962: Timeshares | Skeptical Sunday

962: Timeshares | Skeptical Sunday

[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: This episode of The Jordan Harbinger Show is brought to you by Nissan. Nissan SUVs have the capabilities to take your adventure to the next level. Learn more at nissanusa.com.

[00:00:12] Welcome to Skeptical Sunday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. Today, I'm here with Skeptical Sunday Co-host, Kevin Rapp. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people, and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. And during the week, we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks — from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, performers. On Sundays though, we got Skeptical Sunday where a rotating guest co-host and I break down a topic you may have never thought about. And debunk common misconceptions about that topic such as — why tipping makes no sense, circumcision, sovereign citizens, e-commerce scams, the lottery, toothpaste, crystal-healing diet pills, and more.

[00:00:55] If you're new to the show or you want to tell your friends about the show, I suggest our episode Starter Packs. These are collections of our favorite episodes on persuasion, negotiation, psychology, disinformation, cyber warfare, crime, cults, and more, that'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit jordanharbinger.com/start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started.

[00:01:15] Today, timeshares, they're a huge scam. Everybody knows it. Therefore, nobody buys them, right? But wait, hold on. Timeshares are apparently a $10.5 billion industry. That's more than the 10.3 billion in revenue for Major League Baseball. There are more than 1500 timeshare resorts making up around 200,000 units in the US and roughly 10 million US households that own one or more types of timeshare product. Imagine owning more than one. So is everybody just getting legally ripped off and are we just okay with that? Is this multi-billion dollar industry all actually a scam or is there something deeper going on? Kevin Rapp spent some time relaxing on a weather deck chair, six blocks from the beach in Sarasota, Florida, investigating timeshares and is here to tell you if you and Aunt Edna are really getting a deal.

[00:02:00] Kevin Rapp: Hey, Jordan. So, I got a question for you here. Have you ever dreamt of having a vacation home in a stunning location without the hassle of year-round maintenance and expenses?

[00:02:10] Jordan Harbinger: I mean, when you say it like that, yes, of course. Who hasn't dreamed of something like that? But I own a home and I know it requires way more work and expense than you're letting on.

[00:02:18] Kevin Rapp: Well, let's just suspend our disbelief for a minute, right? And like, imagine with me for a moment — having a week or more each year in a luxury resort. Just fully furnished with all the amenities you could wish for. Gym, pickleball court, of lightly urinated in pool. How does that sound?

[00:02:35] Jordan Harbinger: I mean, it depends on the urine levels but appealing. Tell me more.

[00:02:39] Kevin Rapp: Okay. Well, so, you sound like someone who would love a timeshare. You could actually own a slice of paradise without the worries of full-home ownership.

[00:02:47] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Unfortunately, one of my issues is that while I was born on a Tuesday, it wasn't last Tuesday, so I know timeshares are a big ripoff.

[00:02:57] Kevin Rapp: Okay, so we're getting ahead of ourselves. Maybe let's just kind of take a beat. Let's just define for the audience kind of what is a timeshare, right?

[00:03:03] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. What do we mean when we say timeshares? I'm thinking condo in Florida. I know it sort of varies. I don't know the deets.

[00:03:08] Kevin Rapp: Yeah, definitely. So a timeshare is basically like owning a vacation, right? So you're making this commitment to paying for annual trips at a same resort for the rest of your life. You know, there's obviously like kind of these different ways to own a vacation.

[00:03:22] Jordan Harbinger: Oh yeah. Like some people have the same week, everywhere, every year, and others go to a bunch of different places depending on what kind of thing they invested in, right?

[00:03:30] Kevin Rapp: Yeah, yeah, Exactly. So like, they're kind of like three models, right? So there's the fixed term, there's floating term, and there's point based. So I'll start with the fixed term because it's kinda like the most straightforward. Imagine a vacation home in a desirable place like the Ozarks, and people take turns using the house for their vacations. Like one family gets a certain week. Uses that week to launder money for a drug cartel. And then when their week's over, another family takes over. So yeah, you're basically buying the right to exclusively use a property for a specific week or multiple weeks each year. In a same place, every year on the same weeks. Just super simple.

[00:04:05] Jordan Harbinger: So this is one I grew up with where your friends would go to their parents' timeshares and like Hilton Head, South Carolina. And afterwards, you had to pretend like you knew what that was and/or actually cared even a tiny bit. And I went once with my friends and I was like, this place — You know, when you're 14, you don't golf. Like this is the most overrated, boring place in America. There's nothing going on.

[00:04:26] Kevin Rapp: Exactly. And you know, people weirdly kinda like that model even though, you know, say you're at Hilton Head, South Carolina or wherever. It's just — it's a set routine, right? I do the exact same thing every year. It's even like — I might think of it as my family's home. And there are other families who are doing this at the same time, right? You're sort of building a community with other people. You have these like quote-unquote, "Neighbors"

[00:04:48] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that makes sense. But it's got to be tough to sign yourself up for a single week, for the rest of your life. I can imagine you're getting mad at your niece for getting married during your single week of vacation, or you have to have a medical procedure and it's like, "Ooh, should I punt on that? That's my week in Fort Lauderdale." And suddenly, you just can't cash in that year and/or get a prostate surgery.

[00:05:09] Kevin Rapp: Yeah, and I think that's exactly right. And this is one of the other arrangements that kind of comes up is the floating timeshare. Now, imagine that kind of same vacation home in the Ozarks, and at the beginning of each year, all of the other families who own it, you guys figure out together who gets which of these weeks.

[00:05:24] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that all sounds good in theory, you get flexibility, but I'm going to imagine that everybody wants that place for Christmas or Thanksgiving or New Year or just during the best weather period.

[00:05:36] So unless you get lucky, you end up with some non-desirable week. Like you bought the timeshare thinking, "All right, fun in the sun." But now you're like nips deep in hurricane season in the Florida Keys. No thanks.

[00:05:46] Kevin Rapp: Yeah, right. So, you know, everybody wants the exact same weeks, right? That you absolutely end up with this availability problem. And that's kind of where this last form of ownership comes in. You have this points-based ownership. It's like you need more homes to fit the demand, right? So imagine rather than just owning a week in a single house, you owned a week but you could do it in one of a whole like smorgasbord of vacation homes in that area or even like around the world.

[00:06:10] Jordan Harbinger: Awesome. Variety. Take me to Aruba or Des Moines, Iowa in the middle of winter.

[00:06:16] Kevin Rapp: Yeah, exactly. And the issue with different locations, it's kind of clear immediately, right? So like one house, it's not equal to another. And even the experience at one house might be completely different than another. Like, you remember when you would go over your friend's houses when you were a kid. When you went to like, Mike's house. His mom would serve a three-course dinner and you'd watch the director's cut of the Last Samurai and you'd go to sleep at 10. But then, when you'd go to like Frank's house, you drank Colt 45's in the basement, even though, you know, you were only like 13 years old. You're like pretty sure it gave you some mild brain damage, which is like why you, maybe you struggle in law school and you ended up becoming a podcaster.

[00:06:56] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, exactly.

[00:06:57] Kevin Rapp: Totally. Different experiences.

[00:06:58] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I follow along, all too well. Frank's house really did get quite wild. Guy had a hell of an illegal fireworks collection though. All right, so at timeshares, they set up a point system so that they can price all the properties differently. Is that kind of how that goes?

[00:07:12] Kevin Rapp: Yeah, exactly. And like highly desirable places get these high scores. It'll be like, you know, a thousand points for The Bahamas, a hundred points for Des Moines, and 10 points for Gryffindor.

[00:07:23] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Okay. Makes sense. Nerd alert. So now that we are aligned on the types of timeshares and all that jazz, but one thing I'm not getting at all is why would people choose to do this instead of just going on vacation wherever they want, whenever they want? Why sign up for this when like hotels exist? That's what I don't get.

[00:07:43] Kevin Rapp: So, yeah. So I'm going to have to give you the math here that the timeshare developers would give you to answer that question.

[00:07:48] Jordan Harbinger: Okay.

[00:07:48] Kevin Rapp: So mind with me for a minute here while I take you into my timeshare presentation. But you know, before I do, I kind of want to call something out here.

[00:07:54] Jordan Harbinger: Do I get free tickets to a mid-range amusement park for my kids?

[00:07:58] Kevin Rapp: You know, we'll definitely look into that. I think I'll have to check with my manager in the back here. But before I do, I just want to kind of call something out here. I'm going to cite a lot of statistics today. There's kind of no getting around it. It's sort of only sources for data on timeshares. It's either timeshare developers or kind of companies that are selling services to get you out of a timeshare.

[00:08:19] Jordan Harbinger: Okay, that makes sense.

[00:08:20] Kevin Rapp: They're biased sources. It's like asking for statistics about lung cancer from like Marlboro or the lawyers paid to sue Marlboro. So, you know, there's just an agenda.

[00:08:31] Jordan Harbinger: So basically you're saying, "Don't blame me if the news is fake. We did the best we could in this episode." And I get that. That's every Skeptical Sunday, by the way. But, yeah.

[00:08:39] Kevin Rapp: Exactly. And just like speaking of fake, let's just kind of get back to the timeshare math.

[00:08:44] Jordan Harbinger: Okay.

[00:08:45] Kevin Rapp: So let's say you vacation like two weeks a year and your family spends $300 a night for a hotel. So that's going to end up costing around like $4,200 annually, on hotels. Let's assume you'll spend the next 25 years vacationing and hotel prices increase 3 percent each year. So that's actually ends up being around $153,000 over the next 25 years. Now that doesn't really feel that good, does it, Jordan?

[00:09:11] Jordan Harbinger: No. It sounds like I need to vacation quite a bit less. I mean, I've got bills to pay.

[00:09:15] Kevin Rapp: Yeah, I mean, sure, you could definitely stop vacationing, or you could buy a timeshare.

[00:09:21] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, yeah.

[00:09:22] Kevin Rapp: Yeah. You see, according to the American Resort Development Association or ARDA —

[00:09:27] Jordan Harbinger: Official sounding.

[00:09:28] Kevin Rapp: Exactly. The average cost here of a week of timeshare is about $24,000. So let's double that. We cover the two weeks of your yearly vacation, and now you spent $48,000 and you have this for the rest of your life, right?

[00:09:42] Jordan Harbinger: Wow.

[00:09:43] Kevin Rapp: So just spent $48,000 now, plus a small annual maintenance fee, and you can vacation here for the rest of your life. That's a savings of $105,000.

[00:09:53] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. So $105,000 savings automatically seems too good to be true.

[00:09:58] Kevin Rapp: And yeah, it is too good to be true. So, okay. Because I'm going to get now into the sort of the real ugly part of timeshares and that's that they use this math that's kind of akin to paper towel math.

[00:10:09] Jordan Harbinger: What's paper towel math?

[00:10:10] Kevin Rapp: Yeah. So you know how like bounty paper towels will — they'll print like absurd claims on their products like, "Two mega rolls equals four regular rolls."

[00:10:18] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:18] Kevin Rapp: It's the same exact thing with timeshares. They'll say something like, "Buy two weeks of vacation today for the rest of your life, and it'll cut your costs by 75 percent." But you know, honestly, in reality, they're just not being upfront with you about the entire cost.

[00:10:30] Jordan Harbinger: Right. You mentioned the small maintenance fee. I'm guessing that like, what? That scales up over time, or it's not so small. I don't know.

[00:10:37] Kevin Rapp: Yeah, I mean, it doesn't even start small. They think — according to ARDA, the average maintenance fee is a thousand dollars on average.

[00:10:44] Jordan Harbinger: Woo. Okay.

[00:10:45] Kevin Rapp: And like, depending on which source you consult, these costs can actually go up like two to five percent yearly.

[00:10:51] Jordan Harbinger: Oof.

[00:10:51] Kevin Rapp: Which kind of sounds reasonable at first.

[00:10:53] Jordan Harbinger: A little, I guess. Yeah.

[00:10:54] Kevin Rapp: Yeah. But you know, we here at The Jordan Harbinger Show, we understand the power of compounding interest.

[00:11:00] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. So that's

[00:11:01] really good when it works for you, right? Your money grows like magic and you're just like, "Oh my gosh, there's twice as much as I put in it and it's only been a decade and a half." Or whatever. That's great when it works for you, but it's really bad when it works against you.

[00:11:15] Kevin Rapp: Bingo. And that's exactly right. So if you start out today and you're paying in a thousand dollars maintenance fee and they raise it by four percent every year.

[00:11:22] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:11:23] Kevin Rapp: In 25 years, now you're paying a maintenance fee of $2,700.

[00:11:26] Jordan Harbinger: Right.

[00:11:27] Kevin Rapp: And you know, this is 25 years from now, like you might not be working anymore. Like, are you ready to take on that type of recurring payment in perpetuity in the twilight years of your life? These are the types of conversations that timeshare salespeople just don't have with you, right? And that's kinda the problem.

[00:11:41] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that is bad. That could blindside you real fast, I think. And also, what if in 25 years, that part of the country is underwater? Or, a more likely, "I can't go anywhere because I am old now and I've got to schlep to this random place that doesn't have accessibility."

[00:11:59] Kevin Rapp: Yeah, a hundred percent. And honestly, I'd love to say that that's where it gets its worst, but honestly, it gets worse. Because, as you can imagine, most people don't have the $24,000 to pay for the timeshare upfront.

[00:12:11] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. Oh, no.

[00:12:12] Kevin Rapp: Yeah. So they will actually get a loan for the timeshare.

[00:12:18] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man.

[00:12:19] Kevin Rapp: From the timeshare developer. And the interest rate on that loan can range anywhere from six to 17 percent.

[00:12:27] Jordan Harbinger: Holy mackerel. Wow. 17 percent is kind of like getting a cash advance in your credit card. Maybe it's slightly better? I don't know. Maybe it's 21 percent if you do that on your side.

[00:12:37] Kevin Rapp: Sure.

[00:12:37] Jordan Harbinger: But the moral is, I don't know, because you should never do this.

[00:12:40] Kevin Rapp: A hundred percent.

[00:12:40] Jordan Harbinger: You should never be in a situation where you have to even look at these interest rates.

[00:12:43] Kevin Rapp: You should a hundred percent never take a 17 percent loan.

[00:12:46] Jordan Harbinger: Right.

[00:12:46] Kevin Rapp: Like, let's do some quick math on it, right? Like, assume you took out a $24,000 loan to cover your timeshare. Now you're going to finance that over 10 years at an interest rate of 12 percent. And that means you're going to end up paying this monthly payment of $350 for the next 10 years. And over the lifetime that loan, now you're paying $41,000 or $17,000 more than you originally anticipated.

[00:13:09] Jordan Harbinger: So it's the opposite of paper towel math, right? It's inverted. You're buying one week of timeshare, but you're paying for two. Instead of getting one — two rolls on the price of one, you're getting one week for the price of two. That's crazy.

[00:13:20] Kevin Rapp: Exactly. And you know, according to law firms who specialize in actually getting people out of timeshares —

[00:13:25] Jordan Harbinger: Of course.

[00:13:25] Kevin Rapp: Yeah. That's a total other industry we'll talk about. But they agree — agreeing to buy this $20,000 timeshare with their financing, will typically cost you $45,000.

[00:13:35] Jordan Harbinger: Oh my gosh. Yeah. So with the loan fees, you get interest in maintenance fees on the timeshare, and those are all going up. I would imagine that more than he clips is all the savings that they were claiming you were going to get from this over time.

[00:13:47] Kevin Rapp: Oh, totally. And you know, if you just quickly go back to like the example that I tried to use to sell you the timeshare in the first place, like we were saying, you would spend around $153,000 over the next 25 years on hotels. To do that same thing in a timeshare, it'd be $48,000 for the two weeks plus $2,000 a year in maintenance fees. Which increase around 4 percent each year.

[00:14:08] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:08] Kevin Rapp: And like, assuming you took out that $48,000 loan at 12 percent, now, all of a sudden, you're spending $166,000 over the next 25 years, which is, you know, 12,000 more than simply paying for hotels.

[00:14:22] Jordan Harbinger: Right. And hotels can be in any location you want. They actually have to earn your business, so they care about your experience there. The service level's higher because it's not a timeshare. And timeshares don't have that pressure to make the experience that nice. Because you, theoretically, if you're unhappy with it, it's like, "Well, sorry. You own this."

[00:14:40] Kevin Rapp: Totally. And then, again, just kind of back at the end of it, it's just you're not even getting a deal, right? And so, some of the assumptions I made for the calculations could fluctuate wildly, right? You have like — timeshare could be even more expensive. Like you could get a worse interest rate. So, yeah. I mean, this coming back to it, is just — it's the ugly truth of timeshares, right? Like many of these corporations, they're taking advantage of less financially sophisticated people, appealing to their emotions, selling them a dream of owning something. Honestly, if people were upfront with them about the long-term ownership costs, they probably realized that they couldn't afford it.

[00:15:14] Jordan Harbinger: That seems like a bad sales strategy for selling timeshares, though.

[00:15:18] You know what's better than a canned margarita? The fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

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[00:16:32] Jordan Harbinger: This episode of The Jordan Harbinger Show is brought to you by Nissan. Ever wondered what's around that next corner, or what happens when you push further? Nissan SUVs have the capabilities to take your adventure to the next level. As my listeners know, I get a lot of joy on this show talking about what's next, dreaming big, pushing yourself further. That's why I'm excited once again to partner with Nissan because Nissan celebrates adventurers everywhere. Whether that next adventure for you is a cross-country road trip or just driving yourself 10 minutes down the road to try that local rock climbing gym, Nissan is there to support you as you chase your dreams. So take a Nissan Rogue, Nissan Pathfinder, or a Nissan Armada and go find your next big adventure. With the 2024 Nissan Rogue, the class-exclusive Google built-in is your always updating assistant to call on for almost anything. No need to connect your phone as Google Assistant, Google Maps and Google Play Store are built right into the 12.3 inch HD touchscreen infotainment system of the 2024 Nissan Rogue. So thanks again to Nissan for sponsoring this episode of The Jordan Harbinger Show and for the reminder to find your next big adventure and enjoy the ride along the way. Learn more at nissanusa.com.

[00:17:32] If you're wondering how I managed to book all these great authors, thinkers, and creators every single week, it is because of my network — the circle of people that I know, like, and trust. And I'm teaching you how to build your network for free over at sixminutenetworking.com. This is all done in a super easy, non cringe, down to earth way. It's not going to be awkward. It's not going to make you look like a wanker. It's not going to make anybody you talk to, look like a jerk. It's just practical exercises that are going to make you a better connector, a better colleague, a better friend, a better peer. I think wanker is a worse word in some places than I intended. Sorry, folks. Anyway, six minutes a day is all it takes, and many of the guests on our show already subscribe and contribute to the course. Hey, come join us. You'll be in smart company where you belong. You can find the course sixminutenetworking.com.

[00:18:13] Now back to Skeptical Sunday.

[00:18:17] Often, I think they're selling you these things while you're on vacation. Isn't that sort of a tempting thing? It's always like, I used to get those calls. I don't answer my phone at all anymore unless it's my wife or like you. But I used to get these calls and it would be like, "You've won a free Disney World vacation. Just come down and view our properties." And it's like, they make it sound like you're just going to be chilling somewhere, but you're on vacation, you think you're going to go to Disneyland. You're not crunching the numbers. You're sipping a canned margarita in a free presentation about timeshares while Jimmy Buffett plays quietly in the background.

[00:18:50] Kevin Rapp: Yeah, it's just — you're like wasting away your life savings in Margaritaville, right?

[00:18:54] Jordan Harbinger: Yes, precisely.

[00:18:56] Kevin Rapp: And you know, like honestly, plenty of these developers, they've read Dr. Robert Cialdini's book Influence or listened to this podcast. So they hit you over the head with reciprocity by offering you free Disneyland tickets, three-night getaways, all you can eat buffets. Then they get you into these multi-hour presentations, and they're high pressure sales tactics like expiring deals. "Oh, everyone's buying these, or you got to buy this, Jordan. Think of your wife. Happy wife. Happy life, man."

[00:19:24] Jordan Harbinger: It's gross, man. This is just gross. Because after two plates of just about any buffet, I'm done. And also those high pressure sales tactics don't sound so nice either.

[00:19:32] Kevin Rapp: That's right. And we haven't even talked about how in some of these point-based timeshare systems, like the value erodes over time.

[00:19:38] Jordan Harbinger: Sure.

[00:19:38] Kevin Rapp: You know, you can see this in like a lot of the online forums where people are talking about how their points are being devalued. Like they can't get the same week in the same resort like they used to. You know, it's just difficult for them to even find a booking, which fits their needs. And I mean, that really all comes down to this fact that the corporations continue to sell these timeshare products to other people. Like, "Oh, keep buying my points based timeshare." To just shift around the point valuation. They could keep moving more product. It's just really not great.

[00:20:05] Jordan Harbinger: Ah, okay. I see. So they sell a ton of these things and theoretically, they need more supply. And the way to get that supply is they need to buy new units or build a new apartment building, high rise full of these timeshares, or they can take your points, squeeze them down, and make them worth less, which is free for them instead of like tens of millions of dollars.

[00:20:27] Kevin Rapp: Exactly.

[00:20:28] Jordan Harbinger: And accomplish the exact same thing.

[00:20:30] Kevin Rapp: Yeah. You're right on with that. You can imagine this kind of leads to these nightmare stories of people trying to use their timeshares.

[00:20:37] Jordan Harbinger: I feel like I've heard this through the grapevine, but nothing specific or juicy. You have a good example for us?

[00:20:42] Kevin Rapp: Oh, I sure do. I really, really do. You know, before doing that, I'd like to kind of say, these horror stories really appear to be tied to like the legacy timeshare brands. I'll call them Westgate Resorts, Wyndham Resorts, Diamond Resorts. Like some timeshare brands actually seem to be pretty honorable and like people have kind of nice things to say about them? So just — they don't really have these people who are talking about what an awful service they are.

[00:21:05] Jordan Harbinger: Here's the problem, Kevin. Nuance. We don't want that on this show at all. Just tell us the gory details of how bad timeshares are and of someone's terrible experience.

[00:21:15] Kevin Rapp: All right, fine. Fine. So I watched the story, which we can link in the show notes, about how one couple spent $11,000 plus a yearly maintenance fee of $800 on a Westgate Resorts timeshare, and they did that for six years.

[00:21:28] Jordan Harbinger: Wow.

[00:21:29] Kevin Rapp: Right. They were never able to use their timeshare. Not even once.

[00:21:35] Jordan Harbinger: How is that possible?

[00:21:36] Kevin Rapp: I mean, well first, they actually ask you to book it on the phone.

[00:21:40] Jordan Harbinger: That's so annoying already.

[00:21:41] Kevin Rapp: Absolutely. Clearly despicable, right?

[00:21:43] Jordan Harbinger: The ability to talk to other people using my voice, by far my least favorite feature of my phone.

[00:21:49] Kevin Rapp: Exactly. But like honestly, somehow it gets worse. Year one, this couple kind of calls a month in advance and they're told they called too late.

[00:21:56] Jordan Harbinger: Sure.

[00:21:56] Kevin Rapp: Year two comes around and they're like, calling six months in advance and they're told they're too early.

[00:22:01] Jordan Harbinger: Mmm.

[00:22:01] Kevin Rapp: So now year three's rolling around and they're kind of feeling like they're in that goldilock zone, you know?

[00:22:06] Jordan Harbinger: Sure.

[00:22:06] Kevin Rapp: They're calling three months in advance. Guess what they're told here?

[00:22:10] Jordan Harbinger: Too late again?

[00:22:12] Kevin Rapp: You aren't really giving us too much time —

[00:22:15] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, basically that.

[00:22:15] Kevin Rapp: Yeah. To accommodate you here. But listen, you know, we'll let you stay here, you're just going to have to pay a regular price, like a regular hotel guest.

[00:22:22] Jordan Harbinger: Right. So basically, you could have just gotten the hotel, anyway. But ugh, that's absurd. I'd be so angry that I would do nothing because these timeshares probably have ironclad contracts.

[00:22:33] Kevin Rapp: A hundred percent. They really, really do. And honestly, even that story gets like more comical somehow. Like they complain about this whole thing and instead of refunding them, Westgate's trying to upsell them into paying another $15,000 so they can use their timeshare.

[00:22:49] Jordan Harbinger: Ah, it's delusional. "Hey, we didn't deliver on your first six years, but if you give us twice as much money, the next six years, they're going to be great. Just look at that shimmering swimming pool, lightly urinated in swimming pool."

[00:23:01] Kevin Rapp: A hundred percent. You know, you just got to trust them, right? You're trying to get out of this like ironclad contract, right? And they always kind of sell you this idea that you can always get out of it just by selling your timeshare.

[00:23:13] Jordan Harbinger: Right.

[00:23:13] Kevin Rapp: But again, with this story of this couple, they go to do that and guess what? Nobody wants it.

[00:23:18] Jordan Harbinger: Right.

[00:23:19] Kevin Rapp: Nobody wants my maintenance fee. My yearly maintenance fee that I can't use.

[00:23:23] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Oof.

[00:23:25] Kevin Rapp: Exactly. And so they couldn't sell it and they end up actually hiring this investigative reporter team. They kind of really go into how absurd some of this stuff can get. Because like their contract says they own a specific week of a specific address and then, you know, these reporters end up going to this address and the address doesn't even exist.

[00:23:43] Jordan Harbinger: Crazy. So the whole property was a sham and by extension, their ability to use it. And the plan, ostensibly was, "Oh, just offer them something else." But that something else was never available.

[00:23:53] Kevin Rapp: Yeah. And so for what I can tell from my research here, these legacy timeshare companies, which again, I'm clarifying, are these like Westgate and Diamond Resorts. They're kind of the ones that truly have these horror stories that kind of make your skin crawl. You know, it's stuff like preying on immigrants by selling them on the idea of owning a vacation, being the American dream, or actually, my personal favorite is — forcing people into financially awkward situations like borrowing from their 401k to pay off a $42,000 loan at 15 percent.

[00:24:24] Jordan Harbinger: Oh my gosh. So you not only ruin people's time off while they're in their working years, but then you are actively extending their working years by soaking up their retirement funds.

[00:24:34] Kevin Rapp: Yeah.

[00:24:34] Jordan Harbinger: That's super despicable. And look —

[00:24:35] Kevin Rapp: it's nuts.

[00:24:36] Jordan Harbinger: I know that like no one's forcing you to empty your 401k, but if that's your only option because you were kind of lied to/duped into this purchase that ended up being way more expensive? I don't know. It kind of sounds like college.

[00:24:50] Kevin Rapp: Totally. And you know, just like college, I don't want to paint with this kind of broad brush. It's kinda like, it's not everybody. It's not all the people doing wrong things. It's — there's these timeshare properties that actually are honorable. Not every single one of them is looking to take you for a ride.

[00:25:04] Jordan Harbinger: Really? Because everything you've said so far, it kind of makes me feel like they're all pretty fricking corrupt and scammy.

[00:25:10] Kevin Rapp: That's fair. I'll give you that. But honestly, it really does vary between these brands like Westgate, Wyndham, Diamond, yeah. The consensus online, these are terrible, terrible companies. You should never go get a timeshare with them. But you know, if you're looking to buy from someone like Disney or Hilton or Marriott, those companies are more brand conscious, so they just don't want people talking sh*t on the internet.

[00:25:31] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:32] Kevin Rapp: Like, you know, meaning they will go to greater lengths to make sure people are happy.

[00:25:35] Jordan Harbinger: Now's a great time to mention that this podcast is sponsored by Hilton Timeshares. Your perfect vacation awaits, and we promise the condo definitely exists. Anyway, Kevin, if they figure out — I can't believe the address didn't even exist. That's next-level lazy scamming where they're just like, "Eh, what's Google Maps?" if they can figure out how to get people to stop talking sh*t on the internet though, I feel like that's just a whole new business unit for Disney to start selling.

[00:25:59] Kevin Rapp: Oh, totally. And you know, maybe they could like start bundling it together with a timeshare and a Disney plus subscription.

[00:26:04] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Timeshare, internet sh*t talk removal, passes to Disney World, $170,000, mostly for the passes to Disney World.

[00:26:13] Kevin Rapp: Right, right. And like, you know, you get access to Disney World and that gets you access to Peacock and that gets you access to the Pentagon and all of a sudden, you can see the ability to see who killed JFK or so.

[00:26:22] Jordan Harbinger: Right, yeah. It's the bundling stuff's out of control. Except for PodcastOne of course, which works tirelessly to bring you the best content like this podcast for free on the PodcastOne app.

[00:26:31] Kevin Rapp: Absolutely shameless, Jordan. But not as shameless as some of these timeshare developers.

[00:26:35] Jordan Harbinger: Amen, man. Now, okay, what is this that I've heard about there actually being like a — the whole industry, getting people out of timeshares. You kind of mentioned that at the top of the show.

[00:26:44] Kevin Rapp: Right, right. So let's say you want out. You realize that, "This isn't what I signed up for."

[00:26:48] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-Hmm.

[00:26:48] Kevin Rapp: "And I can't even use my points. I don't want to pay the maintenance fees. I really need to get out of this." Well, like good luck, honestly. Because oftentimes, the contracts, they're complex. They make them deliberately difficult to break. So to basically address this problem, you have the rise of law firms, which specialize in getting you out of timeshares.

[00:27:07] Jordan Harbinger: That is crazy. So there's this entire army of lawyers, standing at the ready to specifically get you out of a predatory timeshare contract. Wow. My fellow attorneys have gone from chasing ambulances to chasing faceless corporations shilling condos in Aruba that may or may not exist. Gosh. Seriously. So you're telling me that if I want to get out of a timeshare contract, I got to hire some lawyer at like 200 plus dollars an hour, to get me out of my $20,000 loan that I already can't afford.

[00:27:34] Kevin Rapp: Yeah. I mean, most likely, yes. And honestly, unfortunately, some of these are also scams.

[00:27:40] Jordan Harbinger: Dang, that is a double whammy. But you know what, that's also not surprising. A lot of scam remediation companies, are themselves scams. Like, if you lose Bitcoin online or cryptocurrency or you get, I don't know, whatever, there's some sort of extortion, you will almost al— and you post about it on Reddit, for example. You'll almost always get a DM that's like, "Hey, we can help you with this." And there's even warnings that are like, "Hey, don't fall for these dms because" I guess the psychology is if you fell for a scam, you're desperate and you're kind of the type of guy that falls for scams. So if I can hit —

[00:28:14] Kevin Rapp: Go where fish are.

[00:28:15] Jordan Harbinger: Hit at this vulnerable moment in your life and where you're not thinking clearly and you are already predisposed to fall for scams, you're exactly the type of guy that I'm looking for if I'm a scammer. So it's not surprising that some of these get-out-of-this-desperate-contract is also just, you know, fork over money and then have no recourse.

[00:28:33] Kevin Rapp: Yeah, exactly. And the law firms that do these timeshare businesses, they're exactly like the timeshares themselves, right? They're like these good actors, bad actors. And the good actors, they really do want to help you get out of this, right? But like the bad actors, they just kick you while you're down.

[00:28:47] Jordan Harbinger: So what does a scam such as this, look like exactly?

[00:28:50] Kevin Rapp: Yeah, great question. So like essentially, they'll accept your money as a flat fee and then you'll go to them and you'll be like, "Hey, I want to get out of my timeshare." So they'll give you the advice to default on paying the company back and roll the dice as to whether that company sends a notice, which ruins your credit.

[00:29:07] Jordan Harbinger: That's insane. So how do they reason that to work? I mean, you're going to take a major hit to your credit score.

[00:29:12] Kevin Rapp: Sure. You know, this argument, basically, it goes like, it's uncommon for a timeshare agencies to kind of come after you for defaulted maintenance fees, so just stop paying them. But you know, pay me on your credit card.

[00:29:22] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Jesus. So get out of your 17 percent loan by taking out another 17 percent loan or 21 percent, depending on your credit card terms. Classic scammers. But then, what do the good guys do? How do they get you out of the contract? Actual legal work?

[00:29:35] Kevin Rapp: Definitely, yeah. Like they'll look at the whole body of work and, you know, they went to a real law school, so.

[00:29:40] Jordan Harbinger: Right.

[00:29:40] Kevin Rapp: They'll like say, some way you can get out of it, right? So like some common legal grounds that I've seen, you know, they'll build a case about how you were — there's misrepresentation or fraud during the timeshare sales process. You got like Violation of Consumer Protection laws or failure of the timeshare company to fulfill contractual obligations. You know, stuff like that.

[00:29:58] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm. Right. So good old fashioned contract law. I can't believe — I guess I can. But it's hard to believe that there's enough demand. There's a whole industry propped up by what a scam another industry is. Again, I can believe it, but it's just sad. So, like I thought going into this, timeshares are bad. I won't be buying one. Especially from those aforementioned, disastrous companies.

[00:30:19] Kevin Rapp: Yeah. And honestly, I think, Jordan. This is kind of where it gets a little bit interesting for me is that I'm not actually sure if it's right, that you just unilaterally shouldn't buy a timeshare.

[00:30:28] Jordan Harbinger: Really? I'm surprised.

[00:30:30] Kevin Rapp: Yeah, totally. When you — and obviously, again, if you believe the statistics from the timeshare developers, most timeshare owners love their timeshare.

[00:30:39] Jordan Harbinger: I somehow find that hard to believe. But again, first of all, I know people own timeshares. Every single one of them loves it. Goes there every year. Talks about it nonstop. Tries to convince us to like buy one next to them in Florida. And also, my family went to a boring ass lake house every weekend to eat Cheetos and stare out the window. And so, a timeshare doesn't sound that bad if that's the competition.

[00:30:58] Kevin Rapp: Definitely. And like I was saying, the case study by artists as it like eight and 10 timeshare owners said they would happily buy their timeshare again. And honestly, I found that surprising. Like I only ever hear bad things about timeshares.

[00:31:10] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:31:11] Kevin Rapp: You know, I'm like, "What kind of Stockholm syndrome do these people have?" Right?

[00:31:13] Jordan Harbinger: Sure.

[00:31:14] Kevin Rapp: That's was my first reaction.

[00:31:15] Jordan Harbinger: I mean, there is something to be said. People paid big bucks for these. They probably have a hard time admitting that they're wrong or that they got hosed, they got ripped off. So there's some rationalization there. Also, this study was commissioned, like you said, by the timeshare industry group. So maybe we take this info with the lost shaker of salt that Jimmy Buffett left on the sticky canned margarita coated floor earlier in the episode.

[00:31:37] Kevin Rapp: Yeah, I mean, I totally get that sentiment. But like, honestly, it seems like people actually use the thing they paid for.

[00:31:43] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:44] Kevin Rapp: And like, they're claiming that they derive a lot of value out of it. So I'll give you some more stats here. Nearly 60 percent of timeshare owners either used their timeshare or banked it.

[00:31:53] Jordan Harbinger: Huh.

[00:31:54] Kevin Rapp: Yeah. And 77 percent of timeshare owners took a vacation at a timeshare resort last year.

[00:31:59] Jordan Harbinger: I need a timeshare where you can bank it. Like I'll pay for it and then not use it for 20 years, and then I will just be in there for three more years until I die in the property. You think they allow that?

[00:32:11] Kevin Rapp: I think so. I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure.

[00:32:13] Jordan Harbinger: It's interesting though. I'd always pegged this as something people buy and then immediately regret. And spend the next decade, desperately trying to get out of the deal and use those forums and those lawyers and whatnot.

[00:32:23] Kevin Rapp: Definitely, and I mean, honestly, I also thought that going into this. And that take does get supported by studies out of the University of Central Florida. There, they claim that 85 percent of timeshare owners regretted their purchase.

[00:32:34] Jordan Harbinger: Mmm.

[00:32:35] Kevin Rapp: But again, those are stats that get thrown out by timeshare law firms. So, it's kinda hard to suss out like, is this just cherry picking in the opposite direction? Like I said, it's just a very murky. Like the developers say everyone loves it. Law firms say everyone hates it.

[00:32:48] Jordan Harbinger: Okay, so maybe all of these stats, let's assume they're all BS and it's just somewhere in the middle, maybe.

[00:32:54] Kevin Rapp: Yeah. And that's where I was at too, you know. So to suss out whether or not I was just kind of consuming propaganda here, I actually conducted some field research.

[00:33:02] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, you took a crappy, overpriced vacation.

[00:33:04] Kevin Rapp: That's right, Jordan. You know, as part of my painstaking research process for this podcast, I went to the white sand beaches of Aruba. I stayed in a hotel while my parents stayed in their timeshare.

[00:33:14] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. You're so committed to Skeptical Sunday, man. I love it. I appreciate that.

[00:33:17] Kevin Rapp: Yeah. I'm as brave as a war reporter, you know. Just selflessly sitting on a beach in perfect weather, just trying to get close enough to that raucous bingo scene.

[00:33:25] Jordan Harbinger: So courageous.

[00:33:26] Kevin Rapp: You know, but honestly, like what I'll say are two huge positives about timeshares that I saw coming out of that — One, was like the cost of my parents' stay was actually stable.

[00:33:36] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:36] Kevin Rapp: You know, like the cheapest hotel in Aruba was $500 a night.

[00:33:39] Jordan Harbinger: Oof.

[00:33:40] Kevin Rapp: Like, honestly, let me tell you, didn't feel great as we were trying to book the trip and like we were just staring down the barrel of spending $500 a night to stay in the Holiday Inn.

[00:33:49] Jordan Harbinger: Oh yeah. Oof.

[00:33:50] Kevin Rapp: So there's something to be said about how like a timeshare is a stable price and it's robust to insane price hikes, like when your area becomes more popular.

[00:33:58] Jordan Harbinger: When you said $500 a night, I was like, "Yeah. Stayed at the Four Seasons. Got a pretty decent deal." No. Stayed at a Holiday Inn. It sure sucks that you spend $500, but then when you save a man's life on the beach as he's choking on his acai bowl, and you say, "I'm not a doctor, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express Hotel for $500 plus tax, plus resort fees last night." I mean, that's got to kind of make up for something, doesn't it?

[00:34:18] Kevin Rapp: I don't even know if I can laugh at that, because that'd just be like dating ourselves even further than you just did.

[00:34:23] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, oh. Is that advertise — Is that campaign over?

[00:34:25] Kevin Rapp: I think so.

[00:34:25] Jordan Harbinger: They don't run those commercials anymore? Let's just segue back to timeshares then, as if I said nothing.

[00:34:30] Kevin Rapp: Totally. I'll just, I'll try. And a second huge positive though, about the timeshare is honestly this community aspect. Like my parents have been going to the same timeshare, same week for the last 20 years.

[00:34:41] Jordan Harbinger: Wow.

[00:34:42] Kevin Rapp: Yeah. And they have this community of people who are there at the same time each year. I actually thought it was like pretty cool to see them like, it's their neighbors. Like every year, for one week, it is their neighbors.

[00:34:51] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:52] Kevin Rapp: And it just kind of felt a bit more permanent than sort of the transient feel of some vacations.

[00:34:56] Jordan Harbinger: You know what's cooler than a week in Des Moines in the middle of October because that's the only week you could get? The fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

[00:35:06] This episode is sponsored in part by DeleteMe. You know how sometimes people could snoop around and find stuff about you that you never told them, like what you buy online, where you hang out on the internet, even personal stuff like your name and where you live? Well, there are companies that actually collect this kind of information without asking you first, and then they sell it to others. It's all legal too. It's a bit scary because it can lead to problems like identity theft and getting tricked by fake emails. I actually got tricked by a really good fake email. I don't want to talk about it, but that's where DeleteMe steps in. They go around to hundreds of these companies and make sure that they erase any information they have on you. And the cool thing is they check first to make sure they're not accidentally giving out your info while trying to protect it. And the best part, you don't need to be a computer genius to use DeleteMe. It's great for everyone. Even people like my parents who are just not that familiar with all this tech stuff, but they still want to be safe.

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[00:36:13] Jordan Harbinger: Let me introduce you to a podcast that I love. It's called The Gist. Hosted by Mike Pesca. This is not a news commentary show with dudes trying to virtue signal and score points. Mike delivers insightful interviews and perspectives that cut through typical partisan chatter. Pushes the boundaries of conventional thinking, one might say. The Gist is renowned for being the longest running podcast in its genre. You've probably seen it around the iTunes charts or whatever the kids call 'em these days. It's easy to see why — Pesca's unique blend of curiosity and skepticism leads to actual thought-provoking discussions that will challenge you. Offer up arguments that are compelling. You're going to be eager to share them. I find myself doing that. Recent episodes have featured an eclectic mix of guests from a Pixar and Saturday Night live writer who predicts AI's takeover of comedy to a Pulitzer Prize. Is it Pulitzer? Or Politzer? I never know. Prize winning journalist, uncovering truths about the Covid lab leak theory, which sounds like something we do on this show. Other notable conversations include insights from a Baltimore City attorney, which it kind of sounds like The Wire, and you'll like it if you like The Wire, I suppose. And a gun manufacturer who's created a firearm that only works with facial and fingerprint recognition, which I hope works like super fast. So if you're looking for a podcast that offers more than just echo chamber rhetoric nonsense, give The Gist a listen wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:37:19] Thank you for listening to and supporting the show. Your support of our sponsors does keep the lights on around here. To learn — and it pays for my monthly maintenance fees. To learn more and get links to all the deals you hear on the show so you can check out the sponsors for yourself. They're all searchable and clickable at jordanharbinger.com/deals.

[00:37:35] Now for the rest of skeptical Sunday.

[00:37:38] I can get behind that, right? You know, like, "Oh, Martha and Tom are going to be there. I wonder if something, something catch up. Oh, they last emailed me six months ago and now."

[00:37:46] Kevin Rapp: Yeah, "Shout out to Bob and his great performance of the karaoke that one night."

[00:37:49] Jordan Harbinger: That's right, that's right. Like, "I wonder if John's going to come with his mistress or his wife this time." You know?

[00:37:54] Kevin Rapp: Yeah.

[00:37:54] Jordan Harbinger: There's going to be some juicy drama. I can see why that would be appealing and it helps me understand a bit more why these have even a shred of popularity.

[00:38:03] Kevin Rapp: Totally. And i, again, like the popularity is just staggering. Like in 2022, the average timeshare occupancy was 78 percent. Compare that to hotel inventory and that was a 62 percent?

[00:38:14] Jordan Harbinger: Crazy. I just can't believe they're this popular. I know a couple old folks that have a timeshare, but that's literally it.

[00:38:20] Kevin Rapp: Yeah, and there's honestly another wrinkle here too, which is that people have this tough time going on vacation.

[00:38:26] Jordan Harbinger: Well, Americans, yeah.

[00:38:27] Kevin Rapp: Yeah. To totally. There's just like a lot of work associated with it, right? Like you got to request the time off and you got to find a place to go. You got to book your tickets, find a hotel, create this tour of sites you want to see.

[00:38:39] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it's always way more work than you think it should be. Planning vacations can be exhausting, and I'm lucky enough to be like, "Jen. Plan this vacation to Japan." Right?

[00:38:47] Kevin Rapp: Totally.

[00:38:48] Jordan Harbinger: And I still — and even that's tiring for me.

[00:38:51] Kevin Rapp: And a timeshare kind of takes care of a lot of that for you, right? Like there's just a few places that you can go.

[00:38:56] Jordan Harbinger: Sure. Yeah, your options are super limited. You basically show up and you hope your condo is still there.

[00:39:01] Kevin Rapp: Exactly, exactly.

[00:39:02] Jordan Harbinger: I really feel that. I love vacationing, of course. But now I've got two kids and it feels like there's so much crap you need to figure out before you get your tickets booked. "Where are we going to eat? What are the kids going to do? How far is everything from the hotel? Can we get the kids there? Is it worth going there if they're going to cry halfway through the ride?" To all that stuff, right?

[00:39:18] Kevin Rapp: Totally, totally. And an all inclusive resort that you go to every year, it solves a lot of that. And this pressure to kinda like use it or lose, it actually seems to get people to take vacations. There's a study out of the timeshare users group and that found that 79 percent of owners indicated they go on more vacations than they would've taken without their timeshare.

[00:39:37] Jordan Harbinger: I suppose. Because you already paid for it, right?

[00:39:39] Kevin Rapp: Totally.

[00:39:39] Jordan Harbinger: So it's like, are you just not going to take it? Because again, for me, I need a timeshare that I can just not use for 20 years and bank all the days. And that is honestly good for most of us Americans who work through our time off, if we're just not forced to do something with it. And that's kind of a sad indictment of our work culture, I suppose. Like I'm only going to take a vacation if I'm literally going to lose thousands of dollars by not taking a vacation.

[00:40:02] Kevin Rapp: Totally. And like, again, this art of research found that timeshare owners took an average of four vacations.

[00:40:07] Jordan Harbinger: Wow.

[00:40:08] Kevin Rapp: And you know, I can't — I don't know what the average American takes, but far —

[00:40:11] Jordan Harbinger: Not four.

[00:40:11] Kevin Rapp: Yeah, totally. I feel like it's less than four.

[00:40:13] Jordan Harbinger: Per year, right?

[00:40:14] Kevin Rapp: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And like, all of this needs to be balanced with like — but are these people really able to afford this? Assuming they can, they're having a blast with it.

[00:40:23] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Cool. So now it's just me, Jen, our two kids, and 50, 80 year olds jazzercising in the Orlando Dream Vacations pool, lightly urinated pool. Sounds like a ride.

[00:40:34] Kevin Rapp: And honestly, I thought that too, right? Like I have this vision of a timeshare and it's exactly that.

[00:40:40] Jordan Harbinger: It's like Cocoon. You ever seen that movie? They're old, don't worry about it. It's another reference that no one will understand.

[00:40:46] Kevin Rapp: Perfect, perfect. Holiday Inn Express, Cocoon, we're crushing it today. Like exactly like you were just saying, I thought the average person who uses these is old.

[00:40:54] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:40:55] Kevin Rapp: Guess what? They're actually surprisingly popular with the youths.

[00:40:58] Jordan Harbinger: I kind of can't believe that that's the case. How is that possible?

[00:41:02] Kevin Rapp: Totally. Like today, like over half of timeshare owners are Gen Z or millennials. The average age of that timeshare owner is 39 years old.

[00:41:12] Jordan Harbinger: That's a good 30 years below what I actually had in mind. I really thought everybody would be over 60, possibly, over 70 years old. Are these just young people who are ending up with dearly departed granny's timeshare? Are they inheriting this stuff?

[00:41:25] Kevin Rapp: Like maybe some of them, you know? But like actually not all of these owners are inheriting. Millennials and Gen Z account for 53 percent of new sales purchases.

[00:41:34] Jordan Harbinger: Wow.

[00:41:34] Kevin Rapp: Yeah, like the Marriott vacation clubs, over 66 percent of first time buyers are under the age of 42.

[00:41:40] Jordan Harbinger: I did not see that coming, at all. I guess having a timeshare, and this is a little depressing, might be the closest that the younger generation will ever get to home ownership, at least in the next few decades, and that is again, sad. But I suppose I understand the appeal here. You're renting, you're living in with your parents, or you're renting like a studio apartment and you're like, "But, I have a condo in Florida."

[00:42:00] Kevin Rapp: A hundred percent. You know, these young Gen Zs, they're just kind of quiet quitting right into that Hepatitis A at a Sandals Resort and like Fort Lauderdale.

[00:42:09] Jordan Harbinger: Conveniently located behind a strip mall with access to Chinese food, kids karate mattress store, and an ethnic market that sells exotic life animals that apparently you're supposed to cook and eat. I got it.

[00:42:18] Kevin Rapp: Yeah. But you're saying, there's this emotional piece here, right?

[00:42:22] Jordan Harbinger: Yes.

[00:42:22] Kevin Rapp: Like, people love the feeling of being an owner and they can just say they own something when they might not own anything else where they spend time, you know? And that's really not a knock on timeshare owners.

[00:42:33] Jordan Harbinger: No.

[00:42:33] Kevin Rapp: That's actually just a knock on late stage capitalism.

[00:42:35] Jordan Harbinger: Sure. Yeah. The housing prices. It's also a little bit of a knock on timeshare owners.

[00:42:40] Kevin Rapp: You know, again, I feel the media portrays these timeshare owners as like these old dumb hillbillies.

[00:42:46] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:47] Kevin Rapp: But in reality, they're like these young, educated middle class people.

[00:42:50] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, yeah. Surprising.

[00:42:51] Kevin Rapp: Totally. And it's like, you know, 63 percent of timeshare owners have a four year college degree. And compare that to like the 38 percent of Americans as a whole, right? The median household income for timeshare owners, that's actually larger than the median household income for the US.

[00:43:05] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. People certainly do paint timeshare owners as like the people who voted Terry Crew's character into power in the movie, Idiocracy. When it's really, just a normal, educated, young person who realizes that the American dream of home ownership is actually a total farce for them and way out of reach.

[00:43:21] Kevin Rapp: Oh, totally. And you know, just to kind of go back to Idiocracy. I think we all still get chills when we think about President Camacho State of the Union address.

[00:43:28] Jordan Harbinger: You know, there will be a time where you make a reference to Idiocracy and you'll feel old and no one else will get it, and then you'll know what my entire life is like. Yeah. This is all super fascinating. Okay, so give it to me straight. What do you personally — after doing all the research, what do you think about timeshares? You plowed through all this data. Are you getting one or no?

[00:43:46] Kevin Rapp: Yeah, definitely. I mean, you know, I think it's popular to say the timeshares are a scam. And I would say that timeshares are a scam if you don't run the numbers. Like if you can afford it though, it can actually be a pretty perfect option for some people.

[00:43:58] Jordan Harbinger: So, which kind of people? Because for me, getting stuck going to the same place every year, it sounds, in many ways, worse than just staying at home.

[00:44:06] Kevin Rapp: You know, I think that's just because you're like a hopeless workaholic, you know? Just find it impossible to relax.

[00:44:11] Jordan Harbinger: Well, touche. Yeah.

[00:44:12] Kevin Rapp: But you know, yeah. Like the kind of people this is perfect for, they like going to the same place over and over again. They like a very standard, expected experience when they travel. The person might even have like trouble taking a vacation and need a forcing function to do it. A timeshare removes so much complexity and now they're just this list of places they can go and here are the places you can stay. Yeah, I mean it's perfect for that person, right? Obviously, provided that person has the money up front to pay for it and they can pay an ever increasing maintenance fee in perpetuity.

[00:44:42] Jordan Harbinger: Right. But they don't need that original loan at 17 percent or whatever. That washes away all the savings.

[00:44:46] Kevin Rapp: Exactly.

[00:44:47] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. That sounds like quite a specific person, but of course there's plenty of those people.

[00:44:51] Kevin Rapp: Totally. And honestly, if that specific person is out there, I'd give you two more pieces of advice. First, I'd look to buy a timeshare on the resale market, like we talked about with that couple's nightmare story. A ton of people try to offload it when they realize that they can't pay the maintenance fee in perpetuity. So you can really find a deal out there, obviously, be wary of fake sales. Again, this is another area where there's a ton of scammers out there.

[00:45:14] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Like you should be suspicious of any Nigerian princes unloading their week in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

[00:45:20] Kevin Rapp: Yeah, exactly. And that's just a fact of life. You should probably never — Yeah, exactly.

[00:45:25] Jordan Harbinger: No one stays in Grand Rapids.

[00:45:26] Kevin Rapp: You shouldn't buy —

[00:45:27] Jordan Harbinger: No one.

[00:45:28] Kevin Rapp: Yeah. And if you need to send him money for something, then also don't do that. My second piece of advice is that if you're going to buy one, buy through one of these bigger brands like Disney, Hilton, Marriott. They're just invest in their brand and they don't want to see it devalued by people having bad experiences. You know, even you could go through a timeshare ownership group that's kind of known and vetted, like you know, your friends use it. They talk really highly about it. I would just say, know what you're buying, know who you're buying from.

[00:45:55] Jordan Harbinger: Once again, the perfect time to shout out our fake sponsor, Hilton Timeshares. For real though, a lot of qualifying statements here and none of them really says, "Hey, this makes financial sense."

[00:46:05] Kevin Rapp: Oh, totally. And I don't think everything needs to make absolute financial sense.

[00:46:09] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:09] Kevin Rapp: I really just think it needs to not bankrupt you and you need to get enjoyment from it.

[00:46:13] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. That makes sense. I can kind of get behind that, right? It doesn't have to be like a good investment. If this is you and you feel like you're going to enjoy this and actually take vacations, go ahead. Do it.

[00:46:22] Kevin Rapp: Yeah, exactly. And just kind of like undoubtedly, there are these non-financially sophisticated people just being taken advantage of. People just don't know what they're getting into. But there's this other group of people who love it, they can afford it, and the ownership model fits them perfectly.

[00:46:37] Jordan Harbinger: It sounds like we have the lame answer of it depends on this episode of Skeptical Sunday, but you know, what else is there?

[00:46:44] Kevin Rapp: You know me, Jordan. Just a big nuance guy. It's — just so educated.

[00:46:48] Jordan Harbinger: Nah, nope. Never taken a stand.

[00:46:51] Kevin Rapp: Exactly. You know, you'd just never be wrong if you play both sides.

[00:46:54] Jordan Harbinger: Such a politician.

[00:46:56] Kevin Rapp: But for me, personally, this phase of my life, I'd just not — I wouldn't buy a timeshare. And it really comes down to two reasons. First is cost. I just find the true ownership of the timeshare with the cost and the maintenance fee, it's just not enough of a deal versus just buying the individual vacations to be particularly compelling. The second reason is just vacation selection. You know, like you're limited to where the timeshares have resorts and hotels. And I like to travel to different places, and I don't always want to stay in a resort. I maybe want the ability to pick a place right in the premier part of the city I'm staying in or change hotels to be closer to a different part of the city that I want to follow along with on my trip. But you know, if you can pay for the timeshare and you have your spot that you go to, timeshare might be exactly what you want. So just know the numbers and know yourself.

[00:47:43] Jordan Harbinger: It sounds right. For me, this is obviously not my jam, right? Because sometimes, at least in the past, pre-kids, I would go to places like North Korea. I'm going to bet the listings over there are pretty sparse.

[00:47:55] Kevin Rapp: I don't know. I bet you could get any week a year in Pyongyang.

[00:47:57] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, man. Pick of the litter. Thanks, Kevin. And thanks — Special thanks to our fake sponsor, Hilton Timeshare. They actually — they should sponsor this show. I'm going to go after Disney and what was the other one? Hilton Timeshares and I can't remember the other one. But that'll be the one that signs with us. No freebies.

[00:48:13] Thanks y'all for listening. Topic suggestions for future episodes of Skeptical Sunday to jordan@jordanharbinger.com. Show notes at jordanharbinger.com. Transcripts are in the show notes. Advertisers, deals, discounts, and ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com/deals. I am @JordanHarbinger on both Twitter and Instagram or just hit me on LinkedIn. You can find Kevin Rapp at fullofkrapp.substack.com. That's K-R-A-P-P.

[00:48:39] This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer and I'm sure not a timeshare lawyer. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Also, we may get a few things wrong here and there, especially on Skeptical Sunday. I know, I know you love your timeshare, but if you really think we dropped the ball on something, let us know. We're usually pretty receptive to that. Y'all know how to reach me, jordan@jordanharbinger.com. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. And if you've found this episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use a good dose of the skepticism and knowledge that we doled out today, especially if one of your friends or family is thinking of buying a timeshare.

[00:49:20] In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.

[00:49:28] Thanks again to Nissan for sponsoring this episode of The Jordan Harbinger Show. Learn more at nissanusa.com.

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