful. You can use AI to summarize a bunch of articles.

You can ask it to compare how different journalists and countries are talking about a given issue. That's kind of a cool use case, but again, if this sounds like a lot of work, it is, it can become a full-time job. So keep an eye on your media consumption. It's so easy to get obsessed with this. I've gone through periods where I was really just too into this, and at a certain point you realize why people just stick with the sources.

They like the ones that confirm their pre-existing opinions 'cause it's easier to do that than to challenge yourself. Doing your own analysis is a real investment. It just never ends. Some good news and some bad news. We're definitely living through a sad and dangerous time for media. And to quote Jaron one [00:59:00] last time here, it sucks, but there's often something that sucks about any historical period.

This is one of the things that sucks about ours, and we need to be honest with ourselves about it. On the bright side, he also said humanity has made it through some other sucky times, and we'll make it through this one. I love your mindset here. I love you and your mom's relationship. I think we could all afford to be more like you guys and wherever you shake out on your opinions, the fact that this is something you guys can share.

That's really special and good luck. Big thanks to Jaron for his wisdom Here. You can learn more about Jaron at his website, jaron lenier.com while you are detoxing from the Digital Rage funnel. Here's a little pallet cleanser. Nothing unites America like great deals on the fine products and services that support this show.

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Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm addicted to lip fella. So while I was traveling with Erin Margolis, I noticed that she had her passport in a nice passport holder little booklet thing, and in the passport holder, she had an air tag attached to the cover.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, that is super smart. I should do that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I need to do that right? I thought this was brilliant. So simple, very affordable. And then if you ever lose your passport, you misplace it or whatever, you don't freak out. You can remember where you left it or you can hopefully track it down. You can make it chirp.

Can you do that? Yeah. You can make the air tag chirp and it goes, yeah, it's neat. Oh, that's brilliant. That way if it falls under the hotel bed or whatever, you know exactly where it is. So, right.

Jordan Harbinger: You're like, I'm standing on it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. It's like, okay, it's in the sheets or something. Yeah, it's lost in my man purse and I couldn't find it.

Exactly. So exactly. That is my recommendation of the week. A nice [01:04:00] passport holder with an air tag in it. It is super cheap. You can get a passport book for anywhere from like, I wanna say six to $20 I believe. An air tag is what, $30 maybe? Yeah, something like that. Maybe even two for 30, I don't know. Sub rec of the week.

A personalized passport book, you know, with somebody's initials or name on it is a great gift for the holidays. I've seen these on Etsy. You can probably find them on Amazon. I haven't looked, but I'm sure they're there. A few extra dollars. You put someone's name on it, give them an air tag. This is a great holiday gift, especially for people who like to travel.

Jordan Harbinger: That's a good one. Taking notes over here. I've seen some funny ones that make your pa, they cover your passport, but they make your passport look like it's from another country. Oh. And it would be really funny to have one that makes your passport look like you're from North Korea or something like that.

I was just

Gabriel Mizrahi: about to say, should we get DPRK passport holders? Right. I doubt they make those. They

Jordan Harbinger: probably don't. Additionally, but why would

Gabriel Mizrahi: you want to advertise that?

Jordan Harbinger: It would be kind of funny in the line and people are like, holy smokes. But then it's less funny when you get to the front and some, the customs guy, the immigration guy's like, [01:05:00] wait a minute, hits a red button on his dashboard.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That gets way less funny when TSA has to take your passport from you and

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Or when you're getting a body cavity search going through immigration and it takes three hours and you miss your connecting flight because you wanted a black DPRK passport cover. Exactly.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Is this your passport sir? Uh, we're gonna have to run the bags again.

There might be missile launchers in there. So we just need to let, yeah, we need to swab. Everything we, we have to make sure that you're not wearing, uh, O to VX on your neck, sir. Oh my God. Stand over here. That's right. Yeah. Don't fly through Malaysia.

Jordan Harbinger: Also, in case you don't know, there's a subreddit for our show.

If you wanna jump into discussions with other listeners about specific episodes, something you like, something you don't like, doesn't matter. We wanna hear it all, almost all of it. Anyway, you can find us on the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. Okay.

Gabriel Mizrahi: What's next? Hey, Gordon and Ja.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm currently in an industry that is oversaturated and becoming even more so with the increase in graduates being pushed outta universities every year more than there are roles available.

I've [01:06:00] also become less enthusiastic with this industry as it's repetitive and no longer challenging. I have, however, gained a huge enthusiasm and interest in cybersecurity. I've almost finished a master's level certification in cybersecurity and gained multiple industry certifications. The problem is getting into the industry.

I've read that it's best to get into help desk roles first, but I'm finding that even those roles are difficult to get into, even to get into the interview stage, I also want to get into this industry not only for my mental satisfaction, but also so that it's easier to move back to Melbourne where my partner and I will be closer to family and have support to raise kids in the future.

How long should I keep trying to switch careers before I should give up and stay in my current career with the tech industry the way it is? Is it even a good idea signed, managing my fear and wondering if I should give it say a year as I hack into this new career?

Jordan Harbinger: Interesting question. Well, first of all, congrats on chasing your passion for [01:07:00] cybersecurity.

Well done on finishing all those certs. It sounds like you've really put in the work to make this pivot, and I can tell from your email that you're driven. You're dedicated. Those are really good qualities. Second, I'm sorry that it's been tough to break in. I think that's just true of a lot of fields right now, especially desirable ones.

It's a very weird time in the job market. I mean, just look at our friend here in the federal government from Q2. It's frustrating, man. I know it's confusing. This might take a while, and there's part of the job search that's just basically being patient and being hardheaded, not giving up. So I can't tell you exactly how long you should try before giving up and staying in your current career.

Any length of time would probably be kind of arbitrary. I mean, if you try for four years and you're getting nowhere, okay, yeah, maybe not your path, but if you said 3, 6, 9 months a year, maybe even two years, I don't know. Whatever it is, I don't know how you make that decision, but actually I think it's kind of the wrong question.

It's not a very fruitful question. The more fruitful question in my view is what do I need to be doing specifically to [01:08:00] maximize my chances of breaking into this field? That always comes down to a handful of things. Investing in yourself, you're already doing that. You're getting certs. You know better than I do.

What else you need to do to educate yourself? Level up in your skills, have something valuable to offer. Employers have a great story to tell. That's just the obvious stuff. Second, relationships, you know, I'm about to say Six Minute Networking dot com. If you're not taking your relationships in the cybersecurity world as seriously as your certs, you're not really doing everything you can to break in and your and your education will only take you so far.

A lot of people think of networking as something that helps their job search. Networking is the job search. The people you meet, the people you help, the ones who identify with you and wanna see you succeed, they are the ones who are gonna open doors for you, help you prep, give you advice, fill in any gaps you have.

I would literally ask the people you connect with, whether it's a peer or your certain instructor or a hiring manager who turns you down. I would literally say, what would you do if you were me? What's the most helpful thing I could be doing? Then take their [01:09:00] advice. Actually take their advice. So this relationships piece, it is crucial.

I, I hear this all the, it's funny, Gabriel, the other day I was like, Hey, are you doing the Six Minute Networking stuff? I was talking to a CHA fan and he goes, Nope, I have a job in the art world that I'm satisfied with right now. And I was like, yeah, that's fine. You don't control whether you keep that job.

You don't think that your connections inside the art field matter? I'm so confused. Here's the thing. I'm gonna hear from that guy in a year and he is gonna go, oh my God, they laid off everything. Or My company closed and I have absolutely zero contacts, and now I'm starting from square one. And I'm like, well, yeah, that's kind of what it means to dig the well before you're thirsty and you didn't do that and now you're dying of thirst.

Well, Six Minute Networking dot com, the same thing I told you two years ago. Anyway, there's a handful of qualities you need to cultivate while you try to break into an industry. I already talked about patience. Consistency is another one. Optimism is another one. Excitement, curiosity, frankly, the ability to handle rejection and survive taking care of yourself along the way, mentally, emotionally, physically.

I would really encourage you to focus on [01:10:00] all that rather than going like, Ugh, okay, how long do I give this job search thing? 'cause first of all, you're gonna know if you get to a point where it's wise to pivot to a new plan. Deciding now when that date is. I don't know how much that's gonna do for you.

Gabriel Mizrahi: If anything, it might mentally let you off the hook if you know that there's only so long you have to deal with this frustration.

Jordan Harbinger: Good point. And actually, maybe that's why she's asking that question because she wants to time box the stress and heartache. I understand that impulse, but to that, I say, remember that third bucket I just talked about cultivating those qualities?

That's how you cope with the difficulty of a job search like this without giving up too soon.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And if you ever do get to a point where you decide, okay, maybe it's time to let go of the cybersecurity dream, you're gonna want to know that you really did everything you could to break in before you decided that

Jordan Harbinger: yes, otherwise it's gonna eat away at you.

So that's another reason to focus on what you have to do right now rather than on how long you have to do it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Excellent advice, Jordan. I'm also just remembering how much she has riding on this career transition. Right. She wants to escape her current field because it's repetitive and it's no longer challenging.[01:11:00]

She wants to be more fulfilled in her career, which I totally get. But this is also her and her partner's way of moving to this big city and moving to Melbourne is how they get to have the support that they feel they need to raise kids one day.

Jordan Harbinger: Mm. Yeah. The stakes are very high for her,

Gabriel Mizrahi: very high. And I wonder if she needs to maybe keep an eye on that because it can make a job search like this very taxing, which might also be making her go, man, how long should I put up with this?

It's interesting. I've been working on this really big rewrite of a movie that I have been working on for like five and a half years at this point. Yeah. Brutal. And a new actor is coming on board, or I should say is expressing strong interest in coming on board. Nothing is guaranteed. And this actor had some big notes, so I'm having to do some pretty significant work on the script to like beef up her role and just make the movie better and better.

And when the director and I started working on this about a month ago, I felt so overwhelmed, almost paralyzed, because it's like. Man, there is so much writing on this rewrite. If we nail it, if we [01:12:00] somehow check all these boxes that she wants, which is a hard target to hit, she says Yes, and we're off to the races and my screenwriting career, blah, blah, blah, money this credit, that exciting adventure that I get to have a, if we don't do that, then maybe this actor says, thanks, but no thanks, and she's out.

And then where are we then? So every time I sat down on my computer, I would have those thoughts in my head, and that just makes it exhausting and stressful, and it was not making me do my best work. I actually noticed that I was coming at this rewrite from a place of fear, what's gonna happen if I don't do this the right way?

Whatever that means. As opposed to, you know, joy and curiosity and most importantly, good ideas. Like, how good can I make this script with her input?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 'cause all you're thinking about is what you're gonna lose if you

Gabriel Mizrahi: don't succeed. Exactly. So I had to do something that I've never really done before, which was I just had to put that thought outta my mind while I worked.

Or actually to be more precise, you can't really get rid of a thought like that, right? You can just like stuff it down, which just makes it [01:13:00] stronger. Mm. I just kind of allowed it to be there. But to be there alongside these other more helpful thoughts like, what can I do to make this scene better? What can I do today that would make the script funnier?

How can I work in this specific idea from her notes or whatever it was? I'm also trying not to indulge the part of my brain that is going, man, how amazing would it be if I knocked this outta the park? And she said Yes, and we were golden because that's a fantasy. Again, nothing is guaranteed, especially in this stupid business.

So. I would also encourage you to find your version of that. With this job search, you almost have to pretend for a little while that your happiness and your fulfillment and your ability to have kids are not writing on this job search because actually in a way they aren't. There are always other ways of achieving those things if you really wanted them.

But even if they are writing on this job search, that thought is not gonna make it easier for you to keep applying, to keep smiling on Zoom for interviews, to keep studying for your certs. It's probably just gonna be overwhelming

Jordan Harbinger: unless she channels it [01:14:00] into that joy and enthusiasm you were just talking about.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. But then it's just about showing up and doing the work because she's lit up about cybersecurity, which is all she really needs right now.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I totally agree with this take. We all want things. We all have a lot riding on getting those things. How can we not, how, why else would you do anything? But you're right.

You have to be very disciplined about what you think about. When you're fighting for something and all those s that go into thinking about what you stand to gain or what you stand to lose, you need those fucks just to do the thing that's in front of you, the application, the class, the phone call, the workout to cope with the stress of applying.

So that's my hope for you, that you work your butt off to get this break, that you work your butt off for the things that are gonna move the needle. I promise you, you do that. Everything else will take care of itself. You've got this. We're rooting for you and good luck. Go back and check out Ryan Holiday and our Skeptical Sunday on Kratom.

If you haven't done so yet, show notes and transcripts on the website as usual advertisers deals, discount codes, ways to support the show all at Jordan [01:15:00] harbinger.com/deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. You can find Gabe on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi.

This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, tataki, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. I might be a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Consult a professional before implementing anything you hear on the show.

Ditto, Jaron Lanier. Remember, we've rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn and we'll see you next time.

What if the person charming your lonely aunt isn't after love, but her home, her will and her life savings. In this preview, Javier Leiva reveals how modern romance scams have evolved into full blown identity takeovers, hiding in plain sight.

JHS Trailer: A lot of con artists, they are very generous at first. They're the types of people that are gonna.

Pick up the tab. When you go [01:16:00] to dinner, they're buying you stuff. They're very generous and they're doing that. It's almost like they're fattening you up for when they need that favor. When they need that favor, when they need that loan, you wouldn't question it because this guy is so generous. Why wouldn't I trust him?

With money from a distance, we're thinking about these romance scams, like how could anybody fall for these things? Right? But the closer you look into it and put yourself in the shoes of the victim, you realize that when you're in the center of the cyclone, it all makes a lot more sense. Another thing is when somebody smothers you and just consumes all of your time, that's a warning sign too, because what they're doing is that they're cutting you off from your surroundings.

They create the urgency so that you could make stupid decisions, and you kind of bypass your reasoning. Don't forget your friends and don't forget your family. Their opinion counts, and you should take it honestly. When you start seeing all these signs, you [01:17:00] recognize that maybe this is a situation where you gotta create personal space.

You have to create boundaries. Most victims of any con artist, they feel so ashamed that they don't want to tell their story because they've been violated their trust and they're no longer trusting people.

Jordan Harbinger: To hear how predators turn affection into control, listen to episode 1195 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.