On this Feedback Friday, Gabe relays the tragic story of a paranoid schizophrenic neighbor that illustrates just how destabilizing unchecked mental illness can be for family members, friends, neighbors, and the patients themselves.
And in case you didn’t already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at firstname.lastname@example.org. Now let’s dive in!
On This Week’s Feedback Friday, We Discuss:
- Gabe relays the tragic story of a paranoid schizophrenic neighbor that illustrates just how destabilizing unchecked mental illness can be for family members, friends, neighbors, and the patients themselves.
- In spite of having a dream job and a significant other who checks most of your boxes, current circumstances make imagining a future in your native Russia difficult. Unfortunately, this significant other comes from a conservative family and doesn’t understand why you’d ever want to move abroad. Are your differences too radical to build a life together?
- Your boss is an incredible leader who commands respect across the board. Unfortunately, a family tragedy has overwhelmed her with grief. How can your team offer support without intruding on her personal life? [Thanks to award-winning product manager Ebonee Younger for helping us field this question!]
- Your significant other is great in every respect — except for when he gets in a “mood” and resorts to calling you names and putting you down. Where do you draw the line on verbal abuse?
- Is it possible to profit from selling your business idea when you don’t have the financial means to create your own startup around that idea?
- It’s with heavy hearts that we report the passing of our friend Anastasia Golovashkina. RIP, Anastasia. You will be remembered, and you will be missed.
- Have any questions, comments, or stories you’d like to share with us? Drop us a line at email@example.com!
- Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger.
- Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi.
Like this show? Please leave us a review here — even one sentence helps! Consider leaving your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!
Please Scroll Down for Featured Resources and Transcript!
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Miss the show we did with Moby — musician, singer, songwriter, producer, animal rights activist, and author? Catch up here with episode 196: Moby | What to Do When Success Makes You Miserable!
Resources from This Episode:
- Benjamin Hardy | How to Be Your Future Self Now | Jordan Harbinger
- Robert Greene | The Emotions Behind Success, Mastery, and Power | Jordan Harbinger
- Do You Owe Your Friends Honesty? | Jordan Harbinger
- Deals | Jordan Harbinger
- Split | Prime Video
- Schizophrenia: What It Is, Causes, Symptoms, Treatment | Cleveland Clinic
- How to Help Someone with Schizophrenia: 10 Dos and Don’ts | Healthline
- Parasite | Prime Video
- Homelessness Programs and Resources | SAMHSA
- Peter Zeihan | Why the World Should Care About Ukraine | Jordan Harbinger
- How to Start Over in a New City | Jordan Harbinger
- Daniel Pink | The Power of Regret | Jordan Harbinger
- Ebonee Younger, SPHR, SCP | LinkedIn
- Career Supreme | Twitter
- Career Supreme | Instagram
- Family and Medical Leave Act | US Department of Labor
- What is an Employee Assistance Program (EAP)? | OPM
- How to Deal With Verbal Abuse | Verywell Mind
- You Can’t Sell an Idea | Jane Friedman
- Help! I Have Two Years Left to Live. | Feedback Friday | Jordan Harbinger
- Hanging Out with Jordan | Anastasia Golovashkina, Instagram
705: Gabe’s Front-Row Seat to Florid Psychosis | Feedback Friday
[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, Gabriel Mizrahi, who just got back from Big Sur. Man, you look like you got back from Big Sur. I'm getting some strong Jack Kerouac vibes from your face. It's not going to lie. Also, you smelled like coconuts when you walked in — why?
[00:00:21] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's not a Big Sur thing.
[00:00:22] Jordan Harbinger: They don't have coconuts in Big Sur.
[00:00:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: They don't have coconuts in Big Sur. That's just, that's my moisturizer—
[00:00:26] Jordan Harbinger: Mmm.
[00:00:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: —which I use, whether I'm in Big Sur or not.
[00:00:30] Jordan Harbinger: Now, my whole house smells like coconuts.
[00:00:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: Does it really?
[00:00:33] Jordan Harbinger: Well, it did yesterday.
[00:00:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: Like a whole thing?
[00:00:35] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:00:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm basically like a walking diffuser.
[00:00:37] Jordan Harbinger: You came in all shiny, like you just came in from a dōTERRA MLM recruitment meeting.
[00:00:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: How dare you? How dare you equate my bougie moisturizer with a slightly less bougie—
[00:00:50] Jordan Harbinger: Essential oils.
[00:00:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.
[00:00:52] Jordan Harbinger: Company MLM scam.
[00:00:54] On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turned their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. We want to help you see the Matrix when it comes to how these amazing people think and behave. And our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. So you can get a much deeper understanding of how the world works and make sense of what's really happening, even inside your own mind.
[00:01:19] If you're new to the show on Fridays, we give advice to you. We answer listener questions. The rest of the week, we have long-form interviews and conversations with a variety of absolutely incredible people, sometimes actually incredible people as I've learned, so our past guests are full of crap, but normally we have great folks like spies, CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, and performers. This week, we had Ben Hardy, Dr. Benjamin Hardy, on how to be your future self now and work backwards from the person you want to be in the future. Sounds a little bit woo-woo, but it's firmly rooted in psychology and from a guy I trust to bring the goods. And speaking of the goods. We also have one from the vault, with the one and only Robert Greene on language learning; how to find your life's task even if you think you're too young, too old, you're already established in your field; and of course, why it's important to apprentice, why you need a mentor and how to find one, or might need a mentor and how to find one and why social intelligence is crucial on the path to mastery and last but not least how you can begin to develop that. So if you like Robert Greene and his books Mastery and The 48 Laws of Power, you're going to be super into that.
[00:02:24] I also write every so often on the blog, my latest post, why you owe your friends honesty? I really enjoyed writing this one. The title kind of says it all. If you want to know how candor can transform your relationships and help your friends be there for you in a bigger way, I would definitely give this one a read. You can find that article and all of our articles at jordanharbinger.com/articles. So make sure you've had a look and a listen to everything that we created for you here in the past couple of weeks.
[00:02:51] Now, before we dive in a quick word about how we keep the lights on around here. A lot of people have been saying, "Hey, you should do one of those listener-supported things. There's Patreon, there's Apple subscription. There's all these different sorts of apps you can use to charge people." I really don't want to do that. I'm not leaning in that direction. I want to keep this free. I want to keep it available to people who can't pay for things with credit cards. There's a lot of Russians who listen to the show. There's a lot of people in other countries, like Iran, who listen to the show. There's people all over the world who can't afford to buy things. They don't have a US bank. I just don't want to deal with all of that.
[00:03:23] So the idea here is to please support our sponsors. Do a quick site search before buying things online. If you're really lazy, you can even email me, firstname.lastname@example.org. I will freaking do that for you. You lazy, POS. I'll find the code for something. If you can't use the site quickly, or like I said, you're just super lazy. Happy to help you support the show. You can always go to jordanharbinger.com/deals or do any search on the jordanharbinger.com website for the sponsor. And it'll pop up right there with the code. Again, please support those who support this show.
[00:03:55] So Gabe, usually we kick off Feedback Friday with somebody else's nightmare.
[00:03:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.
[00:04:00] Jordan Harbinger: But today we're going to kick it off with your nightmare. And you've been sitting on this one for, what? Like six months now?
[00:04:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: At least six months.
[00:04:07] Jordan Harbinger: So I'm excited to finally hear this. And by the way, if you're new to the show, or you don't want to hear this long story, skip to 40 minutes in because it is quite a long story. That's 40 minutes. You can skip right there if you don't want to hear it. And again, if you're new to the show, this might not be your bag because this is Gabriel's personal baggage. I've only heard bits and pieces of this because when we're recording, you're in your apartment, and sometimes you're like, "There's an update on the guy," and I'm like, "Oh, don't tell me now because he might be listening to your walls," which he did. And you'll understand why in a minute.
[00:04:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: It'll make a lot more sense in a moment.
[00:04:39] Jordan Harbinger: It's going to make more sense.
[00:04:40] Gabriel Mizrahi: To begin with this story.
[00:04:41] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:04:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay. So first of all, you know, I live in an apartment building. I live in Santa Monica.
[00:04:46] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:04:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's like a circle of bungalow/studio apartments around this little courtyard.
[00:04:53] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:04:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's a really charming courtyard. It's like super peaceful and beautiful. I love my courtyard. It's truly one of the most peaceful places I've ever been. It's a joy to live there. So, you know, back in December I went to Peru for two weeks.
[00:05:05] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:05:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: And while I was gone, somebody new moved into the apartment right next door to me. And all I had heard about him from another neighbor, I think she said something like, "All I've heard is that he's young and earthy," which was an interesting way—
[00:05:19] Jordan Harbinger: Surprise, surprise. He lives in Los Angeles and he's young and earthy.
[00:05:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. That describes like half the people who go to my whole place.
[00:05:24] Jordan Harbinger: Sure. He's going to play hacky sack in the courtyard.
[00:05:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.
[00:05:27] Jordan Harbinger: Worst case scenario.
[00:05:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly. The other thing I'd heard is that his father had co-signed the lease for him and that his family lived in the Bay Area or up north or something.
[00:05:36] Jordan Harbinger: So young, earthy, and unemployed, got it.
[00:05:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: Could be.
[00:05:39] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:05:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: But hard to say, maybe he's 21 and he needed, whatever. I don't know. So when I got back from Peru, starting on about Christmas day, I didn't see this guy at all. He just, he never seemed to leave, but I would hear him walking across the floorboards through the wall sometimes.
[00:05:54] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.
[00:05:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: And I know this sounds kind of weird, but just from the sound of his footsteps, I knew there was something off.
[00:06:01] Jordan Harbinger: So like they were—
[00:06:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: Nothing terrible.
[00:06:03] Jordan Harbinger: —dragging along and you hear chains.
[00:06:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's like nothing terrible.
[00:06:06] Jordan Harbinger: Okay.
[00:06:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: Just kind of weird. There was sort of like a shuffle and a creek.
[00:06:09] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.
[00:06:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't know. I just got a vibe, but I never laid eyes on this guy. So I don't know. Anyway, two weeks later, like that was early January, I woke up one day at six in the morning to the sound of somebody wailing. Like Jordan, I've never heard this sound come out of a human being before. It was awful.
[00:06:28] Jordan Harbinger: Like that's scary.
[00:06:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: It was sort of like a moaning, screaming, crying sound over and over again. So I jump out of bed. My heart is pounding because I thought somebody was getting attacked or something terrible is happening. I don't know.
[00:06:40] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.
[00:06:40] Gabriel Mizrahi: And I'm trying to figure out where the sound is coming from and I follow it to the wall and I realized it's coming from the apartment next door.
[00:06:47] Jordan Harbinger: That is so freaking — it's like haunted house sound.
[00:06:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's sort of haunted house.
[00:06:51] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:06:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: And suddenly just as my ear is pressed up against the wall, the screaming just stops and I hear a man's voice go, "He's such a bully. He's such a bully," and then just starts wailing again.
[00:07:03] Jordan Harbinger: What? Okay. So what movie is that? Where the kid's locked, they're locked in a room and all you hear are these voices behind the door, of all these different people?
[00:07:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't know. What is that?
[00:07:13] Jordan Harbinger: And then it ends up — I think it's a Marvel movie, but it's really dark.
[00:07:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, then I definitely don't know what it is.
[00:07:17] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Yeah. And you hear all these different people, like a girl and a guy and they're arguing and they're fighting. And then later on in the movie, you find out that it's just, just one guy.
[00:07:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: Are you talking about Split? The movie is about a guy with multiple personalities.
[00:07:29] Jordan Harbinger: I don't know if I've seen that, but maybe I am talking about that.
[00:07:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't know what movie—
[00:07:32] Jordan Harbinger: I watched one movie a year and we watched it last night. So I don't know. This is like a decade ago.
[00:07:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: That movie was so good.
[00:07:38] Jordan Harbinger: Anyway, continue.
[00:07:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: Anyway, yeah. So that went on for five minutes straight and then it just stopped. So later that morning, I go outside to take out the trash. And I see a new guy in the courtyard and he's talking to one of my neighbors. One of my neighbors is also a good friend of mine who's also kind of the building manager.
[00:07:55] Jordan Harbinger: Okay.
[00:07:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: And this new guy is, I would say he's about 30. He's very pale. He has a nest of like messy greasy, curly hair. He's slightly stooped. Like he sort of has this like vibe, like he doesn't have anywhere to be. He's just kind of hanging out. He's wearing a ratty sweatshirt with stains on it and pants and no shoes.
[00:08:15] Jordan Harbinger: So he's earthy.
[00:08:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: He's earthy, yeah.
[00:08:17] Jordan Harbinger: Got it. Nailed the description.
[00:08:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: He looks like a guy you would meet in Tacoma, Washington.
[00:08:20] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.
[00:08:21] Gabriel Mizrahi: If that paint a picture.
[00:08:22] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:08:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: Like a guy who's maybe—
[00:08:24] Jordan Harbinger: Like Occupy Wall Street.
[00:08:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: It could be that too. Like a guy who's doing his ethnomusicology PhD.
[00:08:29] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:08:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: At Reed College or something like that, yeah, playing hacky sack in the quad that kind of — anyway, so I walk down the stairs, I'm holding my hefty bag in one hand and I'm like, "Hey man, are you my new neighbor?" And he goes, "Who are you?" And I'm like, "Did you just move in?" And he goes, "What's your name?" And he's staring at me, and his eyes are like, they're both super intense and also kind of unfocused and glassy like he's here, but he's not here. And within five seconds, I just know there's something wrong with this guy. And I'm 90 percent sure he was the one screaming his head off this morning.
[00:09:03] Jordan Harbinger: God scary.
[00:09:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: So he follows me out to the garbage bins because he wants to talk. He's like, "Can I talk to you? We have some things to talk about." And we go out into the back in the alley and back into the courtyard and back up the stairs to the landing outside of our apartments and the whole time he's on this, just nonsensical rant that doesn't make sense. He's trying to explain to me how he props his door open at night to see the stars because he hates to be locked inside his apartment. And he likes my tree and he wants to know if he can look at my tree and a lot of stuff that doesn't quite make sense. My sense of him though is that he's harmless.
[00:09:35] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.
[00:09:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: Like he doesn't seem aggressive. He's actually really nice and gentle but clearly disturbed. And when he gets close to me, I almost gag because he smells so bad. And like, he hasn't showered in like weeks or maybe months. It was tough to be around. I'm asking questions though. Like, I'm trying to understand him and I'm kind of finishing his thoughts for him, but none of it is adding up to anything coherent. It's just like a weird jumble. And now, I'm starting to get worried, like legit worried. Because I don't know if you've ever interacted at length with a severely mentally ill person.
[00:10:07] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.
[00:10:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: Like not just passing one on the street, but having a full conversation. You get this weird spidey-sense before you even like exchange words that there's something wrong. Like your heart starts beating faster and you feel—
[00:10:19] Jordan Harbinger: Maybe you have better intuition than somebody like me.
[00:10:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: Maybe but I don't know.
[00:10:23] Jordan Harbinger: You already, even early on you'd said, what was the thing you said? "I knew something by the way he walked." I would never—
[00:10:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: Maybe.
[00:10:30] Jordan Harbinger: —notice anything like that. I'd be like this guy's moving furniture or some.
[00:10:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: Maybe I am more sensitive. I don't know.
[00:10:36] Jordan Harbinger: I think you are.
[00:10:36] But I think when you talk to somebody who is on a different, like a completely different wavelength, you get uncomfortable because they're not doing anything dangerous yet, but you're encountering somebody who doesn't share the same reality as you.
[00:10:49] Yeah. Mm-hmm.
[00:10:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: And that sense that somebody is operating by completely different rules and they're impossible to really connect with or understand that makes them unknowable and—
[00:11:00] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, unpredictable.
[00:11:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: And unpredictable.
[00:11:01] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:11:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: And it's just very unsettling.
[00:11:03] Jordan Harbinger: That is a safety trigger for humans.
[00:11:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.
[00:11:05] Jordan Harbinger: It's unpredictability.
[00:11:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hundred percent. But I feel bad for this guy and I'm worried about him. So I just keep talking to him and I'm being really, really calm. And so I'm just standing at my door and he's hovering there and we have a moment alone where the neighbors aren't around. So I just ask him, "Are you okay, man?" And he's like, "Well, actually, I've been tortured."
[00:11:22] Jordan Harbinger: Oh.
[00:11:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: And I was like, whoa, that's an intense word.
[00:11:24] Jordan Harbinger: That's super heavy.
[00:11:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: And I'm like, I need to know about this morning. So I was like, "You had a rough morning, didn't you?" Because I didn't want to be like, you know, I just want to know if he was the one screaming, but—
[00:11:34] Jordan Harbinger: Sure.
[00:11:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: —I didn't want to be like, "What's up with your brain, bro?" Like, you know, I don't want to be rude.
[00:11:37] Jordan Harbinger: Because I already feel so bad for this guy, even though he was a horrible neighbor.
[00:11:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. But like it's only been one time so far. And also I didn't want to be like, "Was that you screaming?" Like somebody abducted by Vecna this morning, you know, like I don't want to hurt.
[00:11:50] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:11:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: So anyway, he goes, "Well, okay. So like a bunch of guys broke in at my last apartment and they beat me up and they threw all my stuff out on the sidewalk. So I'm trying to rest as much as possible and eat as much as possible so I can heal."
[00:12:08] Jordan Harbinger: You know, that possibly happened.
[00:12:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: Totally. I was like, well, that sort of sounds like an eviction.
[00:12:14] Jordan Harbinger: Right.
[00:12:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: But in your brain, you might have interpreted it in a very different way.
[00:12:18] Jordan Harbinger: Or the neighbors were like, "You're out of here and we're going to do the eviction ourselves because we're sick of waiting for the police."
[00:12:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: Could be.
[00:12:24] Jordan Harbinger: Driving my—
[00:12:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: Who knows what happened?
[00:12:25] Jordan Harbinger: —aunt crazy.
[00:12:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: Also like who knows where he was living, it might not have been an apartment.
[00:12:28] Jordan Harbinger: Sure.
[00:12:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: It could have been like temporary — I don't know. But this is when I realized this guy is very clearly schizophrenic.
[00:12:34] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:12:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: Sort of paranoid schizophrenic is the vibe I'm getting.
[00:12:36] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.
[00:12:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: And I am sharing a wall with this guy. So over the next couple of weeks, I start to get the full story. His dad moved him into this apartment. The dad co-signed the lease. By the way, I kind of don't want to put this guy on blast. Let's just call him Josh.
[00:12:49] Jordan Harbinger: Okay.
[00:12:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: For simplicity.
[00:12:50] Jordan Harbinger: Sure.
[00:12:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: So Josh was on his medication when he moved in. Apparently, he was acting super normal, and then he went off his meds after he moved in and the day of the scream was probably the day the symptoms returned. He had been in and out of other facilities and living situations before. And he was probably on the street for a time.
[00:13:08] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:13:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: And this had been going on for years and the saddest part about it was apparently he was like this brilliant guy, like top student—
[00:13:16] Jordan Harbinger: Isn't that often the case with schizophrenic people? They're like super talented and they're super brilliant and they're really switched on and then something doesn't quite work out.
[00:13:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: They can be. Yeah. And you know, schizophrenia for men tends to happen between like 18 and 25-ish.
[00:13:29] Jordan Harbinger: That's terrifying.
[00:13:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: So he could have just been like this very normal, bright kid, and then the schizophrenia kicked in. So anyway, look what happens after that would take me hours to tell you this, like the full story, but basically, over the next six months, I have a front-row seat to a guy in the grip of horrid psychosis.
[00:13:47] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man.
[00:13:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: So this is what you've heard bits and pieces.
[00:13:49] Jordan Harbinger: Right.
[00:13:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: But I could never tell you because our walls are a little bit thin.
[00:13:52] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. We can't do a phone call where you fill me in unless you go somewhere.
[00:13:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.
[00:13:56] Jordan Harbinger: It's like, well, we don't need the gossip about neighbors, bad enough for you to drive to a 7/11 parking lot—
[00:14:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly.
[00:14:01] Jordan Harbinger: —to do it.
[00:14:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: It was like the only place I could talk about it. I'm just going to tell you a few things because—
[00:14:05] Jordan Harbinger: Sure.
[00:14:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: He would go into the courtyard and eat cereal out of a huge bowl and talk to the birds.
[00:14:10] Jordan Harbinger: Okay.
[00:14:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: Like that was like a normal day.
[00:14:12] Jordan Harbinger: To be fair, that sounds kind of relaxing, but okay, continue.
[00:14:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, I'd love talking to a bird every now and again, but like every day out loud.
[00:14:18] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Every day is a bit much.
[00:14:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: One time my neighbor heard him tell one of the trees in the courtyard that he was so hungry, which is like one of the saddest things that I ever heard.
[00:14:25] Jordan Harbinger: That makes me feel bad. Yeah. That makes me feel sad.
[00:14:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: One day he was sitting on the stairs. He was building an antenna out of tinfoil.
[00:14:32] Jordan Harbinger: Wow, that's right on the nose.
[00:14:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. It's kind of comical, right? Like telling the neighbors that he was receiving messages and he's lining his windows with tinfoil and cardboard cutouts from boxes that he got. Like, it was a whole thing. He was obsessed with this one rosebush in the garden. We have this like amazing rosebush by one of my neighbors' windows. The rosebush is actually right outside the window to the neighbor's bathroom. And one day, she was taking a shower and she opened the window when she was done.
[00:14:56] Jordan Harbinger: Oh my god.
[00:14:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: And he's just standing right there.
[00:14:57] Jordan Harbinger: He's just standing there.
[00:14:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: He's standing there staring, but he's staring at the rosebush, but also now kind of staring at her, like in the shower and she just screamed.
[00:15:04] Jordan Harbinger: Of course. Yeah, she wasn't expecting that, oh my god.
[00:15:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: He would knock on people's doors at 10:00 p.m. and ask them like weird questions. And he would skulk around the courtyard at night and he would pace around people's back patios, which really started to freak out some of the women living in the building.
[00:15:16] Jordan Harbinger: Sure.
[00:15:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'd wake up to the sound of him grunting, heaving, moaning. That was like a common thing.
[00:15:23] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, he's so tortured, this guy.
[00:15:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: Every month, you could feel that it was getting worse. You know, he was like decompensating pounding and pacing—
[00:15:30] Jordan Harbinger: Decompensating? I've never heard that.
[00:15:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Sort of just like getting worse, falling apart.
[00:15:34] Jordan Harbinger: This poor guy, I mean, poor neighbors and poor you, but this guy's like, really, this is so sad.
[00:15:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's interesting you say that because one of the things that was really hard about the situation is this guy started to make my life a hell.
[00:15:46] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:15:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: Like, you know how I was the last six months like I was not sleeping through the night. I would wake up four or five times a night. He would pound on the walls. I would have dreams about him.
[00:15:56] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. How could you not?
[00:15:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: I couldn't fall asleep until one and then I would be up at three and then I'd have to get up at seven or eight to work and then I'd have to take naps. It was like really getting in the way of it.
[00:16:04] Jordan Harbinger: It's like having — I don't mean to make light of it, but it's like having a baby. That's what it sounds like.
[00:16:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: I had a baby next door.
[00:16:09] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:16:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: But all that said it was really hard to get really angry because if it was hard for me, I couldn't even imagine what it's like for him.
[00:16:18] Jordan Harbinger: Imagine being him. Yeah.
[00:16:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: And that was the one thought that in a way, kind of kept me sane, but in another way, made it kind of hard to know how to feel about everything because yeah, this guy's reality is just so much more intense and difficult than mine. So for me to complain about not being able to sleep through the night seems—
[00:16:33] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:16:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: —sort of trivial compared to what he's going through. Then the monologue started, he would just go on these insane rants for hours, just word salad. Like yelling out his back window about how there's somebody upstairs in his house — we live in an apartment, it doesn't make sense — stalking him, spying on him, using drugs, extorting him. And he would also talk constantly about how he had been molested. Like he would use that word.
[00:16:57] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, no.
[00:16:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: This was a recurring theme. How all these people had molested him and he would scream stuff, like, "Get the f*ck out of my apartment." And he would point at people in the alleyway and be like, "Target, target, prosecute." Like it was starting to get quite scary.
[00:17:10] Jordan Harbinger: That's kind of aggressive.
[00:17:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: It was getting a little aggro. So by this point, everyone in the building is telling the landlord like, "Yo, this guy is really freaking us out. He's making a ton of noise in the middle of the night. He's loitering outside my door. He's talking to himself. Like this isn't healthy for him."
[00:17:25] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.
[00:17:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's not cool for us. And so the landlord called his father and he was like, "Listen, your son is not doing well. And he needs help. And this isn't the right place for him. Can you please come down and talk to him? Can you maybe try to help him find a place that is better?" And the father called the son to tell him that people were a little freaked out and that set him off.
[00:17:43] Jordan Harbinger: Ooh.
[00:17:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: So one night he comes to my door and he worked up, he knocked on my door and I opened. He's like, "Hey, are you, have you been, um, like have you been spreading rumors, false rumors about me?"
[00:17:55] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, man.
[00:17:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: And he was sort of making sense, but it wasn't making sense. And I had to explain to him like, "I'm really sorry, Josh. Like, I'm not quite understanding exactly what you're saying." And also I hadn't been doing any of the things he was accusing me of. So he's like, "Would you like me to write it down? Would you like me to give you a letter?" I was like, "Sure, that's easier."
[00:18:10] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: 10 minutes later. He knocks on my door and he hand delivers me a letter that says, "Please stop making false statements about my behavior. And I hear you banging on the walls. If you're trying to blame me for your actions stop."
[00:18:22] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, no.
[00:18:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: I was like, "Okay."
[00:18:24] Jordan Harbinger: So he didn't even know it was him banging the walls.
[00:18:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's like unclear. Is he projecting onto me something that he did? Is he trying to go on—? It's impossible to really understand. But anyway, this just got worse and worse and the hallucinations and the delusions got more and more violent and he was leaving the apartment less and less. And actually one day, I was home working and suddenly I hear the ceiling creaking, not the wall, the ceiling above me.
[00:18:51] Jordan Harbinger: This is like a horror movie in so many ways.
[00:18:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: But I'm like that doesn't, that can't be. Like, I know there's no — okay, there is an attic above these apartments in my section of the building. And this attic actually spans all six apartments on the upper floor of the building. And there are only two entrances to this attic and one of the entrances is in his apartment.
[00:19:11] Jordan Harbinger: Oh my gosh.
[00:19:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: And I'm like, could he be in the freaking attic? Right now, like trying to get in here or trying to spy on me or like suddenly I'm starting to feel like Josh. Like, I feel crazy.
[00:19:22] Jordan Harbinger: You're starting to feel like you're going crazy. Oh my gosh.
[00:19:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: And I hear what sounds like somebody moving around up there and it's moving. I can follow the sound of the creaking across the ceiling, through my apartment and into the hallway and into the bathroom and all around. And I ask my neighbor, who's also the building manager guy, and he's like, there's no way he's up in the attic. Like you need a ladder. He doesn't have the upper body strength to pull himself up.
[00:19:42] Jordan Harbinger: Sure.
[00:19:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: And I was like, "Oh, okay. That makes sense." Okay, fine, whatever. I let it go. On top of all this, the police ended up coming out like probably five or six times over the months. And every time they try to get him out and open the door to talk, he would just refuse. And he would yell at them and he would ask for their badge number. It was just a whole thing. And they would just leave because there was nothing they could do. We were hoping that the police would see how bad he was and maybe put him on an involuntary hold or call the department of mental health or something.
[00:20:08] Jordan Harbinger: Sure.
[00:20:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: Because he so clearly needed help but they just wouldn't really do anything. But the hard thing again is he would also have moments that really weirdly endeared me to him and kind of like made me stay on his side. Like one day, I came home and I walked in the courtyard and there were all these pink roses from the rosebush delicately laid out on every point of the fountain in the middle of the courtyard, and it was kind of beautiful.
[00:20:33] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: Like he had decorated the courtyard with the roses, from the thing that he was obsessed with and he had laid them out strategically around the courtyard. And it was almost like coming home to somebody, like, I almost read it as maybe an apology or just like an act of random beauty that it was so interesting and sweet. There was also a really funny thing where one day one of my other neighbors was walking through the courtyard and there happened to be a stroller. Like there's a grandmother in the building and she had left her granddaughter's stroller by the stair. And another neighbor walked through and he pointed to the stroller and asked the neighbor, "Is that your ride?" which I just thought was like really funny. And then, he also was like, he would ask the building manager and some of us if we wanted to start an ultimate Frisbee league.
[00:21:12] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, he was trying to socialize.
[00:21:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: He like wanted friends.
[00:21:14] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, man.
[00:21:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: And it was just, again, so hard to hate him. And it was so hard to be mad when you know that underneath there's like this incredibly sweet guy who just wants to connect.
[00:21:22] Jordan Harbinger: It's so sad because it's almost like the healthy, normal part of him is trying to escape.
[00:21:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.
[00:21:28] Jordan Harbinger: And he has these moments of maybe no or low symptoms, and he is like, "I should socialize with my neighbors."
[00:21:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.
[00:21:34] Jordan Harbinger: You know, "I don't know anyone in here. I wonder why is that." And then he goes back into this dark cave.
[00:21:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: Totally. And he would have good days and he would've bad days.
[00:21:41] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:21:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: But you could tell again, it was like, he wasn't an evil person. He was a sweet kid who grew up in a normal environment who just is severely mentally ill. So anyway—
[00:21:49] Jordan Harbinger: That's so, so sad.
[00:21:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: Meanwhile, the landlord has begun the eviction process because Josh wasn't paying his rent or the utilities, and he was making the building kind of unpeaceful and unsafe.
[00:21:59] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.
[00:21:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: And he would just let the notices pile up on his door. And so by the end of the six months, his whole door was just covered in notices. He just refused to read them. So in the background, this very slow eviction process is happening, but it's unclear when, or if he'll ever leave. It could be months. It could be a year or more. You hear about this all the time with the courts backed up because of COVID. So we just sort of settled into this new reality and just thought it would last for a long, long time. And again, the rants are getting more violent, more disturbing. There's a lot of stuff about molestation, torture, surveillance. He's waking me up multiple times a night. He's leaving the water running day and night flooding his apartment. The water's flowing out of the walls and down into the alleyway behind the building.
[00:22:40] Jordan Harbinger: Wow.
[00:22:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: He's turning on the spigots in the courtyard at night because he's obsessed with water. Just like waking us up with the sound and causing the building—
[00:22:47] Jordan Harbinger: I wonder if the white noise or the water noise does something.
[00:22:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: I have thought about that so much. Like what is the function of water? Like I do think there might be a white noise element. I also think there was like a purifying element.
[00:23:01] Jordan Harbinger: Maybe.
[00:23:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: Maybe like this feeling of water, but the irony is that his apartment, I didn't see it until much later, but it was not good, really bad, like really dark and dirty and terrible. Like, it's not actually that clean. So I don't really understand. Anyway, a couple of times when he got really loud, I popped out of my apartment and I would say like, "It's midnight. Could you please keep it down?" And that was when he really started to turn on me because he just snapped. And he was like, "You're the enemy." And one night he even got really mad. I said, "Can you just like, keep it down? It's like I'm trying to go to sleep." And he goes, "I'm going to have you f*cking murder."
[00:23:34] Jordan Harbinger: Whoa. That's scary. Okay.
[00:23:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: It went to 11.
[00:23:37] Jordan Harbinger: That is scary.
[00:23:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: He started pounding on the wall. He's like, "Do you like it? Do you like it when I pound on the wall?" I was like, Jesus Christ. So a few weeks after that, one day I left my apartment and in the periphery of my vision, I see something new in his window and I look at it and it's a sign written with like a Sharpie marker on cardboard from a box that he ordered. And it says in big black marker writing, "dead meat molester."
[00:24:04] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man.
[00:24:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: And then there's a drawing of my apartment next to his.
[00:24:08] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, that is scary.
[00:24:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: And an arrow pointing to it. Like here he is, like, here's the molester. And I'm like, "Cool, cool, cool, tight, tight, tight."
[00:24:17] Jordan Harbinger: Oh my gosh.
[00:24:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: This is like a new level, but what was sort of funny about it is that so much crazy sh*t had happened before that, that I was sort of like, "This is not even—"
[00:24:25] Jordan Harbinger: Par for the course.
[00:24:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: Like I was like more disturbed by the pounding on the door and the screaming all the time. This is just sort of interesting. But he had sort of like, I guess, he thought that I was the molester now in his head, whatever that means.
[00:24:35] Jordan Harbinger: That's scary to have him be fixated on you in like aggressive, possibly violent way. That's a little scary.
[00:24:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's kind of when it started to turn. So finally, after about six months of this, the landlord finally tells us, "Okay, the Sheriff's office has given us a lockout date. Apparently, this is the final step. This is the date when they actually come and physically remove him." And by the way, the father never came down.
[00:25:00] Jordan Harbinger: Wow.
[00:25:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: The parents never came to check. They would call him, he stopped answering his phone, but they never actually came in person to help move him out. And we didn't know what to make of that.
[00:25:08] I went back and forth on this. Like has his family sort of disowned him because they're actually not that caring? And like they just don't care about us or him, and they don't really want to help. And this is just the way they are. Or have they been through this cycle so many times with him and they know he just refuses help?
[00:25:25] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. This could be round 10 of this particular.
[00:25:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: And I gathered that it was like round five or six.
[00:25:30] Jordan Harbinger: Uh-huh.
[00:25:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: And if I were a parent, is there just a point where you're like, "I can't do this for the rest of my life," maybe, and I sort of understand that, but it's just so hard to wrap my head around. Anyway, here's the deal, day of the lockout comes the deputies, the Sheriff's deputies, and Santa Monica Police and the Department of Mental Health come to the building. There were like 20 people from the city in our courtyard. They try to get him to open the door. Many times they're actually being incredible with him, like talking to him really gently and trying to get him to open up. He's just refusing. He sounds different. His voice is thinner.
[00:26:02] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: He seems agitated, but also there's like a kind of a vibe that like he maybe knows the jig is up in a way. It was sort of interesting. And then the deputies and the police start arguing about whose job it is—
[00:26:13] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, no.
[00:26:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: —to actually go inside.
[00:26:15] Jordan Harbinger: Ugh.
[00:26:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: And once they realize—
[00:26:16] Jordan Harbinger: Of course.
[00:26:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: —that this isn't a straightforward eviction, because there's a mental health component, apparently neither the sheriff nor the police wants to go in and remove him because he's mentally ill and it's a jurisdictional issue. And they're each on the phone with their supervisors and they're telling them, "Don't go in."
[00:26:33] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, man.
[00:26:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: And now the ambulance has arrived because they've called an ambulance to take him to a hospital and have them evaluated. They're about to leave. And the landlord is, "No, no, you cannot leave. Like this has been going on for months. We've gone through the process. This is all in the up and up. This has to come to an end." Like nobody wants to do it. And finally, the EMT that came with the ambulance just steps up and he's like, "I'll do it." Not his job—
[00:26:56] Jordan Harbinger: Thank God.
[00:26:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: —to go inside. But, he's like, "I'll do it." And the best part about this is we have like 20 law enforcement officers there, the EMT who's like no weapons or anything, he's like, "I'll go in." They're like, "Are you sure? Because he might be a little dangerous. He might be a little aggro." And the EMT guy goes, "I know jujitsu. I can handle him myself."
[00:27:15] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I was going to say he probably has more training than any of those cops who came over there like just didn't want to do their jobs.
[00:27:21] Gabriel Mizrahi: Totally. So the EMT is just like, "Give me a blanket so I can swaddle him like a burrito and I'll take care of it."
[00:27:28] Jordan Harbinger: I should not laugh, but that's a funny visual.
[00:27:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: So the sheriffs break the door down, but the EMT goes inside and Josh is inside completely naked.
[00:27:39] Jordan Harbinger: Oh gosh. Okay.
[00:27:40] Gabriel Mizrahi: And a waft of the worst smell you've ever smelled comes out of his apartment, goes out into the courtyard and back into my window in my apartment.
[00:27:49] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, man.
[00:27:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's just the most intense experience. And he's like, "What are you doing? Get out of here, dah, dah, dah." But he's sort of not fighting them super hard. The EMT swaddles him and walks him out step by step. Like, "Just one step in front of the other buddy." They're just being so kind and gentle with him.
[00:28:04] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, man.
[00:28:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: And they take him downstairs and they like, he picks him up in his arms, like a baby and puts him on the gurney and they wheel him out to the ambulance. And that was the end of that. And afterwards I did peek inside his apartment.
[00:28:17] Jordan Harbinger: Of course. Yeah, of course. I'm so curious.
[00:28:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: It looks like — have you ever seen Breaking Bad?
[00:28:21] Jordan Harbinger: Yes.
[00:28:21] Gabriel Mizrahi: You know, like when they show some of the houses of like the drug addicted people.
[00:28:24] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:28:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. It kind of looks like that. It is trashed. It's just a disaster. It smells bad. Like he never threw a single thing away. There's just like rotting food and dirty napkins and trash everywhere. And there are like burned cereal boxes. The stovetop is completely black and burned, which is crazy because he had also taken out the smoke alarms.
[00:28:43] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, that's super dangerous.
[00:28:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: Super dangerous. Like that was actually the most dangerous thing he did out of all the weird things. It was like, that was the thing that put us at risk. Drawers and sliding doors were taken off the tracks and thrown around the apartment. It was a nightmare. Like all the knocks and weird sounds I heard were all this stuff.
[00:28:59] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man.
[00:28:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: And the most interesting thing was that the drawers in the closet were stacked on top of each other in the hallway beneath the attic entrance. And there were hand prints, like dirty hand prints around the entrance to the attic.
[00:29:12] Jordan Harbinger: So he was up there.
[00:29:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: He was up there. He had been going up into the attic and crawling around up there. It was like reverse Parasite or something. Like, I don't know what exactly he's doing—
[00:29:21] Jordan Harbinger: Movie Parasite where they're in the basement. Yeah. Oh my—
[00:29:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: Except he's up there.
[00:29:24] Jordan Harbinger: —gosh.
[00:29:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: Dude, so I can't describe to you the feeling on this day and also like I've left out like hundreds of details—
[00:29:30] Jordan Harbinger: Sure.
[00:29:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: —that I can't tell you about, but like I had this profound feeling of relief and also the most intense sadness I think I've felt for another human being in my life. In fact, my sister happened to be over that day because we had a little work to do together. And she started crying when they started talking to him through the door and I started crying.
[00:29:50] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.
[00:29:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: And I have done that a few times with him because you just get this image, like they would talk to him through the door, like, "Joshua, can we help you?" And you just had this image of this boy who was like, the parents never knew he was going to turn into this guy.
[00:30:01] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.
[00:30:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: And like, there's just innocence and a sweetness to him. And it's really hard to put words to, but it really hit me and it really got to me. Anyway, they took him to a hospital, and then they took him to another hospital and we heard that they weren't going to release him because his situation was so severe.
[00:30:16] Jordan Harbinger: Sure.
[00:30:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: Which was a huge relief as well, because I was happy to hear, he was finally going to get some help. But then a few days later we heard that the hospital had released him probably because he was medicated again and he wasn't harming himself and they can't keep you unless they have a really good reason to do that. And then the last we heard was that he's just on the street, in a town like—
[00:30:37] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, man.
[00:30:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: —45 minutes away and he's refusing help and I'm guessing he's off his meds again. And he's just one of those people you see screaming at pigeons on the street or whatever. It's just absolutely—
[00:30:49] Jordan Harbinger: That's really sad.
[00:30:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: —heartbreaking. And so I got my peace back, which is lovely, and I'm happy about that. And I kind of hope that he would find his own peace wherever he ended up. But really, I just got like a glimpse into a reality that was so different. And I have to say after taking all of these questions on Feedback Friday from people who had schizophrenic neighbors, schizophrenic tenants — remember the guy, the couple who rented out the top floor of their house to a schizophrenic guy?
[00:31:15] Jordan Harbinger: Who was yelling at them and had the kid in there?
[00:31:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, yes.
[00:31:18] Jordan Harbinger: And the neighbor guy who attacked the car with a baseball bat.
[00:31:21] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes.
[00:31:21] Jordan Harbinger: The aggressive mentally ill guy.
[00:31:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. And the guy who was like fashioning a spear in the living room.
[00:31:25] Jordan Harbinger: Sharpening a broom handle into a spear. Yeah.
[00:31:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. So every time we got those questions, I would have to sort of like imagine what that nightmare was like. And I think we've even consulted with experts—
[00:31:34] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: —who helped us understand what it's like to deal with a severely mentally ill person. I did not understand what it's like until—
[00:31:40] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, you had a front row seat now.
[00:31:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: And I had a wall between us. You know, I had some distance, I felt safe. Like he never came to my door. He never tried to get inside. He never attacked me in the courtyard. It can be so much worse than this, but the bottom line is schizophrenia is really, really sad and really scary. And it is just heartbreaking to watch up close. It was hard for us to be around, but it was much harder for him.
[00:32:06] The other thing I learned Jordan, is that our system is really limited and—
[00:32:10] Jordan Harbinger: Clearly.
[00:32:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: Broken.
[00:32:11] Jordan Harbinger: They took months to get to this guy. And then they were going to leave before the EMT was like, "Fine. I'll handle it," because the cops' bosses were like, "Well, I might have to fill out some extra forms. This is going to be a lot of paperwork. I don't know what we're allowed to do without getting sued. Just go home and keep it their problem.
[00:32:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.
[00:32:28] Jordan Harbinger: It's insane.
[00:32:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: There are gaps in social services. It's really hard to get people to come out. Like it would take weeks for Department of Mental Health to take him out. There are no funds and resources available for people. I also understand that's really difficult because you have to balance getting somebody the help they need with their liberty—
[00:32:43] Jordan Harbinger: Sure.
[00:32:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: —and freedom and not impinge on them. And it's tricky, but—
[00:32:46] Jordan Harbinger: This is comic California, man. We're supposed to have all kinds — so imagine what it's like in places where they just criminalize this kind of stuff.
[00:32:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Or ignore it completely.
[00:32:55] Jordan Harbinger: Ignore it completely.
[00:32:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: Which gets worse on the street, which is exactly what happens in parts of Los Angeles where you see a really severe mental illness, like in Skid Row.
[00:33:02] Jordan Harbinger: Sure.
[00:33:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: And it's coupled with drug use and neglect and crime, and it's a whole thing. But anyway, what I realized is that sometimes a patient, like this has to be a lot worse before they can get better. Like they have to decompensate and get themselves into a little bit of trouble before they actually get the help they need. But even then, the hospital won't keep them and it sort of becomes the cycle. Also, Josh refused to take his medication and as long as he wasn't on the street or hurting other people, no one could make him do that if he didn't want to do that. So if he didn't open the door and invite people in and ask them to help, whatever it was, no one could really see if he was alright and get him the help he needs. So it's very tricky. And also like, whose problem is this at the end of the day?
[00:33:42] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:33:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's very confusing. Like, is it the patient's problem? Is it his parents' problem? But he's also a grown-ass man.
[00:33:48] Jordan Harbinger: I mean, this is America, so healthcare, it's your problem.
[00:33:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's your problem.
[00:33:52] Jordan Harbinger: Right.
[00:33:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: But then, yeah, but then you're like, is it the government's problem at a certain point? Because I'm starting to think that yeah, the state does have a huge role to play here because, in the absence of parents or neighbors or friends, or the willingness of the person, the state has to do something to keep people safe. But again, what about his freedom and his right to live how he wants and how do you balance that?
[00:34:12] Jordan Harbinger: I mean, he could have burned down your apartment and then he would've been a criminal arsonist and also severely mentally ill.
[00:34:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. And do you wait for that to happen?
[00:34:18] Jordan Harbinger: Right. And then cut two people in the prison system who are in his position with that illness, but then did something like accidentally burned down their apartment because they lit a cereal box on fire.
[00:34:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's a good point.
[00:34:28] Jordan Harbinger: For a hundredth time.
[00:34:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Anyway, I have to say this really changed my whole understanding of mental health and mental illness, what it's like to live with it, what it's like to watch it happen. And also just how sad and destabilizing it is for family members. Like I constantly think about his parents even now and friends and neighbors. Like it was hard for us, but I can't imagine what it's like for people in his life. And most of all, for him, it's just a situation that has no answer. Like there is no simple, easy solution. You can make it easier on yourself. You can play along, you can take the medication or take advantage of the resources, but oftentimes you don't even have the inner resources to even understand like he couldn't even understand what was happening. Like he was convinced the medication was making him ill.
[00:35:09] Jordan Harbinger: Ugh.
[00:35:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: So yeah, you know, we desperately need more programs for vulnerable people, but I know that's easier said than done. And I just had to finally tell you that story because—
[00:35:18] Jordan Harbinger: Geez. Yeah. Wow.
[00:35:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: —I don't have to worry about Josh hearing it through the wall and freaking out on me even more.
[00:35:23] So that is my Feedback Friday night.
[00:35:25] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. I mean 40-minute Q1, yeah, this is really, this is quite something. I mean, I knew there was a lot going on. We had small updates here and there, you texted me things here and there, but I'd never heard the full — and this isn't even the full. I never even heard the full abridged version.
[00:35:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: I tried to give you the highlights and focus on things—
[00:35:43] Jordan Harbinger: This poor guy.
[00:35:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: But yeah, there's so many moments that—
[00:35:45] Jordan Harbinger: Also, yeah, like, thankfully, you can live in a little bit more peace now.
[00:35:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: And we don't have to stop and start Feedback Friday every time somebody yells.
[00:35:53] Jordan Harbinger: There was a lot of that. There was a lot, the helicopters and the planes in LA are bad enough. It was also a thing when we had — it would've been harder to explain to the listening audience, what the screaming and banging was.
[00:36:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: That would've been weird. Yeah.
[00:36:04] Jordan Harbinger: On the wall. It's just, we just desperately need more help for people like this, but you're right. We have to balance it with civil liberties and there's no sort of really obvious, easy answer other than something that's — yeah, I don't even know. Where do we begin?
[00:36:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: More coercive.
[00:36:15] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. It's more coercive. Exactly. Well, hopefully, like you said, find some peace, but either way, he is not coming back to your apartment.
[00:36:23] You know who's definitely coming back though? You and I, right after this quick break.
[00:36:30] This episode is sponsored in part by Starward Whisky, which is good because I certainly need a drink after that hot mess of a story. So I now casually will reach over and drink some Starward Whisky, which is an Australian whisky. Not typically what I think of when I think of whisky, Australians are not necessarily known for whisky, maybe Vegemite avo toast, freakishly large spiders. Starward, however, was named the most awarded distillery of the year at the 2022 San Francisco World Spirits Competition. That's a huge win for a craft distillery out of Melbourne, Australia. I like how my Australian accent just faded away in the middle of that sentence. They're kind enough to send me two bottles. The Two-Fold Double Grain is their most popular bottle, but personally, I love the Nova Single Malt, which was matured exclusively in red wine barrels, giving it a really unique flavor, which is funny because I do not really like red wine, but apparently I like whisky that has a little bit of red wine flavor. Go figure. I have very eclectic, sophisticated taste. Wouldn't you say, Jen?
[00:37:21] Jen Harbinger: Yeah, but don't take his word for it. Be the judge for yourself. Give Starward's award-winning whiskies a try and get $20 off your order using code JORDAN20. Visit Starward, that's S-T-A-R-W-A-R-D.com and get $20 off your order, ships straight to your door, using code JORDAN20 starward.com, code JORDAN20.
[00:37:42] Jordan Harbinger: Sip Starward responsibly. Cheers.
[00:37:45] This episode is also sponsored by WRKOUT. I've been doing my buddy's virtual personal training called WRKOUT and initially — like I said before when you've heard this, I'm skeptical, right? I don't think I can get a personal trainer over what essentially is Skype or Zoom. I tried a lot of things, but nothing really has the convenience and personal connection that WRKOUT has. I freaking fell in love with this. It took a little bit of time, but I went from twice a week to four times a week. And if you think you can't, just know that even my 80-year-old mother is hooked on WRKOUT and does it, I think, two or three times a week now. I look forward to my sessions that's definitely not always been the case for working out, especially at 8:00 a.m. My trainers, Chad and Kareem, who, by the way, have the most trainer-esque names in the personal training business. They've gotten to know me. They know how to push me. They know when I'm not feeling it or have like a weird sort of quirk thing going on with my body. I feel stronger. I look better than I have, probably ever certainly in the last few decades. The trainers are all top-notch. It's not someone just yelling at you in the gym or motivating you. It's safety, it's progression. And yes, there's a commitment there and you show up, but it's about living longer, not getting injured longevity in the training game. And WRKOUT has a lot of cool new features. Like you can share your heart rate in real time with your trainer. All this stuff really makes the training experience amazing. They've got countdowns and timers and everything. It's really just a great way to work out. If you want to see what highly vetted world-class personal training can do for you, then check out wrkout.com. Try it out. That's W-R-K-O-U-T. Remember, it's workout without the first O and tell them Jordan sent you.
[00:39:16] Thank you so much for supporting the show. And of course, for listening to the show, we love creating this for you. All the sponsors that you hear, all those deals, and discount codes, they're all in one, very searchable, mobile-friendly place, jordanharbinger.com/deals. You can also search for any sponsor on the website as well, right there at jordanharbinger.com. Please consider supporting those who support this show.
[00:39:36] Now back to Feedback Friday.
[00:39:40] All right next up or first up as it might be.
[00:39:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey Jordan and Gabe, I'm a 26-year-old female software engineer. And after struggling for many years, I'm now working at a very famous international tech company and dating a great guy whom I love dearly and have been with for a year. The problem is I'm Russian. And while I'm okay with living here, I've always wanted to move abroad. I've traveled a lot, been to many countries, and always considered myself very cosmopolitan in my beliefs. Now, given the current circumstances here, I'm getting more and more scared, depressed, and claustrophobic. My feeling of alienation in my own country is through the roof.
[00:40:19] Jordan Harbinger: Mmm.
[00:40:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: And I want to move desperately as soon as possible. The thing is my boyfriend is younger than me and he's applying for a master's degree here in Russia, which takes two years. He was also raised far from Moscow in a very conservative family. And while not really pro-government, he isn't that swayed by what's happening these days. He wants to stay in Russia, close to his culture and his language and doesn't really get why I'm so desperate to move although I've tried explaining it to him a couple of times already. I realize I don't have the right to change his wishes and beliefs, but I'm not ready to stay here for two more years with no certainty that he'll be ready to move afterward. At the same time, I really, really want to try to build my life with this guy who checks all my boxes except this big one. So how do I balance my wishes with his? Do we even have a chance to build a future with such different views on life? Signed, A Tethered Technologist, looking to Get out of This.
[00:41:15] Jordan Harbinger: Wow, this is pretty fascinating, Gabe. It's a real glimpse into how Russian politics are playing out in people's relationships in Russia these days. And I kind of wondered about that in the back of my head.
[00:41:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.
[00:41:26] Jordan Harbinger: You know, what happens if—?
[00:41:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: Two people disagree about the world.
[00:41:28] Jordan Harbinger: Your cousin lives in Ukraine.
[00:41:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.
[00:41:31] Jordan Harbinger: How do you handle that?
[00:41:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.
[00:41:32] Jordan Harbinger: Or your girlfriend's family or wife's family is from there. You hear about this in the news here and there. It's a hard one. You're in love with somebody who's different from you in some pretty significant ways. He wants to stay in a country that you're not happy with. He's not as exposed to international perspectives, or I guess you'd call it big city cosmopolitan ideas. He doesn't maybe stand for Putin, but he's also not too bothered about what's going on these days. He's more conservative in his values. He's struggling to see your point of view, but you're really in love with him. You want to build your life with him. He's great in all these other ways. So yeah, there's some real conundra here.
[00:42:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: Nice use of conundra.
[00:42:09] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I'm trying to bring it back. So, first of all, it's very clear from your letter that you know what you want in life. You know your values, your needs. That's wonderful. Your boyfriend has his values and needs, and those aren't lining up at least not right now. And I do think that's a real challenge in a relationship. This isn't just, you know, "Yeah. I want to live in the city, but he wants to live in the suburbs or on a farm." Or, "Yeah, we quibble about some of the details, but we both think Russia's doing the right thing over there in Ukraine." You guys, you see your country and the world in profoundly different ways, which is fair. He's allowed to hold whatever beliefs that he holds. It's just hard when you guys are trying to build a life together and you're not even sure where it's going to be, let alone settle on all these other details.
[00:42:54] The other thing that jumped out at me here is your boyfriend doesn't really get why you're so desperate to move even though you said you tried explaining it to him a couple of times. I'm not sure if you meant that he understood where you're coming from, but he just has a different angle on things. Or if he wasn't able to hear you at all, which could be a deeper challenge in the relationship itself. It might mean you guys don't communicate as well as you should, or that his beliefs are making it impossible to even appreciate where you're coming from. That could be a more fundamental problem.
[00:43:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.
[00:43:25] Jordan Harbinger: And if it is that's something that I would hold alongside all the other things that you have in love about your relationship. So to answer your question, I do think it'll be hard to build a future with such different views on life. Unless one of you is willing to reconsider your views or give up certain needs. But that could come at a cost — resentment, despair, regret, inauthenticity, plus more of the fear, depression and claustrophobia that you yourself have described. And those are really important signs to pay attention to. You're having a very strong response to living in a place that doesn't feel right to you. And I'd hate for you to settle for those feelings if you have the opportunity to get out.
[00:44:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: I agree with you completely. Assuming, of course, that she's depressed and afraid and claustrophobic because of what Russia is like these days.
[00:44:16] Jordan Harbinger: Mmm.
[00:44:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: And not just because she's dealing with those feelings anyway and just happens to be living there.
[00:44:20] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Yeah, no, that, that's a good point. It's tempting to pin all your hopes for feeling better on moving to a different place. I went through this when I was kind of down and out about like, "Oh, college sucks. It's not the thing I wanted it to be." I'm like, "I'm going to go to Israel." And then I went to Israel and I was like, "Uh, this is kind of the same problems but different place." And then I went to Ukraine, coincidentally, and I had a different experience there, but most of the core issues were still the core issues. And it all comes back to that wherever you go there you are.
[00:44:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, you are.
[00:44:49] Jordan Harbinger: You're just bringing your freaking problems—
[00:44:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm just sad, but eating falafel now.
[00:44:52] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, exactly. "Oh, I'm sad and lonely and bad with the opposite sex, except I'm eating falafel now. And I don't have a meal plan."
[00:44:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.
[00:44:58] Jordan Harbinger: And then it's like, "Oh, okay. I'm going to Ukraine." And now, I still sort of on my own a lot, but I'm eating a lot of vareniki," and the food was awesome there. So maybe that was part of it. And I got a lot of great experiences.
[00:45:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: Sure.
[00:45:11] Jordan Harbinger: But I literally, for some dumb young reason, you know, being young, I thought I'm going to move there and I'm going to be, I'm going to have this totally different, I'm going to be a different person.
[00:45:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. But it's such a tempting thought.
[00:45:22] Jordan Harbinger: It is a very tempting thought.
[00:45:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: We've all thought that, or it could be with a job or with a partner or whatever it is. But I have to say, though, listening to this letter, it does sound like she feels this way because of the way her country is these days.
[00:45:32] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:45:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: The fear and the claustrophobia, especially seem tied to that. So maybe getting out is exactly what she needs. My only other thought is you're 26. I know you love this guy. I know you could build a great life with him and I'm not necessarily saying you shouldn't, but wanting to live somewhere else and get out of a, let's just say, problematic environment right now, experience the world some more, these are super legitimate needs. They are very fun and exciting and interesting. This is the time in your life when you should be pursuing them. And sometimes sadly, that does mean that your goals just won't be compatible with another person. At your age, I really do believe that you have an obligation to yourself to build the life that you are excited about and to listen to your intuition and to honor your values, you know, to follow your dreams, basically as corn as that sounds.
[00:46:22] And it sounds like you're already leaning in that direction. Like you said, you're not ready to stay in Moscow for two more years with no certainty that he'll be ready to move somewhere else afterwards. So maybe your mind is already kind of made up, but what's hard is that you can get everything you want here. There will be trade-offs. Those opportunity costs, they're part of life. So you need to do some soul searching and figure out what's most important to you. And I know that's what you're writing and about, like, "How do I balance my wishes with his?" But that's really something only you can answer. It basically comes down to whether the love you feel for this guy is more important than the freedom you could have somewhere else.
[00:47:01] But I can say this, given everything you've shared with us, I do think there are some very good reasons to prioritize your interests right now. I know that sounds kind of brutal, but I'm thinking about you. I'm thinking about you in 10—
[00:47:14] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.
[00:47:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: —15, 20 years, wondering what life might have been like if you had listened to that voice telling you to live somewhere else because this is the time and you have talents and interests that can only really be explored in another country. And I would hate for you to have any regrets about that.
[00:47:29] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. That's where my head is at too. She's young, she's driven, she's super smart. She's obviously very sensitive and insightful.
[00:47:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.
[00:47:37] Jordan Harbinger: She deserves more than what her country seemingly is offering—
[00:47:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.
[00:47:42] Jordan Harbinger: —right now. And so if she has the opportunity to live in Berlin or Stockholm or New York or whatever, even for a little while you kind of got to take it.
[00:47:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: Take it. Yeah.
[00:47:49] Jordan Harbinger: I'm sure Russia is an amazing place. I would love to check it out. No shade on Russia, but the brain drain and economic pain that's forthcoming and is already underway over there is very real. And the crazy authoritarian nationalism—
[00:48:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: Is real.
[00:48:03] Jordan Harbinger: —that's a real thing.
[00:48:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.
[00:48:05] Jordan Harbinger: And I'm sure that if you could get to the very soul of most Russian people living in a city like Moscow, they'd be like, "Yeah, I could do without the whole causing a war international sanctions, authoritarian, secret police type leader," you know?
[00:48:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Depending on what news source they're watching.
[00:48:18] Jordan Harbinger: Depending on what news source. But honestly, I think even unless they are really die-hard nationalists, they're probably like—
[00:48:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: Deep down.
[00:48:25] Jordan Harbinger: "Yeah, I could live with that. I could live without that."
[00:48:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: They know what's up.
[00:48:26] Jordan Harbinger: Right. I think they could. You could avoid all of that by moving to some place that is able to offer you a better life for yourself and your future children. And you can always move back and help rebuild the Russian economy once this giant mess is over with and they're going to need all the help they can get at that point.
[00:48:43] And by the way, speaking of regret and wishing things were different, you might want to listen to my interview with Dan Pink about that exact topic. It is a great episode for anyone who's wrestling with regret or wanting to live a life without regret, which I think is a lot of us. That's episode 625. We'll also link to it in the show notes.
[00:49:00] And to be fair here and acknowledge our biases, Gabe and I are probably more supportive of you exploring this because we've also recently been really saddened and disturbed by what's happening in Ukraine.
[00:49:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.
[00:49:11] Jordan Harbinger: I am not a fan of Putin. I've spent years studying the guy. This is sort of the worst-case scenario that a lot of us saw coming. I'm sure that's playing a big part in my take here at least. Someone else who supports Russia might have a very different opinion on all of this. So that's another variable to consider. I happen to think that we're on the right side of history, but I'm just keeping it real.
[00:49:30] I know this is a daunting decision. Either way, you have to give something up, either your boyfriend or your dream of living abroad. And that's really tough. That is an intense choice, but I don't think you'd be having these feelings if they weren't trying to tell you something. So I say, listen to them. You're a software engineer. You have the skills that companies all over the world value, and it sounds like you could be living a very fulfilling life abroad—
[00:49:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.
[00:49:56] Jordan Harbinger: —right now.
[00:49:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: Agreed.
[00:49:57] Jordan Harbinger: So I hope you get to explore this and I hope that your boyfriend understands at least a little bit and who knows, maybe he even joins you one day or he realizes how serious you are. And he's like, "Okay, I guess we're going abroad."
[00:50:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: Could be.
[00:50:08] Jordan Harbinger: Maybe he's just thinking, oh, it's a phase or she's getting cabin fever. If he comes around, great. And I hope it leads you to some more exciting adventures either way. So good luck.
[00:50:18] All right. What's next?
[00:50:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, I work in Massachusetts and my director is the glue that holds us all together. Under her leadership. She has drastically improved our organization and everyone in the department greatly respects her. Unfortunately, this last month has been absolutely devastating for her. She found out that her husband has a terminal form of cancer and only has a few months to live. She's been working around the clock to make sure that the organization is in a steady place before she will inevitably have to take time off. After work she's in the hospital, visiting her husband and comforting her kids. Understandably, she's completely exhausted and overwhelmed with grief. Our team has stepped up to take anything we can off of her plate, but we're more concerned for her wellbeing. She's been breaking down on Zoom calls yet keeps trying to hold it together. What can our team do to help? We're assuming that therapy would be her best option, but how do we even bring that up? Signed, Helping a Mate Carry This Weight Without Starting to Great Frustrate or Aggravate.
[00:51:21] Jordan Harbinger: Wow, you went all out on that one. Yeah. This is a good question. Going through something super intense at work, grieving at work, this is tricky territory, and it's hard to know how exactly to support a colleague who's really going through it. We wanted to talk to an expert about all this. So we reached out to Ebonee Younger, employee relations expert and talent strategist.
[00:51:40] And first, when we asked Ebonee how to step up to help your colleague out right now, her main recommendation was to turn it up a notch with regards to managing up. And that means, overcommunicating your team's priorities, getting her feedback to make sure everyone's aligned, anticipating her needs taking on small tasks that would help unburden her. And when you guys bring problems to her attention, it would be really helpful to have a few solutions on deck. You know, do some of the lifting for her, get the ball rolling, see how much you can take care of on your own and reduce the burden on her.
[00:52:15] Ebonee's other idea, someone in the organization may be the most senior member of the team or a colleague who's especially close to your director. Someone should have a one-on-one with her. Check in, see how she's doing. You obviously care deeply about this woman. And it's clear that she cares a lot about her work and her team, which is great. So Ebonee's advice is to approach her with empathy and compassion and let her know that you are all there to support her during this incredibly difficult. You guys could suggest taking on a portion of her work or all of her work, but the best solution, there is one that's decided upon as a team collaboratively.
[00:52:51] Also Ebonee recommends trying to reduce the number of meetings y'all have these days. As we all know, so many meetings are just status update nonsense, or like brainstorming sessions that could easily be done over email, Slack, text. Not at all is my favorite option. They could make your team even more efficient and reduce the amount of time your director has to stop herself from bursting into tears on a freaking Zoom call in front of all of her colleagues. So that's a win-win. But in the bigger picture, Ebonee's view is that the work is going to get done, whether she's there or not, but she will never get these two or three months with her husband back. That's just the unfortunate reality. And that's where her focus needs to be.
[00:53:33] As Ebonee put it — and I thought this was very wise — there are some jobs only you can do, maybe that's being a parent. I know you think it's your email inbox or some sort of meeting thing, but it's probably more like being a parent to your young children. Maybe that's being a spouse to a sick partner. Maybe that's being a caregiver for an aging parent. If you own your own small business or something, sure, it's much harder to step away. But these big companies, they're always going to keep pushing. They will survive. They're going to be fine. I hate to say this, but it's like, don't worry about them. They're certainly not going to spend a whole hell of a lot of time as a corporate entity worrying about you.
[00:54:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.
[00:54:11] Jordan Harbinger: Maybe that's not true for your team, but it's probably true for the C-suite, that's never met your boss in the first place.
[00:54:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: Plus they have the infrastructure, processes—
[00:54:17] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:54:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: —momentum. They'll be fine. Yeah, they'll keep going.
[00:54:19] Jordan Harbinger: So Ebonee's recommendation for anyone listening right now, and this is coming from an HR professional remember, don't miss out on life's precious moments because you're trying to hold it down at work. Trust that your company and your colleagues they're going to be okay.
[00:54:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: So true. That is a really good reminder. And as for when the higher-ups should intervene if an employee is regularly breaking down and struggling to keep up, well, that depends on the type of work you guys do. Ebonee's take was if a major account is at stake or you guys get a complaint, like a serious complaint from a big customer or important targets are being compromised, then she would escalate it. And she said that there's a way to let the higher-ups know that something's awry without going behind this woman's back. So if you need to escalate this via email to somebody who needs to look into it and make sure that the trains are running on time or whatever, include her on the email, if you guys need to have a meeting to make sure that things are still on track, make sure she's there, invite her to the meeting. Like don't skulk around behind her back and make her get paranoid about whether she's still, you know, valued by the company.
[00:55:21] To use Ebonee's words, and I think this was also a really important point, this woman is going through a rough time. It's important to not treat her as if she's incompetent on top of that. Ebonee also said that your director has some options if she needs to take time off and we're going to get a little like detailed logistical here, but I do think this is really useful information. So again, this depends on the size of your company, how long she's been with them. But if the organization has at least 50 employees and she's been a full-time employee for a year, that means like 35 hours a week or more, she would qualify for both the Family Medical Leave Act and her state's leave.
[00:55:56] So FMLA gives an employee up to 12 weeks of protected leave and Massachusetts gives an additional 24 hours. So both leaves, by the way, can be taken continuously or intermittently. So for example, she could take leave here and there for her husband's doctor's appointments, or when he is having a really tough day or she could wait until he's admitted to say hospice to start a continuous leave. And of course, she will need documentation from a medical provider and all that. In Ebonee's view, she should connect with her HR person like yesterday to start the FMLA process. Also some companies offer what's known as an Employee Assistance Program or EAP for those going through a tough time, which means she might be eligible for up to eight sessions of counseling, which is great and that could include her children as well. Her insurance plan might also offer mental health benefits.
[00:56:43] So my take, if one of you guys is close enough with her, maybe you gently encourage her to take advantage of that, but Ebonee's recommendation is that you guys leave it to HR to discuss this with her. Maybe that's more appropriate because it is kind of personal. Like if you are her employee, I don't know if you should go up to your boss and be like, "Hey, I think you should talk to somebody because you're freaking everybody out on the Zoom," or whatever, you know, but—
[00:57:05] Jordan Harbinger: "Try and hold it together, Janice." Like not—
[00:57:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, come on.
[00:57:07] Jordan Harbinger: —not ideal.
[00:57:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: But I do think that you guys seem to have a really good relationship with her and I think she's probably at a place in her life right now where if somebody came up and said, "We love you and we're concerned about you," I think it would be great if you had somebody to talk to, she probably wouldn't take a ton of offense to that. Just make that decision based on the quality of your relationship.
[00:57:24] Jordan Harbinger: I mean, look, if you're comfortable enough to cry in front of your team on a Zoom call—
[00:57:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.
[00:57:27] Jordan Harbinger: —instead of just going, "Excuse me," and running into the bathroom to do it.
[00:57:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. You can listen to a Better Help discount code.
[00:57:32] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Yeah. You're probably better, it sounds like they have a tight little team.
[00:57:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: I think so.
[00:57:36] Jordan Harbinger: Which is great.
[00:57:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.
[00:57:37] Jordan Harbinger: I know for me to cry in front of people at work would take quite a bit.
[00:57:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: It would, but you know, like that conversation might even bring them closer together.
[00:57:45] Jordan Harbinger: I think so.
[00:57:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: You know, like it's sort of those moments when you realize that you do have a relationship with somebody you didn't think you have.
[00:57:50] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Or that people care about you in a dimension that you just weren't paying attention to at all.
[00:57:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right, right. It could bring them closer together, which is actually really lovely.
[00:57:57] Jordan Harbinger: Sound advice all around. Man, I feel for this woman, losing your spouse and juggling a demanding job, she's obviously extremely competent.
[00:58:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes.
[00:58:05] Jordan Harbinger: And an overachiever. And she's probably really struggling to achieve the desired result here. And also she's running, talk about burning the candles at both ends. I mean, this is just—
[00:58:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: Seriously, how do you do both of those things at the same time?
[00:58:17] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:58:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: So difficult.
[00:58:18] Jordan Harbinger: And with your kids, it's just a lot to take on.
[00:58:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's a lot.
[00:58:20] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. But this woman sounds great. She's lucky to be surrounded by colleagues who care so much about her and you being there for her right now that could make this whole period just a little bit more manageable. And maybe, like you said, Gabe, quite meaningful as well. So big, thanks to Ebonee for her wisdom. You can find Ebonee on Twitter and on Instagram at @CareerSupreme or on LinkedIn, and we'll link to all those socials in the show notes.
[00:58:44] You can reach us email@example.com. Please keep your emails concise. Use a descriptive subject line and by descriptive, I don't mean Feedback Friday. Okay, we get that. Just anything but that actually. If you need a new perspective on life, love, work. How to come out to your religious gas lighting parents? Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up firstname.lastname@example.org. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous.
[00:59:10] You know what also brings a tear to your eye, Gabriel? The great deals on the products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.
[00:59:19] This episode is sponsored in part by Better Help online therapy. If you're going through a rough time — well, look I have, and no matter how big or small of a situation I've always sought the help of a therapist. Well, not always, once I got off my stubborn high horse, I sought the help of a therapist to help me navigate through this stuff. If you're on the fence, take this as a sign to try it out. Prioritize your mental health. All of Better Help's therapists are licensed professional therapists. They take privacy very seriously. You can even be anonymous. You don't have to leave the house to talk to a Better Help therapist, which you know, with gas prices nowadays, that's going to save you a bunch of money in itself. Connect by video or phone, text or chat your therapist at any time. Sometimes it's just helpful to be able to vent in a judgment-free zone. Plus it's more affordable than in-person therapy. You get matched in under 48 hours. Better Help really wants to make sure you find a therapist that works for you. So you can always switch therapists at no additional charge.
[01:00:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: And our listeners get 10 percent off your first month at betterhelp.com/jordan. That's better-H-E-L-P.com/jordan.
[01:00:19] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by Progressive insurance. Most of you listening right now are probably multi-tasking. Yeah, while you're listening to me talk, you're probably also driving, cleaning, exercising, maybe doing a little grocery shopping, but if you're not in some kind of moving vehicle, there's something else you could be doing right now, getting an auto quote from Progressive insurance. It's easy and you can save money by doing it right from your phone. Drivers who saved by switching to Progressive save over $700 on average and auto customers qualify for an average of seven discounts — discounts for having multiple vehicles on your policy, being a homeowner and more. So just like your favorite podcast, Progressive will be with you 24/7, 365 days a year. So you're protected, no matter what. Multitask right now, quote your car insurance at progressive.com to join the over 27 million drivers who trust Progressive.
[01:01:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. National Annual Average Insurance Savings by New Customer surveyed, who saved with Progressive between June 2020 and May 2021. Potential savings will vary. Discounts, not available in all states and situations.
[01:01:16] Jordan Harbinger: Thank you for listening to and supporting the show and for allowing us to give you this amazing advice week in and week out. To learn more and get links to all of the discounts and the deals they're all in one place over at jordanharbinger.com/deals. You can also search for any sponsor using the search box on the website right over at jordanharbinger.com as well. So please consider supporting those who support this show.
[01:01:39] Now back to Feedback Friday.
[01:01:43] All right, what's next?
[01:01:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. My boyfriend is great in every respect, but when he gets in a mood, he resorts to calling me stupid and putting me down. To be clear, I don't take issue with being told I'm stupid. I'm very confident and I know my strengths and weaknesses. What upsets me is hearing these words from a partner I trust and respect. I've told him as much, but he's uncomfortable with the conversation after the fact and shuts down refusing to talk about it. When he does talk, he blames me for his behavior. I've tried so many tactics. I ignore him. I speak up for myself. I shut down and tune him out, which isn't healthy either. Sometimes, I yell, which isn't effective but is satisfying. I explain that I can't live in this environment and we need to come to an agreement or separate. I even left once and he continued the verbal abuse through texts. When I ignored him, he finally apologized and promised a change and therapy for us. I returned the next day. He didn't follow through. And a year later, I'm feeling hopeless and foolish. Cutting my losses and leaving feels like the easy way out, but something I would regret down the road. I do love and respect him. And there's something to be said for that. We have a child and a farm together, and there is so much here to adore, but not at the expense of my dignity. I was raised in a similar environment and will not allow this for my daughter, but I don't want to lose the wonderful life we have. We've talked about getting married, which is what I've wanted since I met him but I would be scared to make that commitment when I'm brought to tears on a monthly basis. If this doesn't work, I'll have to build this life. I love without him. And that's okay too. So how do I finally draw the line on verbal assault, name-calling, and degradation? Signed, Demand, Withstand or Draw a Line in the Sand.
[01:03:36] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, oh yeah. This is a tough letter. This is a real glimpse into a very complicated relationship. So the thing that's really jumping out at me here is how riddled with conflict this whole relationship is. Your boyfriend is emotionally abusive, but you trust and respect him you said. You've pushed for him to change, but you stuck with him when he didn't and you've stayed. You say you feel hopeless and foolish for believing him when he said he'd get help, but you don't want to stay at the expense of your dignity. He refuses to talk to you about all this, but there's just so much here to adore. You're worried about your daughter growing up in a toxic home, but you don't want to lose the wonderful life you have. You want to get married to this guy more than anything, but you're scared to commit to somebody who makes you break down every few weeks, but also you might/probably would be okay building a life without him. But then again, leaving feels like the easy way out. These are all quotes from you and it's something you'd regret down the road.
[01:04:34] The reason I'm repeating all of this back to you is so that you can hear for yourself how tangled up you are here, how contradictory these feelings are. I'm not judging you for that. I just think it's important for you to see how your stance has left you so vulnerable to a person who is mistreating you.
[01:04:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.
[01:04:54] Jordan Harbinger: This is often the dynamic in an abusive relationship. It is so hard. It is so complicated, but you have to see how you're sticking with this man and either ignoring or minimizing or justifying, or in some cases just enduring the verbal abuse because you know, you can take it. You have to see how that's exposing you to this hurtful behavior. And you might even be signaling to him that he can continue treating you this way. Not that that's an excuse for him. And look, I don't want to go for the easy psychoanalysis here, but the fact that you grew up in a similar environment, I think that's playing a huge role here.
[01:05:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.
[01:05:34] Jordan Harbinger: As I'm sure, you know, when you're raised in an abusive home, sometimes being mistreated, well can feel like love or at least it feels familiar and it can be very hard to see just how severe the abusive behavior really is. But when you said, "I don't take issue with being told I'm stupid, I'm very confident and I know my strengths and weaknesses," honestly, that kind of broke my heart. I hear some real resilience in that statement, but I also hear somebody who is so accustomed to being mistreated, that she can't fully grasp the weight of her partner's words. And also someone who maybe sometimes even agrees with her abusive partner, because, you know, "Yeah, my boyfriend calls me stupid sometimes, but I know deep down that I'm not. So it's okay. Plus is it really so bad if my boyfriend calls me stupid, if I also know that I'm not perfect," that logic, it's probably one of the ways you've learned to cope.
[01:06:27] And that's oftentimes the textbook logic of an abused partner. And I wonder if maybe those thoughts are also a way to continue shifting responsibility away from your boyfriend and onto you, because it's safer for you to think of different ways to respond to him, including drawing stronger boundaries than it is to say, "Well, my boyfriend is abusive and he needs to seek serious help if this is ever going to work."
[01:06:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.
[01:06:51] Jordan Harbinger: So, ahh, while I appreciate your question — how do I draw the line on the verbal abuse, the name-calling, and the degradation? I think that's kind of missing the point, because first of all, you've already drawn different kinds of boundaries. You've ignored him. You've spoken up for yourself. You've fought back. You even left once and nothing changed. So the question for me is why.
[01:07:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: Why? Yeah. Well, one answer might be that her boundaries just weren't strong enough, right?
[01:07:18] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.
[01:07:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: Like when you left that time, your boyfriend kept attacking you. And then when he realized that he might really lose you, he backpedaled and apologized and said he wanted to go to therapy and then you went right back to him. But a stronger boundary, a healthier boundary would've been to say, "Okay, great, go to therapy, go work on this. I'll be over here taking care of myself and our daughter. And when you're ready to talk, like really talk, we can talk, but I'm not going to come right back until I see that you're making real progress or you're at least committed to the process," right?
[01:07:49] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.
[01:07:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: And then it's on him to prove that he's willing to do the work that he says he will. And again, we are not blaming you for doing that. This is extremely common in relationships like this, but you asked how to draw a line. So I'm just telling you what a stronger boundary could look like in practice. I would encourage you to get very clear with yourself on what you will, and won't put up with, from your boyfriend from now on and how you're going to respond if he continues like this. Now, you know that coming right back, that's not going to work.
[01:08:19] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.
[01:08:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: And your boyfriend hasn't followed through on his commitment to getting better. So you've learned something from that experience. And now you know that you have to hold that boundary even more strongly if you decide to leave again.
[01:08:30] But Jordan, I also wonder if it's harder for her to hold these boundaries because of her history. That's where she needs to do some work here, right? Okay. So you talked about couples counseling. I'm sure that would be helpful. But if I were you, I would also be very interested in understanding how you are showing up in this relationship—
[01:08:47] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.
[01:08:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: —how your patterns and your experiences are playing a role here. Why it's been so hard to work on this with your boyfriend, or to finally decide to end the relationship if that's what you want? Your boyfriend also needs to talk to somebody that is very clear but so do you. And in a world where your boyfriend might not actually get the help that he desperately needs, it's your job to step up and get the help that you need. And I got to say, given that you and your daughter are in a potentially quite difficult hurtful situation, I really do think you could use that support.
[01:09:20] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I'm with you on that. Gabe, he's the aggressor here. No doubt about it, but if he won't change, then she needs to change.
[01:09:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes.
[01:09:27] Jordan Harbinger: She needs to figure out the roots of those messy conflicts. We talked about a moment ago and what she ultimately wants here. As you can tell, we're pretty concerned about you. I'm sure everyone listening to this right now is having a similar reaction. This is not a loving, peaceful home for you or your daughter to grow up in.
[01:09:47] Could your boyfriend get better? Sure. Yeah, I hope he does. And I do have some empathy for the guy because you don't tear down your partner like this if you aren't in some serious pain yourself.
[01:09:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: Good point.
[01:09:57] Jordan Harbinger: But what he's doing is not okay.
[01:09:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: No.
[01:09:58] Jordan Harbinger: It's not okay. And if he isn't sincerely seeking the help he needs, if he isn't truly working on this with you, then you have to ask yourself why you're sticking around. And most importantly, you got to try to figure out what matters more to you, you and your daughter's safety and happiness, or hanging onto a relationship that's causing you so much pain. And by the way, programming your daughter to accept really crappy behavior from a partner in the future.
[01:10:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Good point.
[01:10:25] Jordan Harbinger: So whatever you do take care of yourself, we're wishing you the best and we're sending you all a big hug from California.
[01:10:32] All right, what's next?
[01:10:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey guys, what are some options for somebody who has an idea for an app or anything in general, but doesn't have the means to make it happen? Is there a way to sell that idea or to make some money off of it? Signed, Cashing in Without Coughing Up.
[01:10:48] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. So, I actually get a version of this question all the time. Smart people come up with cool ideas all the time, even not smart people come up with cool ideas all the time.
[01:10:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.
[01:10:58] Jordan Harbinger: Or at least ideas. And with the tech industry, the way it is, it is exciting to think about creating an app or coming up with a neat idea and making a quick, uh, 10 million bucks or whatever. But I always have the same response, which is the truth of the matter is your ideas or ideas in general, they're just not worth anything. Maybe in Hollywood, they are, Gabe. I know you're in that world.
[01:11:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes and no.
[01:11:19] Jordan Harbinger: Sometimes if the idea's really, really good.
[01:11:21] Gabriel Mizrahi: It has to be amazing. Right.
[01:11:22] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Then maybe somebody will give you a ton of money for a killer idea. But even then the value of the idea is driven by the talent of the person pitching it.
[01:11:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.
[01:11:30] Jordan Harbinger: And the expectation that they can do something with it. They don't pay you for the idea and file it. You got to freaking—
[01:11:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's just like, oh, you wrote this on a napkin at Jerry's Deli. Not going to happen.
[01:11:37] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[01:11:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.
[01:11:38] Jordan Harbinger: So the kid, he was seeing dead people the whole time and the therapist is also a ghost.
[01:11:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.
[01:11:43] Jordan Harbinger: Boom, no, somebody had to write that crap.
[01:11:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: And someone's going to direct it.
[01:11:46] Jordan Harbinger: Right.
[01:11:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: So the idea is wrapped up in the execution.
[01:11:48] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. So in pretty much every field ideas just are not worth anything. What is worth something is execution because ideas are that, well, they're just ideas, right? They don't guarantee the product will be good or that people will actually want to use it or that it'll hit the market at the right time or that the company will make good decisions or that it will respond to competitors the right way or that it'll keep up with changes in the world and so on and so on. And ideas can be, they can be interesting. They can be exciting. They can be promising. But they rarely, if ever are inherently valuable because they only create value when they exist. In order to exist, they have to be executed on and created. And I'd say that that's true even more of apps because an app is only useful when it's an app on your phone that you can download and use it.
[01:12:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.
[01:12:40] Jordan Harbinger: Right? It's it has to exist. So to answer your question, sadly, no, you're not going to be able to sell your ideas almost with certainty I can tell you that. If you want to make money off your ideas, your best bet is to build that idea or at least work on them, take them as far as you can, see where they lead. Executing an idea that shows you if it's actually good. The market, then tests your idea to prove it out. And then while you're doing that, you uncover and solve, hopefully, a ton of problems and other issues along the way. Sometimes you also find out that your ideas they're not possible, or they're not that good, or they can't be done properly with current technology or somebody else did it, but they did it better in a different way. And they changed directions because while they were working, they encountered something or that they got user feedback that changed it. And then you can take those lessons into your next idea or apply it to a new problem or share it with somebody else. And that's how it becomes valuable.
[01:13:37] People think Steve Jobs just like yelled at people until they made an iPhone. That's not how this works. It's just not. Bottom line, the people who achieve things, they're always the doers. They are not, and almost never are just the thinkers. Even philosophers who are, what? 99 percent think and they wrote it down.
[01:13:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.
[01:13:55] Jordan Harbinger: They turned it into something—
[01:13:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: Into a product.
[01:13:56] Jordan Harbinger: —that other people can consume and they turned it into a product or at least they taught it to somebody else—
[01:14:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right, right.
[01:14:01] Jordan Harbinger: —and applied, right? So even people whose job is to think of new ideas, they have to do more than just think of new ideas.
[01:14:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.
[01:14:08] Jordan Harbinger: So if it doesn't work for them, then your idea for an app that does X, Y, Z. It's not worth the napkin that you're thinking about writing it on. Okay. So while I think it's awesome that you have all these ideas, and I definitely encourage you to keep coming up with them, just for the exercise of your brain and creativity, they're just not going to mean much until you build them or you partner with people who can. And then frankly, they don't really need you if you're not doing more after that.
[01:14:33] So I know that might be a letdown, but honestly, making stuff and finding out what actually works, that is much more satisfying long term than just thinking up ideas. And when you actually make stuff, you don't just indulge your thoughts, you actually build new skills, you meet new people, you learn how to build a strong business. It's a lot more valuable than just, you know, "What if there was an app that could tell you what hostiles your friends have stayed at? Would Expedia buy that?" You know, whatever sort of idea you think you might have. Roll up your sleeves, get your hands dirty and dig in. That's my take. Good luck.
[01:15:09] By the way y'all before we go some sad news here. My friend and friend of the show, Anastasia Golovashkina, she sadly passed away this week. Some of you may remember her. She called me a long time ago and emailed me on Feedback Friday, a long, long time ago, because she told me that she had a brain tumor and that she was only going to have a few more years to live. And she wanted me to advise her on how she should spend those years, which actually is an incredible honor and kind of a heavy lift, right? You don't want to get that one wrong.
[01:15:40] And we stayed friends over time. She actually came and visited me and we go carted around San Francisco and did all these fun things. And she always had a great sense of humor about it. She actually called that her Make-A-Wish foundation trip, which is dark, but also, she just had a great sense of humor about the whole thing and a really good attitude about the whole thing. And then I did a show that morning with Malcolm Gladwell, who she met and took photos with and it's her favorite author. So I was just glad to be a part of that. We stayed in touch.
[01:16:06] She got a job with Elizabeth Warren because, of course, everybody wanted her to go travel the world and do all these things that honestly were their wishes of things they wanted to do. And she wanted to make a mark on the world, even if she wasn't going to be part of it in a few short years, which I think is very admirable. So instead of going to Greece and backpacking around Europe, she went to Boston in the winter and told me she had absolutely no regrets because she was spending her final years with her friends and making a difference while she could. And she was and is an inspiration. In her passing away last week, the world truly lost a good one, people. So treasure your friends, treasure your family, and most importantly, treasure your time on this earth because some of us would trade it all for just one more day.
[01:16:51] And call your parents after work, y'all. Let the kids stay up past bedtime with an extra book, hug your best friend, take an extra loop around the block with your dog. You just never know how many more loops around the block you've got. I hope you all got some wisdom from today's show. And I want to thank everyone who wrote in this week and everyone who listened. Thank you so much. We do this show for you.
[01:17:10] Go back and check out Ben Hardy and Robert Greene, if you haven't yet. And of course, I'm booking these great people on the show using my network, using software, systems, and tiny habits. That's how I maintain so many great relationships with so many amazing people. I'm teaching you how to do that in our Six Minute Networking course. And that course is free over on the Thinkific platform at jordanharbinger.com/course. I'm teaching you how to dig that well before you get thirsty and build relationships before you need them. Because if you need them, you're too late to build them and the drills take a few minutes a day, kind of a no-excuses type of thing, jordanharbinger.com/course.
[01:17:44] A link to the show notes for the episode can be email@example.com. Transcripts are in the show notes. Advertisers, deals, discounts, all at jordanharbinger.com/deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. I love hearing from you on every platform. You can also find Gabe on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi or on Instagram at @GabrielMizrahi.
[01:18:07] This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, Josh Ballard, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer. I never was a good lawyer. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on this show. Remember, we rise by lifting others, share the show with those you love. And hey, if you found this episode useful, please share it with somebody else who can use the advice that we gave here today. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show, so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time.
[01:18:43] We've got a trailer of our interview with Moby, iconic musician and producer. This was a super real conversation about creativity, fame, mental health, money, and what really makes people happy and fulfilled. Moby was really open with this one. And even if you're not a fan of the music, I guarantee you will dig this episode.
[01:19:01] Moby: I grew up in arguably the wealthiest town in the United States, Darien, Connecticut, but my mom and I were on food stamps and welfare.
[01:19:10] My first punk rock show was to an audience of one dog. And my first electronic music show was to Miles Davis.
[01:19:16] Jordan Harbinger: "I wanted to stop the show and patiently explain to the movie stars and the beautiful people that they'd made a mistake. They were celebrating me, but I was in nothing. I was a kid from Connecticut to wore secondhand clothes in the front seat of his mom's car while she cried and tried to figure out where she could borrow money to buy groceries. Now, it was 1999. I was an insecure has-been but we kept playing and the celebrities kept dancing and cheering."
[01:19:38] Moby: The weird thing is things started to go wrong when I stopped feeling that way. 1999, I thought that my career had ended.
[01:19:46] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[01:19:47] Moby: My mom had died of cancer. I was battling substance abuse problems. I was battling panic attacks. I lost my record deal and I was making this one last album. And I was like, "Okay, I'll make this album. I'll put it out. I'll move back to Connecticut. I'll get a job teaching philosophy at some community college." And then all of a sudden, the world embraced me. I handled fame and wealth really disastrously. It was so humiliating. I wouldn't trade any of it.
[01:20:20] Jordan Harbinger: For more for Moby, including how he bounced back from a 400-drink-per-month booze habit, check out episode 196 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.
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