362: Mark Cuban | Tales from the Shark Side

Transcript for Mark Cuban - Tales from the Shark Side (Episode 362)

Mark Cuban: [00:00:00] When they go out, I'm not going to have to explain to Jake what it's like to be afraid if you get pulled over by an officer and to only pull over where there's light, not where it's dark. Or if you have somebody in the car with a phone, have them video record it. That's not a conversation I've ever had to have or will ever have to have with my kids. That's the kind of stress they deal with. They're diminished. People don't respect them. They're walking or running through a neighborhood, someone might call the cops. In a store, someone's looking at them. How afraid would you be?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:29] Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's sharpest minds and most fascinating people. Turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. We want to help you see the Matrix when it comes to how these amazing people think and behave. And our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. So you can get a much deeper understanding of how the world works and make sense of what's really happening. If you're new to the show, we've got episodes with spies and CEOs, athletes and authors, thinkers and performers, as well as toolboxes for skills like negotiation, body language, persuasion, and more. So if you're smart and you like to learn and improve. You're going to be right at home here with us. For a selection of featured episodes to get you started with some of our favorite guests and popular topics, go to jordanharbinger.com and we'll hook you up. 

[00:01:18] Today, Shark Tank investor in over 200 companies and owner of the Dallas Mavericks, Mark Cuban. Usually I do a deep dive into someone's backstory on this show, as you all know, but from Mark Cuban, I feel like I just had too many timely and topical questions. So we'll do another show in the future and deep dive into what makes Mark Cuban, Mark Cuban. Today, what advice Mark is giving to his CEOs and founders and what he sees as the future of knowledge and technology economies here in the United States. What jobs will exist in the future, how America can beat China in manufacturing and business, period, and the areas in which we need to invest in order to do so. Also, we'll learn how Mark stays on top of trends and separates fact from fiction when it comes to his investments, and how you can reach Mark to get his attention for your business idea should you have one. Much more in this episode as well.

[00:02:05] And if you want to know how I managed to get all these amazing folks on the show, it's always, always about the network. You’ve got to dig the well before you get thirsty. Build relationships before you need them. I'm teaching you how to do this for free in our course, Six-Minute Networking. It's at jordanharbinger.com/course. And by the way, most of the guests on the show, they subscribe to the course in the newsletter. So come join us, you'll be in smart company where you belong. Now, here's Mark Cuban. 

[00:02:34] I know you're an investor in over 200 businesses. What do those founders need from you right now? I assume that everybody needs different advice, but what are you telling all of them? 

Mark Cuban: [00:02:44] I'm telling them all the exact same thing. One, you have to be transparent. Two, you have to be honest. Three, you have to be authentic. Four, you have to talk. You have to communicate, because everybody's freaked out. Everybody's uncertain. Everybody's working with imperfect information. You have to recognize that when everybody's afraid, the best way to deal with it is by coming together. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:03:03] And now we're hearing high-level executives, for example, at JP Morgan saying things like, “We have to rethink capitalism,” and this is not their usual tagline. 

Mark Cuban: [00:03:12] Right.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:03:13] What's going on here?

Mark Cuban: [00:03:13] I mean, a lot has changed, right? A lot of how people perceive companies that they want to do business with was evolving with Gen Z and to a lesser extent, the younger millennials. I mean, everybody on Instagram effectively, no matter how old you are, is a brand, right? What you put on Instagram is how you want to be perceived as a brand.

[00:03:31] And when you're doing that, that's been extended now, particularly with everything that's been going on. So you only want to do business with people who represent the things that are important to you. And if you're not taking care of your employees, if you're not taking care of your stakeholders, your brand is going to be damaged forever. Young kids are going to carry that with them for decades. And so I think those big companies are recognizing how they present themselves, how they interact in society, how they worked from the bottom up, instead of the traditional top down, is going to define their brand for decades. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:04:02] It seems like a lot of these guys, these executives are seeing that this might be the real-time that things change. I mean, maybe that's delusional. Maybe I'm a little naive. 

Mark Cuban: [00:04:10] I mean, you never know, right? That's the whole thing. You know, when there's a school shooting, we're changing gun laws. When there's this, there's that, it always seems like an inflection point. And you never know until it is. It certainly seems a lot bigger than anything we've seen in my lifetime and the combination of the protests and looting and the pandemic. And plus the fact that people are home, right? The fact that you have more time to think about it and you're more concerned about your future, all of these things combined together to make for really uncertain times. And when people are uncertain about their future, that's why people rebel. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:04:43] You know, it does seem a little bit impossible. I'm 40, right? I've never seen a mass civil unrest. The last big riot like this was what, L.A., localized to L.A.

Mark Cuban: [00:04:53] With Rodney King. I had to drive through that. I had to drive through that. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:04:56] Why?

Mark Cuban: [00:04:57] I had just moved to L.A. in 1992, and I was in Hollywood. I was taking acting classes. And I had gone up and I had just started it's like my first acting class. The only way I knew how to get home, just took me right through the middle of it. People with machine guns and machetes and everything burning, and I'm in a Lexus thinking, "Oh my God, this is not good." Obviously, it wasn't good for -- it didn't matter about me, the people that lived there were awful. I don't know that that area of L.A. has recovered yet. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:05:26] No, I think a lot of the Korean population moved out of there -- a lot of people just went under never to come back. Why were you taking acting classes?

Mark Cuban: [00:05:33] Just because I had sold my company, moved to L.A., and wanted to meet people. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:05:37] Sure. Okay. Yeah. Well, they're paying off now, right? With the Tank. 

Mark Cuban: [00:05:40] Yeah, exactly. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:05:42] Do you think that the protesters -- I mean, look, the rioters are one thing, but it seems almost like the violence, it's not just merely taking advantage of chaos. There's a lot of people who are actually angry at the country and at their circumstances right now, it's not easy to brush it off and just say, "Oh, well, you know, those are just people who would steal TVs anyway."

Mark Cuban: [00:05:59] No, of course not, no. People are angry. You know, there's systemic racism. The people who have just been disadvantaged their entire lives and every day they wake up, it's a concern and an uncertainty that they need to deal with that just creates unbound stress. They are losing 40-plus million people who’ve lost their jobs, who knows how many people have had their hours reduced, had their wages reduced, what that total number is. You've got the pandemic where you're not certain about your health and you're, you're reading, and in fact, your minority communities are getting the brunt of it. There's a significant percentage of people working in healthcare that are minorities. And so there's a disproportion there on the front lines. That's just a lot of stress. You know what I'm going to butcher this, but Martin Luther King said rioting is the voice of the unheard. The only surprise is that it's taken this long. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:06:45] I think you're right. It seems like it would have boiled over. I mean, this was just the whole take-a-knee thing was a canary in the coal mine actually at this point.

Mark Cuban: [00:06:52] Yeah, of course. The irony is just so steep. Kaepernick didn't even bring the focus to himself. He just happened to be taking a knee and somebody caught him with a phone camera. And that elevated it and escalated it. And it was as peaceful and respectful as you could possibly be. He told everybody why he was doing it. And here we are, you know, when you don't respect somebody just peacefully protesting and you don't respect civil unrest, you get what we have now, and it's unfortunate -- but a reality. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:07:23] What was your reaction to Drew Brees' apology for his remarks about the kneeling during the national anthem?  Do you understand that? 

Mark Cuban: [00:07:30] Yeah, I actually felt bad for Drew. Honestly, I think he was trying to be positive. It's hard not to be tone-deaf in those circumstances. You know, I've been there before. I mean, where I said something, where I thought I was starting a legitimate conversation on race. And I made a tone-deaf statement that I thought was accurate and honest, and I learned from it. And I think Drew will learn from it as well. I think his heart's in the right place, but being white, we don't have standing. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:07:54] People are going to -- I'm going to catch flak for this, I don't care. It's got to be pretty hard for people in your position, in his position to learn lessons in front of millions of people that I would have learned in college in a quiet corner conversation.

Mark Cuban: [00:08:06] But you learn them, right?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:08:07] Yeah, hopefully.

Mark Cuban: [00:08:08] And the benefit is even when I say something that comes across tone-deaf or Drew Brees, people correct you, and having that platform gives them not only the opportunity for them to hear you and then correct you but a chance for you to respond. And to have people understand and then get to a point where you, you understand each other. So it's unfortunate, it's unfortunate that he said it that way and the pain that people felt because of it but hopefully, it'll lead to something stronger. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:08:33] You think Colin Kaepernick kneeled and protested, lost his job, essentially. I mean, should that have happened? 

Mark Cuban: [00:08:37] No. If he could play basketball, I'd give him a job.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:08:40] Yeah. 

Mark Cuban: [00:08:41] Kaep, you know, we're going back here, July 31st. If you can play, if we have a roster spot, you let me know. No, because it's just ridiculous and from a business perspective, it would have been great for business, but from a football perspective, it sure looked like he could play in. Look, I hate when you have armchair GMs tell me who to add to my team. So, you know, I'm on that armchair talking about the football team having Kaep, but every indication says he at least should have been given a shot. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:09:08] What would you have done at that time, if he were your player, how would you have handled that? 

Mark Cuban: [00:09:13] I'd hug him. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:09:13] Yeah.

Mark Cuban: [00:09:14] Yeah, absolutely.  You know, going back when we invaded Iraq, Steve Nash stood up and said “I'm against the Iraqi War” and he got criticized. I said, "Say what's on your mind." Just all these ongoing instances, that's what I've always said to my players, "Say what's on your mind."

Jordan Harbinger: [00:09:29] It seems a shame to have a platform and then have people say, "Hey, just play basketball. I don't want to hear from you."

Mark Cuban: [00:09:35] Idiots say that. Idiots say that. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:09:37] Agree. Yeah. Agree. You want to hold these people to a standard as, "You're a role model for kids." "Okay, so I have to be a good role model. I can't say, 'I didn't ask for that.' But then when I say my opinion, it's, 'Hey, know your role, just shoot a ball, dumbass.'"

Mark Cuban: [00:09:48] That's part of being a good role model, right?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:09:50] Right.

Mark Cuban: [00:09:51] Being able to say what's on your mind, being able to back up what you say. When you're famous or you're a celebrity or an athlete, and people are listening to you, and you have a platform on social media and traditional media -- just like we're talking about Drew Brees -- you are going to get criticized by one side or the other. There is no down the middle where everybody's going to love you when it comes to a subject like this. And so you are going to get crushed by one side or the other. Being a role model means here's how you stand up for what you believe, recognizing you're going to get criticism.

[00:10:21] You know, Kaep is a role model. He stood up for what he believed and it's unfortunate that, from a job perspective, it hurt him. But he found other ways financially to really move ahead and become a brand. Was it worth it? Only he'll know, but I'd give him a hug. I tell all my players, I tell anybody with a platform or without a platform, because every change has to start somewhere.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:10:44] You've said we need loads of new jobs for people to feel secure becoming consumers again, which makes obvious sense to some of us, I think. I was going to say everybody, but you know how that goes. No amount of loans to businesses will save them or save jobs if customers aren't buying and you'd recommended this transitional federal jobs program that trains and hires millions for tracking, tracing, and testing and, long-term care for at-risk populations. It seems like a no-brainer for some folks. I wonder if you worry about privacy and data collection when it comes to contact tracing and tracking. 

Mark Cuban: [00:11:17] Of course I do. Of course I do. And that's why I always mentioned HIPAA because there are very specific HIPAA regulations when it comes to privacy. I worry about government accumulating all that information, for sure. That's why when, as much as I can or have time to, when I talk about these programs, there also is a programming data analytics security component that goes with it as well. But we already deal with that at hospitals, right? You're not finding your hospital information 99 percent of the time out there everywhere. And this should be no different.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:11:44] Did you think you'd be advocating for an expansion of the government before COVID-19? 

Mark Cuban: [00:11:49] Never in my wildest dreams. Every thought I've ever had in my professional life, even when I was a kid, reading Ayn Rand, it was always small government, government's inefficient. If you go back to some of my older blog posts, it's like, "Okay, we can do these programs,” but the whole goal was to make government smaller and more efficient.

[00:12:07] But the flip side of everything, not, not just the whole COVID thing, but I have started to say over the last two years or so, with artificial intelligence, we'll be able to start seeing government as a service more. And so, you know, if we ever have any politicians that ever understand technology and where it's going, which is a whole other issue, then they'll be able to see that as advances occur in AI, there are risks, there are bias risks, there are performance risks, there are accuracy risks. But as we get through those problems, AI as a service can replace that old historical model or form of the paper pusher. The bureaucrat that just sits at their desk, stamping things all day long and trying to do anything not to work. Technology can start to solve some of those problems in government and make it smaller, but effectively do more and leave more money for the people and the services that we all need. And I think, you know, from that perspective, bigger impact with fewer people. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:13:01] There you go, yeah, okay. All right, fair. I've heard you say TikTok has the best AI in terms of social media, especially with how it serves up content, and I guess creates the feed or serves up that content for each individual user. You said you worry about how the government is using data. I assume you also worry about how companies are going to use data. 

Mark Cuban: [00:13:18] Yeah, it depends on what it is. I mean, a lot of people are freaking out because it's Chinese-owned.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:13:22] Yeah.

Mark Cuban: [00:13:22] The thing about TikTok is if you sit there, they are going to find things that entertain you. And because the AI is driven by entertainment, you know, maybe if you're skeezy and you're looking at stuff you don't think you should be, and that could be used against you. Okay. But actually, they do a better job than any platform of weeding out any type of risky content. I don't think I did with this guy -- this guy goes on TikTok and, just on his own says, "Here are the five worst names to name your child." Goes through the list and the number one worst name is Mark. And so on TikTok, you can do these duets, right? And so I did a duet and I'm laughing and it gets to my name. And I'm like, "Oh." And because I cursed in it after getting 5.1 million views, they took it down. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:14:07] Ooh.

Mark Cuban: [00:14:07] Yeah, it was crazy. And so in a lot of respects, it's literally the best and safest platform for kids. That's my experience, maybe I'm missing something, but I get the part about the Chinese controlling it and that's why you've seen them hire American CEO and others to -- and moving the headquarters here or expanding their headquarters here. I mean, their AI is brilliant. There is no other platform just about anybody can go to, and after watching 10 videos, it knows pretty much what you want. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:14:34] A lot of people are going to be displaced through AI. I hate saying paper-pushers because it is pejorative, but people who do a lot of knowledge worker jobs that are sort of at the rudimentary level, what future jobs do you think will actually exist? Maybe even jobs that do not exist right now, other than of course AI programmers or creators. 

Mark Cuban: [00:14:50] Look, there'll be disruption. There will be jobs lost in the short term. We're already seeing that with call centers. You're seeing it with bots, right? You know that little thing that pops up when you go to the website, “How can I help you?” It's not a person. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:15:00] Right.

Mark Cuban: [00:15:00] And so there'll be the equivalent of the mind-numbing job is going to be data-labeling. And there'll be a zillion data-labeling jobs, potentially, that show up. If you want to be able to have accuracy, you need to have correct labeling. Now, you know, you can use unstructured data and figure things out, but it's a lot less efficient and requires a lot more resources. So there'll be labelers.

[00:15:22] There'll also be people who need to make sure that there aren't biases. And to make sure that the data is accurate. I think you'll see an increase in the need for liberal arts majors. So if there's a bot that needs to use Shakespeare -- just to pull something out of left field -- you can't do that unless you have somebody with domain knowledge and domain expertise about Shakespeare if there's a history bot or whatever it is. So there's going to be a lot of germane expertise requirements in order to push AI forward. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:15:49] What should people be studying so that they future-proof themselves? Or is that even possible? 

Mark Cuban: [00:15:54] You know, the current new stuff, you always want to stay up to speed on -- robotics, precision medicine, AI, statistics, math is always a good thing to study no matter what. But the key, I think when you're going to college, is just learning how to learn because the only constant is change. We went from pre-pandemic in January to, okay, trying to understand the impact of viruses and will they occur again. Pre-pandemic we never had a concept of working from home and you never would have thought of “How do I enhance the audio for Zoom?” So there's always going to be change that leads to opportunity. And there's never going to be a better time than right now, hopefully, to start a business. I mean, simply because there's, everything's going through this reset. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:16:36] I know you taught yourself computers by staying late at the computer store, learning computers, where you were actually selling software, selling computers, reading manuals, which now you can't even do, there's just too many. 

Mark Cuban: [00:16:46] Right.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:16:46] How do you decide now what to learn and stay informed with? Because you're huge on learning from the jump, we're in a pandemic right now, changes in vaccine manufacturing, telemedicine, manufacturing. Like what are you aiming at right now? 

Mark Cuban: [00:17:00] My biggest strength has always been being able to look at any type of business, I don't care what it is, and be able to understand them and understand how I can make them more productive, more profitable and give them a competitive advantage. And so for me, every time there's new technology that I think is impactful. I want to learn it. So Alexa, who is Jake Cuban?

Alexa: [00:17:23] According to Wikipedia, Jake is often referred to as a quick magnet of the modern fiasco. He won a lifetime achievement award for most Dutch ovens in a single night, Jake's friend called him JC, and he has been known to run a mile in under seven minutes --

Mark Cuban: [00:17:37] Alexa, off.

[00:17:38] So just ambient voice is going to be huge. So I had to learn how to write scripts.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:17:41] Right.

Mark Cuban: [00:17:42] You know, AI is going to be huge. So I'm on Amazon AWS taking machine learning tutorials. I'm on YouTube watching an introduction to neural networks. I'm reading research papers about reinforcement learning, and that's how they meet goals and how that works. Or generative adversarial networks because that's how they do all the fancy graphics and pictures. And that allows me to start investing in companies and, and be able to separate what's real and what's nonsense. Because everybody's got an AI component in their company, but 99.99 percent of them are nonsense. And so I can't tell one from the other unless I do the work. Now I'm starting to dig more into robotics. I always had a good understanding from a software perspective, but not from the hardware side of it.

[00:18:24] I've got a couple of investments and I'm adding more and more, but I want to be able to pull that forward. Because if we're going to bring manufacturing from overseas to domestic, the only way we're going to beat low-cost employees and lack of interest in the environment and environmental protections, we're going to have to do that through robotics. And then there's going to be disruption because of that. The traditional manufacturing that was done here, the limited amount, is probably going to be displaced. And so understanding what type of jobs we can create and how we can scale that, so that an aggregate, you create a lot more jobs.

[00:18:57] And so those are the types of things where I just try to dig in. And I'm competitive as well because I want to be able to walk into a room and I might not be the smartest person in the room for that in these things, but I know I'm going to understand the business impact. 

Jen Harbinger: [00:19:11] You're listening to The Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest Mark Cuban. We'll be right back. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:19:17] This episode is sponsored in part by Feetures. It's F-E-E-T-U-R-E-S. You see what they did there, Peter?

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Jen Harbinger: [00:22:08] And now back to Mark Cuban on The Jordan Harbinger Show.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:22:13] One thing we learned from this pandemic is that our supply chain needs to have more robust roots here in the US. You kind of mentioned, "Hey, look, we outsource all this manufacturing. That's not going to work. It exposed the cracks in the system." It seems like you don't think it's too late to turn things around --

Mark Cuban: [00:22:26] No.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:22:27] -- and manufacture critical resources in the States.

Mark Cuban: [00:22:29] No, it's not close to being too late. I'll give you a perfect example. About a year ago, I invested in a company called The Mark Cuban Low-Cost Drug Company, and we want to be very clear, it was a private benefit corporation as opposed to a C corp. And we're going to use robotics to be able to make a bunch of drugs, generic drugs, that had shortages or were overpriced. And I'm not going to tell you which drugs, because I don't want those companies to come after us. You know, we're going to use robotics and be able to be a lower-cost provider than what was being made in India or China. And being able to take robotics, which unfortunately we're still like fourth in the world behind Japan, Germany -- maybe we're tied with China. If we're able to really invest in, I'd rather see infrastructure investments go into robotics. Then we can using robotics and advanced software because we are good at robotics software, we can steal manufacturing from China and from overseas, by just outperforming because they're pushing for robotics and they're expanding it.

[00:23:29] I mean, they have manufacturing facilities that have thousands of robots, but if we invest in it, I'm confident we can do better. So now when it comes to manufacturing tchotchkes this, this, this, whatever, if we're all robotics, we can jump ahead of them. But if we do what the administration is trying to do and just recreate 1985 manufacturing and add tariffs to protect people, we're going to get torched because what they're missing is -- China, Germany, Russia, Japan -- they're not standing still in robotics. They continue to invest. And China, every single day, is asking themselves “How can I kick America's ass in the business?” And unless we recognize that and invest and push forward as a sovereign state, we're going to get torched.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:24:11] And that's worrisome because it seems like, oh, we're focused on dragging everybody down. We're focused on being a heavy-ass anchor and saying, "Well, we're going to screw up the world economy if you don't play our game." Instead of saying, "We're going to be better than you because we've been working out harder.”

Mark Cuban: [00:24:24] That's what we do, man. I'm a huge believer in American exceptionalism and I’m just ashamed that this administration doesn't think we can compete and needs tariffs. The way we're going to bring back all those businesses and the way it's always been to bring back those businesses. We go through transitions. We started off as an agrarian economy. Then we became industrial. Then we became a hybrid of digital and physical. Now we're going as much digital as we possibly can. And we've got to continue that with AI and robotics and precision medicine, but we have to invest in it as a country. And we have to just be better than that because they're not standing still. And that's what this administration doesn't get. I've talked to them. You know, they think this is the way China does it. No! China is doing, like I said earlier, doing everything in their power to keep on moving forward and pass us by. And you know, we're not doing all we can to prevent that.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:25:14] We both hate scams and how you make your money is important. And one thing I love about watching you on Shark Tank is I routinely debunk scams or talk about why something is just total bullshit even on this show, and I take a lot of flak for it. And I know you do too.

Mark Cuban: [00:25:27] Good for you.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:25:28] It's important because how you make your money is also important. Although you did start a chain letter in college, which I don't know --

Mark Cuban: [00:25:35] Yeah, but I made sure everybody that I put on the chain letter made their money back!

Jordan Harbinger: [00:25:37] Okay. Well, there's that all right, fine. But when I saw that, I was like, "Oh, well, he changed his ways." 

Mark Cuban: [00:25:42] No, I did. I did.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:25:44] Thank you for doing that. I think a lot of people invest in scams though because they can be lucrative. And I don't see you doing that.

Mark Cuban: [00:25:49] No.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:25:50] I'd love to know your philosophy on this. Because there's a lot of rich people on YouTube going, "Hey, kid who's 20 and you don't want a job. Here's this thing you can do to do Forex." So this other bullshit, it's just getting --

Mark Cuban: [00:25:59] Yeah, the hustle porn.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:26:00] Yeah, hustle porn!

Mark Cuban: [00:26:01] The Forex porn. Those types of companies just have reach that weren't there before. And so they can make it work and that's unfortunate. But yeah, I just -- I won't touch that stuff. It's just not worth it. It's not worth anything, and I haven't since I was in college.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:26:16] Sure. A lot of people might go, “Well, fine. He's a billionaire. He doesn't have to do things like that. He can choose any way to make money that he wants." I assume you would never tell Jake, "Hey, you know what? It's okay."

Mark Cuban: [00:26:26] No, hell no. You see it on Shark Tank. You see me yelling at Kevin and some of the others and they yell back at me. “Well, at least, let the guy -- ” you know, whoever's pitching, once I see it's a scam or they're making a false claim, they're like, "Why don't you let the guy talk?" I'm like, "Why would I let this guy talk and maybe convince people that their balance bracelet is real?" You know?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:26:44] Yeah.

Mark Cuban: [00:26:44] And that it might work or when you say that you can lose 11 percent of your body weight by taking this pill, it might work. I mean, no, there is no reason to let them continue at all. And I don't pick the deals that come on, obviously, but I love it when I get to tear people apart like that. One, I enjoy it, But two, I want to protect people.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:27:01] Yeah. Yeah. I think that's admirable. A lot of people would just say, "You know what? Play stupid games, win stupid prizes." That's the phrase. I don't really think that's a good thing to say when you're talking about 18-year-old kids.

Mark Cuban: [00:27:12] No, or anybody for that matter.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:27:13] Yeah. It just doesn't make any sense to me. You also hate patent trolls and I've done shows on this. What other business-damaging government -- or otherwise -- systems do you think need to be dismantled? You know, is there anything that ranks up there with the patent system in terms of having outgrown? 

Mark Cuban: [00:27:27] Patents across the board, but licensing. I think it's the state of Louisiana that in order to wash hair, you have to be licensed and you have to have some ridiculous 200 hours of apprentice experience. I mean, that's ridiculous. The fact that just starting a business isn't just one-button click. You know, in the city of Dallas, you want to start a business, you go online, you fill out a couple of forms, you hit one button, maybe you put in your credit card and it's, you know, $99. Just stuff like that, you have to remove the friction from those things. And licensing, those crazy licensing protects people who don't need to be protected.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:27:59] Yeah, that actually is a good point. I hadn't thought about licensing at all. But you're right, there's something there that just says, "You know what? We're going to kind of tax it, but in this way that makes you start your business later,” which makes no sense.

Mark Cuban: [00:28:10] Just tax it.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:28:11] Just tax it.

Mark Cuban: [00:28:11] I mean, if the city needs money, just tax it. Every time you wash somebody's hair, it's a dollar a head. Don't make them work 200 hours and get a licensing fee because that just reduces employment. It makes things difficult.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:28:23] I was surprised to hear you say that there's luck involved in being a billionaire. I think many, many people who are well-off think that their wealth is solely the result or almost solely the result of their own hard work. And this has been studied. It's just rare to acknowledge this in public, I think. And I respect that.

Mark Cuban: [00:28:37] Well, I appreciate it. Look, I mean, in my first company, the stock market wasn't huge for those types of companies. My second company, the stock market was huge for that type of Internet company. I didn't plan that. I didn't predict it, but I certainly benefited from it. And you know, could I become a millionaire again? Absolutely. Multiple times over. I've done it many times, but could I hit billionaire again? Only if I got lucky.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:28:59] Yeah. The level of scale involved with that is just something that requires you catching fire in multiple areas.

Mark Cuban: [00:29:04] Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:29:05] You knew early on that you wouldn't be an employee. I wonder how you knew that and also how you knew you could succeed outside the structure of the nine-to-five job.

Mark Cuban: [00:29:15] I knew it because I got fired because my bosses hated me because I was too belligerent and too aggressive. That's just the way it was. First three jobs I had never lasted more than nine months. That's a good indication.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:29:28] Yeah.

Mark Cuban: [00:29:29] And then I knew I had to do it on my own and I just didn't have a choice. You know, I'm living with six guys in a three-bedroom apartment, and this is at a time when the last time that unemployment was above 10 percent was the year I graduated from college. That extended for a few years and so it wasn't like jobs were easy to come by.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:29:47] Yeah. I sort of fell into a similar -- I graduated in 2007 from law school and it was like, "Oh, you're not getting another job." I luckily had already started the internship, so they hired us, but they let all of us go. The romance of “This will all be over by May -- the whole recession,” that ended really quick.

Mark Cuban: [00:30:04] Really quick.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:30:05] It was like, "Oh, you're doing this radio show thing? Why don't you go ahead and do that for a few years? Because you're not getting into this pattern." 

Mark Cuban: [00:30:11] There you go.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:30:12] And here we are. Here's the thing though, plenty of kids and young people, they don't want to be employees and they're going, "I get fired all the time. I'm the next Mark Cuban." Most of them are not necessarily able to be entrepreneurs. What's the difference between -- 

Mark Cuban: [00:30:23] Yeah, they can.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:30:24] You think so?

Mark Cuban: [00:30:25] Oh yeah, but the difference, there are people who are born to do it. I mean, like I was born to do it, and I just had it. I was just always selling and selling and selling. And if you can sell, you can be an entrepreneur, you just have to start that company for whatever you're good at selling. But for everybody else, if you have a vision, but you're willing to do the work to follow through, it's more about preparation and it's more about investing the time to become knowledgeable. It's just like with what you've done with the podcast. It wasn't like it was inherent to you to know all about podcasts and shows. You learned it as you went along. And most people aren't willing to do that. So it's not that anybody can't be an entrepreneur. But if you're finding yourself asking “What kind of companies should I start?” you're not ready. “What do you think I should do?” You're not ready. “Am I ready to start this company?” You're not ready. If you find yourself, “I know this so much better than this company, this company, this company, if I can get in there and just get one account,” then you're ready.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:31:19] Yeah. Those kids that made CRMs pre-Salesforce. But I had friends who were like, "Look, you know those people you’ve got to email and you’ve got to remember? I’ve got a database, but it's not just a spreadsheet, dah, dah, dah." And I was thinking, this guy is going to be rich as hell.

Mark Cuban: [00:31:31] Yeah, I actually, I wrote it out back in the '80s that mimicked an app called Act!

Jordan Harbinger: [00:31:37] I know, yeah.

Mark Cuban: [00:31:37] And it was going way back when. And CRM, it was just sales management, customer, revenue management, retention management, resource management, depending on your angle. But wherever you can go with it, if you can do it better and solve a problem, go.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:30:53] You said to ask yourself, “Why can't it be me or my company that changes the game?" That seems like a good thing to do. I think it took me years to even be like, “I have permission to start my own business,” because I didn't grow up that way. And I think a lot of us don't. You have to get a job.

Mark Cuban: [00:32:08] Yeah. I just had no choice. Yeah. With me, I was trying to get jobs. I just couldn't keep them. And I just got to the point, like we said earlier, I just knew I was a lousy-ass employee, and my next job was not going to be any different than the last jobs. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:32:21] Should we be manufacturing in China? I mean, now that came out of -- should we even be talking about this? Maybe we shouldn't endanger the NBA more than it already is.

Mark Cuban: [00:32:28] Yeah, look, you can manufacture in China, but we still should be doing everything possible to kick their ass so we don't have to anymore. I get all these emails from people. "Oh, you push people to manufacture in China." No, I don't. Every single product I've ever had manufactured, I've tried to make it here first. But now what we're doing that's differently, I'm working with those companies because the cost of robotics is dropping and the software is improving. Now,you still don't have full manual dexterity, so you can't do everything. But we’ve got to get to a point where we can kick their ass. Just making it here is just going to make it harder for us to compete globally. And we've been through the process, maybe it'll be different this time of -- okay, buy USA, spend a premium, but when your back's against the wall and you barely have enough money to live, or you don't have a job, you're just buying whatever is cheap.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:33:11] Sure, yeah.

Mark Cuban: [00:33:13] And so while it sounds good, we're not ready for that.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:33:16] How often do people come to you with business ideas? I imagine every single day.

Mark Cuban: [00:33:20] Oh, of course. Yeah, I get emails about everything every day.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:33:22] Is email the best way to get ahold of you or are there other ways to get better?

Mark Cuban: [00:33:25] Yeah, you know email is always the best way because I'll read the first paragraph and if I'm interested, I'll keep reading it. And if not, I'll hit delete.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:33:31] What sort of structure do you think people should follow? You said the first paragraph, but what goes in there where you go, "This person is not a moron. I'm going to keep going."

Mark Cuban: [00:33:38] You know, they tell me, "This is what I do that's different and unique, and here's why we can make money with it." But if you go into your backstory, "I went to college at Indiana University and my junior year, I did this and my sophomore year I broke my leg skiing. So I wasn't able to do that." No, delete. If it's, "I wrote this software package that I don't think anybody else is able to do; here's the problem it solves. I'm in Cincinnati, Ohio. I don't have access to a lot of resources. Could you keep on reading and tell me what you think?" I'll keep on reading.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:34:09] Huh, yeah, it seems like a great way to get invested in  -- how many companies? 200 and -- how many?

Mark Cuban: [00:34:14] Yeah, 200. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:34:15] Yeah, lost track? Doesn't right now?

Mark Cuban: [00:34:17] Yeah, for the most part, yeah. You know, what's embarrassing. Jordan? Someone will send me an email from one of the companies and I forget what they did. It's brutal.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:34:24] Oh, yeah.

Mark Cuban: [00:34:25] So I always have to go to markcuban.com where I have all the lists of my companies. I know which ones the Shark Tank companies have, which ones are others, but I go through and I look through the list.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:34:33] It's like, “Note to self, name your company Stand-Up Paddleboard so that when he sees that, he knows what I do.”

Mark Cuban: [00:34:39] Exactly, exactly.

Jen Harbinger: [00:34:42] This is The Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest Mark Cuban. We'll be right back. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:34:47] This episode is sponsored in part by Skillshare. A lot of us are cooped up. I know I'm feeling cooped up. Creativity and self-care is a good look. These days, learning as a way to feel productive, fend off a little boredom, maybe even just learning as escapism. I know that that's worked for me as well. Just what am I going to do? I'm going to learn German because I can't leave the house. 

Peter Oldring: [00:35:05] Right.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:35:06] Skillshare is an online learning community with thousands of inspiring classes for creative and curious people. So you can explore new skills, deepen existing passions. There are classes in just about every topic, productivity, lifestyle, entrepreneurship, creative writing. That's always a good outlet.

Peter Oldring: [00:35:21] I love it.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:35:21] Video and graphic design, illustration animation, web development, marketing, photography -- you name it. 

Peter Oldring: [00:35:27] Loom weaving. One might imagine.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:35:29] Loom weaving? Maybe. A real class that's in there aside from loom weaving, which I assume is not in there. It's everyday minimalism. We're moving right now. And I'm like, what do I have all this crap? We're going through drawers and drawers of stuff in the garage and in the house. And I'm just like, why does this even -- why do we have this? It doesn't make any sense. Unbelievable!

Peter Oldring: [00:35:46] Yes. You're Marie-Kondo-ing as it were.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:35:48] Kind of like, "Does this bring me joy? No. Was it expensive? Yes. Do I feel guilty? Yes."

Peter Oldring: [00:35:53] It's sparking joy, but something's getting triggered.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:35:55] Something is definitely getting triggered. Yes. Break up that routine of your day indoors. And of course, we're getting you a discount on that. Peter, tell them where they can get some Skillshare, some skills.

Peter Oldring: [00:36:05] Explore your creativity and get two free months of premium membership at skillshare.com/harbinger. That's two whole months of unlimited access to thousands of classes for free. Get started and joined today by heading to skillshare.com/harbinger. That is two free months of unlimited access to thousands of classes at skillshare.com/harbinger.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:36:30] This episode is also sponsored by LightStream. I recommend not keeping a credit card balance of any kind, and I know that's easier said than done for a lot of folks. They're like, "Great. Yeah, tell me that three years ago before I actually got a balance and it started spiraling wildly out of control." Well, get a credit card consolidation loan from LightStream and you could actually save thousands in interest. You can get an interest rate as low as 5.95 percent APR with autopay and excellent credit. And what this means is instead of paying -- like what are credit cards, Peter? Like 14, 21 percent.

Peter Oldring: [00:37:01] At least. The 100 percent I think is mine. So I've gotten ripped off.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:37:05] That doesn't sound like a good card. The Chuck E. Cheese card is not a good look. Over 19 percent is actually the average credit card interest rate, which is insane. So imagine that, compare that to 5.95 percent.

Peter Oldring: [00:37:20] I mean, the math has got to be in there somewhere. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:37:19] There is math there.

Peter Oldring: [00:37:22] The number between that has got to be more than 10.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:37:24] There is. There is math in there. Yes. The rate is fixed. It doesn't go up over the life of the loan. There are no fees. Application is quick, it's easy. It's a hundred percent online. You can get the money pretty fast. As soon as the day you apply as fast as that.

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Jordan Harbinger: [00:37:37] This company actually does care about it. I did a long call with them because I usually don't take financial sponsors. So Peter, tell them where they can apply for this from LightStream and hopefully stop paying out the nose and interest. 

Peter Oldring: [00:37:49] Absolutely. Apply today and get a special interest rate discount and save even more. The only way that you can get this discount is to go to lightstream.com/jordan. That is L-I-G-H-T-S-T-R-E-A-M.com/jordan. Subject to credit approval rate includes a 0.5 percent autopay discount. Terms and conditions apply and offers are subject to change without notice. Visit lightstream.com/jordan for more information.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:38:15] This episode is also sponsored in part by Progressive Insurance 

Peter Oldring: [00:38:18] Fun fact, progressive customers qualify for an average of six discounts when they sign up for Progressive Auto Insurance. Discounts for things like enrolling in automatic payments, ensuring more than one car, going paperless, and of course, being a safe driver. Plus customers who bundle their auto with home or add renter's insurance can save an average of 12 percent on their auto. There are so many ways to save when you switch. And once you are a customer with Progressive, you get unmatched claim service with 24 seven support online or by phone. It's no wonder why more than 20 million drivers trust Progressive. And that's why they've recently climbed to the third-largest auto insurer in the country. Get a quote online@progressive.com in as little as five minutes and see how much it could be saving. Auto insurance from Progressive Casualty Insurance company and affiliates, home and renter's insurance not available in all states. Provided and serviced by affiliated and third-party insurers. Discounts vary and are not available in all states and situations.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:39:13] By the way, stay tuned after this show, because after The Jump, we're going to have a trailer for our episode, with Ken Perenyi, an art forger, who dodged both the FBI and the mafia and forged thousands of paintings. Very well apparently because he was never caught. So stay tuned after the show for a trailer of that episode, from that interview.

[00:39:31] Thank you for listening and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers keeps us going to learn more and get links to all the great discounts you just heard. So you can check out those amazing sponsors for yourself, visit jordanharbinger.com/deals. And don't forget that worksheet for today's episode. The link is in the show notes at jordanharbinger.com/podcast. And now for the conclusion of our episode here with Mark Cuban.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:39:56] I think you should run for president. I know you said it's not off the table. I mean, obviously, it's too late for 2020. I don't know how those things work.

Mark Cuban: [00:40:02] Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:40:02] But I'm not even just blowing smoke here. Because you're a businessman who actually gives a crap about workers and the economy as it affects people other than you and other people with yachts that have other yachts inside them.

Mark Cuban: [00:40:12] Right.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:40:12] And there's a trend of having TV stars in The White House, you know? 

Mark Cuban: [00:40:16] Yeah. That's not a good trend. If I ever did run, him being there is the worst thing that ever happened to that opportunity.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:40:22] Yeah, probably.

Mark Cuban: [00:40:24] Because people kind of associate that with him, but yeah, it would have to take just a strange, strange, crazy confluence of events, which are marginally better than zero, but not much. So I don't see it happening this time and it's not my life dream. It was more about, these are the candidates that aren't that great. I think I could do the job and here's my skill set. I think it's a necessary skill set and that's why I've had the conversation.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:40:48] I mean, I know you're big on independent candidates, but what do you think of the ones that we have right now? Like Andrew Yang, Bernie, you know, what do you think of those types of candidates? 

Mark Cuban: [00:40:56] That we had, you mean?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:40:57] Yeah, that we had, sorry, yeah, I guess.

Mark Cuban: [00:40:59] You know, I liked Andrew. I'm not a fan of Bernie's. Bernie talks about some great and big platitudes, his heart's in the right place, but he never says how he is going to do it. He says that's intentional. He doesn't want to have to say how he's going to do it. And that just doesn't sit well with me. And Elizabeth Warren kind of fell into the same role. I like Andrew. He's open. He's honest. He's self-aware. He's not a politician. I'm a fan of CBI, but not UBI. And you know, I think caretaker basic income is great. Particularly now, given the circumstances, I may not have had the same answer months ago, but right now I think it's important that if you're caring for your kids, your parents, your grandparents -- you know, somebody who's ill and your family, then yeah, we should be giving you some money. Because you're working, you're actually improving the productivity of the country. I'm not a fan of UBI. I'm a believer in what John F. Kennedy had to say: “Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.” And that's why I'm more positive about the transitional jobs program because there's productivity, and from productivity comes improvements in the economy and the state of living for everybody.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:42:03] You kind of hinted at this earlier in the show, that someone at the top absolutely has to get a handle on technology, especially AI robotics. Was it 5G networking was the other area that you mentioned? I'm trying to --

Mark Cuban: [00:42:14] Yeah, 5G precision medicine was the other one I mentioned. Effectively our bodies are one big math equation, and every single day we learn a little bit more about the variables and what they are. And we need to keep on pushing that forward as we're finding out now with the virus.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:42:27] Do you think China has a massive advantage with AI because of the amount of data they have access to?

Mark Cuban: [00:42:32] Not yet, but that's an opportunity for them to pass us.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:42:34] Yeah.

Mark Cuban: [00:42:35]  And so when you look at where the research is coming from, they're expanding exponentially and so are we, and so we're still ahead. They don't do a good job with semiconductors. They don't do a good job with cloud computing and processing speed availability to deal with AI, but they're investing a whole lot more than we are as a country. And that's critical. Look, in every one of my businesses, I've always said, “How can my competitors kick my ass?” Well, for USA Inc., America Inc., we have to ask “How can China kick our ass?” And they're investing in technologies. It's not that we're not investing, but we're not nearly investing as much as they are. And to your point, you know, they don't care about individual human rights or privacy.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:43:18] Yeah.

Mark Cuban: [00:43:18] And so there are cameras everywhere, which allows them to learn more and they're using it in bad ways, but that's still the knowledge that they have that we don't have access to

Jordan Harbinger: [00:43:28] What would you tackle first, if you were to end up in The White House? Let's say you woke up tomorrow and you’re the president.

Mark Cuban: [00:43:33] Healthcare.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:43:34] Healthcare?

Mark Cuban: [00:43:35] Yeah, because here we are in the middle of a pandemic. We're having riots and looting, and we don't know how that's going to intersect with the pandemic. And there's a lot of uncertainty. Yet, we know that more people are going to get sick but no one's talking about healthcare. There are some basic things on people being added to the ACA. There's not a whole lot of talk about the expansion of Medicare. There's not a lot of talk about Medicaid or the expansion of Medicaid, rather. There's not a lot of talk -- you know, we've got hospitals who're laying off people and not going out of business yet, but we're subsidizing. What should hospitals look like next? That's what should healthcare look like on the other side of this pandemic, recognizing we might face this again. No one's having that conversation even a tiny bit.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:44:15] It's scary to think that because it's not -- I don't even think we may face it again. I think it's just inevitable. I mean, it's always inevitable, that we have to face this again.

Mark Cuban: [00:44:21] If it’s not COVID, it's something else, right? 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:44:23] Yeah, for sure. And it seems like that's now with invading the environment in the end if we're really getting those things from animals, like why would that slow down or stop?

Mark Cuban: [00:44:30] Exactly. And I think that's what's happened. I don't think it's an accident that so many hotspots are meatpacking and slaughtering plants. So if it was through traffic and jumped from a bat to a person, why couldn't it jump from cattle or pigs or chickens, whatever, because I just put in animals and COVID-19 and it talked about how animals not pets, but more food-based and things that we use for food, they exchanged viruses through feces. So if they're in sloppy locations, these viruses are transmitted between them and they become hotspots in and of themselves. And so it's just inconceivable that it's just by chance. And particularly when from a business perspective, every slaughter or processing plant, they're doing everything possible to keep their employees safe because otherwise, they're out of business.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:45:21] Right.

Mark Cuban: [00:45:22] And they're going to get closed down. So I don't think it's where it was maybe at the beginning where they don't have PPE and they're not protecting them. They have to -- it costs them more not to than it does to protect them. So it just correlation isn't causation, but it just seems to me like if I had to toss a coin or make a bet that I think it’s happened more than just from a bat.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:45:42] If you were president, how would you improve race relations? Not that I'm trying to constantly lead you in that direction.

Mark Cuban: [00:45:47] Yeah. I mean, I'd hug a few people. I'd walk out there and listen. I'd take advice. I wouldn't think I had all the answers.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:45:55] What type of job do you think this administration has done on race relations?

Mark Cuban: [00:46:00] Just look outside. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:46:02] Yeah. Yeah. I can smell the smoke from here, I suppose. This piece you wrote, Dear White People, we’re the ones that need to change. This is probably controversial. I would imagine you get some blowback from something like that.

Mark Cuban: [00:46:12] Yeah. Look, on Twitter, you're going to get blowback on everything. And so a lot of people felt I was calling them out as racist, which I wasn't doing. In order for things to change, then people need to take measures and understand, be very self-aware about what's going on with them, and how people are living their lives. And the example I used with one guy. So I asked him this --  the guy was just ripping on me via email. And I like to engage in some of these things because it's just interesting to me. I want to see if they'll change their minds, which typically they won't and just where their heads are at. And so I used the example, I said, “Look, let me try to explain it. I don't have a lot of standing. I'm white obviously, but let me try to explain how this has been explained to me.” Black Americans, particularly African-American men, when they go out -- I'm not going to have to explain to Jake what it's like to be afraid if you get pulled over by an officer and to only pull over where there's light, not where it’s dark. Or if you have somebody in the car with the phone, have them video record it. That's not a conversation I've ever had to have or will ever have to have with my kids. I've always grown up where the interactions with the police were positive. Right?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:47:16] Sure.

Mark Cuban: [00:47:16] So I said to this guy, I said, "All right. That's the kind of stress they deal with." They're diminished. People don't respect them. They're walking or running through a neighborhood, someone might call the cops. They're in a store, someone is looking at them. I said, "The only way you're going to be able to feel that -- and tell me what you would feel like, because this is a big issue for conservatives." I said, "Imagine you put on a MAGA hat and red MAGA t-shirt, and you walked through downtown New York, or you walked in one of the protests, peaceful protests. How afraid would you be? Even though all those people around you are law-abiding citizens, would you be concerned? If you walk into a store with that same MAGA hat and MAGA t-shirt, do you think people are going to stare at you and look at you twice?" Because you look at the conservative media, whenever somebody with that outfit, he gets -- what's the right word -- yelled at or screamed at, or even pushed, it becomes an issue of focus. Now imagine if you could never take that hat off. Imagine if you could never take that shirt off and no matter where you went and no matter what you did, you were always wondering how people were looking at you and whether or not all they saw was that red hat and a red shirt that said, “Keep America Great” even though you didn't have it on. How would you feel every single day? And I said, "That's still not as bad as what African-Americans and other ethnicities have to go through every single day." And the fact that it's an everyday issue for them, that's what bubbled up. And that's what led to all this. And I'm not trying to speak for the African-American or ethnic communities, they have leaders to speak for themselves, but when we talk about white people having to do a little bit more, at least trying to understand it, gives you some concept and lets you understand that their perspective and what they have to go through and the stresses that they go through are far different than what we go through.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:49:04] Do you think you have an increased awareness of this because of your Jewish history?

Mark Cuban: [00:49:08] Well, yeah, not so much because I'm Jewish. Because of what we went through at the Mavs with sexual harassment that just changed the game for me. I learned very painfully -- but more painfully for some of the women that work there -- that treating people equally does not mean treating them the same. I always thought that man, woman, white, black, it was more like a math equation. However, I treated Jordan, I was going to treat somebody, a woman, right. I was going to treat them exactly the same. And didn't really realize that particularly the power dynamics are so different and that you can't do that. You can't literally treat them equally. And you've got to be able to recognize who they are, where they're from, what challenges they have. And once I did that, our business got a lot better and obviously brought it in our CEO Cynthia Marshall certainly educated me a lot more, but it's a process of learning. Being Jewish, it's one thing. On my mom's side, about a quarter of her family got wiped out in the Holocaust. When my grandfather came over here on all sides, all grandparents came here from Russia. They didn't come here because they thought the weather was nice. They came here because if they didn't leave, they'd be dead. And when they worked at a grocery store here in Passaic, New Jersey in 1938. The Kristallnacht, they got burned down and that led to them moving to Pittsburgh.

[00:50:22] So yeah, I think there's an understanding there. And then when I say stuff, like when I said it's white people that need to change, I had so many, if you read my mentions, it was crazy. I had so many people saying, "You're not white. You're Jewish."

Jordan Harbinger: [00:50:35] Ooh, interesting.

Mark Cuban: [00:50:36] Oh, yeah. "You're not white. You're Jewish. You're Semitic." I'm like, "Okay. I did not know that." You know, there's always going to be idiots and yes, being Jewish has given me -- allowed me to be more empathetic, but what I went through with the Mavs and what I learned there and I watched the people that work for me go through that was far more impactful for me.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:50:55] What do you think, just personally, is the biggest change in your life? When you finally made -- let's say your first, like real fortune, not like the first time you sold the company, but the first sort of real fortunate where you go, "Okay, I literally never have to do anything again that I don't want to do." Whenever I talk to people in that position, the changes are surprisingly minute, like you live in a big house, you fly in your own plane. Like that's great. But the things that nobody thinks of that are the changes that really make a difference. Do you have anything like that that comes to mind?

Mark Cuban: [00:51:23] Yeah, just less stress. I don't have to worry about the bills. Like I couldn't tell you what my electric bill was last month. Probably I don't want to know with my kids. I don't stress about bills anymore and that's the biggest difference. People say, "Well, what's the worst part about being a billionaire?" Nothing. Nothing, absolutely positively, nothing. But yeah, I've been on both sides where I had credit cards cut off -- like I said, I lived with six guys in a three-bedroom apartment. I didn't have any money. My roommates and I would go to the grocery store and be there at midnight because that's when they pushed down the price of chicken and we'd get our chicken packs. And so there's -- it's just no stress on the financial. Now kids and everything, health, I stress about my kids, like any parent does. You know, when my 16-year-old just learned how to drive and started driving, every time that door on her car closed, I was terrified and money can't change that.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:52:12] I assume you bought her a really safe car though, a huge car.

Mark Cuban: [00:52:14] Yeah. I bought her a Volvo. Yeah. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:52:18] “Try not to run into anything, but if you do, this is the toughest car.”

Mark Cuban: [00:52:21] Yeah. “This is the best car out.”

Jordan Harbinger: [00:52:23] I know that you had bill collectors chasing you and things like that back in the day when you were younger. Do you ever have nightmares about that stuff still?

Mark Cuban: [00:52:29] I get reminded all the time. Like I hear the phone ring or something or you just naturally look for a caller ID and see who it is and -- oh my God, thank God, there's no -- we don't really use answering machines anymore. Because, "Hi, Mr. Cuban, this is such-and-such bank. We're still expecting that payment." I mean, just not good memories. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:52:50] In closing here, what are you most optimistic about here? A lot of people don't seem to have much to look forward to right now. What do you think we should be looking forward to as a nation?

Mark Cuban: [00:52:59] I mean, look, there's no better time ever to start a business than right now because all businesses are effectively going through a reset. You know, as we start to open back up and figure out what's going on. Big businesses are protecting their legacy businesses and see what's going on. Medium-sized businesses are the same thing. Small businesses are just trying to adapt. If you're starting from scratch, you can build a restaurant that already deals with social distancing and HVAC that considers the virus and all that. You know, if you're starting a service company, you can start off working from home and be comfortable because people have already gotten used to Zoom. You don't have to find that first office. And so there's a lot of advantages. And with the protests and the riots that give us just one inkling of hope that maybe we'll make progress. That maybe this time, we'll listen and that's why I've tried to speak out. You’re asking me these questions are great. I'm trying to get involved in the minority community, going to events, go into black-owned businesses, minority-owned businesses. I'm trying to help any business that was looted and impacted. But in particular, those people who are at the greatest disadvantage right now, I've been trying to connect to and help.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:54:03] Mark Cuban. Thank you so much.

[00:54:08] Thanks to Mark Cuban for coming on the show today. Links to everything from him will, of course, be in the show notes. Please do use our website links if you buy anything from the show, books from authors, things like that. Worksheets for this episode. So you can take away everything you learned here from Mark Cuban. Those are in the show notes. Transcripts are in the show notes. There's a video of this interview on our YouTube channel at jordanharbinger.com/youtube.

[00:54:29] I'm teaching you how to connect with great people like Mark Cuban and manage relationships, using systems and tiny habits over at our Six-Minute Networking course, which is free and always will be, over at jordanharbinger.com/course. Dig the well before you get thirsty. Build those relationships before you need them. So you can work your network either for business or personal reasons. And honestly, it's just been rewarding for me to have people enrich my life like that. And it's a great systematic way to do it in a few minutes a day. And you don't have to go to stupid mixers and stuff like that. The course is free, not enter-your-credit-card free, just free-free at jordanharbinger.com/course. And by the way, many guests on the show, they subscribe to the course and the newsletter. Come join us, you'll be in smart company, that's where you belong. Tell Mark, you enjoyed this episode of the show, speaking of relationships. You can tweet at him. That'll be in the show notes. And if you want to tweet at me or follow me on Instagram, I'm at @JordanHarbinger on both of those platforms. You can also add me on LinkedIn. I post a lot there probably more than anywhere else these days.

[00:55:25] This show is created in association with PodcastOne. This episode was produced by Jen Harbinger, engineered by Jase Sanderson. The ads were fun because of Peter Oldring. Show notes and worksheets by Robert Fogarty, music by Evan, Viola. Special, thanks to Steven Cohen. And I'm your host Jordan Harbinger. Our advice and opinions, and those of our guests are their own, and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. And remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for this show is that you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting. Got a Shark Tank fan, gotten someone who's trying to get investment. Somebody who's interested in tech -- Mark Cuban, he covers a lot of bases. Share this episode with him. Hopefully, you find something great in every episode. So please do share the show with those you love. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show, so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time.

Ken Perenyi: [00:56:18] He gave me a book on art forgery. I found myself drawn to these old masters. How did these artists take paint from a pallet? Arrange it on a canvas. I began to unlock the secrets. I was a storehouse of knowledge of how to create an illusion. Present it to an experienced expert, manipulate his mind, and convince him and bring him to the inevitable conclusion that the painting is genuine.

[00:56:58] We flooded the market with my paintings and I couldn't believe what I did. I couldn't believe it. Then the dominoes started falling and eventually the FBI was led to my door. They uncovered a mountain of evidence against me.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:57:16] But they never actually got you. At this point, you sold a lot. You've got like a million dollars in cash. You sold one painting for 717,000. Why did it go away? Why did you never get indicted? And how are we having this conversation?

Ken Perenyi: [00:57:33] I guess that's the greatest story of all.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:57:36] To hear how Ken Perenyi made millions in art forgery, dodged the mafia and the FBI, subscribe to The Jordan Harbinger Show and check out episode 282 in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now.