What We Discuss with Vanessa Van Edwards:
- How to make a graceful exit with social cues.
- How to nicely interrupt someone with social cues.
- How to introduce someone whose name you don’t remember.
- How to show someone you are (or are not) attracted to them with social cues.
- How to show someone you don’t believe them with social cues.
- And much more…
Like this show? Please leave us a review here — even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!
Language is more than knowing what to say — it’s knowing how to say it whether or not words are being exchanged. And understanding the way people interact on a nonverbal level can make or break communication or cement how we perceive one another — whether positively or negatively.
In this episode, Science of People body language expert and author of Captivate: The Science of Succeeding with People Vanessa Van Edwards gives us a ton of practicals for how we can optimize our verbal and nonverbal communication skills to captivate the attention of others through social cues. Listen, learn, and enjoy!
Please Scroll Down for Featured Resources and Transcript!
Please note that some of the links on this page (books, movies, music, etc.) lead to affiliate programs for which The Jordan Harbinger Show receives compensation. It’s just one of the ways we keep the lights on around here. Thank you for your support!
Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course!
More About This Show
We may think we’re nailing a job interview or acing an introduction to someone new or really hitting it off with someone we find attractive, but if we don’t understand how we’re presenting ourselves through nonverbal social cues — and what others are trying to tell us with theirs — we’re missing a vastly important part of the story and risking deal-breaking misinterpretations as a result.
Thankfully, we have Science of People body language expert and Captivate: The Science of Succeeding with People author Vanessa Van Edwards on deck to share some of the most useful practicals for navigating social situations with expertise grace.
Future Mentions and Graceful Exits
Even if you know how to gracefully enter a conversation and leave a great first impression, tactfully exiting a conversation and leaving a great last impression is just as important. Vanessa offers some great tips to prepare people for an exit. One is asking about the future (“What are you doing this weekend?”) to break them out of thinking in the present tense. Another might be to allude to a follow-up (“Could I get your card?” or “Let’s try to follow up on…”) to indicate things are wrapping up.
Coping with Interrupters
Vanessa has a few strategies for dealing with interrupters — people who won’t let you get a word into the conversation or always feel the need to fill the silence. She offers some nonverbal strategies to help, including “the fish” (opening your mouth as if you are about to say something) or putting your hand up, palm out.
If you slightly open your fingers in this hand up position, it’s generally perceived as being less threatening.
Cooling Down Romantic Advances
Sometimes you might find that you attract a little too much attention, and you want to cool things down before the other person crosses a boundary that could wind both of you up in HR before lunchtime.
Sometimes you might mistakenly convey reciprocal attraction in ways that seem unlikely on the surface. Even just smiling and nodding in reaction to what someone’s saying can be misconstrued to mean more than what you’re trying to convey. And if you happen to be someone who communicates by touching and laughing, these haptics can supercharge the miscommunication further.
When you want to clearly indicate that you’re not romantically attracted to the other person in the conversation, resist the urge to smile, laugh, nod, or touch them. You can still display engagement by a slight tilt of the head without giving the wrong impression.
Listen to this episode in its entirety to learn more about ways we can exit a conversation gracefully and leave a lasting last impression, how we can interrupt a conversation politely, what we can do when we have to introduce someone whose name we’ve forgotten, how to show someone we’re attracted (or not attracted) to them, how to make it clear we don’t believe what someone is saying, and much more.
THANKS, VANESSA VAN EDWARDS!
If you enjoyed this session with Vanessa Van Edwards, let her know by clicking on the link below and sending her a quick shout out at Twitter:
And if you want us to answer your questions on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at firstname.lastname@example.org.
Resources from This Episode:
- Captivate: The Science of Succeeding with People by Vanessa Van Edwards
- Science of People
- Vanessa Van Edwards at Facebook
- Vanessa Van Edwards at Instagram
- Vanessa Van Edwards at YouTube
- Vanessa Van Edwards at Twitter
Transcript for Vanessa Van Edwards | How to Captivate with Social Cues (Episode 30)
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:00:00] A lot of the times I think interrupters interrupt out of fear. They're afraid of silences. They're afraid of being boring and they're afraid of running out of things to say, so in their head they're like constantly actively thinking the next thing and so once they come up with it, they want to ask it or share it right away. But if you say, I have three things, I have two things, or first, second, they will be like, “Oh, I have a break.”
Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:23] Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger as always, I'm here with my producer Jason DeFillippo. On this episode, we're talking with my good friend, Vanessa Van Edwards. It's been a while since I've gotten a chance to speak with her. Flew up to Portland to hang out for a minute and we did a show because that's how we roll and it's also how we justify flying around all over the place to hang out with our friends. Not bad. It's a good time up there. If you're in Portland, you live in a great place. I'm just going to go ahead and throw that out there. If it didn't rain everyday, I'd move there. Today we're talking about how to make a graceful exit with social cues, how to show someone you're not attracted to them with social cues, how to show someone you don't believe them with social cues and how to nicely interrupt someone with social cues in case you haven't put it together,
[00:01:05] this episode largely revolves around social cues. There's a lot more that we discuss in this particular episode because Vanessa Van Edwards is a master – mastress? -- of body language and nonverbal communication, which is one of the reasons we met in the first place and you know, she practices what she preaches. She's a nice lady that Vanessa van Edwards. I'm a big fan. I'm a big fan of her and her content and I'm happy to bring some of that here to you today. Don't forget we have a worksheet for today's episode so you can make sure that you understand everything that Vanessa Van Edwards and I discussed and you can actually apply it. Go figure. That's important too, right? Not just learning through osmosis, learning through doing and occasionally writing stuff in a PDF. Those worksheets’ always in the show notes. The link is in the show notes at JordanHarbinger.com/podcast. Now here's Vanessa Van Edwards.
[00:01:53] Something that I think a lot of people want to know from you especially is how to get away from a conversation, because we've talked a lot about how to start conversations and how to meet people and how to create good nonverbal first impressions and now we want and we'll do more of that on the Jordan Harbinger Show because you and I have unfinished business. Literally. We're going to create like a dozen hours of stuff hopefully up here in Portland where there's perfect environment for getting a lot of work done slash ---
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:02:23] Lots of rain, it makes you really productive.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:02:25] Exactly. Makes you really productive and also makes you just, I mean if there's nothing else going on, you have to work. You got to work. It's not as tempting otherwise, but people want to know how to get out of the situation. We talked about getting into social situations. Let's talk about how to get out of it, because especially for the ladies, I think there's a lot of, “Okay, how do I make it stop?”
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:02:45] Yeah. Okay. So what's so interesting is I accidentally figured out this was a skill because I was teaching first impressions as a skill or like, you know, “Make a grand entrance. Come in and wow them”, right? That's a skill. And then I realized that you could have the most amazing first impression, a really great conversation. But if you don't know how to exit the conversation, it ends so awkward and you're like, “Uuhh..okay, well I'm going to the bathroom.” Right? And then you're like, “I messed up”. Like and then the other skill is leaving a lasting last impression. Okay so these are two skills and they're very different. So here's my favorite process for, I call it a graceful exit.
[00:03:24] Okay. So first is you want to have a cool down. You know how like any workout, you have a warmup, you have the workout and you have a cool down. It's the same thing. In a conversation, the warm up is like that -- initial chitchat, a first impression conversation. And then when you feel that lull, right, like maybe a couple of silences, maybe you have to go to the bathroom, whatever it is, you want to start mentioning verbally, giving them cues that we're sort of wrapping up. There's a couple of ways to do it.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:03:49] So you don't just start packing away slowly?
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:03:52] Like the cool down is like a slow back up.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:03:54] Yeah, a cool down is like, “Is there a table behind me? No, I got 13 feet to go.”
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:03:58] That could work. That could work. It’s as if you're very graceful. And we will talk about nonverbal cues too, but I like the verbal first. So like verbally, future-mentions. So people suddenly get this, you're like, “So what are you up to this weekend? What are you up to later tonight?” Like that future-mention, it gets people out of the present and it can segue into, “Well, that sounds great. I hope you have a great weekend doing X, Y, Z.”
Jordan Harbinger: [00:04:21] Alone.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:04:23] Yes. And without me there. Yes. So a future-mention can be a really nice segue for them to know that that's coming, but also that you're about to then say, “We should invest with that.” The other verbal thing you can do is begin to wrap up what you talked about in the sense of, “Wow, that project sounds super interesting. Well, I'm going to have to reach out to you on LinkedIn. I would love to hear more about that.” Or, “Did you have a card? I would love to see that. I'd love to hear more.” Trading cards -- that is also, “Okay. We're moving towards the end”, and then the other verbal segue is, “So I'm going to follow up with you probably tomorrow or Friday. Does that sound good to you?” And so you're giving yourself a runway for a really easy exit where they can also not be taken by surprise. The worst thing when they're, “Oh wait, what? I wasn't sure we were done yet.” Jordan Harbinger: [00:05:09] Yeah. I noticed that a lot of interactions sort of have this natural fade out, but you don't know if the other person is on the same page. Right. So yes, if I'm talking with you and then I'm like, “All right”, well we're at some conference and someone else comes up and kind of says, “Oh Hey Vanessa.” And then I'm just like, “Ahheeeem.” Right? I’m standing here, because they didn't do that. Or I have to be like, “Hi, I'm Jordan.” And then like forcing my way in there because otherwise I'm standing around or you started engaging with that person and then I'm like, “Oh I guess we're done talking now.” So then I just sort of wander out --
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:05:41] Or stand silently.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:05:42] See you guys later.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:05:43] Yeah. Stand silently or you’re like, “Bye.” And they're like, “Oh no, don't go.” And you're like, “But I was standing here silently frozen.”
Jordan Harbinger: [00:05:48] I'm not participating in the interaction.”
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:05:50] Okay. So this is a side tip, but I actually think it's important. I think it is your responsibility if you are interrupting someone. So if you're the interrupter or if you're the person who knows both people, so it's your responsibility to make a smooth transition. So if you're the interrupter, not only do you have to be like, “Hey Jordan, I haven't seen you forever.” “Oh, I'm so sorry. Did I interrupt? I didn't mean to.” That is actually your responsibility as interrupter or to be a smooth interrupter because it gives them the opportunity to be like, “Oh no worries. Yes, follow up with me on that.” So they can finish up a thought that they might've just had or nor is it all. We were bored out of our minds. So glad you're here, right? It's like, so the interrupter has to do that, ask for permission to enter the conversation. And then if you're the person who knows both Jordan and Danielle, or Jordan and Jen, I would have to say, “Oh my gosh, you have to meet each other. And let's see, in common, I think you guys, I think you guys actually have this in common”, because that otherwise you make everyone awkward. So that's an interesting, that's an entrance cue and it prevents awkward exiting.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:06:48] What happens if you're interrupted by a not polite interrupter? You got to do something about that, right? So the aforementioned, “Oh Hey Vanessa.” And I'm like, “Oh, all right.” My strategy is always to sort of like bowl in a China shop, introduce myself as soon as everyone takes a breath, I'm like, “Oh by the way, I'm Jordan”, and I'm like, “You should feel bad about not introducing yourself.”
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:07:08] I actually like that. And I personally think that's really good because otherwise I hate it. You know this, you've been in a conversation where there’s a group of people and there's a silent person who hasn't been introduced and hasn't said anything and you're like, the elephant becomes like louder and louder and louder and you know why it usually happens? Why I think that usually happens? Someone doesn’t know their name.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:07:30] Oh, for sure. Yeah. Right. This is… dang it. Like you don't want to bring it up.
Vannesa Van Edwards: [00:07:35] But, wait! So what happened is--
Jordan Harbinger: [00:07:36] Who have I been talking to for a half hour?
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:07:37] Like, this is, ugh! This happens to me, too. So, you’re talking to someone, like, let’s say we just met, I didn’t know your name. And then all of a sudden, someone comes up and I’m like, “oh my God, I don't remember this guy's name.” I'm not going to introduce you, because I'm afraid. So then you end up standing there awkwardly. So first, I love the bowl in a China shop of like, “I'm Jordan.”, even if I remember it or not. And if you don't remember someone's name, there are ways you can subtly get around it. This isn't your quite interrupting question, but you can say, so you introduce the other person first. So I could say, “Danielle, meet my new friend.”, “Danielle, tell me about this.” And then, usually, Danielle will ask “what was your name?” Or you can say, “My name is…” So sometimes, you can leave it up to them. I also have a rule with everyone who I'm close with, that if I introduce them first: I do not know the other person's name.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:08:23] That's a cool hidden rule.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:08:24] It is.
Jo rdan Harbinger: [00:08:24] But you need to have it established beforehand.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:08:27] Usually, but not always. Like, for example, my husband is the best at this. He knows this really well, that if he walks up to me and I'm like, “This is my husband, Scott.” He knows, before they even give me a chance to say, “Hi, what's your name?”
Jordan Harbinger: [00:08:37] Nice! Jen, we got to steal it.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:08:40] All of your wing men, all of your wing ladies, they must know that role. Luckily, even if they don't know the role, you can try it and it usually works because you introduce them first and you kind of give them the floor and they go, “Oh, hi, what's your name?” So, like, kind of puts smoothness on that. So, names, really helps. Even if you don't know, but—
Jordan Harbinger: [00:09:01] Right, because no one's ever going to go, “Oh, so what's this person's name?” If they're standing right there.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:09:04] Never. They're never going to do it. They're going to ask the person what's your name? And then you're like—
Jordan Harbinger: [00:09:08] Or they're even more awkward than you forgetting their name. So then you're off the hook.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:09:11] Yeah. Then you're like, “God, weren't they weird?”
Jordan Harbinger: [00:09:13] Wow, who does that?
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:09:15] Also, I'm a big fan of, like, I don't know their name so I’m just going to take a long drink of water. Yeah, and then also when you're drinking water, other people know they have to talk.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:09:23] Right.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:09:24] Right? So you're like, “Hey, this is Danielle!” and you take a big drink of water and they know that it's their turn to say something and they usually will.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:09:33] Just going to take a nice long sip of this.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:09:35] So that happens in an interview. It means, “I don't know what to say. It's your turn to talk.” That’s what that means. You were talking about interrupting?
Jordan Harbinger: [00:09:43] Yes. If you're the smooth interrupter, great. You're supposed to do that. “Oh, excuse me. Hi, my name is this.” You know, rope everyone in. But what happens when someone just plows in: “Hey, Vanessa! I haven't seen you in so long!” because you step back, because you're polite or the other person steps back because they're polite and then I'm just, since I've stepped back, I'm just losing social status like every second that goes by.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:10:03] Yup, that’s true.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:10:05] And I’m not one to be obsessed with social status but it is, at some point, you just feel like, “Okay, I feel like such a Schmoe. I'm furniture now. It's been a minute and a half. No one's talking to me. Am I supposed to just leave now?”
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:10:18] So there's a couple of different ways you can think about this and I actually like to break down really specifically. So first, breaking into a group. Let's talk about a group of people. So, my favorite strategy with a group is if you enter into group that's in a conversation, most likely, you will be sidelined because the group flow doesn't want to be like, “Oh who's this new guy standing around?” So what I like to do is in a group actually sidle up to the one person who has very, very open body language. So, usually, there's one person in the group that like has their shoulder kind of out, like, they don't have a closed circle. They may be kind of looking around, overhead gazing. There, you're in. So I will usually make eye contact with them, sidle up them and say, “Hey, you look like you're having a fun conversation. Can I join?” That way, I'm making this person my introducer.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:11:02] Yeah. They're now responsible because they're not going to go, “No, it's obviously private.” You're in some sort of networking event.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:11:08] Right. And also, usually, they will take a step back, put their arm right and say, “Yeah, come on in.” So the other group knows, “Oh, this person has been accepted.” So I almost always will never cold approach a group because no one knows what to do with you and no one's taking responsibility for you.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:11:24] Yeah, I like this. I've definitely done my fair share of cold approaching groups in a past career. As a guy who cold approaches groups of people, but the trick always, at that point, and this is far less graceful than what you explained, is to find the two people, like you mentioned, if there's one or two that are sort of more open and just sort of place two fingers, one on each of their shoulders and they will naturally turn to face you and they'll open up and let you in. But then you can't just stand there and be like, “Continue.”
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:11:58] “Carry on.”
Jordan Harbinger: [00:11:59] Right. “No, don’t mind me.” You have to do at that point, be like, “Hey, I'm Jordan, by the way. Sorry, I realized I haven't met you guys yet.” And even if there's absolutely no reason why you should have met them already, if you're at an event or any kind of mixer then people will go, “Oh, right on.” Because it's kind of what you're supposed to be doing. So you can just kind of confidently stroll in there. And then, what I've noticed at years of doing this is if you get into a long or extended conversation with one or two of those people, they'll go, “So, how do you know everyone else here?” And you realize at that point they have no idea that you just met everyone. And that's everyone's objection is, “Oh, well, it's going to be weird.” No. Every single person in that circle assumes you knew one or all of the other people in that circle.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:12:41] Yes. And this is the same thing when you make someone be your sponsor; they think that you knew the sponsor.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:12:46] Right.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:12:46] Right, like, whether you did or not, they just go, “Oh yeah, like it's a friend of a friend”, which immediately gives you social proof and immediately gets you in. I also think if you're brave enough to say, “Oh hey, by the way, I'm Vanessa.” Cool. The other way that you can do it as the kind of the warm up, so one thing that everyone loves is when you laugh at their jokes. Everyone loves it. People love when you laugh at jokes, they love “oohs” and “ahhs”, so what I like to do is I might not say like, “Hey, I'm Vanessa, just here.” but I'll make sure that I am demonstrative with my social approval. So, I laugh, I make more eye contact. I, “ooh” and “ahh”, so by the first few seconds of a conversation, you actually are already in the group because people are like, “Oh, she's a laugher. She's a supporter.” They feel like you're already in there. And then what you can, if you really want to is an add in little interjections like, “Oh really? Interesting. Wow.” You're already in the conversation then. Like whether or not, they know your name and then after that you can say, “Oh, by the way, I'm Vanessa, so nice to meet you.”
Jordan Harbinger: [00:13:39] Yeah, that's nice and smooth.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:13:41] There's kind of like the slow warm-up. So I do want to bring up a really interesting kind of interruption that happens a lot. And I have very civic cues for this. I don’t know if anyone watching has an interrupter in their life. So this is someone where you're in a conversation –
Jordan Harbinger: [00:13:53] I'm that person. But yeah, go ahead. Sorry to interrupt you. Continue.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:13:58] You are an interviewer although. Yes. It's your show. You're allowed to interrupt me.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:14:02] I'm like, “Oh, she's getting too much attention. Let me fix that right now.”
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:14:06] Let me add in my really smart anecdote. Okay, so if you have a Jordan in your life, all you have to do, I'm just joking. You're not actually that –
Jordan Harbinger: [00:14:14] Long extended ______.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:14:15] No. So I'm talking about, it's like a really bad interrupter. This is someone who, they'll literally ask you a question and while you are about to launch into it, they just like go into their next question or they go to another story, you know those people, they're rough.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:14:29] This episode is sponsored in part by ZipRecruiter. Every business needs great people. Tell me about it and a better way to find them. So if you're hiring, there's a better way than just posting your job online and praying for the right people to see it in a sea of noise. ZipRecruiter learns what you're looking for and identifies people with the right experience and then invites them to apply to your job. In fact, 80% of employers who post a job on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate through the site in just one day. The right candidates really are out there. ZipRecruiter is how you find them. The problem is there's all this noise when you try to hire somebody. You're trying to get people to jump through these specific tests and hoops and like 80%, 90% don't even respond to those and you're filtering them. You're just going through the general population. It's like a, you know when I say never go to a non-curated networking event where you can just show up. Not using things like ZipRecruiter is the way to basically hire or filter through the worst of the worst people and waste a ton of time. ZipRecruiter will curate and find the right people for you and right now my listeners can try ZipRecruiter for free.
[00:15:32] Just go to ziprecruiter.com/Jordan, that's ziprecruiter.com/Jordan. ZipRecruiter -- Smartest way to hire. This episode is also sponsored by Varidesk. Man, I just got my new Pro Desk 60 Electric standing desk. This thing is built like a tank. I love it so far. I will say though, don't try to assemble this thing yourself unless you are strong as hell. This thing is great. This is a good thing though, right? I mean furniture should not be something you can lift with one hand. I'm just going to throw that out, especially a desk that has your computer on it and all this valuable stuff or you want to lean against it once and not injure yourself tragically. Static offices though they’re a thing of the past, the whole cubicle thing. This is going the way of the dodo unforch or well, unforch for the dodo, fortunate for those of us who sit in cubicles but standing a lot more -- a hell of a lot more in fact. It can improve employee health, boost energy and productivity. And honestly here at Jordan Harbinger and Advanced Human Dynamics, which by the way is the name of the new company, in at Advanced Human Dynamics, we're really big on employee health. Everybody has got a standing desk, everybody's got all kinds of vitamins and supplements and stuff that they're working on. We help people out with diets and nutrition. It's just mandatory. People are more productive when they can actually stay awake all day. They don't need naps, and Varidesk Active workspace solutions make it easy to encourage more movement to any workday, keep people awake, especially yourself and keep you productive. Like I said, this Pro Desk 60, this thing is commercial-grade materials, stable at any height. You can assemble it quickly. You just can't do it alone because you got to lift the darn thing and it is built well. So give it a shot. Learn more at varidesk.com/forbes, that's V A R I D E S K.com/forbes and they'll ship it to you for free and you can return it if you need to, with free shipping on the way back. You can try it free for 30 days -- varidesk.com/forbes.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:17:25] So I have a couple of people in my life, so I have a couple of strategies I thought I would show you that are my favorites for these. Okay? So if you're with someone and they do that to you, one thing you can do verbally to prevent them from interrupting you is what's called bookmarking. So do you know –
Jordan Harbinger: [00:17:40] I've used bookmarks before.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:17:43] This is not like -- this is an emotional bookmark. Okay. So an emotional bookmark is you basically tell how long you need before you start talking. So for example, if you say, “Actually I've lived in three different places”, so someone says, “Where are you from?” “Actually I lived in three different places.” They know they cannot talk until you've gone through all three places. So there's actually two different phases. First, they know that there's a next that's coming.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:18:10] So you're like table of contents-ing your whole sentence. or next few sentences.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:18:14] Yes. And they know this. They mentally prepare. “Ah, I have a few seconds off.” A lot of the times I think interrupters interrupt out of fear. They're afraid of silences, they're afraid of being boring and they're afraid of running out of things to say. So in their head they're like constantly active and thinking the next thing. And so once they come up with it, they want to ask it or share it right away. But if you say, I have three things, I have two things or first, second, they will be like, “Oh, I have a break.” Right? Like this person's going to probably talk for the next 30 seconds. I'm good for 30 seconds. So that's one way to prevent interrupters especially if you have like a boss or a colleague interrupts in meetings. That works really well.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:18:52] What about just the socially unaware interrupter that isn't going, “Oh, there's three things,” they're just going, “What am I going to say next to prove how interesting I am in this conversation?” Everybody knows those people.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:19:05] Oh yeah. So then next level. So we're talking about levels of interruptions. So the first one is bookmarking. Hopefully a sane logical person will say, “Oh, I should wait my turn.” Okay. But let's say if you have someone who has to be escalated. The other thing that you can do, there's three nonverbal cues I am going to teach you. Okay. The first one is called, I call it the fish. So I want you just to just try to guess.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:19:26] The fish. It sounds like you're just wiggling in there. I don't know. Am I close?
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:19:30] No, but that's a good guess though.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:19:36] No, but that’s what fish do.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:19:36] Okay. So you'll get it once I do it. So when you're talking to someone and they interrupt and you open your mouth, we know this is a nonverbal sign of –
Jordan Harbinger: [00:19:45] So it’s like a fish face.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:19:46] Yes. So it's like you can't see me doing that, or even makes that kind of poppy noise. You know? “Oh, she was about to say something or like she was literally mid-breath or mid-sentence.” So someone's interrupting me. I will sometimes be like, and they know that I am holding my mouth open -- that kind of Oh format like a fish. Because I want to say something and it makes them feel rude.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:20:05] Yeah. That's a common technique that I have to use on the show sometimes if I'm interviewing someone live, not you of course, because you're experienced. I wouldn't say never. Yeah. Mostly never.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:20:15] Mostly -- that's honest. Yeah, that's true. Mostly never. I'll take it.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:20:18] But you can also do this with your hands, right? Am I jumping the gun here?
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:20:24] Yeah. You got to like the second one is we are trained as humans to know that this -- our hand up, palm out -- means stop. Right? And so if you will be like, or you put your hand out, so the subtle one is just the hand out, right? Like it's almost like, pause. But if you really want someone to stop, especially like in a larger group, you can actually like almost –
Jordan Harbinger: [00:20:41] It’s almost like you're raising your hand or stop. A gentle way to do this for me as a host is to have that hand out with my fingers open, somehow fingers closed is a little bit more forceful. Fingers open is kind of like I'm reaching for something, but really I'm just reaching for you to stop talking for five seconds or even five milliseconds so then I can interject. because we're trying to keep this conversation on track.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:21:04] It works. It works perfectly in person so you can do, I never heard of that. That's true. Actually I don't know why that worked.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:21:10] I don't know. It's just from testing it, this looks more forceful with my fingers closed than it does [inaudible][00:21:14].
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:21:14] It's like, this is like stop, right? Like if you're really, really hold but like a casual kind of putting your hand is like, just a little pause. So you can also, by the way, if this works for your brand, you can also do the pupil -- just like one second. Just like one second. So it's like just one, that's a lot, like that's top level, like for someone who's really bad at it. Right? Because like what do parents and teachers do to little kids who are talking? “ Shhh!” So we know that this is a sign of like, wait one minute “shhh” or it's not your turn yet.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:21:44] I'm trying to think if this looks, “Oh, it looks like I'm thinking, but it also looks like you might let me in because I'm thinking I always see if something…”
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:21:52] So I just did it also that I was like, I actually didn't have anything to say, but like –
Jordan Harbinger: [00:21:56] Thanks for that interrupting. Oh no, I don't have anything to contribute. I'm just trying to control the conversation.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:22:01] I wanted to show you how it worked in person. So like it somehow if you're like, “Oh aha, Eureka!” It actually looks like you're having the idea, but actually what you're doing is -- Please just wait one second. So those are the kind of like nonverbal things you can do pretty easily. And of course the last absolute last level -- touching them. Right? If I put a hand on your shoulder like you know, it’s my turn.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:22:24] That’s kind of immediate. Yeah. That's something that works really well if you know the person, if you don't know them and they are a guy, you can get away with it, 99% of the time. I would say be careful doing this to women if you're a man, not universally, but it can be a little aggressive if you don't know the person at all and you just suddenly reach out. They might -- not that they would get the wrong idea, but it might just be like, “Whoa, I don't know you.” And some people are highly uncomfortable with this. I've learned that the hard way in the past.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:22:54] I 100% agree. I think that touch is the last level, especially if you're touching the opposite gender – women to men and men to women –- the absolute last level. If you touch someone and they recoil or like stiffen, I actually apologize for that.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:23:10] Yes, definitely.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:23:11] “Look, I’m sorry about that.”
Jordan Harbinger: [00:23:13] Just got excited for a second.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:23:14] Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Because then you're at least saying, “I'm sorry I acknowledge that.” And then you try to like diffuse the awkwardness with like a little bit of humor, right? So totally agree, last level. I'll even take that tip away because if you can't get someone to stop talking with the fish, the finger, and the palm, it sounds funny. Like, yes, I like the fish, the finger and the palm. They're not somebody want to talk to anyway.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:23:38] I think it typically happens in professional situations where you can't get away from them. I mean, if you're in a social situation and you can never talk, this is a person who maybe needs a little bit of a lecture or after the conversation like, “Hey, you know”, and it's better to lecture somebody about somebody else, right? If you have to do that, so if you never let me talk, it’s like, “You never let Jen speak. I noticed that, you know, you never really let Jen speak”, that way, you're sticking up for them. You're not just forcing your agenda on them.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:24:05] Well, I like that one. Like standing up for someone else.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:24:08] Right. Even though you're like, “I know she's too polite to say this, but you never really let Scott talk.”
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:24:13] Oh wow. That's such a good tip because actually like then you're kind of in on it together. You're not criticism about you. You're just like, and also you can be like, “I know that like Scott's a little shy.”
Jordan Harbinger: [00:24:23] Yeah. And I bet you that she doesn't even notice you're doing this, but I feel like, Oh, you know, we should let her come out of her shell a little bit more. It tends to be something that you can get away with as long as the other person's not there. Otherwise you're just throwing them under the bus. “Oh you never let Jen talk.” “No, I'm fine. Shut up.”
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:24:39] But then you get someone who's like, “I just want to apologize to Jen for my rude –“. And they're like, “What?”
Jordan Harbinger: [00:24:43] “What are we talking about?” No that’s fine. No, Jordan said that you were upset that I was always interrupting and I'm like, “Check, please. Got to go.”
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:24:53] You’re fighting your wife's battles. It's good.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:24:55] Yeah. Not that she needs that at all. So how to make a graceful exit with social cues. We talked a little about the future mentions. “Oh, that sounds really great. Have fun with that or that sounds really exciting. I hope you enjoyed that.” And then follow ups. “All right, I'm going to get back to you on LinkedIn or give me your card. I'll make sure I follow up tomorrow.” I want to get a couple of more clear verbal exit strategies. So we already have – “Have a great time with your weekend plans. Here's my business card. I'm going to follow up with you on LinkedIn. I'll be sure to follow up on this. Good luck with your projects.” What other ways can we sort of gracefully slide out of something? Maybe we're not in a business situation so we don't want to follow up or they don't have some projects that we're going to follow up with. We just want to get the hell out of there.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:25:38] Yeah. So when my favorite says like a very soft compliment. So like for example, “Oh my gosh, that story was amazing. Made my night. It was so great talking to you. Thanks for making my night.” That's also like a very like nice way of saying, “You're great. That was a great story you made my night. Great talking to you.” It kind of leads everyone being like, “Ha ha ha!”.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:25:56] It’s all downhill fun here. See you later!
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:25:58] You could literally say that. Do you know what I mean? It'd be like a very funny thing to say. So kind of that compliment of like you were the highlight of my night. It was so good talking to everyone and then everyone kind of looks like going – “Ha, ha, ha!” -- like a jolly one.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:26:08] I'm so entertaining. Why is she gone though? Isn’t that great? Where did she go?
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:26:12] “SShhh!”They'd be like that until later. They don't realize that yet. Yeah. That's one of my favorites.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:26:17] Nice. Okay, good. One that I stole from you is -- I'm going to go say hi to the host. I'll catch you guys in a bit, and you don't have to catch them in a bit. Almost it happens organically and no one's going to be like, “How rude she went to go say hello to the person whose house we’re in? How dare you.”
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:26:32] Exactly. So that's like one of my favorites. Hosts -- fill in host with the boss. And you can also do this with, “Oh my gosh, I see one of my old college friends, I have to go talk to them before they leave”, or like, “it looks like my friends about to leave. I want to say goodbye to her before she leaves.” All of those are very legitimate reasons to go meet someone else. And it gives someone like, “Oh, okay.” Like they had on another purpose. Same with, “I'm going to go refill my glass.” If your glass is on the empty, people actually do usually notice it and they're ready for you to say, “I'm going to get a refill. Do I enjoy it? Or like should we chat later?” So you can also use that as an example, so refilling your glass, going to the bathroom, getting something to eat. I almost always am a grazer at these kinds of things where I can easily refill my plate as opposed to sitting down and having one giant meal. Because it kind of gives you an out, a little bit.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:27:22] I go, “These pizza rolls are really good and they're going fast.”
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:27:25] No joke. Like exactly like, “Yeah, I got to go refill before they all go out.”
Jordan Harbinger: [00:27:29] They have crab rangoon here. So screw you all guys.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:27:31] These pigs in a blanket are to die for. I've used that before. Like not joking at all. So yeah. So I think that those one's compliment and reasons to go.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:27:41] Oh, I love it. Okay, great. And so we have those sort of professional and it’s more personal party excuses to go by.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:27:49] Casual. Right? Like, “You were great. You're so funny.” And people always like to hear they're funny of course. And slash other friends came in. People get also, there's a big influx of people. The mood can sometimes change and people are very open to, Oh like clearly there's new people here, you want to go chat with them.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:28:06] Great. Yeah. Yeah, I dig that a lot. And this sort of dovetails nicely with something we talked about earlier on the Jordan Harbinger Show, which was bringing people to networking events and then it's like, “Oh I met a clinger, how do I get rid of them? And do you have like the wing man strategy? We can go over this stuff in another episode because I feel like you probably have a ton of those strategies as well. Clingers or what do I do with the shy person that I feel bad for because I'm always compelled to sort of, but for the grace of God. Go away, right? This used to be me. How do we show somebody that we are not attracted to them with social cues? I think we can talk about attraction and dating stuff. Maybe even in another show because that's a whole unit. A lot of, especially females who are networking or in professional situations, have a problem because they're going in there talking with people. Especially if say you're a female engineer and everyone around you is a guy you want to maybe draw a hard line, or even if you're just in a mixed crowd, you really don't want to have even that thought in your head that somebody might mistake your intentions is got to be really uncomfortable.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:29:17] Yes. Okay. So first of all, it's worse for both sides. One, you don't want people to think that you're hitting on them. And two, you want to make sure that you're observing someone like, Oh, I want to make sure they're not attracted to me either. So this works with both sides. So there's one first nonverbal cue that is the most, it's not flirtatious, but it is one of the warmest cues that we have. And it is nodding. So especially in Western cultures, in India it's a little bit different, but in Western cultures –
Jordan Harbinger: [00:29:44 ] You have to do this weird sideways nod. I can't even do it.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:29:47] I always think the exception. I always say that out loud because on YouTube, otherwise, all of my followers from India, they're like, “But not in India!” So I know, not India, it's a little different. But in Western cultures, the up and down nod, the vertical nod is “Yes, I agree. I'm listening. I'm with you. I'm here.” Right? The no, not as side to side. So, the more that we are nodding, the more someone feels like they are literally into us. They're into what we're saying. So this is great for professional work. But when you pair nodding with a couple others, kind of flirtatious cues, lots of smiling, extra loud laughing, any kind of physical touch. So “haptics” is the fancy word for touch. And so anytime that we have physical touch, this could be arm touches, this could be shoulder touches, could be hugs, could be cheek kisses. Those add as sort of accelerators for the nod. You get that kind of oxytocin, we get oxytocin from our touch. It's like adding fuel to a question mark of: “Is this person attracted to me? Is this person into me?”
Jordan Harbinger: [00:30:44] Right. Okay.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:30:45] So what I would say is if you're really worried about someone, if you want to make sure that they know that you're not attracted to them is actually nodding less. So having a very, very still head, it's hard to do actually.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:30:56] Yeah. I feel like I naturally am always nodding.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:30:58] Right, and I also as well. So two or three years ago, one of my new year's resolutions was to nod less.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:31:05] How do you even build that practice?
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:31:08] Here's how I think you do it. Is if you think you are a bobble-header, so like “uh huh, uh huh, uh huh”. It's not only very submissive, it’s also can border on, you know, “I'm into you”, depending on what it's paired with, so it's really hard to just stay still. That's really hard. But if you have…
Jordan Harbinger: [00:31:24] I'm holding my face still right now. So it's working. Yeah, it is working. It might look a little awkward because I'm gripping my chin.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:31:30] No, this is called the Hillary Clinton. I'm deepened focus or the figure deep in thought. So actually if you can hold your chin, that actually works. And what I do is I'll do the head tilt. So it's actually, we usually don't nod or head tilting. Right? It's a little awkward. So the moment you head tilt, it still looks like you're engaged. So looks you're listening and that's like exposing your ear, which is listening, but you're not, it doesn't really feel like you have to do the nodding. So if I feel myself even in this interview nodding too much, I'll just slightly tilt my head towards you and that makes me hold it in that position as opposed to nodding.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:31:59] I like that a lot. I found myself nodding when you are nodding because we're doing mirroring stuff because we're good friends and we're on camera in this sort of artificial situation.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:32:07] There's also, have you seen this thing where like if someone goes like this with their hand, the other person like cannot help but nod?
Jordan Harbinger: [00:32:12] I really resisted it right there. I was forcibly not doing it because we're talking about it.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:32:18] Yeah. And so the reason I mentioned that is because if you're a very handsy person, like I talk a lot with my hands and I'm doing this without even realizing I'm doing it, I'll see the entire group will be like, “Hmmm.” And like it was a little cultish. So also be careful if you want to discourage flirtation or attraction to also little calmer with the hands not doing this kind of gesture because automatically makes people be like, “Yes.”
Jordan Harbinger: [00:32:41] And when we say this kind of a gesture, the video is worth watching. It'll be embedded in the show notes, but we're looking at the sort of hurry up winding the clock finger or hand movement where you're doing a, how would you even set up a…
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:32:55] It’s like stirring soup horizontally.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:32:57] That made it more confusing, for sure.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:32:55] No, it didn't. How would you stir soup? Stir it.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:33:02] I mean you would stir it like this.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:33:05] Okay, and I will do it horizontally. That’s it.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:33:09] I mean, if you're holding this, I mean, okay, I'll give you that one. I'll give you that one.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:33:12] Winner, Vanessa!
Jordan Harbinger: [00:33:13] Soup that defies string soup and space because it's not spelling out.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:33:17] Here's stirring soup in space. And there's no gravity. That's what that definitely was.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:33:20] Yes, very useful reference point for most of us. Most of my listeners got. Most of my listeners are spend at least six months to a year in space.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:33:28] You're welcome. Yeah, very good.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:33:31] This episode is sponsored in part by Rocket Mortgage by Quicken Loans, Rocket Mortgage. The company that decided to ask “why”. Why am I filling out a stack of freaking paper? It's 2018 for crying out loud. Why can't clients get approved in minutes rather than weeks? Why isn't this whole thing faster online, digitized? What the heck is going on here? Quicken Loans, a Detroit company. This guy is such an innovative SLB down there. They got Rocket Mortgage. They answer these questions with Rocket Mortgage. Rocket Mortgage is in fact the response to this conundrum. They give you the confidence you need when it comes to buying a home, refinancing your existing home loan, and it's simple. The whole point is you can find the right mortgage for you. Whether you're looking to buy your first home or your 10th, you get this transparent online process that gives you the confidence you need to make an informed decision.
[00:34:16] So you can compare apples to apples here. Rocket Mortgage by Quicken Loans – Apply simply. Understand fully. Mortgage confidently. To get started, go to rocketmortgage.com/forbes, that's rocketmortgage.com/forbes and since Jason is moving to LA, he's in the car right now. He can't be here. So I got to do the legal, equal housing lender licensed in all 50 States. NMLSconsumeraccess.org number 3030. I hope you approved there, Producer Jason. Don't want to step on your toes. This episode is also sponsored by Microsoft Teams. Microsoft Teams is your hub for teamwork in Office 365. I don't understand how people work in isolation when we're here at Advanced Human Dynamics, we've worked together all the time. Sure some people are remote. Most of us in fact are remote, but we just get so many things done with software that keeps us coordinated and Microsoft Teams is that hub for people who work in Office 365. We're always communicating.
[00:35:12] Distributed team doesn't mean that somebody does something and it shows up in somebody else's inbox. If that's the way that you're running your team, you're lacking productivity, I promise you that. We communicate constantly. We've got so many different avenues and channels of communication that are streamlined, maintained well. We have meetings that I know, I know we have meetings, go figure. I know people keep trying to get rid of meetings and it just does not work. You have to have group collaboration teams, simplifies all your work communication into one spot and with so much to look after. You just need one place to look right? You need that single workspace where you can work, share, connect with other people in your work life and teams brings together the chats, the meetings, the files, the apps all into one place and of course they have mobile apps, desktops. You can bring it with you. I know. Isn't it funny? We used to be like, “Oh, I don't want to bring my work with me.” And now we're like, “Yeah, I need to bring this thing everywhere. Microsoft teams in Office 365. Visit office.com/teams to learn more.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:36:10] We show people we're not attracted to them by nodding less, smiling less.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:36:15] Nodding less. Smiling less. So I wanted like, can we like dive into smiling first?
Jordan Harbinger: [00:36:19] Yeah, because I don't want people to be unfriendly.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:36:21] I know. So I really struggle with smiling specifically because on the one hand you're told from a very young age, especially women are told, smile all the time, be friendly, be likable. And so when you first meet someone, you're told to smile, right? Every first impression article ever says smile. And then on the other hand, research is pretty clear that smiling is more of a submissive, nonverbal. Yeah.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:36:46] So you can be friendly and submissive or unfriendly and dominant.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:36:50] Dominant. Right. Now I don't like that choice. I don't think it's that black and white. But I do think it's something to keep in mind. So for example, typically if you're in a room and whenever I am in a room, I always try to cold read the room to slick the best nonverbal practice. See if you can figure out who the bosses, see if you can figure out who has a crush on who. See if you can feel, if you can see alliances. It's a really helpful nonverbal strategy. You'll often notice that more people are smiling towards and at the boss and the boss smiling at no one – typically, not always. And that's because subordinates do, like when I'm with a VIP and like “ha, ha”, like I’m a grinning fool and that's because it's seen as like a nonthreatening, open gesture. So I like smiling upon first impression. I think it's great to have that immediate like warmth. But I really caution being careful for smiling in a conversation unless you genuinely feel it.
[00:37:39] The worst is when you have someone who has that been like maniacal smile on their face. Is that right? Maniacal? Yeah. They're like, “Ah-ha, yeah, tell me no more. Please.” And you're like…
Jordan Harbinger: [00:37:48] And you think they're crazy because they might be crazy.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:37:52] Yes. And so I say to be careful smiling for attraction, but I also say don't hold a smile because you think it makes you more likable because actually that comes across as more inauthentic and more disingenuous when you feel like you should smile. So you're holding this fake smile. We would much rather reserve a smile when you actually think something is funny. When you're sharing a story about something you actually care about, that is a much better way to interact. And it kind of hugs that line. You're not being dominant, right? You're not, not smiling at all. But you're not being totally submissive and passive. So in attraction cues, it's even more important to only hold that smile for when you really mean it. And for women especially, don't give the guilty laugh.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:38:31] The guilty laugh.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:38:32] Yeah. So the guilty laugh is when a man or a woman tells a joke or says something that they think should deserve a laugh, but you don't really think it's funny. So you laugh guiltily. Have you seen this before?
Jordan Harbinger: [00:38:44] I'm sure I've done it before too.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:38:46] Yeah, and I cannot feel myself doing it and this takes a little bit of practice getting out of, but try to notice yourself doing it. So often, I find that often happens when people make the same joke I've heard a million times before. Like for example, I'm from Portland, Oregon. And so without a doubt, if I'm at a conference and I'm like, “Oh, I'm from Portland”, someone maybe one out of every 20 times will go, “Oh, the land of the hippies.” Oh. And I have a choice in that moment. I can just look at them like I'm annoyed or I could not agree with or I can be like, “uh..ha ha ha!” Oh, they're terrible. Both are terrible. And so that's an example of, and if you have a name that does this, like some people have names that always have the same joke.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:39:31] Like Sharona. Is that anyone's name though? Probably not. It's a good name to have a bad joke. Like Sharona but I don't think, that's probably not anyone's name.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:39:42] Have you ever met a Sharona?
Jordan Harbinger: [00:39:44] No, nevermind. It was a terrible example.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:39:46] If there's a Sharona out there, I am sure that she has to guilty laugh all the time. But there's other names that this happens with like movie character, TV character names where someone's like, “Oh, like Katniss from Hunger Games”.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:39:58] Right. Kirk. If your name is Kirk, you got Star Trek.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:40:01] Yeah, or like my husband's name is Scott and if someone says Scotty, people are always like, “Beam me up, Scotty.”
Jordan Harbinger: [00:40:06] Oh gosh! Wow! That never gets old.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:40:10] Exactly. So what I would say is if you really want to make sure that people are not mistaking you from attraction and on bad dates, people are laughing, fake or not. It's just the way they build likeability.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:40:20] Or break awkward tension, right? Because the laughter sort of processes any kind of tension. It's like a massage in social interaction.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:40:28] Right. Lubricant. Yeah. It's like lubricant makes everything go smoother. So in a situation where you're worried I'm sending off the wrong cues or I don't think I'm attractive, I would actually just maybe lightly smile or verbally acknowledge the joke. So instead of, so they say, “Oh well the land of the hippies, like a marijuana, ha ha ha!” Whatever they say, instead of me being like, “Ah, ha ha ha”, which is allowing some kind of traction, I can say, “You know, actually I –“ whatever my answer is, and verbally answer the question as opposed to acknowledging it as a joke.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:40:59] Oh wow. So you can just take all of the wind out of that one.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:41:02] You can take all the wind out of it or you can so sometimes what I'll say is, “I'm actually a recovering Californian”, so I counter it with another kind of soft jokes. I don't fake laugh. And they go, “Oh really? California?” And I'm like, “Yeah, so technically in Oregon, I'm the stuck-up one.” And then when we're in a conversation that actually is more interesting, I didn't have to fake laughs. That's usually what I say is, “Oh, actually I'm a recovering Californian.”
Jordan Harbinger: [00:41:24] Yeah. It moves things forward instead of just throwing the ball back to them.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:41:27] And it keeps it professional.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:41:29] Right. “Oh, she thinks I'm funny. Let me keep doing it”.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:41:31] And that's what happens. If you fake laugh, they'll keep throwing out those really silly, corny jokes and then all of a sudden you're like, “Are we flirting? Like what?”
Jordan Harbinger: [00:41:38] Like I'm an unwilling participant in this flirting.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:41:40] I do not want this, and then all of a sudden when you want to leave, they're like shocked. Right.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:41:44] Right. She's into me. She laughed at everything I said.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:41:47] So do not guilty laugh. [inaudible] you take it verbally.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:41:50] And a lot of guys do this with people that are of higher social status or perceived status. It doesn't resolve normally in an attraction kind of thing, but it really makes you, it cements you as the submissive one in the interaction.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:42:03] Yes, I will say like I am, I've been around, what might I consider VIPs, [inaudible]. I love like, I joke in my book that I'm obsessed with Dan Arielli. Dan knows this story by the way. I met him for the first time and was a total giggling teenager just because like he's like my favorite scientist here and writer and so I couldn't even help that. But being more aware of that, that's our instinct to do it and it's totally a submissive gesture at least helps you be like okay I don't want to go that way. I'd much rather have good verbal responses and VIP is don't actually like that or they don't want you to make those kinds of –
Jordan Harbinger: [00:42:36] Right. It makes sense. The whole situation more awkward and sort of reminds them like “Hey we're not treating you like a normal person.”
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:42:43] Exactly. And you're not someone that I could even be friends with. You forget dating.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:42:47] You've written yourself out of the available pool of peers. Yes. Which you don't want to do because normally you want to, in theory you want to be at the same level as that person or try to get near it.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:43:00] We should have a whole episode on VIPs because I have a very, I think in business now, like if you want to really meet people and make good connections with them, it's not just like, “Oh, I met her once or I met him once”, so we could talk a lot about VIP and how to approach VIPs.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:43:14] Yeah, you're right. There is a delicate science to this because and I'm not throwing myself in the VIP pool, but to some people who are fans of the show they might be doing that. You’re right. This is a whole show. There's people who try to be like, “I'm going to treat Jordan like an equal”, and they say things that are like borderline offensive. And they're trying to be like, “We're buddies, so I'm going to make fun of Jordan in front of all these people.” And I'm like, “Dude, I don't know you.”
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:43:41] Yes. That happens to me all the time. I have had so negging, I don't know if you're familiar with that.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:43:47] I remember it from the like pickup days where you're like, “Oh, that lipstick looks really good on you. I think my grandma has that color.”
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:43:54] Yes, exactly. Or like an egg that I get often is, “Oh, you're nicer looking than your picture.”
Jordan Harbinger: [00:44:00] Wow, that's super rude.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:44:02] I'm like, “Thanks”. Or someone once told me, “Oh, you're nicer than –“
Jordan Harbinger: [00:44:06] Like you're not nicer looking than your picture. Your picture is way better than…
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:44:08] That. If someone wants me to be nicer than I look, or I'm not as bitchy as I look. I'm like, “Thanks for that.” And I do have RBS, I have resting bitch face. So anyway –
Jordan Harbinger: [00:44:19] I've never seen that on you for the record. Maybe it's because you're always happy to see me.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:44:23] Thank you. It's true. And so like that is a neg that I get a lot and I think that that's exactly, I get it from those kinds of people, people who want to be like friends, but we're not friends that like my friends would never say that to me. Yeah.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:44:33] No, that's a good point. It's an attempt to be like, “We're going to be bro-ey with Jordan.” And I'm like, “My friends don't say mean shit to me.” They just don't, we just don't do that to each other unless we deserve it. But you wouldn't know that because we're not friends. Right?
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:44:47] I wonder if men sometimes I see like they like are very physical with each other. Like I'll see like men who don't even know each other that well, like shake their shoulders or like punch each other on that shoulder. And I'm like, “Why would you do that?” Does that happen?
Jordan Harbinger: [00:45:00] It does. Especially with immature guys or like people who relate on, let me think about this. It's an immaturity thing because I used to do it a lot when I was more shy and awkward because if I didn't know what to say, I'd be like bam. And some people will be like, “Why did you just hit me really hard?” And I was like, “I don't know, guys do this on TV and I don't know what to do with myself.” Right? Those high schools. But I also noticed there is this physical dominance thing that happens with guys and they'll be like, “Oh man!” And they'll like, and I don't even want to do this to you because it's so awkward, they’ll put that your neck in the crooked the arm and drag you in almost like a headlock. Nobody should do this to a female by the way. It is way too aggressive, but guys will do that to each other and I'm like, “I don't know you. You are literally attacking me and I'm freaking out right now”.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:45:45] That's what I've seen and I have not seen it done with actual guy friends. I usually see it done with some kind of a different tribe where I'm like, “Ooh, that sucks.” So don't do that. Don't do that.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:45:54] No headlocks. No like, and if you grab someone on the shoulder you really have to know them well enough. Like if I do this, this is fine, we're friends, but if I'm like gripping you and shaking you back and forth, again, I would never do that with a female. I would only do that to a guy I've known for a long time and I'm really happy to see them.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:46:14] So essentially a good point. So what you should never do nonverbally I think is also pats. So like patting is like a very submissive, it's like “I'm dominant to you”. So have you ever seen this happen before? But like even like the kind of like kind of pat on the shoulder like “Yeah, you're fine, little one.”
Jordan Harbinger: [00:46:30] That's incredibly awkward, it's [inaudible] demonstration.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:46:33] I've seen actually bosses do it to employees and I think they do it well-meaning I think like, “I'm acknowledging you non-verbally. Good job.” But actually it's very much like an owner and a dog. Never do the pat -- ever, ever, ever.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:46:45] So what is acceptable then? We've basically ruled out almost every single kind of physical touch. Basically just don't even look at people.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:46:53] Mirror touch. My favorite is mirror touch. So mirroring is its own very delicate science because I hate when body language experts are like, “Oh, if they're sitting like this then –“ . It's so awkward and like it's so rarely done right. But I do like the idea of bids. So Dr. John Gottman is a researcher or marriage and family counselor and he has this idea of bids that couples, especially that everyone, okay. You offer or request for a bid. So I might say to my husband, “How do I look?” That's a bid for affection, for reciprocation for acknowledgement. He can say, “You look great, honey.” That's a received bid.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:47:34] And he say, “Not as bitchy as you do on the cover of your book.”
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:47:37] Yeah. Seeing the “ding ding cha”. That's not how that, no, but I'm pumped.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:47:42] Yes, want the “ding ding cha”? That is the Chinese equivalent.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:47:47] I do speak a little Mandarin. So that's what that came from earlier today. Okay. Yeah. So he knows that's a bid or a request. This happens in friendships and relationships all the time. Or even networking, right? Where someone can say, you know, a question or they make eye contact or they make a nonverbal bid.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:48:03] Every time we do an interview, something funny happens and I can't stop laughing.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:48:07] [inaudible]
Jordan Harbinger: [00:48:09] Yeah, still going on that one.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:48:11] Cha means tea, it’s special kind of tea in Chinese. The ding ding.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:48:15] Yes. And I appreciate you trying to get my brain back into a logical mode so I can stop laughing and continue the conversation.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:48:21] It's okay. You can always laugh.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:48:23] All right, so bids.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:48:24] So bids. So I think bids happen all the time. We should be better at recognizing them. And this is something that I preach and teach a lot, which is any small bid that's offered should be taken with gratitude and held and received. So for example, if someone does this to you when they're talking, like that's actually a bid.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:48:40] So reaching out and touching my arm.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:48:42] Yeah, reaching out, touching an arm. Or you know, putting an arm on the back or even like, you know, putting an arm on a hand if like you're talking, women will do this. Can you do this with me? Just so -- if you hold up both of your hands like let's say that you're holding your glass, we’re not working. Women will sometimes do this where you just shared something really personal with me and I'll hold both your hand. Go, “Oh, I'm so sorry.” Or “Oh, I know this.” It's almost the way of having a hand hug.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:49:07] And I like that. And if you're wondering what we're doing, watch the video embedded in the show notes.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:49:10] It's really good.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:49:11] It's a hand hug. You can't get that anywhere else.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:49:14] Here's another handhug, you want to see it? That's a hand tuck. That's a hand tuck.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:49:18] I wasn’t totally sure what to do there.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:49:21] Keep your hand straight and then put your thumb like that.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:49:23] That's a tiny little handhug.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:49:25] Okay. So that is any time someone reaches out and touches, it is a bid for connection, for affection and I like mirroring that bid with a reciprocal touch. So either you can touch the hand that they touched you with. So if they put their hand on your shoulder, you then like tap my hand. “Ah-ha, yes”, that's the way you receive it or you can then later or immediately then also reach out and give him that touch back. So I try to only do touch or haptics as reciprocal bids is a way of saying, “I feel you, I hear you. We're on the same page.”
Jordan Harbinger: [00:49:58] So how do we know who starts then if we're only reciprocating touch?
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:50:02] This is a personal rule of mine. I try not to be the first to break the touch out of respect for people who don't like touch. I have been burned one out of every 30 times. I used to touch, you know, first. And you'll get someone who really doesn't like it and it's really awkward.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:50:18] Really? I feel like I've just been mostly oblivious of that and, or I probably, you know what, no, that's not entirely true. I have done that a lot. And when someone recoils, I usually start marginalizing them in the conversation. So if I'm talking with three or four people and I touch the person next to me and they're uncomfortable with it, I will immediately start talking with other people on the interaction
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:50:41] You punish them.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:50:43] Yeah. I basically punish them for it.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:50:45] You take their bid and you throw it on the floor and you step on it.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:50:46] I'm like, “Look, you're rejecting my touch? You are shunned.”
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:50:49] That's option one. I'll tell you the moment I decided I am never doing this again, there was a moment, I don't think I have shared this before. So I was pitching a television show at a major network, this is when I was living in Los Angeles and it was a major, major meeting and a big network that you've heard of before. And the booking executive, we had this great meeting at the end of the meeting. It was a long meeting was like an hour and I was talking about very personal things and so were they and what they wanted and it went really well and he reaches to say goodbye and it was one of those moments where I didn't know if he was going for a handshake or a hug and I felt the meeting went really well. So I said, “Oh I'm a hugger.” And he goes, ‘Well I'm not.”
Jordan Harbinger: [00:51:30] Oh ouch. He just like spiked your bid.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:51:34] You know what, and he then stood there limply while [00:51:39][inaudible]. And I didn't get the show and I had no idea that I need to do with it, but I swear it did. I swear I left the worst last impression and I was like sweating afterwards. I felt so bad and from that moment on I was like, “I am never first touching. I'm always making sure that I respect it.” Because like maybe he have like some people have trauma. I mean it was rough. And so I thought to myself, you know what, for anyone who has having a trauma, I'm always going to respect them and let them touch first.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:52:10] I'm surprised, but he said, “I'm not”, and then you just hugged him and –
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:52:12] I was already here. I was already, I was like, okay, so put your hand. And I was like, “Oh, I'm a hugger.” That's where it was. We were like already –
Jordan Harbinger: [00:52:22] You are assaulting me.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:52:23] Yeah. That's what it was. And I was literally hugging him. Well, he likes limply suited my arms.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:52:29] I feel the creepy crawlies on my back.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:52:32] It was horrible. And so that's why I say my advice is to try to wait, if you can, but if you're very, very touchy person and that's how you interact with someone, it could be actually going back to your option one. Maybe that's the way that you can test people out.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:52:46] Yeah, sure. Although I will say in professional settings, touch far, far less than in personal settings. Because in personal settings I can always go, “Whoa, I've made that person really uncomfortable.” There are virtually no consequences as a result, but if you're closing a real estate deal and you hug someone and they're like, “Wow, that was incredibly awkward”, now well, congratulations on you meeting your new boss and totally –
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:53:06] Exactly. Or me not getting until in the middle of his shift. Right, because I hugged someone wrong.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:53:09] Yeah. Well, I guess you’re going to have to go crush it on YouTube, which screw you NBC or whoever that was.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:53:18] It wasn't NBC. Why are you looking at me? I'll tell you what it was.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:53:20] Yeah, yeah. No, I'm like ---
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:53:23] It's a three letter.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:53:25] Oh that narrows it down. Yeah, I got it. Vanessa, thank you so much. We have hours of this stuff. We're going to do a lot more because every single thing, I feel like we create together is gold. I was going to say magical, but then I thought it's –
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:53:39] The ding ding cha.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:53:40] The ding ding cha.
Vanessa Van Edwards: [00:53:45] I got some special tea for sale at jordanharbinger.com and scienceofpeople.com. Thank you.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:53:53] Thank you. All right. I'm always a big fan of these. Get to hang out with a friend and you get to create some great stuff for the Jordan Harbinger Show listener family. Great big thank you to Vanessa. Her book by the way, is called Captivate. You've heard me talk about it before. I highly recommend going and grabbing that one. She just, she really just knows this stuff upside down. We're going to have a lot more from her. Of course. How could we not? If you enjoyed this one, don't forget to thank Vanessa on Twitter. That'll be linked up in the show notes for the episode at JordanHarbinger.com/podcast. Tweet at me your number one takeaway here from Vanessa Van Edwards. I'm @JordanHarbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. Man, I wish I'd started doing the Instagram earlier. I just started it and man, it's just everyone is on there and it's fun.
[00:54:33] It is fun. I never thought I would be taking pictures of stuff, but now that they allow videos, I can goof around on there. So be forewarned. There's a lot of content on there that I put out, but there's also a lot of stuff that you know, if you don't, if you're in it for the content and you don't like my personality, I don't know why you listen to the show, but you're going to get a heavy dose of that on my Instagram. So, if you're just in it for the worksheets, stick to that. And speaking of which, those worksheets are always in the show notes. JordanHarbinger.com/podcast. This episode is produced and edited by Jason DeFillippo. Show notes are by Robert Fogarty. Booking, back office, last minute miracles and flight accommodations to Portland by Jen Harbinger. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger.
[00:55:13] Alright, review us in iTunes. Throw us a nice written review if you would. We're getting some flack in there. Some people don't believe our reviews are real. Can you believe that? You people aren't real, I didn't even know that. Seem real to me. Make sure you have a unique nickname when you post a review because otherwise it won't post. And it also won't tell you why. Thanks Apple. You go ahead and throw some extra words in there or something, or a couple of numbers. You know, maybe that's why people don't think it's real from John Smith47274735. That doesn't look real to me either. I get it. Instructions on leaving a review though, of course, JordanHarbinger.com/subscribe. We're making it as easy as possible. Share the show with those you love, and even those you don't. Got a lot more like this in the pipeline. We're excited to bring it to you. And in the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen and we'll see you next time.
Sign up to receive email updates
Enter your name and email address below and I'll send you periodic updates about the podcast.