Your faith in the justice system has been shaken because you were arrested for defending yourself against a gun-wielding ex who was threatening to end your life. Now you want to use what you have left of your GI bill to become a criminal defense attorney to help others, but you’re still struggling to overcome the trauma you endured from the system’s unjust actions against you. What can you do to move on? Welcome to Feedback Friday!
And in case you didn’t already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at firstname.lastname@example.org. Now let’s dive in!
On This Week’s Feedback Friday, We Discuss:
- Your ambition to become a criminal defense attorney to help others seems to be on hold until you can trust the system that had you arrested for defending yourself against a gun-wielding ex who was threatening to end your life. What can you do to move on? [Thanks to attorney Corbin Payne for helping us field this one!]
- You had a dream job in the medical field, but proximity to opioids proved too tempting and it led to termination and a criminal record. Now on the path to recovery, you’re in search of work you find fulfilling that won’t coax you back into the arms of addiction. But where do you even begin?
- Your kind and hardworking mother-in-law nearing retirement could be renting out her spare house to help pay mounting medical bills, but instead, it’s occupied by her deadbeat nephew who contributes nothing. How can you intervene on her behalf to ensure he starts chipping in without stirring up family drama (and sticking you with the eventual bill)?
- Now in your 30s, you’d like to have a baby sooner rather than later. Unfortunately, your husband seems content to keep stalling and you worry that maybe he never really wants to have kids at all. It doesn’t help matters that you’ve found flirty messages between him and his coworker, but you feel like leaving him to find someone new to start a family is risking time you don’t have. What do you do?
- A decade ago, you and your best friend were very much of the same negative, expect-the-worst mindset. Since then, you’ve lucked out with a great partner who’s been supportive, and your trajectory has been on the up and up. Your friend, however, remains stuck struggling with many of the same problems you once shared, and you find it harder to be there for him in a way that’s helpful. What’s the best tack to take here?
- Have any questions, comments, or stories you’d like to share with us? Drop us a line at email@example.com!
- Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger.
- Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi.
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Please Scroll Down for Featured Resources and Transcript!
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Miss the last time we had Navy SEAL leadership authority and Extreme Ownership co-author Jocko Willink on the show? Make sure to check out episode 93: Jocko Willink | Leading on the Line Between Extreme and Reckless!
Resources from This Episode:
- Jane McGonigal | How to See the Future and Be Ready for Anything | Jordan Harbinger
- Shaquille O’Neal | Circling Back on Flat Earth Theory | Jordan Harbinger
- How Often Can You Get COVID-19? ‘At Least a Couple Times a Year,’ Experts Say. | Advisory Board
- Affordable, Private Therapy Anytime, Anywhere | BetterHelp
- Corbin Payne | Twitter
- Jason Flom | Why Criminal Justice Reform Matters to the Innocent | Jordan Harbinger
- How Eminem Disarms His Critics By Dissing Himself | Genius
- Don’t Talk to the Police | Regent University School of Law
- Punishment without Trial: Why Plea Bargaining Is a Bad Deal by Carissa Byrne Hessick | Amazon
- Principles of Effective Treatment | National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA)
- Self-Help Addiction Recovery Program | SMART Recovery Addiction Support Groups
- How to Get Someone Out: Evicting a Family Member With No Lease | Realtor
- The Pros and Cons of a Default Divorce | DivorceNet
692: Self-Defense Against Ex Led to Unjust Arrest | Feedback Friday
[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, my sidekick in salvation, Gabriel Mizrahi. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. We want to help you see the Matrix when it comes to how these amazing people think and behave. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. So you can get a deeper understanding of how the world works and make sense of what's really happening even inside your own mind.
[00:00:37] If you're new to the show on Fridays, we give advice to you and answer listener questions. The rest of the week, we have long-form interviews and conversations with a variety of incredible people from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, and performers. This week, we had Jane McGonigal on predictions for the future, especially in tech, really interesting stuff coming down the pipe. Also, we discussed how we can learn to spot trends for ourselves based on current technology and the way things are going. She's a really brilliant thinker. And I think you're going to enjoy that. We also had Shaq — that's one from the vault — talking about A-list levels of fame, how he makes important decisions, especially in life and business, how he knows who to trust and just other subjects that I think I've never really heard him discuss before. I really enjoyed that one as well. Hope you will do the same. Make sure you've had a listen to everything that we created for you here this week.
[00:01:27] Now, as you can hear, Gabe, I'm a little congested.
[00:01:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. A little off.
[00:01:32] Jordan Harbinger: I've got the COVID. It finally got me. I've become a statistic.
[00:01:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: No. How are you doing?
[00:01:37] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:01:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: Are you holding up okay? It doesn't sound that bad, actually.
[00:01:40] Jordan Harbinger: No. Actually, I was surprised to find out I had it. So I had a sinus infection for the past couple of weeks. I've always had these as a kid. This is going way back. So that was no surprise. I went and tested negative, and I got antibiotics for the sinus thing, which I never do. I usually just wait freaking five weeks until it clears up because I just always have trouble. I mean, I even had my tonsils out as an adult. So this is no — I'm no stranger to the sinus thing. So Jen says, "Why don't you take another COVID test? Because you had your live show. I just want to make sure that it's not that." And I was like, "It's not that, but fine." So I took a COVID test and there was the darkest line for the positive.
[00:02:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.
[00:02:19] Jordan Harbinger: It was like the maximum amount of red on that line. Yeah. There's the control line, which was like a normal red. And then mine was just, almost like a black line.
[00:02:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.
[00:02:29] Jordan Harbinger: It was so deep crimson all the way down. And I was like, "Oh, I have a lot of COVID right now.
[00:02:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. You got an A-plus on that COVID test.
[00:02:37] Jordan Harbinger: I got an A-plus. Exactly. I got extra credit. So I am isolating in my office here at home, which is conveniently sealed, right? Because it's sealed for sound. So I have a thick door with a brush under it. There's no airflow inside here that goes out there because the ducts are soundproof. So it's a completely isolated environment, which is just massively convenient with a door—
[00:03:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: Perfect.
[00:03:00] Jordan Harbinger: —that goes outside the house, a separate entrance. And then I'm sleeping in our guest room, which is also sealed up for noise because my parents are light sleepers and so we sealed that room up. And that also has an outside entrance. So at all hours of the day, I'm like, you know, in my underwear, walking outside my house — it's fenced in whatever, but I'm like walking from my studio with the door open to the bedroom with the door. So I have this almost totally separate dwelling.
[00:03:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.
[00:03:26] Jordan Harbinger: That's split up into two pieces inside my house. But the office is a freaking mess right now. The studio that I'm in right now is an absolute disaster area.
[00:03:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's like a little COVID sanctuary man cave now.
[00:03:37] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. COVID sanctuary man cave is where it's at. It's like I've got drinks everywhere. You know, I got to have my ivermectin-ies at night. No, I'm not on that train, obviously.
[00:03:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: Slamming those teenies like that woman who went to the wedding.
[00:03:54] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. No, I am just letting nature take its course with this because it is so light and so easy. You know, I've got the vitamins and stuff. I've got friends of mine who are like doctors, and they're like here take all these different supplements and vitamins, but the medicine you don't really need it unless you have really bad symptoms. You don't want to take Paxlovid unless you got bad symptoms because it's hard on your liver and kidneys. You don't want to just go and get infusions of stuff if you're feeling okay. Like I said, if I didn't have a sinus issue that I already had before, COVID I wouldn't even know I had anything. I would've been asymptomatic. So the last thing I want to do is push my body through.
[00:04:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh man, I'm glad it's not too bad.
[00:04:32] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. The only issue is I can't help Jen with the kids. So she's like, "Geez. This sucks for me." You know, she's really like suffering. She's suffering much worse than I am with COVID. The good news is I am prepped for shows like a month in advance now because I have nothing—
[00:04:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: Sure.
[00:04:48] Jordan Harbinger: —else to do but sit in the office. I've already plowed through every book and all these different courses and stuff like that I was going to check out.
[00:04:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: Honestly, it sounds like COVID is working out really well for you.
[00:04:58] Jordan Harbinger: It's working out great for me. No, the reason I bring this up is because I hate when podcast hosts chat about their life. Like, "How is your week?" I can't stand it. It's a waste of everyone's time. The reason this is actually a value add for the audience, in my opinion, is, I was absolutely stone-cold terrified of COVID in the beginning. I didn't want to get it a lot. I knew young, healthy people that died, you know, before — this is some of the earlier variants.
[00:05:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: Sure. Yeah.
[00:05:22] Jordan Harbinger: And then I was like, oh my gosh, what if kids get it? It's going to be this horrible thing. Now, we have so much more data on the fact that kids handle it well. We had that data earlier, but you know, you don't want your own kids to get it. Now that I've gotten it and I'm not suffering. I'm really, I'm really not. You know, like in the scheme of things, I'm fine. It's a massive relief because it was going to happen sometimes. COVID is coming for everyone, right? I mean, it's endemic now. You can know more avoid COVID than you can avoid the cold or the flu.
[00:05:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: Sure. Yeah.
[00:05:49] Jordan Harbinger: And the fact that this was not even as severe as a bad cold or the flu is a massive, massive relief. And so if you are — and I know there's a lot of other people that are still afraid of getting COVID, that are still worried about it. You shouldn't not be careful because COVID affects everybody differently. This is an anecdotal one-man experience. But I would say, now that I've done all this research on it now, there's so much treatment available. There's so many options that you have. Most of the people that are getting it now, their experiences like mine, they're not getting these crazy sort of COVID instances where they're down for the count and then getting long COVID like that stuff is almost relegated to previous versions of COVID.
[00:06:27] So I would say if you've lasted this long, if you're on level eight of Mario Bros. like I was before I got COVID, right? Like in terms of dodging it this whole time, you can sort of breathe the sigh of relief, exhale — as long as you're wearing a mask. You can breathe the sigh of relief because chances are, and again, you know, it affects everyone differently, but chances, the probabilities are in your favor that you're not going to get something horrific. That's going to damage you for the rest of your life and, you know, kill your offspring. We are sort of not completely out of the woods, but largely out of the burning Inferno—
[00:07:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.
[00:07:01] Jordan Harbinger: —forest fire version of COVID from what I understand.
[00:07:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. And I'm glad you didn't get it too bad, but that's a good point. It is kind of a relief. It's like the seal is broken and now you don't have to constantly stress about it.
[00:07:10] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Because I was, like, "Well, okay. I'm anything could happen. This could be really, really bad." And so to have it and then be like, oh, now you're immune for several months. And if you get it again, it's going to be even lighter. And this is the version I got. I really sort of drew like three aces on this hand of COVID. So hopefully, everybody else is in a similar boat. All right. Well, anyway, hopefully, that eases some people's minds. Everybody else is already skipped ahead, which is fine with me.
[00:07:36] By the way, the other week, I recommended to a listener on Feedback Friday to ask open-ended questions. And then I gave some examples of not open-ended questions, very closed-ended questions that could be answered with yes or no. Open-ended questions are questions that cannot be answered with the answers, yes or no. They are questions to get people to open up. Doctors use them. In fact, doctors are the ones that emailed me and they were like, "Hey dude, nice job with the open-ended questions and then giving examples of totally not open-ended questions." They didn't say it like that, but that's what they meant. And I'm going to do the responsible thing here and blame Gabriel. So yes, it's COVID brain and probably also Gabriel's fault, but certainly, certainly I take no personal responsibility for this. Open-ended questions require an answer that is not a yes or a no and they are very useful for getting people to continue talking. I don't know how I mess that up and it scares me that I did.
[00:08:26] By the way, if you've ever been an officiant at a wedding, I am going to officiate my friend's wedding and I would love any sort of dos and don'ts or tips. I think probably I'm going to be all right. I don't have stage fright or anything. I'm not worried about that. I'm more worried about, you know, those TikToks where somebody accidentally bumps into the bride and she falls into a freaking pond, that stuff I'm worried, I'm unreasonably worried about that stuff. And also not knowing some obvious things because I'm not sure. At some point when I get there, like does the wedding coordinator tell me what the F to do? How do I learn how to do this? I'm certified by the state to conduct the wedding. But beyond that, I have absolutely no clue what I'm doing or how to learn it and I've Googled it and there's a lot of useless stuff out there. And then there's people that want like 10 grand for them to send me a PDF. So, if you have any info on this, I would love some help because I want to crush this wedding and make it amazing for the bride and the groom and their whole family and make it memorable, but only in a good way. So if that's you email me, firstname.lastname@example.org and I welcome any and all tips and advice.
[00:09:26] So Gabe, what's the first thing out of the mailbag?
[00:09:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey Jordan and Gabe. Last year, I dated a woman I met while working at a psychiatric hospital. The irony as you're about to find out is real. Our relationship was great at first and she seemed like the one. However, things started to change a month in and she became emotionally abusive. I really loved her and I would drop everything to do something for her, but she always said I was selfish that I was immature and that I only cared for her because of her body. A few months into the relationship, we took a trip for her birthday. Without my knowledge, she took many of my medications, even though she was already on an anti-seizure medication that causes aggressive behavior and drank copious amounts of alcohol. Later that night, she physically assaulted me twice. Biting me so hard that I was bleeding, punching me, even throwing a chair at me and was arrested for aggravated assault. Despite all that, I got her charges dropped down, paid her bail, and retained a lawyer for her. Soon after I found out she had been cheating on me. So I broke up with her. That night, she came over extremely high and drank and tried to apologize. I didn't feel comfortable letting her drive home because she was so intoxicated. So I let her sleep on my couch. At four in the morning, she woke up and started screaming at me that I was ruining her life. She punched me, bit my hands as I raised them to defend myself, and finally took my loaded Glock and aimed it at me saying she was going to kill me.
[00:10:49] Jordan Harbinger: Oh my god.
[00:10:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: I tackled her, knocked the firearm away, and prevented her from getting it while I called 911. She immediately took off running back to her house. Despite having audio and video recording of her hitting me and saying quote, "No one will believe me," having called the police myself, her having outstanding charges against her and her being intoxicated, I was arrested because to use the detective's words, "I am a man and physically bigger than her." I spent 12 hours in county jail and was charged with aggravated assault. In the end, I agreed to a guilty plea, which seals my case to non-public record, dismisses it after a year of probation, and expunges my record. I was incredibly torn about the decision as I was pleading guilty to something I never did and she got away with almost killing me. I served in the Navy. I was a firefighter and I've always done right in my life and obeyed the law but since all of this happened, my beliefs about the police have changed. I lost my job because of the time I had to take off for this. And I have constant nightmares. Therapy has been helping, but I still struggle with the fact that justice was so wrongfully applied and that my life was essentially destroyed. I now want to use what I have left of my G.I. Bill to become a criminal defense attorney, but I'm still struggling with how to overcome this abuse. How can I heal my trauma to best help others? Signed, The Aspiring PTS-Defense Attorney.
[00:12:13] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. This is a super dark story, man. When you said you met this woman at a psych hospital, you know, I assume you meant she was on the staff, but now I'm wondering if maybe she was one of the patients. I am just shocked by how all of this went down. It really does sound like a failure at so many levels. And I don't blame you for being traumatized and disillusioned as a result. This is a huge blow. And I'm very sorry that this happened to you. This is terrifying, honestly.
[00:12:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: It is.
[00:12:44] Jordan Harbinger: That said, I love your attitude. I think it's amazing that you want to make some meaning out of this awful chapter. I know that'll be a powerful part of your recovery. Every sort of horrible thing that I've gone through, and I'm grateful it hasn't been that many when you make meaning out of it, it loses its hold over you and you kind of get a little bit more control of it. I'll say more about that later, I guess.
[00:13:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.
[00:13:06] Jordan Harbinger: I'm just glad to hear that you're in therapy. Obviously, that's always our first recommendation. We throw those betterhelp.com/jordan rest out there. That's absolutely the best place to process what sounds like pretty serious PTSD and move forward with your life therapy, that is. We wanted to get an expert's opinion on all of this, especially all things legal. So we reached out to Corbin Payne, defense attorney and friend of the show. And C Payne's reaction was even stronger than ours. I mean, this story made him really angry. We triggered Corbin Payne with this one.
[00:13:37] Essentially, if you had done what the police seemed to think you should have done, which was basically sit there and let your girlfriend do whatever she wanted, you might/probably would be dead. So the one big upside to all of this is you survived. Okay. Corbin pointed out that all of the terrible consequences of that night, they really do pale in comparison to you being murdered by this crazy woman. In other words, you did the right thing. I just wish the police had spent more than 30 freaking seconds listening to your story and deciding your fate here. The other thing you did to survive here was you took a plea for something you did not do and that you, in theory, could prove that you didn't do, but Corbin reminded us, hey, trials are expensive, they're messy, and most defendants, sadly, they do face the loss of their job. They do face ruinous legal expenses. They also face a system designed to maximize pressure on people to enter a plea agreement, regardless of whether they are actually guilty.
[00:14:43] So as Corbin put it, there's a reason a lot of defense attorneys and criminal justice reform activists, they talk about the criminal legal system instead of the criminal justice system. But now that you've survived, your job is to live with these decisions. You got to process them and you got to move forward. And the first step to doing that in Corbin's view is to continue processing your feelings around what happened, especially the shame piece. In Corbin's opinion, you shouldn't feel particularly ashamed about all this because you are one of thousands and thousands of people who experience thorough railroading in our courts every single day.
[00:15:23] Sadly, according to Corbin, you are not an exception to the rule. You are the rule. But in his view, if you walk away from all this believing, "Ah, there's no such thing as justice," you've learned the wrong lesson. Justice is attainable. Just not the way our current system is set up. Maybe, more importantly, that belief that there's no point, the system is incapable of serving justice, that's also going to derail any criminal defense career that you want to pursue.
[00:15:51] The second step to working through this is finding meaning in your experiences, and you're already doing that by writing to us. You're doing the work. You're exploring a legal career, which is excellent. Corbin's only advice there was while he applauds your desire to become a defense attorney, he feels there are actually more immediate ways to create meaning out of all this and maybe even more powerful ones. So his advice, consider telling the story of what happened to you, starting with some trusted friends. Then maybe branching out to groups, focused on criminal justice reform, advocating for the rights of the accused, maybe domestic violence support groups for men, places like that.
[00:16:29] We've talked about this a lot, how shame gets its power from secrecy. When you shine a light on it, it loses a lot of that power and it starts to become something else — growth, connection, motivation, healing. Most people don't realize, frankly, how messed up the legal system is what defendants go through. But you have an incredibly compelling story to bring that to life. And if you do end up going to law school, Corbin thinks that you'll find a lot of people there who will be very eager to hear your story. And who knows it could be the kind of story you tell in a job interview one day. It could be the reason you feel called to do defense work. These stories told the right way, they're very powerful.
[00:17:14] But a couple of practical things Corbin said you have to consider, first, you need to talk to the licensing board in your state. There are ethical requirements — and I almost chuckle at that because when you say ethical and lawyer too close together, people start to wince. There are ethical requirements lawyer candidates have to meet before they can swear in and one of them has to do with their criminal history. And his gut reaction is that a plea agreement ending with an expungement, that probably won't trip you up, but it's still something you should check into before you get into deep. The last thing you want to do here is go through law school, graduate, get a law degree. And they're like, "Oh, hey, you've got this thing. You can't get certified in the state of wherever you live. Sorry, buddy." And now you're like, "Well, crap, I've got student loans and debt and no job prospects." Frankly, you'd probably just have to move to another state, but it's still annoying.
[00:18:07] The other thing is just because the records are sealed that doesn't mean in a practical sense that your obviously psycho ex can't go around telling everyone what happened. Her version, "Well, he pleaded guilty. So I must be right, even though I'm the one who pulled the Glock and it's on video." It also doesn't mean the cops and prosecutors involved aren't going to run their mouths about your case. You know, if you're a criminal defense attorney and they're like, "Hey, isn't that guy we put away for aggravated assault." "Yeah. Well, probably, he knows the criminal justice system. You know what I'm saying?"
[00:18:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: Ooh, that's a dark possibility.
[00:18:39] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I mean, Corbin told us he actually heard of defense lawyers having some supposedly sealed stuff. Come out. Oh right around the time that those guys are kicking ass in court, which is just wild, speaking of ethical requirements and violations if you become a lawyer and you start winning cases, Corbin said, you're probably going to make a few enemies of people with lots of power who could get access to your records.
[00:19:01] So I'm not saying don't do it. In fact, the more you own this, the better off you are, because then it's like Eminem when he went up there to do that rap and he knew they were going to diss him and he threw all the diss in his own rap about himself. If you are owning this story and they're like, "Yeah, he did this." And you're like, "Yeah. And that's why I became a lawyer because the police system is a bunch of garbage and you're trying to do that to my client right now. Next," you know, they got nothing. The wind is out of their sails, but just be prepared for that possibility and know how you're going to respond.
[00:19:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: All great advice. He should be the Marshall Mathers of the legal community and he'll—
[00:19:34] Jordan Harbinger: That's right.
[00:19:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: —probably be okay.
[00:19:36] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's right.
[00:19:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: My only other thought, and I know you're asking us how to move on here, but I feel like we would be letting you down if we didn't talk about this, I would try to understand what drew you to this relationship. What made you stick around for so long? This pattern you described of dropping everything to do something for another person, even when they're exhibiting really dysfunctional, crazy behavior. I know, you know this now, but it was obviously a huge mistake to keep seeing this woman after she started exhibiting that toxic, violent behavior that ultimately led you to have a gun in your face before you knocked it away. That's the piece of the story that you have to own. You don't deserve any of the things that happened to you, but to be fair, you did play a role in inviting them into your life. And that's part of your healing too, figuring out why you chose this woman, why you stuck with her because turning this awful chapter into a new career, that is amazing. But if you don't avoid people like this in the future, you're going to miss out on the most important lesson here and possibly recreate another situation like this down the road.
[00:20:37] Jordan Harbinger: That's a really good point, Gabe. He needs to do the forensics here, probably with his therapist, as we mentioned, and figure out how he participated in that toxic dynamic. And what in his past might have led him to such a dysfunctional relationship, absolutely.
[00:20:51] Also Corbin highly recommends a book called Punishment Without Trial by Carissa Byrne Hessick. We'll link it in the show notes. Everything the system did to you, it's apparently well documented across thousands of cases in this book. So give it a read. It could help you better understand the system and what happened to you. And again, we'll link to that in the show notes.
[00:21:10] Man, I'm so sorry. This happened to you. It's insane, really there's no other word for it. This whole experience, though, has clearly opened up a ton of growth for you. So there's a major upside here and you're approaching this very dark chapter with exactly the right mindset, in my opinion. So keep learning, keep processing, keep chasing those great goals of yours, man. And I know it'll lead you to a good place. We're rooting for you.
[00:21:34] You know, who else belongs in an insane asylum? The crazy deals you're about to get on, the products and services that support this show.
[00:21:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: Nice.
[00:21:43] Jordan Harbinger: We'll be right back.
[00:21:46] This episode is sponsored in part by Better Help online therapy. Look, you're going through a rough time. That's all of us at some point in our lives. If there are things weighing on you so heavily that it's affecting your work, your relationships, please prioritize your mental health. I see some of the DMs I get from you guys on Instagram or on Twitter, and some of you are going through it right now. I always recommend therapy. Connecting with a licensed professional therapist, somebody that doesn't know you, somebody that's not your friend that has helped me in the past. Sometimes we just need to talk to somebody without concern for judgment and Better Help can bring out the better you. See what I did there? And Better Help is the best thing to happen to mental health, because you can do it on your own time, in your own space, video, phone, chat sessions. You don't have to drive. You don't have to park. Plus it's more affordable than in-person therapy. You can get matched with a therapist in under 48 hours in any time zone in the world. Better Help wants to make sure you find a therapist that works for you. So you can always switch therapists at no additional charge.
[00:22:42] Jen Harbinger: And our listeners get 10 percent off your first month at betterhelp.com/jordan. That's better-H-E-L-P.com/jordan.
[00:22:50] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by Stitch Fix. I haven't shopped for my own clothes in a while, because that is just not my thing. I'd rather have a professional help me look good. If you're not into endless browsing or you just don't have time to shop, Stitch Fix has you covered with fresh picks, curated for your taste and your size. They'll find what suits your body on occasion, whether you want to look refined for work or whether you're looking for casual basics, Stitch Fix can help you elevate your look. Just schedule a fix and a style expert will send you five pieces that fit your style, size, and price range. Keep what you like, return the rest for free. Or if you like to shop but you don't want to endlessly browse, try Stitch Fix freestyle, where you can pick pieces that match your vibe and your life. To get started, take a style quiz so Stitch Fix can learn your preferences.
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[00:24:08] Now back to Feedback Friday.
[00:24:12] All right, what's next?
[00:24:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. For 15 years, I had a dream career as a flight paramedic and emergency medicine practitioner, but along the way, I developed an addiction to opiates. I was stealing fentanyl and morphine from both of my workplaces, and I was eventually discovered and terminated. I lost my job, my hobby, my social network, my license, and my identity. And I've been floundering ever since. During that time, I was charged with multiple felonies after I was caught forging prescriptions, before I was formally charged, I chose to do an intensive outpatient program followed by weekly aftercare meetings. I also got myself on methadone, which required weekly counseling sessions at their clinic. It took me roughly a year to taper down and get off the methadone, but it really helped. I was also required to attend weekly group therapy as part of my plea agreement. I've been sober for a little over a year now, mostly on my own. I don't like NA or AA, mostly because of the culty vibe and the underwhelming evidence regarding their efficacy. I know I should be doing therapy and I really don't know why I haven't gotten back into it yet. I actually really enjoyed the court-ordered sessions. I was in a general addiction group and a men's trauma group since I was diagnosed with PTSD after a suicide attempt back when I was still a paramedic. Now, I'm back to square one and I have no idea what kind of work to look for that will give me the same feeling of satisfaction. I find myself drawn to public service-type jobs, but I'm either not qualified or would not be considered due to my criminal record. I've tried a handful of other jobs, but none of them have been remotely as fulfilling as being a paramedic. The closest thing I found was working at an emergency veterinary practice, but having such easy access to opioid medications proved to be too much of a temptation, and I began using again. So what can I do? Will I be stuck in jobs that I simply don't care about forever? Signed, Hitting A Ceiling on My Quest for Meaning.
[00:26:08] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man, I am really sorry to hear of all this. You've been through a lot, man. You know, opiate addictions, as you know are horrific. They're incredibly hard to kick. It's so easy to relapse as you've experienced. I'm also very sorry that you lost your dream job and you've been wandering since then. I really feel for you there. It's not easy. So look, I know you're asking for advice on how to find a meaningful job, but before we talk about that, I got to say, I'm a little concerned about you, man. I'm thrilled. You've been sober for over a year. That's a tremendous accomplishment. That takes a ton of strength without working a program or going to therapy, but your sobriety, how you're taking care of yourself — it just doesn't sound to me like you're doing everything you could be doing right now. You've been diagnosed with PTSD. You attempted suicide even when you had your dream job. You've relapsed at least once since everything went down. You are carrying around some very intense stuff here, man. I was also surprised when you said that you got a lot out of that court-ordered therapy, but you're just not in therapy now.
[00:27:17] If I were in your shoes, that would be priority number one, taking care of your mental health, figuring out the roots of your addiction, processing all the incredibly difficult things you've been through. And look, not to be super hard on you, but you know, that's part of my job, you know, it's all out of love and it's not just the COVID talking — when you say, "I don't know why I haven't gotten back into therapy," I hear some avoidance there and also a little bit of self-neglect, maybe even self-abandonment, because here's something that you know has helped you in the past. Something that would allow you to understand your addiction and work through the larger career question. And you're just not doing it. So why is that? What's stopping you here?
[00:28:02] The reason I'm digging into this so hard is that this whole, "Uh, I don't want to do AA. It's culty. I'm not going to go to therapy. I don't know why," that thing, I think those might be symptoms of a larger mindset in a way to possibly avoid this challenging work. I know you wanted advice on how to find a meaningful job, but the truth is you need to be healthy and stable enough to find a meaningful job and keep it. In a way, you're asking the wrong question here, or at least putting the cart before the horse.
[00:28:34] And part of me wonders if this search for a fulfilling job, which is great, of course, you want a fulfilling job, I totally get that, but part of me wonders if fixating on finding an amazing job is yet another way to avoid doing this more important foundational work. So that's my advice. Get healthy first, reengage with treatment, find the community you need to stay sober, stay connected, whatever that looks like. And then yes, start looking for a job that really lights you up. You can do this at the same time. I'm not saying you have to put your entire life on hold while you go to therapy, but I would prioritize the self-care for sure. And if you do that, I have a feeling that the career stuff it's just going to make a lot more sense to you. Who knows? That meaningful job you want, it might even be in the addiction space or the mental health world. God knows we need more people in that world who are experienced to know what they're doing. It might even involve helping people who have gone through what you have gone through but you wouldn't know that unless you really engage with that process.
[00:29:39] So that is my hope for you, man. I am truly impressed by how far you've come on your own, but you will go so much further with the right support and I hope you find it, man. Sending you good thoughts. I know you can do this.
[00:29:51] By the way everyone, you can reach us at email@example.com. Please keep your emails concise. Try to use a descriptive subject line. That makes our job a whole lot easier. If there's something you're going through, any big decision you are wrestling with, or you want a new perspective on some stuff like life, love, work. What to do if your friend is dating a manipulative scam artist? Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up firstname.lastname@example.org. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous.
[00:30:20] All right, what's next?
[00:30:21] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi Jordan and Gabe. My mother-in-law is a hardworking single mom who paid off her house while also supporting three kids. She inherited her mother's house after she died and decided to live there after her kids grew up and moved out. Five years ago, her nephew fell on hard times. So she graciously let him live in her old house. He's remained in the home since then, rent-free. He didn't even pay the utilities for the first few years, despite working full time and being completely capable of paying rent. My mother-in-law has quite a few health problems and she's now getting close to retirement. And this house is her only nest egg. My husband and I have suggested many times that she kick this nephew out, but she just shrugs it off even though she complains about it often. My husband and I are the ones who will likely be caring for her in her old age. And I find myself caught between allowing her to make her own mistakes and protecting my family from financial problems if she's not able to take care of herself and her mounting medical bills. Part of me wants to try and appeal directly to the nephew, but I'm afraid of stirring up family drama. My husband also doesn't like confrontation. Do I keep my mouth shut and hope it all works out in the end? Or do I risk the drama and take it directly to the nephew? Signed, Back Off in Scoff or Meddle in Subtle,
[00:31:36] Jordan Harbinger: Ugh, Gabe, this letter actually pisses me off.
[00:31:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.
[00:31:40] Jordan Harbinger: I'm legit angry and kind of grossed out that this nephew is taking advantage of this woman's mother-in-law in such a flagrant way. Maybe it's because I'm close to my mother-in-law as well. But look, the guy has a full-time job. He can afford rent. He didn't even cough up like 80 bucks a month for the water and electricity for years. He's just a freeloading little sh*t riding this situation as long as it lasts, in my opinion. And look to be fair, maybe he just doesn't appreciate his aunt's financial situation, but still this guy hasn't made on easy street and he isn't even checking in with the family like, "Hey, is it okay that I'm here? Am I putting you guys?" Just basic frigging etiquette, just a leech, man. This guy really grinds my gears, but what really gets me worked up is that these mounting medical bills, the house not generating any value, they are going to affect the woman writing in and her husband. They're the ones who are going to be left holding the bag.
[00:32:37] So I totally understand why she's worried. If she doesn't get out in front of this, this could become a major liability. Either this nephew needs to start paying rent or they need to make a move with the house. So here's what I would do. I'm going to be unusually prescriptive here. First, I would get together with your husband, share your concerns. Get on the same page about how to handle the nephew. This is his mom, it's his family, so he should probably lead here, but you can definitely support.
[00:33:08] Then I would sit down with his mom maybe together so that she hears this from two people. It's harder to argue. It's harder for one person to cave and help her see that her nephew has been, frankly, just taking advantage of her generosity for years. That she is absolutely right to be annoyed about it. And that you're all now in a position where you need the house to generate some income, either rental income or proceeds from a sale. And if you don't, you will not be able to cover her expenses, her medical bills, and this could potentially tank you guys or seriously compromise her quality of life. You need to make her realize just how dire this is.
[00:33:51] Then help your husband come up with a plan for talking to his cousin. I think the message is basically, "Look, we're family. I'm very happy my mom could help you get through a tough time, but circumstances have changed. We need you to start paying rent, or we're going to have to ask you to move out in the next month," end a story or next couple months, whatever. I'm getting the sense that your mother-in-law, she's not going to want to be the bad guy here. And it's possible that her nephew will just brush her off. Or I'm not saying he is going to do this, but he might be the kind of guy who would manipulate her into letting him stay. So your husband is probably going to have to lead here after all this is his family. He's the one responsible for caring for his mom. These houses will be his and your assets one day, so it's appropriate.
[00:34:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I agree completely. But honestly, I think the biggest hurdle here for these two will be getting over their fear of conflict. I'm getting the sense that this is kind of a thing in their family, right? The mother-in-law, she constantly complains about this nephew, but she shrugs it off when they tell her to kick him out. Her son doesn't like confrontation. The woman writing in actually said that she's afraid of stirring up family drama. I mean, even her question, "Do I keep my mouth shut and hope it all works out in the end? Or do I risk the drama and take it directly to the nephew?" that says a lot about how this family deals with problems, but these are exactly the kinds of problems that get created when you avoid difficult conversations.
[00:35:13] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, absolutely. And I think the nephew knows that on some level, he's able to stick around rent-free because he understands that these people are — I'll just say it like it is — too chicken to call him out, right? They're conflict avoidant.
[00:35:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. And now look at what's happening. It's putting them at real financial risk because everybody's walking on eggshells. So I think this is a really important step for them, not just to deal with this nephew, but to learn how to assert their needs and stand up to a personality like this. So do you keep your mouth shut, hope it all works out in the end? Definitely not. Things will work out in the end if you guys think ahead, stand up for your mother-in-law, protect yourselves before this becomes a disaster, but you guys can't just bank on the universe, magically having your back in this situation. I think that's reckless. Do you risk the drama and take it directly to the nephew? Yes, absolutely. I'm with Jordan and this isn't causing drama. It's taking care of your family, taking care of yourself, and also making your nephew respect your very legitimate needs. Simple as that.
[00:36:11] Jordan Harbinger: Agreed completely. This nephew, he's got to start acting right or find his own place. And you guys need to start taking real steps to managing your assets and making sure your mother-in-law has the resources she needs as she gets older. So get to talking, lean into the healthy conflict here. That's your job right now. We're sending you, your husband, and his mom, good thoughts.
[00:36:35] By the way, Gabe, this just occurred to me. If they have the nephew pay rent, you all should collect the rent because if it goes to your husband's mom, nephew might go like, "Oh, I don't have it right now. Can I get you later?" And then just never pays. And then mom is again like, "Well, I feel weird asking," and then homeboy just doesn't pay for three to six months.
[00:36:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.
[00:36:54] Jordan Harbinger: But if you collect the rent, you can say, "Oh, hey, I didn't get the rent," and he's got to pay you. And he's got to explain to you why he can't pay and you will know early if he's pulling some stuff. Because he could still say, "Oh, Auntie Susan said, I don't have to pay this month," and then you immediately nip it in the bud. Talk with her, straighten it out, talk with him and say, "Pay the rent or GTFO," right? But if you are having her do it, there's a good chance she goes months and maybe just doesn't say that he hasn't paid or lies about it. If she's really kind of a sucker and conflict avoidant, this could go south, even if he agrees to pay rent. So make sure you are the ones getting the checks and cashing them.
[00:37:35] But you know who's living rent-free in my head right now? The sponsors that support this show. We'll be right back.
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[00:40:04] And now back to Feedback Friday.
[00:40:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey Jordan and Gabe. My husband and I are in our early 30s. We've been together for six years and we've been married for one. I've always been very upfront about wanting to have kids soon after marriage. He never objected. The only disagreement was that he wanted two kids while I only wanted one. Late last year, I bought us a three-bedroom home. I say I, because he didn't have a good credit score. So everything is in my name. A couple of months later, I brought up trying for a baby and he said, no, because we're renting out our spare rooms to pay our mortgage. I admit I enjoy having no mortgage. So I told him we could wait until after a big vacation we're taking this year. That's when he told me that he wants to focus on his mental health, go to therapy, and wait two years until we start trying. I cannot fathom not being pregnant for that much longer. I took a fertility test last month and everything was normal for my age, but I can't shake the feeling that I need to move quickly. I tried to compromise by telling him we could wait until late this year, but he won't budge. I now believe he doesn't ever want kids. And the whole two years thing is just a stalling tactic. I've tried throwing myself into work as a distraction, but I find my work is suffering because I'm sad the entire day. I've threatened divorce and even gave him papers, which he ripped up. To make things worse, I recently went through his laptop and saw messages with one of his coworkers. They weren't sexually explicit, but definitely flirty. I ended up speaking with her. She's also married and claimed she was just giving him relationship advice. He ended the friendship and wants to get marriage counseling. I feel bad that I'm being obsessive and bringing this up every day, which causes him stress but I'm worried we don't have much time to conceive. If I let him have his way and we wait, I feel I'll resent him, but it would also take me years to get a divorce and find someone new. I feel my best option at this point is going to a fertility clinic and using a donor, whether my husband likes it or not. How can I have a baby as soon as possible without ruining my relationship? Signed, Conceiving Without Grieving, Leaving, or Further Grieving.
[00:42:08] Jordan Harbinger: Oh boy, there's a lot going on in this letter, Gabe.
[00:42:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh yeah.
[00:42:13] Jordan Harbinger: Ugh, I'm sorry that you've run into all these challenges with your husband. You obviously want to start a family very soon. He said he was on the same page, but now he's kicking that can down the road, signaling in all sorts of ways that he isn't as committed to the relationship as you are. And I'm sure that's very confusing and, yeah, painful. But here's the thing you're asking how you can have a baby as soon as possible without ruining your relationship, but you're ignoring the much more important issue here, which is your marriage is in trouble. Your husband clearly doesn't want to get pregnant as quickly as you do. If he wants to get pregnant at all, you seem pretty convinced that he doesn't. You've served him with papers. You clearly think it's over although weirdly he's resisting that too. And if that weren't enough, you caught him maybe/probably cheating with one of his coworkers, emotionally at the very least.
[00:43:07] So I got to ask. Why do you want to have children with this guy?
[00:43:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.
[00:43:12] Jordan Harbinger: I'm genuinely confused. You know, I know you feel that time isn't on your side. Okay. I get that. But I'm concerned about what kind of father this guy is going to be, whether you'd be able to raise a happy family when you guys are in such different places. How would that even work? Also, you feel your best option at this point is going to a fertility clinic and using a donor, whether your husband likes it or not.
[00:43:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oomph.
[00:43:37] Jordan Harbinger: I mean, I'm not sure how serious you are about that, but again, this is crazy.
[00:43:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.
[00:43:44] Jordan Harbinger: Instead of addressing the issues with your husband and trying to figure out if he's the right partner for you, you're considering letting the marriage continue and just getting pregnant on your own. So he doesn't have any choice. I'm not saying using a sperm donor is a bad idea. All right. Okay. Fine.
[00:43:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: Sure.
[00:44:00] Jordan Harbinger: It's certainly an option if you want to have a child on your own.
[00:44:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.
[00:44:02] Jordan Harbinger: But I just don't understand why you would go that route and stay together with somebody that is all kinds of messy. So, yeah, you guys have some real work to do. I would definitely go to couples therapy if you want to work on this. I would start having some very real, very important conversations. I'm guessing your husband has some conflicts about having children or at least having children with you. He also has some communication issues to work on, the infidelity piece, definitely, possibly some financial stuff. There's just so much that you guys are not saying to each other, and there's a lot of resentment and hurt built up.
[00:44:42] And I think you guys need to have some honest conversations about what you guys truly want, but look, if you know, for sure that it's over and you don't want to waste any more time, then you can get a divorce. I'm not super familiar with the laws, but if your spouse refuses to sign the papers, at a certain point, you can get a default divorce or an uncontested divorce and just move on. It might take some time and money, but it is definitely doable.
[00:45:09] So that's my take, like the guy a couple of questions ago, you're kind of asking the wrong question here. And you're fast tracking the baby thing when there's this other huge elephant in the room. I know you want to be a mom, but I also think you want to be a good mom. And I don't know how you can be a good parent if you bring a child into a house like this, where mom and dad are angry at each other and they're not talking and dad is flirting with his coworker and mom is hanging on to all this resentment, and it's not even clear why they're still together. So I would focus on that first. And I hope you find a way forward here, whatever you decide. Good luck.
[00:45:47] All right. Next up.
[00:45:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey Jordan and Gabe. My best friend and I are women in our late 20s, and we've been best friends for the past 10 years. We've talked every day for the past seven years and I love her dearly. When we first met, we were both struggling with the same issues, anxiety, depression, and our own flavor of eating disorder. We'd also had pretty negative experiences with men although hers was more extreme than mine. Overall, we had very similar mindsets, negative and always expecting the worst. Since then though, we've matured a lot. We both went to therapy and recovered from our eating disorders. I think our past selves would be proud of us. The thing is our trajectories have diverged for the past couple of years. My best friend seems stuck. She's had a lot of awful things happen lately, especially health-related issues. We're both high-performance athletes and it's been driving her crazy to not be able to reach her full potential. She's also not where she wanted to be at this stage in her life. I feel for her. I really do but with each new issue, I find it hard to be there for her. I try to be optimistic and she seems to hate that she often says things like, "What have I done to deserve this?" I tell her that she's done nothing and that she doesn't deserve this, but she seems to get stuck in a loop. I don't think she's doing anything to bring her issues upon herself, but I can't see how being pessimistic and abdicating all responsibility are helping her. I've suggested that she revisit therapy, but she doesn't want to, saying she's doing better than she ever has and has, quote, "nothing to work on." Part of me thinks that on some level, she's choosing to be miserable. The thing is I recognize that I've been the lucky one lately. I have a wonderful partner and he's helped me see the world in a more positive light. I've tried to help my best friend see things the way he does but it hasn't worked. I also have a job I love and I'm in good health. I like to think that I could handle adversity better than my best friend currently is, but if our roles were reversed, maybe I wouldn't. How can I help my friend? And if I can't help her, how do I protect my mood from her mood without just dropping her completely? Signed, A Wavering Friend Determined to Be There Till the End.
[00:47:54] Jordan Harbinger: Well, first of all, congratulations on all of this growth that you've done over the past 10 years. That is — it's incredible. To go from wrestling with depression and anxiety and an eating disorder to finding a great partner, seeing the world in a friendlier way — that is huge. It's huge. I'm sorry that your friend hasn't made as much progress, although it sounds like she's come a long way too, but yeah, you should be really proud of yourself.
[00:48:18] This is really hard. What you're talking about here. It's one of the very tricky things about maintaining a friendship as you evolve. You met this woman when you guys were very young. You bonded over your shared challenges, your similar worldview. You identified with each other because you were both in a similar place, but then you started to grow, partly through your relationship with your partner. And now the friendship is faltering a little bit. So, first of all, let me just say, this happens all the time in friendships, especially ones you make when you're 18, 19 early 20s. I know how sad that is. I've been there several times, myself. I'm sure, Gabe, you probably have too.
[00:48:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.
[00:48:57] Jordan Harbinger: And it can be very sad. I also hear some guilt in your letter. Your friend is struggling, you're kind of flourishing, maybe you feel responsible for her and a little bad on some level that you're doing well. And that's really tough. I have to say, though, I'm touched by how much you still care about your friend. You're not just like, "I have a great boyfriend and an amazing job and perfect health. Sorry. You're spinning out. Bye-ee." You know, the fact that you know you might struggle just as much as she is if the situation were reversed, that says so much about you, your empathy, your humility. I'm sure that's what makes you such a good friend.
[00:49:33] But here's the challenge, your friend, she is making things more difficult. She is getting in her own way. And I have a lot of compassion for her because she's been through some really heavy stuff in her life. And she might not have as many inner resources as you do, but if she resists your attempts to help her look at things in a new way if she's sort of stuck in this victim mentality, if she refuses to go to therapy, then she isn't doing everything she can to get better. And that might mean that she isn't willing or ready to grow the way that you have.
[00:50:08] So my first piece of advice is maybe you can be a little more direct in helping her see how she's getting in her own way. Maybe you say something like, "Listen, we've talked a lot about what you're going through and I really feel for you. I have been there, you know that but I also have to say as your best friend, I sometimes leave our conversations feeling like I wasn't really able to help you. I notice that it can be tough for you to consider a new way of looking at things or you dismiss an idea right off the bat. And that's hard. It's hard for me because I'm left feeling like I can't really help. And it's hard for you because then you're not getting any new solutions. But tell me, is that your experience? What's it like for you when I suggest you give therapy another try or look for a silver lining? Is it annoying? Is it hurtful? Do you think I sound like a know-it-all? Like, tell me how can I be most helpful," that kind of thing.
[00:51:01] Get her to open up. See if you can access the stuff underneath the resistance. Now she might not be willing to go there with you. She might shut you down or dismiss you like she tends to do, but even if she does that, that's a great opportunity for you to go, "Okay, but wait a second, that thing I was just describing where you kind of shut stuff down before we can explore it. I think that's happening right now. Do you see what I mean?" And maybe if you point that out in the moment it's happening, she won't be able to dismiss it. That's a very powerful intervention.
[00:51:35] And then, you can gently nudge her toward a more helpful way of taking care of herself. But if she keeps doing what she's doing, then at some point you just have to consider what role you will play in her life and also how to not let your friend infect your mood as you put it. And actually, I think that's the most important thing you can do, especially if you guys stay close. We talk so much on the show about boundaries. I'm not going to bang on about that, but that is key, finding some healthy, clear boundaries so that your friend doesn't bring you down when you're there for her.
[00:52:12] And, you know, I wonder if this special bond you guys have if maybe that friendship was always built on some, eh, flimsy boundaries. I get the sense that you guys always took each other's stuff on as your own, your identities were very closely linked, almost entwined. And part of the reason your paths are diverging is that you've started to build an identity of your own, not just as a person with a partner and a job and good health, but a person who better understands what's her stuff and what's someone else's stuff. That's very healthy, but it can also be very destabilizing to a friend who's come to rely on you to take care of her in this way. And that might be contributing to her bleak outlook right now. You haven't done anything wrong. I'm just appreciating what this might be like for her, but that's just one more reason that she should absolutely be in therapy right now.
[00:53:04] So look, it is possible that this friendship won't survive. I know you're determined not to abandon her, and I'm definitely not saying you should, but at a certain point, it does become hard to keep a friend who doesn't share your commitment to getting better. And I say that from personal experience, I have been there. So be honest with your friend. Keep meeting her with compassion, but also resist the urge to enable somebody just because you have a long history. It's possible that you won't be as close as you once were, or that you'll have to pull back a little so that she can step up. And that isn't cruelty, that isn't abandonment. That's being a good friend and still taking care of yourself.
[00:53:44] Hope you all enjoyed that. I want to thank everyone who wrote in this week. Everybody who listened to the show as well. Thank you so much. Go back and check out Jane McGonigal and Shaq if you haven't yet.
[00:53:54] If you want to know how I managed to book all the great people that you hear on the show and manage my relationships using systems, software, and tiny habits, that's all in our Six-Minute Networking course. And that course is free over on the Thinkific platform, that's all at jordanharbinger.com/course. I'm teaching you how to dig the well before you get thirsty because you want to build those relationships before you need them. And the drills take just a few minutes a day. It's all free. I don't need your credit card number, none of that. All at jordanharbinger.com/course.
[00:54:21] A link to the show notes for the episode can be found at jordanharbinger.com. Transcripts are in the show notes. I'm at @JordanHarbinger on both Twitter and Instagram, or just hit me on LinkedIn. You can find Gabe on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi or on Instagram at @GabrielMizrahi.
[00:54:36] This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, Josh Ballard, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions, they're our own. And I'm a lawyer but I'm not your lawyer. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show, ditto Corbin Payne. Remember, we rise by lifting others so share the show with those you love. And if you found this episode useful, please share it with somebody else who can use the advice that we gave here today. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show, so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time.
[00:55:12] We've got a preview trailer of our interview with Navy SEAL and veteran Jocko Willink like, you've never heard him before. So stay tuned for that after the close of the show.
[00:55:21] Jocko Willink: Leadership is the most important on the battlefield. Every characteristic that you can have for a leader can be taken to an extreme, even the most important characteristic that I talk about all the time, which is humility. You've got to be humble as a leader. You've got to always look, "Okay, how can I improve? Why I need to listen to other people?" Well, as a leader, you can actually be too humble where you don't stand up when somebody's telling you to do something that you don't think is right, but you're like, "Hey, I'm humble. So I'm going to do it anyways." Well, if you don't think it's right, you actually shouldn't do it. Every positive characteristic can be taken to the extreme that it becomes a negative. And that is why as a leader, you have to be balanced.
[00:55:57] Jordan Harbinger: Be humble or get humbled is a term that I love. Can you tell us what this means?
[00:56:02] Jocko Willink: The nature of the world is if you're not humble, you are going to get humbled. So that's a good attitude to have, and it's a good attitude to always think, you know, "I need to stay humble," but — and this is the dichotomy — this doesn't mean that you're completely passive and there are times as humble as you should be, there are times when you need to stand up and say no.
[00:56:27] You know, Leif and I joke about it. Sometimes the most we'd get to sleep was when we were in the field. There's a funny picture of myself and Dave Burke on a rooftop. It probably looks like it's about 11 o'clock in the morning. And we're both sitting there. We're both asleep. We're both sitting there—
[00:56:40] Jordan Harbinger: At 110 degrees?
[00:56:40] Jocko Willink: Yeah. It's 110 degrees and we're both asleep. And clearly, this was the first time we had to rest in 24 or 48 hours. And we learn to sleep anywhere on concrete and floors and stairwells and whatever else.
[00:56:53] Jordan Harbinger: For more with Jocko, including why we should stop being the easy button for those we manage and lead, and the concept of leadership capital, how to build it, when to use it, and when not to use it, check out episode 93 right here on The Jordan Harbinger Show.
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