1355: Making Kids Aware of Genetic Risks They Share | Feedback Friday

1355: Making Kids Aware of Genetic Risks They Share | Feedback Friday

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Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, my co-pilot who's never lagging while I gallivant around the red dragon, Gabriel Mizrahi On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker, and during the week we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, former cult members, investigative journalists, legendary actors. On Fridays, though, we take listener letters, offer advice, and share weird travel stories from opposite ends of the globe.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Speaking of which, this is our first episode we're recording while you're in China. Looking good.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You seem very refreshed. You're in China mode. I love it. How are you doing?

Jordan Harbinger: Uh, it's early right now. I slept like crap because my kid kicks me in the balls. I sleep with my son here in this bed at this Hilton.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Still.

Jordan Harbinger: And I wish I had the ability to do soundbites on [00:01:00] the go, because I feel like I need to have Trump's, "China," soundbite- ... handy.

Gabriel Mizrahi: How did you not think of that in advance, dude?

Jordan Harbinger: China. I don't know. I need to go to guy- I need to go to the electronics markets here, which are bananas, and find a, a quick, a knock-off soundbite machine.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Poor planning on our part.

Jordan Harbinger: That was. I mean, the thing is, you can get... And I should do a whole bit on this, a, a whole segment on this in a future episode, but the electronics here are a whole thing, but y- yeah, we c- basically we've got to see how this Wi-Fi holds up first.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Honestly, it's doing great so far. You said you couldn't even connect when you first arrived, but this is perfect.

You're coming in crystal clear.

Jordan Harbinger: This is through a VPN, because you've got to get a China-specific VPN. You can't use, like, NordVPN or whatever. You've got to use a Chinese-specific VPN, and then you've got to use hotel internet. So I asked AI how to make this faster, and it's like, "You are on the death trifecta." Hotel internet, VPN, and you're in China behind the great firewall.

And it's just like, "You're not going to make this any faster than it already is. Face the facts."

Gabriel Mizrahi: You've overcome so many obstacles to [00:02:00] make this podcast. So- Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: You've hopped the Berlin Wall.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Truly.

Jordan Harbinger: Ch- Checkpoint Charlie.

Gabriel Mizrahi: In megabits.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Tell me everything. What are your impressions so far? What have you seen?

What does it feel like? You're in a new part of China you've never been to. I, I just want to, I want to know. I haven't heard anything yet.

Jordan Harbinger: So first off, we always go to Taiwan. We started off in Taiwan, adjusted a little to the jet lag. We're going to do another week in Taiwan on the way home.

Gabriel Mizrahi: This is where Jen has family.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, we have family there. And it's funny, because I, I never went from Taiwan to China. I was, I was like, "Oh, Taiwan is basically just sort of like a cleaner version of China that's a little bit less chaotic." Wow, it's, uh, the differences are very, very stark, and I, I could probably talk about that in a future episode as well.

But just Taiwan is much more like Japan in so many ways. There's a lot of Japanese influence. The food is different. The people are different. The mindset is different. The buildings are, I mean, everything is completely different in Taiwan.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And when you say the mindset is different, like, what comes to mind?

How are Taiwanese different?

Jordan Harbinger: So in Taiwan, you, w- nobody would bump into you on [00:03:00] purpose. And here's just a good example, and I'm not trying to... Uh, whenever I compare, I don't want people to think I'm dragging on China, because I love this place. I think it's great. You know I have my issues with the CCP and stuff like that, but- Uh, the people of China have been really friendly and really cool.

There's just a lot of quirky things where you go, "Really?" So I was at a store, this is just one of a zillion examples. I was at a store and I was looking at a product, and you know when you're at a grocery store and you're looking at a product, you lean down to look at a cereal box, for example, and you're like looking at the nutrition facts, and there's like, I don't know, a foot between you and the cereal box because you're reading the cereal box.

In Taiwan or America That's a normal thing to do. Here, if you do that, someone will not only try to walk past that, through that space to get around you, they might even stop there, get their phone out, and start looking at their phone three inches away from your nose.

Gabriel Mizrahi: They don't go around.

Jordan Harbinger: No, they won't even bother doing that.

I'll be looking at food or something and, and somebody will just squeeze right between me and the vendor. And they're not [00:04:00] like, "Oh, excuse me." They're just walking through. And my favorite i- and I say that in air quotes, radio quotes, my favorite is when they walk past you and they go, "Huh," without covering their mouth.

Right in front of your face. And it'll be, like, at a restaurant when you're eating. Someone'll just do that, spit on the floor outside, they'll, if it's an outdoor, and then they'll just keep eating and you're like, "Hey, I was going to eat this- "... but I need a five-minute walk around the block reset after that traumatizing loogie experience."

And it's crazy to me. It's not big city people doing this, by the way. It's, I'm in Dali, China, which is a smaller, it's a tier five city.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I've only spent time in Beijing and Shanghai, and everybody was spitting- Beijing ... on the street. Yes.

Jordan Harbinger: It's a thing. I don't think all Chinese people do it. I mean, it's hard to sort of block 1.3 billion people into one monolith.

It's not usually something- No, it's just that- ... you can do.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah ... spitting and honking loogies there is not verboten. It's very accepted. And I actually talked to one of my expat friends who [00:05:00] lived there for close to a decade, and I was like, "What is the spitting thing about?" He said, I don't know if he's correct, you probably know more than I do, he goes, in Chinese culture, the belief is if there's something on the inside that shouldn't be there, it should be on the outside.

So that's all that you have to do. Yeah. And then you just spit on the street.

Jordan Harbinger: There's a lot of that. There's a lot of, like, chewing with your mouth open, talking with food in your mouth, with food shooting out of your mouth, and there's a lot of nose picking, frankly, in public.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Nose

Jordan Harbinger: picking. From

Gabriel Mizrahi: adults. In plain view.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. It's usually older people that do this, and I think it's just because they're from a different era. The, I'm not seeing people who are in their 30s in China standing around picking their nose. I mean, I'm sure it happens, but it's mostly older people. They'll be sitting in a park and they'll just be picking their nose.

They'll look at what comes out and they'll flick it on the ground. And what's really gross is when they're selling food and doing that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No,

Jordan Harbinger: stop it. Because you're like, "Oh, yeah, you have booger hands and you're picking out cherries and handing them to people walking by, and you're like, 'Try it. Try it. Yummy cherries.'"

Gabriel Mizrahi: I have a feeling the Department of Health would have, feel some type of way about that.

Jordan Harbinger: If that existed- ... here, then they probably have something to [00:06:00] say about it. Um, yeah, there's funny little sort of safety issues where there's a lot of things where you go, "This is horrendously unsafe or in total disrepair."

But then on the other side of the same coin- There will be signs on every staircase that say, "Caution, wet floor. Be careful, there's stairs." So there's all these unnecessary signs. Like, every railing has a sign that says, "No climbing. Don't climb over the railing. Danger, don't climb." And you're thinking, okay, you don't need that sign.

What you need is a railing in front of this giant open sewer that's right here next to where everybody's walking. And they're like, "Nah." You know? Like, "No, we're good. We'll put the railing on the edge of the stairway, but at the far end where you could fall off and literally die, yeah, we're working on it.

Just put a cone in the corner and everybody will be f- everybody'll stay away from

Gabriel Mizrahi: it." Peak China right there.

Jordan Harbinger: It is. It's really funny. And again, I'm in Dali, China. It's a tier four, tier five city. For people who don't know what that means, tier one, think Shanghai, think Beijing. Tier two are these bigger cities that most Americans still have not heard of, but, you know, you can think of, like, Hangzhou or whatever.[00:07:00]

This, they have 10 million-plus people probably still in them, or five million-plus. This is a tier four or tier five city, and it's got 3.3 million people in it. So it's still a big, big place It's just not these megapolises with skyscrapers that have LED colors and TVs sort of spread out over them. Y- you've seen this, right?

You fly into Shanghai, you'll see a set of three skyscrapers, and at the right angle they're all touching, right? They're not really touching, but you can see that they're all touching if you have the right perspective, and they make one massive TV that has, like, a communist flag flying and fluttering on it.

It's crazy.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I have not seen that. That's wild, though. Yeah. Yeah. It's like the set of the movie Her. So you went Taiwan, Shanghai, Lijiang, and now Dali.

Jordan Harbinger: Correct, yeah. Lijiang is another town in the mountains. It's a regional capital. Has a really cool ancient city that looks like an ancient Chinese city, and we did a photo shoot here in Dali in another part which also has, like, an ancient temple.

So those, those of you who are following me on Instagram, I put [00:08:00] a couple stories up where they dressed me up like Raiden from Mortal Kombat, for lack of a better ... term, and Jen was a Chinese empress or princess or something like that. Kind of looks like, if you don't know d- the difference between Japan and China, you'd be like, "Oh, Jen's dressed up as a geisha," or something, right?

You just wouldn't really know the difference. And you get these swords and everything, and you're walking around an ancient castle that looks like something out of Shogun. And a lot of people thought I was in Japan. I don't blame them. It does totally look like Japan. And they give you, they put a pound of makeup on your face, and it's like 60 bucks.

It includes a dinner and a performance. It's a really good... Every, again, everything's super cheap here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dude, you looked so dope in those photos. I loved them. But you were wearing a hat in them, right? Yes. Like, an old imperial Chinese hat.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I think, like, Vietnamese rice farmer hat, but painted with black lacquer.

That's why I say Raiden from Mortal Kombat, because it had that look.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It looked awesome, but I was like, "I don't want to hear another goddamn thing about my headgear" after seeing this photo. Like, the nerve. Yeah. After the years of- [00:09:00] Yeah ... of roasting that you've given me, and you're going to pop up wearing a- ... black rice farmer Mortal Kombat hat, and you're not even going to say anything?

Jordan Harbinger: I know.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Shameless.

Jordan Harbinger: I should have probably made those a post on Instagram instead of a story, because I think they're gone now. I don't know how that works. But I think I can save, I can probably save them somehow without posting them. I don't know.

Gabriel Mizrahi: We need to get those back. Please post them. I need everybody to see them.

Anyway, so you went from there to Shanghai.

Jordan Harbinger: So before that, I was actually in Shanghai. I probably should have mentioned this. I was only in Shanghai for one night, 12 hours, but they have these amazing all-night 24-hour spas. Oh,

Gabriel Mizrahi: yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: And when you say 24-hour spa in the United States, I'm thinking you don't want to go there.

It's probably really dirty, and it's probably all, like, really sketchy gay dudes cruising.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's not a spa, yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it's not really a spa. It's like a, air quotes, "spa," and they have all the... You know, they probably have them in San Francisco or something like that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Not in China. In China, that's a whole culture, yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: It's a whole culture. So we didn't want to get a hotel for 12 hour, a 12-hour layover, so we got this overnight spa. And I was, I was [00:10:00] skeptical. Jen's like, "Are you sure you're going to be fine sleeping in a spa?" I'm like, "I guess so. It's an all-night spa." We show up, and this massive place. I mean, they have hot tubs that can fit m- I'm going to guess 30 to 50 people, but there's six of them.

Three of them are indoors, three of them are outdoors. One of them has a waterfall. They're all different temperatures. There's a cold one, there's a regular pool. There's all these places to lay around on towels, and it's just a bunch of naked dudes. And then the women's side has the exact same thing. So this place could hold 1,000-plus people, I'm guessing, or, you know, several hundred people All eating food.

They have all these... Like, there's cooks, and buffets, and unlimited drinks, and all this stuff. There's an entertainment area where there's a singer singing songs. Oh, wow. And there's video games, and a playroom for the kids. And it's like, all right, if you want to go to sleep, there's all these little rooms, and there's tents everywhere, and there's, like, tree houses that you can sleep in.

That

Gabriel Mizrahi: sounds awesome.

Jordan Harbinger: It was awesome. There was a foot massage that was included. So I get a foot massage, [00:11:00] and they leave, and I'm like, "Oh man, I'm so tired. Where do we sleep?" And they were just like, "Oh, you can sleep anywhere." And I was like, "What do you mean?" And they're like, "You can sleep anywhere. Why don't you just fall asleep right here on this massage bed that I have you on?"

And I was like, "Okay." Nice. She's like, "Do you need a blanket? Do you need water?" I was like, "I could use some water." So they just gave us water, and I just passed out right where I was for about six hours. And then I got up and went and ate breakfast at this restaurant that's there. This

Gabriel Mizrahi: is an incredible alternative to getting a hotel.

It is basically a hotel, but it sounds like a whole experience. Yeah. That's sick.

Jordan Harbinger: It's a whole experience. And by the way, it was 60 bucks including the massage.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's crazy.

Jordan Harbinger: And if you didn't want the massage or any of that, it was 30 bucks just to go there, and do the pools, and all the showers, and sleep and whatnot.

If

Gabriel Mizrahi: you don't want the massage, it's actually $150, but you

Jordan Harbinger: get the massage. Yeah, they insist on giving... They might give you a massage anyway. Yeah, it, it was absolutely nuts. And all the fruit and drinks and stuff was included. The only stuff we paid for was when, like, my father-in-law ordered lobster noodles or something like that, and they...

That was, [00:12:00] like, $6.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Is that a euphemism, or is that actually lobster noodles?

Jordan Harbinger: Lobster on noodles. Yeah, no, I know. You have to ask in China. Like, what's... Is this... Is that a type of massage that I don't want to... I think we're not allowed to, to talk about on the show?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, you want lobster noodles?

Jordan Harbinger: Uh-huh. Okay, hold on.

Let me get the apparatus.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. You've got to go to the other tree house for that.

Jordan Harbinger: That's right.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Wow. That's cool. The one I went to in Shanghai was, I think it was an all-night spa. But it was like, if you just want to do a steam and a massage at 3:30 in the morning, which we did one night for a laugh, it was just that.

It wasn't like this whole hotel and... It sounds like a cruise ship, what you're describing. Never heard of anything like this.

Jordan Harbinger: It is. It's almost like a cruise ship. And what, now we're looking at, uh, a bunch of different stuff. Like I told you, I have to tell you about the shopping, and the electronics, and stuff in China later. Because we, we brought all this Trader Joe's stuff to Taiwan that we gave away. Because a big flex in Taiwan-

Gabriel Mizrahi: I was about to say, they love Trader Joe's over there, right?

Jordan Harbinger: They love Trader Joe's. It's- But

Gabriel Mizrahi: it's not just China. It's in Europe. Everywhere you go around the world, people are obsessed- Oh, really?

with Trader Joe's [00:13:00] merch. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: I didn't know that. Okay, so Taiwan is specifically obsessed with Trader Joe's snacks and, like, tote bags. But it's true, even in the States. Jen went to go buy the tote bags to give to her family members in Taiwan.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Great gift.

Jordan Harbinger: And she had to wait in this huge line. And she's like, "Is this...

Why is there a line to get into Trader Joe's?" And somebody was like, "Oh, they did a new drop. There's new tote bags." And she's like, "Uh, okay."

Gabriel Mizrahi: Wait, this is in the States, or this is over there?

Jordan Harbinger: Yes.

Gabriel Mizrahi: In the States?

Jordan Harbinger: In the States. There's no Trader Joe's here. Yeah, this is in the States in the Bay Area. And the woman was like, "I hope I get them."

And Jen's like, "I'm sure we'll get the tote bags." She goes, "No, this is the third day in a row I've stood here. They sold out the first two days. I've stood in this line for three days in a row."

Gabriel Mizrahi: That is so crazy, because I feel like for decades Trader Joe's was... It's an amazing store, but it's like its brand is kind of dorky, and now it's become this status symbol, these bags.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. It's very weird. You'll walk around Taiwan and you'll see this bougie chick with, like, a Louis Vuitton whatever and all these designer [00:14:00] jewelry and Cartier sunglasses, and she'll have, like, this dirty Trader Joe's tote bag. It's just like you know that thing had, like, cu- unwashed cucumbers and lettuce in it before you got this thing on Eba- Taobao.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I love that in one part of the world, this Trader Joe's bag is a thing that you just throw your Snickerdoodle into, and in another part of the world it's high fashion.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, another thing that Chinese people do that I think is, like, kind of funny and cute is they have these weird calisthenics They'll do it in the morning, they'll do them on the plane.

So whenever you're flying to China, there'll be people on the plane, and they'll, like, reach behind their back and make a fist and start just bashing themselves in the back. Or they'll start slapping their chest, shoulders, arms, legs, and neck.

Gabriel Mizrahi: They love the slapping.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. It's like a whole, like, get the blood going, you know, wake up kind of thing.

Mm-hmm. Men'll do it, women'll do it. It's especially an older generation thing. And they do this kind of... I've only seen massage people do this, but they do this thing where they, I guess they leave a little bit of room in their hands, and they'll smack your back, and it goes like...

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. [00:15:00] That's an Asian massage thing, yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. And they just continually, just continually- ... do this for hours, I don't know, while they're on the plane. And they love masks, especially in Taiwan. If you're sick, people will wear a mask. If you're in China and you're serving food, a lot of people will wear a mask. And they don't just wear those surgical, regular surgical masks.

Since you're wearing a mask every day, maybe you want to be fancy. So people have Louis Vuitton masks.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Trader Joe's mask.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I haven't seen a Trader Joe's mask. But you'll see, like, Adidas, and it's a face mask for keeping germs off of you or off of other people. Why

Gabriel Mizrahi: not?

Jordan Harbinger: I just found that to be a funny contradiction, right?

Because you got somebody who's picking their nose and flicking it on the ground, and, and then, like, not washing their hands and touching food, but then, uh, the person next to them is wearing a mask or a mouth f- face guard so that they don't get any saliva- ... or air on the food that they're serving you, which is not even...

We don't even do that in the States.

Gabriel Mizrahi: This is like the signs on the hike. Yeah. This is the same- Right ... contradiction. It's great.

Jordan Harbinger: Careful, you might fall on these perfectly safe concrete stairs, but [00:16:00] yeah, don't worry about the 17-foot drop-off at the end of the stairs. That, you just, you're on your own. Buyer beware.

Caveat emptor. Yeah, so, and little kids in China also say, "Six seven, six seven." You'll even hear them just say it in English after talking in Chinese. It's so silly.

Gabriel Mizrahi: They were saying it in Chile.

Jordan Harbinger: They were? Wow. That's such a globally bizarre-

Gabriel Mizrahi: This meme is global, and they did the hands too.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, gosh. The six seven hands.

Yeah, the

Gabriel Mizrahi: six seven hands.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Six seven.

Jordan Harbinger: Six seven. We went up this mountain in Lijiang, and it's 10,000 feet. Not a big deal. If you get altitude sickness really easily, you'd probably get a little headache. A lot of people are, around me in my group, uh, my family had headaches. I did not. I'm fine. There's this tourist center, and there's all these Chinese people going up this mountain.

And there's like parkas, fur parkas. We saw people with huge bags full of tanks of oxygen. Not like that you strap on your back, but just that you would hold. Like think giant can of Lysol with like a face apparatus on it. And me and Jen [00:17:00] were like, everybody has oxygen and a fur parka, and I have a raincoat and vent pants from Kettle Mountain that are designed for essentially warmer weather.

And I'm like, but the forecast says 57. So I go up to the info desk and I'm like, "What's the coldest temperature?" And they're like, "Oh, it's this." And I look it up just because it's Celsius. I'm, I'm like I want to make sure I heard correctly. 12 degrees. Yeah. I go up to this mountain, it's 57 degrees. I take my jacket off.

I'm walking around. This Russian guy next to me is wearing shorts And you see these Chinese people with hooded fur parkas, and they're breathing. They're walking around with an oxygen tank in their face

Gabriel Mizrahi: Because they actually need it, or they're just concerned?

Jordan Harbinger: I don't think so. I think they're just, they're concerned and, like, way overly prepared for everything.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Interesting.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. And I thought to myself, "What an ironic thing to do," because you're on top of this mountain, has beautiful waterfalls and lakes everywhere, and there's, like, these native tribes or whatever, these sort of indigenous people that live up there. And this is fresh mountain air, [00:18:00] okay? And these people are breathing Chinese factory air-

in a can instead.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That makes zero sense. I know. Enjoy.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Wait, I have to ask you a question. When you're going up to, for example, this front desk to ask them about the temperature, you're speaking Chinese?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: What's their response to you speaking Chinese?

Jordan Harbinger: If I make a little mistake, often they say, "Wow, your Chinese is really good," which I think is funny, because I'm like, "Well, I just made a mistake."

And I think they're trying to be encouraging, and they're also like, "Wow, this guy's, like, really... He's new and he's struggling with Chinese." But if I don't make any mistakes, they respond without even trying to slow down or use a normal dialect whatsoever.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Because they assume that you're really advanced and it's not a big deal.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Interesting.

Jordan Harbinger: If I make a mistake, I say what, like, what if I say something like the equivalent of, "What is coldest temperature on mountain?" Then they're like, "Oh, wow, your Chinese is good. Oh, yeah, it's going to be 12 degrees on the top of the mountain." But if I say, "Hey, how cold is it up top on the mountain?"

Then they go, "Eh, 12 [00:19:00] degrees," something like that, you know? No big deal.

Mm-hmm.

And I'm like, "Wait, what? What did you just say?" because it's like they're not clear at all. And then I remember one massage guy was like, "Wow, your Chinese is good." And I was like, "I don't understand anything that you're saying." And he goes, "Oh, I'm speaking this local dialect that only the Baizu," which is, like, the local...

It's like a minority that lives in Dali. "This is what we speak." And I don't understand a word of that, obviously. Jen doesn't understand a word of that. My in-laws don't really understand it either. It's very-

Gabriel Mizrahi: Wow ...

Jordan Harbinger: local dialect. Like, it's completely different.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That different from Mandarin?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it's totally different.

Like, none of the words seem to be really the same. People like taxi drivers don't even seem to really know how to speak fully proper Chinese or that they should speak fully proper Chinese. They kind of just don't bother because everybody that they encounter who's not a tourist understands them, and then tourists probably just use Google Translate.

And Chinese tourists probably just put in the app where they're going and don't talk. There's kind of a taxi [00:20:00] driver rule in most countries. Like when I was learning German, I remember towards the end of the year I could really understand all the taxi drivers, and I was like, "I'm so proud of myself," because these guys aren't trying to speak clearly.

They speak kind of like a working class dialect from growing up in communist block apartments on the outskirts of town. I could definitely speak and understand German if I understand them. It's not, that doesn't work in China, because they're like, yeah, I'm no longer speaking what's called like Putonghua, the common Chinese.

Like I'm no longer speaking Mandarin Chinese. I'm speaking this totally different dialect of... It's not just like, oh, English versus English in Texas, the deep, you know, the d- or the Deep South. It's not that. It's like English versus Creole. It's just not the same thing at all. Totally different dialects. If you understand it, it's completely different.

Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Completely different universe. Have you come across any strange food on this trip?

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. Uh, what I find everywhere here is durian, which if you don't know what it is, it's a fruit that smells terrible. Smells like an outhouse kind of when they cut it open. And I'm not exaggerating, it really does smell like [00:21:00] an outhouse.

This isn't so much in China, but in, in hotel rooms in other parts of Southeast Asia, there's signs that say, "If you open a durian in here, you will be fined $100." Because they basically have to open all the windows for, like, three days. They can't rent the room to anyone else. They've got to, like, spray, I don't know what you'd call, Febreze or something probably all over the room.

They might even have to replace anything it touched, like sheets or anything, because it smells like poo. It smells like a outhouse.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Why do they even pick and sell this fruit?

Jordan Harbinger: It's tasty, actually.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, it tastes good, but it smells bad? That's so weird.

Jordan Harbinger: I would say the closest approximation would be l- like a good cheese where you go, "Oh my God, that's disgusting."

And it's like, yeah, but what if you spread it on a cracker? And you're like, "Okay, actually it tastes pretty good."

Gabriel Mizrahi: So what do they put it on?

Jordan Harbinger: Durian, well, you just eat it or they'll put it on pizza. So you'll get this, like, stinky cheese pizza- ... with little bits of fruit on it, and it's actually really good, but it smells bad.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's like their Hawaiian pizza is with durian?

Jordan Harbinger: I think so, yeah. And it's kind of... It must be a local thing because they have a [00:22:00] crap load of durian around here, because it's, they have durian everything. Durian drinks, durian coffee, durian pizza. You'll walk around the corner and you'll go, "Oh yeah, there's a durian vendor around the corner."

And sure enough, you'll turn around and there'll be a truck full of durian, and you smell it. You smell it 100 meters away. It stinks.

Gabriel Mizrahi: What a weird detail.

Jordan Harbinger: Another thing is they'll be like, "Oh, hey, you should try this," and you'll go and you'll see this vendor that sells scorpions that are roasted, larva of various kinds of moths or something like that, caterpillars that are all grilled.

And some of that is touristy nonsense I think. I don't think that locals are like, "Ah, you know what I want is a bag of scorpions." But you will see people walking around munching on scorpions and larva and stuff like that around here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Wow.

Jordan Harbinger: So another thing that is actually sad is I, I saw there's all these restaurants, and they have, like, Tupperware buckets out front, and there'll be a fish in there that someone's going to eat that day, or giant frogs that someone's going to eat that day.

And then I see stuff that's like, [00:23:00] what is that? It looks almost like a little, or I shouldn't say little, a giant mud puppy or a giant salamander. So I, I Google Image searched this, which is something I forgot you could even do. Rarely do I see anything in my daily life that I can't identify, right? But China's one of those places.

So I take a picture, I throw it into Google Image Search on my phone, and it's like giant Chinese salamander. And I'm like, "Oh, that's so weird that you can eat this." And then it, below that it says critically endangered.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh no.

Jordan Harbinger: And I'm like, "Oh no." And every restaurant on this street has 10 of them in a bucket.

Various buckets, like, all just on top of each other slowly dying. I

Gabriel Mizrahi: don't like this part.

Jordan Harbinger: No. And so I asked, I was like, "Hey, where do you get these?" And they're like, "Why?" And I was like, "Well, is this a common animal?" And I think they sort of read between the lines and she's like, "No, we breed those for food only."

And I was like, "I hope you're not lying, but there's so many swampy areas around here that I don't know if I believe you."

Gabriel Mizrahi: Bro, you need to send that photo to Rachel [00:24:00] Newer. Get this lady on the case.

Jordan Harbinger: That's right. Yeah, the, uh, wildlife trafficking gal Yeah, because I'm thinking maybe you do breed them, maybe you do, but maybe you just go in your backyard of your farm and catch them in the swamp, and then you tell everybody that you breed them because it's illegal for you to be selling these, especially as food.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm sure China is full of that kind of stuff. That's sad.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Let's move on.

Jordan Harbinger: It is sad. They're like the size of a small dog, and it's a salamander. It's

Gabriel Mizrahi: crazy. Ugh, that makes it worse. That makes it- Yeah ... so much worse. That's super sad. I don't like it.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, I have to end on a positive note. What else have you got?

What else happened? Did you see anything else un- interesting?

Jordan Harbinger: So yeah, I was walking through the lobby of my hotel on the way to breakfast, and I saw this little kid rolling around on the carpet, and I walked up to him and I said, "I'm going to step on you," you know, just playing with him. And then the dad came out of nowhere and was like, "Oh, it's okay.

He's part of the carpet now." And we had a laugh about that. And I saw the same guy later in the restaurant of the hotel. The next day he goes, "Dude, you look so familiar. Do I know you?" And I said, "Uh, I don't know, but I get that a lot. Do you listen to podcasts?" And he's like, [00:25:00] "I do all the time." I said, "Yeah, my name's Jordan Harbinger."

He goes, "Oh, of course I know who you are." And he's like, "Man, I, I hope I see you later. I've got to take my kid, uh, upstairs, whatever, to change his diaper." So then I saw him again, and he was like, "Hey, why don't we go out to lunch or something? My wife and I are here for the whole week. Our kids are at this Mandarin school."

So we went out to lunch, and it turned out that we have mutual friends, and he's from LA and he listens to the podcast. So I ran into a show fan in- Love that ... China in a tier five city.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. That's so random. That's beautiful. I love that.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. And there's a whole expat group that goes to Dali every year with their kids from the US and Canada, and they send their kids to camps to learn Chinese, and there's a bunch of people from all over.

So my son has, who's... By the way, they have these amazing video watches that are, every kid has this. It's basically a FaceTime watch. You can use it to call your parents or call your friends, and the parents have full control over it via an app, so you can block it during school. You can tell them who they can and can't call.

You can block incoming calls from unknown numbers, all this stuff. But [00:26:00] they can call us and be like, "Mommy, I want this," or, "I'm thirsty," or something like that, and you're like, "Ask the counselor for water." You know, or they can call their friends after camp. It's cool. So anyway, every expat kid has this, and so we start meeting their parents, right?

And they're like, "Oh yeah, we're from Toronto," or, "We're from LA," or, "We're from the Bay Area." So w- we've made all these sort of like WeChat, which is the Chinese Facebook, I guess, for lack of a better word, friends with all these other parents, and they're like, "Yeah, we come here every year. This is our third year in a row, second year in a row."

So there's this big expat thing here, and th- you'll see these people at expat places. Like, if you go to a, an Australian-owned pizza place, there'll be somebody there who's a parent of a kid that, you know, your kid goes to camp with or whatever. It's a whole thing, and it's weird because it's a smaller town.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Do you see yourself coming back every year with the family to do these camps and-

Jordan Harbinger: I think so. I think instead of spending two weeks in Dali, because it is a little bit slower than we would like, we'll probably spend the same one week here, uh, and we'll do the same week in Taiwan, maybe then do a week in Shanghai And then a week in another city.

So there's other camps [00:27:00] and, uh, that people have recommended in Xinjiang, which is the place where the Uyghurs live, where there may or may not be a effort to wipe out the Muslim population by the Chinese government. And there's other cities like Xi'an or towns that I would never normally go to that have camps for kids, and it's a great way to go, "All right.

I'll spend a week there. My kid's gone during the day, so I can explore, and they're learning Chinese, and I'm w- learning Chinese as well." So yeah, we'll probably come back for a month every year until China invades Taiwan and it's unsafe for Americans to travel freely here. I don't know. That could be next year, though.

Who knows?

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's amazing. This sounds dope, dude. Sounds like you're having a pretty, pretty good trip, hitting a lot of notes.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, hitting a lot of notes. There's a lot of small-time, I guess you could call them, scams. You just have to be careful. We're with my wife's aunt, and she's always negotiating things.

She's like, "Oh, I heard, I heard you say this was 20, not 25." And she's like, "Okay, fine," because she figures she can up, they can up-charge tourists. It kind of doesn't matter because you're talking about 80 cents. But yeah, it is nice to not get totally [00:28:00] taken for a ride. Speaking of scams, actually, as I mentioned in the subreddit for the show, somebody's actually emailing people pretending to be me.

They're sending emails from the email address jordan.harbinger.podcast@gmail.com. So the scam is basically come on the show, and then if you say, "Yeah, I'm interested," they tell you about all these logistics, and then they say, "Oh, by the way, there's a processing fee associated with onboarding and production."

Obviously, real shows don't do that. So if you get an email from anyone saying they're me that is not from jordanharbinger.com, just ignore it. It, it's annoying, and it's really skeezy, but there's not much I can do other than warn people about this And I know that some people have said, "Oh, do you not sell sponsored episodes?

Because I've, I listen to your show, and I've heard a sponsored episode." Yeah, we sell sponsored episodes, but you're looking at five, six figures for something like that, and it's fully disclosed, and the price is the f- in the first email. And I don't do cold outreach to random people pretending I [00:29:00] want them on the show and then offer them a paid spot.

That's not how this works. That's a big brand comes to a sales agency that comes to me and says, "We want an integration with BetterHelp where you interview your dad," and it's this whole thing. It's not, "Hey, I really like your book. By the way, if you send me 300 bucks, you can come on the show." That's what the scammer's doing, and we don't obviously do anything like that.

So there's nothing I can really do about it. I tried to report the way that they take payment, and it, surprise, surprise, it's a guy in Nigeria whose name I actually have now, so I might do a little bit of, like, scam baiting somehow. I'm open to ideas. Wise Transfer, which is how he gets paid, said that since he's using a different email to send the scam and then he asks for payment to a separate email, they just washed their hands of the whole thing and said, "It's not our problem.

We can't do anything about it." Which I think is bullshit. I think that's BS. I think that's a way for them to take scam, uh, illicit funds and pretend like it's not for a scam even though I've connected the dots for them completely. So I think they should sort of be ashamed of [00:30:00] themselves, but I also understand they have policies, and they can't just ban somebody's name.

So whatever. Don't pay people money to come on this show. I don't reach out to invite people and then charge for it. Anyway, I'm making a lot of memories here in China, and speaking of things made in China, let's hear a quick word from our sponsors, and then we'll kick things off. Xie xie. This episode is also sponsored in part by BetterHelp.

We have come a long way when it comes to talking about mental health. People are more willing to discuss stress, burnout, anxiety, and the challenges that they're dealing with. But what's interesting is that even though we talk about it more, actually reaching out for support can still feel like a hurdle.

BetterHelp recently released its 2026 State of Stigma report, and the findings really stood out. 2,000 Americans surveyed revealed that 85% believe getting support is wise, yet 74% say that society discourages people from doing so. One of the ways we can change that is by treating mental health support the same way we treat any other kind of support.

If a friend was struggling, would you encourage them to talk to somebody? I know many of us would. BetterHelp connects [00:31:00] people with licensed therapists based on their needs and preferences through a brief questionnaire, and I mean brief. It takes, like, a few minutes at most. There's over 30,000 therapists on the platform and have helped over six million people globally.

Live sessions have an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 based on more than 1.7 million client reviews. And if your first match isn't the right fit, switch anytime. Don't let stigma stand in the way of support. Start therapy with BetterHelp. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/jordan. That's betterH-E-L-P.com/jordan.

This episode is also sponsored by DripDrop. You might think electrolytes are mostly for athletes or really intense workouts, but for me, DripDrop is more of an everyday reset. Travel, long workdays, staying active, or that midday slump where water alone just doesn't seem to cut it, that's when I reach for DripDrop.

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They also just dropped Zero Sugar+, a breakthrough formula with an advanced blend of six key electrolytes, 15 essential vitamins and nutrients, and no sugar or artificial sweeteners. There are 16 original flavors and eight Zero Sugar+ options, my favorite being the strawberry lemonade. Thank me later. And on a personal note, DripDrop was a lifesaver on our trip to China.

Something we ate did not sit well with us. Surprise, surprise. Probably a bug, a slug, or something that rhymes with those two things, and we spent a few days in full digestive distress. I'll spare you the details. Just use your imagination, folks. But we were very glad we had DripDrop packed to help us stay hydrated.

And right now, DripDrop is offering podcast listeners 20% off your first order. Go to dripdrop.com and use promo code JORDAN. That's dripdrop.com, promo code JORDAN for 20% off. Stock up now at dripdrop.com, promo code JORDAN. Also, in case you don't know, there's a subreddit for the show if you want to jump into discussions with other listeners about specific episodes or anything about the show.

Again, that's where I posted that PSA about the [00:33:00] scam. You can always find us on the jordanharbinger subreddit. All right, Gabe, what's the first thing out of the mailbag?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, I've had health issues my whole life. I've had inflammatory conditions like asthma and eczema for as long as I can remember.

When I was in ninth grade, I had an asthmatic flare-up and was put on prednisone as usual to treat it. But the combination of hormones raging during puberty and a rare side effect of steroids landed me in the hospital once again. After six months of being inpatient, the doctors realized that I was suffering from a steroid-induced psychosis.

Jordan Harbinger: Holy smokes. I've never heard of that. That is terrifying.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Once they figured out the right mix of medications that would get me through this episode, I slowly went back to school. First school from home, then gradually back to in-classroom learning I graduated from high school on time and was looking forward to playing football at a Division III college.

My goal was to get a degree in [00:34:00] marketing, get a nice job, and start a new chapter in my life. My sophomore year, I started dating the person who would become my wife and got a little playing time on the field. But I ended up tearing ligaments in my knee and ankle, sidelining me, so I decided to focus more on school and on my future.

The summer between my sophomore and junior year, I was offered a house painting franchise to bring to the college city where I lived. I took the offer and employed five people to paint houses for the summer. My second summer as a franchise manager, I employed an average of 10 people and had two crews going.

My then-girlfriend, now wife, helped me now and then. Fast-forward to my fourth year in college. After realizing that running a painting business wasn't my thing, I turned down the offer for a bigger territory and took a job at Best Buy as a computer salesperson. During finals week, I didn't get much sleep.

I had erratic behavior, and I maxed out all my credit cards in one day. I had delusions of grandeur and thought that [00:35:00] I was going to own Best Buy. This was my first manic episode.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, man. That is intense.

Gabriel Mizrahi: My coworkers were concerned and got ahold of my girlfriend, and I was hospitalized once again.

Everything that I bought, my manager returned. My credit cards wouldn't be maxed out after all. This was one less thing that I would have to think about while in the hospital. I was then diagnosed with unipolar mania and put on a medication that got me out of the mania and out of the hospital.

Jordan Harbinger: So unipolar mania meaning only mania, no depressive episodes?

Gabriel Mizrahi: No depressive ep- apparently, that's a thing. The person swings up but never down.

Jordan Harbinger: I've never heard of this.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I had never heard of this either. I read up on it, and it sounds like researchers have debated for a while whether unipolar mania is a subtype of bipolar disorder or maybe it's a completely distinct disorder or maybe some people think it's just an early phase of bipolar disorder before the depression eventually appears.

The DSM-5 does not recognize unipolar mania as its own [00:36:00] official diagnosis. Apparently, if someone has had even one full manic episode, they're generally diagnosed with bipolar I even if they've never been depressed.

Jordan Harbinger: Interesting, but it is different because they don't have those dips.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Which is why some researchers think it obscures a potentially distinct condition, which our friend here seems to have.

But also interesting, there's some evidence that people with unipolar mania differ from typical bipolar patients. There are some studies that have found that people with unipolar mania like him have more psychotic symptoms and more grandiosity, but less suicidality, less anxiety, less rapid cycling, and they sometimes have better long-term functioning.

Jordan Harbinger: Got it. So it kind of is its own thing, but the classification and treatment might be, might not be very different.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So he goes on, "I am very grateful for the medication that brought me back to reality, except for one side effect: weight gain. I gained over 200 pounds while on the medicine and developed type 2 diabetes as a result."

Jordan Harbinger: That's a brutal [00:37:00] side effect. I'm sorry to hear that. "

Gabriel Mizrahi: All of this while my girlfriend stayed by my side."

Jordan Harbinger: Dang. Well, she's a real one. "

Gabriel Mizrahi: We married in 2002. I graduated with a bachelor's in marketing in 2004, and we had our first daughter in 2005. Our oldest son was born in 2007, our youngest son in 2011. I needed to lose this weight, not only for me, but for my family.

So in 2010, after many failed attempts to lose weight, I had gastric bypass surgery. I went to therapy to make sure that I would be able to comply with the weight loss surgery diet. I lost the weight that I had gained and became a stay-at-home dad when our daughter was born." Then recently my son, who's 18 now, needed an upper endoscopy done.

I went with him to his appointment, and the doctor asked if there was a family history of throat issues. While technically we haven't had throat issues, I have had an endoscopy done along with a colonoscopy because they wanted to make sure that the bypass was still okay. I told our son that I've had one done and it's nothing to be [00:38:00] worried about and that he'd do fine.

My son asked why I had the endoscopy done, and I redirected the question to something else. None of my kids know about my unipolar mania diagnosis or the gastric bypass surgery. I don't think that they would judge me. I'm just uncomfortable talking to them about this. There's a stigma that goes along with both of these, and I'm not sure that I want to burden them with this information.

However, when taking family medical histories, it might be important in the future for them to know about my diagnoses. Now that my children are young adults, how much do I tell them about my medical history? Or do I only tell them if something comes up? Signed, Feeling Jittery About Sharing My History But Knowing It Might Be Trickery and Lead to a Greater Injury To Not Do It Swiftly Before It Becomes an Inquiry.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow, what a journey you've been on, man. This is pretty wild. So first off, I'm sorry you went through all this health stuff over the years, that it led to psychosis and mania. I can only imagine how [00:39:00] terrifying all of that must have been for you, of course, but also for your family growing up, your wife, and then you get the weight gain on the medication.

It's just a lot for one person to go through, and it's awful, frankly. And that said, it sounds like you've moved through all of this extremely well, all things considered. You still managed to achieve what you wanted to achieve. You took proactive steps to lose the extra weight, and your wife was a huge part of all that.

I think you're one lucky dude. So this is an interesting question, whether to tell your kids about all this. On one hand, I think they deserve to know that they might have inherited something that they need to keep an eye on. Like if they ever need to take prednisone, which I, I took for like a sinus infection that swole up something back in the day, they can tell their doctor, "Hey, you know, my dad had steroid-induced psychosis once.

Maybe we should explore other options." Or, "Sure, let's try it, but you need to keep a close eye on me, and we need to have a plan." I think it would also be good for them to know that if they ever started to have racing thoughts, grandiose ideas, weird impulsive behavior, they start sleeping three hours a night, they've got to tell a friend or a family member, they've [00:40:00] got to see a psychiatrist because Dad has this too.

It's not from studying too hard. It's not going to go away on its own. You know, don't ignore it. Now, we don't know if your condition is hereditary. It might just be a strange quirk of your body and you didn't pass it on to your kids. But I read up on this briefly, and the latest research does suggest that, yeah, unipolar mania, like bipolar disorder, it does tend to run in families, and there's a significant genetic component to these disorders overall.

So if I were your kids, I think I'd want to know. And if telling them what you went through helps them avoid psychosis or mania, which as you know can be very scary and disruptive, it can lead to further complications. Yeah, I think it's worth telling them, and I think they deserve to know.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Not just for them, but for their future children too, if this is genetic.

Jordan Harbinger: 100%, man. Also, sometimes certain substances can trigger stuff like this. I remember I went-- I grew up with a girl, and she had some kind of epilepsy that was totally under control and never really had to worry about it as a kid. And then she went to college, and I think she [00:41:00] smoked marijuana a couple of times, and she started having these seizures.

And she told her parents, and they were like, "Yeah, you have epilepsy." And it was basically, I think, I don't know if dormant is the right word, but it, it-- the marijuana triggered this, and now she had severe epilepsy for a while. She had to get it back under control, which is terrible. I think she would've avoided trying marijuana if she'd known that that was going to do it On the other hand, I don't know, man, disclosing all this

Gabriel Mizrahi: What if they never experience any of this?

Then what do they do with that?

Jordan Harbinger: Right, and then they go their whole lives low-key panicking that any moment they're going to flip into mania or have some kind of hallucination, or they avoid medication that could help them because they're terrified they're going to induce psychosis. I mean, that would be very unfortunate. Because even if family members inherit the gene, they don't necessarily inherit the exact same presentation or any presentation. These genes often transmit vulnerability patterns rather than perfectly identical diagnoses.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Also, environment and triggers still matter, like your friend with the substance or [00:42:00] someone else studying too hard, being stressed out and underslept or whatever.

So even if somebody inherits the vulnerability, life events, environment, biology, they all influence whether episodes actually end up emerging.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, but honestly, all things considered, I think you have more to gain by sharing this information than by hiding it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I completely agree.

Jordan Harbinger: And if my math is mathing, your kids are 21, 18, and 15 now.

They're definitely old enough to have this conversation.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Definitely. I mean, his 18-year-old son is asking him medical questions directly, and our friend is dodging them. I think if his son is asking, he's ready to hear the truth. I'm just going to guess that he probably noticed that Dad got a little cagey when he asked about the endoscopy, so he's probably wondering, like, "What is this about?"

Jordan Harbinger: For sure. But look, I wouldn't say to your kids, "Hey, I started hearing voices when I was a kid because they gave me prednisone, and then I thought I was going to become the CEO of Best Buy and nearly bankrupted myself when I was in college. So hey, watch out." I would frame it more like, "I want to share a couple things about my medical history that you should know.

It's nothing you need to be actively afraid of. It's very possible none of this will ever happen to you, but this is information I want you to [00:43:00] have so you can take good care of yourself I would be specific about the triggers that led to these episodes, steroids, stress, lack of sleep, whatever else it was, so they can make sure that they're aware of those inputs.

I would also be specific about the symptoms you experienced, so if they ever go through anything similar, they can stop and go, "Ah, okay, this sounds like what Dad told me about. Time to ask for help." And by the way, I would also tell them about the autoimmune and inflammatory issues, because those are genetic too.

So I wouldn't wait until something comes up to tell them, because then it'll be too late to get out ahead of it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Plus they might resent you for keeping it a secret. That's another problem.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, man, I, I think I would. Like, "Oh, you coulda told me not to get this medication and now I have a life-altering mental health issue.

Thanks for telling me." You should tell 'em.

Gabriel Mizrahi: There's another good reason to tell them, which is I have a feeling it's going to bring you guys closer. It's going to set a good example for your kids. And for you, it's probably going to feel like a huge relief, because you're sitting on these secrets.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, one big reason he hasn't said anything is that he's ashamed.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Right, like you said, there's a stigma and now he doesn't want to [00:44:00] talk about it.

Jordan Harbinger: And he might be right about that stigma to some degree. People might have all sorts of opinions about this stuff. I mean, sure.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But if he's carrying that around, he's internalized that, now he's ashamed and so he's anticipating that his kids are going to have the worst possible opinion as well.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, but he doesn't need to be ashamed. I mean, this wasn't his fault.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No, and if he tells them, I think he'll be modeling some really nice stuff for them, you know, vulnerability and openness around his health. And if he keeps withholding these facts, to your point, Jordan- That might create some unintended consequences for his kids later.

Confusion, mistrust, a sense that there was this whole part of Dad's life that they weren't invited to even though they sensed there was something going on. I would sidestep that.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. You don't need to come out to your family as the mentally ill dad or whatever. You can present yourself as the dad who went through serious medical and psychiatric challenges and learned how to manage them responsibly.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And here's what I learned through that experience. Here's what I could've done better. Here's what I'd want you to know if this ever happens to you. Exactly.

Jordan Harbinger: Honestly, I think that's going to be a pretty powerful conversation for all of them. They'll understand their father more. He'll feel less [00:45:00] ashamed.

They'll hopefully feel more prepared. I think that's the way to go.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The only other thing I would say is I can't tell from your letter if you're still on medication for the unipolar mania. The way you worded your letter makes it sound like you might have gone off of it, but I'm not sure.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, because he said, "I gained over 200 pounds while on the medicine."

Yeah, it does sound like he might have gone off of the medicine.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So a little unclear. We might be wrong. I understand that he might have wanted to be done with it after these side effects, but if you did go off the medication, I just would say I hope you're working closely with your psychiatrist, and I hope they're on board with this and you're all keeping a close eye on any new symptoms because it sounds like you do have a predisposition for certain disorders.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I'm a little confused about that, Gabe. So the psychosis he experienced as a teenager, that's got to be related to the mania he experienced as an adult, right? Or, or was he just unlucky when he was a kid?

Gabriel Mizrahi: I have the same question. I guess it's impossible for us to know, but I did look into this a little bit and apparently a lot of psychiatrists would consider later spontaneous mania potentially [00:46:00] meaningful in a person with a history of steroid-induced psychosis.

Jordan Harbinger: Interesting. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The steroid reaction might have revealed an underlying mood component that later emerged, you know, independently.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, like the steroids might have triggered the first episode, but there was something there already just waiting to emerge.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think that's especially true if the earlier steroid episode looked strongly manic and if any episodes recur later in life without substances or medications.

Jordan Harbinger: Which is what happened, right? The manic episode in college, that wasn't precipitated by any medication or substance. It was just finals stress and lack of sleep.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And that's why I hope he's continuing to be treated appropriately, whatever that looks like.

Jordan Harbinger: This is sort of beside the point, but I'm also very curious about the weight gain.

I mean d- over 200 pounds, Type 2 diabetes. I know weight gain is a common side effect of a lot of medications. I know some medications can do a number on appetite and glucose regulation, insulin function, but that just sounds pretty extreme to me. And I, look, I'm talking out of school here. I'm not a psychiatrist.

I don't know how any of these medications work or the mechanisms or [00:47:00] anything. But I just want to ask, while you were on this medication, were you also eating well? Were you exercising? Were you giving yourself every possible advantage? A- and I ask, look, I'm thrilled that you reversed the weight gain. Gastric bypass surgery is just one of those miracles of modern science for a lot of people.

But- I also want to make sure that you're making the necessary lifestyle changes and continue to take care of yourself a- and make sure the weight doesn't come back, and fully enjoy the benefits of these changes. Because everything I've read about these procedures and the drugs, whether it's gastric bypass or GLP-1 drugs, if you don't make real changes to your lifestyle, you can undo a lot of the benefits or just give yourself another set of problems entirely.

For example, with both GLP-1s and gastric bypass surgery, some people, and look, I'm not implying you're one of these people at all, but I know it happens to a l- a lot of users of these medications, sometimes they just eat less, but then they still eat crap, and they end up with muscle wasting and bone loss, and they've lost the weight, but they're not really healthy, and it's a big problem.

So just something to keep an eye on. [00:48:00] Anyway, I'm very sorry that you went through all this, man. It's very intense, but I'm super proud of you for weathering the storm and taking steps to get better, and I think your family will be, too, and they're going to be grateful for the medical information. So good luck with the conversations.

I think it's going to be good for all of you. Sending you and your family a big hug and wishing you all the best. You know what else is out of control? The manically good deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show, and you won't have to max out your credit cards to enjoy them.

We'll be right back.

This episode is sponsored in part by Northwest Registered Agent. When you're starting a business, it's easy to think the hard part is filing the paperwork, but really you need a complete business identity from day one, a real business address, website, professional email, phone number, operating agreement, and a way to keep your personal information private.

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Visit northwestregisteredagent.com/jordanfree and start using free resources to build something amazing. Get more with Northwest Registered Agent at northwestregisteredagent.com/jordanfree. This episode is also sponsored by AG1. Summer travel is great, but it definitely throws off the routine. You're sleeping in different beds, eating at weird times, dealing with long days, late nights, whatever airport food situation you've been forced into.

For me, that's where AG1 is nice because it's the one thing that stays consistent. It's about 30 seconds, one scoop, eight ounces of water and [00:50:00] done. I use AG1 because it gives me a simple way to support my nutrition when the rest of the day is totally unpredictable. AG1 is a daily health drink with a multivitamin, pre and probiotic, superfoods, antioxidants.

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That's drinkag1.com/jordan. Thank you for listening and supporting the show. Your support of the advertisers keeps the lights on around here in China, I guess. All the deals and discounts are searchable and clickable on the website that I can't really access from here, jordanharbinger.com/deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show.

Now back to Feedback Friday. [00:51:00] Okay, next up

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I met my wife back in college, and we've been married for over 10 years now. We have two great kids, ages 8 and 10. For the most part, we still work really well together as a team to run our household and raise our children. We occasionally have fights, but it never gets to be unbearable or destructive.

However, behind closed doors, I am profoundly unhappy. What I needed from a relationship back in my early 20s is very different from what I need now. Over the years, our dynamic has morphed entirely into a platonic friendship. PDA is nonexistent, and our sex life has completely stopped. I feel like I'm living with a co-parent and a roommate rather than a romantic partner.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I'm very sorry to hear that, man. The pitfall of so many married couples. Happens all the time.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Recently, the emotional toll of this void came to a head. I was at a tech conference in Vegas and ended up meeting a woman with whom [00:52:00] I instantly hit it off.

Jordan Harbinger: Ooh, boy.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Ugh, what happens in Vegas ends up on Feedback Friday.

Am I right?

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly, yes. Feedback Friday, no antibiotics necessary. You don't have to file a report with the CDC when you're spreading that sweet Feedback Friday tea.

Gabriel Mizrahi: To be clear, absolutely nothing physical happened at the conference.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, that's a bummer. No, I'm ki- k- I kid.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Bad influence, Jordan. Keep it quiet.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, uh, sorry.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But we exchanged information and kept in touch after we both flew home.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. That's the real transmission. Those hidden WhatsApp chats.

Gabriel Mizrahi: As we got to chatting, I learned that she's in an eerily similar boat. She also has two kids and is feeling trapped in an unhappy relationship of her own The catch is that she lives out in Indiana while I'm in California.

Over the last few weeks, our text messages have escalated. They've gone from casual check-ins to getting incredibly deep and flirty. Honestly, it's starting to feel like an actual relationship.

Jordan Harbinger: Mm. Well, it is a [00:53:00] relationship of sorts.

Gabriel Mizrahi: This connection has woken up a part of me that's been dormant for years, but it's bringing up a lot of confusion and guilt.

The risks of dismantling my family are huge. A huge part of me wants to hold onto the marriage for the kids' sake so we don't blow up their lives, but I'm completely lost about how to overcome this lingering unhappiness in my marriage. Is emotional cheating a real thing, and is that what I'm doing right now?

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. Yes, it's a real thing, and yes, that's what you're doing right now. I'm not judging you, by the way, at all. I just want to answer your question honestly. Why you're emotionally cheating and whether it's fair that you feel drawn to this person and what to do about it, those are separate questions.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Given that I feel like I might eventually leave my wife down the road anyway, is this long-distance connection something I can or should try to sustain for the long term?

Jordan Harbinger: What an interesting way to phrase that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I feel like I might eventually leave my wife.

Jordan Harbinger: He's phrasing it like it's almost a done deal.

Gabriel Mizrahi: A

Jordan Harbinger: done [00:54:00] deal. But he's not ... Yeah, he's not saying, "I've made up my mind. It's happening. I just need a couple months to get my ducks in a row."

Gabriel Mizrahi: He's still very much figuring this out.

Jordan Harbinger: Or using this as a k- kind of excuse like, "Well, since I might do this, what I'm doing is okay." That, I'm not saying he's doing that. That's just a possibility, but I think it makes talking to this other woman riskier and messier.

Gabriel Mizrahi: How should I navigate these next steps? Signed, Keeping These Feelings at Bay and Debating Whether My Marriage Is Irreversibly Frayed.

When my head is being turned the other way

Jordan Harbinger: Right. Well, fascinating situation. It's funny, Gabe, his letter is unique in certain ways. Meeting a woman at this conference, she's in Indiana, all that. But his overall situation, this dilemma he finds himself in, it's so universal, right? This is the story of so many married couples.

He didn't tell us why they ended up here. I'm sure their particular story is unique, but I think this is a familiar arc for most people, and it's really tough, man. B- between work and kids and the responsibilities of managing a family, it can be really hard to keep the spark alive. It's kind of like last priority for most people.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, that's what [00:55:00] I hear. And also to grow together, it sounds like. His needs are very different now. He's in a different place.

Jordan Harbinger: That's the other complicated variable. Are you guys growing, and are you growing in a compatible way or in a, you know, we're going separate directions and we're different people now kind of way?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Such an interesting question, like what does it take to sustain a relationship for decades when it comes to, like, personal evolution, you know? Is it evolving along similar lines, or is it making room for both people to evolve in different ways, but then, I don't know, staying connected on a few key dimensions?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, like you could say it's about staying connected on a few key dimensions, but then if you're staying connected on those dimensions for decades, does that require the two parties to not change too dramatically? I don't, I don't know. It's tough. I mean, all that to say I feel for you and your wife. But you're not alone in this pattern.

And that said, how you navigate this period, what you decide to do, how you communicate with your wife, how you conduct yourself, especially with this other woman, all that is just going to make a huge difference in the quality of your outcome, whatever choice you end up making. I think you [00:56:00] know that if you continue engaging with this woman, whether or not you guys actually meet up, you're going to invite some significant risks.

The biggest one, of course, is that your wife finds out, and she's probably going to be pretty hurt, and then the narrative that's going to define the end of your marriage is going to be, "Well, he cheated on me," even if the story is more complicated than that. And that could have ripple effects on the divorce agreement, on custody of your kids, on your reputation with your friends and your family.

I mean, it can get bad. But even if she doesn't find out, I think you're going to be left with even more stress and guilt, and that's not going to be fun to live with either. So there's kind of no good scenario here if you keep talking to this woman while you're married. That said, I do understand why you're in this situation.

I can appreciate why this new person with different qualities, a similar conflict, without the same history that you have with your wife, I get why that person is compelling to you, and I can imagine why you're compelling to her I say that not to necessarily endorse this relationship. I just say that to say I understand why this relationship is meaningful to you.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I mean, these things [00:57:00] don't just happen by accident.

Jordan Harbinger: So my advice to you is this. I would think of this new woman as a person who's generating some really important data for you rather than a truly viable option. And what I mean by that is if you're this compelled to explore things with her even emotionally, then she's revealing something important about you, what you want in a partner, what you want from life, what you can offer.

Like you said, this connection has woken up a part of me that's been dormant for years. What that part is beyond just, I don't know, dopamine and butterflies, that's super important for you to name and understand for you The other thing she's revealing is there's obviously something that needs your attention in your marriage.

And it sounds to me like you guys have to make some changes in order to do right by each other. I understand that this woman feels like a viable option to you. I suppose in a way she is a viable option. You could leave your wife for her. She could leave her husband for you. Who knows? Maybe you guys would be great together or not.

You don't know. I don't know if there's any reliable data out there about this, but the first person you meet when you're in an unhappy [00:58:00] marriage, the success of those relationships has got to be in the single digits, you know, the long-term success. I'm not saying that this relationship is definitely doomed.

I'm not saying it's all in your head. I'm just saying your situation is probably informing a lot of your feelings about this person/she's revealing feelings you weren't fully in touch with. So given all that, I think you have more to gain by really taking stock of what she's revealing about your current situation than you do by actually exploring things with her.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I completely agree, and that's especially true because he does not know at this stage how things would actually go with this new person.

Jordan Harbinger: It's so abstract. It's so aspirational.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly. This woman represents something that his current situation is not offering him, or he gets to be a certain way with this other person he can't be with his wife, with his family.

But he doesn't know how they would actually be together if this relationship even has legs, and also they don't know what new challenges, and there will be challenges, there always are, will pop up if they did get together.

Jordan Harbinger: It's easy to be like, "I think this could be my person," when you don't have to pay bills [00:59:00] together or clean out the garage or manage your kids' schedules together or any of that.

It's all fun and games when you're sexting on Signal, which I know he's not doing, but you get my point.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So there's almost certainly an element of fantasy at play here that's important for him to keep an eye on too.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, man. Idealization is at its peak at this stage. His mind is probably full of a lot of ideas about how this could be in an alternate universe.

So really the question before you is what changes do you want to make in your life? I'm talking apart from this woman. Now, what those changes are, that's up to you. If there's a world where you and your wife could work on things, talk about where you guys have ended up, find a way back to each other, meet each other's needs better, maybe go to couples therapy, that might be the move.

If you feel it is truly over, you guys are just fundamentally different people with different needs and there's no putting the genie back in the bottle, then it's probably time to redefine the relationship or separate. And those are really your two options. Both are legit. Both are honest and thoughtful in my opinion.

It's not easy and it's not fun, but it is responsible.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I suppose you do have a third option, which is to keep chugging [01:00:00] along in your marriage but stay unhappy.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, well, obviously that's not the healthy option.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No. It's just an option a lot of people choose on, on some level.

Jordan Harbinger: It's the short-term easiest option.

How's that? Long-term crappiest.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But man, he is in a real bind. He's unhappy, but he feels that dismantling his family is too painful. He wants to stay together for the kids. It's tough.

Jordan Harbinger: And I totally get that, man. It is sad, but you know my stance on the whole got to stay together for the kids thing. I mean, most therapists agree it's just not a great idea.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, is that true? I don't know. I feel like therapists might have a- I think so, yeah ... range of opinions about that based on, I don't know. But-

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah ...

Gabriel Mizrahi: he, yeah, I understand your stance. I share your view to a large degree. That's not necessarily achieving what he hopes it will for the kids.

Jordan Harbinger: I understand that every family, every couple, every situation, they're all different, and for some families, the upsides to staying together might be more important than the costs.

But generally speaking, I just don't know how growing up in a home where mom and dad don't love each other and where there's this quiet, unspoken resentment and distance, I don't know how that's ultimately better if that is, in fact, [01:01:00] how it is now.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You could argue that that's also kind of dismantling the family in a way, or it's already dismantled.

Jordan Harbinger: Living under the same roof does not automatically equal healthy. It doesn't automatically equal happy, and it doesn't necessarily equal together. I'm not saying he needs to separate from his wife ASAP or anything. L- like I said, they could absolutely choose to work on things, but I would really explore this idea that staying in this unhappy marriage, if you come to the conclusion that it can't be saved, is actually the best thing for everyone involved.

It's a question. You get to answer it. I'm just posing the question.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, man, he has some very big decisions to make here. This is intense.

Jordan Harbinger: He does, and I don't envy him at all.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So one of those decisions is, do I want to work on things in the first place? Another one is, how does my own happiness fit into this equation?

You know, whose interests should come first in this family?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, but there's also a question inside of that, which is, what are their interests really? Like, does he really know what's best for him and his wife right now?

Gabriel Mizrahi: You mean, like, his wife might be unhappy and open to a change as well?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, his wife might also be open to a [01:02:00] change.

What looks like breaking up his family might, might redefine things in a way that creates more harmony. I'm not saying it will. I'm not telling him to leave. I'm just appreciating, you know, part of his confusion is that he doesn't actually know what's best for everyone right now.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's a really interesting point.

All he can see right now is the risk and the potential hurt.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But I guess that's another question he needs to get clear on. Can I make room for my own wants and needs when pursuing those wants and needs will probably create some amount of disruption, some amount of pain to my family for a time?

Jordan Harbinger: That's got to be the hardest one.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's really tough because he doesn't want to be the bad guy, obviously. He doesn't want to hurt his wife and kids. He doesn't want to bear their difficult feelings toward him. But then avoiding that scenario is what keeps people trapped in unhappy marriages, right? So-

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah ...

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think it's important for him to accept, and I say this, like you Jordan, I'm not trying to push him to this decision.

It's just important to recognize, I think in general, if he wants something to change, there's no scenario where he doesn't hurt [01:03:00] anyone.

Jordan Harbinger: Man, it's so tough to come to terms with.

Gabriel Mizrahi: If he decides to work on things with his wife, right? If they talk things out, they go to therapy, they get deep into this stuff, whatever it looks like, they're going to have to say some things to each other that are probably going to hurt a little bit If he decides to separate and redefine their relationship, that's also going to hurt.

Jordan Harbinger: Right, and no way around it, really.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So that might be one of the first big things he needs to work through, just coming to terms with that fact and what it brings up for him, which is complicated for everyone, but especially for people who, for example, struggle with conflict or aren't used to articulating their feelings or asserting their needs, which, who knows, might be part of the reason he and his wife ended up where they ended up.

And developing his capacity to bear his family's hurt if that comes to pass, and also developing his tools for caring for that hurt. I think that's also really important.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, there's so much around this decision that he needs to work on, but look, whatever you decide here, I think it's going to be messier and riskier if you keep talking to this woman.

If you want to approach this as cleanly and fairly as possible, [01:04:00] whether you stay or you separate, you should probably say goodbye to her, at least for a little while. Obviously, that's going to avoid a ton of risk to you personally. I think it's also going to give you some peace and integrity that will probably be very helpful.

If you end up dating this woman down the line, your origin story's always going to be a little messy, and your wife, if she finds out about the timeline, that's a whole separate topic, she might always have some difficult feelings about that, understandably so. But she's going to have way more difficult feelings and a lot more ammunition in a divorce if she finds out that you were talking to this woman while you were still married or more.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Also, if it turns out that these two really are a great match and they do get together down the line, they might feel better about it if their relationship did not start as a full-blown affair for both of them.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's a good point, and I realize it's a little dicey already to say, "Hey, sorry, I can't talk to you anymore while I'm married, but I'm going to text you in six months."

Right. There's already some carrying on in there. Y- y- you're basically putting your side piece on ice. Yeah. So it's complicated, but putting things on ice is [01:05:00] still way better than, you know, popping them open and spraying champagne everywhere. Uh, sorry for that gross metaphor, but you know what I mean.

Gross. The, the choice is yours, of course, but this is the cleaner thing to do. So you have some big stuff to think about. I would encourage you to genuinely, actively think about it, not just stuff it down and muddle through, or pull the trigger and bounce because there's a shiny new thing over here. Get clear with yourself on your needs, your values, your priorities.

Talk about it with some safe people. It might be a really good time to start seeing a therapist if you aren't already. Maybe that's even more valuable before couples therapy to explore all these questions, get clear on some things. The confusion you feel, the guilt, they're normal, they're appropriate, but they are symptoms of these conflicts that need resolving I hope that gives you some new perspectives here, man, and good luck.

By the way, you can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Try to use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're finding dead squirrels in your mailbox, your friend's mother is keeping her baby from her, or you accidentally found out your brother is gay and you don't know whether to [01:06:00] tell his wife, whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com.

We're here to help, and we keep every email anonymous. You know what's less risky than a whirlwind fling in Vegas? Getting all up in the steamy deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

If you liked this episode of Feedback Friday and you found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do. Take a moment, support our amazing sponsors. All of the deals and discounts are searchable and clickable on the website at jordanharbinger.com/deals. If that doesn't work, email us Jordan@jordanharbinger.com.

We'll happily dig up codes for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show And now for the recommendation of the week. I am

Lip Filla Clip: addicted to lip filler.

Gabriel Mizrahi: My rec of the week comes courtesy of one of our listeners named Ben. Ben wrote us recently saying, "I recently learned that my firm is going through yet another round of layoffs in the next three to four months.

[01:07:00] My job may or may not be eliminated. Only time will tell. I started thinking about how I could upskill and stay competitive in case I found myself thrust into the job market. I turned to AI for help, and I wanted to share the prompt that I created with your listeners. The prompt was this: 'I'm a senior copywriting professional with 25 years of experience in the financial services industry, including 20 years at my current firm.

With potential layoffs on the horizon, I want to proactively prepare for a job transition in the next three months. Assume I will be entering the job market at that time. Create a practical three-month learning and development plan to help me upskill, stay competitive, and position myself for new opportunities.

Focus on areas that are most relevant and valuable for someone with my background. For example, modern marketing skills, emerging tools, digital platforms, AI, portfolio development, job search strategy, et cetera.'"

Jordan Harbinger: That is so smart.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Isn't it? I love this. And then he goes on to say, "Requirements: Use only free, [01:08:00] high-quality resources," and he lists some of those examples.

"Structure the plan week by week, 12 weeks total. Break each week into clear, actionable daily assignments. Assume I can commit about five hours a week total, with about an hour per day on weekdays. Make the plan simple to follow, highly practical, easy to execute without interpretation. Goal: Help me level up my skills, build confidence, and be fully prepared to compete for my next role by the end of the three months."

Jordan Harbinger: It's a great use case. I love that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So he shared the results, and the AI gave him this, exactly what he asked for, a week-by-week roadmap with courses to complete and software to learn. It gave him assignments and deliverables and milestones and next steps. It included even how to update his resume in light of what he will be learning.

Basically, a whole personalized game plan to position himself for these jobs that he would be applying to if he gets laid off.

Jordan Harbinger: Such a good idea.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I thought it was really neat. Of course, you actually have to do what it says to get the benefits, but what an amazing- Yeah, that's

Jordan Harbinger: the, that's the real [01:09:00] drag.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But what an amazing leg up for anybody who's entering the job market.

It's like having a career coach who's managing your whole strategy for free.

Jordan Harbinger: Literally. You could also do this for every part of the job search, relationship building, thought leadership, preparing for your first performance review. It's crazy how far you could take this.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Seriously. And also, like, any field, any career, any level in your...

Somebody in high school could do this about how to get their j- It's just crazy. I thought you guys would enjoy that, so I just wanted to pass it along. That's my recommendation of the week, using AI to prepare for potential layoffs or just a job search that is coming up under whatever circumstances. And again, big thanks to Ben for sharing this one with us.

I hope your job is safe, Ben, but if you happen to be laid off, you are going to be in the best possible position, and I love the hustle. Nicely done.

Jordan Harbinger: Before we wrap up today, I wanted to talk about a Wee Bit Wiser newsletter we sent out a couple weeks ago that got some very passionate responses. The subject line was, "Saw Your Name in the Epstein Files."

Maybe you remember it if you got that newsletter. The first line of the newsletter when you open it, it [01:10:00] said, "Just kidding. Obviously, I wanted to see the open rate on this newsletter." The newsletter went on to say that basically, if you're going to hook someone's curiosity, whether it's a clickbaity subject line or something you drop in a conversation or the promise of an online course, whatever it is, that curiosity needs to be rewarded with substance, real substance.

If it is rewarded with real substance, then the hook, which is marketing basically, it's fair game, and then it's gratifying and useful for both parties. If that curiosity isn't rewarded with genuine substance, then it's just manipulative. It's just cynical marketing, which is sadly what a lot of content in the world is these days.

And that was the point of the newsletter, that if you're going to do something shamelessly clickbaity with the subject line, then it better be in service of something worthwhile or at least try to. So the whole saw your name in the Epstein files thing, that was both a silly bit and a way to illustrate the very point that we were making in the newsletter, and our hope was that if people got to the end of the newsletter, they'd be like, "Oh, huh, interesting.

That did lead somewhere meaningful. That was a real key takeaway here." And that is what most of you took away from it, and a lot of you guys hit me back saying, "Man, [01:11:00] great point. Thank you for this." Several of you were like, "Oh, I'm dying at my desk at work. I've been chuckling about this all day. Well played."

A few people said they were stealing this, and many of you wrote in with some really cool examples of how you're living by this principle in your own life, promoting your novel or grabbing people's attention in meetings or marketing yourselves online. W- that all made my day because, you know, that's, that was the whole point of the newsletter.

And then there was a handful of people, surprise, surprise, that actually hated it. W- a couple people wrote back like, "Cheap trick, unsubscribed." Another person said, "Oh, you lost credibility with me on this. It was creative when I saw it six months ago. It's lazy and annoying." Some people felt that the whole thing was stupid.

Other people said it would be traumatizing for others. Another person hit me back saying, and I quote, "I'm not into tricking people with clickbait. Integrity is a priority. If that means I die broke, so be it. We need to stop playing games with our fellow human beings. Do better. Live better. Love better.

Give better. It can be done. Give it a try."

Gabriel Mizrahi: You better, uh, better take that note, Jordan, I'm just saying.

Jordan Harbinger: I guess so. I know, living better, giving better, not something I think about or spend any [01:12:00] time thinking about or talking about on this show, right?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Not at all. It's not like you have a whole keynote speech about it or anything like that.

Jordan Harbinger: No, that's a good idea. I should get on that. I think my favorite one, my favorite response was, "The Epstein files are a record of horrendous acts against humanity. Using them to increase email open rates is despicable. I don't care how you spin it. It is not okay and in a way has you coming off as someone who agrees with it."

And then when I gently challenged this person, told them most people found it silly, clever, asked if they were having a rough day or anything like that, they said, "Telling me I must be in a bad mood, others are okay with it, which I doubt, or changing the topic does not negate that you failed to take accountability for this."

So all that got me thinking about a few things, and I just wanted to take a moment here and reflect on them because I find this really interesting First of all, anybody who listens to the show, especially Feedback Friday, I think they know the spirit Gabe and I come with this stuff with. They know what we care about, what we stand for.

I think it's pretty obvious that it's not, you know, pedophilia and human trafficking. Y'all know we're not out to hurt anyone or even laugh at the substance of these crimes, even though Gabe's laughing right now. [01:13:00] Second, I knew this newsletter would ruffle some feathers. That was part of the point, and I welcome these responses, even if I ultimately disagree with them.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I also feel there's a difference between a listener who pops off with a takedown because they're angry at their desk and fires off a response in two minutes, and a listener who says, "Listen, I love the show, but this one was a miss for me for this reason and that reason, and I just want to let you know."

Jordan Harbinger: Of course.

The second thing is totally fair, totally fine. I appreciate the respectful criticism, even if I ultimately disagree. What I find curious is the people who are just outrageously offended by this, who almost seem to be going out of their way to be offended, or who are choosing to interpret the spirit of the newsletter very narrowly in order to become offended, and who felt that then it was worth their time and energy to express their offense, but who when I was like, "Hey, cool, I hear you, but did you read the actual newsletter?"

They were like, "No, I saw the subject line and I was turned off," or, "I got halfway through the first paragraph and I gave up because Epstein, Bill Gates, child trafficking, something psyops. Show some respect, [01:14:00] Jordan." And I'm like, okay, totally fine to critique the premise, but if you didn't even read the newsletter, the newsletter that is at least trying to make a meaningful point, that is actually, if I do say so myself, a pretty clever piece that's actually referencing itself and paying off the very thing that's pissing you off- then what is there to talk about?

You're not only not engaging in good faith with the thing you want to tear down, but you're actually deciding what it means or what it represents or what we intended, rather than taking an extra few minutes, not even few minutes, a minute, to see if there was anything of value to be gleaned, even a little bit.

All so you can protect your position, or worse, just have a reason to get mad, which I find kind of lazy intellectually and very easy ethically. It takes a little extra work to say, "Hey, I've got strong feelings about the whole Epstein thing," which, by the way, that is appropriate. It's obviously horrible. But, you know, let me see what these guys are actually saying here, and then decide what it means and how angry I should be as a result.

And by the way, just to state the obvious, [01:15:00] this newsletter had nothing to do with Jeffrey Epstein in substance, and it had everything to do with curiosity and attention and what we owe an audience, our audience. I kind of understand when people go, "Ugh, icky, Epstein. I don't know. Cheap trick." I get it. I kind of even agree.

But I just can't with people who are like, "How dare you co-opt the Mossad pedophile's crimes to promote your sponsors. Show some respect for the children, the babies being eaten by the Democrats." I mean, when we're literally talking about a newsletter that was about how to do right by your audience. It's just, it's so absurd.

But I guess that's the other thing that these responses made me realize. People love getting upset. They get a dopamine rush from it. They get righteous indignation. One guy wrote me, like, eight emails just back to back to back. Totally nuts. And look, that's their right. It's your right to do that. But being outraged and then hurling that outrage at a convenient object who also happens to produce a show that has talked extensively about things like human trafficking and deepfakes and victims and all that stuff, I, I find it to be a very strange use of time and [01:16:00] energy and kind of the lowest form of discourse.

I mean, it's just your, your feel- you're just barfing your feelings into an email, right? And look, feelings are fair. Feelings can be appropriate. I'm not sitting here saying, "Hey, Epstein wasn't such a bad guy," obviously. But there was an opportunity here to do something so much better than just get mad so you can soak up your morning dopamine hit.

There's always an opportunity to do something better than just get mad. You could read the thing and see if you could take something useful from it. You could say, "I didn't get much out of this one. I don't vibe with the subject, but I see what you were trying to do." You could ask yourself, "Why am I so bothered by this?"

You could go, "Oh, I hated this newsletter. How would I have done it better?" All of these would have generated something of value, and that to me is the real cost of outrage and offense and blind rejection. It just completely eclipses the other possibilities. It short-circuits a much more fruitful process, which is, you know, curiosity, inquiry, genuine engagement, or just prioritizing your own time and sanity and moving on with your [01:17:00] life.

But I guess I shouldn't be surprised by this. We live in a world where these kinds of reactions are encouraged. They're celebrated. Our whole culture runs on them, so it's nothing new. I just thought it was interesting that a lot of the people who got mad about this newsletter were like, "You're going to lose a ton of subscribers.

Everyone else agrees with me on this." These people, they couldn't just speak for themselves. They seemed to be speaking on behalf of some general hypothetical audience that was just as angry as they are. You know, "You broke some universal norm. Everyone agrees with me on this." That was not the case And why people do this, that's an interesting question.

I have a few theories. One is they're not confident that their arguments can stand on their own. They need to recruit an imaginary army of people who agree with them in order to make their point, which I think already says a lot. Another theory is, and this is probably the, uh, I'm leaning more towards this one, it's a delusion.

They actually believe that everyone thinks exactly as they do. "You're the one who's wrong. We're right. We got the numbers. The only correct moral position is ours, even [01:18:00] if that position is you can't turn this topic into a meme." And anyone who comes to a different conclusion, or in the case of our newsletter, just plays with a meme, to a completely innocent end, I might add, well, that person is a monster.

Whatever the underlying cause, I think that delusion has always existed among human beings. This is a version of tribalism, but it's definitely fed by social media. Most people are inside of an information prison that is so expansive they don't even realize they're inside it, and this is a very scary prison, in my opinion, because I'm not even talking right now about what data you believe in or what opinions you subscribe to.

I'm talking about something even more basic, which is whether a creator can use one thing happening in the world to make a different point, whether people want to take the time to understand what someone else is truly saying, whether other messages or angles or senses of humor are compatible with your own.

It's just wild to me. But what's maybe most interesting is the data speaks for itself. The open rate on that newsletter, slightly higher than normal. The unsubscribe [01:19:00] rate, slightly higher, but nothing meaningful really. But the reply rate, that was through the roof, and the vast majority of the responses were positive.

I know some people won't believe me, because everyone agrees with them, and their opinion was the only valid one, but that's the truth. So it was a fascinating experiment. All that to say, no offense intended, some offense taken, but I still stand by everything in that newsletter, which was really a reminder that if you're going to provoke people in some way, you have to reward that provocation.

And I can't help but feel that with that newsletter, and even now hopefully talking about some of these responses, we've done just that, and most of you guys who hit me back did the exact same thing in return, which is beautiful The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network.

It's a circle of people I know, like, and trust. I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself. It's our Six Minute Networking course. It is free. It is not schmoozy. It's on the Thinkific platform at sixminutenetworking.com. Do the drills. They take a few minutes a day. Dig that well before you get thirsty.

Build relationships before you need them. Sixminutenetworking.com is where you can find [01:20:00] it. Show notes and transcripts on the website at jordanharbinger.com. Advertisers, discounts, ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com/deals. I am @JordanHarbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also hit me on LinkedIn.

Gabe's on Instagram @GabrielMizrahi. This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tadas Sidlauskas, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. And yeah, I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Consult a qualified professional before implementing anything you hear on the show.

Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. Hey, if you found the episode useful, share it with somebody who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.

You're about to hear a preview from Joe Loya, a man who robbed 30 banks across California but says the real crime scene was his childhood, where his Pentecostal preacher father beat him over 100 times before he turned 15.

Joe Loya: For 14 months, I robbed 30 [01:21:00] banks, sometimes several in one day. I lost all sense that my life was going to be long at all. I just wanted to grab the loot and get the hell out of Dodge as fast as possible and go spend it and have fun. That was my ethos. And so I did, because all the crimes I did and all the violence I did, and starting with my dad, when my mother died, we had received a lot of love from her and everything like that.

It's just too much for him. And when he gets angry now, he gets brutal. Like, he may have socked me, he may have choked me, he may have done all those things, beat me with a bat. He wants us dead. He's using the dead language. He could kill us or I could kill myself, but this is, like, it's just a tough time for me to try and process the grief myself and be, I'm being brutalized.

I don't believe I have a future. So there's nothing inside of me like, "Oh, I've got to protect my future. I better get a job. I start, better start saving money for the future." None of that. Because the trauma is so intense, you're only looking at surviving the next day in front of you. You know, in fact, [01:22:00] I'm not made for society.

They have all these moralities, but they're too timid for me. I've seen past the curtain. Like, I become, in my heart, like this little sociopath looking at like, "You guys are falling for the okie doke, and I'm not the guy who falls for the okie doke. I'm the guy who stabs the okie doke and says, 'Get the hell out of my way.'

I'm not buying it," right? Once upon a time, Joe Loya couldn't handle his emotional shit, and so now I'm a criminal. I'm a bad guy.

Jordan Harbinger: Check out episodes 1264 and 1265 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.