961: Dark Prognosis of Friend’s Postpartum Psychosis | Feedback Friday

961: Dark Prognosis of Friend's Postpartum Psychosis | Feedback Friday

[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Special thanks to US Bank for sponsoring this episode of The Jordan Harbinger Show.

[00:00:08] Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the black polymer filter, allowing us to stare straight on into this blinding solar eclipse of life conundra, Gabriel Mizrahi.

[00:00:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: You know, then again, if I learned anything from decades of eating Cheerios, a tiny hole in a cereal box would probably suffice so —

[00:00:27] Jordan Harbinger: You know, you're right. I remember that. They even showed you on the box that you could do that. I don't —

[00:00:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's right.

[00:00:31] Jordan Harbinger: I originally didn't wanna highlight how replaceable you actually were, but I'm glad that you came to that conclusion yourself.

[00:00:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, yeah. It's called self-awareness.

[00:00:39] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:00:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: I got it.

[00:00:40] Jordan Harbinger: On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. And during the week, we have long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks. From arms dealers to undercover economic hitmen, gold smugglers, astronauts, rocket scientists, generals, tech luminaries, and music moguls. On Fridays though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, and generally, try to appreciate just how cray-crayy life can get and how to navigate the cray-cray so you can get through the day-day. Yeah, I would otherwise never say the words cray-cray. Don't worry, folks.

[00:01:19] Before we dive into the letters today, I wanted to share an idea that I came across a while back that has served me very well over the years. It's not revolutionary or anything, but it's powerful. The idea is, "Don't spend what you haven't earned." Now with money, okay. It's obvious. But this applies to actually to every domain. Avoid financial debt whenever possible. You don't spend money you haven't earned, okay. But avoid social debt. Don't spend goodwill that you haven't earned. Avoid calendar debt. Don't spend free time you haven't earned. I wish I could remember the source of this idea, but I do remember something this person said that stuck with me, which was, "The disciplined earner, can be a guilt-free spender." I think this is either Ramit Sethi or James Clear or both of those guys. I can't remember. And I love this idea. And I found that it helped me protect myself and enjoy the capital — capital of all kinds that I've built up over the years. And I especially, I love the idea as it applies to relationships. Because one of the qualities of great connectors, is that they invest in other people generously, genuinely, with no expectation of a return, especially not an immediate return. And they do this long before they ever need anything, right? It's almost like, dig the well before you get thirsty. Can't remember where I've heard that. But when you do this, these folks, they have this reservoir of loyalty and affection to draw on. And they're not trying to tap into it before they've accumulated the quote-unqoute, "Credit" So they never incur the debt. And this idea also applies to a job or a workplace. For example, when people write in asking how to land a promotion or get a raise, our advice is pretty much always to perform above their current responsibilities. Take the initiative, prove they're as valuable as they think they are, and then ask for the promotion or the raise. And rather than incurring a debt by asking for a raise and then doing the work, you do the work for a reasonable period of time, build up the value, build up the goodwill, and then you ask for the raise. At which point, it's just a way easier conversation.

[00:03:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. It's also much more fun to ask somebody to honor that quote-unquote, "Credit" than it is to ask them to incur that quote-unquote, "Debt".

[00:03:26] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly, right? Like, you're going to your boss and you're thinking, "Hey, I need a raise." And they're going, "Well, what are — what have you done for me lately?" But if you go to your boss and you're like, "So, I'm basically doing the manager's job after he left for the last three months." They're like, "Yeah, oh yeah. You should probably actually get paid like you're the manager. Let me go ahead and run that up the chain."

[00:03:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:03:42] Jordan Harbinger: So this idea also applies to free time, by the way. When it comes to enjoying downtime, I think a lot of people swing wildly in one direction. They either stop working and just do whatever they want and they pick up the pieces later. That's kind of like the 20 something strategy, which is not good. Or they become workaholics and they never take breaks, which is also not good. And that's what I'm saying, basically, what I did in my 30s. And honestly, I was — I sometimes even still am the latter type of person. For a while, I would work six to seven days a week. I'd burn out after a couple weeks. And then I would spend a whole day or maybe even a whole weekend, just dumbly staring at the tv. Or maybe turning my brain on enough to play Xbox or whatever. And then — or I just get like sick for a whole month and have a runny, stuffy nose and be tired all the time. Now I do things very differently. I plan my time off, I make sure my work is done inside those boundaries, and then I can fully enjoy my time off. And I'm not feeling this weird obligation to be working. Like I'm not snowboarding and going, "I have so many emails." right? I'm just going, "Eh, I got a lot of emails, but I already read the book I needed to read and I got a five hour bus ride home where I'm gonna finish it." right? So, now obviously, this is easier if you've got a job that requires you to be on premises or has defined hours. It's a little bit harder for remote workers and freelancers because now work is home and home is work, which means your discipline has to be a lot stronger. Not your motivation to get it done, but I just mean like, your discipline to get things done and then be done at 6:00 PM or whatever. And it's funny, as I mentioned, I just started learning to snowboard. And snowboarding has really helped me with this because you just can't take calls or do emails on the mountain. Nobody's on the chairlift being like, "Let me just reply to this real quick." I mean, maybe some people are, but I'm not quite there yet. So now when I got a phone call, I gotta prep an interview, I can't coast or punt on this until Saturday because I'm gonna be treading power, bro. I got to take it. I got to get done during the week. And having kids help me a lot too. You don't have to start snowboarding at age 44 to get this. Having just have some kids, that's easier. You feel like a real a-h*le telling your kids you're gonna take 'em to the zoo and then spending the entire time on a fricking zoom call, walking around outside the exhibit so you can hear other people. You do that one time, you will never do that again. Anyway, at first, I thought having kids and picking up hobbies like snowboarding would actually limit my flexibility. And in certain ways, of course it does. But in other ways, they're actually helping me create freedom because work and fun can't bleed into each other like they used to. So I have to be disciplined.

[00:06:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:06:03] Jordan Harbinger: And discipline avoids incurring that time debt, that then I feel a need to pay back and sacrifice sleep or whatever over.

[00:06:09] Anyway, you can see how that idea extended across all your relationships and your commitments can totally change the equation. It's a different way of seeing the world, and I find that it makes life a lot more enjoyable. So if you see a lot of overlap and a lot of things bleeding in, in your free time, you're thinking about work, and at work, you're burning out, definitely give this idea a little bit of a shot. And I talk about this in the six-minute networking course, by the way. It's one of the core ideas in there. So definitely check that out and give it a go. It's a game changer. I mean, they made the course, and I made it free, so that you can do this stuff and get the benefit from it. And you can either thank me later or be like most of you, and just never say anything. But anyway,

[00:06:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: A little passive-aggressive there at the end.

[00:06:49] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, no, that's fine. Just take the course that I made for free and never thank me at all. It's fine. I don't care.

[00:06:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: And never thank me and I'll just get on with my life.

[00:06:55] Jordan Harbinger: Totally not taking it personally.

[00:06:57] Anyway, we got some fun ones. We got some true, true doozies. And I wanna dive in.

[00:07:02] Gabe, take us to the first thing in the mailbag. And just a heads up for everyone listening, this first one is a — it's a tough listen. It involves some really grim stuff. So, yeah, heads up.

[00:07:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan a Gabe. Eight months ago, my friend Emma celebrated the arrival of her baby boy. Like my wife and me, she and her partner struggled for years to conceive. Watching her succeed brought immense joy to everyone in her circle. I've known Emma since music college, two decades now. And she's renowned in the local music scene for her talent and her compassion. She leads music and art workshops to support those facing substance abuse and mental health challenges, and she works to combat the stigma around mental health in our city. She is a truly remarkable person. Shortly after giving birth, Emma struggled to bond with her baby, which evolved into postpartum depression. Her partner got her professional help, which revealed that she was actually suffering from postpartum psychosis.

[00:07:59] Jordan Harbinger: Mmm.

[00:07:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: She was swiftly moved to a specialized mental health ward in a nearby city due to the perceived threat to the baby's safety.

[00:08:07] Jordan Harbinger: So, just to pause for a second here, I had never actually heard of postpartum psychosis before. We did a little reading about it, so I just wanna share a little bit for anybody who doesn't know. So we've probably already all heard of postpartum depression. Fairly common. Often referred to as the, "Baby blues." these are usually mild to moderate mood changes after having a baby when your hormones are still kind of evening out. Postpartum psychosis, well, it's what it sounds like. The symptoms can include hallucinations, delusions, mania, low mood or energy, or just rapidly changing moods and they — so you get anxiety, agitation, being withdrawn, losing your normal inhibitions. And apparently, this happens to one in a thousand mothers after giving birth. So a 10th of 1% of mothers. Okay, that's very rare. But still, that means millions of women around the world experience this in some form, which I think is pretty wild.

[00:08:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: Also, they don't know exactly what causes postpartum psychosis, but apparently you're more at risk if you've already had a diagnosis of say, bipolar disorder or schizophrenia, or if you have a family history of mental illness or other women in your family have had postpartum psychosis or if you had postpartum psychosis after a previous pregnancy. But also, interestingly, it can happen if you had a traumatic birth or pregnancy, which is kind of terrifying. So based on what we read, the most severe symptoms tend to last two to 12 weeks, and then it can take six to 12 months and sometimes more, but not, it seems pretty rare to completely recover. But with treatment and with the right support, it seems that most people with postpartum psychosis make a full recovery. No problem.

[00:09:41] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it's just gotta be terrifying.

[00:09:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: Terrifying.

[00:09:43] Jordan Harbinger: Just imagine you temporarily become Josh, your old neighbor with schizophrenia.

[00:09:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yep. Totally.

[00:09:49] Jordan Harbinger: Except, it's because you had a child and the child is maybe the object of your delusions or whatever. It's so intense. Anyway, carry on Gabe.

[00:09:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: A few months later, the medical team overseeing Emma's case decided to bring the baby in. Thinking it would help restart the bonding process and speed up her recovery. Unfortunately, they moved her to a mother and baby ward, prematurely. Relaxing restrictions and observations, despite her not being ready. They even allowed her to take the baby around the hospital grounds, unassisted. Then, shortly before the holidays, a few months ago, Emma fled with the baby to a nearby park and smothered him to death.

[00:10:28] Jordan Harbinger: Gosh, okay. So I've already heard part of this story, and it's — every time I hear it, it's just so disturbing and it's so sad, man.

[00:10:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. It's beyond sad. Like, can't even wrap my head around this, really.

[00:10:41] Jordan Harbinger: There are just no words. I can't even imagine what this woman must have been going through. Because she wanted this kid really bad and then suddenly — I mean, it's just so tragic.

[00:10:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. I don't mean to get ahead of ourselves, but it's really sad to think that she will probably come out of this psychosis at some point.

[00:10:58] Jordan Harbinger: Sure.

[00:10:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: In a few weeks or six months, or who knows, maybe she already has. And then, you just gotta live with what you did while you were sick. It's terrible.

[00:11:05] Jordan Harbinger: I don't know how you come back from this. But, well, we'll get to that.

[00:11:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: We'll get into that.

[00:11:10] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: So he goes on, overwhelmed with remorse, Emma called the police upon realizing what she had done. She broke down in tears as she turned herself in. I gotta say Jordan, that's a fascinating detail. So there was a part of her that understood what she did or that knew it was wrong, or at least that something was not right.

[00:11:28] Jordan Harbinger: Well, that's a meaningful detail and it's hard to know what to make of it. Though, I'm sure at her trial, if this goes to trial, it's gonna turn on whether she was in her right mind or whether she was quote-unquote, "Insane" when she did this.

[00:11:40] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:11:41] Jordan Harbinger: And I think that detail might complicate things. Because if you do something like this and you start talking about UFOs and aliens and transporting yourself to the 4th dimension, they're gonna be like, "Okey dokey." But if you're like, "Oh my God, I killed my baby." Then it's like —

[00:11:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, were you lucid enough to know what you were doing? Exactly.

[00:11:57] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:11:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: So he goes on, she now faces murder charges and the court case is underway. Unfortunately, the media, including usually reliable outlets, has sensationalized the event. Portraying her as a cold, evil killer. While there may be some truth to that, it doesn't capture the full essence of the Emma I know. The media tends to simplify these complex situations without delving into the background of the people involved. I'm now struggling to accept this tragic event. Our entire friend group is grieving, not only this baby, but also the loss of our friend. She's currently refusing prison visits and we all sense that she might never recover from this devastating situation. I don't know how to reconcile the good person I know. With the fact that she's now labeled as a killer. I'm also grappling with the fact that my wife and I are still facing challenges conceiving. This is a baby we would've loved to support, and now his life is lost. Also, until now, I hadn't considered the true dangers of postpartum hormonal issues. There also seems to be a lack of interest in the hospital's oversight policies that could have potentially averted this tragedy. My friend was incredibly sick and far from her best self when she did this. How does someone like Emma come back from such a profound and tragic turn of events? How can someone perceived as a saint, suddenly be labeled a murderer, rather than raising awareness about the complex challenges some women face after childbirth? And how do I make sense of this loss, amid our own struggles to conceive? Signed, Finding It Infeasible To Make Sense of the Unspeakable, But Convinced That There's Something Teachable If reasonable People Looked Past the Merely Perceivable.

[00:13:35] Jordan Harbinger: Oh boy. Well, like I said, this story is truly extraordinary. And I'm just stunned by all of this. The state you have to be in, mentally, to murder your own child, it's just — this is psychosis, right? There's no way an otherwise healthy and loving person would murder her child unless there was something seriously, seriously wrong. Obviously, we can't know what was going through her mind when she did this, but it really does sound like a temporary psychosis that basically turned her into a different person. It's like doing something terrible in a dream, and then you wake up and you find out you actually did that, but you were sleepwalking or something. Obviously, as a parent, all of this just hits very close to home. My heart breaks for this baby who didn't deserve any of this.

[00:14:21] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:21] Jordan Harbinger: And it's hard to really even talk about that. It's just too horrible. And I feel terrible for Emma. This remarkable person who is kind and empathetic and talented, this champion of mental health support, which is sort of a strange irony in all this. And now, she'll have to live with this for the rest of her life, and maybe she will spend a large chunk of that in prison. And of course, I feel terrible for Emma's partner. I mean, what that guy must be going through right now, the shock and grief he must be in. He lost his baby and now, he's basically gonna lose his wife for a couple of decades, maybe? It's just unimaginable. Oh gosh. Okay. These poor people this loss is probably going to define them in part, at least for the rest of their lives. And man, I don't mean to make this about me, of course, in any way. But a story like this makes you so grateful to have a relatively happy and healthy family because my God, Loko can happen.

[00:15:15] So it's a good question. How does somebody like Emma come back from something this tragic? And honestly, I don't know. I don't know if she can. I don't know if she will.

[00:15:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: I also don't know what coming back from something like this means. I mean, there might not be a back to come back to.

[00:15:31] Jordan Harbinger: Right. What happened, happened.

[00:15:33] You can't return to the same life you had before or even the same experience of life. The reality is, you had a baby and now you don't because you did something awful while you were seriously unwell. And you probably aren't gonna have a husband either. I mean, I don't know where this guy is, but that's tough. I would imagine that Emma's gonna have to find a way to accept and make sense of this tragedy in her own way, and find a way to live with the fact that she did something terrible when she was in a highly compromised state. I mean, maybe that's how you live with something like this? You just remind yourself constantly that you are basically not yourself.

[00:16:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. But then you're the same person. You're in the same body. So you're stuck with all the feelings.

[00:16:11] Jordan Harbinger: It's just — it's a nightmare.

[00:16:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: It is. Yeah. So his point about how the media is covering all of this is also interesting. I read a bunch of articles about the story. They didn't quite paint Emma as a cold, evil killer, as our friend described, but they did only focus on the bare facts. Her name, what she did, what she's accused of. They didn't get into her life, her backstory at all.

[00:16:30] Jordan Harbinger: I think that's kind of his point though, right? The media's only talking about what she did. They're not like, "Hey, this person had postpartum psychosis. She was great at music. She had done a lot of work in the mental health community." they're just like, "Yo, I'm — we got a a hundred words more. What are we gonna put in here?"

[00:16:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: Which is a real shame because that's actually the more interesting story, as well as the more humanizing one.

[00:16:48] Jordan Harbinger: Of course. Again, my guess is the media is sleeping on the deeper story. They might not even know about the postpartum psychosis stuff.

[00:16:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: Emma's friends probably know more about her than the journalists because they're in the loop. They're in her life. These reporters, to your point, are probably just reading the police blotter and getting a few quotes and slapping a grabby headline on it, and it is a very grabby headline. And then, they're just moving on because that's the scope of their job.

[00:17:10] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: If there's a more nuanced story to be told, it's gonna have to come from a publication that does deeper stories investigations. And actually wants to get into this whole question of, "Is this person a murderer? Is she a woman who's struggling after childbirth? How accountable do you hold someone like this?" You know, why aren't we talking more about postpartum psychosis as a society? All of that.

[00:17:32] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. It'll be The Atlantic or the New Yorker or whatever, or some true crime docuseries. It is not gonna be writers pumping out five paragraph articles about crazy crime cases for clicks.

[00:17:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: So it's interesting. I googled postpartum psychosis stories. And there are a decent amount of them out there, but they're usually personal essays written by women who have gone through this, which is fascinating. But they're not long articles that dig deep into the whole topic. So, one thing you might want to consider doing is reaching out to some crime reporters at major publications. Also, maybe even some science journalists. And I would tell them, "Hey, I'm so-and-so. I'm a friend of Emma's. Here are a few links to some articles about her case. I think the media is missing the real story here. There's this whole postpartum psychosis element. There's this whole incredible backstory to Emma's life. I would love to see a journalist do right by my friend and actually capture how complex this case is. And I'm happy to share more if you're interested." and if anyone responds, you can hop on the phone with them. You can share some emails. Maybe you could be the person who gets the right reporter to tell the full story.

[00:18:36] Jordan Harbinger: It's actually a great idea. And honestly, it is an incredible story. I feel like the right journalist would bite at that. Maybe you even connect a journalist with Emma's friends and family, maybe even with Emma herself, if anyone's open to talking, of course. I'm guessing though, her lawyer is not letting her talk to the media right now. But who knows? Maybe down the line, she will. Maybe some coverage would actually help her case. I don't know.

[00:18:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: So you're asking another good question. How do you make sense of this loss, amid your own struggles to conceive? And I gotta say, it's so interesting that this tragedy happened while you and your wife are also trying to get pregnant. And I'm really sorry that you guys have been having a hard time. That sucks. And I know that this can be a really intense process. Can be very demoralizing, and I hope things turn around for you guys soon. I can definitely appreciate why it's so hard to watch your friend end her baby's life after trying so hard to get pregnant. And then you turn to each other and you're like, "But we want a baby. I mean, we would've gladly cared for that baby." You know, how can this happen?

[00:19:34] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. That's kind of a punch in the gut, I suppose.

[00:19:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, it just seems so cruel.

[00:19:38] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right? But this is also a narrative that you guys are helping to create, and I get why. These two stories, your fertility journey and Emma's tragedy are happening side by side, so they seem connected. But you're also attaching a lot of meaning to Emma's story because of what you're going through these days. And honestly, how could you not?

[00:19:55] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: But I also think it's important to notice what you guys are bringing to her story. How your own hope, your own sadness, your own grief has a way of cross-pollinating, a little bit, with her story. To the point where, it might be hard to separate your feelings about this tragedy from your feelings about your own fertility challenges. So, when you say, "How do I make sense of this loss, amid our own struggles to conceive?" Well, first of all, I'm not sure that you'll ever really make sense of this loss. Part of what is so upsetting about Emma's story is that there isn't any logic. And there's no coherent logic to what she did, right? This is the logic of psychosis, which is a logic of no logic.

[00:20:35] Jordan Harbinger: Right. It's just sickness. It's chaos.

[00:20:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. It's total mayhem. I mean, you can try to find some explanation for it, but I don't really know if there is any. The only meaning I can find in this whole story is that we, humans, can be very vulnerable, right? Like more vulnerable than we want to admit. And we're at the whim of chemistry and statistics a lot of the time, and we need good people and solid systems around us that can take care of us when we're in trouble. I mean, like you said, there were probably some big flaws in the hospital's handling of Emma's case.

[00:21:06] Jordan Harbinger: Clearly.

[00:21:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: And that might be the one concrete takeaway here. That the way we treat people who are experiencing postpartum psychosis, needs to be a lot better.

[00:21:15] Jordan Harbinger: By the way, that would probably be a great thing to include in a pitch to a journalist. I feel like that's one of the bigger reasons for telling this story. It's kind of a window into the healthcare system and how we treat new mothers and all that. It's kind of shocking they let — they were just like, "Oh, here's your baby, and go ahead and go for a walk." It's like, maybe dip your toes in the water from this person who was like, threatening her own — I don't know.

[00:21:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: A really good article could shine a light on that.

[00:21:37] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: And I bet that would also get a reporter pretty fired up.

[00:21:40] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:21:40] Gabriel Mizrahi: Like there's a deeper purpose to this. It's not just, "Oh, this is so crazy. Somebody snapped and killed their child. There's something bigger here." But that still doesn't explain why Emma did what she did.

[00:21:50] Jordan Harbinger: Right.

[00:21:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: It only explains how she was able to go through with it. So my feeling is, you guys need to separate these two stories and notice your tendency to tie them together, given what you're going through right now. Emma killed her baby while she was psychotic. That's a fact. It's a very tragic fact. You and your wife are struggling to conceive. That's another fact. A very challenging one. And also one that could change one day. Now, if you want to find some connection between these two things, if looking for meaning and that is helpful to you in some way, great. Totally fair. I mean, look, for example, maybe Emma's story gives you an even greater appreciation for life and for being healthy. Maybe it makes you even more certain that you guys want a child and that you guys are gonna be great parents. Maybe the story makes you think about how to surround yourselves with the right support so that if anything like this ever happens to you guys, you're gonna be much better equipped. Although, given the statistics, I really would not stay up at night worrying about that. It's just so rare. But those are a few productive meanings you could create from this story. Less productive meanings are — the world is cruel, the world is unjust. I mean, how could this happen if it caused Emma to kill her child while it won't allow us to conceive? Or how did we not get the chance to adopt her baby if she didn't really want it? I totally understand why those meanings occur, but you guys get to decide what you want to take away from this experience. And whether these two events even belong in the same universe.

[00:23:15] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's a good point, Gabe. First of all, I mean, just to sort of handle the — nobody kills their baby and thinks, "This is a better option than giving it up for adoption." right? This is — there's no logical thought going on with this. We talk a lot on the show about the stories we tell ourselves, the narratives we create, when they're helpful, when they're limiting. And in this case, the tempting narrative, is that what Emma did has some bearing on what our friend and his wife are going through. Because we're meaning-making machines and yada yada, right? Patternicity, I get that. It highlights their struggle, but to your point, we also have to be disciplined about which dots we connect.

[00:23:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. Just because the dots are near each other, doesn't mean that they're necessarily related.

[00:23:53] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Struggling to conceive is hard enough. You don't also need to torture yourself by fixating on how ironic and cruel it was that somebody else hurt their own child, as tempting as that might be. I am so sorry that your friend went through this. That you guys have just have to watch it all unfold. It's truly extraordinary. It's absolutely heartbreaking. Very few people, thank God, will ever go through something like this. But if they do or they know someone who does, or they're married to somebody who does, I hope this story helps them find the support they need to take care of their child and get healthy again. That support exists. Most of these stories do not end in a mother murdering her child. My heart just breaks that Emma's story went a different way.

[00:24:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mine too. And by the way, if anybody's interested, we're gonna link to some of those postpartum psychosis stories in the show notes. They're pretty intense, but they're very eye-opening. And I have to say, they actually gave me a lot of hope that recovery is absolutely possible. Very common. And like Jordan said, most of these stories don't end up in a tragedy like this.

[00:24:53] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Look, I'm with you. I hope this topic gets more coverage because it really is fascinating and it's obviously incredibly important. Jen and I had never heard of this. And when Jen heard about this, she was kind of like, "I've had intrusive thoughts." And I was like, "Really?" And she's like, "Yeah. I mean, they go away. Or you just like, you realize what? Whoa, that's kind of a scary thing I just thought about."

[00:25:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:12] Jordan Harbinger: But imagine if you are in a place where you can't control that.

[00:25:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:16] Jordan Harbinger: That's what that is, essentially.

[00:25:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:25:18] Jordan Harbinger: Whew. Boy, I am still reeling from this one. Gabe, I'm gonna have to shake this off. I literally want to go hug my kids, I think.

[00:25:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: I know.

[00:25:24] Jordan Harbinger: Before we tackle the rest of these questions because it's just — it's getting to me.

[00:25:28] And in good conscience, I really don't think I can make a joke in this ad pivot. Even dark Jordan is not that dark. So stick around for a word from our sponsors and we'll be right back.

[00:25:41] This episode is sponsored in part by BetterHelp. Recently, my parents took the big leap from Michigan to California, aiming to be closer to us and more importantly, the grandkids. But adapting to this new chapter has been quite the challenge for them, especially on the mental health front. Uprooting their lives, moving away from familiar faces in places has not been easy. And fortunately, they found a lifeline in BetterHelp, which has been nothing short of miraculous for them, especially since venturing far from home. My mom doesn't want to drive, you know, she doesn't know the area. She doesn't know the lights in California, even though they're the same as Michigan, but whatever. The process is downright smooth and easy, even for my 80-year-old father. All he had to do was install the BetterHelp App, complete a brief questionnaire detailing his needs, and just like that, he was matched with a therapist from their roster of over 30,000 licensed professionals. What's incredible is the flexibility it offers. If the therapist isn't the right fit, changing to another is simple. It doesn't cost anything extra. Betterhelp has been a major support for them during this transition. Making it easier to navigate the emotional hurdles of moving.

[00:26:33] Jen Harbinger: Become your own soulmate, whether you're looking for one or not. Visit betterhelp.com/jordan today to get 10 percent off your first month. That's betterH-E-L-P.com/jordan.

[00:26:43] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by SimpliSafe. Believe it or not, the FBI reports that most home invasions occur during daylight, which is actually nice. I don't wanna be home for that. Take for example, Jen's dad's buddy, who after withdrawing $4,000 from the bank, was robbed by two men right inside his home. Okay. That one, he had to be home for. Really, really scary, by the way. They tracked him in broad daylight, they forced him to hand over the cash. Shockingly, his house had no security cameras, no security system at the time. Needless to say, he quickly changed that. With spring time extending daylight hours, now is the perfect moment to beef up your home security and SimpliSafe is the solution I trust and endorse. This award-winning system ensures your home is monitored around the clock, gives you peace of mind whether you're out enjoying the sun or you're relaxing indoors. SimpliSafe stands out for its exceptional coverage, utilizing cutting edge technology and offering 24/7 monitoring without the need for a contract, all for less than a dollar a day. It's constantly evolving, featuring live guard protection and smart cameras that allow for real-time intervention. Installation a breeze, whether you DIY or you DI, someone else does it for you. Not sure how to messed with that acronym. Plus, with a 60 day risk-free trial, testing it out is a no-brainer.

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[00:27:58] Jordan Harbinger: Thank you for listening and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers does keep the lights on around here. All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are all in one clickable, searchable place. jordanharbinger.com/deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show.

[00:28:12] And now back to Feedback Friday.

[00:28:16] Okay, next up.

[00:28:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm a 19-year-old in a relationship with a wonderful girl, and we share moments of genuine happiness together. But for the last three years, there's been a lingering issue. I have feelings for another girl. This unrequited love has become a burden and causes me distress. I genuinely care for my current partner and our relationship is built on mutual respect and happiness. But these unresolved feelings for someone else create a conflict within me that is difficult to ignore. I'm torn between the desire to maintain the happiness I have with my current partner and the longing for a love that seems unattainable. It's left me questioning my emotions, values, and the potential impact on both individuals. How would you navigate such a delicate emotional landscape? How can I reconcile these conflicting emotions and make decisions that prioritize the wellbeing of those I care about? Signed, Embrangled and Trying To Untangle This Confusing Triangle.

[00:29:19] Jordan Harbinger: Huh, interesting. Okay. Is it just me or is this letter just sort of weirdly light on details?

[00:29:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: No, it's not just you.

[00:29:25] Jordan Harbinger: Okay.

[00:29:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's sort of bare bones, isn't it?

[00:29:27] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:29:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's pretty why I chose it. I wanted to talk about this with you.

[00:29:30] Jordan Harbinger: Okay.

[00:29:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: What's going on in here? Let's get into it. Yeah.

[00:29:32] Jordan Harbinger: Alright, fine. So I can certainly understand the conflict that you are in. You're not the first young buck to be caught between two does. Am I getting my dear terminology right? Not really a dear guy. Anyway.

[00:29:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: Actually, I think you nailed it.

[00:29:44] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:29:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: Bucks and does. Yeah.

[00:29:44] Jordan Harbinger: Bucks and does. It sounds right to me. Being in a relationship with one person while having feelings for somebody else is very stressful. And it can be confusing, it can bring up a lot of guilt and sadness, and it puts distance between you and your partner, which obviously sucks for both of you. So first of all, if you're having feelings for somebody else, the first thing you need to do is dig into them, and get clear about whether these feelings speak more to this other woman or more to any deficiencies in your current relationship. You said you were with a wonderful girl, and I'm sure what you guys have is nice, obviously, or you wouldn't be feeling this conflict. But you also said that you quote, "Share moments of genuine happiness together." That kind of jumped out at me now. Just moments? It's not an overall pretty consistent, happy vibe? I don't know. I might be reading into that one sentence too much. Maybe you didn't mean that you're only happy in moments? But that does seem to be a clue to how you feel about your girlfriend.

[00:30:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. I mean, when you're in a truly happy relationship, you don't say, "We have moments of genuine happiness." You say, "We're genuinely happy." Right?

[00:30:45] Jordan Harbinger: Right. It's just an interesting way to put it. And hey, maybe there's a language barrier here. Is it possible that English isn't his first language? And you never know how Google translates gonna spin your relationship drama in the Feedback Friday inbox. I'm also a little puzzled by, "Our relationship is built on mutual respect and happiness." I mean, okay, I hope so. What else is it built on or should it be built on? All interesting turns of phrase coming from a guy who has his eye on somebody else. The second thing you need to do, is get clearer about whether you wanna act on these feelings, whether this other woman might share them or could share them. You've really given us precious little to go on here. But reading between the lines, I'm not getting a strong sense that this woman is orbiting you two, just waiting in the wings.

[00:31:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. He said he's longing for a love that seems unattainable.

[00:31:33] Jordan Harbinger: Unattainable. Right. So, I don't know what to make of that. But does it seem unattainable because he is already in a relationship and he is holding himself back or because it would take some effort to pursue this other woman? Or she's like not interested? I don't know.

[00:31:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. That's my question. Is it unattainable because she just doesn't share his feelings and so, he's just left with his longing for her?

[00:31:52] Jordan Harbinger: Right. It's unclear. But I think if they were talking, and he was getting a vibe, that he might've included that in his letter.

[00:31:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:31:58] Jordan Harbinger: My sense is he's over here in this relationship, just lowkey pining for this other woman, and she's way over there, unaware that he even feels that way.

[00:32:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's funny, Jordan. He's asking us how to navigate such a quote-unquote, "Delicate emotional landscape."

[00:32:12] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: But I'm not really getting a good feel for this delicate emotional landscape in his letter.

[00:32:17] Jordan Harbinger: No. I'm getting kind of the opposite. His letter's very factual and it's a little distant.

[00:32:21] Gabriel Mizrahi: It might, to your point, it might just be the way he writes or a language thing, but he strikes me as very kind of formal, very logical. A little abstract.

[00:32:28] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Same. I'm not getting a warm and gooey or super vulnerable from this letter. And I get that this is how human feelings work and our relationship operates like this. And I'm caught between two irreconcilable goods. It's a little Sheldon Cooper, I think. And I'm not trying to be mean, but it's sort of like, analytical.

[00:32:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. It's a Big Bang Theory without any other banging.

[00:32:47] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:32:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: Which is the worst pun I've ever made in my life. But look, all of that is fine. I'm not trying to make you feel bad or anything. It's just hard not to notice that this might be part of your personality or how you're looking at things. And so, this is a little bit of a reach, but my question is, are those qualities playing a role in how you relate to your girlfriend right now? Are they informing how you imagine this other woman might feel about you? Is this part of why you feel this other relationship is unattainable? Because maybe these emotions are a little bit hard to understand or talk about? If any of that fits, this little crisis might be a nice opportunity to get more in touch with your feelings, your girlfriend's feelings, your experience of this conflict that you feel. Honestly, the quality of your relationships, in general, these confusing feelings you have for this other woman in addition to being feelings for her, I think they're also very good data for you.

[00:33:40] Jordan Harbinger: That's exactly right. So my take on situations like this is, if you're having feelings for someone else, then you're probably not in the right relationship. Or you need to do some work to sort through whatever's not working in your current relationship and just work on that. Dude, especially at 19 years old. You're so young, man. And if you're not a hundred percent psyched about the person you're with, now is definitely the time to be exploring different relationships and feelings without tying yourself into knots. You're not 43 with two kids or whatever, and you're like, "I'm questioning my — " you know, come on man. Not to be disrespectful, but you're a kid. Enjoy that part. That's one of the cool things about being a kid. Commitments are just, you know, paper thin, sometimes. In general, I've found that any feelings you have for somebody else while you're in a committed relationship, they usually reveal needs of your own and cracks in the relationship, more than they do virtues in the other person. You could replace that other person with pretty much anybody.

[00:34:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: Very well said. And that's even truer if the other person is not available or does not share your feelings.

[00:34:37] Jordan Harbinger: Right. So either you use them to understand what's going on in your own relationship, or you decide to pursue this other person and see if she might share your feelings. Those are basically your two options. But if you do pursue her, I highly recommend that you end your current relationship first. It's the right thing to do. And that's one way to prioritize the wellbeing of those you care about, as you said. Even though breaking up would probably be quite sad. But again, if you go that route, please make sure it's because you're realizing that this isn't the right relationship, not just because you wanna be with this other specific person or try that.

[00:35:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: Who might not be available, anyway.

[00:35:12] Jordan Harbinger: Right.

[00:35:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly. You do have a third option here, which is to sit with these feelings for a little while, figure out why they're so compelling, whether they're appropriate, whether you have them for somebody who's available and interested. And if the answer is no, then the next step is to learn how to put those feelings to bed, whether you stay with your girlfriend or not.

[00:35:28] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it's a good point. Putting certain feelings to bed is also an important process, sometimes. And that might be part of making himself more available to his girlfriend, if that's part of the gap in their relationship. But again, like I said, he's 19. He's learning all this stuff for the first time. It's okay to be confused. It's okay to be awkward. It's okay to not handle this perfectly. This is how you learn. Just be kind, thoughtful, and honest along the way, with yourself and with everyone involved. And good luck.

[00:35:55] You can reach us, friday@jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job quite a bit easier. If you just found out your sister slept with your boyfriend before you got together. You're wondering whether to support a plea deal for your brother-in-law's extortionist, or you've just discovered that your tax evading husband on probation has been hiding guns in the walls of your home. Fascinating stuff from last week.

[00:36:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: Talk about it.

[00:36:18] Jordan Harbinger: I keep thinking about that one. Hit us up, friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous.

[00:36:24] Okay, what's next?

[00:36:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. Over the past year, my bond with my 14-year-old niece has really developed. Her mother, my sister, has faced significant challenges in her life. Including a dangerous and abusive relationship with her daughter's father. That relationship ended dramatically when he assaulted her and threatened her life. As a result, my sister struggles with unresolved issues, which have caused her to self isolate and struggle with trust. Her vulnerability also makes her prone to believing in conspiracy theories. I care deeply for my sister, but interacting with her requires a careful approach. When she discusses unconventional ideas, I listen, but I also share my perspective. Explaining calmly why I find certain ideas implausible. She usually accepts this without resistance, but she's overly suspicious and often jumps to conclusions. Almost as if she believes the world is against her. Recently, my niece confided in me, very upset about something my sister told her. That her father, if given a chance, would sexually abuse her.

[00:37:31] Jordan Harbinger: Mmm. Okay. Interesting. So obviously concerning. But also, a complicated piece of information to get from a source like this.

[00:37:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Hard to know how much stock to put in that, given the source. So she goes on, this has left my niece extremely anxious and suspicious. Her father is now seeking overnight visits, despite having to drive six hours for court approved visits once a week, which seems to be causing my sister great distress. She also mentioned that her ex's father accompanies him on these visits, as he doesn't trust his son with his daughter either. My sister also says that all of the gifts her ex buys their daughter, like an iPhone and an iPad, is to love-bomb her. The truth of the situation is unclear to me. I've heard troubling accounts about the father from my sister, and I don't think she's lying, but sometimes I question the accuracy of her interpretations. So does my niece, who's been sharing how disturbed she feels hearing all of this from her mother. I'm torn now between believing my sister's paranoid tendencies, which might be valid and the possibility of the unthinkable here. I've been suggesting family therapy, a new concept for them, and my sister is somewhat receptive to it.

[00:38:42] Should my sister be telling her daughter this? How can I know if what she's saying about her father is true? And how can I reassure my niece, when she's troubled by these thoughts during her weekly visits with her dad? Signed, Sizing Up My Sis When Her Ideas Are Hit or Miss, But Not Wanting To Be Remiss If I Dismiss Her Legit Fit About the Fact That Her Ex Is the Pits.

[00:39:04] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Yeah, this is a tricky sitch. That might be the longest sign off you've ever had, by the way.

[00:39:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. But you also kind of added to It by saying sitch.

[00:39:11] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's true. It was like kind of an accident.

[00:39:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: It goes on for days.

[00:39:15] Jordan Harbinger: So if this thing about your niece's father is true, obviously it's a huge concern. He does have a track record of being dangerous and abusive, so this fear is not completely outlandish on its face. On the other hand, your sister's a bit of an unreliable narrator, right? She's prone to kooky ideas, faulty logic, jumping to weird conclusions, I guess you could say. So it's really hard to know how seriously to take this claim. And that obviously puts you in a very tough situation, as well as your niece. And I feel for you. We wanna run all this by an expert. So we reached out to the one and only, Dr. Erin Margolis, clinical psychologist and friend of the show.

[00:39:50] Soundbite: I'm also known to the people who know me the best as the f*cking doctor. [Analyze This - Ben Sobel]

[00:39:56] Jordan Harbinger: Margolis confirmed that this is indeed a sad and scary situation, but it's also a confusing one. So we started by asking her, should your sister be telling her daughter that her dad might abuse her? And Dr. Margolis was honest with us. She said she didn't know. And she felt she'd need a lot more context to weigh in on that. More information about the father, about your sister, about your niece, about all their history together. But she did say that your niece's personality plays a big role here. If she's an emotionally mature 14-year-old, that's far different. From say, a developmentally disabled 14-year-old. Her vulnerability would be different. Her ability to understand the situation with her father and potentially defend herself would be different. Her capacity to sit with this information and form her own conclusions would be different. But the reality is, your niece has already been told this thing about her father. So it's like, what are you gonna do? Tell your sister not to tell her daughter?

[00:40:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:40:51] Jordan Harbinger: Tell your niece to just forget about what she heard about her dad? That is not gonna change anything, at this point. You also can't know for sure whether what your sister said about her ex is even true, and that's really frustrating. And it's gotta make you feel quite powerless here. So Dr. Margolis felt the better question might be, "What was the function of your sister telling your niece this thing about her dad?" what I'm wondering is, was it really to protect her from a guy who has a history of violence? Or is this another one of your sisters questionable slash paranoid slash conspiratorial opinions, And she's trying to achieve something here. For example, is she painting herself as the better parent? The safer parent? Is she trying to get back at her ex-husband for what he did to her? Is she trying to sabotage the weekly visits? Is she trying to feel more secure or empowered by being, you know, quote-unquote "In the know" about certain difficult facts or whatever. Which by the way, very common with conspiratorial thinkers. I get it.

[00:41:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, that's a good point. Right. Yeah, the question is, is this a real legitimate piece of information that she is highlighting to protect her daughter, or is this perhaps, some kind of tactic to secure her daughter's loyalty and possibly, turn her against her father or something like that?

[00:42:05] Jordan Harbinger: Right. It could be. Which would be somewhat understandable, given how terribly this guy treated the mom when they were together.

[00:42:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:42:11] Jordan Harbinger: I mean, the dude does not sound like a healthier, safe person, but that also doesn't mean he's a daughter molester either.

[00:42:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly, right. That's true. Even if he isn't incapable of this really terrible thing that mom is afraid of. But you know, I hold this alongside that other detail that when the dad buys his daughter something, the mom thinks it's love-bombing. I mean. It's possible that it is. It's also possible that he's just buying his daughter a gift.

[00:42:35] Jordan Harbinger: Especially because he doesn't live with them anymore. Who knows? The problem is, our friend's sister has a very specific lens through which she interprets things, right? Including, and especially, her ex's behavior. And again, I can appreciate why. I am not trying to defend this guy.

[00:42:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:42:49] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. This dude assaulted and threatened to kill her. He's a POS, so he — she's not completely wrong for having her guard up. But —

[00:42:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: But her anger toward him, her fear, that might be coloring. Otherwise, relatively innocent aspects of his relationship with his daughter.

[00:43:04] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. And separating all of that out is really hard.

[00:43:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: There's something similar going on with the fact that the grandfather tags along for their visits. The mother thinks that that's confirmation that the grandfather doesn't trust his son around his daughter. But he might just be tagging along because he wants to see his granddaughter.

[00:43:19] Jordan Harbinger: That was kind of my thought. I mean, did he — here's the thing, did he actually say that to the sister? Did he literally go, "Look, I'm concerned about Tim, okay? I don't like the idea of him being alone with Natalie. I'm gonna tag along, to keep an eye on things so you don't have to worry."

[00:43:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:43:33] Jordan Harbinger: Or was he just like, "Eh, it's a long drive for Tim, and I'd love to see Natalie too. So I'm gonna come along if that's all right." and the mom's like, "See? Even his own father doesn't trust him. That's why he's — " So, look, it's so hard to know how much of this is the mom's spinning a yarn and how much this is grounded in actual evidence. And I will say, normally, I would just never believe the abuser's version of events because these people are, you know, kind of crappy. But the mom has this weird, sort of believing in all kinds of weird, other dumb crap. So it's like, oh, you've really shot your credibility in the foot, big time.

[00:44:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: We're back to that theme of competing narratives.

[00:44:09] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:44:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: Unreliable narrators and how to reconcile different versions of the same story. It's so tricky. Also, we're back to the theme of which stories we choose to tell.

[00:44:17] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: And which ones we choose to believe. So, how can you reassure your niece when she's troubled by these thoughts about her dad? Well, Dr. Margolis wasn't sure that you can. Because again, the cat is already out of the bag. Her mom has already said this thing to her. You just don't know how dangerous her father truly is. You also don't know whether anything you say is actually going to reassure your niece at this point. So Dr. Margolis take was that, it's probably more important to appreciate what your niece thinks about all of this. She was curious to know. Has your niece ever said that she feels uncomfortable or in danger when she's around her dad? Has he said anything or done anything that's made her feel unsafe? Does having your grandfather at these visits make her feel better? Your niece's experience of all of this, that's a really important gauge. If she says, "No, my dad actually doesn't make me feel that way at all. It's actually nice and normal when we hang out." Then maybe, you can help her trust her instincts and stay connected to them alongside these troubling thoughts and perhaps tell her mom. "Mom, I appreciate your concern, but I'm not worried about dad and I don't feel unsafe." on the other hand, if she says, "Actually, you know, I do kind of feel weird around him, and sometimes he says inappropriate stuff. He makes weird jokes." Or "He looks at me in a weird way." Or "I'm so glad grandpa's there because I don't like being alone with dad." Anything like that. Then I would encourage your niece to trust her gut and speak up about whether she wants to see her dad and if she does see him, under what conditions?

[00:45:44] Dr. Margolis big insight was that, the real question you're probably asking here is, how do I not feel so powerless in this situation? Because when we feel powerless or we feel outta control, we often want to take action, right? We want to do something. Something concrete. Something immediate. Something decisive. But oftentimes, we don't realize that just listening to somebody, being there for them, providing emotional support, that's also doing something. And it's doing something very important. Her take was that the most important thing you can do for your niece, is to continue to just be there for her. And let her know that if anything ever happens, you are going to be her advocate. You're gonna be her protector. You're gonna be her friend. And part of that is, gathering this information from her. I mean, she's a more reliable source. And frankly, a more relevant source of information here. This special bond that you have with her is wonderful. I mean, she came to you with this information. So you're in a great position to take that in and say, "I hear you. So what do you think? How do you feel? And what do you want?" And then to decide what to do, if anything.

[00:46:44] Jordan Harbinger: Agreed. But look, hey, if you find out that her father has done something to his daughter, or he has a history of hurting people in this way, especially kids, yeah, you intervene more strongly. You call your sister, you tell her you have your niece. Come and stay with you, if she needs to. You call the cops. You call CPS. You report this guy. Whether or not anything has already happened to your niece. But right now, based on what you shared, nothing has happened. And I don't wanna be that guy who's like, "Yeah, wait till somebody gets molested or assaulted before you do any — "

[00:47:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: Sure.

[00:47:10] Jordan Harbinger: I mean, that's not what I'm saying here.

[00:47:12] There just doesn't seem to be a history of any sexual abuse and it just doesn't sound like you have compelling evidence that this would likely happen. It almost sounds like, your sister read some crap on the internet and was like, "Oh, people who do this one thing can also do this other thing." And it's like, dot, dot, dot or invisible dot, invisible dot, non-existent dot, connected. "He's gonna attack my daughter." I mean, it's just — I understand why she's concerned, but is it credible?

[00:47:36] Dr. Margolis also pointed out that your niece's feelings would probably play a role in any custody decisions between her parents. She's under 18, so a court doesn't necessarily have to do what she wants, of course. But she is old enough, that a court would probably take her feelings into consideration when deciding which parents she lives with, whether she gets to see her dad, how often, what the conditions are. So being able to articulate her feelings, making sure the adults in her life are attuned to them, Dr. Margolis said that that's really important. So that's how you can help the most right now and gather the data you need to decide whether you should intervene more strongly. By the way, your niece is very lucky to have you looking out for her, especially with parents like these. Ugh, sending you both a hug. Wishing you all the best.

[00:48:18] And big thanks to Dr. Margolis for her wisdom and advice. Dr. Margolis is seeing patients in Los Angeles and virtually throughout California. You can learn more about her and her approach at drerinmargolis.com.

[00:48:29] You know what's a great way to buy your child's love, Gabriel? The amazing products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

[00:48:38] This episode is sponsored in part by NetSuite.

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[00:50:27] Jen Harbinger: Right now, download NetSuite's popular KPI Checklist. Designed to give you consistently excellent performance, absolutely free at netsuite.com/jordan. That's netsuite.com/jordan. To get your own KPI Checklist, netsuite.com/jordan.

[00:50:41] Jordan Harbinger: If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and you found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment, and support our amazing sponsors. All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are all searchable and clickable at jordanharbinger.com/deals. Or you can email me, Jordan@jordanharbinger.com. Hey, if you're lazy, you can't remember the name of the sponsor, I'll happily dig up that code for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show.

[00:51:08] Alright, now back to Feedback Friday.

[00:51:12] What's next?

[00:51:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hello, Jordan and Gabe. I recently got a huge opportunity at work. I've been tapped to be the lead consulting architect for a very cool project for a Fortune 10 company. This is hands down, the most interesting and important project I've ever gotten to work on.

[00:51:28] Jordan Harbinger: Well, that's super exciting. Well done, man.

[00:51:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: The problem is that, I'm now drowning in non-disclosure agreements, NDAs. We aren't even allowed to use the company's real name on internal communications. I can't talk about the nature of the project, who it's for or what I do, as part of it. I've been trying over the last year and a half to focus on networking and being more authentic. It's changed my life for the better, but this exciting work development is gonna make that complicated. How can I still be authentic in my relationship building when I'm not allowed to talk about one of the biggest aspects of my life, as dictated by a hyperlitigious, mega corporation? Signed, A Clandestine Consultant Attempting To Comport Candidly.

[00:52:09] Jordan Harbinger: What? Verizon isn't gonna allow you to talk about their new cellular towers in Afghanistan? What a drag, man. No, I'm playing. He didn't tell us —

[00:52:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: That wasn't in the letter. No.

[00:52:16] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, he didn't tell us that either. Just for clarity here. So it's a good question. Tons of people deal with this challenge. Whether they work in government or they have a security clearance. Or they're working for a stealth startup and they need to protect certain information. It's a little tricky, but honestly, this doesn't need to be a huge obstacle.

[00:52:35] We wanted to talk to somebody who's had a lot of experience networking while dealing with NDAs. So we reached out to a buddy of ours, a former senior official on the National Security Council at the White House, who now works in the biotech world. He, of course, asked to stay anonymous, which is kind of perfect in a segment about how to talk about your work without talking about your work. So the first thing our friend said was, go read the NDA in detail. Figure out how long the term is, what the scope of it is, how much it really constrains you. Maybe it's only a year, and then you can talk about your work. Fine. Maybe you can talk about the general work without going into the details. I know you said they're strict, but in what ways are they strict? Our friend's take is, even if you can't talk about what you're doing or who you're doing it for, you can almost always still talk about your skills, your general experience. So if you're a solutions architect or an engineer or whatever, you can talk about what programming languages you use, the kinds of analysis you're doing, the general hardware you're working with, the project management that goes into your job. Obviously, you can't say I'm working on a new AI solution for Google that's gonna write people's emails for them before they even ask. I don't know. But you can say, I'm working with a Fortune 10 company to design a cool new product. I'm using Python. I'm architecting the whole backend. I'm managing X people to do Y work, whatever it is. Our friend said that he knows, you know, literal CIA officers who, of course, are not allowed to talk about their work, but they can still talk about their skills in interviews. They can still write their resumes with the CIA's approval. They can still talk about their knowledge, their leadership. So in his view, you're probably being overly conservative about this. To quote him here, "Nobody really cares." No matter how secretive you think things are, they're usually not that secretive. And that's coming from a guy who was, yeah, literally in the room for some truly high level and terrifying-ish at the highest levels of government. So, I really wouldn't sweat this too much, man. And also, nobody cares that much where you work. They care about the problems you are solving, whether you have technical chops, whether you're reliable. Where you're doing this work is secondary. Fortune 10 company or Fortune 50 Company, or just massive corporation you've definitely heard of. That kind of says it all. And if you're truly concerned, book a 15-minute consult with a lawyer, have him weigh in on your NDA. They'll tell you what you can and cannot say, and then you can sleep at night.

[00:54:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I agree. I think he's being overly cautious here. More importantly, I'm not sure that these NDAs really have much bearing on whether you are authentic with people.

[00:55:02] I know you wanna be open, you don't wanna be cagey. You don't wanna have to tell a whole story to cover up what you do. I get it. But there's a way to be discreet and still be authentic. You can also just come right out and say, "Well, my client is super protective, kind of paranoid, and they made us sign all these NDAs. So I want to be respectful of that. But yeah, basically, I'm the lead consulting architect for a really big company, and I'm helping them build this really cool new product that's gonna make their users lives a whole lot easier." And then, just maybe, you give them more information, if they even ask. If you can't be authentic by being totally transparent, then I would just be transparent about the fact that you can't be totally transparent because in this case, that's what's authentic.

[00:55:43] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. Just call it out rather than trying to hide the ball.

[00:55:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: But also, to quote our friend here again, "Oversharing about your work, that doesn't make you authentic either." so keep that in mind too.

[00:55:54] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that was also a great point. And again, I'm just not convinced that these NDAs need to dictate his authenticity. They only dictate how he talks about his work. And even then, they might not hold him back in the ways that really count. And hey, congrats on the new gig. I hope you do allow yourself to brag about this new gig safely because it sounds very cool. And break a leg, as long as that's not also prohibited by your NDA.

[00:56:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: Can you imagine they're like, "Do not snowboard. Because you're not allowed to break any bones for the next 18 months because we need you to deliver our new AI tool. Thank you. Goodbye."

[00:56:25] Jordan Harbinger: That's right. Yeah. And you can't do that sitting down or something.

[00:56:28] All right. Next up.

[00:56:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: Alright. So, you guys probably remember that a couple months ago, we took a letter from a woman whose psychiatrist, tried to start a sexual relationship with her.

[00:56:40] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Classy Dr. Skeezy McCreepystein.

[00:56:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's the one. The one and only. The guy who apparently was writing a lot more than just prescriptions.

[00:56:49] So just to remind everybody, our friend wrote in and she shared that, she had this history of people pleasing. She had a history of relationships with older men in positions of power, which apparently this doctor knew about. And she had very graphic emails from him that were extremely incriminating.

[00:57:05] Jordan Harbinger: I just have to say, what a slime bucket. Again, "Oh, you have problems saying no to men in positions of power? Well, here's what I think you should do. Take off all your clothes and send me some nudes." I mean, what an actual, just horrible guy. Anyway, so she was wondering whether to report him to the board or just let it go and move on because he's old, he's gonna retire soon.

[00:57:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's right. And also because she didn't know if she had the energy to dredge the whole horrible experience up again. So we gave her a few thoughts with Dr. Erin Margolis help, and we told her that whatever she decided to do was fair. You know, if she wanted to report him, that's fair. And there were some good reasons to do that. And if she wanted to process this in her own way and leave it in the past, that was also fair.

[00:57:45] So she reached out to us again and she wrote — Hi guys. Your response to my question was very helpful. I feel like a lot of times I have your voices in my head when I'm thinking through things. But this time, I actually needed to hear your advice out loud.

[00:58:00] Jordan Harbinger: Sorry to interrupt, Gabe. But this is so funny. What do our voices sound like in a listener's head? Like, are we actually in there talking to you? I always wonder this.

[00:58:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I like to think so. I like to think that before somebody does something totally reckless, they hear us going, "Well, first of all, I totally understand why you would wanna run your boyfriend over in your car, twice. But you know, I got to tell ya."

[00:58:21] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. "But I got to tell ya, not a great idea, Linda. Time to go to therapy. betterhelp.com/jordan. Because if you're hearing our voices in your head, the least you can do, is hear our promo codes from our sponsors as well."

[00:58:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, exactly. "Signed, The Voices in Your Head Stopping You From Having Your Rights Read Because Your Boyfriend's Dead." How about that?

[00:58:42] Jordan Harbinger: Not bad. Did you just freestyle that?

[00:58:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, dude. Off the dome, son.

[00:58:46] Jordan Harbinger: Not bad, man. The sign off king over here. Anyway, I'm sorry to jump in. I'm just very touched that you have us, of running program, of running a Chat GP — Gabe GPT in your head. That's just so funny to me and awesome.

[00:58:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: I hope the sound quality is as good in your head as it is on the actual show.

[00:59:01] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Hey, we got a little bit of room noise. Jays can't edit your brainwaves. Not yet, anyway.

[00:59:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, not yet. But we're definitely heading in that direction.

[00:59:08] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:59:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: So she goes on, before, I had two competing and ambivalent beliefs. The first belief was, that reporting would only be bad and threatening for me. And the second belief was, that I should do this for society? Hashtag me too, girl power. I hadn't considered that reporting could benefit me in any way. To be honest, I'm still not sure that it will, but I figured that just because one of those beliefs was associated with very strong, negative emotions, that didn't make it more right for me.

[00:59:40] Jordan Harbinger: Man, this is such a great insight. Not just recognizing that you had this binary way of thinking, but this idea that just because a belief is associated with strong negative feelings, that doesn't necessarily make it right.

[00:59:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: Totally, yeah. It just makes it more compelling sometimes.

[00:59:55] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:59:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: Or more charged.

[00:59:56] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. But if you unpack a belief and you figure out why those negative feelings exist around it, whether it's fear or shame, or just a vague unease, and then figure out what those feelings are trying to tell you, what function they're serving, then you're in a much better position to go, "Hmm, is this belief actually true? Do I actually need to hold it?" Which sounds like exactly what you did. So, hey, well done.

[01:00:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: So awesome. So she goes on, I do have these nagging feelings that what my psychiatrist did wasn't quote-unquote, "Bad enough for nebulous punishment." Probably, because it happened to me, whereas I would feel more strongly if it happened to a friend of mine. Yeah. Working on that in therapy. Well, by the way, very common what you just described. I think most of us are like that to some degree. I think it can be hard to measure how bad something is when we're the one going through it.

[01:00:48] Jordan Harbinger: Right. It's classic, can't read the label from inside the jar situation.

[01:00:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[01:00:52] Jordan Harbinger: I think that's a great way to get clarity on something like this. You think, "Should I be mad about this?" Okay. Well, how would it feel if this happened to your best friend or your partner or your child?

[01:01:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. Good litmus test. So she goes on, but it did feel better to know that reporting him wouldn't automatically result in the worst-case scenario. So after hearing your advice, I wrote up the complaint and mailed it in.

[01:01:17] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Congratulations. That's huge. So look, we supported you either way, you know that. But the facts of your story were so stark and so disturbing that I was like, "Oh gosh. This guy has to be held accountable."

[01:01:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[01:01:27] Jordan Harbinger: And I do think, there are significant upsides to reporting. Namely, first of all, you're protecting other patients from this creep. But it also took a lot of courage on your part. So I'm proud of you for going through with it. It seems like you stretched yourself a little bit and hopefully feel good about that.

[01:01:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: One unexpected benefit to having made the decision is, the sudden silence in my head.

[01:01:47] Jordan Harbinger: Mmm.

[01:01:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't have to think about it anymore. The cycle of questions — should I? Will I? That's gone. And knowing that I won't have the question, "Should I have done this? Floating around, indefinitely, is a huge relief. Yeah. I really get that. Sometimes the best part of making a decision is just having made a decision. You know, either way, something will come out of it. But not doing anything at all, can create an open loop in your life that sometimes can eat away at you.

[01:02:15] Jordan Harbinger: She took a stance. There's real power in that. There's also a lot of relief, right? That I think that's great.

[01:02:21] Gabriel Mizrahi: My understanding, was that it could take up to 18 months to hear back from the Board of Physicians in my state.

[01:02:25] Jordan Harbinger: Wow.

[01:02:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: If I heard it all. But the board contacted me less than two weeks after I submitted and I went in for an in-person interview days later.

[01:02:34] Jordan Harbinger: Wow.

[01:02:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: So crazy.

[01:02:35] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. That's so fast. The board of physicians is either super on top of it or they were like, "Oh my goodness. We need to jump on this immediately. This is terrible."

[01:02:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm shocked that they move so quickly, but this is really encouraging. So she goes on, it was almost two hours, and while the interviewers were kind, it was probably the most humiliating thing I've gone through. The interview was such a destabilizing experience, partly, because they asked so many detailed questions. And so many of my responses ended up being, "I don't remember, or I can't remember if this happened in the first meeting or in the second meeting." yeah. By the way, I can also understand why that threw you off a little bit. I'm glad that these investigators were kind, but their job is to take you seriously while also giving this guy a fair shake. So I'm sure that they had to be pretty rigorous. It's gotta be so hard to remember an experience like this in detail, so I'm sure a lot of people in your shoes end up answering questions like that. So I would not beat yourself up for any of that.

[01:03:33] Jordan Harbinger: This is why I'm always banging on about document, document, document. Because our memory is obviously far from perfect. We remember things in a unique way. Time passes. The memories degrade or they change.

[01:03:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, especially in a traumatic situation like this.

[01:03:46] Jordan Harbinger: Definitely. When your shrink is hitting on you, your brain is not thinking like, "Okay, I'm gonna remember every word he said verbatim, and the date he said it and how he said it, and the order that this was, all these events went down, and what color clothes he was wearing." It's going, "Holy crap. Is my shrink hitting on me right now? Wait, hold on, hold on, hold on. I might have to run away. I might have to fight 'em off. It was this — what is, what is happening?" So your memories are being recorded in a very specific way. They're never gonna be perfect because that's not what the situation, the immediate situation requires.

[01:04:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: Plus, this was not one event, like a car accident. This was multiple conversations and multiple emails from the sound of it. So the timeline is even harder to track.

[01:04:22] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. So give yourself some grace there. But this is a great reminder for anyone going through anything, the details of which they might have to refer back to or share with somebody else. Write 'em down, note the date, the time, who was there, all of that. Even if it's just bullet points, that'll make everything so much easier.

[01:04:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: If I didn't have hundreds of written communications from the psychiatrist, I probably would've felt terrible about the interview. If this were a he said, she said situation, I'm not sure how convincing my narrative would've been. It really made me feel even more empathy for people who go through these types of investigations without other evidence. Yeah, dude. This guy buried himself by hitting on you over email. I mean, what a bonehead move from a doctor.

[01:05:04] Jordan Harbinger: This guy is really a dumb ass. He is the dumbest skeezeball in medical history. Also, hundreds of written communications?

[01:05:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hundreds.

[01:05:11] Jordan Harbinger: When she first wrote in, I thought it was like, "Okay, he sent me a creepy email. After one or or two." This guy was writing you hundreds of emails. This guy is not right in the head. He deserves to be investigated, for sure, no doubt about it. But also, what an idiot. What an absolute moron.

[01:05:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: It was not a pleasant experience, but I'm pretty sure that's it for my part, which is a huge relief. The board has since requested my medical records from my therapist and primary doctors, so they are moving forward and taking it seriously. Signed, No Longer In Shock Because I Finally Talked About This Pervy Old Doc.

[01:05:44] Jordan Harbinger: What if her medical records have like, drawings of her on them from the therapist or something like —

[01:05:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh my God.

[01:05:48] Jordan Harbinger: There's no text here. It's just a lot of really obscene drawings that he made, while you were talking about your trauma.

[01:05:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: Creepy limericks and little sketches and drafts of the horrible emails he would send her later. That would be so weird.

[01:06:01] Jordan Harbinger: This is incredible, man. I don't really have a ton to add here, so I just wanted to share this letter with you guys because I think it's a great outcome in a really disturbing story. And I'm sure, at least a few of you were invested in our friend here as we were. I also think this story is a great reminder of the very significant upsides to owning your story and speaking up when somebody does something objectively wrong, especially somebody in a position of power with a strong ethical obligation like a doctor. It can be so daunting and stressful and sometimes, embarrassing to recount the details of an experience like this. And I really do get why people hesitate or just decide like, "Nah, it's not worth it." But look at what happened with our friend here. She reclaimed her agency in a very disempowering situation. She held an unethical doctor accountable. She helped uphold the standards of the profession.

[01:06:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: She potentially protected other women, sick patients from going through something similar.

[01:06:53] Jordan Harbinger: Yes. And she resolved this debilitating conflict about whether to speak up about it or just let it go, which sounds very liberating, right? She said the silence in her head. And I think — I just think it's tremendous. And I'm also very heartened by the Board of Physicians' response here. It gives me a lot of hope for these agencies. Sometimes, they can be hopelessly inefficient or hot messes, but this one actually sounds super responsive and responsible. And I just think, there are some excellent ideas in here for anybody going through any traumatic situation.

[01:07:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: I agree. Thank you again, by the way, for sharing so much of your life with us. I gotta say, I'm especially moved by the things she said about us being in her head. No, I'm just kidding. About the things she said about not recognizing how bad something is when it happens to us. But if the same thing happened to somebody we know, we would probably be horrified. I think there's so much to talk about in there.

[01:07:39] Jordan Harbinger: I agree. I

[01:07:40] think that's fascinating, isn't it? There's something about being in our own experience that sometimes, I don't know, miscalibrates.

[01:07:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[01:07:46] Jordan Harbinger: Our sense of how serious something is, when it happens to us. Or maybe we often don't think we deserve compassion or protection. But when something bad happens to someone else, it's easier to go, "Oh, that is not cool, whatsoever. I am sorry, someone's gotta step in here." There are plenty of people that would never defend themselves, but would absolutely defend their friends or family.

[01:08:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, it can be very vulnerable to say something bad happened to me and I need help. I think that makes it hard for a lot of people to speak up.

[01:08:13] You know, it's so crazy. I just remembered. So years ago, I have a friend who was inappropriately touched by her OBGYN, in an appointment. She went to an routine appointment, he touched her, she was like, "Oh, that was weird." But she kind of ignored it and brushed it under the rug because apparently, she was kind of going through a lot in her life and she didn't really register it as an actual assault. She just thought it was kind of, you know, weird. That's how she put it. She was like, it was just weird. Also, the guy in question, was a very well respected doctor, and she trusted him and there was also a nurse in the room. So there was a lot going on in this story.

[01:08:47] Jordan Harbinger: What the heck?

[01:08:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: But then years later, someone got in touch with her and told her that this doctor did this to tons of other people. And suddenly my friend realized that it wasn't just weird. It was, you know, like an actual —

[01:09:00] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[01:09:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: It was an assault. And suddenly, she was asking herself like, "Why was it so hard for me to recognize what he did as abuse at the time?" And as it happens, my friend had a very traumatic childhood and nobody really validated her feelings or looked out for her when she was a kid. And so, it's very hard for her to speak up when she's hurt or when she's compromised now, as an adult. In fact, this whole experience I'm telling you about, helped her realize that she really struggled with self-worth and the right to even own her experience and to tell other people, "Hey, this terrible thing happened to me and I kind of like need to talk about her. I need to do something about it." So, she discounted this memory for years and almost in a weird way, like borderline repressed the memory, until somebody else helped her see that what this doctor did was objectively wrong and damaging.

[01:09:47] Jordan Harbinger: Holy smokes. That's so sad. But yeah, makes total sense. And I think it's quite interesting. Again, thank you for sharing all this with us. We're super proud of you. We hope the investigation goes smoothly, and I hope you find the resolution and justice that you're looking for. This psychiatrist, oh man, I think he's gonna get the book thrown at him. I mean, this guy's gonna end up retiring immediately, if not, more. I don't even know. He might retire and like, lose his license at the same time. But look, that's what happens when you treat your practice, like it's your own fricking Bumble account or whatever. He really did bring this on himself and is just a creep. Or I don't know, is this a lonely old man who just completely abandoned his ethics in treating his patients? Either way, this is not okay. And we're sending you a big hug, as always, definitely a consensual hug, and we're wishing you all the best.

[01:10:34] Hope y'all enjoyed the show. I wanna thank everybody who wrote in and everybody who listened. Thank you so much. Don't forget about Six-Minute Networking over at sixminutenetworking.com. And if you haven't signed up yet, check out our relaunch newsletter for the show. It's called Wee Bit Wiser. It's a bite-sized gem from a past episode from us to you, delivered right to your inbox once a week. So if you wanna keep up with the wisdom from our 900 plus episodes and apply it to your life, I invite you to come and check it out. And you can sign up at jordanharbinger.com/news. Show notes and transcripts on the website at jordanharbinger.com. Advertisers, discounts, ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com/deals. I am Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn, Gabe's on Instagram @gabrielmizrahi, or on Twitter @GabeMizrahi.

[01:11:18] This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Dr. Margolis input, well, she's a real doctor, but it's general psychological information based on research and clinical experience. It's intended to be general and informational in nature. It does not represent or indicate and establish clinical or professional relationship with those inquiring for guidance. And remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. And if you found this episode useful, please go ahead and share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learned, and we'll see you next time.

[01:12:04] You are about to hear a preview of The Jordan Harbinger Show with Amanda Catarzi, who was raised in a cult and later, sex and labor trafficked.

[01:12:12] Amanda Catarzi: The women were trained to be insanely submissive, like you could never say no to any man. And then, the men were trained in a very military way. These people are well armed and well-trained, and it's a whole group that thinks that the world is evil and they need to repopulate the world with their people to bring the kingdom of God. When you turn 13 in that culture, you're an adult. So to be 13 years old, being courted by men twice my age, three times my age, to see if I would make a good wife, it was just kind of outrageous. So I moved to California to go to school and I start training MMA. And my trafficker was there. He was actually one of my boxing coaches. Then he's like, you know, I like you, and so now we're dating. So this is my first adult relationship. He's twice my age at this point. And then, he would always take me up to his cabin on the mountain, which was really far away from everybody else. No phone service, isolation, and it was on a Native American reservation. So whatever they wanted to do to me, they could. Oops, you accidentally got gang raped. That was very common of going to go train, and then all of a sudden, now that you've fought 12 rounds, now you're going to be raped. A girl ran a red light and T-boned my truck. So I pull out my phone and I text my trafficker and I say, "Hey, I almost just died in car accident." and he said, "Is your face f*cked up?" And I'm like, no. And he said, "Well, you're still fuckable then." Something isn't right here. This isn't who I want to be. This isn't what I want. And it was like, I was coming out of water. I had this moment of clarity and I knew something wasn't right, and I knew this wasn't what I wanted. And I knew I needed to act fast, in order to get out of that situation, because I knew I'd get sucked back in.

[01:14:09] Jordan Harbinger: To hear how she escaped her dire situation, check out episode 631 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.

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